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MoveFrwd #2765603 10/17/17 07:31 AM
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I'm glad to read that you're not focusing on the what if scenarios any more. I went through the same thing. Eventually, I realized that even when I did everything that XH wanted me to do, it still wasn't enough. Like you, that hurts. But also like you, there isn't anything I could have done differently that would have changed the outcome. He had to go down his path and do things his way. I think it takes time to accept that and believe it to be true.

Will you be good enough next time? How can you prevent future pain? Are you doomed to repeat your mistakes?

You've learned all of those answers by going through this experience. Because of the pain, you will work harder to ensure that it doesn't happen again. By keeping the conversations going with your GF and checking in with her to have those deeper conversations from time to time, you two can stay on the same page and work through things together.

It is scary to put your faith into someone else. But it is also scary to not take that risk. One thing that helped me as I was getting married the second time was knowing that if it all happened again, I will be OK. Of course, I don't think it will come to that or I wouldn't have gotten married, but I will be OK. I learned from my XH that marriage is work and it does not mean we will be together forever. While that is the goal, I can only control myself. I work hard on my marriage. I try to express my thoughts and feelings even when they aren't good. Communication really is the key.

Quote:
While I am hearing things like "Ill never cheat on you" or "I dont see why we wouldnt be together forever", in my head, I feel that those absolutes are not so meaningful. Having gone through it once before after hearing those kinds of words, it's difficult to believe it 100%. Do I think we'll be together in 20 years? Sure! But Ive lost that ability to love 'innocently'.


What if she said, "I will do my best to work things out with you in our relationship" or something to that effect? I think what changed with me is the knowledge that marriage is work. A good relationship is work. My partner can choose to leave me at any time, and I need to do my best to keep him happy and myself happy.

Also, don't judge your GF based on what your XW did. wink

Are you sure she doesn't care if you get married or not? I'm wondering why she would tell you she'll never cheat or that she sees you 2 together forever, if marriage isn't something that she would like.

Something else to consider - your kids. Remember that you are their role model. I wonder what they will think if they see you continue to live with your GF without getting married. How may it affect them in the long run? Have you talked with them about the idea of you and your GF getting married?

dream #2765883 10/20/17 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: dream
Eventually, I realized that even when I did everything that XH wanted me to do, it still wasn't enough.

Agreed. Even now, it seems every contact we have it is because I did something that is perceived as 'wrong'. I know that I make mistakes still, but I also know that I am doing a heckuva lot of things correctly and those are not addressed.

Originally Posted By: dream
He had to go down his path and do things his way. I think it takes time to accept that and believe it to be true.

It's so difficult, because I want to understand things that I know I never will. I want to apply logic and reason to a situation which defies it. Ive come to just accept that there are questions whose answers I'll never know. And even if I were to get those answers, they probably wouldnt be enough to actually achieve some level of understanding.

Originally Posted By: dream
You've learned all of those answers by going through this experience. Because of the pain, you will work harder to ensure that it doesn't happen again. By keeping the conversations going with your GF and checking in with her to have those deeper conversations from time to time, you two can stay on the same page and work through things together.

Thats the plan!

Originally Posted By: dream
One thing that helped me as I was getting married the second time was knowing that if it all happened again, I will be OK.

Thats an outstanding point. I dont know that it would be easier...but it's certainly something I can handle and I know I have the tools to deal with it if it comes to that.

Originally Posted By: dream
I learned from my XH that marriage is work and it does not mean we will be together forever. While that is the goal, I can only control myself. I work hard on my marriage. I try to express my thoughts and feelings even when they aren't good. Communication really is the key.

It is absolutely work. Luckily, as I was going through the divorce, I learned a lot about who I was and how my choices affected my partner. And I worked hard to change the fundamental way that I looked at lots of things.

Originally Posted By: dream
What if she said, "I will do my best to work things out with you in our relationship" or something to that effect?

