Fighting my way out of the dark - Part 6

[Holding]

J9, I'd love to be the voice of reason. But I don't know how ready I am right now. Yes, there is hurt and resentment. The anger is fading, but there's still a little left. STBXW also mentioned hate - I don't hate her any more. But for a while I really did. Now I just want to be done with her.

You know what I do hate? This dark legal cloud hanging over everything. It prevents real conversations from happening between us. I'm just so guarded with everything I say. The funny thing is, we've never argued as much as we argue now. I wish we could just hit pause on the legal side and have a REAL ARGUMENT where we get to yell and scream as much as we want. Not sure what that would really achieve other than making me feel better.

I know we'll have to get to a place where we can be healthy for the sake of the kids, but I think that'll take a while to get to.

If you look at that text exchange, I see accusation or blame in just about every text she sent. Am I the only one seeing that? I'm serious (and I know I'm not blameless). I'm trapped in the Reality Distortion Zone right now.

Do you have any concrete examples from that text exchange of things I could've done better?

[Holding]

Holding I think you're intellectually done but not emotionally done if that makes sense.

You *want* to be done, but your feelings haven't caught up. Rationally you know you're better off without her.

Yes, that makes perfect sense. Thanks. Is it just a waiting game with the feelings? Can I just kick my feelings' @ss?

Getting into a separate living situation is going to help you a lot, it's going to be good for your self esteem. The sooner that can happen the better.

I can't wait! But it looks like it won't happen until D is final.

Regarding her retirement account balance, the best advice I can give you is to regard your divorce from the perspective of being fair, but not vindictive or punishing. If you can leave something on the table that you *could* have gotten if you'd really fought for it, it will buy you a ton of goodwill in your ongoing co-parenting arrangement.

I have no intention of being vindictive. I just want what's fair. STBXW has proposed giving me 0% of her retirement accounts.

Stay strong my friend!

Thanks!

(Some days I say to myself, "this is gonna be a slow day on the DB boards for me". Those days usually end up being the busiest.)

[TBSakaJ9]

H.....I don't know if better is the word but maybe different that could defuse the situation. You did indicate there was some mis-communication on your part. Did you own up to that with her? I myself had a hard time admitting my errors/feelings to my W and it drove her crazy.

Just a few examples below

STBXW: Then why, this is the second time it's happened.

H. I don't remember the first time it happened but I would love to sit down and discuss so we are on the same page moving forward.

STBXW: I'm sorry but eventually you need to discuss co-parenting with me, regardless how much you hate me.

Me: That last statement is exactly why these discussions are so difficult.

Maybe something like. I agree, we do need to sit down and discuss co-parenting. I want us to be on the same page for our children.

STBXW: I'm being honest. I know you hate me, I see it in your eyes and in your actions. I have heard. I know more than you think I know.

H...I don't hate you but I think this is something that we need to sit down and discuss in person vs over a text. I think it would be productive for us so we can move forward in a more positive manner. Would you be willing?

STBXW: We need to find common ground b/c he was already crying this morning about the D.

Me: Our common ground is that we'll continue to be parents to our kids.

H...I agree, I want to be on common ground as well. I would like to sit down and discuss how we can move forward in the best interest of our kids.

I am certainly no expert and I am not saying it's easy. I also am not trying to be critical so please don't take it that way. I also don't think your responses where wrong but could they have been re-worded in a way to defuse the sitch or at minimum to maybe open the door for a sit down conversation to help you guys move forward. Truthfully maybe you guys are too far down the path and sep is the best as ACC and Sandi have suggested.

[Holding]

Good feedback, J9. Thanks! I don't take it as you being critical at all.

A lot of your suggestions take the form of "sit down and discuss". While that might seem like a good approach, I don't think it would work for us right now. She is refusing all face-to-face communication. And I think it's for the best since she can't go a single discussion without making accusations against me ("I hate her", "I'm trying to screw her", or I've done something intentional to her).

Earlier this morning we were texting about finances, and we started to get somewhere, but she threw in some accusations. I denied them and said I hoped we'd be able to discuss this in a civil manner. She then ended the conversation. I don't feel like I can get anywhere with her right now.

[TBSakaJ9]

No worries H......ultimately you know your sitch better than anyone else!

I denied them and said I hoped we'd be able to discuss this in a civil manner. She then ended the conversation.

Do you think she ended it because you wanted to discuss in a civil manner and she realized, by you pointing it out, that she wasn't being civil? Do you think her tone would change if you didn't get sucked in emotionally. When you said she ended the conversation it made me think that she caught herself.

[sandi2]

Focus on your relationship with your boys. Your S14 is at a hard age. He is probably angry at the situation. Maybe you have trouble communicating with him. Sometimes, parents try so hard to protect their children's feelings that withhold too much, and the kids have to form an assumed explanation.....which is usually very inaccurate.

Make a real effort to include him when you do things with S13, as well as have one on one with him. If he thinks you and his brother is chummy, he might resent it or feel jealous. Man, I don't envy you! I would not want to raise teenagers again. Parents deserve a medal just surviving. .

Whatever happened in your childhood that still affects how you operate in adult relationships today, I hope you can receive help from your IC. It breaks my heart, Holding. I suppose we all carry something from childhood that negatively mold our adult years. If we can identify "it" and know how it is affecting our current life, then surely there is an answer in how to resolve, overcome, or deal with it. ((hugs))

Btw, discussing the co-parenting or visitation (whatever it was she was texting about) is not considered relationship talk. I say this in case you have appeared stubborn in communicating with her about the kids.

