Still here. Still not detached... (Part 3)

[Chris73]

"A long December and there's reason to believe maybe this year will be better than the last..."

Yesterday I sat with the title company for my new mortgage and signed my name about 100 times. My W is officially detached from any financial responsibility regarding our house. In return, the buy-out amount she asked for is in her bank account as of this morning.

Done and done.

Everyone I mention this to says, "Congratulations!" And while I appreciate their optimism, I'm finding no cause to celebrate. Yes, it's great that the house remains in the family and my kids aren't completely uprooted. But they WILL be leaving at some point, not before the holidays, but definitely soon. I'm dreading this.

Lately I've been very angry. The ghost of my old wife still haunts my dreams. I want to tell her everything that I've thought about over the past 6 months. How I've changed. How I've learned so much about what we did wrong. We used to be able to talk. Now there's nothing. It's hard for me to understand how I could hate her so much and yet still love her enough to want her to change her mind and stay.

I guess I just have to remember that this woman chose to walk away from her home, her partner, her future, her financial stability, and give up half her time with her kids rather than try to find a way to make things work with me. It's really soul-crushing to realize how far she'll go to get away from me.

And I'm not really that bad of a guy

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2762129#Post2762129

[TBSakaJ9]

Chris..sorry to hear, hang in there. Big thumbs up on the counting crows!

[Chris73]

Hi Everyone. I thought I would post this update during the calm before the storm that is December. Both my kids have birthdays this month. My daughter turned 6 yesterday and my son will turn 9 on the 23rd.

W and I are still nesting while she continues to look for a place to move to. Buying something is not an option for her right now, so she's going to have to rent for a year. I feel a lot of different ways about this. Primarily, I'm unhappy because it means that my kids will have to move twice. But that's all the more reason why my staying in the house is a good idea. Part of me is glad that she's having trouble. I want her to see just how difficult the reality of her decision is. On the other hand, part of me is happy that she's renting instead of buying. It gives her the opportunity to put the breaks on for a year and spend some time working through her problems. Not sure that she'll do that tho, I think she's still in "new life full speed ahead" mode. The hard part for me is watching all of this happen and knowing that there's nothing I can do to affect the outcome in any way.

I've had a lot of difficulty with anger over the last couple of months. It's frustrating because it really has nowhere to go. I'm angry at my W, but allowing that anger to affect my behavior towards her is a recipe for disaster. What I really need to get over is my secret desire for my kids to be unhappy when they're with her. This is a terrible thing. I shouldn't ever WISH unhappiness on my kids. They certainly don't understand the complexities of adult relationships and they love their mom very much. In time they will understand what happened to us and they'll have to make their own decisions about how they feel about it.

The two of us are getting along ok right now. This is the last xmas that the 4 of us will spend in the same home and we're working together to handle gifts and plans. The tree goes up this week and I invited her to join us on Sunday afternoon to decorate it and she accepted. She's going to do something with them on xmas eve, but we're both going to stay at the house so that we're both there in the morning when the kids wake up. Then the kids will spend xmas day, new years eve, and new years day with me. I'm sure she has a NYE party to go to, but I never enjoyed them. I'll be happier ringing in the new year with my kids.

Now for a GAL update:

-I just joined a new blues band. Practices start next week and our first gig is in January. I'm very excited to get out and play more, and since everyone else in the band is married, all the groupies are for me!

-Just bought a new car, nothing fancy just reliable, and my new car payment is less than it was!

-Decided over the weekend that I'm going to sign up for a half-marathon at the end of April. My longest run is 6 miles, so this will be a challenge. But I have 20 weeks to do it. I told my kids, so now there's no going back!

All things considered, I'm doing ok.

[Vapo]

C, good to hear! Keep it rollin'!

[Vapo]

Anger? You have to dissipate the anger. Do not bottle it. Vent it out. Take a baseball bat to the trash can or something. Go hiking and yell at a spruce. I am not kidding...

[Chris73]

You're so right Vapo.

This morning the bus was late. My daughter was crying about something while I was trying to say goodbye to her and rush out the door to make it to the train on time.

On the drive over to the station, I punched the passenger seat of my car several times as hard as I could and yelled, "This is all your fault you effing c-word. I effing hate you! You've ruined everyone's lives!"

...of course, this is not a rational assessment of what's going on, but I wasn't being rational. I was just angry.

I'm ok now. A little depressed tho. Playing poker tonight with the boys. First time in over a year. Maybe I'll even win some moolah! Wish me luck!!

[Holding]

Chris, good job on letting out that anger. It's not supposed to be rational. It's ugly and sharp and needs to come out.

Good luck at poker.

[dusty70]

Chris, Vapo's right, make sure you find some way to vent the anger, keeping it bottled up like I used to do just isn't healthy for anyone because you never know who may get the brunt end when it comes out. With that, I need to apologize to the steering wheel of my car, it did nothing wrong to get the verbal and physical abuse it has endured over the past 7+ months! Have fun with the boys poker night!

[joejoe1]

Have fun Chris. Are you'll playing Texas Hold em. If so, pocket 9s do destruction.

[Gordie]

Great news on the blues band! Sounds fun.

[slater]

Chris, I feel for you dude. I have followed many posters on here but yours in particular because my BD was around the same time as yours (April 2016) and I have tried various techniques advocated on this site but to no avail.

My ex was a WAW with 3 young children and I recall you saying way back that your wife was full of $hit, i.e. you thought she was pretending things were fine when you knew they weren't, that she would eventually come around. You tried hard man, harder than I did. I couldn't bring myself to properly DB due to the anger (which I still have, largely because of all the things my children will be denied). I went no contact for about four months this summer after trying to be nice, understanding, validate, all that, but my anger over her leaving 3 young children always seemed to prevail and I put up resistance (we went to court over the sale of the house and some other stuff), that didn't work. But neither did going completely NC, made things worse actually. But I just couldn't bring myself to lovingly detach as they say on here because I always felt as though she didn't deserve it...to be friends with a view to nurturing a new relationship, I just felt she was getting off too easy, you know what I mean?

At the end of the day, having been separated for nearly 20 months, what I've come to realize is that if someone really wants out, no matter how unreasonable and unreal it may seem, there is nothing you can really do. People get divorced all the time and people, including family, just come to accept the new normal even if you don't. And the funny thing is, I don't think she has an OM, so part of me always thought she was waiting for me to change. In fact, she said as much once about a year ago when I reacted poorly to one particular situation.

We had an in-house separation for only about 3 months and I thought she would never move out and give up half her time with her children. She did. Then I thought when she signed a 1-year lease that if I showed consistent change (which I didn't as stated above) she would come around and at least try to work on the relationship. Nope. She bought a house. And so eventually you come to realize as someone on here once said that it's like your previous relationships where you broke up with someone and just knew you would never again take that person back. The difference of course being the children, which says a lot, how desperately she must have wanted out if she would rather give up half the time with her children than stay in the relationship (and my ex is very good mom, still is).

I told my ex shortly after BD that we would never have the kind of co-parenting relationship she envisioned if I didn't feel as though we had made some effort to work on keeping our family together. And so now, having said that, I struggle with trying to be friendly...if we could be friends, with small children involved, then we should still be together. I firmly believe this and give credit to guys like Gordie, yourself, and more recently Maika and Joseph9, for trying to validate when all you really want to say is "What the fuk are you thinking woman". Gordie in particular because he never got angry with his ex, was still having sex with his wife, did all the right things (and he has young children), and she was only having an EA...and she still ended up wanting a divorce. Gordie, I hope she wakes up, you deserve it more than most on here.

When they say on here not to be punitive, isn't that the same as saying show her what separation and divorce will look like. Don't do family stuff together, have two birthday parties for the kids, get a babysitter instead of first checking with your ex to see if she wants to watch the kids for a few hours. All of that. In the end, it is punitive, and is upsetting to your ex, but showing them what separation and divorce will look like doesn't work either in my experience. Just gets them to dig in further if nothing else.

So the alternative is to let them cake eat but that angered me because why should she have the family life when she walked away from her family?

This is what I really struggle with. And I know the DB principles say that once you truly detach you won't care anymore and perhaps become emotionally mature and be a model co-parent but part of me thinks I will forever be angry with my ex even if I'm fully detached. And I think I might be there, I don't think of my ex all that much and hardly ever see her these past few months except at the odd exchange, but still somehow think, notwithstanding it will be two years in April, that she will never be truly happy because she doesn't have a family on a full-time basis (so maybe this means I'm not truly detached).

If your wife and mine decided after dating a few men that perhaps it is worth another try, how would you respond after two years apart, or longer? There was no affair to overcome in my sitch but lots of other damage has been done and you have to wonder if you could ever forgive her for putting the family through what she did. My children miss their mother terribly when they are with me and I expect the same applies for me when with their mom. Of course, I don't tell her this, she knows, and one part of DB I have maintained throughout is not to say anything to her to make her feel guilty (but doing what I can to make sure she misses out on certain events with the children). That I'm now sure is not working because she has repeatedly said I'm still trying to control her, which was her biggest complaint during the relationship and at BD.

Somewhat amazingly, we have never had a relationship discussion since BD and did not try counseling. When I told her shortly after BD that I needed to feel as though we made some effort if we were going to have any kind of relationship going forward, she did agree to try counseling but said it was only for communication reasons and that she felt our problems were irreparable. So with that condition, and having learned about 180's on this site, I decided against counseling because she was fully expecting me to participate enthusiastically and I thought perhaps if I didn't agree she might think I was also done and willing to move on, which would give her pause for thought. Again, that didn't happen and perhaps that particular 180 was a misstep.

What I really struggle is how she has treated this to some extent as she might a boyfriend break-up, but of course it's not, there are three small children to consider. At BD, my kids were 5, 2 and unbelievably, 4 months old. The ages of my children have contributed to my belief that she would eventually come around, but she remains resolute. I think relationship talks are too painful for the WAW and so avoided at all costs.

