still struggling

[25yearsmlc]

Jim, in your most recent post you said you worried that you might have been a bit too pushy with ultimatums and that you had a history of this in the m.

Check below and your other posts b/c it's a valid insight on your part.

then why not do what your w suggests?

That's a good question. There's no simple answer.

My thoughts, in no particular order....

I'm pissed about the divorce and feeling a little vindictive.

I'll call the mortgage company and see if I can just drop her from the mortgage on our marital home like she suggests.

If I do not push her to refi, she will let it drag out as long as I let her.


If you do NOT PUSH HER...

Jim, ^^^^


I guess I feel like if we are getting divorced, I should stop protecting her from herself and let her fend for herself.

^^^^^ Per my DB coach, "it's not a spouse's job to show the consequences or teach a lesson to them. Life does that."


In the past, she has failed to follow through on our agreements, with no real repercussions, and this time, forcing her to live with the consequences of her failure to follow through will be a huge 180.

Jim,----....


um, I guess the question is whether you can see how unlikely this is to result in a reconciliation?

Other than avoiding the "punishment for her failure", is there a reason for her to want a recon?

it's not about what you think she deserves.

It is about what helps your situation and your goal. Do you have an IC?

[25yearsmlc]

previous thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2736945&page=11

My WAW and S17 went on a college visit overnight, about 5 1/2 hours away, and left my S there to stay with a friend for the weekend. I was nervous about how the weekend was going to go, but it was great.

I was agreeable and pleasant without being a doormat. For instance, because of her, we got separated from our tour group, and instead of getting angry or upset, I just took it in stride.

jim, you did get angry - you just did not verbalize it. You punished her, you Let her get wet, even when she tried to stay dry. To me, that's not kind behavior. Being a gentleman is not doormat behavior so I'm not sure what the point was

(other than teaching her a lesson about not bringing an umbrella?)

Do you think it might be passive aggressively showing your anger? I'm asking

BUT, when it started raining, I didn't share my umbrella, and just let her get wet. Didn't make a big deal of it, just opened the umbrella and kept walking with the tour.

I kind of laughed when you wrote^^^ that you 'didn't make a big deal of it."

Big deal of what? Not sharing your umbrella?

Jim, you gotta look at this and let this^^ sink in.

She kind of sidled up to me to stay dry, but didn't ask to share and I didn't offer. I also let her know at which hotel I'd booked a room, but didn't offer to share.

I let her know beforehand I didn't want to discuss financing college on the trip because I didn't want either of us to get pissed off and be stuck in a car together for 5 1/2 hours. The three of us had a nice drive up, but I was kind of dreading the ride back with just the two of us in case she insisted on talking about money but she respected my wishes.

The trip was good for a couple of reasons. It was nice spending time with S and W. As we were driving home, she even said she missed the person I had been over the weekend.

And again this morning, I texted her to say I enjoyed our trip, and if she wanted to discuss financing, we could get together today, and she responded by saying "I miss the you that was with us this weekend."

Did you ever respond to those comments?

Positive experience for my S. He loved the school and wants to go there.

BUT, it was a nice reminder of what a pain in the ass she could be (for example, she was 3 hours late picking me up.


so YOU did not have a good weekend? I'm honestly confused.


My 180 was to just take it in stride and not be angry.) and how, in some ways, I'm better off without her.

but there is so much score keeping and resentment going on, it's not really taking "it in stride", is it?

Anyway.... the financing college issue.... if we meet today to discuss financing, I intend to listen and validate her point of view, but insist that I have a different one, that is equally valid.


So you will "listen and validate BUT insist that...a different one"\

which means you are not listening. You are only waiting for her to pause before you can insert and assert your already held position.

She's going to want me to pay for most of our kids' college, and I'm going to explain that I'm willing to pay 50%,

Aside from mind reading, do you make more money than she does? If so, is she insane to want a proportional contribution?

I'm not sure if a court can force you to pay for college. But your kids know who earns what, don't they?

I am sorry to say I agree with you that this is mostly about you punishing her (under the guise of "showing her the consequences of her failure" = her hurting you).

