In a nutshell, my profile is down there at the bottom. After a long period of neglect, definitely classifiable as a "sex-starved marriage", my W began EA with a close friend last October after I had gone to him for help with my M and basically revealed my W's vulnerabilities. There had been warning signs-- she had come to me a couple three times over past two years telling me how sad/lonely/lost/dead-inside she felt, and I pretty much turned it back on her every time, though one time I did ask her "not to leave" when it looked like she was going to. Anyway, BD in January when I overhear convo between her and OM.
I was weak and desperate at first, but within less than two weeks after BD was really doing a great job with GAL's and 180s, and W noticed. Problem was, she was not a WAW but rather a WW, wanting to enjoy the single life, "girls gone wild" lifestyle with her single/divorced/separated friends, particularly her bff, also a WW(curiously enough, married to my own bff). I didn't handle my interactions with her all that well for a few weeks, wavering between "pursuit" and enablement. Finally got buckled down, though, and GALs and 180s really kicked in and W noticed.
Looked like A was going to or had even already died of natural causes... and then something happened. Still dont' know what. A meet up or night out or party or something and it rekindled. W bought a burner phone which I later found out about.
Beginning of June I tell her my boundary that "I wont share her or live in an open marriage". She indicates that cheater phone is gone and she will NC with OM. There is a big blow up night only a week later where she, I and her bff (who, it turns out, is now a good friend of OM and a major enabler my W's A) had too much to drink, said too much, and my W ended up sneaking out after we went home to meet up with bff and OM. She did NOT know I knew about this, and I did not confront her thinking we could "use a reset" based on events. I do put up some surveillance on her and late June, not long before we are to start intensive therapy, I "catch" her in two fairly intimate/emotional encounters with OM.
I go dark for four days during which she pursues me relentlessly. She finally corners me into a talk where she talks about all the things SHE did wrong in our MR that led us to this point... and then I tell her what i know about her and OM. She then takes several steps (without promising me full transparency or committing fully to working on MR) that lead me to believe she is really "Trying" in her own way. This turns out to be false as of 7/23 when I find out she has purchased a second burner phone and she confesses to fairly regular text and phone contact with OM. I walked off and left her at car that night, slept in separate BR, etc. and pretty much "go dark", wont even talk to her about it. She keeps after me by phone and text for two days, eventually corners me into a convo, says tearfully that she is sorry she hurt me, that she had been "working up to" cold-turkey no contact with OM (a self-contradiction, yes) and that she had called OM to break it off and destroyed her extra phone (heard that one before) and that she wanted to work on trying to "figure us out." I tell her that it's not going to be that easy, that I am not sure that I can or should trust her and not sure that I want to try to work things out any more.
A week later (8/1, I think), I confront OM and, in an ugly exchange, tell him I know everything and to stay away from my wife and family. While somewhat cathartic for me on some level, this brings back a lot of pain and hurtful feelings/memories for both me and W. We talk about it and she is still bothered by thought that she has "hurt" OM and that he may have been further "hurt" by my confrontation. She also said she is "not sure" what she wants to do about us. I listen but say little. That weekend, we talk again, and I reiterate that "maybe we need some time on our own" and she says (for what seems like the 20th time) that she is tired of all the "pain" and "negativity" and wishes we could just push the "reset" button and let "Monday be Monday and Tuesday by Tuesday without all the painful relationship talk." She also thinks we should just try to "be in the moment" and "try to have fun". I tell her that I am not willing to keep living with the uncertainty, that I am still not certain I can trust her, and that if she wanted to, as she said, "work on figuring us out" I would need some things, including solid assurances the OM was "gone" and to know that she was committed to the process and that we'd get professional help.
At that point, she starts behaving in exemplary fashion. She pretty much doesn't leave the house unless its with me, is letting me track her phone, did not even ask to see her bff (until very recently), and started coming by one of my GAL hangouts where I was going once a week after work. After the discovery of second burner phone, we slept apart for a while but eventually she joined me in 2nd BR and we have been "sleeping" (that's all, sadly) together ever since.
