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dmoy Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: LiM
Dmoy,

I'm going to pass along some 2x4's but that's what you get when you come here.
You had an A and you are an alcoholic.
LRT and going dark are NOT for the person that had an A and has a drinking problem.
You need to be going to IC, AA and doing 180's the likes the which the world has never seen. 180's that are GENUINE, not just to win your W back. You need to be present, giving and humble when it comes to your W. On top of your A and your drinking problem, your W (and you too) are having to deal with a miscarriage. Thats some hard $h!t.
You need to be patient and empathetic with your W. She needs time to see the NEW Dmoy, if you really have changed.
Do NOT bring up R talk. Your W can do that when SHE is ready.


Yup. And going to counseling. Been sober 3.5 months at this point and not looking back. It has not been a struggle period. It was more habitual than anything (numbing, go read Daring Greatly by Brené Brown). And after my wife shared the story of our late friend who she confided in, it gave me even more reason. I just wished she had communicated her feelings more explicitly, or at least during couples counseling last year when we discussed the subject.

I'll enlighten you on some more details I haven't yet shared here-- After the affair and miscarriage, we renewed our wedding vows (last Oct, a day before our 7th anniversary). Given the tone of the recommitment, I'm still trying to figure out how not even 9 months later she fled, but that's beside the point. My resuming drinking, albeit just a fraction of before, was obviously a sore spot, and a bigger one than I was aware of at the time. I think she had some convincing along the way though from friends that I "wasn't going to change" (her words). There have been posts on FB some in my family have seen where her friends were very anti-me.

She has good days and bad days. Limiting conversation seems to have improved things (removed pressure about our future), so that's good. LRT does pretty much fit my situation though. And although I can't truly go dark given that she sees me 6 days at week to some degree and I have the kids at some point every day, she's well aware of how I'm doing and how I'm doing with them.

Not working through the A or miscarriage is on me. I was ashamed of the A and didn't want to talk about it, just move on. After she left the second time, I realized that it was important that we work through it. Unfortunately our counselor never really advised this during our earlier sessions. I really wish I had "Dealing with Infidelity" a year ago...


M:33 W:36
T:10 M:7
D8, D6
EA->PA (me) July/Aug '16
W move out 8/30/16
Recon M 9/7/16
S0 (miscarried) 9/13/16
W moved back 9/17/16
BD/WAW 6/24/17 while out of town
Home to empty apartment 6/27/17
Joined: Aug 2012
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dmoy, hello and welcome! It would help us if you could put a timeline in your signature. It sounds like you're doing well with DBing and congrats on staying sober, that's clearly a huge 180 in your case! The one thing I will say is I get the impression from reading your posts that you're expecting a turnaround too soon. Once a spouse gets to the point of dropping the bomb, they have convinced themselves that they are 100% done. You cannot convince them otherwise, and the more you try the more it pushes them away. You live for YOU. You do 180's for YOU. You GAL for YOU. Eventually her position may soften and then she'll look back, and you want her to see a stronger, better, more independent, more confidence you. That may attract her back. But you have to take a long-term approach because it can take a year or more before a WAS might change their mind. Good luck and keep posting!


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 38
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dmoy Offline OP
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Well, back for the first time in a while. Things seemed to improve over Christmas. Had been separated around 6 months at that point. Got the courage to ask WAW over for Christmas dinner since I had the kids that afternoon and she had no plans. After a bit of convincing she actually agreed which shocked me. She came, and had a good time.

Over Christmas break I had the opportunity to spend time time w/ her and the kids on a few occasions. We goofed around, did things together and had a good time. I focused on my kids while there but noticed her constantly watching me out of the corner of my eye. Checking out my my interactions with the kids and smiling. Things seemed to be going good. The first week of her back to work after the break went OK, but that weekend she spent with friends and seemingly has reverted to being her old self.

I've recognized that work stresses her out and have tried to empathize, help mitigate, encourage, and even take the kids sometimes to eliminate additional stress. But I think some of her work friends that she vented to last year were culprits in WAW becoming a reality and giving up on our marriage shortly after renewing our vows. I can't say for certain, but the perception is she spent time with them and then completely changed her tune.