She has certainly said things similar to this many times as well. I know that any hangups that I have are based on XW and not on anything that I believe to be true about GF.

Originally Posted By: dream
Also, don't judge your GF based on what your XW did. wink

Easier said than done cry

Originally Posted By: dream
Are you sure she doesn't care if you get married or not? I'm wondering why she would tell you she'll never cheat or that she sees you 2 together forever, if marriage isn't something that she would like.

Her mind has absolutely changed. When we first met, that was her stance, but now, she has made it quite clear that she expects to at least be engaged in the fairly near future. Im not sure that Im ready, but Im also not sure exactly what Im waiting for!

Originally Posted By: dream
Something else to consider - your kids. Remember that you are their role model. I wonder what they will think if they see you continue to live with your GF without getting married. How may it affect them in the long run? Have you talked with them about the idea of you and your GF getting married?

This is a very good point that I hadnt really considered. I have talked with them a little, and Im sure that they would be onboard. They sometimes already call her their stepmom. But I do need to consider how not being married might impact them.

Thanks for stopping in!

MoveFrwd #2765912 10/20/17 03:32 AM
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First, let me preface this by saying I think it's too early to think about marriage. You jumped in way too fast ( I would argue you shouldn't even introduce your kids to a date until six months in, and moving in with her after only 6 months was risky. And although you seem to be doing well in the relationship, a year and a half is still kinda early to be making that commitment again. It takes at least a couple years to really get to know someone.

Also there's the fact that you still have some nostalgia for your ex.

But separate from all that - if your main concern about marrying is financial - get a good prenup! I think anyone in a second marriage should consider a prenup, since your finances are more complicated than a young. People starting out with no assets. (But also, if GF is receiving spousal support, realize that may end if she marries you.

Last edited by job; 10/24/17 01:17 AM. Reason: edited a word for kml
kml #2765916 10/20/17 03:35 AM
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Young COUPLE starting out! Haven't had my coffee lol

kml #2765929 10/20/17 05:41 AM
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kml -
Thanks for posting. I think there is a lot of good thought-provoking stuff in your post.

Originally Posted By: kml
First, let me preface this by saying I think it's too early to think about marriage.

I just want to make sure that you are reading the date-stamps on some of the posts correctly. At this point, we have been together for 2 years. I dont see it as unreasonable to be thinking about marriage at that point. How long is your expectation of dating someone before getting engaged?

Originally Posted By: kml
You jumped in way too fast ( I would argue you shouldn't even introduce your kids to a date until six months in, and moving in with her after only 6 months was risky.

You are right, and looking back, I agree that I jumped in too fast. But, Im not sure what this information does for me NOW. While Im not sure I did things exactly the right way, I do believe that what we have is lasting and has a good foundation for a successful relationship going forward.You are also right that everything was a little risky, but I believe things have so far worked out for the best.

Originally Posted By: kml
And although you seem to be doing well in the relationship, a year and a half is still kinda early to be making that commitment again. It takes at least a couple years to really get to know someone.

For sure. So lets say I would be engaged at 2.5 years of dating and then married after 3.5 or 4. That seems like a pretty long timeline nowadays. Even now, I struggle with understanding what I am waiting FOR - is it just for time to pass so that nothing bad turns up?

Originally Posted By: kml
Also there's the fact that you still have some nostalgia for your ex.

In reading back, Id say that there was some many months ago. As I wrote to dream, the nagging questions and timelines still roll around in my head sometimes, but I have come to accept that I will likely never know exactly what happened...and even if I did, I likely wouldnt be satisfied with the answer.

At this point, I can very safely say that I am not interested in getting back together with my ex. I do not miss the person that she is now or the relationship that we had. The relationship I had was 15 years long, but I really only think back about that final whirlwind of a 2 months to try to parse it all out and make some sense of it.

Originally Posted By: kml
But separate from all that - if your main concern about marrying is financial - get a good prenup! I think anyone in a second marriage should consider a prenup, since your finances are more complicated than a young. Purple starting out with no assets. (But also, if GF is receiving spousal support, realize that may end if she marries you.

