Thanks AS! I look at what you share about your current life and it gives me great hope and strength to take my life by the horns and make it what I want it to be. You sound happy and content with your life and your R with your GF sounds healthy and full of life.
Yeah I am not trying to lose weight drastically. I don't have much to lose so I'd have to starve myself to get the 10 other pounds off lol. The weight loss is a combination of me getting physically active and changing my diet to improve my blood sugars and bring it under control.
W is definitely in her own world and I don't know what that's like or what she's going through. I am just trying to do the best for me right now.
Oh man! Thank you for posting that. I feel like I am reading my sitch, minus having a new baby just after BD.
You got it so right about what I want to say to my W - What the F%(K are you thinking???? Instead I am trying to pull back and give her tons of space and stay friendly, but not be her friend.
I have the similar issue about anger - how it's impacted the kids and will impact them for their life. I didn't sign up to be a part-time parent and the fact that I don't know what's going on for half their life is something I am having a hard time accepting. I know they miss me when they're with her and vice versa.
The 180s and the other DB techniques are good in the sense that they allow the LBS to discover themselves and not look weak and pathetic in front of the WW. But, you don't always know if they are working and when you're NC, it's even harder to gauge. But, the opposite of NC also doesn't work and so you're left between a boulder and a sledgehammer.
I think the only thing that I have come to realize is that I need to be my authentic self and figure out my depression issues. I have zero idea or hope that anything I do will bring her back to even try and recon - not saying if recon would restore the MR, which is a whole another ballgame. She hasn't even shown up for practice, forget the game, so it's pointless to worry about if we'll be able to rush the last five yards with seconds away from the game whistle.
I guess I am still bitter about the fact that I wasn't even given a chance. Everything I had suggested after BD was rejected and I feel like I was just discarded and disposed of.
And like you I don't think there is an OM, yet. I believe there was some EA stuff in the beginning before and around BD, but didn't last. I have no idea if there is someone in her life or not and I have no way of getting intel on that short of hiring a PI - which I am not going to waste money on.
I am sorry to hear that your W is still resolute in her decision. My W also suggested counseling for improving communications which reeked of 'divorce management' and so I didn't take her up on that offer.
How is dating life? You're 20 months out and do you feel like you're in a place where you can do it? Also, have you or her filed for D?
Thanks again for your post. I felt really sad reading it and I could totally feel all your emotions as you described them.
Thought I better move your reply to my post over to your thread so we don't clutter the thread of Chris73 and accelerate the intervention of Cadet to start a new thread (which I believe most on here secretly hate doing because it means no R yet)!
Thanks to you as well Maika, I have followed you closely because of your sitch and the similarities to mine...in particular the WAW, i.e. no infidelity at BD, which I believe makes us different and luckier I suppose (if you can call it that) than others for one main reason -- if you are satisfied that your ex is still single (or have no reason to believe she is seeing someone), then extending yourself more than what is recommended here doesn't leave you looking too pathetic in my view. Plus, although you may not recognize the current version of your wife, you still do know her best, at least for the first year or so after BD and maybe longer if you believe she is still kinda the same girl she was when together. Your temperature check a couple months ago was humbling to be sure, but it was partly because of the mixed signals your wife was sending and really, if you don't send out a feeler every now and again, how are you to know if she might be warming to you (because as we both know, she isn't likely to take that first step because another big difference between the WAS and WW is that the WAW feels justified in her decision as opposed to the guilt the WW must feel if there was an OM as BD...that is, she isn't likely to come back with true remorse and humble in the same way that Sandi2 says will happen with the WW, she will come back because she wants to put her family together again and thinks it may be worth another try, but NOT because she feels she wasn't justified in leaving. So your big temperature check may have been a shot to the ego but at least your wife knows you still care and so long as there is not an OM, you aren't Plan B, but probably (optimistically), Plan Not Yet.