We have progressively been doing more and more things socially, and generally having a lot of fun, and she had been gradually warming up to me, evidenced mainly by increased comfort with me, increasing willingness to touch and be touched by me, and inviting me to do some things she used to do alone, (even shopping.) Unfortunately, though, we are still kind of in a limbo where she is not as eager to go rehashing or working through the pain we caused each other, and would prefer to just go out and "have fun" and see if "lightning can strike" and she can get those romantic, intimate feelings back. She has more recently said in counseling that she understands that we are going to have to be more deliberate and "just do it" if we are to get that intimate component back. MC has assigned us some reading to do and we are supposed to circle back with her in the coming week or two. W says that everything now between us is as good as or better than its ever been, except for that one missing piece (sex/intimacy-- yes, a big piece). She has agreed to go continue counseling, including IC, which I told her was a must but has shown varying degrees of commitment to it... sometimes seeming very energetic and taking the initiative on the projects/work MC gives us, but sometimes letting it lapse. MC said we were going to have to a)work through some of our individual issues in IC 2) Do some work on forgiveness and trust and processing the hurts we had caused each other and 3) Get comfortable with the idea of physical intimacy between us which at times is kind of awkward and weird under the circumstances. Both MC and DB coach's suggestions basically amount to "just do it" (not necessarily sex, but any physical contact.) W agreed that 1 and 3 were necessary, and is coming around about 2, but admits it feels awkward and weird. Weve had an increasing number of of really, really good, fun spontaneous nights, including a fair amount of physical contact, hugs, us falling asleep holding each other.
About a month ago, however, she has experienced a set-back/pull-back. She has been quieter, withdrawn, kind of moody and sullen, and definitely less warm and friendly. This period came right after her losing a close friend from college to a sudden heart attack, followed closely by toxic bff calling her from OM's bar with OM and crew in attendance to "say hi" to her. On the call, she was in tears, but admitted she "really wanted to be there" (she does not know I know about this convo.) The night of the afternoon she had that convo was our really good night out where she started out sad and quiet but really livened up by end of evening (she even through out a couple of playful sexual innuendos) and we fell asleep in each others arms. Other than that, though, the ten days to two weeks around that time were really kind of a downswing. Since then, however, she has bounced back quite a bit, though she still has "down" spells. I am not monitoring her regularly, though do spot check from time to time. Nothing to tell though she has, as recently as 10 days ago, "driven by" OM's old hangout but not stopped, gone in or, near as I can tell, contacted him.
Her bff is still a potential problem/hurdle, but bff is a lifelong friend and someone who, despite bff's very questionable lifestyle morals and decisionmaking, my W trusts... probably more than anyone including myself, and bff is definitely preaching the positives of divorce, single-hood, and the OM. She recently "reconnected" with bff (who lives an hour away but journeys here weekly for work) after about a month of layoff, and I have consented to her visiting the one time (where she to all appearances behaved herself). BFF clearly went way over the line last month though with the intentional call from the OM's bar to try to entice my W to come out and meet her and OM (my W declined, but admitted she "really wanted to" and then also declined a dinner invite from bff for later that night and then again the following day... but she definitely spent some time in a funk afterwards, and again for an evening after reading some news about OM's son.)
For my part, and GAL, Feels like I've actually made a lot of progress personally, even if my M is not. Some of that has stagnated as I have made more time to "be around" my W while she is going through withdrawals from the OM/A, because I suffered a chest injury a few weeks back, and because I have felt funny about going out "on my own" when she is intentionally NOT doing so.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
So, that^^^ was the long version. The quick version of where I am now:
W is to all appearances in "Affair Recovery" mode. Sometimes fine, sometimes moody and pouty. Mentions of the OM or his family or hearing about them or reading about them in print (OM's son is our HS's quarterback on the football team) definitely still have an effect on her and put her in a bit of a funk. She is, however, behaving herself... letting me know where she is, only going out of the house with me (except for twice, now, with bff, both at bff's house an hour south of her). Only recent blemish has been her driving out of her way to go by OMs hangouts a couple of weeks back... though she later mentioned she'd been by that way as if it were the normal way for her to go.
Biggest issue for us right now is trying to restore intimacy. We have restored a very nice level of friendship and warmth to our relationship, and she has bit by bit become more comfortable with physical gestures-- leaning her head on my shoulder when she laughs, leaning against me with my arm around her when we are talking to S19 on the phone, touching legs with me when we are out sitting together at a club or restaurant, letting me put my arm around her some at same, and sleeping closer to me in bed. But... it is still clearly a bit awkward for her, and I am still not getting that "kiss me you fool" vibe/look that girls give when they want to be kissed, though I have caught her "eyeing me up" more often these days. It's a tough nut to crack... I know from talking to her that she has, in the past, wanted to just be "thrown down and taken", but I am really really not getting the kind of vibe or signals or body language that she is at all interested in that kind of interplay right now, even as she has "warmed up." Both MC and DB Coach (citing MWD's books) have said at some point you need to "just do it" (not sex per se, but the touching part so that we get more used to it and over the awkwardness) BUT that I should take it slow and transition slowly from the more casual, non-sexual touches to the more involved ones, following her body language, responsiveness, and other clues. ((For those familiar with the term, it sounds somewhat similar to "Kino" touching). I understand the concept/theory, and normally am not uncertain as to how and when to advance things with a member of the opposite sex but... the rules just seem like they're different here than they would be with any other girl... and it is HARD. Hard because of the uncertainty, but also hard because on the one hand I don't want to overbear her or spook her away but, OTOH... I kinda sort desparately WANT the woman... if you know what I mean.
