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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2740639#Post2740639


Thought I would re-post my last response as this is a new thread smile


Job, SBJ and Coly.......thank you so much for your words.

Job....thank you for asking questions that made me think. As far as spending time together..... H does do things freely. He is usually very willing to do whatever will make things easier for me. He comes to my place no matter what time of the day it is. I have offered to go to his instead, but he says he prefers to come to mine. He has spent the night with me several times, and even though my place is not convenient for him and his schedule (working out, going to work), he doesn't mind getting up earlier then his usual.

He does tell me that he enjoys spending time with me...and I believe him. One morning I was getting ready for work, he had the day off, and I was in the bathroom getting dressed, and the dogs were of course right there in the middle things. He looked at me and said "I miss this"......I asked him if he meant being there together as a "family" and doing what families do and he said "yes"......I was surprised to hear him say that.

As far as the trust thing......I think he is scared to really show his feelings for me, and I think that is why he says he is still trying to learn how to trust me. Long before me, H was hurt in a relationship....his gf cheated on him. He was upset about it and got a tattoo in Chinese that meant trust. He said it was to remind him that trust is not something that he takes lightly. Sometimes I feel like it isn't me that he cant trust, but it is about him not being able to control things.

I also feel that he thinks that if he does show his emotions it will make him seem weak. Growing up in his parents (British) home he was taught that feelings and emotions were not to be expressed. He was taught keep that "British stiff upper lip"......you know that "keep calm and carry on" thing That does not work for me, and I honestly don't really know how much longer I can continue to be on the receiving end of him not being willing to show me how he feels.

I am definitely going to take your advice and "give him as much space as he can choke on"

Coly......I agree with you when you say that he is using this landmark therapy as some sort of crutch. He goes to these "meetings" every week and is able to share things in his life with people he has only known for a few months, but he won't share things with me. He shares at those meetings, but I am pretty sure that he doesn't really understand what it really means to share. It also has become a bit of a social outing for him too. The meetings are from 7pm to 10pm once a week. After every meeting a group of them go out to eat afterwards. He told me sometimes he is out until well after midnight. I can not imagine that they are sitting around talking about their feelings for all that time???

Another issue for me with Landmark, is that several of the people in the group are female, and when he gets to a place where he is confused about how to handle a situation with me, or wonders why he is acting a certain way, he reaches out to them instead of me. According to H, the meetings are not really interactive, just mostly listening. Now while that is better then nothing, I feel like he needs to have someone asking him questions about why he is behaving the way he is, or why he thinks it is okay to continue with this behavior. He should be going to see an IC, but he says he cant afford it.

And him running scared back into the hole......that is so childish in my mind, and I honestly don't know if that is something l am willing to put up with anymore. For me it shows he isn't willing to do the hard work and is more concerned about making himself feel better, or "ignore and it will go away" mentality.......that does not work for me.

SBJ.......Thank you for being in my corner. I hope you are doing as well as expected given what you have gone through recently.

I really enjoyed my time in Colorado. Went on a few hikes and the weather was perfect. Definitely gave me plenty of time to think. I managed to arrive home safely to 96 degree weather shocked Sure am missing that nice cool mountain air.

Still nothing from H smirk

I am heading out in the morning to go and look at some potential places to move into.....wish me luck wink

One day at a time.............

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Hey skm, I'm glad you posted another thread!

Your H does seem confused but I wonder if some of the conversations you are having should be kept for a time further down the line? I know I'm no expert and I'm certainly not at your stage, if ever, but reading posts on piecing the general advice is to enjoy getting go know each other again without bringing up the past or each other's faults. IDK maybe I'm wrong but is that something you could try?

I know it's a real cheek of him to say he needs to leaen to trust YOU again but again maybe just let that slide and in your mind keep thinking that if is him who needs to show you that you can trust HIM!

I know all about that British stiff upper lip but I think us Brits are getting better at it, I promise! Especially the younger generation, they have a habit of over sharing!

I look forward to reading your posts skm because there is so much hope that I am clinging to for my own sitch!


Me - 47
H - 45
D-16
M - 6 years
Separated - May 16

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Hey Coly......

To be honest, I have no idea where I am in this process, and it probably really doesn't matter. I do not feel that we are piecing because I don't think that H crawling back into his hole and not speaking to me for 8 days, is part of THAT process.

I agree that we should be getting to know each other again.....and we really were doing well with that. But, as we all know life sometimes has other plans. For us not to have any disagreements is unrealistic. So if H can not handle those sort of things, I guess it is better for me to know that now. I know I can be hard to deal with, and of course I want things to go my way wink......but I also want us to be honest with how we are feeling, and I want to be able to tell H and him not run back inside his shell like a turtle.

Coly, I waited for so long for us to have any kind of communication, and to be honest I never thought that we would ever speak again, let alone have H tell me that he wanted to work on things. It is hard not to have expectations when he says things like that frown

But I am not okay with him running back into that f'ing hole and making the choice to not speak to me......so childish!!! He can continue to sit in his house, or do whatever he is doing, because I know one thing, I deserve to be treated so much better then that. I deserve respect and by him acting this way I find it very DISrespectful.

I so want you to get to a place where you and your H will start to have conversations. Ours started out few and far between. Only when I decided to sell the house is when things changed between the two of use. Honestly once H and I did start speaking again it was difficult for me. Honestly he was getting on my nerves because I had gotten so used to him NOT being around and then all of a sudden there he was. Took some getting used to that's for sure wink

It is so hard to have patience......trust me I get that. Please be patient with him, and mostly yourself. I finally am learning that focusing on ourselves makes us remember how great we are......and like everyone says only a fool would not want to be around us.

In regards to "The Brits"...... I'll take your word when you say you are trying smile As an American, and a Southern person, I definitely find it hard at times to have conversations with H. My MIL was one of the hardest people to communicate with (when he did) which was rare.

I hope you have a wonderful day Coly smile

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It has definitely been a while since I have posted on here (I believe since Sept of 2017). I have been keeping up with everyone sitch every now and then, but not as much as before. I needed to step away for awhile as things between H and I were changing.

To catch everyone up....I made it home safe from my trip to Colorado back in September and did not hear from H for a while after. I reached out because I needed to have to dogs stay with him for a bit because where I was living at the time really was not happy about them being with me as much as they were.

We spoke for awhile and he was very nice...which caught me off guard...and he even apologized for not staying in touch during my trip. He acknowledged he was not making the effort he should have and said he would do better. WELL.....he did do better and was really following through on things he said he would. Would call more often, and was making more of an effort to spend time with me. We had been spending quite a bit of time together and he started telling me that he missed me and that he wanted us to work on things. I was pretty hesitant because I had heard this before. BUT, I thought if I don't give things a try would I regret it?

I had been spending the night at his house randomly and I noticed that he was putting together some furniture. I asked him what that was for and he brushed it. Well come to find out his parents were coming to visit in November and he didn't want to tell me. I was honestly upset because here he was again hiding things from me.

His parent came for their visit, and not surprisingly, I didn't hear from him much. We did meet once for breakfast and spoke here and there, but definitely not as much as before their visit.

Around Thanksgiving he told me he wanted us to be together and he asked me to move in with him. Again I was surprised, but I thought maybe it would be good for us to be in the same house so that we could continue to move forward.

I moved in the week after Thanksgiving and things were okay. I was working quite a bit, so the time we spent together was good. We were aware of each others feelings and I was aware of how I spoke to him (something that was always difficult for me to do before).

I left to see my family for the Christmas holidays, but did come home a day early to spend Christmas day with him before I had to go to work at the hospital.

We have had some not so nice moments here and there.....him making selfish decisions, but we managed to talk through those. Overall, things had been moving slow. We have not really had much intimacy recently and I have noticed him pulling away a bit.

Yesterday I mentioned that something wasn't right for the past few weeks and he agreed. He told me that he is having a difficult time with the fact that I don't want to have any kind of relationship with his family moving forward. I told him how I felt quite a while ago and he said he understood, but I guess now that we are trying to see if this will work, he is having issues with it.

Me not wanting to be around his family comes from the fact that during the time we were separated, his mother and father spoke poorly about me to him on several occasions (he told me this). His father even went so far to tell my H that if we got divorced that he "should take me for everything I have." I am the bread winner in the family and all the money we have in savings, 401K etc is money I have contributed. His mother asked him to lie to other family members about what happened between us, and even said to tell them that I was the reason we split up. When we were together before BD they never showed me affection, or really made me feel like I was part of their family. His mom has been pretty standoffish for the majority of our marriage. I have always thought that she felt like I was not good enough for her son.

H still has a parent-child relationship (in the sense that he still acts like a 5 year old around them) to this day and this man is 45 years old smirk

I told him that my boundaries are very strong on this and I honestly do not want to have a relationship with them. I told him he seems to be having a very hard time with this and I thought it would be best if I moved out and we no longer tried to work on us anymore. He said he didn't want that and he wanted us to be together.

He wants his parent to be able to come and stay in our house and to act like things between us were never an issue, and that they never said those horrible things about me. Never once did I ever hear from them during those 2 years we were separated.

So now I am stuck. I honestly do not know what to do.

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skm,

So happy to hear from you and not surprised that you two got back together.

Very easy to understand your feelings and where they come from, but and here's a big but, I think you both are expecting too much, too soon.

