WW ended EA 4 mos ago; trying to restore intimacy

[DonH]

"To kiss her like that, thinking it was invitation when in fact it was a test... hurts. Now, our MC has told us we are going to have to be deliberate, and kind of test the waters like that but... the way my W did it definitely left a bad taste in my mouth."

I really don't know if my advice is a good idea or not. Perhaps sandi can comment as I far more trust her advice on somethung like this than my own. However I think you should tell W this. Tell her how you feel about what she did. Tell her how she hurt you. I'd also make the comment that if she's not going to try, only test you that thus us not going to work. I would not wyne about it or cry or complain, just say it, say, I just thought you should know and move on or walk away. I'd put it on her and move off of it. I think she's being allowed to get away with too much Crap here. If Sandinista right and she's just trying to get through Christmas and if you are right in that she was trying harder when she thought you might leave, letting her know you are getting back to that point might be your only chance. Otherwise she very well may BD again in January.

[hoosjim]

I will be tickled pink if I'm wrong.......but I think she is trying to get through Christmas, and then she'll BD you.....or just replay her old actions (benefit from the M, but live as a single). Either way, she seems to be setting the tone.

Sandi, you make a very convincing case... I hope you are wrong.

At this point not sure what I can do. I had planned on bringing up the troubling shopping trip during Wednesday's session, and also questioning her commitment in general. She had taken down the flower photo off of FB shortly after she finally appeared to start coming to her senses and start working on us, but i never thought to ask her if she deleted the photo from FB and phone archives. I'd been going to mention that, too... hoping to start the convo with MC again about affair addictiveness and recovery. I still have suspicions about those two items of jewelry but right now that's all they are, and not even any concrete reasons to suspect she is contacting OM... and not sure how I would find out.

Sooo... other than tightening up on what i will "accept" from her crap-wise (and I think both the shopping and the kiss qualify, as would retention of the FB photo if she still has it) not sure what i can really do to force the action. I could, i suppose, insist that if we are to continue with this that she MUST follow the professional advice we are receiving (i.e. she has to go to IC), otherwise "I won't waste my time."

I could also always force the issue of her R with bff... Saying "look, W, I just don't know how this is going to work with you and bff being so close under the circs. She's the one who broke trust with me as a friend, so I am the aggrieved party here, but I've heard nothing from her, no olive branch or explanation or anything, and last I heard she was effectively lobbying against our marriage. I'm not willing to continue trying to work on our MR under those circumstances... unless i can be certain she is supporting us in our efforts, you need to stop hanging out with her." But that seems kind of thin and possibly even controlling on my part. But otherwise i don't see what i can do at this point but tighten up as described above, take the lead on the MC, and await developments.

What do you think about DonH's suggestion above about discussing the kiss (which i could also possibly bring up in the MC session wednesday). That doesn't sound like "apologizing for kissing her"... more like asking her "are YOU sorry I kissed you." I do get what he's saying... if she is really "trying" she shouldn't be "testing". She should be committed to exploring the intimate connection "in the moment" without judging it, yes? What do you think?

[hoosjim]

Tell her how you feel about what she did. Tell her how she hurt you. I'd also make the comment that if she's not going to try, only test you that thus us not going to work. I would not wyne about it or cry or complain, just say it, say, I just thought you should know and move on or walk away. I'd put it on her and move off of it.

DonH, this sounds like a good course of action to me. I have asked Sandi2 to weigh in, too, especially since we seem to be drifting back into WW waters.

Otherwise she very well may BD again in January.

Sandi and Don-- she's not going to BD. She's too afraid of losing/alienating the kids and/or looking bad. Unless she just goes full-on "i don't care who I hurt wayward" which, so far, she has not done. Every time she has stepped to that edge she has stepped back. If I hadn't uncovered what I uncovered last January, I might never have found out until she actually did drop the bomb. No, if she goes back to OM, it will be in the deepest secrecy she can manage... if i had to guess I would say on an overnight "girls weekend" where she could ditch car and phone and not be tracked. Either that or a meetup at a distant venue where I am unlikely to show up at so she can take her phone and still meet OM there. She's not going to openly BD, though... I'll have to find out on my own.