[Holding]

Do you think she ended it because you wanted to discuss in a civil manner and she realized, by you pointing it out, that she wasn't being civil? ... When you said she ended the conversation it made me think that she caught herself.

I think she ended it because she realized the conversation wasn't going her way. Her exact words were "This discussion is over". She LOVES to get the last word. I think she enjoyed it b/c I'm usually the one to end the convos.

Do you think her tone would change if you didn't get sucked in emotionally.

That's a good question. Not getting emotionally sucked in is big time goal for me, and I have a lot of work to do. I think she enjoys sucking me in emotionally and getting a rise out of me. It seems to almost be her goal. When I don't get emotional and instead try to play it like Spock (something I do often), she gets really frustrated.

Our conversations lately go like this: STBXW approaches me with a financial or child-related issue to discuss. It will sometimes start with something like "Look, I know you are angry with me and don't want to talk to me, but we need to discuss X." We make a small amount of progress, but she invariably injects an insult, accusation, or snide remark. This is where she comes up against my boundary, and I end the conversation. Sometimes we might make it all the way through to the resolution of the issue, but she makes sure to throw in a little jab at the end.

Yeah, writing that out makes me realize just how toxic she is.

[Holding]

Focus on your relationship with your boys.

Sandi, will do!

S14 is in a really rough spot. I do have trouble communicating with him, and I think he's jealous of my interaction with S10 to some degree. It's weird though, up until about a year ago, S14 and I were so close. I always try to include him with S10, but he often opts out. It really upsets me. I'm starting to worry that he'll chose not to live with me after the D.

I do not avoid discussing co-parenting (GOD, I HATE THAT WORD) with STBXW. Sometimes she pushes an issue I'm not ready to discuss because of plans I'm not sure of yet, so I ask her to postpone the convo until later. Maybe she sees my desire to postpone as being stubborn though.

Childhood issues (mainly being betrayed by friends and bullied): I've been working with my IC on so many other issues, that the childhood issues have taken a back seat. Now that my emotional turmoil is starting to subside, I realize I have to address these issues with my IC. Thanks for the kick in the butt.

[TBSakaJ9]

I think she enjoys sucking me in emotionally and getting a rise out of me. It seems to almost be her goal. When I don't get emotional and instead try to play it like Spock (something I do often), she gets really frustrated.

I think you are on to something! I agree with you! So you play it cool, she gets frustrated, throws out some insult and you let her know that speaking to you this way is unacceptable and you would love to continue the conversation but that it will only happen if she can remain calm.

I think you have tried to do this but if I remember it has happened in the context of you getting sort of sucked in emotionally. When you get sucked in I think it takes away the power of your message.

"Look, I know you are angry with me and don't want to talk to me, but we need to discuss X."

Why do you think she feels that way? Do you think this is something that she could get past through your actions? Maybe to do so would force you to maybe reconcile some of your own hurt, anger, etc.? If you were ever to R wouldn't those issues have to be resolved any way?

Yeah, writing that out makes me realize just how toxic she is.

I agree 100%...my W would argue with me and when I would argue back she would never accept any blame or she would turn it back around on me so I would never get any where. Finally I stopped trying, I called her out on it a few times but I never really sat her down to let her know how it made me feel. That part of our R was not good but I just accepted it over time which probably helped get me in the position I am in now.

Knowing she is toxic, is there anything you could do differently to help led her through this crisis? I am not talking about your MR and R/D discussions but leading her through this communication gap between you two so that when you communicate it can be more productive? Or even be a better life at home until your S/D for your children? Is there a way you could "step up" and make a difference?

H...again just my random thoughts, not trying to be critical. I am lucky in many ways that my W moved out 3 weeks after BD so I did not have to go through the in-house separation ordeal. I feel for you and your pain!

[Accuray]

I'm not sure why you're being guarded from a legal perspective. You could secretly audio record 100% of what you say to each other and it really wouldn't matter a bit unless you were talking about doing things that were illegal or threatening to hurt yourselves, each other, or the kids, and even in that scenario the lawyers would need to filter it.

When I got divorced there were really just two components to it: a financial settlement and a parenting agreement.

For the financial settlement, the judge is going to want the two of you to put everything in a theoretical pot (assets and debts) and then each take half.

The arguing begins when you have things that are difficult to value -- i.e. if you take the couch, you might say it's worth $300 whereas STBX might say it's worth $4,000 and that type of arguing can consume lots of legal $$.

You each have to disclose everything to each other in terms of your accounts, balances, and debts, and if you hide anything you can wind up in contempt of court so you don't want to do that.

Then after you agree on how things are divided up, the judge will just ask if you've seen each other's disclosures and understand and agree to the division you've made, and he'll expect both of you to nod and say "yes".

Therefore your best bet is to work it out at the kitchen table between the two of you. If she doesn't want to give you any of her retirement money, can you claim something else of comparable value?

The judge will not care *at all* about any he said - she said or who did what to whom. They just don't care, nor do they want to get in the middle of it. There's no right and wrong, there's only dividing up your stuff fairly.

The other part is ongoing alimony and child support. Child support is generally a non-negotiable state formula based on the difference in your incomes and your parenting time, and alimony has state guidelines but can be modified or waived.

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to incriminate each other by recording your arguments, it won't count for anything in the final analysis and will just put both of you on edge.

Acc