I think it is too soon for you to tell him that you will never have a relationship with them again. I think it is too soon for him to tell you that is a deal-breaker.

I would suggest that you ask him for time. Time to work on the two of you and strengthen that bond and bring that back together before you begin adding in all of the wildcards that make that situation more difficult.

I would suggest that you approach him with a compromising spirit. Tell him that you want the focus to be on the two of you. That you don't want him to lose time with his family and that you guys can plan around that until you have had more time and more distance from the pain and can see what kinds of effort they are also making to repair the relationships.

This is the kind of thing that can look very controlling, very quickly if you are not careful. Yes they were horrible to you, but they supported him in a difficult time as you would hope any family would do (even if the way they went about it was not good and even if you were on the wrong side of it).

Something else to consider, perhaps sooner than later, is a post-nuptial agreement to help you allay some of your financial concerns in view of the fact that you have been the breadwinner, that the family betrayals are tied to the financial distrust, and, let's face it, your H has not been good about taking care of business.

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Ownit....thanks for the reply

I agree with you about time. I mentioned to him that I thought we should be working on OUR relationship first before we even think about bringing anyone else into it. I have never asked him not to have a relationship with his family. I also have never said they couldn't come visit, but what I am standing firm on is that they will not be allowed in my home.

I know it sounds pretty harsh (and controlling), but it is honestly how I feel. We did not have a good relationship to begin with so I just don't know if it would be possible to ever recover from what they have said and done to me. Plus I just honestly have no desire to be cordial to them. I know that if I never saw them again or never had any kind of interaction with them ever again my life would be just fine.

After having to go through all of this that I have been through the past 2 years, I have made a decision that I do not want people in my life who don't have my best interest, and they have proven to me that they don't.

Never even considered a post nuptial agreement.....definitely something to think about. He did say the other night that he wouldn't take any of the money....but I have a feeling if it ever came to that he probably would because his father would push him to.

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skm, I was thinking about you the other day. I'm glad you have come back to keep us up to date.

I agree with OwnIt on the too much too soon thing, but I also understand the odd relationship with your in-laws. My ex was the same with my mother and step-dad. It's not that they did not love her, but that they didn't have anything in common. My parents are alcoholics and my w doesn't drink. She saw the relationship with my brothers wives and I think she was jealous. They would all get together and have a drinking fest, but we had small children and my w didn't find that to be fun.

Now that my parents are on the wagon, their whole demeanor has changed and I think that the would get along great, but that ship has sailed for now. We will see what the future holds.

I won't say that it is easy to get over hurtful comments towards you, but I will say that a parent will crush whoever is against their child. They believed him when he told them that you were the issue. They took his side throughout the entire separation and probably helped fund his lifestyle too.

Your skin has thickened over the last two years, so maybe if you develop a WTF attitude towards them and kill them with kindness things would change. I'm no Dr. Phil, so you can take it or leave it, but that technique worked with my sister-in-law and her husbands parents. (SIL on my wife's side).

Take care of yourself and your dogs. Stay strong!


Me 49 W46
T25 M22
S22 D18 S13
W had EA Apr-Jul 2016
Dropped Bomb 7/9/16
ILYBINILWYA
HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17
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Hey SBJ.....

I do agree that my skin has thickened over the past 2 years. I also realized that I really only want to be around people who truly want to spend time with me for who I am and not what I can do for them.

I understand that a parent will do whatever is necessary for their child regardless of whether they were at fault or not. But, as a woman, I would have thought that his mother would have at least reached out to me in some manner to say that she had some form of sympathy/empathy/compassion for what I was going through......but nothing.

There is no question that they funded his lifestyle and also contributed to his way of thinking for quite some time, this was true even before the BD or separation. To this day they still tell him what to do in certain circumstances.....I find that so weird.

The truth is I already have a WTF attitude toward them wink

One thing I am having a hard time with is his decision to hold affection from me because of the way he felt......seems very immature and childish. I do not have the time for that kind of relationship with him. I find myself not having any loving feelings towards him, and not wanting to move forward with the relationship. This has definitely changed my feelings towards wanting to put in the work.

He has texted twice today and I have no desire to reply to him.

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Don't rush the process. I think you moved back in w/him too soon. He's still baking and he's still got some issues to resolve. You are going to find that you will become frustrated, disappointed and possible angry w/him because he's not grown up yet. You have expectations of how things should be and yes, of how he should be behaving...drop those expectations...treat him like a roommate and go on about your business. Again, I think he's still in the oven baking.

As for his decision to withhold affection because of the way he felt...sounds like passive aggressive behavior. If he does this, do not let him see that it bothers you. When he realizes that you aren't buying into that PA behavior, he may stop it. It's his way of controlling you, your thoughts and behavior. Don't give this man control over you.

My advice...if you find that things aren't progressing well and you are having more doubts, you may want to consider getting a place of your own for a while. Living w/someone in crisis who hasn't resolved his/her issues is difficult. You find yourself walking on eggshells and questioning your every move. If you haven't done so, read up on PA behavior.

I wouldn't reply to his texts unless they are urgent or a need to know. Give him something to think about. Allow him to wonder what you are doing and where you are.


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Hey SKM, thanks for coming back to update.

I was excited to hear that your sitch is getting better although I agree that maybe you moved back too soon? Too many expectations and stress on each other to act and behave a certain way whilst he is still all over the place. However I can see that your living situation wasn't ideal so it was probably more out of necessity.

Gosh the issue with the in-laws is tricky although I think you should take advantage of the fact that they do not live in the same country. I know if me and H ever got to the stage you are at it would take me a very long time to warm back up to his family. They literally dropped me from day one of H moving out although I think they would have done this to anyone as they are a socially backward family!

I look forward to your updates (((SKM))).


Me - 47
H - 45
D-16
M - 6 years
Separated - May 16

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Coly and Job.......

Yes I agree that maybe I did move in with him too soon. My living situation was not idea, and I was not sure where I wanted to move, so when H asked me to move in with him I thought it was a good idea. Now looking back, I can see where it was too early.

Job...I am becoming frustrated, disappointed and angry with H. I find that my fuse is quite a bit shorter then it has been. Things he used to say or do did not really have much impact on me, but since learning a few more things about H, I do find myself getting to that place again.

I don't really have any loving feelings towards him right now. There is zero affection between us. We basically are room mates.

Coly...for me it is a difficult position to be in with his parents. I asked him if he thought I deserved an apology from them for the way they treated me and things they said, and I got silence. So for me the answer is clear, they will unlikely ever apologize to me. He said they were simply reacting to what he was telling them about me. And, that he has since told them that everything he told them about me was a lie, and that he was the problem in the marriage.

Probably the best thing about the parent situation is that they live in a different country.

I've been spending some time away from him recently and he has been asking "what are you going" and "who are you going with" and "what did you talk about" ........... I am keeping all of that to myself. He acts like it doesn't bother him that he doesn't know, but does he really need to?

My friend said she feels me becoming indifferent about H and our situation. I know that once you get to that place it usually is difficult to come back from.

I am working the next 2 days, and those days are usually pretty long and there is not much interaction between H and I, so maybe this is a good time smile

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I sensed that you were getting frustrated, disappointed and angry w/him. This is one of things that I and others have cautioned posters about...when living w/a person in crisis, the expectation level has to be at zero at all times. They aren't the same person that you knew and loved. You are dealing w/the exact opposite/mirror image of that man. Since you state that you are living as room mates, then expect him to act like one and treat him just as someone sharing the place w/you.

As for his parents, don't hold your breath on getting an apology. Blood is thicker than water and they may never take the leap and say "we are sorry for what we've said and did". Consider the source and if they are visiting, go about your business and hold your head up high, back straight for you are not the one that went off the deep end. If, after seeing you two together (again), they soften up and be friendly, but I would venture to say that all parties will be uneasy until things settle down. I know you are hurt by what they've said and done, but they were listening to the things that their son told them. Some parents will make peace and others won't. Time will tell...but you can't force them to apologize. They are the ones that have to live w/the guilt of what they've done by judging you and the situation. I wouldn't discuss this any more w/your h. I would leave it alone for now.

Since you are living as room mates, I wouldn't share too much of what you are doing and w/whom. I would go about my business and let him wonder what you are doing.

Try to keep the focus on you. Find things that will help w/focusing. As for your h, leave him to himself.


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Hello all......I've been keeping up with everyone's posts as much as I can, so I thought I would post a little update on my sitch.

Things with H and I are better in some ways, but not in others. We are still living as room mates. We are having good conversations, and H is actually sharing his thoughts and some emotions more often. We are sleeping in the same bed, but there is zero intimacy between the two of us. When H leaves he will come find me and give me a kiss good bye. He does make an effort to call during the day and stay in touch with how his day has been.

He continues to do that Landmark education and has found it to be very helpful. He recently went to one of their forums about communication, and when he returned after the 3 days, he said he now understands how little he communicates with me, and is going to try and work on that and asked me to be patient with him.

We recently had a conversation where he told me some things that I had never heard before. He said that during our marriage he felt like he wasn't good enough. I didn't really push him on that, but I did ask him if I was the one who made him feel that way and he said no.

