Contact from the dark side.

[Gordie]

Irish,

As always, you handled this perfectly.

I know you’ve detached but it pains me to read this.

It’s just so, so sad...and infuriating.

[Irish M]

It is good that she is seeing a therapist. Is this a new development?

Hi OwnIt
She has been telling me about therapy for over a year now. Fist time she said it was online via skype. Not sure how that would work out. This time it was going to see one on Thursday. An appointment. So hopefully they see what's going on and help her. Only if she tells them everything.

# don't let her meet the girls alone without having met her first to assess where she is at and what her approach will be
# when ye meet, set yourself the hard target to not react to her. Let her talk as much as possible. Don't judge her, correct her or put her in her place. Hold your tongue. This will let her finish what she has to say and not get sidetracked reacting to your reaction.
# at the end thank her for opening up and say you want to consider what she said and you will get back to her.
# eliminate the thinking that this will be or is the sane old white again and again. Have an open mind.
# try interpret what she really means. By this I mean that maybe she will attack you or look for pity but she could have a good intention behind a bad communication.

excellent advice Roist. glad you posted this. its always good to read to keep me in check.
I replied to a text of hers today and i feel i said a little too much. I'll write the details below. I need to really let her talk. No point in being defensive. it was all said long ago.

Remember, the more she talks, rambles, babbles, the more information you will have to make a reasonable assessment of next steps for Ds. Much is revealed in their endless rambles.

Hi Bttrfly. yes rambling would be good on her end. I was also told by a friend that I should validate. Just repeat word for word that she says. So she says it and I repeat it so she can hear it again.

If she is still in a place of blame shifting, her seeing D's may not be a good idea. I know there was nothing more painful to me than my mother blaming me for adult problems.

You will get a sense of whether or not she is ready to take accountability. Or at least if she is on the path to it. But until she is, I wouldn't be facilitating a meeting and "helping" her like she asks.

You continue to absolutely amaze me. I would have had her blocked from my phone by now and only entertained email to an account just for her to email and to check it when I see fit. You are a better person than I.

Hi Ginger, I agree 199% .I will not open the doors for a meet up with the girls if I see she's not stable. if this meet up happens. I have a feeling it will not be as easy for either of us.
The girls, I will shelter them from this for now.

Oh, I've blocked her multiple of times when she goes off and i need to protect my sanity.
I have her on a texting App only. Not phone number and no messenger. Email is only my home email. Gmail account. My personal email and work she is blocked.

Like most MLCer's she's afraid of being judged and rejected because deep down, she knows what she's done and doesn't have a clue to repair the damage.

I think your response was spot on and let's see what transpires after Thursday. My guess is she's not ready to face any of you.

yes.. I will let her ramble and I have that gut feeling as well job, she will not be ready to meet.
i say that but below is today's messages and I was very surprised what she says.

Put feelings aside and keep your thinking cap on. Do the poker face process it later, if anything happens - which I don't think it will.

Its tough. I feel I will have a poker face but this is the first time I will see her in over 2 years.. face to face alone. The last time I was in the same room with her was in mediation. No eye contact and she did not once look at me. might as well not been there.

When was the last time you actually seen her?

really seen her.. Over 2 years. that we talked and made eye contact.
Mediation doesn't count, that was January 2016

the girls it was Aug 4 2015.

Reading the exchange I picked up on what job said. She is terrified of being judged/rejected probably more so from the girls than from you but I am thinking its death by firing squad or hanging ... neither sounds fun.
The fact she is putting the weight of meeting you on her therapist should tell everyone she is not ready, but the good news is she seems to be at least sorting through some issues, although I am guessing in her head if Irish did this or Irish did that she would not be in this sitch so yeah ... I would hold fast till the Blame Game stops and she actually starts to look inward for solutions.

yes, she isn't one to face her mistakes. Even prior MLC she would avoid.
I'll see if her therapist decides. No clue what the therapy is about. Is it the loss of her kids, her demons haunting her or like she said over a year ago. Therapy to find herself. All seem to make her look inside. If she does the work

She seems to be judging herself as well and she can see her life has gone downhill a lot
and that you may not approve of her or allow her in the lives of the girls

Yes i picked up on this too. i will protect them as teens. As adult, they will have me as support.
If i don't approve of her i can;t see the girls approving either. She's in a tight spot. We will see how she plays it out.