All of this to say that I wholeheartedly agree with the premise on this site that you can't control what your ex does. It's not so much their journey but rather, them having moved on. I also think that although the advice on here is to be patient (marathon not a sprint), the best chance you have at reconciliation is within the first 6 months, because once you get into our domain (approaching 2 years), the new normal transitions into life. Things like getting together for Christmas morning (which we did last year) fall away and this year I fully expect I won't get an invite to her house as she did last year at the (former) family home. I have never stepped inside her new home, just at the doorway to pick up the kids once or twice. Again, that's just me being purposely indifferent. She did invite me over once after we ran into each other this past summer, but I was in full no contact mode at the time and declined her invitation. In part because of the advice on here, thought it was probably a temperature check of sorts or perhaps her trying to be "friends" and wanting to show me her new house (both of which I have no interest in). I also thought because I hadn't returned any of her text messages for a couple months, it was the whole pursuit thing and that she would back off again if I showed interest in spending time with her. Again, maybe that was another misstep but I do know from having one prior in-house separation that she is likely to send a much stronger signal if she's thinking about reconciliation.

But to date, there has been no real relationship discussion other than during some angry phases where she mentions things like, don't be surprised when I say you haven't changed or more recently, that we had problems during the relationship and I wish it had worked out, but it didn't.

So I'm now dating, not sure if she is, she has never mentioned anyone. At the end of the day, it takes two to make it work and she seems content with her new life (of course, she would never admit to how difficult it is being a single mom). I believe our ex wives are hell bent on showing us that they can make it without us, particularly financially. My ex has said to me a couple times during an angry phase (for the first year we cycled between getting along and having fights over things that arose as we both adjusted to our new situations) that she was "happy". I resisted taking the bait and saying the only person that seems to care if ex-wife is happy is ex-wife. Plus, I don't believe her, as you said, she is full of $hit...but still with no signs of coming around.

I have followed many of the sitches on this site but decided against putting my own on here (although I kind of have with this post). Anyway, good luck to you and the others. Hopefully, you are one of the exceptions and can put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

[Maika]

Hey Slater!!

Oh man! Thank you for posting that. I feel like I am reading my sitch, minus having a new baby just after BD.

You got it so right about what I want to say to my W - What the F%(K are you thinking???? Instead I am trying to pull back and give her tons of space and stay friendly, but not be her friend.

I have the similar issue about anger - how it's impacted the kids and will impact them for their life. I didn't sign up to be a part-time parent and the fact that I don't know what's going on for half their life is something I am having a hard time accepting. I know they miss me when they're with her and vice versa.

The 180s and the other DB techniques are good in the sense that they allow the LBS to discover themselves and not look weak and pathetic in front of the WW. But, you don't always know if they are working and when you're NC, it's even harder to gauge. But, the opposite of NC also doesn't work and so you're left between a boulder and a sledgehammer.

I think the only thing that I have come to realize is that I need to be my authentic self and figure out my depression issues. I have zero idea or hope that anything I do will bring her back to even try and recon - not saying if recon would restore the MR, which is a whole another ballgame. She hasn't even shown up for practice, forget the game, so it's pointless to worry about if we'll be able to rush the last five yards with seconds away from the game whistle.

I guess I am still bitter about the fact that I wasn't even given a chance. Everything I had suggested after BD was rejected and I feel like I was just discarded and disposed of.

And like you I don't think there is an OM, yet. I believe there was some EA stuff in the beginning before and around BD, but didn't last. I have no idea if there is someone in her life or not and I have no way of getting intel on that short of hiring a PI - which I am not going to waste money on.

I am sorry to hear that your W is still resolute in her decision. My W also suggested counseling for improving communications which reeked of 'divorce management' and so I didn't take her up on that offer.

How is dating life? You're 20 months out and do you feel like you're in a place where you can do it? Also, have you or her filed for D?

Thanks again for your post. I felt really sad reading it and I could totally feel all your emotions as you described them.

[Chris73]

I AM SUCH A WUS!!!!

I'm scared of my W and there's no denying it. Clearly I need more nice guy syndrome therapy.

My son has basketball practice on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Normally he's with his mom on Tuesdays but he asked me to come to his practice tonight. Of course I said ok, but now I'm quaking in my boots trying to craft the perfect txt to my W to tell her that I'll be coming.

What the eff am I so afraid of? Perhaps she'll be mad or frustrated with me. But who cares right? My son asked me to come and it's a public place...

OK, just sent it. We'll see what happens next.

[JRuss]

Why text her at all? In most states, you have a legal right to attend any and all athletic and/or school events, irrespective of whether it's "your day" or not with the children.

[Chris73]

Why text her at all?

We're on good terms right now. And we explicitly had a discussion that she would take him on Tuesdays and I would take him on Thursdays. If it were a game there wouldn't be an issue, but it's just practice. So the txt is just a respectful courtesy.

[JRuss]

Then no reason at all to sweat the text or its wording. Just "S8 asked me to come to his practice, and my schedule's free, so see you then."

[LH19]

Chris,

Your kids are young so you better get your $hit in check real quick or you will be in for a long and painful decade.

Things usually don't end well for men who are afraid of their wives.

[MoveFrwd]

Why text her at all?

We're on good terms right now. And we explicitly had a discussion that she would take him on Tuesdays and I would take him on Thursdays. If it were a game there wouldn't be an issue, but it's just practice. So the txt is just a respectful courtesy.

Just curious why you agreed to go. I mean, I get that you CAN. And I certainly understand that your S asked you to....But I certainly dont do everything my kids ask of me. Curious how you would feel about her attending on Thursdays?

[Chris73]

I'd be thrilled if she came on Thursdays. I'm happy whenever she shows support for our family unit, even if we're not intact anymore.

[TBSakaJ9]

Chris, I attend everyone of D's basketball or soccer practices and their games no matter if it my week or not. My W and I also let each other know if we won't make it so we can let our children know if they ask. There have been several times where they have asked me if mommy is coming and it is nice to be able to give them an answer.

[Chris73]

Everything was fine. I met them at the gym, watched the practice. Hugged the kids and left. Glad I went.

[Holding]

Good job going to the practice, Chris!

I had issues being scared of my STBXW (still do TBH, though not as much as before). I realized that, for me, it's mostly not rational, that I had been somehow "programmed" by her to fear her. Once I started to acknowledge when it was happening, I started to do better with it.

I suggest you spend some time thinking why you're scared of her. What will she do? What COULD she do?

[Chris73]

Thanks Holding. The fear is definitely rooted in irrational thinking. Initially my fear was that anything I did to upset her or not comply with her wishes would further deteriorate my chances of us getting back together. 18 months later I realize that there was nothing I could have done to prevent the decisions she's made to break up the family. But then my fear transformed from that into "If I don't do what she wants, she going to make my life hell in divorce court." But this fear isn't rational either. She's getting what she wants out of this divorce. To try to get more out of me requires a lot of time, money, and stress.

[Gordie]

Chris73,

Good that you recognized the fear and overcame it. When I get that twinge of fear, i say to myself: of what am I afraid? That she’s going to D me? And then I laugh...

[Gordie]

How’s it going?

[Chris73]

Hi everyone. It's been quite a while since my last post.

December was a difficult month. Despite her still living in my house, I let my wife have xmas eve with the kids without me. I got up super early the next day and made it back to my house xmas morning before the kids got up. The hardest part was watching her go early xmas afternoon. I have no idea where she went, nor did the kids. She did the same thing 2 days before on my son's 9th birthday. On neither occasion did I tell her that she had to leave. In fact, I asked her to stay. She went to the mountains with her friends on NYE weekend too.

I know part of this is wayward selfishness, and that's the part that makes me angry and resentful. It's hard for me to imagine why she wouldn't want to spend these moments with our kids considering that they're still young and actually want to spend time with us!

But if I try to look at life from her point of view I guess I can understand why she would be uncomfortable staying and doing family things in my house (which used to be our house). She seems fully committed to her decision to end the marriage and create a new family dynamic.

2 weeks after xmas she moved out. She asked me to take the kids to my moms for the weekend so that she could have time to pack everything and get it out of the house. We agreed on the things she would take. Nothing major, other than my daughter's bedroom furniture which she borrowed from her brother.

Coming back to the house that Sunday night was about as surreal as you could get. The kids and I walked through the house looking for missing things. My daughter slept with me that night.

Now, for the first time since June, the KIDS are the ones moving back and forth. The nesting arrangement was never going to be a permanent thing, but this change still hits everyone pretty hard. The biggest adjustment for me is all the extra alone time that I have now. When we were nesting, I was staying at my mom's, so there was always something there to talk to. Now, 3 nights a week minimum, it's just me in our big house.

The other big challenge is the total loss of control over my kids when they're not with me. I had lost some of it when we started nesting, but they were still living in one place. Now they have a whole new environment, living arrangement, neighborhood, furniture, rules. And I have no say in any of it. Our custody split is 42% vs 58% in her favor, and trying to make even 42% work with my job schedule is difficult and stressful, but I'm making it work.

January was the first month that I paid her the agreed upon child support amount. I have no problem with this except when I hear from the kids that they got new light up sneakers, a new Xbox, and an Apple watch. Nothing I can do about it though.

There are upsides to all of this. I'm enjoying my alone time and I have 100% control over what happens in my house. My wife took a lot of the things that I considered clutter. And the clutter she left behind has either already been trashed or will be soon. The house needs a lot of work, and most of my anxiety these days is trying to find time to get to all of it.

I think about my W less and less. The day after she moved out, I removed everything from the house related to our wedding/marriage and I moved all my clothes back into my bedroom. I suppose this aspect of the breakup is easier for her because she's living in a whole new environment with no memories attached to anything. I toggle back and forth between trying to be compassionate with her and being extremely pi$$ed at her. But that's usually only when I'm in contact with her for something. The rest of the time she's not in my immediate thoughts.

GAL is coming along. I'm getting some female attention but I'm not pursuing. I don't think I can handle any more emotional commitments right now. I started playing guitar in a new band and having a lot of fun. We have gigs lined up through June. Back in December I decided to train for a half marathon in April, but over the past weekend I realized that I just don't have the time to train for it. So I lowered the bar a bit and signed up for a 5K at the end of March. There's a 10 mile run in May and a couple 10Ks in June and September. These distances are much more doable but still give me something to work towards.

At the end of June I'm planning a short trip to San Fran which culminates with a Dead and Co show in Mountain View. I love that area of the country and I've never seen any incarnation of the Dead out west so it should be a blast.

Well, that's it for me. Considering this is a divorce busting board for newcomers I think I will start posting elsewhere. I hope my threads can be as helpful to others as they were to me.

[slater]

Hi Chris,

Glad you updated. I posted on your sitch before Christmas because I had been following yours given the similarities (in particular, the BD date, mine was April 2016 with in-house separation ending July 2016).