He also mentioned that when he told me that he loved me a few weeks ago he was being vulnerable with me, and was showing emotions that were difficult for him to do. He said that he was very sad afterward because I didn't react/respond the way he expected me to. He said he shut down a few days after that and is now having a hard time showing emotions for fear of how I will react. I told him that is not fair to me, and that he cant have expectations of me like that.

He says he knows that he is still trying to control what he wants me to know. By that I mean, he only shares certain things in regards to his finances, bills, emails and texts, but wants me to share all that info with him. He says he has nothing to hide, but for me not sharing all aspects of his life still feels very secretive. He has a piece of paper with all his user name and passwords to accounts and he said that he keeps that with him at all times because he doesn't want me to find it and know his login information, because then I would be able to log in and see his emails, bills or bank account info.

He said he still is having issues with trusting me, but then turns around and says "I do trust you".....???? He said it is very easy for him to go back to where he was before BD when it comes to trust, but says he doesn't want to. I am
confused on just what the issues he is having as far as trust is concerned....I honestly think it is all about control for him.

I am doing more things with friends and going places and having fun. He will ask me where I am going, but I don't give a lot of details. He said he feels like I am "playing games" when I do that smirk

I know that he is not the same person he was before BD....neither of us is. I do see where he has made positive changes and really is trying to be more honest and open, and communicate more. I am working on being more patient with him, but honestly it is difficult for me at times.

I feel like I am stuck smirk frown

1. do I stay with a man who is not willing to let go of his control issues
2. still having trouble trusting me
3. doesn't want to be intimate with his me

I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts and opinions smile

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My question to you is what do you want to do? Are you willing to hang in there for another 3, 6 or even 12 months to see if he turns around?

From your posting, it sounds like he's making some positive steps in the right direction. The comment he made about trust issues w/you...they are normal for someone who is dealing w/crisis issues.

Dealing w/someone in crisis takes a lot of patience, compassion and understanding. They can't just snap out of their funk because they have to work thru it. The crisis didn't just happen, it took years in the making and it will take a few years to work thru. If he is in crisis, it will take him quite a while to become more intimate w/you. Nothing against you at all, but his feelings toward you are "numb" at the moment. It's all part of the depression and if you read up on depression, they can become "numb" to many things, including having sex w/their partner.

Your h sounds like he's learned some valuable lessons from the Landmark education he's be participating in. Do you want to toss in the towel now that he's starting to warm up a bit?

You are the only one that can decide whether you stay or go.


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Thanks for the reply Job....... as always you give me things to think about.

I am not sure if I can hang in for another 3 or 6 months. I need some kind of affection from him. I’m not saying that I need to be intimate with him, although that would be nice. What I’m saying is I need more then the kiss on the forehead or the involuntary kiss on the lips before he leaves the house. It almost feels like there is no thought behind it, so is there any meaning behind it. Or is it something he does out of habit?

I totally agree he is depressed, although he would never admit to that.

He has made progress and that is not something I thought I would ever hear myself say.

I do feel I am missing something in my life by staying in this environment with him. I often wonder if I moved out would he really even care? I guess there is only one way to find that out, right?

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skm, miss seeing your posts. Hope all is as well as it could be right now. Know that you are in all of our thoughts.


Me 49 W46
T25 M22
S22 D18 S13
W had EA Apr-Jul 2016
Dropped Bomb 7/9/16
ILYBINILWYA
HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17
Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
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It's good to hear from you.

I have several questions, do you think since he is not sharing everything with you that he might still be in communication with some women? Also, I remember that he had financial issues while you were not living together anymore, since you have moved back in, what is your contribution to the daily expenses? Do you think that you living with him, makes his financial life more bearable?

I know that dealing with someone in crisis requires a lot of patience (which you have shown having since a few months) but it seems he is testing you a little bit too much in a very manipulative way, from what you wrote each time he tries to position himself as the victim, and blaming you for, it looks like some kind of gas lightning. He is trying to assess how much power he still has on you he is not really pleased with your new you.

Do you think he is really trying to piece, which is a very long journey or it's a gimmick of it (false reconciliation for whatever reasons he might have in mind)?

I am trying to open your mind on some questions you might have thought and brushed away or might not have thought at all. Remember, I like to brainstorm a lot... sometimes that the only way to figure out what is and what you really want.

Right now, do you feel you might be better living on your own and keeping contact with him until he "feels better" or keeping the arrangement that you have with him. Only you can answer that question.


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Hello Skyhigh.......good to hear from you my friend smile

I appreciate you asking me all the questions.

As far as him communicating with other women........I do know that he has several women friends that he does share information with. I get the "we are just friends" comment about those relationships. I have asked him not to share things about our relationship, but as we all know I do not have any control over any of that.

In regard to finances......he has made a small dent in his credit card bills. He is also not spending money like he used to do. When I moved in I asked him about me contributing to the rent and bills and he refused my offer. He said "have you ever thought that maybe I would like to take care of you." I was not surprised by that comment because is very prideful, and I know before BD I took care of the majority of the financial responsibilities and that was difficult for him.

I do contribute by paying for the groceries, any bills concerning the dogs, and if we do go out to dinner or a movie I typically pay for that.

As far as him being manipulative, and playing the victim role.....I totally agree. I feel like he still has some major control issues. He wants to change, and he knows he needs to, but is still concerned about people judging him. There is not much I can say or do to change how he feels abut how people are judging him. That is an insecurity that he has to work through.

He knows it would make me sad if things did not work out in our M, but he also knows that I am not willing to sacrifice my happiness in order to make him happy all the time, and I know that he wants me to be happy too. I am a different person.......2 years will do that for you.

Not sure if he initially understood what it would really take for us to make things work, but he says he is not going anywhere. He told me yesterday that when he asked me to move in with him that he was willing to do what it takes, and did not put a time line on it. I don't know if this is piecing or not, but I know this is HARD!!!

Sometimes I do feel like if I was living on my own then he would be making more of an effort because then I would not be so easily accessible to him. But I will say that I am concerned that if he ends up being alone that he will fall back into the rabbit hole. But then again.....that is not for me to control.

He asked me yesterday what I thought about wearing our wedding ring again? I have not worn it in so long that I don't really know how I feel about that. I also don't want to wear it just to show someone that I am married, when in reality the marriage is not very strong.

So, I continue on......one day at a time.

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It seems that he is the one making the rules about your "piecing" situation...

Piecing is when 2 people are trying to reconnect at their own pace while doing their best to respect each other feelings and boundaries. It's tough, it's slow but it improves gradually with time. Piecing also is when the one who wronged someone is trying his best to follow the boundaries (reasonable) that he wronged one demanded so trust and feeling can be rebuild. It seems he pushed away your demands... he wants it is own way.

Did you ever think about telling him that you are not satisfied with the way he is ignoring blatantly your boundaries and it makes you feel very unsafe and it triggers strong reactions in you. Also, you understand that he needs time to work on his issues but your feelings should be taken into consideration too since you were the one hurt. Piecing is having those conversations where there is an active talking/listening from both side not only one, when the Wayward is not trying not keep justifying his past behavior on the cheated one and when the cheated one is not bringing the affair non stop.

Nobody makes changes voluntarily because usually it's painful and somehow it means losing something. I am not talking about an ultimatum but making him becoming aware that you are not going to accept to be disrespected that way anymore because it's having a negative effect on your own personal mental health. You might tell him that you understand that he needs to work on himself but you need help too within that process from him and you are reaching a point where you feel that your needs/feelings are being put aside/ignored because he is solely focused on himself (selfish) so you might need to ....(your choice).

Now are you ready to have that conversation? Are you ready to walk you if he decides that his way only and/or he tells you "that's my way or we need to part"? Do you want an equal relationship or at least a balanced one to start or being told "that the way it is"? Did you like all the changes you made on yourself during those 2 years? Do you have a deadline in your mind? Does that new relationship which you are working on make you feel respected and safe? Do you feel he might cross the line again since he is still very borderline with his female friendship?

I am talking to you as a dear friend, the ultimate goal of those questions is to stir your mind so you can come to a decision or at least a step by step plan. It's so tough to think when you are IN the situation. I am not trying to tell you what you should do, because that's your life I am just bringing my outside brainstorming mind to help you with your decision whatever it will be. Also nothing is set in stone in life, you might take a decision one day and have to change it or make some modification on it the next.

You deserve to be happy so try to find where your happiness and peace of mind might be at their best.
((((BIG HUGS)))






Last edited by job; 03/01/18 01:32 PM. Reason: added space between paragraphs

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Thanks for replying Skyhigh, you definitely gave me a lot to think about.

So.....I'm having a hard time. I found text messages that H has on his phone from a different woman he was pursuing after we separated. I always had my suspicions about her and I had asked about her a while ago because not long after she found out I had kicked him out of the house she asked him out, and of course he went. He of course denied a relationship. He told me "we were just friends" and "nothing ever happened with her" and all that kind of BS stuff.

I found messages from him to her that said "I really like you" and "you are cute" and of course the f'ing BS texts about me and how difficult I was being at that time.....which were lies!!! I read one text she wrote that said "I'm sorry you are having to go through all this and none of it is your fault"...... so I can only assume she didn't know about him cheating.

He definitely was the one who became the pursuer though because he would ask her to meet for lunch, or where should we go to dinner and things of that nature. I can only imagine what was said or happened when they were actually together. The other thing is that she was a client of his so I can just imagine what happened when she came around for that.

