WW in A. NC w/ OM(?) Next steps? (6th thread)

[Cadet]

I recall Cadet posting somewhere early in the newcomer's threads something to the effect that "you will hear a lot of advice and ideas on here and not are all completely consistent with DB-ing.
DB-ing is bringing more love into your marriage, things that are more selfishly oriented are not DB-ing."

Love means setting strong boundaries and enforcing them.

Would you let your child jump off a cliff because you did not want to sound harsh by yelling at them to stop?

If I said the above it would be in those terms.

[Tread]

I think most of these concepts are great. But a lot of it is stab in the dark to see what works. Which is why you test something out and reevaluate a few weeks later. Even though some of the advoce contradicts the book at times. For the most part it is great advice, especially from the veterans.

[hoosjim]

Sandi, thanks. Some housecleaning:

Lingering rebellion, maybe?


Why did you think it ever left? The rebellion keeps her from committing to do what is required to save the M.

That's why I said "lingering". As in, it's still there and never left. You and I agree here.

This makes me want to scream and pull my hair out! You are insinuating that you have received advice to not play it cool and to not be confident. How many times were you told to pursue her and to force R talks? Heck, you are the one who is always wanting to talk about things and saying you don't know how not to talk about it. And finally.........who has ever told you to get harsh with her, unless you see standing strong and confident as meaning to be harsh.

This^^^ and the rest below it: Look, I own the fact that I should have followed through in the aftermath of the phone discovery three weeks ago, okay. I GET THAT. I am also not trying to "cherry pick" suggestions... just trying to find as much commonality as I can across them all as well as commonality with my own sitch (which, through my own mistakes, yes, is increasingly unique and difficult). I'm not trying to "get out" of anything or blame anyone else for anything, okay? I'm just trying to salvage the situation as best I can and make sense of everything I am hearing/reading. You have to admit, yes, that while there is an underlying commonality of "We need to be apart for awhile" that there is a whole range of thought on how to do that. One or the other may NOT be the best path for me and my family (I have a severely troubled, near-autistic teenager to think about at the moment in addition to my MR and my WW, remember). I'm not trying to "twist" anything. Far from it. Just trying to choose the best path, and there are very clearly way more than one here, even if limiting oneself to what could loosely be described as the "consensus" on these boards.

Specifics. Yes, I let her off the hook too easily and, yes, allowed myself to get sucked into two MR talks with her and yes tried to move ahead too quickly thinking I could establish paramaters for us to start working things out (which is what she initially said she wanted). The three big ones there were 1) The A/OM was done, COMPLETELY. Any further contact and I file 2) Transparency (I track her phone, she checks in when she's out, her phone is unlocked and, for the record, while it may have been a WEAK transparency plan, I was the one who insisted on the phone tracking and unlocked phone... not her. She was the one who volunteered the "checking in".) 3) We get back in counseling. I also told her that if I was going to stick and give this a shot that WE had to be the priority... not friends, not other family... US... and that, given the history, we would need to talk about how to handle her friendship with bff (I did not demand that it be cut off).

Lets assume #1 is a check and #2 is a check-- the only thing she hasn't done on #2 is find a way to account for that second burner phone and lets assume (I know, I know) that by virtue of the nature of that device and transaction and her sneaky wayward data-deleting bff she actually CANT provide me any accounting for that. Just assume, okay? Even so, at that point in time, however she was only a little less than two weeks into the post-A funk, and almost certainly not ready for all the rest of that (working on the MR) despite what she said. Heck, she's not ready for it now, and, as I indicated, I had significant doubts as to whether or not I should have pushed the counseling. My thought in doing so was that our counselor is pretty hard over that my W needs some individual counseling, which this counselor also does and has had two fairly brief (30 min) sessions with my W solo, and that that might help her (MC has said she has had good success working with women coming off of affairs and working through the addiction withdrawal angle), but... again, W is clearly not ready and seems to pretty demonstrably fear the MC process at this point (painful, will force her to face up to her failings, etc etc). Seems to me from reading through the DB books and listening to folks her that pushing the MC (just like pushing MR talks) is a form of pressure that is not necessarily a good idea. So, important question that I will ask again: Do you think differently? The professional help IS in fact an important even critical component for me at some point, was something concrete i felt I needed and at the time I "insisted" on it I thought it was appropriate to set forth as a condition. Now I am not so sure should have made that demand... especially at that time. Yes, I probably should have held off on all of it and either elected to be there for her until she could work through the post-A funk (assuming I elected to trust her) or else gone ahead and pushed for some sort of separation.

Here's the thing. I think she is really NC with OM right now. I think she is also legitimately trying to find out if she can "have feelings for me" by following me around, hanging out with me, and calling/texting me constantly (A misguided approach, yes, but it is what it is.) Or at least that's what she's convinced herself of. Let me be clear that THIS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME! I recognize that it is not productive and, additionally, not healthful/helpful for ME.

BUT... I have TWO objectives here, and I cannot and will not pretend that I DONT. One is obviously to take care of myself and make a better life for myself and a better person OF myself. Okay, working that, but the MR overlay and attachment to my W is obviously holding me back some. Second is to reconcile with my wife and forge a new relationship IF POSSIBLE.

