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JujuB Offline OP
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I had been the one that had my ex served the divorce papers. I was advised by my attorneys to do so.

I remember getting the phone call from the guy that served him, and crying to know that it was done. I felt like I had betrayed my ex. I was really wrong about this. It was humiliating. And as it turned out, going through lawyers instead of mediating was a really big and expensive mistake and choice I made.

At the time, I was emotionally charged and ultra paranoid. I had so much fear. I did not trust my ex. He was a villain in my eyes. I did not feel like I could mediate. I felt like he was hiding something. And he was. Just not what I thought.

Through this legal process, he was not dishonest. He handed in all the papers as he should have. He did not harass me, or bully me or threaten me in any way. I think I could have been more the bully if I had voiced to him the things that I was thinking, and thinking about doing. Or if I had a different lawyer.

I disliked my lawyer because they were not cut throat, but in reality, its an arrangement that is not too unfair to either of us. I waived alimony. I did not go after his retirement funds or stock options, and I did not go after the missing money. I did not humiliate him with drug testing.
Right now, I am ok with that and kind of happy with the arrangement. But there were many times my mind went there. Out of anger, rightousness, entitlement, feeling like a victim, like someone who had no control, vengefullness...I don't know.

During our marriage, he was not honest about money. He had incurred secret debt. He had spending habits that were really scary and affected us as a family. He does not see that, because he feels it was his money and he could do what he liked with it. I had sensed this secrecy, I think our whole relationship and reacted with mistrust and resentment and it became a "mine is mine mentality" which was awful.

He is the one that left. At a time, I was my lowest. He was picking fights, or doing things that he knew I would fight and complain about so that he could feel justified with me as a villain.

Prior to that, I was not the best wife. I was cynical and negative and lazy. I did not give enough. I definatly took our relationship for granted.

I was 100% loyal though and would never have left him. (unless he cheated) I thought that was enough for him, because it was what was enough for me in a marriage. But it wasnt. Maybe he is right in this.

I will end up seeking out another relationship. I want to share life with a partner and to have my own family unit. But I feel deeply saddened that it cannot be my ex.

Anyway, I am about to sign my divorce decree. It feels horrible. I still love my husband..I guess unconditionally. I am mad at him. But I still love him. I feel bad that ending the marriage was an option for him.

I wonder if he will go out and celebrate with his friends tonight or if he will feel as bad as I do.


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"Its been almost 2 weeks since I realized what the core problem was. It was only through financial disclosure that I figured it out." I had a similar experience a month ago. The first day I read the factual info I was in shock. The second day I had to go through things in mega-detail for my lawyer and I was more shocked. And shocked I was still capable of feeling shocked.

Some facts were just obvious facts. Big cash withdrawals. A secret parallel life with OW. Huge debt for someone living for free in a family apartment in London & for free with OW. Evidence of fraud and lies and something going on needing big dollops of cash. Like your H, my STBXH works in the City, uk version of Wall St...You said "I figured it out"...actually you made a best-guess based on the information you have which is necessary but slightly different. Do you KNOW it is drugs? Or is that just the most likely explanation? I struggled to separate FACTS (x amount withdrawn from x place on x date) from INFERENCES (which means y). What do I know factually and which bits of that matter? And why?

Some things matter legally...if he is hiding money, evidence of fraud, his financial links with OW, the pattern of lies suggesting he is more likely to be lying than not.

Some things matter emotionally...the shock and scale of the lies, how it makes me feel about him, about me and about our past marriage. Some things in our sitch are very different. We have no children. I have little doubt that my STBXH is in full party MLC. I know that my H loved me deeply and cared about our marriage. That we were a team...until he resigned from it. But I also know that my beloved H always lied, I just didn't think he lied to me. I saw him lie to other people over the years...family, work, friends. When he lied it was usually because a) it was easier to say yes than no b) he didn't want to hurt someone else's feelings and deal with that or c) he felt ashamed of something he felt or had failed to do.

I can deal with the legal/practical realities. The emotional second-guessing of our marriage and who he was/is is much harder for me. Trusting someone for 20 years and having no big reasons to doubt them (but maybe I didn't look hard enough?) and then having to shift to a point where your starting place is assuming lies. I felt/feel sometimes as if everything I thought was true maybe wasn't, and that's a tough spot to stand. Like you, I love my husband still - or the core person I thought he was - and like you I probably took our love for granted.