You are right to see this as a pattern. I don't want to beat a dead horse.

I applaud your personal bravery in looking inward, which is where life's journey really is.




but I will do it in the most validating way possible.

[25yearsmlc]

Jim

I read the part about buying her a house- did you say you guys used mutual savings for it?

Is your name on it? How is that to be divided?

And what's the story with your lawyers? Are you not using one? I would.

My son went to NYU and it ain't cheap.

[Rose888]

Whether you agree that it was an ultimatum, surely you accept that you told her that you intend to kick her out of the house she’s living in in two months unless she refinances? And you know she thinks she can’t refinance unless you take her off the marital home (which you told her you wouldn’t do) or get divorced.

Ultimatum or not, you did push her hand toward divorce. What alternative did she have?

[Jim1234]

Jim

I read the part about buying her a house- did you say you guys used mutual savings for it?
We did, but had a written agreement written by my lawyer specifying it was to be treated as early distribution of marital assets. The agreement contains various protections for me.
Is your name on it? How is that to be divided?
My name's on it, but she was supposed to refinance in a year to get my name off it. It's not going to be divided; it's her asset purchased with the early distribution of our assets.
And what's the story with your lawyers? Are you not using one? I would.
Definitely using one.
My son went to NYU and it ain't cheap.

25, after thinking about it for the last day, I came to pretty much the same conclusions. I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I've already apologized via text and asked W if we could get together tomorrow, and I plan to sincerely apologize in person. Don't know if it will do any good, but......

[Jim1234]

Ultimatum or not, you did push her hand toward divorce. What alternative did she have?

Yup, you're right, and I appreciate your insight. We are having lunch tomorrow, I plan to apologize sincerely, and hopefully something good will come out of it.

[25yearsmlc]

Jim,
I think apologies are the start of a conversation, not the end.


You behaved with resentment & passive aggressiveness, so i gotta wonder when that all began. Probably not new, so it may be something to look at. Are you in IC?


In any event, what will you do differently the next time you are angry?

[Jim1234]

Jim,
I think apologies are the start of a conversation, not the end.

I apologized my ass off. Meant every word. Ate a ton of crow. Kind of ashamed of myself for the way I treated her, and told her that. And it led to a very productive conversation. It may not lead anywhere, but we'll see.

I appreciate your comments and insights, 25, and will address them shortly, when I have more time....

[Jim1234]

25, I'd like to address your comments more fully....

you might have been a bit too pushy with ultimatums and that you had a history of this in the m.

Check below and your other posts b/c it's a valid insight on your part.


Yes, I've realized this is a bigger problem than I imagined.

If I do not push her to refi, she will let it drag out as long as I let her.
[/b]

If you do NOT PUSH HER...

Jim, ^^^^

I didn't mean to back her into a corner with my statement about taking the house and evicting her, but it would be completely within her character to let the refinancing languish literally for years if I didn't push it, leaving me as part owner of a house I really don't want. I don't know if is as indicative of my issues as you think, but I will certainly think about it.


I guess I feel like if we are getting divorced, I should stop protecting her from herself and let her fend for herself.

^^^^^ Per my DB coach, "it's not a spouse's job to show the consequences or teach a lesson to them. Life does that."

Yeah, but part of my problem was that I often protected her from life's lessons, and by financing her house, I still am. I was trying to do a 180, but have since realized it was the wrong thing to do.

In the past, she has failed to follow through on our agreements, with no real repercussions, and this time, forcing her to live with the consequences of her failure to follow through will be a huge 180.

Jim,----....


um, I guess the question is whether you can see how unlikely this is to result in a reconciliation?

[color:#CC0000]That's what I lost sight of.

Other than avoiding the "punishment for her failure", is there a reason for her to want a recon?

it's not about what you think she deserves.

It is about what helps your situation and your goal. Do you have an IC?[/color][/quote]

I had an IC, but frankly didn't find much value in it. But I'm rethinking that now.


[quote=25yearsmlc][quote=Jim1234]
Do you think it might be passive aggressively showing your anger? I'm asking[/color]


I suspect there's some of that, and I'll have to explore that.