By and large, I expect most here would say you have DB'ed very well, applying little or no pressure after the first month or so. I can't recall one instance where you have posted something that may have confirmed for her the decision to leave, i.e. you insulting her, making her feel guilty, a heated argument in front of kids, etc. You also had a WAW as far you know, not a WW (although I understand she is now perhaps in a relationship of some kind but didn't at least for the first year, maybe longer).

Nobody here is clairvoyant, and I don't even know if you want to hear this now or would still consider R after almost 2 years...but I predict your W comes back once you are in a relationship of your own and sees another woman raising her children.

Don't you find it interesting that she still hasn't served you with divorce papers?

[Chris73]

Hi slater! Just a couple of clarifications so that the details are accurate:

1. It was probably a good 5 months after BD that I tired DB'ing. I did put a lot of pressure on her during those 5 months. But in my defense, she admitted to an EA/PA and insisted that she wanted to work on saving the marriage. By the time I started DB'ing she was talking about separation.

2. I believe, although all the evidence is circumstantial, that she was wayward the entire time post BD. There might have been a month or two in the beginning when we were both committed to working on the marriage when she was faithful, but I think her Girls Gone Wild phase started around September and then she met OM2 at the end of October and I think she's been seeing him ever since.

3. She hasn't served me with papers primarily because she can't afford health insurance. This was part of our monetary arrangement when I bought her out of her share of the house... the cash amount was lower than she wanted. Yes, it's definitely cake eating to an extent, but I'm letting it slide for now. She really could have made our separation much more difficult if she wanted to.

I also believe, like you, that one day the fog will lift and she will regret her decision. However, I've truly come to understand her stubbornness and insecurity over the past 2 years. If she has an authentic change of heart in the future I'm almost certain she would keep it to herself.

A little bleak I suppose. But realistic.

[Vapo]

No buddy, DB is not solely for newbies, although it does help newbies most, because they are in most need of help and at a very vulnerable stage.

I personally stayed to help the newbies, to try to shorten their trip to the better place.

However if leaving is your decision, than so be it. I wish you the best of luck and a wonderful life with your kids.

Take care buddy,

V

[Chris73]

Hi Vapo. No, I'll be sticking around to read and offer help if/when I can. I just won't be posting as much and I might eventually start a new thread in the "Surviving" board.

[Coconut]

Chris,

I just read through this thread of your sitch, I know that all the changes in the last month are a lot to handle, but you seem to have your head on straight and are steadily moving forward.

Based on what I read, I definitely think you will be best served in holding off on dating for a bit. There is a lot of your W in your posts, and I suspect you still have a long way to go in being truly detached. I know when I physically separated, I spent 3 or 4 months full of emotion, and if I was to go back through my thread, was probably saying I was detached at the time. Even though you've been nesting, it's different than when you actually have two homes, you start to build a life that the other person isn't involved in, that's when I found my independence starting come in leaps and bounds.

Congratulations on getting to keep the family home, I know there are memories of her that will take a little time to get past, but there are also memories with your kids that are irreplaceable. I think one of the things I miss the most of my past is getting to go into my sons room every morning to wake him up. btw, do you have someplace in the house that you mark the kids heights with the dates? My son liked it (we did it on the doorframe to his closet), especially being able to see the growth spurt that hit around 12.

Also, don't feel like you have to leave the newcomers forum, there is a lot more traffic here, but of course you're welcome to post wherever you feel most comfortable.

[slater]

Ok, so I may have had a few salient facts mixed up...couldn't find all your early threads, The Great Sandi Experiment and the one preceding that...but you did a good job at DB'ing once she was hinting at separation (and in your further defence, all of ours really, nobody thinks she's reeeallly serious during the first month or two anyway, so the pressure being brought to bear is due to that, i.e. how can it drive her away if she's not really serious...even she isn't sure in the early stages). But when it becomes clear she is serious, then that is when DB'ing becomes important...which is why I'm thinking the fog will clear in your favour. "Fog" is really stubbornness for exes like ours I think, they would rather live with regret than appear to others to have acted in haste (without fully thinking it through), by making a decision to give it another shot for the sake of the family.

And while the cost of health insurance may appear to be a good reason to avoid formal divorce proceedings, you can bet she would figure out a way to get it done (like she has with respect to selling the house, moving out, splitting custody, etc.), IF it was important enough to her. For example, if her new relationship was important enough, and the new dude is getting annoyed and asking why she's not yet divorced, her still being married is standing in the way of a getting re-married...yet she's done nothing about that, but would have you believe she's "happy" (or happier) with the new dude. Don't forget, the biggest threat to his relationship with your ex is you so he wants her divorced. I say until she's re-married, you will never be off her radar...and any new guy, a guy that's NOT the father of her children, has little room for error.

I have taken a different approach as of late, not being nice (not mean, just very dim, very distant), allowing no cake eating, no updates on the kids, and calling her out on her $hit, see what that brings. Probably nothing, but DB'ing hasn't to this point brought good results either, so why not? Can always go back to DB'ing, it's a long, long road and really not over over till someone re-marries or both are completely indifferent to the other (and that can't be the case if there is still anger and emotion emanating from both sides).

Apologies to all readers, I'm the king of run-on sentences.

[Chris73]

Getting better with boundaries...

(txt conversation)

ME: Good morning. What time will you be bringing the kids over tomorrow? (they're on spring break)

STBXW: No later than 9. But I'm not feeling well and might decide to bring them over tonight instead.

ME: Sorry you're not feeling well. But I have band practice until around 10 tonight.

(pause)

...it was at this point that I started writing another text that would have suggested that my mom could come to my house and watch the kids while I was at band practice so that she could drop them off tonight.

But then I thought, "Why should rearrange my schedule and inconvenience my family because she doesn't feel well?" My mom is coming over tomorrow to help ME with the kids. I'm not going to ask her to come over the night before too.

So I erased that text and just waited. Eventually...

STBXW: Ok, not a problem. I'll bring them tomorrow around 9.

Do you know how much it SUCK$ to not offer to help the person you once pledged to love forever?

UGH!

[SteveLW]

Chris, excellent job! I agree I would have a hard time with this too.

[AnotherStander]

Do you know how much it SUCK$ to not offer to help the person you once pledged to love forever?

I'm not the best at it, LOL! Almost 4 years divorced and I still help my XW with stuff. I just fixed her washing machine a couple of weeks ago. But I do it because she has health problems (arthritis and complications from breast cancer) and despite everything that transpired I do still care for her. Not in a romantic way anymore, but like I would a family member. But you are doing the right thing considering where you are in your sitch. DB'ing ain't easy!

[Gordie]

Good job and good to hear from you.

You are still legally M, right? And you are okay with that for now?

Any ski trips to the poconos?

[Chris73]

Hi Gordie!

Yes, no legal actions have been taken other than the financial ones. As far as being ok with it. I'm not really sure, but it isn't a source of hope for me. Above all else it allows my W to continue to receive my health insurance which I'm ok with since she's self-employed.

One of my big moves last week (well "big" for me anyway) was to completely block her on FB. Prior to the block, I had just unfollowed her, but it was easy enough check in on her if I wanted to. I decided on the block after I saw a post from her thanking everyone for the "birthday wishes" but none of the actual birthday posts from friends were visible to me. Conclusion: She's filtering information away from me. It angered me a little, but just further confirmed that I need to spend more time in the "moving forward" mindset.

Ironically, my son and I will be going on our first (and only) ski trip this Friday. I'm excited, they got about 2 feet of snow up there over the past 2 weeks!

[Gordie]

Chris,

Enjoy your ski trip!

We were on the same timeline but my w was in a bigger rush to get D. Well, she dropped it. So my only advice to you is to keep living your awesome life without w. You never know what will happen.

[Jim1234]

You and your son will have a blast. Good for you for blocking her FB

[slater]

Chris, how are you doing dude?

[Chris73]

Hi all. I'm resurrecting this thread because the title is still apropos.

Quick recap of my sitch:

BD on 5/27/16 (2 years and 3 months ago)
In-house separation started on 11/24/16 (6 months later)
Nesting started on 6/12/17 (7 months later)
W moves out 1/8/18 (6 months later)
Living on my own as a part-time, single parent (7 months an counting)

Nothing has been filed.
House has been refinanced in my name. W received a cash payout.
Joint physical custody, close to 50/50 (technically 43/57... one extra overnight for her since I work full time)
Monthly child support payment from me. All other child expenses split 60/40.
No other joint finances or debts.

A couple months ago my W made her new relationship public to me in a family counseling session. We were both aware that I knew about it since it started back in October of 2016 but I think her new relationship status became "official" because she wanted to legitimize the inclusion of our kids into the time she spends with her new man. In the session she told me that he offered to talk to me about the situation... I suppose this was their attempt to make me feel more comfortable about him spending time with my kids. I declined the invitation. I'm not ready to play nice with him. Probably a selfish decision on my part.

Since going public our kids have had a lot of exposure to her new man and his older kids (16 and 21). They have dinner together on a weekly basis and just recently spent 4 days at the beach together. Without any provocation, my kids tell me things about him. Most of them are things I don't like, but nothing that is cause for concern. I try very hard to not say anything disparaging about him to my kids, but it's very difficult.

On the flip side, I've dipped my toes in the dating pool a few times and felt very uncomfortable. I've met women with kids in similar situations as mine and there's a temptation there to move quickly into a new relationship. But I think it's primarily for the convenience of having someone to lighten the parenting load and provide comfort during the lonely times. And that's not a good enough reason for me to introduce a new person into my kids' lives. If I start a new relationship with someone I want it to be because I really like them, not because they can make my life easier. So I think the dating thing will remain on hold for a while.

The 3 of us just got back from a week at the beach. This was the second year that we went without my W and it was just as difficult to manage everything as it was last year. There were a few moments when I lost my cool and I put a pretty big dent in a bottle of bourbon, but overall we had a great time, made a lot of fond memories, and kept a few summer traditions alive.

Although there wasn't much of it, I spent most of my quiet time at the beach journaling, thinking about my marriage, and how I feel about my W now that more than 2 years have passed since the BD. I still love her very much. And it's extremely hard to admit that to myself when I consider all of the crappy things that she's done to sabotage our relationship and disrespect me. But when all my defenses are down, that's the raw truth. I'm not over it.

This feeling of limbo is difficult to live with. I don't like the woman that she's become. I don't think it's possible to repair our relationship right now even if we both wanted to. I enjoy my newfound free time and I don't want to give it back. And yet, she's still the first and last thing I think about every day. I'm still attached to her words and actions. I still behave as if I'm trying to impress her or influence her thinking. I miss her very much.