I saw in a different text where she later told him "I know you are separated, but I can't pursue this with you anymore cause you are still married." But, I did see where they continued with things even after he and I started to reconnect.

I'm so PISSED that he lied about the relationship he had with her. And why the HECK does he still have these text messages on his phone from her?!?!?

I've been sleeping in the other room, and I haven't spoken to him for two days. And of course the other big thing is that we still have zero intimacy in our relationship. No hand holding, no public displays of affection, no kissing. We have not had sex since November.

I know he has been working on himself for quite some time, but what I am coming to see is that he really isn't interested in working on us. He only considers his wants/needs/feelings when making decision or choices. I asked him a while ago if he would go to MC and he said he would but that he couldn't afford it, so I offered to pay for it. The only stipulation I made was that he was the one who had to find the counselor and make the appointment. He has not followed through on that.

Before I found out about the texts, he told me that he wore his wedding ring not too long ago. It was on a day I was at work so I didn't know about it, and he had taken it off by the time I got home that night. He said he wants to start wearing it again because he feels like we are in a better place and he feels married again. I asked him what did being married feel like to him and he couldn't answer me. I told him I was not ready to wear mine cause I don't feel married. I feel like we are room mates. I also mentioned that I felt like his ring was tainted because he wore it when he was with his first OW. His response was, "well then I guess we need to buy me a new ring".....IS HE SERIOUS???? crazy smirk

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SKM,

I’m no vet so am not going to try to offer advice but just wanted to note about the rings. My w is sometimes wearing her ring now and I have asked myself if i should start wearing mine and right now my answer is no. We aren’t piecing or working on our relationship or even sleeping in the same bed.

Peace.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
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I would like input from others on what I am going to tell you because I feel I am going to be a little bit harsh. I want to apologize in advance but I am quite worried by what you described.

First: The total lack of affection or gestures of affection is really something alarming, it's raising a BIG red flag on his motivations why he is with you right now. You need to dig on that question. Having difficulties being with intimacy while piecing is somehow common for some but a total lack of affection is the sign of something really serious.

Second: Also, his ambivalence/reticence/refusal to let go his very borderline flirty behavior/relationship with women is really troubling, it sends the message (at least from my perspective) that he is not ready at all to change that very bad habit and he doesn't care about YOU. Do you think he might be "craving" that kind of attention from them to feed some "narcissist" needs. Please read about what are the personality traits of a narcissist and how they manipulate back and forth people to stay in control/power, and see if it applies to him or not. I don't want to imply that he has one but it looks like one.

Third: His passive aggressive behavior in regard of your offer to pay for MC suggests he doesn't want at all to get one, because he doesn't want to have to reflect on his actions in front of someone who will be listening to your side of the story too. So the best for him is to avoid it at all cost, because somehow he knows he might end to look like a villain, which he is: a guy who cheated on his wife and who is still somehow blaming her for it, while not really putting any effort to change his own behavior. That's not good for his image and it doesn't want YOU to gain the upper hand which goes against his own interest, he wants you to keep waiting while refraining yourself to ask any questions or come up with demands, now the question is WHY?

The program he has been following about "working on himself", fits his needs because it's a one way self analysis without the input of someone.

Fourth: his rhetoric about wearing his wedding ring (+ you buying a new one for him) while not having any gesture of affection or being considerate of your triggers smells highly suspicious/plain manipulation. I applaud the answer you gave him.

In my opinion, right now he is not piecing with you, he is up to something.

Now my last question is a tough one: men usually don't leave until they have a plan B, they keep going with what is convenient for the moment until that plan B is set up and ready to go. Do you think he might be stringing you along because of whatever reason?

I am very sorry for all the 4"X4" I wrote. Knowledge is power.
Also, read again the article about pursuer and pursuit...


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Hey all.......sorry for the delayed response. I worked five 12 hour shifts in a row, and when I work like that I don't have time for anything but sleep and work. I am in the middle of 4 days off and decided to pack up the car and take the dogs for a short trip to the beach.

Skyhigh......as always, thank you for replying and making me think about things. No need for the apology for the 2X4s or 4x4s......I honestly didn't feel that what you were saying was harsh.

Gordie.....thanks for your thoughts on the wedding ring issue.

Things between H and I have gotten worse. It has been 10 days and we have not spoken to each other.......we are living in the same house. When I found those text messages I was pretty upset and moved into the spare room and have been there since. He has not made any attempt to speak to me about those texts, or why he felt it necessary to keep them on his phone. Or, for that matter, apologize to me for lying about the relationship he had with this person.

On a few of the mornings I was getting ready for work and was also trying to make myself breakfast....not a big breakfast person but some of the mornings I was starving because I didn't get to eat dinner the night before. Anywho......when breakfast was ready H would bring it to me. Now, why would he do that if he wasn't speaking to me? A few other times I would come home from work to find my bed had been made by H. Again, why would he do this, but not speak to me? One night I was at work pretty late and he texted to ask me if I was okay. Again, we were not speaking to each other so why is he asking? He has since stopped bringing my breakfast, stopped making the bed and I was at work late again one night and he didn't check on me. WEIRD?????

Yes, the lack of affection is something that makes me ask myself "why did he ask me to move back in with him if he wasn't ready to give of himself in that way?" When I first moved in with him we were intimate, we were both trying hard to make sure that we took things slowly, but then we had a pretty big disagreement about his parents and my lack of wanting a relationship with them and that is when he started withholding affection toward me.......things have not been the same since. Maybe he thinks I can be his plan B......WRONG!!!!!

His "friendships" with women is something that bothers me. He is aware how I feel about that, but he doesn't see anything wrong with it. Why he feels like he needs to continue these type of relationships when he knows how I feel about them is something that screams ...... "I don't care about you and how you feel." He is someone who needs A LOT of praise and I guess he isn't going to get that from a male, so he reaches out towards women. I'm sure that screams something about his childhood, or "mommy" issues. He will have to figure that out for himself.

I do think his lack of following through with finding a counselor has something to do with the fact that he will have someone asking him tough questions. He might feel challenged and not want to answer those type of questions. Right now the Landmark program is a one way self analysis. He does not verbally participate at his Landmark meetings......he only listens (this is what he has told me).

So, I continue on. I will be heading home tomorrow. I have not heard anything from H while we (myself and the dogs) have been gone. I did not expect to hear from him, so it isn't surprising that I haven't.

I plan on stopping and seeing a good friend on the way home who I haven't seen in a while, so that will be nice.

One day at a time........

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Hey SKM, sorry things still sound to be a bit tough between you and H.

I agree I do not think you are piecing but I think he does especially as he mentions about the wedding rings. Remember he has not had as much advice as you have on what piecing should look like. How can you get him to be on the same page? I'm not sure how I would do it if it as me!

I think you both sound like such sensitive souls. As soon as you feel you have been hurt you both retreat into your shell and wait it out until someone makes a move. You ask why he was bringing your breakfast, making your bed and texting you even if he wasn't talking to you but do you think that was his way of trying to make amends?

However I agree the issue with the female friend is a problem that needs addressing but it's not going to be whilst you both circle around each other. I'm not sure seeing a therapist at this stage is going to help if you are not officially piecing although I think that maybe you both need to have some fun with each other and try and relax a bit!

(((SKM)))


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Hey Coly.....thanks for the response smile Hope the 10K training is going well.

You are absolutely right....we are NOT piecing. These boards have taught me so much about how to handle and how NOT to handle situations.....thank goodness. Piecing will require both of us to be in the mind set that we are ready to work on things together. I am not sure if I am ready to do that yet.

When I got home from the beach, H was not home....honestly that was just fine with me. I was unpacking the dogs and the car when I saw his truck coming down the street. I guess he didn't see me in the garage, but I saw him turn around in the street and started going in the opposite direction away from the house.......weird. I waited about 45 minutes and he didn't come back. So, I called him and said "what are you doing, and why did you turn around"............I think he was shocked when I asked him that. His response was "I was not expecting you to be home and I was not ready to see you or speak to you." I offered to pack the dogs back up and my stuff and leave the house so he could come home, but he didn't want that. He asked if I would stay there and he would turn around and we could talk.

We spoke for a long time. He apologized for not speaking to me for all of those days, and said he doesn't know why he acts like that. I told him that we both acted childish during that time, and we both were being stubborn. We spoke about many other things and he agreed to be more open with his communicating. Time will tell.......

Things are a little better, we are speaking more and having daily interaction. But, I am still sleeping in the spare bedroom. I have just finished another long stretch of days at work, so now I will have two days off to rest before heading back.

H continues to deal with feelings and emotions, but has a LONG way to go. He has done the Landmark program, and has also been attending other Landmark sponsored "therapies" ... but as Skyhigh mentioned in an earlier post to me, it is a one sided self analysis. Now, it is definitely better then nothing, but I would like to see him do some IC as well.

H went to church on Easter (I of course was working), but when I got home that night he was discussing the sermon. He said he felt like after hearing the sermon that he was ready to "forgive himself" for what he did, and how he behaved before, during and after the A. I was a bit shocked when I heard him say that. I am not sure if it was because I felt like he should not be the one forgiving himself......I should. I also don't want him to think that he can just forget what he did......but when I think about it, I am not sure if he will ever be able to forgot about what he did because he has to look at me and that is a daily reminder.