I understand there will be ups and downs, but this seems a bit extreme. Maybe not. I don't think there's much I can do about who she surrounds herself with. I just need to remind myself to move on and hopefully at some point she stops listening to the people stoking the hatred in her heart. Even worse is that I've noticed some of her other friends, the ones who did encourage her to work on things with me the first time, are now "separated."

Last edited by Cadet; 01/20/18 01:43 AM. Reason: threads merged

M:33 W:36
T:10 M:7
D8, D6
EA->PA (me) July/Aug '16
W move out 8/30/16
Recon M 9/7/16
S0 (miscarried) 9/13/16
W moved back 9/17/16
BD/WAW 6/24/17 while out of town
Home to empty apartment 6/27/17
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 38
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dmoy Offline OP
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Any thoughts on apologies? I've appologized a few times for various things but it never really seemed like it connected. I was reading "When Sorry Isn't Enough" by Gary Chapman and made me thing whether or not I was apologizing the wrong way, not empathizing with the pain she felt after the affair. The typical guy "I said I'm sorry, lets move on", though I've given more heartfelt apologies since she moved out the second time. I'm just on the fence on whether it'll help or push her away more. I suppose that's more in how I give the apology (not begging to come back, etc).

I saw it mentioned in the MWD Infidelity book, but not in as much detail other than apologize and keep apologizing, rather than the "how" aspect.

I'd hate for all the hard work I've done to be in vain because I half-a$$ed an apology and the one reason she never gave me another chance was because she felt I didn't regret what I did to her.


M:33 W:36
T:10 M:7
D8, D6
EA->PA (me) July/Aug '16
W move out 8/30/16
Recon M 9/7/16
S0 (miscarried) 9/13/16
W moved back 9/17/16
BD/WAW 6/24/17 while out of town
Home to empty apartment 6/27/17
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 38
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dmoy Offline OP
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Had a decent week with WAW but so far she still seems hesitant do do anything IRT working on things.

Two weeks ago was a bit rough with Valentines Day. Got wife and kids cards. Nothing special for W, just a friendly card (no "I love you") and a gift card for a spot she frequents. Sunday was filled with surprise church membership which left me sad because a month before she had gone to a meeting and I was unable to attend. When I inquired about the membership meeting she brushed it off like there was nothing that would immediately come of it. Imagine my shock 4 weeks later when she was in front of the church becoming a member and I was left sitting there with the kids.

I left her alone for a day because I wasn't in the mood to talk after feeling lied to. I was hurt and didn't have much nice to say so I opted to say nothing at all. Then on Monday (next day) out of the blue she asked if I wanted to spend some time with the kids together. We had a good time, things seemed better. Later that evening I took the kids to their counseling appointment, and had the opportunity to read to them before bed. Tuesday went well, she even joked with me when I dropped the kids off. It's nice for those times when she lets her guard down and jokes with me. Wednesday evening I got a surprise visit from them on their way home from girl scouts.

Friday night I took the kids to W's school where she was volunteering for an evening activity. We hung out for an hour or so and she thanked me later for brining the kids. Saturday when she came to pick them up she came in and hung out for a bit.

Today I finally decided to bring up the subject of next Saturday. I had gotten tickets for a Gary Chapman seminar that was happening at a local church. I very simply asked if she wanted to join me and she declined. I'm being patient, and I'll wait forever if I have to, but my concern is around me and my past. Despite the huge personal changes I've made, she seems unwilling to talk about anything.

One comment that stands out from last spring during one of the fights a month or so before she moved out was that she'd never be able to trust me again. Additionally she told me that she feels I was verbally abusive and that I cheated on her because I hated her. This information came after she moved out. I think there were some friends involved and some promises made to/by them to not let her get back together with me.

I've read (and re-read) both Divorce Remedy and Healing from Infidelity (particularly the doing it alone / when betrayed spouse wants out chapter.)

My question becomes that the verbal abuse part is a wild card not addressed in either book. And for some people they equate this with being as bad as physical abuse which means no return under any circumstances. While I admit I acted controlling and had said mean things at times, but I definitely didn't do it out of spite or hate. I'm not sure how to overcome this. I hurt her and feel horrible for that.

I had thought about putting the verbal abuse issue on the back burner for now and not getting hung up on it until I know for certain it's a blocker and focus rather on rebuilding trust-- asking what I did last year that eroded her trust for good and asking what I can do specifically to help get her to trust me again.