If anyone with fresh wounds is reading this, the only thing I can say is that I don't think detachment is something you can actively work on to accelerate. All of the advice given by the vets on this board encourage newcomers to detach and start living your life for yourself. This *IS* good advice, but I think the detachment aspect is more a of "fake it until you make it" thing. Your feelings don't need to dictate your actions.

True detachment seems to come automatically when enough time has passed. When I think about old girlfriends that caused me serious heartbreak, I'm fully detached. I don't care where they are or what they're up to and nothing about them influences my current thoughts or behaviors. But this isn't the case with my W right now. And despite all of the energy I expend trying to move on, I think there is a part of me that needs to remain in heartbreak mode for a little longer.

[TBSakaJ9]

C - My XW introduced my girls to her new BF as well. She asked me if I wanted to meet him and I declined. I told her that as their mother I trust that she will look out for our D's and only bring men into their lives that will be a positive impact. If your not ready to meet him then don't, I was not ready to meet my XW's BF and while it doesn't really bother me too much I assume if he sticks around then I will meet him at one of our daughters activities. They have been exclusively dating for several months now though and that still has not happened.

I don't think it is selfish on your part but as you know there is nothing you can do about it. I think at this point in time you do what is best for your kids and for me that means a cordial R with him whenever we meet. I don't want to make it difficult for my kids and I never ask them questions about mommy's BF. If he ever gets brought up in conversation (which is very rarely) I will just listen to what they are saying and let them know "That it sounds like fun" or "That is nice"....something like that.

Hang in there......I feel your pain.

[OneArt]

I see a lot of maturity and introspection into what you are saying. I agree. It takes time. Only time. But be a great parent and responsible role model in the meantime, as it sounds like you are doing.

[ovrrnbw]

2 years? Oh my god...

Have you ever just told her this is just plain wrong? You're married and should be acting like it or getting divorced?

You have no formal separation agreement? I see it says nothing filed.

I've been in limbo for 5 months with zero kids but how do you kids tell their friends that their folks are married but mom dates other men?? I'm going to read up on your sitch this evening.

This is crazy and I'm so sorry for you. I guess it's time to reread the detachment links. Have you pursued and let her know you're still interested at all this year?

[ovrrnbw]

And the OM, what a piece of trash, JFC.

[Chris73]

Have you ever just told her this is just plain wrong? You're married and should be acting like it or getting divorced?

I've been seriously considering it. I know I can't do anything to change her behavior, but I'd really like to be blunt in our next session and tell her that I don't condone (or agree with) what she's doing as it pertains to the kids and OM. Frankly I think she's being selfish. She wants to include everyone in her life together because it's easier for her. Having to keep our kids and the OM on separate schedules is difficult. But as far as I'm concerned that's what she should be doing. The kids have only been dealing with the "new normal" of living in two places for about 8 months and I think it's too soon to introduce another person into the mix.

You have no formal separation agreement? I see it says nothing filed.

There's no legal separation in our state, but we did write up a formal separation agreement and had it notarized. The underwriter for my mortgage refi required this.

... how do you kids tell their friends that their folks are married but mom dates other men??

I don't know how they handle it when they're not with me. We've told them that mom and dad are not married anymore and are just good friends. Neither of us have worn our wedding rings for over a year. W insists that she and OM are never amorous in front of the kids and OM is never described as anything other than "mommy's friend"...but I don't buy it. My son is smart enough to know that he's more than just a friend.

Have you pursued and let her know you're still interested at all this year?

No, not at all. Our relationship is pretty much reduced to business partner status. We discuss the kids and almost nothing else. All the feelings I have I pretty much keep to myself.

It's a difficult situation to be in. I don't want to get divorced, but sometimes I feel like finalizing the end of the marriage is the right thing to do.

[ovrrnbw]

Yea I don't know but it sounds like you need to give her a kick in the rear if you know what I mean. Is there any way to shake things up?

[Gordie]

Chris73

So good to hear from you

Was just in the poconos in your neck of the woods

Agree you have to fake detachment until you make it

Cannot be forced

Only you know your boundaries

When my w got in a serious R and introduced the kids to OM

I was depressed

And then I was angry

And then insisted we get divorced

Limbo without OM was ok

Limbo with OM was unbearable

I went dark and really stopped interacting with her

All while still cohabitating

When the d was about to go final

She dropped the D and the OM

It is still complicated but getting better

Not saying you should do the same

Just wanted to share what happened to me

[Phoenix9]

Chris73

So good to hear from you

Was just in the poconos in your neck of the woods

Agree you have to fake detachment until you make it

Cannot be forced

Only you know your boundaries

When my w got in a serious R and introduced the kids to OM

I was depressed

And then I was angry

And then insisted we get divorced

Limbo without OM was ok

Limbo with OM was unbearable

I went dark and really stopped interacting with her

All while still cohabitating

When the d was about to go final

She dropped the D and the OM

It is still complicated but getting better

Not saying you should do the same

Just wanted to share what happened to me

Gordie,

I’m so sorry. I’m sorry I acted like an ass yesterday. I’m sorry I lashed out. And I’m sorry you had to endure your version of hell.

[MoveFrwd]

Chris - long time, no see.
A couple questions for you.

On the flip side, I've dipped my toes in the dating pool a few times and felt very uncomfortable. I've met women with kids in similar situations as mine and there's a temptation there to move quickly into a new relationship. But I think it's primarily for the convenience of having someone to lighten the parenting load and provide comfort during the lonely times. And that's not a good enough reason for me to introduce a new person into my kids' lives. If I start a new relationship with someone I want it to be because I really like them, not because they can make my life easier. So I think the dating thing will remain on hold for a while.

In my opinion, there is no rush to introduce a new person into your kid's lives. So I wouldnt worry about meeting people for "convenience". I think you will have plenty of time to get to know someone and really identify that they are a good match before you bring your kids in. Im just curious what exactly you are waiting for in order to consider dating further? What trigger will help you to identify that "it's time"?

I still love her very much. And it's extremely hard to admit that to myself when I consider all of the crappy things that she's done to sabotage our relationship and disrespect me. But when all my defenses are down, that's the raw truth. I'm not over it.

[snip]I don't like the woman that she's become. [snip]

Im also curious what exactly you love about her. At this point, is it simply the memory you love? The good times in the past? Or is it still the person that she is now?

This feeling of limbo is difficult to live with.

At this time, what is your reason to not file for divorce? Not saying that you should or shouldnt. But Im curious what it is that you want to hang on to right now. To me, you are keeping yourself in this limbo state. Maybe it's a divorce decree that will help "set you free"?

[Chris73]

Hi Amoafwl. Thanks for the great (and difficult) questions. I'll try my best to answer them...

Im just curious what exactly you are waiting for in order to consider dating further? What trigger will help you to identify that "it's time"?

Frankly, spending time with other women felt akward to me for a bunch of reasons. The obvious one is that during more intimate times I felt like I was cheating on my W. But also, unlreated to the lingering feelings for my W, it felt like too much work. Trying to navigate the "getting to know you" phase with one or two women while balancing work and home schedules as a newly single dad was exhausting. Mabye that will all change if/when I meet someone who I really like. But for now I think I need to put my effort and energy into my kids and my own personal improvement. Not sure what will trigger a change in my mindset. I guess I'll know it when it happens...

Im also curious what exactly you love about her. At this point, is it simply the memory you love? The good times in the past? Or is it still the person that she is now?

No, you're right. It's the memories and the idea of what our relationship was supposted to be that is triggering these feelings. It's also our connection to the kids. We're forced to communicate a lot in order to co-parent effectively, and we're always cordial towards each other. So it feels like things aren't so different than they were before. Not sure if I'm even making sense here...

At this time, what is your reason to not file for divorce? Not saying that you should or shouldnt. But Im curious what it is that you want to hang on to right now. To me, you are keeping yourself in this limbo state. Maybe it's a divorce decree that will help "set you free"?

I grapple with this often. I believe that the primary reason that she's not pushing for divorce is because she would lose my medical insurance. So whenever I feel like I should push for it I always second guess the reasoning. Is it for closure? Is it for spite? There's no quantifiable benefit for me. I fear that filing will either anger her and/or send mixed messages (i.e. "I don't want a divorce, but I'm filing anyway.")

[MoveFrwd]

I dont really have much time to post. But this jumped out at me...

So whenever I feel like I should push for it I always second guess the reasoning. Is it for closure? Is it for spite? There's no quantifiable benefit for me.

What about this?

The obvious one is that during more intimate times I felt like I was cheating on my W.

[NicoleR]

Chris, I can relate a lot to what you're writing. I will write more as soon as possible. I admire your patience and willingness to live in this state for so long. It's like torture in many ways but it does appear to be the last and final shot at preventing divorce and it's hard to know when to finally draw the line.

[ovrrnbw]

I admire your patience too but you do need a jolt. Things have to change, and you can't wait to see what happens with her. I may be the biggest hypocrite in the world too b/c I may be in your shoes in a couple years, who knows.

Going no contact really helped me and my situation the last couple of weeks. Unfortunate that I had to break it yesterday but I'm going back to it tomorrow since I did talk to my WW today.

[Chris73]

I'm sure it's probably on a sticky somewhere but can someone describe the dynamics of going dark while co-parenting?

[Chris73]

...this jumped out at me...

So whenever I feel like I should push for it I always second guess the reasoning. Is it for closure? Is it for spite? There's no quantifiable benefit for me.

What about this?

The obvious one is that during more intimate times I felt like I was cheating on my W.

Yes, that's definitely something. Logically I tell myself that a legal document confirming the end of our marriage shouldn't make a difference in how I feel about moving on with someone new. But maybe just the effort involved in finalizing the divorce will bring a level of closure. IDK...

[ovrrnbw]

I'm sure it's probably on a sticky somewhere but can someone describe the dynamics of going dark while co-parenting?

I'd say make it super simple. Do you have a schedule of when the kids are where? Stick to that. Tell her that you will stick to that unless there is an EMERGENCY or other agreed upon event.

How about using the kids as a proxy? Do your kids have cell phones? If so, they can coordinate. Then, you just don't talk to her.

[ovrrnbw]

And I have to say I hate the phrase "co-parenting". You aren't parenting together. You're each doing it on your own and it's going to be more difficult b/c neither parent owes the other parent jack.