My "dating" is just that at this point, dates. Nothing too serious and certainly not close to introducing anyone to the kids. And the reality is, I'm not too enthused about the women I meet, I find myself wondering how my kids will like her and compare her against the ex-wife. So I guess the answer to your question is 'no' but it's still nice to have dinner with someone or take in a movie. My indifference probably shows though because at least two women have asked if I thought I would be getting back together with my ex (it's funny, I think with small children everyone just assumes that eventuality...not so funny living it though because we know it's far from a certainty and probably better categorized as unlikely).
Having 50/50 custody is huge, which I have. Although it's tough to achieve any continuity with the kids, you just know that if you feel frustrated with having to send them off every 2 or 3 days, she feels that much more frustrated because she is responsible for the situation and has to know, at least early on, that she could have fixed it (I know, I know...she would tell her friends and family that we are responsible for the situation by our conduct during the relationship, but ultimately it does fall on the WAW especially where, as with your W and mine, they resist making any effort at every turn since BD).
It's amazing to me that ego and stubbornness can have such influence over these situations. Again, especially where no OM, at least part of the resistance has to be to avoid looking weak to family and friends, not appearing indecisive or unable to "make it" on her own. One would think the bigger picture would prevail because people just naturally forget and move on and are consumed with their own lives and problems, so if both sides are prepared to swallow just a little pride, you could put the family back together and hopefully keep it that way with the work you learned that needs to be done. Boggles the mind.
No D here, we were never married and that was a big issue for her, she raised it on BD and said she promised she never would, but did anyway. I think it plays a much bigger part than she is prepared to admit but obviously can't say that because then it becomes about her not getting a ring as the reason her family is no longer together. That doesn't sound as good as her other reasons. Don't get me wrong, her other reasons were valid concerns, but certainly nothing commensurate to what we are now dealing with...but as I said in my original post, once you get too far down this road, turning back becomes more difficult I think (even though DB preaches patience, at some point, you have to put yourself out there and make one last effort before it's too late...if only to satisfy yourself that you did what you could but for whatever reason(s), the universe had other plans.
Before this relationship (my current sitch), I use to date a women that was divorced with children and her ex-H wasn't by all accounts a very nice guy, cheated on her a few times and with a bad temper (he was a fighter pilot in the US Air Force, she would say he was a narcissist). Anyway, we still keep in touch and I just returned from the US of A and we got together, had dinner, and it was interesting to hear her perspective on my sitch. She said take it from me, keep fighting for your family, she said she wished she had fought harder knowing now what she didn't know back then when she left him. And while my relationship may not have been perfect and needed work, from what she told me when we were dating, it was much better than her marriage...and she still has regrets. The other thing she said that I found secretly comforting is that she found the market for single moms in their late 30's and early 40's pretty bleak, i.e. all the good men are married she said (and she is a very attractive women, now 45 and single again, she got remarried after we broke up but it only last about 5 years, she called their blended family an "epic failure").
That your new spouse doesn't feel the same way about your children is palpable and begins to strain the relationship.
Thanks again for responding Maika, now go ask your wife out to dinner...jk.
I am wondering if I should change my approach with her. Not with the aim of seeing if it leads to recon or anything, but just in generally to show her that I am a different person.
She predicted that I was going to remain angry with her and cut her out of my life - which is how I have survived in the past when close people have betrayed me. Unfortunately, that has happened and led me to built survival skills for emotional protection.
I don't get to see her often and I don't want to manufacture excuses where she sees me, but I think that if I can show her that I am not doing what she predicted, it might make her take a step back in her thinking. Also, I don't know how healthy it is for me to hold on to the anger and bitterness. I just need to find productive ways to let it go.
About not doing family events, I am completely with you on it. Even though it is about making the WAW feel loss of family time, as you mentioned in Chris's thread, it can come across as punitive in some ways. My kids bdays are coming up and we haven't discussed it yet. I am planning on doing something with them just with me, but I wonder if I should bring up doing something together. At this point, it would at least be for the sake of the kids and I know they would prefer that. I can swallow my pride and not wanting to do family time for their sakes and see how it goes.