The one thing that I didn't try in Healing from Infidelity was the written letter (pg 176).

Thoughts on any of all of the above? Really just looking for ideas at this point.


M:33 W:36
T:10 M:7
D8, D6
EA->PA (me) July/Aug '16
W move out 8/30/16
Recon M 9/7/16
S0 (miscarried) 9/13/16
W moved back 9/17/16
BD/WAW 6/24/17 while out of town
Home to empty apartment 6/27/17
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,152
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Originally Posted By: dmoy
Had a decent week with WAW but so far she still seems hesitant do do anything IRT working on things.


And she won't be interested in working on things for a long, long time. There are a lot of deep-seated issues that brought you to this point and it is completely understandable that she has lost all trust. What took this long to tear apart is not going to be rebuilt overnight. 180's plus time = change she can believe in. You've got to do 180's on your issues, and you have got to stick to those 180's for months or even years before she will believe it's real.

Quote:
I left her alone for a day because I wasn't in the mood to talk after feeling lied to.


Is that not "more of the same" behavior? Add "No More Mister Nice Guy" to your reading list, it's not what the title sounds like. It deals with the "nice guy" syndrome and the passive/aggressive behavior you're engaging in (like a lot of us did).

Quote:
I was hurt and didn't have much nice to say so I opted to say nothing at all. Then on Monday (next day) out of the blue she asked if I wanted to spend some time with the kids together. We had a good time, things seemed better. Later that evening I took the kids to their counseling appointment, and had the opportunity to read to them before bed. Tuesday went well, she even joked with me when I dropped the kids off. It's nice for those times when she lets her guard down and jokes with me. Wednesday evening I got a surprise visit from them on their way home from girl scouts.

Friday night I took the kids to W's school where she was volunteering for an evening activity. We hung out for an hour or so and she thanked me later for brining the kids. Saturday when she came to pick them up she came in and hung out for a bit.


All of that is fine but don't put any hope in it, she's likely just prepping you for "life after D". I'm not saying not to have any hope at all, I'm just saying that this kind of stuff is pretty typical and does not mean she's changed her mind yet.

Quote:
Today I finally decided to bring up the subject of next Saturday. I had gotten tickets for a Gary Chapman seminar that was happening at a local church. I very simply asked if she wanted to join me and she declined.


Don't say anything to her about it again, and you should go anyway.

Quote:
I'm being patient, and I'll wait forever if I have to, but my concern is around me and my past. Despite the huge personal changes I've made, she seems unwilling to talk about anything.


How long has it been since BD? If less than a year then no, you're not being patient! You've got to stop the pressure and give her time and space while you work on yourself. Settle in for the long haul.

Quote:
My question becomes that the verbal abuse part is a wild card not addressed in either book. And for some people they equate this with being as bad as physical abuse which means no return under any circumstances. While I admit I acted controlling and had said mean things at times, but I definitely didn't do it out of spite or hate. I'm not sure how to overcome this. I hurt her and feel horrible for that.


You should apologize to her (specifically) for that, but don't apologize over and over. One heartfelt apology and a pledge to do better no matter what the outcome of your M. Thank her for sharing it with you.

Quote:
and focus rather on rebuilding trust-- asking what I did last year that eroded her trust for good and asking what I can do specifically to help get her to trust me again.


Unfortunately the time for that has passed. She's two feet out the door now and more than likely will not want to talk about it. Your focus should not be to "help her trust you again", it should be to fix the things you need to fix for you, your kids, and your future whether W is in it or not. After lots of time she may look at that new person and decide she wants a relationship with him.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 38
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dmoy Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
And she won't be interested in working on things for a long, long time. There are a lot of deep-seated issues that brought you to this point and it is completely understandable that she has lost all trust. What took this long to tear apart is not going to be rebuilt overnight. 180's plus time = change she can believe in. You've got to do 180's on your issues, and you have got to stick to those 180's for months or even years before she will believe it's real.


Yeah. I'm trying to be patient.

Quote:
Is that not "more of the same" behavior? Add "No More Mister Nice Guy" to your reading list, it's not what the title sounds like. It deals with the "nice guy" syndrome and the passive/aggressive behavior you're engaging in (like a lot of us did).