[JRuss]

You can certainly "parent together" with an ex. But you need to not still think you're in love with her for it to be anything but painful. But if you're really done -- really detached -- it's easy and far better for the kids.

[TBSakaJ9]

To me parenting together or co-parenting or whatever you want to call is not that hard but as JRuss indicated being detached makes it easier.

I don't contact my XW for anything outside of stuff related to the kids. We have a Google calendar established with all of their activities on it so when it is your week to have them we both know where they need to be. The only conversation I have with my XW during the week might be something related to school or some other random question that may come up. Other than that I see her for about 5 min during kid drop off, exchange some minimal pleasantries and out the door I go. Sometimes I even meet her in the driveway and she doesn't even have to get out of the car it is the quick.

[JRuss]

I share pictures with mine, relate the odd "this cool/cute thing happened while they were with me" via text, and she does the same. Once a quarter or so, we have lunch to talk about how we think the kids are doing with the divorce and otherwise. We'll usually talk for a few minutes on drop offs/pickups, but mine are of the age now where we do most of our switches by picking them up from school, and I don't see her in those instances.

She can still be weird and prickly and at times is hopelessly not self-aware in her texts or e-mails, and I just ignore those.

The kids like that we are civil and collaborative, so that's what I try to do. If I loved her still, I don't think I'd be able to do it -- at least not well or without pursuit -- so I'm beyond glad I don't have to try to pull that off.

[AnotherStander]

I share pictures with mine, relate the odd "this cool/cute thing happened while they were with me" via text, and she does the same. Once a quarter or so, we have lunch to talk about how we think the kids are doing with the divorce and otherwise. We'll usually talk for a few minutes on drop offs/pickups, but mine are of the age now where we do most of our switches by picking them up from school, and I don't see her in those instances.

The kids like that we are civil and collaborative, so that's what I try to do.

Yes, this is largely how my XW and I are in regards to the kids as well (although our pickups are at our houses). I think most LBS's have to "go dark" for a while just to help themselves get over their WAS, but eventually most of us settle into this kind of a "peaceful coexistence" routine.

If I loved her still, I don't think I'd be able to do it -- at least not well or without pursuit -- so I'm beyond glad I don't have to try to pull that off.

Agreed, you do have to "get over" your feelings for your XW before this kind of a setup can work smoothly.

[Chris73]

Thanks all. So maybe I'm a little further along in this detachment thing than I thought.

The co-parenting situation that we have is very much like the ones described above. My W and I are in contact with each other about once/week on the average. Exchanges are quick, mostly over txt, and always revolve around the kids. In-person kid exchanges only happen once every 2 weeks on a Saturday afternoon. Otherwise, school drop offs and pick ups act as the go-between. In person, we are cordial to each other but I almost never talk to her about what's going on in my life. There have been times when she's related details about things going on with her. I listen and acknowledge but I don't comment much and I never offer any opinion unless she asks for one. We meet with a family counselor once/month to discuss the kids, but there has been no discussion about our relationship/marriage for over a year now.

I suppose this is about as dark as I can get with her. I mean, let's be honest, I really don't have a choice anyway. She decided to leave the marriage, move out, and have the kids live with her part-time. Other than litigating for more custody than I have now, there isn't much else for me to do. The feelings I still have for her pop up on a regular basis but I never let them show. As far as she's concerned, I'm moving on and no longer pursuing. I'm sure deep down she knows that I'm not happy with the way things turned out.

[slater]

Chris, thanks for coming back with an update! I followed your sitch pretty much from its beginning because BD was about the same time as mine (April 2016) and I felt the same way you did for the longest time...I remember you saying at one point that you weren't buying it, that your wife was full of $hit because you knew her so well (at the time). I felt the same way to some extent, knew my wife, although a WAS (not WW), thought she was putting on a good front but never thought she had the resolve to carry through...well, 2+ years later, living as a single parent much like you. She proved me wrong...I often want to tell her that, and say congrats, good job, you proved me wrong, now look at things! But I do think we both underestimated our wives, these women are either very stubborn or just plain done (or both). With young children, I will never understand it (in the absence of adultery, abuse, alcoholism, etc., which didn't exist in our sitches), it doesn't make alot of sense. The financial stress it has caused, the turmoil and the effect on the children, the stuff our children are necessarily denied, is hard to reconcile with someone not being as "happy" as they might otherwise be or think they should be...and I'm not all that convinced that my wilfe is any happier, she apparently was dating someone for a bit but appears to again be single.

As far as I can tell, that's the big difference between your sitch and mine, your ex-wife is with OM and has been for some time, having introduced the kids and all that, that hasn't yet happened on my end. I too have dated here and there but nothing too serious and no real interest for whatever reason. I would still reconcile if she was so willing but I do feel with the amount of time that has passed, I don't feel the same way. I'm not certain if she knows anymore that I would consider reconciliation. She might in fact believe I have moved on, I show no real interest. And on my end, I'm not thinking about her nearly as much as in year 1 and can spend time with her and the kids without getting super angry later while alone.

Recently, for the first time since BD, about 2 months ago, I just started being nicer to her, not "going dark" anymore, which I did for almost 1 year (and I'm talking about not even answering texts, numerous texts, for months, like nothing), turning down an invitation or two to hang out, etc. I let no cake-eating happen, with the kids or otherwise. We have 50/50. But after two years, that wasn't working, it just wasn't. And now we are in a much better place. Certainly no indication of reconciliation or even second thoughts (unless I'm really looking, really stretching) but it has only been a couple months. I fully expect she's wondering what's going on after a year or so of nothing. It's been a real 180. But again, if I was aware of OM, which I'm pretty sure doesn't exist right now, I would not have changed all that much from the no contact and shortness (sometimes rudeness because of the anger) that prevailed for so many months.

So we will see what happens, if anything. I'm in no rush to meet someone new, especially not to make life as a single parent easier. And she doesn't seem to be too interested in other men either, she never once mentioned the guy she was with and certainly didn't introduce the kids (only heard about it after it was over from a mutual friend).

I am still cautious about saying or doing anything that would let her know how I really feel because she had not said or done anything to show me that feels differently than she did two years ago. She has a couple times in the past 2 months revealed a familiar smile, a flirty smile, but that's it, she's very careful to tie the kids to all communication by text or email (although she has told me a few personal things lately about her day-to-day life...work, fitness stuff, what her friends are up to, etc.).

Anyway Chris, I thought you (and AnotherStander and Gordie) were (are) the great DB'ers on her (along with Maika and Joseph who are about a year behind us), one or more of you guys will find your ex-wife knocking on your door one day, of that I'm sure, and you will have a decison to make. For you, I expect yours will once the dude with the older kids fizzles out. I'm not saying this to give you any false hope because I know you are probably past that by now, but blended families are usually an epic failure. It's just not the same in my experience, having dated girls with kids from previous marriages (before this most recent relationship...we have 3 kids) and with many friends that have divorced and hooked up, usually temporarily, with divorced women with kids. There is a palpable difference felt as between biological children/parents and step-children/step-parents, both by parent to kids and kids to parent.

I thought your question above was about not wanting to go dark, but maybe you do and just don't know how to go about it with young children. I can tell you it is possible, but it wasn't working for me. She kept reaching out but there was no chance of any emotional reconnection.

[JRuss]

Sounds to me like you're doing well, Chris.

I went back and thought about my time line, and I first realized something was wrong in the Spring of 2014. I didn't get the official BD until almost a year later, so March 2015. So I'm now almost 3.5 years post-BD, and a full 4.5 years since I knew there was something bad happening. You're pretty much on a similar trajectory, most likely. You'll get there.

It might be out of place to say it on this site (devoted, as it is, to reconciliation), but don't underestimate sex and its healing powers. I am not talking about jumping right into a relationship with the first willing partner, but I'd be lying if I said getting it on with somebody knew who was really into it didn't jump start the healing.

[TBSakaJ9]

Isn't there a song called Sexual Healing???????

[NicoleR]

Hi Chris, I still haven't been able to read all of your thread but it does serve as a good example of how long these things can go on without any resolve. I guess one final hope would be if you decide that's enough, file for divorce, and suddenly your wife wakes up and realizes she's losing everything and finally wants to save the marriage. If she's in another relationship and that relationship is going well then she may not be inclined to save the marriage though. I guess in some cases there's really not much we can do. I look forward to following your next steps. I hope you soon gain some clarity and feel there's a clear path forward.

[sandi2]

I apologize if I have previously sent you the post by a former member explaining DBing detaching. I like this shorter version.


Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.

[AnotherStander]

Thanks all. So maybe I'm a little further along in this detachment thing than I thought.

The co-parenting situation that we have is very much like the ones described above. My W and I are in contact with each other about once/week on the average. Exchanges are quick, mostly over txt, and always revolve around the kids. In-person kid exchanges only happen once every 2 weeks on a Saturday afternoon. Otherwise, school drop offs and pick ups act as the go-between. In person, we are cordial to each other but I almost never talk to her about what's going on in my life. There have been times when she's related details about things going on with her. I listen and acknowledge but I don't comment much and I never offer any opinion unless she asks for one. We meet with a family counselor once/month to discuss the kids, but there has been no discussion about our relationship/marriage for over a year now.

I suppose this is about as dark as I can get with her. I mean, let's be honest, I really don't have a choice anyway. She decided to leave the marriage, move out, and have the kids live with her part-time. Other than litigating for more custody than I have now, there isn't much else for me to do. The feelings I still have for her pop up on a regular basis but I never let them show. As far as she's concerned, I'm moving on and no longer pursuing. I'm sure deep down she knows that I'm not happy with the way things turned out.

You do sound pretty detached Chris, all of that sounds great! Spot on as far as listening to her about personal things but not offering up anything in return. Still having feelings for her, well of course you do. I doubt that ever goes completely away. I still do for my XW on some level. Not to the point where I'm pining away for recon, but I still have some love for her and respect her.

I felt the same way to some extent, knew my wife, although a WAS (not WW), thought she was putting on a good front but never thought she had the resolve to carry through...well, 2+ years later, living as a single parent much like you. She proved me wrong...I often want to tell her that, and say congrats, good job, you proved me wrong, now look at things! But I do think we both underestimated our wives, these women are either very stubborn or just plain done (or both).