I guess what I am asking you is if you would do some of these things differently now that you're 20 months out. Not saying if it would have changed anything in the sitch or made your W think differently, but if is the higher road to take here.
Part of me does want to punish her, no doubt. But, as you said, if I swallow some of my pride and anger, I wonder if it could lead to thawing of everything and allow her to see me in my new authentic self. This is all with zero expectations obviously.
This is such a minefield and in the case where there is no OM, I wonder if the LBS swallowing their pride first is the more prudent move to make.
if you don't send out a feeler every now and again, how are you to know if she might be warming to you (because as we both know, she isn't likely to take that first step because another big difference between the WAS and WW is that the WAW feels justified in her decision as opposed to the guilt the WW must feel if there was an OM as BD...that is, she isn't likely to come back with true remorse and humble in the same way that Sandi2 says will happen with the WW, she will come back because she wants to put her family together again and thinks it may be worth another try, but NOT because she feels she wasn't justified in leaving
Slater I could totally see this being my W. I have no proof of OM but I firmly believe she has flirted and potentially maybe a fling but not a serious partner. Knowing my W I couldn't see her showing and remorse because she feels justified in her actions. Looking back she was unhappy with everything in her life, the kids, the dogs, me, the house....IMO she felt like a rat in a cage.
So M what are your plans for the holidays? Are you doing something together as a family or will you be extending an invitation to your W to come together as a family?
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It's amazing to me that ego and stubbornness can have such influence over these situations. Again, especially where no OM, at least part of the resistance has to be to avoid looking weak to family and friends, not appearing indecisive or unable to "make it" on her own.
I don't think my W would jump off the boat even if it was the Titanic. Get D or die trying is her motto. I think it is even more of a long shot with all of her friends that are her enablers. It is like this circle of D, unhappy, middle aged ladies who go out partying at these middle aged bars and listen to 80's cover bands.
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The other thing she said that I found secretly comforting is that she found the market for single moms in their late 30's and early 40's pretty bleak, i.e. all the good men are married she said (and she is a very attractive women, now 45 and single again, she got remarried after we broke up but it only last about 5 years, she called their blended family an "epic failure").
I do think my W is in for a very rude awakening. I am not Brad Pitt but I am not chopped liver either. On the other hand though, being the father of 2 young girls, it scares the $hit out of me because I have no choice but to place total trust in her that she will not put them in a situation to be harmed. That if/when she meets someone else that she will take the necessary steps to ensure their safety.
My W does come from a family that has a history of sexual abuse. So I know everyone would say give her some credit, she wouldn't do that or that is your anger talking I do know that the history is real and the cycle hard to break.
My W's mom was sexual abused by her father and my W's step-father hid in her closest when she was in high school and tried to watch her undress. She also thinks he touched her in a swimming pool as well. My W's real dad is by all accounts a good guy but my W's mom and him got D around the same age as our children. So the pattern exists I just hope history doesn't repeat itself and my W is more self-aware.
Knowing my W I couldn't see her showing and remorse because she feels justified in her actions. Looking back she was unhappy with everything in her life, the kids, the dogs, me, the house....IMO she felt like a rat in a cage.
Yeah I don't see my W ever showing remorse. I know she feels guilt about how this is impacting the kids, but I am sure she feels justified in her actions. J - does your W have anger towards you?
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So M what are your plans for the holidays? Are you doing something together as a family or will you be extending an invitation to your W to come together as a family?
We haven't discussed any plans yet. I know cutting things close to the wire. I am leaning towards doing things together. I know that she would accept that. I am wondering if it's better to engage her in 'friendly' situations and show her that I am not angry at her any more. I know it's subsided and it's still there down there doing a slow simmer, but it isn't going to come up any time soon. She's also always on edge when I am with her and I need to change that dynamic up, not for the hopes of recon, but we will run into each other for kids stuff all the time and I'd just like it to be chill.