I read this and now have more questions than answers. While I think some of the info is good, the book itself seems to be totally fine with pushing divorce which runs opposite to the goal here. The pendulum swing is too big.

We had an agreement on child support and she decided to file for it through the court after employer cut my (and all management) pay for 2 checks because they were having payroll issues. I've told her before I don't feel it's fair and she's trying to get more money. She's out spending like she won the lottery and I'm living paycheck to paycheck and have no money to do anything with the kids when I have them. Based on the calculator I'm going to end up paying even more month to month.

Yesterday I tried to set some boundaries and asked her to pay her portion of the cell phone bill and car insurance that I'm still paying. All that did was blow up in my face.

Quote:
How long has it been since BD? If less than a year then no, you're not being patient! You've got to stop the pressure and give her time and space while you work on yourself. Settle in for the long haul.


18 months since the affair and we got back together. 8 1/2 months since BD and she moved out while I was out of town for work.

In DR, MWD said general rule of thumb was 1 month for every year of marriage, 7 in my case. Are expectations way too low? I understand it's different for everyone and I can do things to set things back but that seems like conflicting advice.

Quote:
You should apologize to her (specifically) for that, but don't apologize over and over. One heartfelt apology and a pledge to do better no matter what the outcome of your M. Thank her for sharing it with you.


Wrote her a 2 page apology letter as recommended in the doing it alone section of Healing form Infidelity and gave it to her 2 weeks ago. Made my peace.

Quote:
Unfortunately the time for that has passed. She's two feet out the door now and more than likely will not want to talk about it. Your focus should not be to "help her trust you again", it should be to fix the things you need to fix for you, your kids, and your future whether W is in it or not. After lots of time she may look at that new person and decide she wants a relationship with him.


Yesterday (and earlier this week) I had asked her to be more open/explicit/honest with me. This was one of my biggest complaints that I let go when we were together. I'd say things were fine but never communicated my need for her to be explicit with me. She did send some photos of the kids last night even though our talk blew up a bit.

She keeps saying she just wants what's best for the kids (w/o reconciling) but she's a product of a broken home and has father issues similar to the NMMNG issues they have with their mothers. I feel deep down she knows that the best for our girls is for us to reconcile but she made it pretty clear last night that was an impossible task. This is based off her feelings she voiced when we renewed our wedding vows ("I hope our girls strive to have a relationship like ours and I want to show them how important marriage is.", 18 months ago). The last thing I want for my girls is to grow up in that situation, resenting one or both of us. My girls are awesome and they deserve better.

I'm done fighting with her and made it clear that I'm fighting for her because I believe in her marriage.

It's just really sad because my 6 year old said she's now afraid of marriage because she thinks that if she yells at her kids, her husband will leave with them and she'll never see them again. So heartbreaking. 😢


M:33 W:36
T:10 M:7
D8, D6
EA->PA (me) July/Aug '16
W move out 8/30/16
Recon M 9/7/16
S0 (miscarried) 9/13/16
W moved back 9/17/16
BD/WAW 6/24/17 while out of town
Home to empty apartment 6/27/17
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 38
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dmoy Offline OP
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So after my last post, I had a conversation with her over text shortly before/after I had posted. It was somewhat serious and after she reiterated she just wants what's best for the kids I insinuated I think we both know that's reconciliation. These were the words on the top of her mind when we renewed our wedding vows after all.

Things seemingly turned around that week. She spent some time with us. Joked around. There was lots of eye contact and her body language was overall better. It seemed like things were headed in a good direction. She even mentioned putting me on her dental insurance when she goes through open enrollment. To me that meant she wasn't intending to file for divorce immediately and was maybe considering the future.

This weekend she declined to visit my family because she felt uncomfortable and that's understandable. Because the kids would be with me an extra night I gave her the opportunity to hang out with us some on Saturday before we left. On Sunday when she had the kids they came down to get bikes to ride to the park. I ended up tagging along and we had a great time again spending a few hours together as a family.