It was nice spending time with S and W. As we were driving home,[b] she even said she missed the person I had been over the weekend.

And again this morning, I texted her to say I enjoyed our trip, and if she wanted to discuss financing, we could get together today, and she responded by saying "I miss the you that was with us this weekend."

Did you ever respond to those comments?


Yes, I let her know how much I enjoyed it too.



so YOU did not have a good weekend? I'm honestly confused.

Yes, I thoroughly enjoyed myself, and told her that. But that doesn't mean it was ALL rainbows and unicorns.





So you will "listen and validate BUT insist that...a different one"\

which means you are not listening. You are only waiting for her to pause before you can insert and assert your already held position.

Yeah, this is the statement that really made me sit up and take notice. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Seriously, this might be the insight that saves my marriage.

[AnotherStander]

with a number of provisions (written, and signed by us and our lawyers), the most important one being that she would sign a special warranty deed giving me sole ownership of the house if she failed to refinance within a year. This written arrangement gave me absolutely nothing, while protecting me in case the arrangement went south, and I gave her a year to get her financial act together.

Jim, so many of your posts sound like this, like you are her boss and you need to make sure she toes the line. You gave her a whole year! And then what, you're going to bring the hammer down, that's what!! How do you think that makes her feel? If I were her I would feel controlled and manipulated.

I have given her reminders recently, asking not to wait until the last minute to refinance, but today, I reminded her that she only had two months remaining. I told her that I didn't want to 1) continue to co-own the house with her, 2) take possession of the house as her landlord, or 3) take possession and sell it from under her, but to protect myself, I was going to take possession and sell it if she failed to refinance.

Look at what I crossed out above. If you're going to remind her then a simple reminder is all it takes, all that other stuff is just bullying and threatening.

I did it in the most validating, non-threatening, calmest manner I could.

Validating is LISTENING first and then validating her feelings. I would like to hear you describe how you were validating in this conversation, because I suspect you don't understand what validation is. A lot of people here misunderstand validation. And validation is in my opinion one of your most important tools if not the most important one. So understanding what it is and how it works is critical.

Of course she blew a gasket.

The implication here is you knew she would. So you knew you were doing something "wrong" (IE, that it would upset her) and you proceeded anyway. Please ask yourself if you're not just trying to punish her. I mean really, seriously think about that. Ask yourself what your motivations are.

but she sent me a text later that said, in part, "what you did today was present me with an unnecessary, shameful, threatening ultimatum. This behavior is why I left you in the end after years of hoping you would eventually understand the harm and hurt you were causing by giving me ultimatums and threats."

So I would like the community's input.... was it an ultimatum and threat?

Yes, that's how I read it. I think her summary is correct. And like you said in a later post, what really matters is what her perception is, because her perception is her reality.

From my perspective, I was informing her of a business decision that would effect her. She claims she fears she won't be able to refi because her name's still on our marital home, and I need to refi first and give her her half so she not only has cash, but also shows no debt on another house.

It sounds like you've painted her into a corner. She can't make good on the agreement unless the D goes through which would give her the assets to fulfill the agreement, but you're trying to block the D from going through thus denying her the very assets she needs to fulfill the agreement. Basically you're putting her in a situation where she CAN'T fulfill the terms, then you're sending her harassing messages that if she doesn't then you'll be left with "no choice" but to rain hell on her. And then you keep saying it's "just business" and you have to "protect your interests". Do you think that makes her feel better?

p.s. she would say part of the reason for the divorce was issuing ultimatums. I don't see this as an ultimatum, but rather as protecting my interests.

"Ultimatum- a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations." You're telling your W that if she doesn't resolve the issue in two months, then you're going to retaliate to "protect your interests". That's an ultimatum.

Jim, it's time for you to reevaluate. Take stock of your situation and decide where you want to go from here. Do you want to save your M? If so, then that should shape everything you say and do. Before saying ANYTHING to your wife, ask yourself this question:

Is what I am about to say to W getting me closer to my goals, or pushing me farther away?