The financial aspect is fair. I will have to look into that in more detail when the time comes. And no, she is never married, so no SS to worry about.

Thanks again for commenting!

kml #2765954 10/20/17 07:47 AM
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I don't think it's too early for Kaizen to be thinking about marriage. For me, the whole point of dating someone and being in a relationship is to get married! But that's me, not everyone views relationships that way.

My husband and I were engaged after 2 years of dating. We got married the following year. We didn't have a pre-nup as neither of us had any worthy assets.

dream #2765974 10/20/17 09:55 AM
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Quote:
So lets say I would be engaged at 2.5 years of dating and then married after 3.5 or 4. That seems like a pretty long timeline nowadays. Even now, I struggle with understanding what I am waiting FOR - is it just for time to pass so that nothing bad turns up?


Exactly. It takes time for the rose colored glasses of infatuation to come off and for people to show their true colors. That kinda IS what you're waiting for. I think your timeline above sounds reasonable.

A prenup can be written in such a way that it's fair to both of you. Just don't be an a-hole who lets your wife take care of the kids and home to the detriment of her career and then don't want to pay any support. If you both work and share home chores and have similar incomes then there should be no need for alimony.

kml #2766263 10/24/17 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: kml
Exactly. It takes time for the rose colored glasses of infatuation to come off and for people to show their true colors. That kinda IS what you're waiting for. I think your timeline above sounds reasonable.

Im right at about 2 years dating. And also, weve now been living together around a year and a half. In my opinion, this seems like a reasonable amount of time to date before getting engaged. I imagine that your post suggesting it was too early was about a time stamped post from 6-12 months ago?

Originally Posted By: kml
A prenup can be written in such a way that it's fair to both of you. Just don't be an a-hole who lets your wife take care of the kids and home to the detriment of her career and then don't want to pay any support. If you both work and share home chores and have similar incomes then there should be no need for alimony.

I will definitely need to at least get some legal consult before entering a marriage agreement again. Alimony is far less of an issue to me than just division of pre-marital assets. Not that I think anything will happen, but I want to make sure I am protected somewhat.

MoveFrwd #2779064 02/19/18 01:32 AM
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Watched "The Last Five Years" last night. A musical of young love found and then lost. It opened with this song that I found to be touching and reminded me strongly of where Ive been.

Still Hurting
Jamie is over and Jamie is gone
Jamie's decided it's time to move on
Jamie has new dreams he's building upon
And I'm still hurting

Jamie arrived at the end of the line
Jamie's convinced that the problems are mine
Jamie is probably feeling just fine
And I'm still hurting

What about lies, Jamie?
What about things
That you swore to be true
What about you, Jamie
What about you

Jamie is sure something wonderful died
Jamie decides it's his right to decide
Jamie's got secrets he doesn't confide
And I'm still hurting

Go and hide and run away
Run away, run and find something better
Go and ride the sun away
Run away like it's simple
Like it's right...

Give me a day, Jamie
Bring back the lies
Hang them back on the wall
Maybe I'd see
How you could be
So certain that we
Had no chance at all

Jamie is over and where can I turn?
Covered with scars I did nothing to earn
Maybe there's somewhere a lesson to learn
But that wouldn't change the fact
That wouldn't speed the time
Once the foundation's cracked
And I'm
Still hurting

MoveFrwd #2886440 02/19/20 09:07 PM
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Hello again friends and family!

I’m not sure how many people still here remember me. I’ve gone by several names over the course of the years I was posting, but the most recent included Kaizen, Darknes and MoveFrwd. It’s been a long time since I e posted and I wanted to give an update and then ask some opinions on something that is bothering me.