In my opinion, it may be best to let her hit a real bottom if she is using
not to help until she is clean- she is telling you- her life is a mess, so we can only guess what she has become

I agree. My communication will be open for a while. If it gets back to her monstering well i will go dark again and let her spin alone.

I know you’ve detached but it pains me to read this.

It’s just so, so sad...and infuriating.

Yes very much so Gordie. that urge to shake her comes and goes at moments like this. But this site has guided me well to hold back.


well today i was in meetings all day. Got out at 5pm and opened the app that she can message me. I get this

You know Irish, I am starting to see what I did wrong. I know I did things that hurt you and you never deserved that. I never cheated on you by the way. I waited until I moved out. I know as well why I did what I did. I can't change the past.

well, I don't know why she needs to tell me she never cheated. Sadly that statement was false. Still lying or trying to anyway. And all the ^^ above, I heard before . The last time she popped her head out in the spring. lasted a few days then poof. Back in her cave with puff the magic dragon.

I replied.

I'm happy you can acknowledge it now. As for your cheating I tend to remember different but it doesn't matter. You did what you did and chose that life. Can't change the past.

I know.. there was no point in pointing that out. That she did cheat. but.. I did get a response that I wasn't expecting.

you are right. I am sorry. I felt like I was in a dark place with you. I was dying or at least I felt like I was dying. Why I cheated on you?? I don't know. I need to find that out.I know I needed to feel alive. I will talk about this to me therapist. have a good day

I left it at that. I think if she is going Thursday she will have a lot to talk about.

thanks again guys. I really appreciate this more than I can ever say.

[HaWho]

Irish - What I hear is that she still wants someone to fix her mess. As Cali pointed out, she will meet if the therapist says she is strong enough. She needs YOU to help her rebuild with the girls.

If she really is seeing a therapist, he/she will know that she went waaaay off the deep end. No normal person walks out on his/her kids. And it sounds like she is doing a whole lot of justifying: I was dying, I needed to feel alive, etc. Me, me and more me. No therapist is going to see valid, justifiable logic in it.

I hope the therapist talks her out of it right and I think he/she will. If the therapist said that we'll see on Thursday (2 days from our session today) if you you are "strong enough," well, I think the therapist has her answer that it is not the right time. If she is questioning the timing, two or three days certainly is not enough time. And it makes no sense to start the process until she can really put forth true effort and really earn their trust back. It seems otherwise she'll just burn more bridges with them?

Of course, they have their own say in all this. And the very sad part is, she very well may be ready before they are?

Kudos to you..:

[OwnIt]

I admit to being a sucker for lost souls, but I think she was telling the truth about feeling like she was dying and needing to feel alive. I had a text or email fight with mine shortly after he left and he said that my dedication over 25 years had "damn near killed him". I believe that he believed that when he said it.

Yes there is a lot of I in this, but she is also trying to apologize, even if the truth is still difficult for her. You had already been receptive to helping her reunite with the girls. I don't think she needed to blow smoke up your butt to facilitate that. I think she probably sees the cheating as the turning point for where things got off track, but of course in all likelihood that was a symptom of what was already going on with her.

I hope she stays out for more than a few days this time for all of your sakes. I can't imagine how hard it is to sit there. I often think how I would behave under similar circumstances. I don't think I would have done nearly as well.

[roist]

Don't worry about that truth dart you sent her way. It'll remind her you won't swallow her lies or mistruths. That being said I revert to my previous post as probably being a better approach for now.

I feel empathy for your ExW. She is in a lousy place. I think she wants to improve things. Letting her talkfreely could help that occur. Down the road ye can revisit your issues. To get better that will have to be done. So wait until then for your say.

Your ExW has a long path ahead of her to reconnect with your daughters. If she considers you as hostile,iit could hinder her taking those first steps.She has already surprised you with her communication. Maybe she will again. I am not asking you to help her but rather step back and give her what she needs to follow this path.