[sandi2]

I agree with Don's suggestion.

This started getting immediately noticeable when she had her weekend with BFF. It was very difficult for you to see her leave, b/c you knew the negative influence of BFF. I actually believe it will come down to her choosing between her MR and BFF. OM may not even be in the picture right now, but there will be someone soon, if she plays like a single girl.

When I said she'll give you the BD, I didn't mean she will try to leave the home or ask for a D. It will just be her way of telling you she is through working on the M, and doesn't want to continue MC. She enjoys hanging out with you, and your friendship. She may even want separate bedrooms. If she tells you this, then she may feel bolder in living a GGW lifestyle. One son is in college, the other one is right behind him.......so, it won't be too difficult for her to do whatever she wants without them seeing her as bad. And, she benefits from certain advantages or luxuries of being legally M, without responsibilities.

If your W should ease off into a separate bedroom, then WON she says the words.......she is instigating in-house S. I am not in favor of IHS, but this is not my life.....it is yours.

I really don't know what more you can do, Jim. If you have another MC session scheduled.....and if she attends, I would definitely approach those topics you named. If you could have a private phone session with MC to catch her up to speed, that would save time in the face to face session.

Some people would advise you to just hang in there and continue being the best man and father you can be. If that is your decision, and you can live happily as roommates, I'm sure you will still receive support, and perhaps the MC would benefit you alone (IC).

It's strange how we can feel about people we've never met. It upsets me to see what she's doing. You may remember that I said she might contact, OM once more (during her withdrawal period). Well, I think she has......or else......BFF's influence is seducing her back into waywardness. Mix the influence and her other signs of hanging on to OM, with her unrealistic fantasy, tells me that she was not through the withdrawals and wasn't strong enough to have a "friend" constantly beckoning her into the thrilling life of a free spirit. Little things that are coming to the surface, like not wearing her ring and keeping photo of OM's roses on FB, etc., suggests she never let go. She can't fully commit to a MR if she doesn't let go of her OM.

When is MC scheduled? See how that goes, her response, etc. In the meantime, don't roll over and play dead......don't continue taking her out showing her a good time, or staying home to oversee things. After her little talk about regretting that she ever got M, I think you need to step back. Pick up your GAL. You are a good man, Jim. A man of value. Her words sound as if she wants to throw you in the trash and be on her merry way. It's wayward script, for the most part.

((hugs))

[Ginger1]

I agree with all of the above.

The focus has been on keeping her away from OM and BFF. But your true needs and feelings have been avoided when you look outside of her ending it from OM. Where do the two of you go from the A being over?

Why do you think she ended the A? I think you really need to think on this one.

What she did to you with that kiss was very messed up IMHO. And you have every right to be hurt, because it was hurtful and inconsiderate of your feelings. I think how that made you feel should certainly be addressed.

You also rationalize her behavior a lot. Something doesn't sit well with you, we agree it shouldn't, then you make excuses for it and pretend like it isn't that bad.

Honor your feelings.

[sandi2]

You also rationalize her behavior a lot. Something doesn't sit well with you, we agree it shouldn't, then you make excuses for it and pretend like it isn't that bad.

I think Ginger is right. Sometimes, you are explaining the situation more clearly, but other times, I feel I can respond with an entire page to a request for input, only for you to come back and rationalize what she did. I mean, if we have it wrong, tell us.......but I agree that you seem to rationalize a lot of what she does. Maybe that is your coping technique, IDK, but at times it's almost as if you just can't bear to see it for what it is.

Anyway, I'm kind of glad it wasn't just me who sees it.

[Coconut]

not sure what i can really do to force the action.