Yeah add me into that mix as well, LOL! I don't think I thought we'd ever really end up D'd, I thought we'd bounce back. And now, I think even if my XW was dying to recon she'd never say so because she is just that stubborn. I think to her it would be admitting she was wrong to friends and relatives and wouldn't be worth it because of that (even though I doubt anyone would care).

With young children, I will never understand it (in the absence of adultery, abuse, alcoholism, etc., which didn't exist in our sitches), it doesn't make alot of sense. The financial stress it has caused, the turmoil and the effect on the children, the stuff our children are necessarily denied, is hard to reconcile with someone not being as "happy" as they might otherwise be or think they should be...and I'm not all that convinced that my wilfe is any happier, she apparently was dating someone for a bit but appears to again be single.

Very similar to my sitch as well. My XW and I collectively had an impressive income, we really wanted for nothing. I would stop short of saying we were rich but we were quite well off. Now? Well I make more than she does and it's been a struggle. I haven't put money into savings since BD. She was never very good at budgeting so I know she's got to be struggling too. I just mentioned in another thread that per what my daughters have said she is still suffering with sadness and depression. I don't know what she thought she would gain through S and D, but it doesn't sound like she found it. But I don't know, maybe she really is happier this way.

I would still reconcile if she was so willing but I do feel with the amount of time that has passed, I don't feel the same way. I'm not certain if she knows anymore that I would consider reconciliation. She might in fact believe I have moved on, I show no real interest. And on my end, I'm not thinking about her nearly as much as in year 1 and can spend time with her and the kids without getting super angry later while alone.

You never know what might happen. I have a friend that reconciled with his XW after being divorced 10 years!!! They've been remarried for 3 years now I think. I'm not sure what the situation was that brought them back together, I'll have to ask him. Not sure if you've read the Married Man's Sex Life Primer but in it he talks about how you're at a distinct advantage with your W/ XW because at some point she was attracted to you enough to want to be married to you. You were her "type". There might be a lot of women out there that think you are too tall or too short or too hairy or too hairless or whatever, but to her you struck the right balance. So even though she walked away, you ARE still her "type". Chances are actually better she'll be attracted back to you some day then they are that she'll find another "you" out there.

I am still cautious about saying or doing anything that would let her know how I really feel because she had not said or done anything to show me that feels differently than she did two years ago. She has a couple times in the past 2 months revealed a familiar smile, a flirty smile, but that's it, she's very careful to tie the kids to all communication by text or email (although she has told me a few personal things lately about her day-to-day life...work, fitness stuff, what her friends are up to, etc.).

Well don't show your cards, but hey, it's been long enough that you might flirt a little and see how she responds. You can always pull back again. No harm as long as you don't have any expectations.

Anyway Chris, I thought you (and AnotherStander and Gordie) were (are) the great DB'ers on her (along with Maika and Joseph who are about a year behind us), one or more of you guys will find your ex-wife knocking on your door one day, of that I'm sure, and you will have a decison to make.

Thank you, that's very kind of you! And you have lumped me in with some great DB'ers And I agree, I have a feeling that some day some or maybe even all of us will be surprised to find our WAS's showing interest again. Unfortunately they usually wait so long that we well and truly have moved on, and allowing them back in seems almost as impossible as letting them go seemed before.

[TBSakaJ9]

I can honestly say that I would have a very, very, very, very hard time taking my XW back whenever I think about it my initial response is not a chance in hell. I don't know that I could really ever 100% honestly forgive her for everything she has done.

[Gordie]

Chris73

Sounds to me like you are doing better with the detachment

Than you indeed are giving yourself credit

Healing as you know takes time

And you were married for a long time

So give yourself a break

None of this follows a timeline

Particularly getting over the ex

And feeling ready for another R

Follow your conscience

[slater]

AnotherStander, thanks for your comments two weeks ago (I'm bad at visiting here more frequently). It's nice to hear that others have had the same experiences (or are still having the same experiences). My ex continues to extend herself but still oscillates including suggesting from time to time, in subtle ways, that the kids are happier now than before. I don't buy it for a second and feel as though she's trying to convince herself as much as me, but I don't engage, usually just acknowledge the suggestion, and always resist the urge to say anything to remind her that all kids would be immeasurably happier with both parents in their lives on a full-time basis.

And thanks for suggesting Married Man's Sex Life Primer, some interesting reading there it seems, especially the part about type and trying to find another you. I was able to find an excerpt online but have now ordered the book from Amazon.

[joejoe1]

Chris,

Update buddy!

[Chris73]

Hi Everyone. Not much new to report. Things continue to move forward for everyone.

No discussion of filing yet. I know my STBX isn't in a hurry to start that process. I had planned to bring it up in our last family therapy session, but most of the focus was on S10 and his challenges with the transition to two homes. It's interesting to see her reaction to him not "thriving" like she insisted would happen. I try very hard not to contribute anything to the conversation that would only serve to lay blame. It's a bit of a rough patch for him, but he's doing ok.

The most difficult part of the year is fast approaching. Thanksgiving marks the 2 year anniversary of our separation and both kids have birthdays in December. We've decided to swap holidays from what we did last year. Kids will be with me on Thanksgiving, Xmas eve, and Xmas morning, where the 4 of us will gather at my house for gifts. Then she will take them after breakfast for the rest of Xmas day. Birthdays still require a bit more planning.

Through it all we're very civil and courteous to each other. I find that I'm actually more sensitive to her point of view than I was when we were married. But I'm still very angry and I still spend time arguing with the wall and pretending she can hear me. My therapist describes this as the "Fallacy of Fairness" and insists that it's one of the most difficult cognitive distortions to deal with.

I've started re-reading NMMNG and I've found a few things that I relate to. Primarily: Extreme conflict avoidance, the constant need for validation from others, and disguising my true self due to toxic shame. It's all very enlightening (and quite humbling). And I'm starting to make small (but noticeable) transitions from living my life for my ex to living it for myself. Still a lot of work to do though.

GAL wise, my band is playing gigs, my podcast is back on a regular schedule, and I'm spending a lot of time converting our house into my house. Still not sure how long I'll continue to live there. It's a big house for the 50% of time when I'm the only one there.

I had a bit of a fling with a woman I met online, but it fizzled. Not sure if it was her or if I'm just not ready yet.

Guess that's about it. Life goes on...

[slater]

Chris, good to hear from you, thanks for the update. I like to see how others are doing that are the same timeframe since BD. Did you see that RDS posted an update and his ex-wife opened up to him about 1 year after divorce and after he met a new girl that he's really into? Go figure. There is another example of having to be truly detached before the ex will even consider putting herself out there (and also that it really is a 2 or 3 year marathon, not a sprint).

You sound to be doing okay as far as detachment goes, okay but not really there yet. Don't worry dude, I'm not either and my BD was April 2016. I'm convinced though it's only because of the children, especially since they are still young, not even close to being teenagers. That I think keeps you (LBS's) angry because you see the effects of it all the time and think about how much better it could be for the kids if the adults could only get their $hit together...at least that's what I feel I'm doing, because I've had other serious relationships end and never really had trouble moving on.

You didn't mention if your ex is still with the OM. I'm not sure if my ex has a guy on the go but we are spending more time together (with the kids) than we did in the first 2 years...but she still runs hot and cold...I do my best to remain steady, biting my tongue at times, etc. Hard to know what she's thinking, if anything (lol), but not gonna ask for obvious reasons.

[Chris73]

I'm convinced though it's only because of the children, especially since they are still young, not even close to being teenagers. That I think keeps you (LBS's) angry because you see the effects of it all the time and think about how much better it could be for the kids if the adults could only get their $hit together...

Thanks for making this point. I think 90% of my attachment to my ex is because of this. I am constantly reminded of how many parenting obstacles we could easily overcome if we were still together. Financially money is being wasted on 2 homes, 2 sets of furniture, 2 sets of clothes... money that could be used for college, retirement, vacations.

Emotionally, we no longer have the luxury of a family unit managed by two adults at the same time. The stress on everyone is doubled. Each parent has twice as much work to do and rarely can they rely on the other for immediate help. Plus there will always be things that one parent is better at than the other, but there's no way to "tag out".

As for the kids, they have to navigate the confusing landscapes of living in two places... "Where did I leave my new sneakers? How late am I allowed to stay up at Dad's house? I forget if I'm supposed to do my homework before or after dinner. Where will I be waking up on Christmas morning?" Grade school age children THRIVE on consistency and routine and no matter how hard co-parents try to maintain this, it's never the same as what you can achieve with an intact family.

You didn't mention if your ex is still with the OM. I'm not sure if my ex has a guy on the go but we are spending more time together (with the kids) than we did in the first 2 years...but she still runs hot and cold...I do my best to remain steady, biting my tongue at times, etc. Hard to know what she's thinking, if anything (lol), but not gonna ask for obvious reasons.

This is another confusing subject for me. My ex is definitely still with OM, but my kids mention him a lot less. Although as soon as I notice that he's been MIA for a while, the kids will bring him up again. The last time was about a week ago when OM and his daughter came to my ex's house for some sort of celebration of his daughter's birthday. It didn't ask for details. I didn't want any.

Sometimes I feel as if my ex is giving off mixed signals. Lately we've been getting along well. It's definitely more cordial than full blown friendship. I keep most of what's going on in my personal life close to the vest, as does she. But details leak out from time to time.

About a week ago I drove to my ex's house to drop off a library book that my S10 left at my house. When I got there she was trying to help him study for a vocabulary test the next day and having a difficult time getting him to concentrate. I offered to help and came up with a better way for him to study. I stayed for another half hour and finished studying with him while she helped D7 finish her shower. It felt very normal. It felt like the four of us were operating as a single unit again.

Surely a case could be made that this is my ex continuing with the cake eating that she started 2 years ago, but I don't really mind because ultimately I was able to help S10 get a 100 on his vocab test which would not have happened otherwise...

[Jim1234]

I am constantly reminded of how many parenting obstacles we could easily overcome if we were still together....

Emotionally, we no longer have the luxury of a family unit managed by two adults at the same time. The stress on everyone is doubled. Each parent has twice as much work to do and rarely can they rely on the other for immediate help. Plus there will always be things that one parent is better at than the other, but there's no way to "tag out".

Sometimes I feel as if my ex is giving off mixed signals. Lately we've been getting along well. It's definitely more cordial than full blown friendship.

Man, I get you regarding the obstacles that could be easily overcome if we were still together. This is one of the things I miss most... working together as a team for the benefit of the kids, me doing what I'm good at, and letting her do the things she's good at.