Cold shower time.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
It's good that it's hard, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do it.
I have no advice for you; if I were in the same situation, I wouldn't know how to approach my wife. I'd probably use an overt approach, but I'd do it in a setting where nothing could actually happen. For example, spontaneously humping her leg in a public place. That would be awesome regardless of the outcome.
You seem to want to jump from light touching right to sex. There is an in between, you know. And women really like the in between. Have you initiated light touch, hand holding, or cuddling in bed?
It's funny that Ginger mentions the in between. Because the OM never does the in between stuff. They always just go at it with them in the bedroom. And now you find yourself tiptoeing just to be intimate. I can imagine how frustrating that may seem. That the woman who claims to love you is suddenly acting cautious around you of all people. Stay the course, but if your like me at some point this will bother you as time goes on. Just try not to snap.
You seem to want to jump from light touching right to sex. There is an in between, you know. And women really like the in between. Have you initiated light touch, hand holding, or cuddling in bed?
Yeah, I know. That's the hard part, I guess, because we have been married and have had sex... just seems weird on some level not to be able to get back to that. But not just that, the whole romantic/intimate love piece... You know, the kissing, the snuggling, the making out (which a lot of guys, including myself, actually kind of like, too). I mean, its been a while, but I still remember how she used to look at me, heck, how most women look at you when they are interested... when they want to be kissed. I see small flashes of that here and there, but for the most part, it is I who have been doing the initiating. With light touch, mostly, and she has been increasingly accepting/receptive to this (back during while the A was at it's height, and shortly after, she actually found it off-putting.) She still finds it kind of awkward, but, from time to time she has been increasingly leaning in to me, reaching out to me, etc. But it is still relatively rare.
What I fear is not being aggressive enough, as we definitely had a SSM before (for a number of reasons I wont again belabor here) and has talked a lot about that being a missing element, although not just the sex ("It's about more than just sex" I have heard her say to me a couple of times and even once to OM in one of the recorded conversations) but the whole intimacy piece.
She's also a bit tough to figure out sometimes. She has told me a couple of times that "sometimes she likes it rough" and that sometimes she just wants to be "thrown down and taken", but... then she also has made it a point to talk about how important the whole intimacy piece is... and even that she also "wants a gentlemen." One of the things that came out in counseling was that the first thing that really caught her interest about OM was that he hustled ahead to get the door for her when they went for coffee (back when he was just "our friend" and she started to confide in him about our MR problems) and then when he later went out of his way to help an elderly man up and out the door. "So which is it" I feel like screaming, and when? Warm, Gentlemanly do-gooder, or rowdy bad-boy sex monster? I can be both, but not always clear what she wants, and when, and when she is ready for it.
Because of my previous neglect for her, I suspect there will be a bit of a "show me" attitude within her in terms of our future intimacy, but... even so, I'd expect to be getting some more cues from her than I am.
Then again, we are only NC +3.5 or 4 months (depending on how you reckon it), so she could be and probably is (our MC says it usually takes about a year to completely "get over it") still mourning the A and affected by that.
Arrrrgh....
Oh great.
And now, W wants to go have dinner with bff tomorrow (Thursday) night. Locally. She has twice gone to visit bff at bff's house, about an hour and a half south of here, and, oddly, I am much more comfortable with that. Primarily because that's a small town, and my own best friend lives there, is well liked, and knows basically everyone including my W's bff who is his own STBXW. And she (W) checks in regularly enough that I know she couldn't be up to anything down there. Locally, in our own city (we live in a fairly large metro area), there is much more opportunity, and, indeed, temptation, with OM and his hangouts easily accessbile and his friendship with bff still intact. Not to mention bff's shown proclivity to enable and even encourage my W to stray.