I could, i suppose, insist that if we are to continue with this that she MUST follow the professional advice we are receiving

I could also always force the issue of her R with bff...

unless i can be certain she is supporting us in our efforts, you need to stop hanging out with her. But that seems kind of thin and possibly even controlling on my part.

But otherwise i don't see what i can do at this point but tighten up as described above, take the lead on the MC, and await developments.

I'm surprised that no one has ever addressed the fact that you treat your wife like a kid. She isn't, Marriage isn't about one person teaching the other person how to be a spouse (as you teach a kid to be an adult), it's about two adults wanting to share their lives with each other.

If, when, she wants to be with you, she will consider your feelings regarding BFF and SHE WILL decide what she wants to do about that, you don't get to decide for her. YOU get to decide if you want to be with the person she is, she gets to decide who she is.

I think you completely dismissed the suggestions that you should live your life and stop trying to control your W.

You say that it wouldn't be "right" for you to go out and have a good time if she's intentionally not going out. I ask you why? She had the A, she has to work on herself, and if that requires her not going out to not Stray (because she wants to commit), that's great for her. That does not dictate that you aren't able to go out and enjoy your life, you staying home JUST so that she won't go out is controlling, and not healthy.

[hoosjim]

Sandi, Ginger, Coconut, thanks. You folks are some of the more frequent posters to my threads, and the feedback I have gotten over the last few days on this current thread, particularly the last couple of pages, has been some of the most insightful and helpful, particularly in terms of being illustrated/explained/etc. that I think I have gotten on these forums.

(Sandi):I agree that you seem to rationalize a lot of what she does.

I think I do this to an extent. And when I am truly rationalizing away things she does I think it is because I see differences or nuances that I think others might perceive, and I want to try to "work" or emphasize these. I am a very analytical person by nature, and part of my job, and my ability to do it well, has always been to analyze similarities and differences, to distinguish things that can be distinguished even on the smallest basis. In my W's case, I honestly think she is, as Sandi says, a "WW". However, while there are patterns, no two people are exactly alike, and I see differences in her-- a softening here or there, an unwillingness to turn her back on her kids, etc., that suggest to me she is not beyond hope. That does not mean, however, that I will necessarily be willing to countenance what she does or turn a blind eye. Maybe it is a way to give myself hope. Idunno. She's definitely "lost" right now in some ways, and It's really hit home the past few days that she is still not in a place that is conducive to piecing our MR back together.

Another reason, though, that I think I come across as rationalizing is that I am, again somewhat as a result of training and professional exposure (as well as just my own personal bent) a stickler for facts. I hate fuzzy renditions of the facts (one reason I pretty much stay completely clear of politics these days, lol). When I see someone cite to a fact that it is not pretty much "dead on b**ls accurate" my natural inclination is to correct it. Sometimes that means I'll disagree with the ultimate conclusion the poster reached, sometimes not. Example: Sandi2 made 2 statements above in one of her responses that on some days I would have "corrected" as not being completely accurate: one that my W said she "Wishes she'd never gotten married" and second that she still had pictures posted on FB of flowers from OM. I didn't correct either because I am really trying to be more "message" focused and I don't think that changing those two facts would at all change the very valuable insights being provided to me. (And I am trying to look deeper without knee-jerk refuting something-- for instance it's very possible that Sandi just took the necessary implication of my W's statement that she sometimes wished she had run off to join the Peace Corps to be that she wishes she'd never gotten married.) FWIW on the picture, since I brought it up, she took that down the day after we started "working" about four months back, pretty much confirming that they'd been from OM-- my recent ruminations on this merely wondered if that picture was still in her archives or had been deleted-- I don't know one way or the other. But, in either case, there's no difference to the value of the message.

IOW, I am trying to read more broadly and look for the value in all posts rather than nit-picking each fact.

(Coconut): YOU get to decide if you want to be with the person she is, she gets to decide who she is.