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SKM,

Your H is a conflict avoider. It asks one to know one. It’s easier for him to bring you breakfast or make your bed than to actually talk to you. I bet his love language is acts of service. He is probably trying to show you he cares about you.

But then you don’t respond positively and he says to himself (warning: mind reading), SKM is so ungrateful and it doesn’t make a damn difference if I am trying to make this work, so I’m just going to give up. Thank God she went away for a few days. I can have some peace and quiet. Oh shoot, there she is in the driveway earlier that I expected! Quick u turn. Not ready to deal with her. What do I even say at this point?

How do you deal with a man like this? Who doesn’t know how to say he is sorry? How to be able to discuss difficult things without getting flustered or running away? First, do not initiate R talks. He is still processing things.

Self forgiveness is a good sign but totally get what you are saying. Why isn’t he apologizing and asking you to forgive him? I don’t know. Hopefully he gets there in time but it’s out of your control.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
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Hey Skm,

I feel your H is really putting forth some effort to understand himself and try to figure out how to reconnect/ show he cares/ make amends. Please Google "bids for affection" and see if it makes sense.

When you ask, "why would he do this if he's not speaking to me/ we are not speaking to each other?" I wonder what type of response you are giving him when he does these things? Are you gracious? Appreciative? I see that you've said he still has friendships and flirty behavior with women. Is it possible that he just really enjoys getting positive attention from women because he needs it to feel wanted, masculine, appreciated as a man? If this could be so, I hope his "bids" for affection from you are met with sincere and welcoming appreciation. I haven't seen anything in DB or anything else that doesn't call for that. And nothing will cause someone to give up more than feeling un-appreciated...it plays into the need to belong and be accepted, and without that a person can feel lonely and worthless.

Guilt, by the way, is really strong with your H. Yes, you can forgive your H all you want for his behavior, but he has to be able to forgive himself first and foremost to feel worthy of being loved by another, especially someone he loves and cares about. Without forgiving himself, anything positive from you will feel false to him, even if he is hopeful. He needs to be able to feel safe and secure, to trust that he can really open up, most likely. When he can finally forgive himself, then he may be a bit more able to talk at appropriate times and in a more real way. I'm sure his being "not ready" when you got home was due to really strong emotion. He probably has to prepare himself to be around you right now. Emotions are such powerful,confusing, but very basic parts of our being. That was such a perfect "flight" instinct in operation. He does not feel safe yet.

As confusing as this is, this is on him. He does need to forgive himself. But you need to feel safe to him, too. That's why we need to be working on ourselves. Are you still bringing up the affair and reminding him that he hurt you? Trust me; he knows. Bringing it up over and over...well, my own XH would say, "stop beating me up!" That's exactly what I was doing. Stop it, if you are. At this point, its done. He knows he hurt you. He's ashamed, even if he hasn't apologized or doesn't "get it". If you get to a point where you really are piecing, only bring it up with an IC (preferably a therapist that you work through issues and histories with, not just someone giving "advice").

We as LBS need to understand our own emotions, especially anger. Obviously your anger is from his behaviour...on the surface. But what is even deeper below that anger? What is the source...how does it make you really feel? This is something to work through with an IC. This is the you working on you part. This is how you can be ready to "be the lighthouse" in that story. Otherwise, you're just hiding the rocks that he will wash up against. Right now, that might be his suspicion, and his fear. Even though his actions are showing that he hopes sometime to see you guiding him home to safety.


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Gordie........you hit the nail on the head!!! H is totally a conflict avoider, and his love language is "acts of service." I can remember a conversation we had years before BD about his wanting to do things for me and my response was "I don't NEED you do do that for me" and he would say "I know you don't NEED me to do it for you but I WANT to do it for you." That is a difficult thing for me to do......allow him to help me. I am slowly seeing that this is how he shows how he cares for me.

I did not get married until I was 38 years old (my first marriage). I was educated, had a good job, made good money and was financially secure when I met my H. NOW.....all of a sudden, after all these years of doing everything for myself, I am supposed to LET someone do things for me........this was/is a very foreign concept for me.

H would ask me if I needed help, or could he bring me dinner at work, or help me carry groceries in or things of that nature and my first response was "nope, I'm good. " So I know that after a while he stopped asking or doing. So, when he found someone (OW) who was "so helpless" he latched onto her quick.

I have stopped initiating any kind of R talks with him. I just don't have it in me to do it anymore. Now, is this something that will pass......not sure.

Ciluzen........thank you so much for everything you said.

I googled "bids for affection" and it totally made sense. I have read several articles by John Gottman, and I like his approach to marital issues. Before BD, H and I were actually seeing an MC. She was a Gottman trained therapist. I really liked her, and thought she was slowly helping us with our issues. Little did we (myself or her) know that H was cheating at that time and was not being honest during our sessions.

I agree that H is making efforts to make himself better. I will honestly say that I am not a fan of the method he has chosen (Landmark) but like I have mentioned before, it is better then him not trying at all.

I totally agree with you about H needing positive attention from women because it makes him feel wanted or masculine. I am fiercely independent, and I am certain that comes across very clear in my interactions with H. And, my job requires me to make life saving decisions, and without hesitation, so many of my decisions at home are made without hesitation or input from H....... and there is no doubt that is intimidating to him. And, not to mention, doesn't make him feel like he is valued.

He has said that he has guilt, but it doesn't have as much of an impact on things like it used to. That was hard for me to hear, On one hand I don't want him to live his life with guilt controlling his life or choices, but I also don't want him to ever forget what he did to me and our M.

I know I still have anger about what he did, and I'm sure there is a part of me that doesn't want to let that go because then it is like he gets a pass for what he did, but....I am working on letting that go daily. I don't raise my voice, or have rage anymore when he says something that upsets me.......I just don't have it in me to be that way anymore.

I used to bring up the A to try and punish him, but I saw that it really didn't help things. Now if we are talking about things sometimes one of us will bring it up, but it is not done in a way to bring up hurtful memories, although it still does for me.

I know he is still a work in progress. There are days that I am so ready to give up on all of this because I don't know if I will ever be able to trust him again. And, sometimes I feel like why does he even deserve to be given a second chance.

So, I keep working on me.........

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SKM,

I hear you, especially that last paragraph. Yes, there are the days I want to give up. And why does he/she deserve a second chance? Here’s what I believe. I believe you are giving him a second chance out of your own free will. He/she cannot do anything to earn/deserve it. It’s a choice you are making. You have the power to do that because you do control you.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
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SKM,
I'm glad you are working on you. We and our situations are very similar. I, too, liked Gottman for communication issues and a surface understanding. Very task oriented. But it doesn't really help with anger or underlying emotion very well, I'm finding.

I only mentioned bids for affection because I noticed those in your post and wanted to know if you realized that he was putting forth an effort, or how much that effort means. I was confused by why my XH would not let go even though he rushed through the separation to D process; and why he still reaches out even now. I also am someone who is proud of my abilities to get stuff done. I even tried to do his stuff when I saw him stressing over it. I never realized how emasculating it can be to take on everything for someone and tell them it was "no problem" when they were feeling overwhelmed. I thought I was being loving and caring, but he was feeling less and less worth. He decided I didn't need him, so he told me he didn't need me. Communication issues.

Beyond that, though, is those emotions that underly our actions. Why does betrayal make us so angry? Why would someone do something they knew was so wrong and would make someone they cared about so angry? Is it because they're just selfish? Or is it a need not being met? What's behind that need? My eye opener with XH was learning EFT (not the "tapping" thing).Most of what lies behind this type of relationship issue is fear of being not worthy, fear of being left, and fear of being unloveable. How are most men taught to be worthy? By doing things for their woman, providing for her, and protecting her.If she can do it all, is he necessary? The other side of that is, why do we feel it necessary to do it all? What were we taught, by whom, that made it so important to take on the world? What do we really want? What about our H's choosing another is bothering us the most? Are we just angry? Is there hurt behind the anger? What is the hurt coming from and what fear does that touch on in us? Anyway, I found the ideas interesting, but definitely one to do in couples therapy...you need that trained third person buffer. The concepts, though, are helpful on your own and work well with DB.

The idea of pursuer and distancer are also broken down further into "burnt-out pursuer" and a former distancer then reacting by becoming a "pursuer-blamer". I saw my XH as a distancer...but realized he pursued me hard before and I just enjoyed it. After awhile, he burnt out and withdrew. Then I started to pursue him, but with confusion and anger...hence the blamer response. That viewpoint alone shifted my way of seeing our relationship to the point where I had to share it with XH in an apology. Back to the first big wound I could remember seeing, but not fully understanding at the time. His reaction, when I apologized and explained was...amazing. A game changer. Relief? Release? He finally felt understood. And that's what we all want from our "other". The feeling of support and not being alone. We seem to just misinterpret actions and efforts when our biases and inability to see past what our experiences in life have formed as truth in our minds (our point of view) get in the way. At least for that instance. So, yes. Very happy with the deeper work of EFT.

Quote:
He has said that he has guilt, but it doesn't have as much of an impact on things like it used to. That was hard for me to hear, On one hand I don't want him to live his life with guilt controlling his life or choices, but I also don't want him to ever forget what he did to me and our M.

I know I still have anger about what he did, and I'm sure there is a part of me that doesn't want to let that go because then it is like he gets a pass for what he did, but....I am working on letting that go daily. I don't raise my voice, or have rage anymore when he says something that upsets me.......I just don't have it in me to be that way anymore.