Best wishes

[bttrfly]

ok well feeling like you're dying, wanting to feel alive - isn't that classic depression symptoms?

I'm impressed that a. she admitted it promptly and b. that she says she needs to find out why she cheated on you. That is a person who is looking for answers. There may be some hope here.

And yes, the best person to talk about this with is her therapist. It sounds like she has a lot of trust in the therapist's opinion ("I will see what my therapist says" "if my therapist thinks I am strong enough"). That is good, because if this therapist is worth their salt they can help guide her through the tunnel.

I wouldn't put much stock in her showing or not showing. She needs to do some more baking (without the smokey treats) ...

It's a process. As painful as it is for us, I'm glad we are not them. Can you imagine? Ugh.

Loving kindness my friend
xoxoxo

[Sotto]

Hi Irish, wise advice already from other posters and thank you for posting about the contact you have from your XW. Your situation reminds me in some ways of my online chum RD. He doesn't post much nowadays, but his W seemed in the same lost kind of place as yours.

I think the statement about feeling she was dying is so telling. That is how desperate the need to 'get out/so something' can be. The most impassioned thing XH said to me after BD was that he felt he had a big hole right at the very centre of his heart. Again, classic emptiness of depression - and desperately looking for something to feel good again.

What stood out for me is the - I didn't cheat - okay I did cheat and I need to work out why. Bouncing around. I'll still lie if I can. Oh I can't. Taking some responsibility. Delving some. Still somewhat entitled too.

Certainly not at all settled, and a long way to go yet. I'll be interested to see if she can go through with things today - she sounds extremely fragile.

Take care Irish and I hope there's something of value in this post for you xx

[CaliGuy]

Irish

Quite the turn things are taking with her. She is expressing so many things that we all have read that they do ... script script script but in this case it is at the least things they say when the fog lightens up a bit and they are trying to crawl out of the tunnel. In my case it was about 4-5 months of some clarity and it was like the work was to hard and she shot right back in. This one ... time will tell right?

I think what struck me reading along was your responses and her retort ... as buttrfly mentioned she tried to slip a fib by you, not only did you not buy it, you handled it well and indifferent with a mere shrug and called her on it in passing .... where things got interesting for me was she did not deny it and even admitted it was wrong and she needed more soul searching to discover WHY she did such a thing ..... the look does seem to be shifting inward for her and this is good, just hope she has the stones to see it through for her own sake and then you can continue to decide what you will handle and what you will not.

Thank you for answering my question on the dates, I was pretty sure its been several years but was not quite sure. I think it does play a part in it as its hard to tell how someone is, my ex can sound all fruit and bubbly while on the phone with my son ... then she shows up at his baseball game and she looks flat worn out.

So the question remains ... is this an emergence, or simply a check in with pending holidays arriving ... time will tell.

[Irish M]

Hi Guys,

thanks so much for the support and help here. Not a day goes by that I am not grateful.

HaWho, I too didn't think she was ready. She has a long way to go. If her therapist is a good one hopefully he will see through her masks

OwnIt, I too am a sucker for lost souls. I believe in people and I believe in her that one day she will connect with the girls. I just hope it was sooner than later.

for the point you made about her staying out for a few days , it doesn't matter anymore. I look at it so differently. I know she is not well and in a dark place. I don't let it get to me.

Roist, yes the truth darts. I'll stay quiet and listen. great advice.

bttrfly, yes classic depression symptoms. Sadly shes not there yet to accept it as that and blame is still her motto. I believe to o she is working it out. I just can't let it get to me and misreading between the lines . I've don't that in the past. Won't
fall again. The girls won't either.

Hi Sotto, there is always value to your posts. I only wish I was as good as you are at giving advice.

Cali, I have the time, no rushing this process as it won't give the girls a positive outcome. She needs to be in a good place. If all this is to only show clarity an then disappear, the girls will be one step closer to writing her off .They too have hope. They feel she will wake up and do the right thing.