Here is where I try to reach for....accepting that I don't know what broke him only that he is broken. That both current reality and my memory of past reality are mine to define and both as real as each other. It isn't an either/or. That I love my H and my STBXH thinks D is the only option for him. That D keeps me financially safer right now even if it breaks my heart. That I don't know if I will ever know the truth behind the lies, or what will happen to him, or me. But I do know that my M, and my life with my H, brought me many blessings. Much as I hate where I am now, I am still grateful for those blessings. And sad they are gone.

In a few weeks when our D is finalised, I don't know if my H will celebrate or not. I will have mixed emotions like you and it is most likely that your H does too. None of this is either/or.


Me: 53 H:38
T:20 M:14
BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression
S 1/16
PA 4/16
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JujuB Offline OP
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Thank you for posting treasur

There is often a part of me that thinks, "hey. Maybe I am creating this drug addiction issue because I needed an answer, or did not want to accept that perhaps I was an abusive wife like he said, or feel more comfortable with drug addiction then an an affair partner because I can rationalize it as a disease ".

The only factual proof I would have was a drug test or admittal.

Circumstantially, .when looked at on there own they don't mean anything, but together.....
1. Missing money from ATMs in bad and out of the way neighborhoods for 800 dollars weekly. Going back a minimum of 3 years.
2. Daily cash withdrawals of 100 dollars minimal.
3. Withdrew enormous amounts out of his IRA to pay off credit card debt which made no sense. Credit cards were just being paid by minimums. Nothing outrageous on them.
3. Sleeping late and through alarm clocks. (Till mid to late afternoons)
4. Lots of secret errands that made no sense. (Like he would leave to go somewhere during a snow storm)
5. Refused a drug test, and agreed to supervised overnights.
6. Admitted to problem with alcohol and depression.
7. Found cc statements with high monthly bills to liquor stores going on a minimum of 5 years. He drank in secret and at night when I was sleeping.
8. Awake all night.
9. What I thought were IBS issues, but finding they also are a sign of withdrawals. Lots of Imodium. Which I recently discovered is used for withdrawals.
10. Was warned way before I was married and I didn't believe that person. I imagined an addict as someone that was very skinny and intoxicated, and unable to keep a job. I thought the person telling me heard the info from someone jealous. I thought maybe they exaggerated some recreational or experimental use in the past.
11. Looking back, He had an incredible wealth of knowledge about drugs. I thought he had an amazing memory from a pharmacology class he took in college...but drug pharmacology had nothing to do with his major, so why take it?


Knowing for sure would have affected me legally. I chose not to pursue. But if he had been hiding money with the intention of leaving me, then I would have pursued. I gambled on this.

It's also important to know to protect my son. he is very high functioning now. But I am still not sure what to do other then the supervised overnights. I can demand testing anytime, if I see anything suspicious. But I dont. He comes across as so damn polite and professional and alert. It's now in decree, that he is not allowed to use illicit substances when with son. If I do have to take him to court it's also in decree that he will be responsible for legal fees if he is not following decree. I just don't know what to do regarding this.

Emotionally, it's been hard. Regardless of whether there was drug issues he was living a double life regarding money. He was in places, he never told me about for years. We have been separated for over 2 years, but this info was recent and something I am coming to terms with. When I first found out I couldn't get out of bed. People all thought I should be over it and moving on, but it hit me hard emotionally

(It is good you are discovering this early on)

He was not a liar like your ex. But a liar in a different way. But I always knew he was someone that didn't voluntarily give information. He lived a separate life. And he was an evader of direct questions. I would have to know what to ask to get a straight answer and even then, I would have to be knowledgeable of the ways that he deflected or curtailed around it.

I don't know what it would be like to be in a relationship with someone that was open and shared his life, and feelings with me. I view all men to be like my ex. A guy that wants to talk and share would seem very weird and maybe even unmasculine to me. I have mixed feelings about dating. Excited but also not sure if I am ready or have the time to commit to someone. Trusting someone again is scary too. I don't trust my judgement in knowing a good and honest partner. What if next time around, he is a secret pedophile? Or sex addict?

When we trust in a partner we risk our lives and children's lives. Choosing a partner wisely is a big responsibility.


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Hi juju. I think it sounds as if your priority is your son's safety and that he meets the financial terms of your decree. For the second, it doesn't matter if he is spending his money on unicorns - it's his life - as long as he meets his payments to you right? For your son, it sounds as if you don't assume but keep a wise eye open and jump into action at the first bit of concrete evidence.