Be careful of what you think you hear. Remember, you are biased and angry and have had a whole different set of experiences in your life shaping your point of view. Are you sure that his saying his guilt 'doesn't have an impact on things like it used to" means the same to him as you are interpreting it? That's a wide open statement, really.

I highlighted these things because, although I see you acknowledge your anger, you also appear to really want to punish him. First, I bet his guilt is strong enough to be his punishment. He may hide a portion of it because there is shame as well, but his bids are like putting his hand out and his head down in supplication.

Second, if you can't really find an understanding and find a way to get past the anger and need to hurt him back (what punishment is), you both lose. And he'll just look for that "acceptance" and verification of worth through others again. This dynamic has created a lack of trust for both of you. You are angry and don't trust him to hurt you again; he doesn't trust you not to punish him or hurt him in the way he possibly felt hurt before drifting. That trust won't happen unless you can go deep and understand each other's motivations. Deep seated stuff.

The fact that you don't raise your voice or rage at him means you are getting very good at controlling
your anger, which takes a huge effort and is exhausting, but your anger is still there. If it is there, it will come out in some way, shape, or form. If you're familiar with bids, are you familiar with the four horsemen? That's "seepage". Uncover the anger and pick it apart. Its hurt and it most likely comes from am even deeper emotional need.

I'm in your corner, SKM. I get that anger and need to punish. But what do you really want? If you really want him back, how much glass are you really willing to walk through? You'll need that third person to keep it safe, because trust-work gets worse before it gets better. The fact that he's still there and working speaks volumes. And patience...working on your own stuff first can also ease the process. Its "MLC", or by any other name...its a process. And as MWD has stated, a really long road. I personally kinda hope there's more than just ice cream and cake at the end of it.


M-51 H-54
2D-27 and 25
M-26 yrs
Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15
He moved out 10-3-15
D filed 1-27-16
D final 10-27-16

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Hello all.......hope everyone is well. Been a bit since I posted anything.

Ciluzen.........thank you so much for taking the time to respond to me......you have given me MANY things to think about, so that is what I have been doing.

For the past few days I have been thinking about my anger. Like I mentioned before, I do not yell, scream or rage at H like I used to, but to be honest, there really hasn't been anything that has happened where I feel myself getting to a place where that would be my response. And, it is so non productive that I just can't and wont do it any more.

What I am trying to figure out is where is the anger coming from. The obvious is.... I still can not understand why H would make the choices he did leading up to the A, and then after BD become a person I had no idea existed......and not to mention the horrible way he treated me after BD. I know there is also still a lot of hurt behind the anger. I feel like I have made progress with processing my emotions towards H and his actions, but definitely still have a lot of work to do. I know that I am still punishing him and that is only hurting both of us.

I am distancing myself from H, and he has noticed. He is now pursuing me and making more of an effort. I know he will eventually get tired of pursuing me and feel that he is not getting anything in return, but I am just not there right now and feel that if I did it would not be genuine.

I continue to sleep in one of the other rooms, and we are not intimate at all. H does kiss me on my cheek before he leaves for work, but that is it.

He continues to have self reflection and says he sees things differently. He listens differently then he used to and has acknowledged that before he "couldn't be bothered" with listening to me. I told H that I was proud of the progress he has made, and have seen the positive changes in him. I said I would like to continue to move forward with him in our marriage, and know that it is going to take some hard work on both of our part, but H says he doesn't know if he can move forward knowing that I do not want a relationship with his parents.

Before BD we (his parents and myself) did not have a close relationship as they live in the UK and we live in the states. When they would visit, I would make sure that I spent time with them and I felt we enjoyed each others company. When H would skype with them I was not around because I felt like he needed his alone time with them. I did not exchange emails or phone calls with them, basically only had interaction with them when they would visit us (usually 2-3 times a year for about 2-3 weeks each time).

After BD, his parents said some pretty terrible things about me. When they found out I filed for D, his father told him to "take her for everything she has." They lied to family members about what really happened between the two of us.........of course they made me out to be the "bad guy" and that everything was my fault. They also bad mouthed me quite a bit.

After about 6 months post BD, H wanted to try and work things out and do some counseling. His mother did not agree and told him "make sure that SKM knows that counseling is for her benefit only and nothing else." She was not supportive at all. We tried to work things out, but H was not in the right frame of mind at that time so we continued to stay separated.......I am pretty sure his mom was pleased about that.

I understand blood is thicker then water, and parents will stand behind their children no matter what. BUT.......H has since told them we are living together again, trying to work on our marriage, etc. He took responsibility for the breakdown of our marriage, and the A. He also told them that he now knows that he made the wrong choices after BD in regard to how he was living his life, and how he chose to treat me. He also acknowledged that he was financially irresponsible during that time and racked up quite a bit of debt. He also mentioned he was doing the Landmark "therapy" and was working on finding out why he was making the choices he was, and was trying to become a better version of himself.....his father told him that he thought all of that "was a waste of his time."

I do not bring up his parents or sibling in conversation. If he does I listen, but do not ask questions. I honestly have zero desire to hear about them or speak about them. H knows that having a relationship with his parents is not a priority for me right now. I do not want a relationship with his parents because of how they treated me after BD. I was good enough for 10 years, but when I kicked him out after I found out about the A, I became this horrible b*tch to them. I told H that I feel like I deserve an apology from them......one I know I will never get.

I said that if he feels that strongly about us (me and his parents) having a relationship, then I am not the person for him. I told him that at this point in my life it is more important for me to focus on me, him, our marriage and not his parents.

I have started to look for places to move to because I don't think that he is ever going to change his mind about wanting me to have a relationship with them. And, I am not sure I can continue to live in this environment for much longer. I think maybe time apart would be good for us.

I honestly do not know what to do in this situation? So, I continue to work on me wink

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SKM

Are you in C

Is there a way to forgive his parents without expecting anything from them

Some people have nothing to give and are totally unavailable
They were and are clearly wrong but-

but if it is a major block between you and him, maybe you can work on forgiving them, remembering forgiveness is for you and maybe for H and the M
since they are so far away-you will see them little anyway-

Maybe they are unworthy of forgiveness and of a Real R with you
and that may be true-but again forgiveness is for us

Just a thought- but please follow your instincts


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Hey peace.....

We are not in counseling. A couple months ago I suggested it, and told H that if he wanted to go then he would have to find the therapist. He said he wanted to go, but could not afford to pay for it. I told him I would pay for it initially to see if we were benefitting from it. BUT....he has not taken any initiative to find one for us.

As far as his parents are concerned. The reason all of this is an issue with me and H is because H wants them to be able to come and visit....like pre BD....where they would come a few times a year and stay for 2-3 weeks in our home. I have absolutely no desire to have them in my home or to see them ever again. They have shown me who they are and I do not want to be in their company.

The issue is that right now H and I are living in a home that he rented post BD. I have asked him about moving to a different place....one that neither of us had lived in so that we could start new. It would not be just his place anymore, it would be ours. He doesn't want to do that because then he feels like I would not let his parents come and stay when they visit.

My H (and his parents) have this idea that they should be able to come and visit as often as they like, and stay as long as they like in our home, and without regard for our lives or schedule. His parents are retired and are wealthy and travel A LOT.

I know that everyone says that forgiveness is for me, but I honestly don't care about them one way or another. I do not feel like I need to forgive them. They should be asking me for forgiveness. After a lot of work, the person that I choose to forgive was my H, and that is what is important to me. Even if I decided to forgive them I honestly don't think that my current feelings about them would change. I honestly have no desire to ever see them ever again.

I am not asking him not to have a relationship with his family. I have encouraged it because before we got married they were not very close.

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If he wants his parents to come visit, then maybe it's time that they stayed at a hotel nearby. After all, you both have work schedules and other obligations that may not allow for you to be at home when they are there. I would hope that they would be understanding of this fact and be willing to stay nearby.

It's okay for your h to go visit them at the hotel and maybe even have them over for dinner one evening, but to come stay in the home while you both work...I wouldn't like that either.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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I agree with you Job wink

My H feels that it would be disrespectful to his parents to ask them to stay in a hotel when he has room at his house for them. He says that since they are traveling so far to come see him the least he can do is let them stay at his home.

I guess he forgot about the time both sets of parents came to visit and MY parents stayed in a hotel, while his parents stayed in our house???? smirk

I work 12 hour shifts 4 days a week so they would have ample time to see each other and do what ever they want to do while I am at work......but that is not what he wants. He wants us all to act like we are one big happy family and sit around and enjoy each others company.....not going to happen crazy

And not to mention...it is difficult when they are around because H reverts back to being a 5 year old boy and not the 45 year old man he is crazy

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Hi SKM,

I totally get what you are saying and I understand your side

Forgiveness is a choice and while we don't have to do it and
they probably don't deserve it
and we may desire NO real Relationship with them ever again-

It is just an available option to smooth the way for You and H
and I get that you don't want to play games and you want to be authentic, and that is awesome -

I just find for myself that dealing with some of my extended family members as well as many aquaintences and people I deal with through my work-
forgiveness and looking the other way helps keep things smooth,easy,and cordial
(not to say they are saints in any way)
but my focus is to accept my situation and make the best of it trusting God will and does make things right

not that I desire to have any "REAL" relationships with any of them either- but it helps keep doors open and contact cordial and to a minimum or as I choose

I only suggest it because it seems to mean a lot to your H and may possibly help your reconciliation process-

But follow your gut

all the best-


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It seems that you husband wants to keep you next to him as a plan B (sorry for the 2X4), his lacks of empathy in regards of your boundaries and triggers is really not the sign that you are piecing.