UPDATE **

So, a week went by and no news. I figured either her therapy took a wrong turn and it was too much for her or simply the therapist told her she was not ready. Either way no news. Until today.

Good morning, sorry I didn't write sooner. My therapist says I shouldn't see you just yet Irish. That the reason I don't see the girls is because of the separation.

I lost my motherly instinct because of the separation, because of the way the girls reacted, the way they talked back to me and that hurt. So up went the wall. I built a wall around myself to protect me. That now I need to work on breaking that wall down to let my babies in. Irish, I'm working hard at this. I don't have that mother feeling to see them. I just don't feel I'm there yet and I'll let you know if that happens.


a little later. this one came in.

you have to understand I was in a dark place. I'm seeing it now that our breakdown caused it. The girls didn't help.

Ex, I understand about the meet up. I am ready when you are. As for the separation being the cause of this dark place you entered. I see it more as you went into the dark place, the girls didn't recognize you anymore and our separation was unavoidable. Either way Im glad you are working through this.

Irish, thank you for understanding. You know we should of had a better couple therapist. I know you didn't like the one I picked and I had asked you to find one. I wish you would of done that part.

XW, 10 years ago when you went off the map. The therapist even told me nothing I can do. That therapy was to make me accept.

2 Years ago when you asked me to chose the therapist this time for our couple I didn't. I didn't see you wanting it. It takes 2. I wasn't going to do therapy again so I can accept it. So that you can say " you see, we didn't work" . I was all a game to you and part of your escape plan.

What didn't work was you. I know my faults and have expressed them. Our couple could of survived. But you were on a mission to get out. I didn't need a therapist to tell me that.


You are right. I needed out at all costs. In my heart I had wanted you to find a therapist. In my head I was leaving. You have nothing to apologize for. You did nothing wrong Irish. This all happened for unknown reasons.
I felt like I was not your partner in life. You managed the budget and that's OK. But I wanted to help you. I wanted you to trust me like I trusted you. I wanted to feel like a team.
god I hate texting . This way of communication is the worst. Please don't take anything I saw negative, its not my intentions.

the budget? well you know I offered it to you and even said take it on. You needed to step up to the plate. It wasn't going to get done by itself. If that is the sole reason you left, I'm sorry.
By the way, We were a great team. We raised the girls together. They are beautiful souls today because of it. You were a great mom. Just got lost. You are working on that and I am open to communication. Have a good day

I didn't step up did I . I remember that now. have a good day too

Well that was today. I know I slipped up. Defending. Truth darting overload. But it was an open communication.

I'm not sure what to think about her therapy. Is he really telling her that her shut down was because of our separation. She was shut down way before. and the girls only gave her attitude when she went manic. Her shark eyes showed me that she was deep in a depression. My mom even picked up on it weeks before and asked her to see a doctor. She lied to my mom and said she did.

The therapist is on the wrong path. This will just validate her own lies. Hopefully he is working this to help her dig deeper within. Time will tell.

Now tonight \i have a heart broken D15. Her BF just broke up with her. He lives 40 mins away. I usually drop her off and pick her up on weekends. Not to get in the way of school nights. He takes public transit but said they don't see each other enough. So better they break up. His Dad a MLCr drove him for the first time and didn't like the commute. So it's cookies tonight and hugs. Seeing her cry breaks my heart.

Irish

[OwnIt]

Irish,

I don't think you can accept her version of what the therapist is saying as what the therapist is saying. Given that she is now reaching out and agreeing with you when you challenge her fantasy version of events, it seems like something is happening in a positive fashion.

I'm sorry about your D, but perhaps this will give you some perspective. I didn't date at 15. I didn't date until I was 21. I married the first person I dated after knowing him for less than a year. We have been married 26 years in December (3 month waiting period so pretty clear we are traveling through one more anniversary).

I wish I had dated other people. I wish my first breakup wasn't at 46 with two kids, a mortgage, etc. Your D will learn that she will survive this, and in time she will find another boy and learn a new lesson, and probably endure another heartbreak. Those heartbreaks will collectively help her figure out what she likes and needs in another person and what she doesn't.

A great dad and some lovely cookies will probably help a little for now.