I have a different perspective to share here that may or may not be helpful but "what the heck".
I'm the higher wage earner and am the one reluctant to "reward" my STBX for what she did. I also have a lot of anger that I'm trying to process and revenge, while petty is so very tempting. I'm also pretty sure that she has hidden some assets. Is she a narcissist? Well - many of the check-boxes get filled.
In the last settlement meeting it was pretty obvious that she was still completely unprepared and that she was furiously angry. The things that I (mind reading!) think she was angry about were that: - She was going to have to reveal "her" holdings - she always hated anybody including me being involved in "her" stuff. - She was going to have to do actual work to get the settlement - That I wasn't just rolling over - That I'm not playing along with her narrative (ahem - blatant and obvious lies) about her guy and her infidelity and her future plans - That I'm angry and bitter about what she did to me and our family
Now - maybe "I'm" a narcissist myself. Don't know but she would probably say I was.
Where I'm getting to though is a place where rather than looking at this in anger and punish her or trying to get the "best deal", I'm starting to look at it from the point of view of asking how much it will cost me to get this woman out of my life.
In your case 25 - you want to do things in a way that is "fair" to you. Which means digging in to his assets, mucking around in the swamp of his secrets etc. And that's good and reasonable from most people's point of view. As a lawyer you probably feel that following the proscribed procedures and doing things "right" is the best way to do them.
What if instead though you looked at it as "what am I willing to take" and maybe have your lawyer present a deal that doesn't involve discovery or getting every last cent you "deserve". You could present it as being simple and clean and letting him "have the retirement he deserves" - feel free to use that line
Just my 2 cents as a guy who is going to be reluctantly hosed over.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
I have a different perspective to share here that may or may not be helpful but "what the heck".
I'm the higher wage earner and am the one reluctant to "reward" my STBX for what she did. I also have a lot of anger that I'm trying to process and revenge, while petty is so very tempting. I'm also pretty sure that she has hidden some assets. Is she a narcissist? Well - many of the check-boxes get filled. My h is the higher income earner b/c he took up a 2nd career, during which I financed and raised our 3 kids AND worked full time, which I continuted to do for the first 20 years. I only stayed at home with the 3rd child, h's agreement and with his unrelenting hours. IF I had continued working full time there would literally be times my kids would have been alone, or we could hire a nanny and keep moving around b/c that's so easy o kids...
OH And at the expense of my professional career. I literally turned down a partnership to move, again, for h, to a state in which I was not licensed.
His resume is pristine, thanks to me. Mine has a 19 year gap with 1 year excepted, and my career gaps are 100% due to family demands.
Not that I feel defensive or anything.
I shall now help you understand what I think the narcissist believes...
In the last settlement meeting it was pretty obvious that she was still completely unprepared and that she was furiously angry. The things that I (mind reading!) think she was angry about were that: - She was going to have to reveal "her" holdings - she always hated anybody including me being involved in "her" stuff. Yes this^^^ MUST apply to h, since he took all the JOINT savings and yet has "no money" now. (But HE worked for it! It's all his, if you think about it)...
- She was going to have to do actual work to get the settlement tsk tsk, so unpleasant. Why can't you just let her be HAPPY?? You ruin everything
- That I wasn't just rolling over you're passive aggressive!
- That I'm not playing along with her narrative (ahem - blatant and obvious lies) about her guy and her infidelity and her future plans again you are ruining her happiness. You are selfish.
- That I'm angry and bitter about what she did to me and our family No, you're the only one sad. Everyone else is fine. Kids are resilient. They'll be happy FOR HER and that will make them happy.
Everyone is happy except you. And that's b/c you are a bitter angry man...
Now - maybe "I'm" a narcissist myself. Don't know but she would probably say I was. obvious...
Where I'm getting to though is a place where rather than looking at this in anger and punish her or trying to get the "best deal", I'm starting to look at it from the point of view of asking how much it will cost me to get this woman out of my life. I hear you. I am not trying to punish h. H thinks anyone who is not happy around him or who voices a request of him that perhaps was expected of him so that it mildly suggests he's deficient in some small way, will be accused of being "vicious and vindictive"...including our kids.
In your case 25 - you want to do things in a way that is "fair" to you. Which means digging in to his assets, mucking around in the swamp of his secrets etc.
"Fair"? It is impossible for me to get what is "fair". H will inherit millions when his sickly father passes away. I know that's not martial property, but it means his grip on the finances of MUTUAL assets is irrationally greedy and let's face it, I've been steamrolled and taken aback by the level of deceit h has shown. And in my most vulnerable moment.
And his willingness to fight dirty. He made the swamp. They are not "his" assets. But if your point is that it's a really big hassle to keep at this, yes it sure is. More than I would have imagined.