This is particularly well-stated, and there are some things that I am now thinking about (the kiss incident in particular, as well as continued association with bff) that make me wonder if I actually do want to continue to be with her. I think THAT is some of the emptiness and hurt I have felt since Friday night... the realization that, though I loved her once more than I can describe, and still do love her, that maybe she is no longer a person who I would want to spend the rest of my life with. And that makes me very, very sad, because she was such a good, sweet person, and still is, I think, deep down inside... but she could turn either way at this point, to dark (selfishness) or light (the person she was.) I don't know which way it's going to go, but now I may be in the weird position of stepping back, maybe even cutting the cord without her having even (AFAIK) resumed any contact with the OM.

On other things, the three of you (and others, obviously) will have different takes. As recently as a week or two ago, when things were actually looking much better, I actually still had some posters that seemed to practically be calling for me to put her out in the street or the like... which wasn't warranted.

Right now, going to see what my MC has to say. She has preached patience and deliberate restoration of touch and intimacy... but things are a little different now. I talk to her (she is also serving as IC for me) this afternoon.

Thanks again.

[doodler]

Right now, going to see what my MC has to say. She has preached patience and deliberate restoration of touch and intimacy... but things are a little different now. I talk to her (she is also serving as IC for me) this afternoon.

hoosjim,

My MC/IC was the best. She was kind of a mix of Sandi and Jesus (without the wanker). But, I'd always forget to take $20 cash for the co-payment and she didn't take credit cards. I still owe her $20 from my last visit. I'll have to stop by to say hi and pay the co-payment.

The moral of the story is, don't forget your co-payment. (I give sh*tty advice so that's the best I can do.)

[AnotherStander]

I am not snooping on her, but have "spot checked" her a couple of times based largely on Sandi2s suggestions. Call it "intel gathering" or "research" as I think that that is more apt.

You're snooping on her. Quit trying to blow smoke up my butt, I've been around here long enough to know what snooping is If you think it's helping you in some way than carry on, but it almost always does more harm than good. If you find something then you'll be upset. If you don't find something then you worry that she's gone even deeper and you need to snoop deeper. It's a no-win situation.

That is not what happened, however. I took her back, she committed to ending things with OM (which she has apparently upheld), and we committed to working with the MC. She is still doing those things. Not sure I could jettison her now without looking like a two-faced jerk, undoing the good progress that we have made so far (we weren't even friends 6 or 7 months ago) and permanently poisoning the waters.

I wasn't suggesting that you "jettison" her, I was just saying you need to go back to DB'ing basics. Get out. Get a life. Work on yourself. We should all do that even in a healthy marriage! We put too much pressure on our spouse to "complete" us (oh how my MC hated that line from that movie) when we should be establishing ourselves as independent people that bring our spouse along on our life adventure rather than building our life around our spouse. You are trying TOO HARD. Back off and give her space. She's not sure if she likes you right now, and the more you smother her with attention then the worse that will get.

Insisting on sex "Right damned now" just doesn't make sense in the current state of affairs. Moving deliberately towards that is what, apparently, I am committed to now. Problem is I don't see that being successful as long as W is in fantasy land

Forget sex, she won't even kiss you! Like the others said, your rationalization hamster is running in that wheel, running running running. You are allowing yourself to stew in an unacceptable position because you've convinced yourself that you put yourself there and that it's not so bad after all. You reach in for a kiss and she rejects you? That is unacceptable. Do you get it? UNACCEPTABLE. Get out. Get a life. Leave her alone. Let her pursue you, and if and when she does, establish some rules in reconciling. Kissing, fondling, sex, those things and everything else you expect in a relationship.

and I have moved OUT of the realm of distancing/going-dark/after-the-last-resort-technique. Perhaps I should not have so moved but... the fact of the matter is that I did. Going back to that right now not really an option.

Sure it is. I've been dating my GF 3 years now. If she starts acting up then guess what I do? Get out. Get a life. Go dark on her. Quit pursuing. Sound familiar? And guess what she does, she goes into full-scale pursuit. Brother when are you going to start thinking like a man- YOU ARE THE PRIZE, NOT HER.