<Update>
My XW and I separated in 4/2015. We have two daughters together who were 6 and 3 and who are now 10 and 7. I was heartbroken but she was dead set on moving forward with D and it was finalized by 11/2015. We pretty much agreed on custody and financials and there wasn’t really anything to get in the way. Around that time I met a new woman and we started dating around the same time the D became final. XW had meanwhile moved in with OP and they were married in 2016. Meanwhile, my new relationship continued to progress incredibly and we were actually married in January of 2019 after three years of dating. Everything is going wonderfully between us. My daughters adore her and I could not be happier.

<Question>
Let me preface this by saying that the relationship between my XW and me is not good. In all of the communication that we have, I do my beat to remain open and collaborative but it is very clear that she has no interest in that sort of dialogue. When there are issues with the girls at school or at home, she is quick to point the point the finger at me and is not interested in working together to resolve anything. I know that it reads like I’m perfect and I’m certainly not, but the key is that I would be happy to remain on friendly terms with her (even if we aren’t friends) and she has shown that that is not a priority for her.

I also want to say that I am very careful to not talk poorly about her to either of my daughters. I believe that it is important for them to have their own relationships with her and it isn’t my place to try to influence that with my own biases.

I would also add that I think that my daughters have “more” when they are at my house rather than their moms. I’m paying her CS still, but her new H has multiple kids as well and their parenting time coincides. So there is more quality time, more space and probably more disposable income when the kids are with me. Now...we also put a heavy priority on quality time with the kids when we have them, so while some discrepancy may be from resource availability, we are definitely applying those resources at what feels like a much higher rate.

So I am at a loss of how to handle this situation. I don’t have a lot of divorced friends and those I do don’t have kids. So I’m hopeful to call upon the collective wisdom here!

My oldest daughter has started complaining regularly to ya about how her mom treats her when she is at the other house. This started a couple weeks ago at school when she started crying to herself because she was thinking about how her mom treats her. When I picked her up, she seemed ‘off’ so we talked with her and it turned into a several hour discussion about all the ways that she feels wronged. There are many examples, but I think the crux of it boils down to her feeling unloved while she is there. My youngest can be a handful, and my oldest feels like the expectation from XW is for her to “manage” her. If anything happens, my oldest gets yelled at or gets “in trouble”. At the same time, she does not feel like she gets any special time or other treatment to counterbalance the stress of that expectation. I believe that she feels like a burden to her mom while she is there.

The other problem is that my XW is a very large personality and can be quite intimidating. My oldest is very fearful of getting in trouble and does not like confrontation in the slightest. We have talked to her about talking to her mom on several occasions but she is not willing to make that step. We’ve offered to have her jot notes to herself or even write a letter to her mom, but even that is too much for her.

My main concern here is the happiness of my daughter. I am not worried about her safety. She is being fed and cared for. There is no immediate physical danger to her. But I am worried about the emotional well being and the future relationship she will have with her mom. The way I see it, there are three options, but none of them are good.

1) keep supporting my daughter and encouraging her to reach out to her mother. We’ve said that XW can’t change until she understands the problem. We are trying to give her all of the tools she needs to be able to have a discussion successfully.

2) I could contact XW directly. My daughter has explicitly asked me not to for fear of getting in trouble. I want to respect her wishes. I also am worried about this route based on past experience. I believe that if this message comes from me or my wife, that it will be ignored or misheard. I do not expect it to have much impact if the words are mine.

3) XWs mom and I still have a very decent and cordial reaction. When we see each other at various events, we can hold a conversation without any tension or stress. In fact, my parents and XWs parents has a get together in 2018. We have floated the idea of a meetup between my daughter and XWs mom so that someone “on that side” can have some awareness and my daughter seems to think that might be ok. But at the same, Ive been here long enough to know that it’s likely XW won’t listen to her either. I’m not so sure the relationship between XW and her mom - they used to be close, but I think her mom still grieves the end of our relationship to some degree.

So.....I’m looking for thoughts. A sounding board. Any other suggestions.
It is painful to see my daughter upset and I know there’s not anything that I can do to “fix” the relationship that she has with her mother.

I’ll hang up and listen smile

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