I also just need to do a 180 on my survival approach where I used to cut people out of my life. It's just not the most productive way to deal with conflict. Personal growth right
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I do think my W is in for a very rude awakening. I am not Brad Pitt but I am not chopped liver either.
I am with you on this one and what Slater said about the slim pickings out there for moms with kids. But it totally depends on what they want - are they just looking around to get laid? If so, you know there's tons of men who would willingly oblige. But if she's looking for a R, then that's a helluva different ballgame. But if the realization that the field is pretty empty for her comes after 5 years or longer, I know that I would've definitely moved on by then and chances for recon from my end would be non-existent.
I get she's at a place where she can't work on the MR, but the flip side is that the longer she waits to come to a decision, that time works against her as I will have drifted away from her. So, that sweet spot where both parties might want to work on the MR becomes significantly tiny.
Sorry to hear about the sexual abuse history in your W's family J. That is one thing that terrifies me as well. I am sure she has good sense and would take necessary steps for their safety, but I do worry about the kids.
Before BD and early on, yes She had anger and contempt towards me. It seemed to me that she had her ego pumped up so much that she thought I was beneath her. I don't feel that way any more. To me it appears she has lost some of that fire.....we don't engage in R talk so I don't know 100% but I don't see it in her eyes when she looks at me. Maybe it has something to do with me loosing 15 lbs and getting jacked over the last 6 months .
One thing I have learned is that you have to change/up your sex rank. I think that goes hand in hand with your confidence and appearance. If your W has a higher sex rank than you or a perceived higher sex rank then there can be problems.
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We haven't discussed any plans yet. I know cutting things close to the wire. I am leaning towards doing things together. I know that she would accept that.
L and G pushed me towards extending an invitation to my W and I am glad I did so. Maybe this could be away you let her know that your still around???
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I also just need to do a 180 on my survival approach where I used to cut people out of my life. It's just not the most productive way to deal with conflict. Personal growth right smile
My W is that way....it is very easy for her to cut people off at the knee caps. It can be a good and bad quality for sure
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So, that sweet spot where both parties might want to work on the MR becomes significantly tiny.
I have struggled with this. Currently I feel it is like a Mexican standoff with neither party wanting to flinch. My W is stubborn as hell but when we were together many times I could give her a hug or we would just have sex and she was able to release whatever was inside. She was like a balloon, all filled up with air but didn't know how to release it and eventually she would when she was ready to let it go. Some times I wonder if that is what she needs now.
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Sorry to hear about the sexual abuse history in your W's family J. That is one thing that terrifies me as well. I am sure she has good sense and would take necessary steps for their safety, but I do worry about the kids.
Thanks....it is what it is and to my W's credit she is not nearly as messed up as her mom. I just pray that if it comes to D and other men that she won't put our D's in a bad spot.
M.....I would say the other thing I struggle with is not breaking rank. Have you ever seen those war videos from Nazi Germany were all the soldiers are marching in exact cadence, no smiles on their face all marching in the same fashion? That's how I feel some times, like the fight is within to not break rank. Resisting the temptation after 5 months of no R talks to give in and say WTF. What is going here? What are we doing? Let's get this over with, you have had almost 7 months make a fuching decision. Resisting those temptations is hard some times.
Then I come back to everything I have learned, about being a model DBer thinking about those people going through the same struggles, those who are active posters and those reading who never post. Thinking I can't let them down or let myself down. There was this movie with Edward Norton where he would have a split personality and talk to himself so I think about it and give myself motivational speech's. Get a hold of yourself! Don't you break you fuching pussy! Lock it in, crap like that. Don't be weak, your better than that!