From what you are writing, it seems that he wanted to know if you still had feelings for him and assess his "power of seduction"on you. Now that you moved in with him, he is keeping you at distance. It looks like "temperature checking" with another round of MLC.

Moving away might be the best for you, first it will allow you to regain the sanity you finally had once you started to work on you and second it will show you that he cannot play with you anymore his little tricks. You deserved to be respected and right now he doesn't respect you, he doesn't show any sincere affection/love and he doesn't care about your feelings and how his behavior impacts your well being.

You deserved better.


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Hello all...........

I haven't posted in a while, but I do still try and keep up with everyone's sitch as best as I can.

Things in my world are so up and down....and it is draining.

H and I are still in the same house, but continue to sleep in separate rooms. Zero affection or intimacy. We spend time together, but it usually is only for a limited time, usually dinner or taking the dogs for a walk once or twice a week. I feel myself pulling further and further away. I have been continuing to look for places to move into. It is hard because I need a place with a yard because I will be taking the dogs. and owners in my area just do not want pets in their places.

Today H decided to take the morning off, and it was one of my days off as well. He asked me to go and have brunch, but I wasn't feeling it. We chatted for a bit about nonsense and then went outside. Had superficial conversations about the weather and the squirrels. We ended up back inside and then he started talking.

He said he knows he is "playing a game" and hoping for a certain outcome or trying to win, but also knows he is not making the right decisions to better his life. And, that the reason he is doing this is because he is "getting something out of not making those decisions" and "what he is choosing to do or not to do is somehow working for him." He apologized for that and understands that it must be very hard on me. When he says things like that it all sounds good, but then afterwards he doesn't follow through when he says he will do something.

He asked me if I knew what this next weekend was. The 19th is our wedding anniversary. He asked me if I would like to go and celebrate. Honestly I could not believe he asked me that. I told him I had not thought about doing anything, and I was not sure why he wanted to "celebrate" because we don't have anything to celebrate. He then proceeds to say "well, we are still married so I thought you would like to do something to celebrate the day we exchanged our vows." REALLY????? crazy

Let me back up a minute.........a few weeks ago I told H that I was going to be moving out as soon as I found a place. He wants me to have a relationship with his parents and I am not interested in making them a priority right now because I feel that they owe me an apology and I know I will never get it from them. They have never even acknowledged that fact that he cheated, or even had a conversation about it and it has been 2 1/2 years since BD. His father wanted H to basically punish me by having him do things to hurt me financially and emotionally. If I remember correctly HE is the one who cheated, not me, but I am supposed to be the one who is punished for it???

Going back to our conversation.............I changed the subject, but we still spoke about family. They are having some sort of family drama and his father is trying to control what H says or does in regard to it. His control has been an issue for some time.

We continued speaking about his parents.....things escalated and I told him that he is making the decision to bring his parents into our relationship, something that is none of their business. I also mentioned that he and I may not even survive this marriage, so why is he so adamant about me having a relationship with them. I said we should be working on us first, then deciding if it is in the best interest of our marriage to bring family into it.

In the end, he decided that he could not move forward with our marriage because of the lack of relationship between me and his parent......so basically he chose his parents over our marriage. So, I asked him if he would please start the process of doing what he needed to do so that we could get divorced. He just sat there and looked at me....almost like he was in shock.

He later had to go to work. Naturally we had not spoken for a few hours, and as he was leaving, he comes over to me and says "I'm going to work now." I just looked at him and said "why are you telling me this? He said "I don't know, I just want you to know where I will be." OMG!!!!!!

He came home from work later in the evening and was trying to make conversation with me. Telling me what he bought at the grocery store, and that he had to fill his truck up with gas. Why is he doing this?? How does a person say "I don't want to be married anymore" and then try to make small talk with you?!?!?!

This man needs help. He is so confused and I am so beyond wanting to help him. But I also know I cant help him.

I am so exhausted and my emotions are all over the place lately. I need to change the focus to me.

Sorry my post is so long frown

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SKM

He is one confused dude

I am sorry for you and hope you find a place soon

I think the contradictory words and actions are so painful

Because if they just moved toward D or R we would know how to act

Instead we get back and forth and react

I do not understand why he wants his parents involved

It makes no sense

Crazy and immature

Good for you for pointing it out

Never apologize for venting and sharing

Peace


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Hi, SKM -- I just read through some of your posts, and I don't know you from the boards and you probably don't know me, as I was taking a break for literally a couple of years but my H recently rebombed me so I am struggling and spending too much time lurking when I should be working.

I hope you won't mind if I chime in but my take is different because what is happening to you is the dream of dreams to me. Not that I think it's the perfect dawn for your M; but it is a little beginning. If my H did the things your H is doing, I would feel that a huge shift was happening and I would wait with expectation and caution and hope. It's not that I think your H is fully baked and ready; he does still sound like a mess and it does still seem like it's going to be a long time. But to me it sounds more like you don't want to take him back as he is, broken and shaky on his legs. To me it looks like your very confused H who went totally bonkers and destroyed your M and hurt you horribly is now trying desperately to climb back out of the pit, but every time he sticks his head out of the hole, you are either thinking or saying, "Too little, too late!" and wack-a-moling him on the head. I know you are hurt, believe me, I am a puddle of hurt and pain most of the time, and your heartache is just like mine; but to me I think you have so much cause for hope but you are too scared to allow for another long haul in this stage of the MLC. It sounds so scary because of the other women stuff but it sounds like he is really testing the waters, and that seems like a great thing, however difficult it may be.

I once read a devotional on Rejoice about how when the prodigal spouse tries to return, it's like a child learning to ride a bike. We would never think of running alongside our child shouting, "What the heck are you doing?! Why are you doing that? That's all wrong! You'll never learn to ride that bike!" It seems like you either have to let him wobble on those training wheels and learn how to ride the bike again (still with plenty of detachment and GAL on your part, I just mean the times when you are together) or tell him you don't want to be with him and end it. It seems like torture to keep setting an expectation for what he will do and then feeling horrible when he doesn't meet your expectation.

My circumstances and what my H has done are horrifyingly wretched and I am on year five now. But I know that the choice is mine, and that if I am going to keep waiting, I have to forgive daily. If I don't want to forgive, I can't make it dependent on what my H does, I have to choose to walk this path or leave it. At times when I stopped trying to forgive daily, I destroyed myself, not him.

I was also thinking, if the MLC'er is that way because they are returning to a horrible time of childhood, it seems really unrealistic to expect your H would not want to have peace with his parents. If he is able to make peace with his parents, I think he will be a much better H. From my far away vantage point of not knowing anything much about you or your M or anything at all, it just seems like you are also choosing his parents over the M, in a way. I think that once you felt confident in his love, and it might be a really really long time from now, you will be able to forgive his parents too, and you will feel free.

I'm really sorry if I am out of line in posting this. I am a very devout Christian, but I know that that kind of radical forgiveness is not for everyone. It's really hard for me too; but I just feel called to do it anyway. Recently I realized again that unforgiveness was for me a death -- it was sort of a reconversion for me, and since then I have been able to forgive my husband even though he has gotten worse. So that's what is behind my words. But I am sure you will find the path that is best for you. I wish you the best of beauty and joy and love in your journey either way.


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SKM,

It's been a little hard for me not to weigh in on your thread because I feel your pain so intensely. But, because we all think we see the clear path for everyone else (even when mired in our own maze as I am), I rather agree with Gerda here (but Gerda, sorry, I think you have put up with way too much for way too long. I've read so many threads where people thought they could nice them back or cake eat them back or scare them back, it doesn't work. If you love something, set it free. Let him see what he is missing). Sorry for the detour.

Gerda is right. He has major issues. But he also has awareness. He seems to know that he has issues. I think you are expecting too much, too soon, and I can't believe that you have not been showing him your disappointment and frustration. I'm sure you both feel overwhelmed.

It is easy for me to say this of course because mine lives far away and I don't want to be married to him anyway. I'm not the one who has to live in a house with someone who doesn't know what he wants, where he is going, and maybe not even where he has been.

I'm not saying I could do this, because I can't and am not in that position, but what if you said to him H I think we got off on the wrong foot here. I think you showed a lot of courage in stepping forward and wanting us to try again. I think I need to redouble my efforts in patience.

What if you agreed to wait for some period (6 months or a year) to discuss the R and the couple stuff, and instead just focused on getting to know each other again, and hopefully getting to like each other again, and hopefully wanting to take that further.

I just feel like you both care about each other but can't communicate and his expectations about his parents and your expectations about his ability to connect or communicate keep getting in the way. How about just having fun and talking about anything else but that.

I don't think you guys should move apart, I think you should find ways to connect as people. Not two people with a past, but just two people who once saw something in each other.

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Gordie, Gerda and Ownit.........thanks for the words. I appreciate you guys taking time to give me your perspectives.