Mixed signals.... I'm trying to ignore them. Steve was right when he told me that when she wants to R, you will KNOW. Until then, I'm just going try to move along.

[Chris73]

Need some advice.

Back in January, my ex decided that she wanted to keep her engagement ring and took it with her when she moved out. I, in turn, removed the ring from our homeowner's insurance policy and never gave it a second thought.

Today she calls, frantic because the ring is lost and she wanted to make sure it was still insured. When I told her that I had removed it from the policy she freaked out and started crying. Obviously she was upset at the stress of losing the ring, but she started to get angry with me because I never told her that I'd removed it from the policy.

It's true that I didn't tell her. Honestly, it didn't even occur to me. I figured now that she has the ring in her possession it's on her to get it insured.

But now I feel like a jerk. I stayed calm and apologized. I told her, "I understand you're upset about losing the ring. Is there anything I can do to help?" She said no.

So I guess the advice I need is how to follow up with her on this. Even two years after our separation, it hurts my heart tremendously when she's upset. And my nice guy tendencies are making me feel guilty about it.

I don't want to start up an unnecessary confrontation by telling her that she should have insured it herself and that I shouldn't have to feel guilty about it. But I mean, after all, she's had 11 months to do it...

[DejaVu6]

Hi Chris. I don't think you should take ownership of this at all. You apologized. Good enough. You have done nothing wrong...drop the rope and let go of the guilt. She should have kept better track of it. Just my opinion. I'm sure others will give theirs.

[Davide]

Let it go.

You reacted fine, and this is really on her. Don't take ownership of her emotions and reactions.

Don't follow up. That is just pursuit on your part.

[AnotherStander]

I agree with DV and Davide. She moved out, she's cozy with OM, she took the ring from you. Yet she EXPECTS you to keep insurance on it? No, that dog don't hunt as we like to say in TX. It was very big of you to apologize and validate her feelings, you handled it perfectly. Nothing more is needed.

[Chris73]

Thanks everybody. I'm so grateful to have a place to vent about this stuff and get support.

[joejoe1]

Let me asked the obvious question. Why is she so worried about an engagement ring that you gave her if she is with OM? Seems to me she is holding on to something and if she is that frantic you have to get out of her way. You also need to ask yourself what did you do wrong. How can you even apologize for a position she put herself in?

If you bumped into her and knocked her down, you apologize. But if you are living your life and she creates a problem herself you validate and keep moving forward with your life. Your are absolutely right that she waited almost year to ask question about this ring, also she waited until she lost it. If she would not have lost if, would you have heard anything about it, most likely not. Don't take on needless burden, this is her bag to carry, let her. Stay out of her way and do go wagging your tail to get her attention, she's not reaching out to you to get sympathy, she was really trying to she if you were covering her A$% by continuing to carry her on your insurance.

Keep up the great work Chris. Her not being on your insurance, is her new reality. And if the OM was such a hot shot why is she so worried about a ring you gave her? Keep moving forward.

Onward and forward

[Chris73]

Thanks Joe. I guess I am finally learning how to handle these things. Even if my head and my heart are screaming inside I try to take a pause and ignore them when I respond to her. Doesn't always work, but it did in this case.

Why is she holding on to the ring?

She claims that she's saving the ring for when D7 grows up. I not sure why my grown up D7 is going to want a ring that symbolizes her parents failed attempt at marriage, but whatever. It's hers, she can do what she wants with it.

Perhaps a more accurate reason might be that the ring is an emergency money fund in case something happens to her business (she's self employed).

Could it also be that she's saving the ring because she just doesn't want to let go completely? Deep down I consider that wishful thinking, but I don't really think so.

[Chris73]

Sometimes I feel like one of the kids from the Nightmare on Elm Street movie who are so afraid of their dreams that they don't want to go to sleep!

Not that I'm necessarily afraid of my dreams, but the last 4 nights haven't been fun. Sometimes I dream about my ex and we're back together and happy. Other times she's doing her GGW routine. And sometimes she's angry with me. But regardless, waking up and realizing how much she is still on my mind is pretty depressing and it certainly doesn't get me all psyched up to get out of bed and start my day!

Today we had a quick meeting to discuss the holiday and birthdays (both kids have birthdays in December). The original plan was for her to come to my house xmas morning so we could do gifts together. But now she's decided that she'd rather not do that at all. She wants to do two completely separate xmases and other than one or two big things that the kids want, we will be buying gifts separately.

As it stands, the four of us will still share a meal on both kids' birthdays, but that's about it.

I suppose I'm in the "acceptance" stage now because I didn't put up any kind of fight. I mean, what is there really to debate about? She can't make it any more clear that she doesn't want to have anything to do with me, so why protest? It's just such a hard pill to swallow, especially since my thoughts linger too much on the past and how different things were only a few years ago.

There are plenty of people who insist that I shouldn't feel responsible for the decisions she's made to cheat on me and abandon the marriage. That it doesn't really have anything to do with me and that there was nothing I could have done to change her mind.

But there's always that little voice in my head that reminds me of how many opportunities I had over the course of our marriage to show her how much I valued her and our relationship. And every time I missed one of those opportunities, a little more of her love/respect for me leaked out of her bucket, until one day it was bone dry.

I suppose this is all great mirror work for me in the hopes of eventually starting a relationship with a new person. But right now I just wish I had a time machine...

[ovrrnbw]

I suppose I'm in the "acceptance" stage now because I didn't put up any kind of fight. I mean, what is there really to debate about? She can't make it any more clear that she doesn't want to have anything to do with me, so why protest? It's just such a hard pill to swallow, especially since my thoughts linger too much on the past and how different things were only a few years ago.

It's time to stop worrying about her, and to worry about your own life and how to have a great one.

There are plenty of people who insist that I shouldn't feel responsible for the decisions she's made to cheat on me and abandon the marriage. That it doesn't really have anything to do with me and that there was nothing I could have done to change her mind.

You're responsible for your part of the marriage failure, but you're not responsible for her actions to step outside of the marriage. True, a bad marriage often leads to this type of things, but that neither justifies or causes it to happen. A WW/WH still chooses to do wrong.

But there's always that little voice in my head that reminds me of how many opportunities I had over the course of our marriage to show her how much I valued her and our relationship. And every time I missed one of those opportunities, a little more of her love/respect for me leaked out of her bucket, until one day it was bone dry.

That's a NGS tendency, but let go of what you cannot control and fulfill yourself by spending that energy in a positive place.

Those dreams stink, but they will fade. I've noticed mine really faded as I gave up on worrying about everything all the time. Yours will fade too.

[Chris73]

Ex continues to make it clear that she wants no part of the four of us spending any time together.

In the last post I mentioned that she squashed the plans to do a gift exchange on xmas morning.

Last week she told me that the RC car we had planned to buy together for S9's birthday had already been bought by OM and that now we needed to find something else. I told her that I didn't think a $170 RC car from OM was an appropriate gift and that it was inconsiderate of her to put the onus on me to think of another gift for him after a month of trying to figure out what he might like. I also told her that I would be getting a gift for him by myself, which (I'm sure) freed her up to tell S9 that the RC car is from OM *AND* her.

Today is D7's birthday. Last night they went out to dinner with OM and OM's D16 and then went back to her house for gifts and cake. I won't see her until tomorrow, but we have lots of fun planned for the weekend.

In a way she's doing me a favor by forcing me to detach further. I understand that her primary fear is that if the four of us spend too much time together it will give the kids a false impression that we're getting back together. But I think that having OM in her life makes it easier for her to say no to any plans I suggest.

I still have yet to run into OM. I don't even know what he looks like. I'm dreading this day and have spent hours fantasizing about what I might say to him when that day comes. S9's basketball games start soon so I'm sure it's coming...

Meanwhile, GAL efforts are going well. I gave up on the idea of dating for now. Really not ready.

My house is really coming along. Still a lot of work to do but lately I've been walking around thinking, "this is starting to feel like MY house instead of OUR house".

Lately I've got the bug to start cooking more often. I'm going to invest in a good wooden cutting board and a couple decent knives. I like the idea of perfecting a skill that can make other people happy... and impress the ladies when the time comes!

[ovrrnbw]

Has your W filed for D or separation?

Here's what you say to OM if and when you ever see him: Nothing.

Leave out how it's inappropriate of OM to get your kid a toy. Your W being with OM is inappropriate, and that's the real issue. You gave her the satisfaction of knowing that her actions still bother you. Why?

How do you know that your kids were out with OM to dinner?

[Chris73]

Hi overnbw!

Has your W filed for D or separation?

There is no legal separation in our state, but nothing has been filed. It's really just a convenience for her because she's still on my medical due to a cancer scare earlier this year. It's definitely cake eating. My decision to file or not file is partly based on my nice guy syndrome, but also because I'm bit worried about how she'll react. Up until now, all the decisions we've made regarding splitting up assets and custody have been cordial and without much debate. I don't think that surprising her with papers out of nowhere would be a good idea. So I've been trying to broach the subject of filing no fault and just splitting the lawyer fees, but I'm being a bit of a wuss about it. I should probably make it my new year's resolution to get the process started...

Here's what you say to OM if and when you ever see him: Nothing.

That would be a perfect strategy for me, but let suppose that the first time I meet him is in a public setting in front of the kids and he extends a hand to shake. Do I just leave him hanging? Who'd end up looking like the a-hole? Certainly not him...

You gave her the satisfaction of knowing that her actions still bother you. Why?

I guess it's partly because we've been working together so well with the co-parenting. It's all very cordial. And we had agreed on a really good plan for the holidays and gifts. Then she springs this on me and it riled me up!

How do you know that your kids were out with OM to dinner?

I FaceTime with my kids every night when they're not with me. That night D7 told me that he went to dinner with them... and that he was still there while I was talking to her.

[STH17]

My decision to file or not file is partly based on my nice guy syndrome, but also because I'm bit worried about how she'll react.

Worried about how she'll react is NGS, not "but also". Non-NGS is: however she reacts, I'll handle it.

Here's what you say to OM if and when you ever see him: Nothing.

That would be a perfect strategy for me, but let suppose that the first time I meet him is in a public setting in front of the kids and he extends a hand to shake. Do I just leave him hanging? Who'd end up looking like the a-hole? Certainly not him...