My situation is a bit different. My husband was open and sharing with me...until he stopped and then ran off to MLC world. Good thing about that is I know what being in a trusting team feels like. Bad thing is that it makes who he is now even more shocking and tough to adjust too! Actually I think being open is very sexy because it is about being confident in who you are.

Not all men are the same. Not all people are the same. And it makes sense that trust is an issue after life gives us a kicking. I guess that is part of our own DB efforts to be a better version of us? The starting point has to be about trusting our own judgement. How do you think you can start building confidence in yours now? I suppose trust has two halves...your ability to trust wisely and what other people do to show you they are trustworthy. Don't rush to date...you'll know when you're ready and you can take it slow.


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Thanks treasur

I have been reading your thread, and you are doing amazing despite such a drastic change in your ex. You seem to have acted wisely, and swiftly and you are going to come out of this OK. It's sad though. It's a huge loss. An elective death by your spouse.

I am truly under the opinion that if our spouses are capable of doing this once, whether in the name of depression or MLC they will do it again. There is something in them that just makes it ok for them to treat some one they were very close to in this way. Their perspective, the way they view life and relationships. It's just different. It's like trying to understand the opposite political party. It's two different brains acting and believing differently. I think we are at odds with ourselves when we are trying to appeal to them to come back. And that's why it often doesn't work.

You are right though. My ex and I never had a true partnership. He told me "nothing will change for you" when he left and he was right except I ended up with more money and more help with son. It took my son a week to even know his dad was gone. I am told by other people who saw what our relationship was like, how wonderful it will feel being in a real relationship with someone. I want to experience that with someone truly vested.


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So what I need help and advice on is how to cope with the feeling of powerlessness.

I am going to vent now.

I have been angry for so long, but what it's really stems from is the feeling of powerlessness. My ex was not treating me the way a partner should prior to BD. I reacted with anger. My ex left us in a really bad way and once again I responded with intense feelings of anger.

Now my divorce papers are signed and I am really angry at my lawyers and at myself for not mediating to avoid lawyers and at my ex for not being forthcoming and for all his secrecy which made me feel like I needed a lawyer to protect me.

My bill is extremely high considering we had no custody battle, I had a child support settlement already in place, and we had no assets. The lawyers basically billed me for strategizing amongst themselves that it was not worth the legal funds for me to pursue alimony or financial discovery. They are probably right about that because their fees are so high. But during my paid for consultation, of course they talked about how they would uncover the unexplained Cash withdrawals, and how I needed an advocate. Hell they sat on my ex's bank statements and then gave it to me to go through when I expressed to them how uncomfortable I was waiving disclosure. 4 days before our meeting in court! That's when I discovered all that missing money.

I didn't know what I didn't know back then. And now am realizing how talented this firm was at billing and how they really didn't try to advocate for me. I had to look up laws and Insist on any little provision that would benefit me because either they didn't know or didn't care.

My education was just as long and difficult as their education was, yet one lawyer does not know her stuff and strategizes with the partner and I get double billed. Two lawyers at in a meeting with me and I was billed over 900.00 for the hour. A phone conference for the 3 of us which was under ten minutes and they each billed me for 30 minutes. Lots of other questionable stuff as well. I was given the less expensive lawyer after being told it would save me money. But the less expensive lawyer (400/hour) needed reviews and edits from the more expensive lawyer so I was billed for that. I am also seeing that the less expensive lawyer did everything herself. And am going to question why a secretary or paralegal did not do anything.

I think I am right. But I am not sure what the monetary claim should be.

I read on line all this sentiment from attorneys justifying the way they bill and they are so frigen arrogant. There's so many of them out there, I don't know why they have this power.

I am most likely going to arbitrate but am obviously stressed about it. Has any one here had to do that?

I want to recommend a site for woman undergoing this process to go to by a consumer rights attorney named Karen winner. She wrote a book called Divorced from Justice, which seems to describe what I have been going through. (I think I can mention it here as it does not in any way compete with divorce busters as it calls for advocacy for misrepresented women). I wish I was in the mind set to have researched better before I went throught all this. She talks about how middle class women are put at a huge disadvantage regarding the legal system and divorce. And how vulnerable we are to predator attorneys.

Anyway, I just want to put this all past me so I can move forward.

I am scared about meeting up with the attorneys to discuss billing because they are sleazy and are going to deny, and gaslight, and twist things around. But I am also angry because they have done it in a way that is just sneaky and I don't even know what to ask for.