Monday night things took a turn for the worse. She's been complaining about me hanging around at drop-off the past 2 weeks (really the only complaint she's had) because the kids want me to read bedtime stories, etc. 10 months after they were ripped from their home and they're still suffering through their parents being separated. So after I left to go home WAW texted and pushed for me to drop off and not hang out because she perceives that as the source of the problems. Thinking things had been improving and with my back up a wall in resolving my living situation in < 60 days I brought up the elephant in the room being our separation taking a toll on the kids. After some back and forth discussion and her bringing up lots of things I did including the "you wanted this and wanted to be with someone else" (almost 2 years ago at this point) and things I did wrong when we got back together and briefly tried counseling. She then brought up how the kids now have a safe place to live which is a bit of the farce because I get my kids every day before school and 3 nights a week. If I were yelling at the kids at all they wouldn't be here. The fact they never want to leave me is a testament to how they're being treated now that I'm in their life and being the father they need. I'm glad for the decision she made because it woke me up, but I'm sad for her seeming stubbornness to improve the situation.

She ended her discussion with she's been hurt too much and doesn't feel the same about me. The last line was very negative and something I'm seeing mirrored in my kids now. "I can't change the way I feel." My youngest (6) is very moody saying "everybody hates me, nobody wants to be my friend or family", etc. If she does one thing wrong she sees herself as a bad person. Its hard for her to come up with something to be thankful for.

I have to accept that as the truth because those are her feelings, but I don't accept it as a definitive reality because for the past 5 weeks, her behavior and body language was anything but. It feels like she may be having an EA with someone and they're pressuring into leaving me permanently for whatever reason.

I think most of this came to a head because I'm under the gun on my lease renewing in 45 days and being locked in for another 12 months with a very cost prohibitive out clause. Living paycheck to paycheck in financial suicide with debt we can't pay off. Assuming she didn't leave last June and we maintained a single household, the debt would be all paid off by now and we would have had 4-5 months of savings in the bank.

Trying to be patient but I'm at a loss of what to do. Today I'm trying to go dark and just not text at all for a few days aside from kid stuff. They're getting dropped off tonight and I'm not even going to get out of the car. She can have her way and deal with them leaving me and see how they behave when it's just her.


M:33 W:36
T:10 M:7
D8, D6
EA->PA (me) July/Aug '16
W move out 8/30/16
Recon M 9/7/16
S0 (miscarried) 9/13/16
W moved back 9/17/16
BD/WAW 6/24/17 while out of town
Home to empty apartment 6/27/17
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 9,822
Likes: 226
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dmoy, would it be safe to say you are a very reactive person? As in if someone pushes you, you push back? If someone disses you you diss back? If someone insults you, you insult back?

I am the same way, that is why I recognize it in you. That is why you are doing this passive-aggressive "hey're getting dropped off tonight and I'm not even going to get out of the car." Is that really the reaction that will get you ahead?

You should have validated when she texted you: "nd pushed for me to drop off and not hang out because she perceives that as the source of the problems." You should have responded with a validating response (see the sticky on validation). If she responded to validation, validate again.

Tonight when you drop the kids off, go in. Say goodnight to them. And leave in a timely manner. She'll be the one that deals with the fallout from the kids not getting their normal routine. Don't be angry. Don't be pouty. Don't be passive-aggressive. Interact with her the way you normally do, but read the thread on detachment and put it into practice.

I think you'll get more mileage out of DBing than you will out of being passive-aggressive and reactionary.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
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Dmoy,

I agree with Steve, it seems like you are trying to punish your W for her feelings. She is hurt and harboring resentment. You have to validate those feelings. You can't tell her how to feel. You told her you wanted to be with another woman. People whole on to things like that for years. You are a few months into showing her a different person.

She will be up and down. She is confused, you have to stay steady and consistent. If you wavier and become vindictive in your approach then you are only proving her point, and showing her you only changed to get her back. The changes you have made should have been for you and not to get your W back. Your changes should have been to improve yourself.

Your W is hurt, she has to grieve and get out all the pain, the best way for her to do that is for you to validate and acknowledge your wrongs when she brings them up.

You need to post more often as well.

I glad to see that relationship with your kids getting better. Keep up the hard work.


M:37 W:37
T:11 M:10
S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Recon the M 10/29/17
Working hard:2gether

Onward and forward

This process is not a sprint it's a marathon! Patience, Patience, Patience.
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