Absolutely leave him hanging. You don't owe a handshake to him just because a hand is extended to you. Handshake means "nice to meet you." If that's what you want to say to him, then do it. But I think it's a good clear example of boundary setting to not shake his hand. Doesn't need to be a passive aggressive silence/ignoring. You could tell him you're not shaking his hand and then start talking to your kids "Hey who's hungry? Let's get some food!". Same as going dark on a wayward spouse. Cordially(optional?) end the conversation and go be awesome. I also wonder if you could touch his wrist with two fingers and lower his hand back down. "Yeeah I'm gonna pass on that.." Or a wave of your hand with a simple "No thanks". If he insists, you say "I said no thanks". You'll handle it
I wouldn't worry about looking like an a-hole, but I could understand giving consideration for your kids possibly feeling like they have to pick sides with you and him if they see you shunning him. Hopefully they just see an awesome man/father setting healthy boundaries for himself, but they will form their own opinions either way.

You gave her the satisfaction of knowing that her actions still bother you. Why?

I guess it's partly because we've been working together so well with the co-parenting. It's all very cordial. And we had agreed on a really good plan for the holidays and gifts. Then she springs this on me and it riled me up!

I actually think Chris handled this pretty well. You had a plan, she cut you out of it, and you made it clear you are not okay with that behavior. You established a boundary by not making a new plan with her for son's gift, committing to taking care of it by yourself. She had the opportunity to give your son a gift jointly with you, and she has now lost that opportunity. I do agree that the real issue is her being with OM, but I wouldn't bring her choice to be with him into this conflict which is about her supplanting you in the plans you had agreed upon. And while it may not help in DB, you are entitled to voice your opinion about the inappropriateness of OM getting son what was meant to be the crown jewel of the gifts you were giving son. I'd be angry too. He can buy him some socks. I think you did what you could here, and best now to just take care of getting a gift from only yourself as you said you would.

[Chris73]

Worried about how she'll react is NGS, not "but also". Non-NGS is: however she reacts, I'll handle it.

Gotta tell ya, this really hit home with me over the weekend. And it's slowing becoming my mantra.

This type of thinking is very difficult to adopt for me as I am ALWAYS concerned with how other people will react to my behavior. NGS 101 right? But the more I practice it, the more I realize how simple it is. And this statement really nails it: "However she reacts, I'll handle it." I LOVE this.

For the past 2 years every conversation with my ex has been difficult, but especially so after she moved out last Jan. Since then neither of us has uttered a word about the problems in our relationship or trying to work things out. But I still agonize about our interactions. It's such a fine line between being cold and being detached, but I'm getting better.

It's pretty easy if the conversation is administrative (shared costs, kid schedules, etc.), but sometimes she'll send me a picture of the kids doing something funny or cute and it's tough to know how to respond to those. Even harder is when the kids do something funny or cute when they're with me. Lately I've been keeping these to myself and not sharing them with her, but I feel kinda $hitty about it.

I suppose part of the problem is that I still think about her a lot. I can't fight those feelings, but I'm getting better at how I react to them. And lately I've gotten to the point where I rarely share anything with her anymore.

[harvey]

I suppose part of the problem is that I still think about her a lot. I can't fight those feelings, but I'm getting better at how I react to them. And lately I've gotten to the point where I rarely share anything with her anymore.

I think this is the way to go to detach. It's why I quit FB. Otherwise, it becomes a tit for tat of showing her hoq much fun the kids have with you. That makes it hard to detach. Now, I keep things to myself. Those moments are for me and my girls. She fired me as her husband, so she doesn't get to enjoy those moments.

[Chris73]

Wow, that was fun... (he says with the most amount of sarcasm he can muster).

My ex and I have been going to therapy monthly since July. I really don't know what to call the therapy. It's not marriage counseling because we don't talk about our relationship. It's not really family therapy either because our kids do not get involved in the discussion. At the beginning of the year, I was insistent that we continue our discussion about how to work together to ensure that the negative impact of the separation on the kids was minimal. In hindsight that wasn't the only reason.

Frankly, the thought of trying to keep my cool, validate her feelings, and still enforce my own boundaries in our post-separation discussions scared the h3ll out of me. My ex is an expert arguer. She finds exactly the right words at the right time to get her point across. This doesn't mesh well with my NGS and there weren't many fights during our relationship for this reason. I always felt intimidated. I would always think of the best things to say hours after the conversation was over. I would always cave and say, "you're right" out of guilt or simply because I wanted everything to smooth over quickly.

Because of all this, I sought the help of a moderator in the form of a marriage and family counselor. I know that my ex thought it was an unnecessary burden to attend these sessions. But to her credit, she attended them all regardless. The majority of the discussions centered around S10 and his issues adjusting to the split. D7 really hasn't shown any signs of stress, but S10 has some anxiety issues and I think pressures with school and friends were heightened because of the home life transitions.

Today was our last session of the year. My ex and I have made good progress with being able to support our kids emotionally from both sides and our communication is pretty good for the most part. Because of this, the therapist suggested that we come back in 8-10 weeks for a check-in.

But before the session ended, I said, "The one thing that I would like to bring up is that I think it's time we finalized our divorce. We've been separated for over 2 years and I would really like to get some closure on this." After this I added, "We've have done a great job so far with agreeing on how to split up the assets and custody, so I didn't want to just surprise you with papers in the mail. I thought we should start talking about it together."

I don't think my ex was prepared to hear this because the tears started almost immediately. The therapist pressed her for why she was upset. To which she responded that she is afraid of losing her health insurance.

Now, this was a PERFECT opportunity for my NGS to take over and say something like, "Well, I'd be ok with giving you some extra money to offset the cost." But I didn't. I just sat there and let her cry. I have no doubt that when the time comes she will ask for money. And that will be the time for me to think about how to respond.

Maybe there was more to her tears than just fear of losing health insurance. But I don't think it's regret. It's probably just the idea that the stop sign up ahead is finally visible in the distance, and it's a scary sight. Regardless, I didn't falter or waver and we agreed to revisit the discussion after the new year.

I wonder how long she would have continued to stay (lawfully) married to me if I didn't push for a divorce? With OM as a pretty regular fixture in her life, why wouldn't she want to move on like I do? Actually even more so than I do...?

Have to admit that I left the session feeling a little empowered. The idea of having that discussion 2 years ago made me want to vomit. Funny how time changes everything...

[LH19]

C: Wife why are you crying? Is it because you are responsible for the destruction of your family?

W: No it's because I won't have any health insurance. wahwahwahwah

Unbelievable!

[Chris73]

C: Wife why are you crying? Is it because you are responsible for the destruction of your family?

W: No it's because I won't have any health insurance. wahwahwahwah

Unbelievable!

To be fair, "partly" responsible. But the decision to give up and leave was all her.

It reminds me of the things I've read on these boards about the WW being selfish. I understand why, but it's odd to think that this wayward mindset is still dominating her emotions over 2 years later... and with a new man to boot.

[ovrrnbw]

I can't wait for her "relationship", if you can even call it that, to collapse after your divorce. She is out there. I'm so glad you didn't NGS her when she cried. She looks pathetic.

I hope you get what you are looking for.

[Chris73]

Happy New Year everyone!

Yesterday was the 1 year anniversary of my wife moving out of our house. She had asked me to take the kids to my mom's for the entire weekend so that she could move everything out. When we returned home that Sunday night it felt like we had been robbed. I sometimes worry about the impact that this memory will have on my kids. It wasn't like their mother had run off without a word, but I still think coming home to the only house you've ever known and finding your mother gone (and her stuff gone) is traumatic. Time will tell.

...just felt the need to observe this anniversary with the folks who would understand.

[doodler]

Below is an excerpt from the forward of a book. The last name of the author of the book is something like Miller.

“The kids will get over it.” So say the experts and cheerleaders for divorce. On that basis, many parents end perfectly good marriages that could have been saved with some effort.

Sustaining the Divorce Ideology requires that people don’t ask too many questions or voice too many objections. According to the Divorce Ideology, no-fault divorce just means that two adults who agree to divorce do not have to go through the elaborate charade of claiming that one part committed adultery.

In reality, many divorces take place against the will of one of the parties. The law takes sides with the party who wants the marriage the least, even if that person has committed adultery. That is how no-fault divorce demolished the presumption that marriage is permanent – it also smashed the presumption that marriage is sexually exclusive.

I totally agree with the statement that the law takes sides with the party who wants the marriage least. What really distressed me about the law is, although my sons where 11 and 13 at the time of the divorce (and about to turn 12 and 14), no one in the court system was willing to listen to my sons’ input regarding custody arrangements. I was given a variety of excuses, the most often repeated excuse was “they’ve found that the children need both parents.” I don’t disagree, but that doesn’t mean the children want a 50-50 split in parental time. My sons wanted, and still want, to stay “at home” with dad.

[ovrrnbw]

Below is an excerpt from the forward of a book. The last name of the author of the book is something like Miller.

“The kids will get over it.” So say the experts and cheerleaders for divorce. On that basis, many parents end perfectly good marriages that could have been saved with some effort.

Sustaining the Divorce Ideology requires that people don’t ask too many questions or voice too many objections. According to the Divorce Ideology, no-fault divorce just means that two adults who agree to divorce do not have to go through the elaborate charade of claiming that one part committed adultery.

In reality, many divorces take place against the will of one of the parties. The law takes sides with the party who wants the marriage the least, even if that person has committed adultery. That is how no-fault divorce demolished the presumption that marriage is permanent – it also smashed the presumption that marriage is sexually exclusive.

I totally agree with the statement that the law takes sides with the party who wants the marriage least. What really distressed me about the law is, although my sons where 11 and 13 at the time of the divorce (and about to turn 12 and 14), no one in the court system was willing to listen to my sons’ input regarding custody arrangements. I was given a variety of excuses, the most often repeated excuse was “they’ve found that the children need both parents.” I don’t disagree, but that doesn’t mean the children want a 50-50 split in parental time. My sons wanted, and still want, to stay “at home” with dad.

I guess we'll chalk this up to the decline in the moral fabric of society.

As for the kids, they can go where the want in my state, and no court can force them to do anything. At least that's how it was when my parents divorced 16 years ago. That excuse you posted is quite hilarious. I don't know that there's a better system out their, but our system sure could be improved.

[Chris73]

Thanks doodler. Found the book. Don’t think I have the stomach to read it tho...

[Gordie]

Chris,

Good to read your update

Not a great skiing year

But hope you and your kids are doing great

The tears about the HC

Yes it is still all about her

New Thread:

Still here. Still not detached...(Part 4)