My advice to others is not to stay in a failed marriage (possibly the marriage you didn't know was failing) but to prepare yourself and enter this with your eyes wide open.
Don't play dirty, but be ready for them to do so.
And that's good and reasonable from most people's point of view. As a lawyer you probably feel that following the proscribed procedures and doing things "right" is the best way to do them. I was willing to take less than the law allowed. H's offer SEEMS to be "the minimum" I could get with a stamp. (Federally mandated share of pensions, below which I'd have to sign a waiver.)
Which is not super appealing
What if instead though you looked at it as "what am I willing to take" and maybe have your lawyer present a deal that doesn't involve discovery or getting every last cent you "deserve".
Andrew, what do you think I've been seeking? Good grief. Can you see my timeline? My marital length, etc?
The only wrinkle is that my L seems to be a pushover. It's Like I'm playing poker with my own L. But your point is taken and I have felt that way the entire time I've been posting on this round 2. I would take less than I would have said just 6 months ago. So that's either progress or caving in
You could present it as being simple and clean and letting him "have the retirement he deserves" - feel free to use that line That's valid Andrew. I get it.
(Yeah that "retirement".... which is sometimes the same as the partnership he's buying into, or the fellowship he wants to do, again, (age 61) or traveling the world OR helping veterans - but he left his job AT the Veteran's hospital
Whatever..
Just my 2 cents as a guy who is going to be reluctantly hosed over.
Andrew,
I don't know your situation - I only know If this were about fairness, I would not be here. We could have parted like adults and how our kids deserve, or communicated honestly & worked things out, etc.
I more than earned every single cent I get.
H gets to earn what an anesthesiologist earns b/c that's what I enabled him to become while our first child was 8 weeks old. Yeah, 8 WEEKS old and I was in law school and this was the SECOND career of h's...
if I were not 57 and starting over in a state I'm not licensed in, b/c my family is here and there was a medical setback (from which my h THE DOCTOR was AWOL), and there's a federal hiring freeze
and IF h had not behaved so miserably and dishonestly, all of your suggestions would be a lot easier.
H has taken a sad situation, the end of a long marriage that was once very loving, and turned it into such an ugly sickening ordeal, I'll never see him in the same light.
But that's okay. He's not my problem anymore. Your post only mildly annoyed me. Then I decided to take it on as a project.
Then i got to vent, so thanks!
Hope you get that.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Seriously? H calls your brother and all you know is you'll find out more tonight?
Please post as soon as you find out.
Likely just trying to get your brother to convince you to leave everything to H and let him have his zipless divorce. Or just telling your brother how happy he is and how his is all your fault.
Don't take any of it personally, just look at it as strategic information which may help you.
(Btw - I kinda forgot H was an anesthesiologist. You know they're notorious for developing drug addictions, don't you? Any suspicions?)
Seriously? H calls your brother and all you know is you'll find out more tonight?
I KNOW! Brother is in trial. But my brother - my favorite one, I might add- left me a CASUAL message Sunday to say "25, give me a call when you can"). I figured hey I'm too stressed so I'll return the call in a few.
But then bro leaves me a message today "oh, btw, H called. So give me a call when..."
WHAT???
ANYHOW, so I call brother. Bro starts with how h called out of the blue, talked for 30 minutes. Bro told H upfront he's "not authorized" to speak for me and that he did not reveal anything from my position, to h. Just listened.
Bro said H was "nice" on the phone and said that h wants to "do an end around L's and work something out." Also, H seems to concede (at least in theory) that he is "could work something about spousal support" for a certain number of years.
"Wonders if there is a number".
ALSO says "Kids aren't talking to him" and "that hurts". Also told bro that He "gave d20 'veteran's benefits for college...."
OKay wow... so first I get to whine, okay?
3 Bones to pick (then I can SIGH in cautious relief).
1 - "Doing an end round the L's" has both appeal and alarm. Maybe h's L fired him. OR got through to him AND OR h fears the discovery process b/c of hidden assets.
2) "Kids aren't speaking" to him...really? WHY??? What happened?
Pick up the phone, h. They won't hang up.
3) AND finally - the veteran's benefits H IS "GIVING" D20 (like it's out of h's pocket or cost him a thing) but oops, a "glitch" occurred & it wasn't done correctly so, guess what?
D20 - (the strong but emotionally fragile recently suicidal child) got a bill from the US Government demanding repayment! Gosh, that was a fun certified letter to open. Enjoy your $h1t sandwich, kiddo!