I am fearful about having to go up against attorneys in arbitration if they don't amend the bill (which I doubt they will to the extent I Want them to)

It doesn't make sense for me to be fearful. I have nothing to lose. Arbitration is free. My time is worth very minimum compared to theirs. Any complaints I file can make things difficult for them but only if others complain too (in my state there is no way to look up if other people complained about them). There is a technical error in the retainer that would be to my advantage as I never signed anything accepting the cheaper lawyer and it specifically says in the retainer that any changes made, I would need to sign.

Even so, I hate the conflict and anxiety, and inability to out closure on all of this.

Anybody out there have a similar situation?


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Hi Juju,

I'm sorry you are having a difficult time and I understand the anger. I would be angry too! Unfortunately or fortunately, I have no experience with attorneys as I handled it all myself.

Sending you a hug. Hang in there!



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Juju - I spent some time and hard emotional work on powerlessness last year. And fear which is really the root of it. At the time, I felt attacked from all sides by the huge impact of things completely outside my control...the financial & legal impact of not having a power of attorney for my mother with dementia, my H's endless trickle shocks of WTF, surgery for cancer and divorce papers dropping through the letterbox. Everything felt unmanageable and destructive.

Here's where my thoughts took me, if it helps. First of all, as humans we comfort ourselves by living as if we know for sure that B follows A. The truth is none of us know what will happen next but it is hard to live with the honesty of uncertainty, even though it's the truth. As a reformed fixer too, it is really uncomfortable for me to see how little control I have over things that have such a big impact on my life. Then I read a quote, something along the lines of 'If a problem doesn't have a solution you can make, it isn't a problem, just a truth that needs to be accepted'.

So then I set myself three challenges. One was to be really honest about my fears. Hard to do but it gave me a sort of fear priority list, a top two or three. The other was to be really tough-minded about what I could do particularly in those situations where it felt like every option was a lousy one. Even if it was small or far from perfect. The third was to think what would make me FEEL more powerful, even when my choices were limited.

For me, that was the game changer. It might be different for you, but for me, my power was about choosing to not let the situation drive me away from who I am and the reality of my own history. I can't stop my H creating an expensive legal mess through his own choices, but I can choose to be pragmatic about it and give myself time to think before I act. I can't change that I was left with the rubble of 20 years of our life, and 50 years of my parents, while everyone else 'ran away', but I can choose how I invest time and energy in it. So, for instance, I decided to leave our old house while it was still up for sale and rent a new place by the sea. Not the smartest financial choice, and I'd assumed at first I couldn't, but staying in the old house was killing me mentally...I can't tell you how liberating it was to make that choice for myself.

It is a natural human reaction to trauma that you want to run, for this to be over with. You said two things that struck me; "I don't even know what to ask for." and "It doesn't make sense for me to be fearful." That's probably the key...take a deep breath and muse on what you need and want, and what the fear is really about.

Hope that helps xxx


Me: 53 H:38
T:20 M:14
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S 1/16
PA 4/16
H filed 1/17

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I am very sorry (and pisssed) you are going through this. My lawyer ripped me off too. Told me I wouldn't have to go above the 5k retainer and boy she was wrong. And we had the most straightforward D. She kept wording stuff incorrectly in correspondences and she kept charging me to do it over again. Right before the D I apparently owed her $1800. I told her I was paying for her shabby work. She said she wouldn't show up at court, and I told her fine. I went to court all alone (8 years ago yesterday) and that was that, we were divorced.

She sent me bills for years, I finally moved and she never got my new address. Nor did she ever put me in collections because I think she knows she is a sheister. I pass by her office everyday to drop D9 off and scowl at it, haha.

So, you are in a tricky situation as you are not done yet, but I would be like, "hey, you aren't going to see your money" Most know they are crooked and don't go after you.

Good luck and I am sorry this has been so bumpy.

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Ginger, this firm is brilliant at billing people but not the best at thinking critically to advocate for someone.

I am forced to pay the bills within 41 days. Right now my papers are signed and completed. They have not submitted them to the court. I notice that they time things out...visits with court, emailing me paper work very late etc to ensure that the client pays the bills.


I think I am going to pay them and then either take them to arbitration, or perhaps seek consultation with a consumer advocate lawyer. Once you arbitrate, you cannot claim malpractice. But I can still argue legal bills.

It's not a huge amount in the scheme of things (6 grand over the 10,000 retainor fee so far and more to come) although a lot for me and a lot considering my case was ptobably as simple as yours. but there should be protection against this for other people who are vulnerable during this time.


M: 42
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Twins age 5
WAH in summer
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