Most recently, bff had, about a month or so back, phoned up my W from OM's favorite bar, with OM and pals there shouting "Hi Mrs Hoosjim, we miss you, come on over!" which brought my W to tears and put her in a funk for close to a week. Bff even threw in a "Oh, I see, doing what you're 'SUPPOSED to do', I remember living my life that way.." when my W said she couldn't come. A little more recently, though, bff had contact me W about a festival in her home town and said "why don't you and hoosjim come down", so maybe she is softening. Idunno. But I am not very happy at the prospect of my W being put to that kind of test right now. Holidays are a very challenging and vulnerable time for her...
MC has advised us to be "completely open and honest", so I feel like I should tell her "I don't feel good about this, given past history... I'd really like it if you'd call or text me a couple times while you're out." Of course, I could always "track" her, and her phone is susceptible to tracking as is... but she can always leave her car and always leave her phone in it. Plus, I'd obviously much rather she tell me she understands and just check in with me. OTOH, asking her to do so seems like it could be pretty counterproductive to where we are.
Wish bff would hurry up and move the hell out of state. Of course then there will still be her constant FB posts about how "wonderful/happy/magical her life is" right now... that is, how great it is with her AP who happens to be my own best friends FORMER good friend. "Hey look at me, look how fun and good infidelity is!"
Grrrrr...
Last edited by Cadet; 12/07/1707:45 AM. Reason: Combine posts
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
This probably doesn't apply to your situation, but I'll mention it just 'cause. My XW had a variety of sexual likes and dislikes that would even change dramatically during sex. Sometimes it would become downright scary.
Before we married, I knew she'd been sexually assaulted by an ex-boyfriend, but after a number of years of marriage, she revealed she'd been sexually abused as a young child (it's a long story - and it's truly horrendous). Many of her memories were repressed so she often wasn't aware of the past abuse until she'd be triggered, often during sexual situations.
Anyway, your wife probably does not have the background of abuse that my XW has, but I'm relaying my story because, on one hand, my XW would often request things that I was afraid would be hurtful (I wouldn't comply with those requests), and other times, she wanted soft and gentle touches.
I think we all like different things at different times, but my wife went to extremes. If your wife is difficult to figure out at times, she might have some lingering fears or concerns that she may not be aware of.
So here's another issue: How do you navigate the "I'm fat" or "I need to lose 15 pounds" minefield with a recovering Ww/WAW? Been hearing this from mine more and more, and seems like a "h just keep your mouth shut" no-win situation. Bottom line my W is a knockout and pretty much everyone agrees."has she put on on 10 to 15 pounds over the last 10 month or so? Idunno, its possible. She says some of her older cute it fits she likes to wear don't fit right now, so I'll take her at her word, but, bottom line is I think she still looks amazing. Could she lose 10 to 15 pounds,without looking emaciated? Sure, I suppose. But aside from being able to "fit" into certain clothes, she definitely doesn't NEED to lose it.
All this is complicated by the previous neglect and her skepticism that my compliments are sincere sometime. (At least they don't piss her off like they did as of a few months ago... she is warming up. Still, what's every ones thoughts on navigating this conversational tightrope? How do you validate and not contradict her feelings while still letting her know and making her feel like she looks amazing?
Last edited by Cadet; 11/29/1711:05 PM.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
I would blame it on the clothes, saying they must be shrinking in the cold winter air. Then present it as a challenge to keep up with the shrinking size of the clothes by going on daily walks/runs, bike rides together so it doesn't cost a fortune to buy all new non shrinking clothes.
And on a side note, when asked "do these jeans make my butt look big", I like to reply "no, your butt does that all on its own". Good Times always follow
M - 9 1/2 years 5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA 10/31/16 - We sold house 01/10/18 - D Finalized
Like you said, it is pretty much of a no win situation for the H. I think you need not to try and convince her. She doesn't feel good about herself. All you can do is compliment her. If you over kill.......she'll tune it out. She wants to hear someone who is unbiased tell her she looks good. I've heard some women make the statement about their H, "Well, he has to say I look good". Which, I think they mean he is biased b/c he loves her. It's like when a stranger gives you a compliment, or you run into an old classmate and they say you haven't aged......it makes you feel good.
I don't mean to sound as if a W doesn't want her H's compliments, however, we know the H sees through eyes of love.......which means (to many women) that the H would naturally say she looks fine. On the other hand, it's a minefield b/c if he sounds as if he is suggesting, or agrees, she should lose weight.......then she gets an attitude toward him.
Just listen when she talks. If she asks what you think, say something like, "I think you are beautiful just as you are, but if you don't feel good about yourself, and if you want to do something.....I'll support it, as long as it's healthy".
Have you thought about inviting her to go workout at at the gym with you? That could be a shared activity.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