AND -- hard to know which part of it is my fav, the aggressive bills to a young college student
OR the fact that it's for books & expenses so even if she got to keep it, it's like 1/10 of the costs of the school.
whines over...now
SIGHS of cautious relief....
that h would even SAY the words "spousal support" and Not say "would rather be a pauper/and/ hates my guts'.
Own, if you are out there, or anyone with this type of experience---
bro was surprised when I mentioned the "hates guts" comment. (No, I don't think h does actually, but when I heard it, I figured "yeah, h believes it").
Bro said "well just that's the L's talking..."
WTF?
Bro also said his opinion of my L (the main one on my case, not the senior partner)
was that she was "a competent, standard Div L, wants the PROCESS to work itself out."
SIDENOTE legal - for those in the military
H offered to agree to pay me extra or promise to, if he gets disability - b/c that would lower my income.
But the recent Supreme court case says that cannot happen so I am at risk. Meaning that h's offer is unenforceable.
hard to believe h does not know this. But that's still something I'd have to navigate around anyhow.
Don't know where Schmoopie OW is, or if (But I sure hope she hates gluten).
Anyhow, I think I at least have a reason to think maybe h is not totally on the ledge??
Thoughts?
Please post as soon as you find out.
Likely just trying to get your brother to convince you to leave everything to H and let him have his zipless divorce. Or just telling your brother how happy he is and how his is all your fault.
Don't take any of it personally, just look at it as strategic information which may help you.
(Btw - I kinda forgot H was an anesthesiologist. You know they're notorious for developing drug addictions, don't you? Any suspicions?)
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
The one thing I can say about h and drugs, at least historically, is that he's a tee totaler.
Has a very healthy respect/fear/neurosis of them.
Had surgery twice and ALWAYS takes the least amount of pain meds possible (fool!) Barely drinks.
both his parents were functioning alcoholics who kind of terrorized h early on. H was older of 2 boys.
When his parents were separated and prepping for divorce, his dad was overseas. Then h's mom "got weird" at home with h's younger brother in fear. This was while h was in freshman year of college 5 hours away.
H came home to see that his mom needed hospitalization for psychiatric problems, and while he was figuring out how or if to do this, h's mother tried to kill h as he was the "anti Christ".
H gets her committed and arranges care for his high school brother by personally going to the school and getting his brother some help. H manages to commute weekends to college and back, and gets a 4.0
When h's mom gets released 6 weeks later, she's extremely remorseful. (Rest in Peace mil)
And No one seems to hold it against her but I'm sure it was freaking traumatic. And I know h was resistant to ever later admitting when she was having another episode. I hate to say this but I spotted those things coming first and would tell h, "h, your mom is starting to need to adjust OR TAKE her meds again..."
and I swear, as we aged, it was as if h forgot those periodic weirdnesses and later on, I got to be the anti-Christ. Wow, fun times...
I'm not going into h's FOO problems for several reasons. Plus I have some of my own.
I guess I think if h were ever going to get into drugs I'd think it would have happened by now.
WHO KNOWS?
Please reaffirm for me that it's not my problem, now?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I find myself feeling sorry for h b/c he's "hurt" by the kids not talking to him/
Actually the past 10-15 years were about me smoothing over their r's. Jesus, I'm a sucker.
Or am I being compassionate? WAIT this is the same man who posted on FB about the love of his life and taking Schmoopie to Our vacation places and replacing me before we were sep
okay, Okay, my memory came back...phew, for a minute there I was spinning
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
My H was a teetotaler who never, ever, ever drank and wouldn't dare take drugs. You know where that has gone.
25, can you follow the Maybell FB thread to find her. Leah did and I got her name from Leah and now I'm hooked up with her. Would be great to chat on the phone. So much here to consider.
I think he called your brother either because he knows he's been ridiculous or the lawyer has fired him because he doesn't want to be on the wrong side of a contempt charge or H isn't paying the bill, or they asked for a big retainer for what's coming up. In other words, BECAUSE DOING SO IS GOOD FOR H RIGHT NOW!!!
Get brother out of it, you are a big girl. Have your own conversation with H. Keep it to the wrapping up of the business. Tell him he is on his own with the kids. You didn't break it and you can't fix it. As an outsider to the situation, try picking up the phone and see where that gets you to start.
It is very easy to calculate half of everything because that is what you are entitled to. Simple, clear, stupid.
He says that he has retired, great, stipulate that for the next (I don't know 10 years) he provides you his tax returns (and a signed transcript form so you can confirm) and if he has worked in that year, you get HALF.
Of course in the first call I would duct tape my mouth and listen to what he has to say and then say you need to think it over (discuss with your attorney) and you will get back to him.
I for one am THRILLED with this development. Again, you will only get paid if he wants to pay you. That simple.