Gordie..........H really is a very confused dude!!!! Last week he said he wanted to be married and wanted to do what he needed to do to work on this. But then he cant stop bringing up the parent thing crazy

Honestly I am not sure why he wants his parents involved in our relationship. When I ask him, he can not give me a good reason why. When we were still in a good place (before BD) his parents were not really involved in our lives that much. They don't live in the same continent or time zone as we do, so it isn't like it is easy for us to communicate much anyway.

Gerda.........I appreciate you taking the time to get to know my sitch. As far as me taking him back.......I have said to him that I want to work on this marriage. I offered to go to counseling, but he has somehow found excuses not to make an appointment. Some might say, why don't I make the appointment? I feel like if he really wanted to go he would make the appointment. I don't think this is an unreasonable request. He finds time to do things HE wants to do, so if this is something he wanted to do I would at least like him to make the effort.

I agree that I am hurting......no question about that. I also am not sure if I am ready to give so much of myself to him anymore, because I don't know if he is willing to do what it takes. What I would like is for him to be honest, no hiding texts, no more being deceptive about finances, and not have close inappropriate conversations/relatioinships with females. I saw on a text that he said to a female friend "thanks for suggesting those snacks, I saw that they will increase my sex drive, so thanks for thinking of me smile ." SO INAPPROPRIATE.

He says that he is going to "try" and stop doing certain things and start doing other things, but then doesn't follow through. He is used to living in his own little world he has created. I just don't know if he is ready for the uncomfortableness that comes along with really looking at who he has become.

I really have tried not to have any expectations of him, but when he says he wants to prove to me that he can/will do things, and then doesn't, its hard.

As far as his parents are concerned.......I don't feel that I am choosing them instead of my M. What I am choosing is focus on me and learn to be a better person going through all of this.

I know it sounds really awful, but I honestly don't want to have any kind of relationship with them. They have shown me they type of people they are and I don't wants those type of people in my life. H tells me that when he Skypes with them and is hanging up they say "tell SKM hello for us"........if they really meant that then why don't they reach out to me. It is not genuine at all in my mind. They are saying that for his benefit, or maybe their own.....I'm not really sure.

I also know it is hard for people to understand, but I don't need to forgive them in order for me to move forward. For me to be able to forgive someone I need to see some sort of regret or remorse, and I have seen none of that. They have not reached out to me at all since all of this happened 2 1/2 years ago......and sadly I don't think they will, so I had to let them go......so that's what I did. H tells me that since they are British they don't know how to show feelings or emotions. I tell him I disagree, and being that way is a choice they are making.

Ownit........yes, I agree H does have awareness. H has really been working on opening up more, but when he starts to feel uncomfortable he stops talking and crawls back into his hole. He avoids conflict at all cost.

I have really tried to be patient with him. I think that if I saw consistency from him it would make things easier for me. I would love to try and not discuss our relationship and focus on having fun. Unfortunately H has said on 3 different occasions that he is unable to move forward with things like that because he knows that ultimately the relationship between me and his parents is forever scarred, and he knows that I don't want them in my life. He continues to take the blame for that because he says he is the one who said all those awful things about me to them, so that is why they said and did the awful things to/about me. I just don't see why it is so important that I have a relationship with them. He doesn't have a relationship with my parents right now. It is not a priority for me right now, but for H it is?? frown

I do care about him, and I think he cares about me too. And I agree that we don't always communicate well.

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Your h is a very, very confused man. He's a man/child at the moment going back and forth from being a kid/teen to a mature adult. The parent issue may be because, at the moment, he sees himself as a kid/teen and wants/needs his parents involved in his life...right down to them staying in the home. As a child/teen, they want their parents approval/acceptance of all that they do. During the crisis, many of them make a huge effort to get closer to their parents and siblings, especially when they weren't close pre crisis. Right now, he's one of those that needs all of the acceptance/affirmation from his parents.

I know that this issue is really bugging you, but please try to remember, you are just along for the ride. This is his issue to deal with and unfortunately, right now, it is all about him and what he needs to do to figure things out. Yes, he wants to work on things, but he's continuing to walk in the same spot over and over again. He hears you and your thoughts on his parents and them staying with you, but his crisis is calling in a louder voice. If you put him in the position of his parents or you, he may very well choose his parents.

Your expectation level has to remain at zero or no more than one. He's not capable at this time to living up to your expectations. Keep in mind...you are the adult and he's living in a body w/two mind sets at the moment.

Dig deeper for patience. It's going to take him a while to come back to earth as a mature man. I know you are frustration, but you can't look at him as the man you married...unfortunately you either have to accept him as he is now or you will continue to deal with anger, frustration and disappointment issues until you get to the point of walking away completely.

The bottom line is this...keep the focus on you as much as possible, watch the financials and just listen and don't offer up any suggestions unless he asks for them. Keep the expectations to zero or one so that you aren't disappointed.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Job......everything that you said makes so much sense to me.

I honestly never thought that this whole issue with his parents was really about him and his need for acceptance. Before BD he did not have a close relationship with his parents or sibling, but after, he made such an effort to communicate with them way more frequently then he ever did before.

He is someone who needs "words of affirmation" often. That has been something difficult for me to do. I have made progress, but definitely not as much as he would like me to do.

I had a friend tell me that H is "a man in a boys body" ..... now more then ever is that becoming apparent to me.

We are not speaking right now. I worked for the past 3 days and did not hear one word from him all of those days. Then this morning, after he got home from working out, he says "good morning SKM"......I just kept doing what I was doing and did not respond. Things like that can drive a person crazy!!!

I already feel that he has chosen his parents, so I do wonder why I am still here crazy

This is going to be a LONG process!!!!

This weekend is our wedding anniversary. I am going to do my own thing and act as if it is just another day.

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skm, you are stronger than you think, but this battle is going to take much longer than any of us really knows.

You say he desires words of affirmation...I know how hard it is to affirm someone when they are doing their best to tick you off. Maybe you can only affirm the little things like..."you fix the best coffee", "you always keep your truck so clean", "thank you for working so hard". These little things might not mean that much to you, but to someone that craves it it might be huge.

Vince Gill has a song that's titled "It's Hard to Kiss the Lips". It has a line that says, "It's hard to kiss the lips at night, that chew your @ss all day long". I know it's hard to be nice to or want to love someone that doesn't deserve it or that doesn't want you to, but that is what we signed up for when we made that covenant with them. For now it is the fake it until you make it kind of things that will push us thru the BS.

You are and have been in my thoughts and prayers. I don't post much personally any more, but I am following along. God bless!

Last edited by job; 05/16/18 08:58 AM. Reason: edited a word

Me 49 W46
T25 M22
S22 D18 S13
W had EA Apr-Jul 2016
Dropped Bomb 7/9/16
ILYBINILWYA
HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17
Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
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Hey SKM, I hope you are doing okay? You'd last post was blank.

On the not speaking to each other thing. I was the queen of sulking and not talking when I was mad and I have been like that most of my life! I just found it very hard to talk to the person who I was mad right away.

I have recently realised what a waste of time it really is. Since my D and I have only each other for company now most of the time we have to get over fights and arguments much quicker otherwise it's very boring and lonely. I think once you start on that road and especially if you are both stubborn it becomes harder to get out of. This is something that I have had to work really hard at but sometimes someone has to break the deadlock.

Take care. X


Me - 47
H - 45
D-16
M - 6 years
Separated - May 16

Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
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RESTORED POSTING:

SBJ.......thanks for the reply. Sometimes I don’t feel very strong, sometimes I feel like I’m going to break! I do often wonder if this is a man that I really want to keep on trying to love????

Just doing some journaling.......

Well, the weekend went by and I survived it. Saturday was our 12th anniversary. H spent 90% of the day away from the house. I was keeping myself busy away from the house as well. We ended up returning home within an hour of each other. I asked him if moving forward he would be willing to communicate in regard to when he would be leaving and coming home, so that we know if one of us would be around to feed the dogs. He said that moving forward he would communicate with me better in that regard. He ended up apologizing to me for his lack of communication.

We touched on a few things briefly, but I did ask him if he wanted me to move out. He started off his response by saying he has intentionally put space between the two of us. So after hearing that I have made my decision that I will be moving out. I don’t want to be in the home with him if he is intentionally trying to distance himself for me.

Sunday I needed to run errands and asked him if he wanted to come..... he agreed.....I was very surprised he wanted to come with me. We ended up spending a few hours looking for some things that I will eventually need in my new place. I mentioned to him that I was hungry and was going to head home. He suggested that we should go to a restaurant that both of us really enjoyed. We actually had a nice time, and nice conversation. He offered to pay .........his debit card got denied!!!! I didn’t say anything or react. He then offered up a different card and that was accepted.

This morning he was distant again, but did let me know when he would be home from work. When he got home he asked me if I wanted to go eat somewhere with him, but I declined.

I’m trying to make sure that whatever conversation we have is pleasant, even though there are times when he is rude, and I just roll my eyes (he doesn’t see me do that). The past several nights he has made sure to come to my room to tell me goodnight. Weird because a few days before he wasn’t even speaking to me.

I just wish he would pick a mood and stick with it so that way I know how to respond!

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Thanks for being able to retrieve my missing post Job wink

Well.....H has taken to not speaking to me again crazy

These mood changes are so crazy!!! I really do wish he would pick a mood he wants to be in and stick with it!!!

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