So for me the struggle is to stay the course. To be that person that 20 years from now people can reference. Go read J9 and follow his path. Then I come back to the love I have for my W. Is this the ultimate sign of love? Through better or worse until death do we part. About a week before she moved out I was lying in bed and she came in, laid her head on my chest and told me that what made this so difficult was because she knew that I would love her for the rest of her life. So if I pull the plug would I be letting her, myself and our whole family down in the process. Is it my duty to weather the storm, is this my purpose to fight on or do I give in and wave the white flag.
Currently I feel it is like a Mexican standoff with neither party wanting to flinch.
I feel you on this one big time. I believe my W is petrified of making any moves because she is unsure how I would react to it. Since I told her I ain't her buddy, she's basically respected NC from me and only contacted me when it was kid related. She has also said in the past that she would never bring anything up and I believe her on that.
So, in terms of what Slater said about fighting for your MR, I feel that I will have to take the higher road but work really hard to keep my emotions and expectations in check. I won't bring up R stuff, but if I can squeeze in some friendly interactions slowly over time, it might thaw the situation out and let her know that I am not on edge around her and she can maybe start to relax and not have anxiety about interacting with me.
I will have to gauge it obviously and see how to go about it. I wish I was just in this really detached place with a shield around my heart that I could just do this and not have to worry about it. But I know I am not and with every day that goes by, it feels like everything is slipping away and I am not actually fighting for the MR. I dunno. I am not going to start making up stuff to interact with her, but small things here and there. I have zero doubt that she feels that I am super angry with her, that I hate her guts, and that I don't ever want to see her face - there is some truth to that, but I still have a lot of love for her and would want to work on things with her.
I guess what I am saying is that I need to show her that the path is safe to me. It is not riddled with anger and hate.
I guess what I am saying is that I need to show her that the path is safe to me. It is not riddled with anger and hate.
To me all of this about taking the high road, being stoic, resolute, diplomatic but firm. I also think you can be this way but still show her a path back. I still don't initiate conversation but when she does I am a little more interactive, if it is informational I now respond with a TY vs nothing at all, when we are together I will initiate a little general conversation, I try to be warm and happy. When she is talking to me I find her leaning into conversations at times and I will do the same.
I guess my point is that I was pretty dark, NC (really dim) early on for maybe the first 3 months but then I started to loosen up some. Obviously if there is a confirmed OM the approach would be much different.
There is seriously no easy way around all of this. I get about not breaking rank, but you seem to have had a frequency of interactions with W over the past 7 months and it seems that she's progressively started to thaw and chill. From where I see it, she's had a hard time deciding about Xmas, let alone coming to a place where she feels certain about the MR. The temptations are a killer I know - this is what led me to my temp check, but one thing I learned from it is that I won't ever do it again because it sounded so definitive.
If she has time to think about it, maybe her perspective will change. I think that creating that safe path is probably the best advice I can think of - but it's a beast as well because you have to be vigilant about your detachment and continue DBing.
You've been a model DBer no doubt and I would say you don't have anything to prove to anyone here. Whether or not you stay the course is not a marker of what you have done for yourself.
Yeah I think pulling the plug is a hard decision and I feel like the good fight needs to be fought until there is no stamina left. I don't think it would be an indication of you letting your family and daughters down - you can only do so much and if it's crickets from the other party, then you have to control on what you can, which is yourself.
I also give myself the pep talks like Ed Norton, but at some point something's gotta give. I would just hang in a bit longer and not give up out of desperation. At some point, I feel like I am just so beat down by this and I just want it to end and feel better. But I know that if I pull the plug, it may give me temporary relief, but it's not going to solve anything for me. As we've talked about, pulling the plug has to come from a place of strength and after you've just tried everything you could to salvage the MR - and I mean DB style, not pursuing and all of that.
I still have a lot of this tenderness towards her and I wonder if she's got some left. I know she's clouded by anger right now and I have to let her walk that journey and let it pass. Only after that maybe I have a shot. But in the time she's working on her anger, I need to show her that she still has a path and I haven't shunned her. Again, not waiting for her, but not rejecting her yet.