So: I am not forcing anything until after this weekend when S18 is off to college and S16 starts his next round of therapy.

Thereafter: I have a tension between the importance of being around to be with her through the A withdrawal and the importance of detaching and creating some separation to both improve my mindset and, in the longer term, hopefully draw her towards me. Problem is is that I am not really sure where she is at. I am legitimately concerned about turning her out right now if she is starting to turn towards me--- that's who I WAS before. And, yes, I know that the dynamics now are different because she is a WW but...

Part of me thinks that the best thing for me to do right now in terms of goal #2 would be to be available to her but not TOO available. And, yes, to me that would mean being in the same house but living my own (awesome) life and not pushing any more MR talks with her, separate sleeping arrangements (and, yes, I know that means the dreaded and prolly doomed to failure in-house separation.)

The other part of me thinks: She betrayed me. I told her I wanted her out. She showed initial signs of deep regret/remorse and said she wanted to make it right and work on us but then hasn't followed through and when I gave her parameters (for better or worse) under which I would do that she hasn't indicated an eagerness or even a willingness to undertake all of those. She's also shown a disturbing lack of awareness of the "single girl" dynamic and how that affects the trust equation under the circumstances, and hasn't shown any willingness to either distance herself from bff or discuss that relationship. Given all that, not sure I can trust her and I think it would be good for us to go our separate ways.

Maybe a week or two away would be best for me (and her) to kind of clear our minds. I need to choose a path, and so does she. Ideally, she would choose the path of distancing from the bff and, ultimately, of working more completely on our MR. But she may not. Heck, when I come back I may not want her to.

Should I do or say anything else WRT the bff? I am still not sure she understands the tension that relationship is placing on our relationship... I think she thinks it is all about the OM and now that OM is "out of the picture" she can hang out and interact with bff all she wants. And they are in pretty much constant (daily) contact, at least by phone and text and have had at least one overnight get together a month, at least up through the end of last month (July). I don't think a "choose between me and her" ultimatum would be helpful or productive, but I have already discussed with her twice how she needs to understand that given the history (bff as enabler) that I have a very difficult time trusting that relationship or trusting her when she is out with bff. At the end of the day, were we to be reconciled, I honestly don't have to trust bff... I only have to trust her, but she and I are FAR away from that, currently. I do feel like that relationship (W and bff) would almost have to be put on "hold" at the very least if she and I were ever to productively "work on us", and I honestly don't know if that would ever happen, so joined at the hip are they.

I'm rambling.

Currently, you are sounding as if you feel defeated. However, I think you are in a position of strong influence. Maybe not easy........but strong. This can be a crossroads for your W. If she chooses to follow her BFF's example, you probably won't see much improvement in your MR...........unless she gets her eyes open and sees how that influence is harming her MR. What can you do about it? That's entirely up to you.

In some ways I do feel defeated. So much has been stacked against me. Prolly the only thing leaning my way is W's reluctance to fully abandon her family, her friends, and the way of life associated with her former way of living. She fears losing her kids, she fears losing the love and respect of her parents, she fears what her friends (other than bff and her other single divorced friend) will think, and she fears being "on her own." But there is no love for me there... at least not romantic love... currently, although we have the other elements (friendship, cooperative parenting, etc.) but not the most important element. There's just a barrier there and one that wont be overcome without both of us buying in and working on it. But that barrier is there. God has richly blessed me and I consider myself to be "a catch" and would love my chances with any available woman in my wife's circumstances (notwithstanding her being married, of course) in a vacuum. But we're not in a vacuum. She's mourning a recent affair that most certainly turned her heart (and not just her desires) towards another man, she has a bff who is her closest confidant and most important "support" who is NOT an advocate for our marriage and who leads a very wayward lifestyle.

My sense is that I need her to be "all in" on this... or I cannot be. To me that means, as I told her last week, that WE need to be the priority over everyone else (I did not specifically say she couldn't see bff) and that we need to be seeking professional help. Was that too much, or too little? Sometimes I feel like people are suggesting it needs to be her decision to do these things, and other times I feel like people are suggesting that I lay things like that down as requirements for me sticking around. On some level, they ARE requirements for me sticking around, but do I demand them of her, or just generally tell her "I can't do this, I need you to be committed to this"? Seems to me I have, for better or worse, given her my parameters. If she is not willing I need to pull back and just tell her "I can't do this this way any longer". Maybe that is too much pressure for right now, and maybe I shouldn't have established counseling as a "necessary", but seems to me to save any kind of face that I need to take that stance. And maybe that's the best stance for me to be in, anyways...

A week or so away should help clear my head.

[Coconut]

I was trying to break up your last post and respond to multiple things you said, but I don't think it's helpful at this point.

I'll just say this about your two objectives:

1. You say you need to take care of yourself and make a better life. What are your thoughts on how to do this?

2. Second is to reconcile with your W and forge a new R. What do you think will help you get there, specifically what can YOU (not your WW) do to get there?

[hoosjim]

Coconut. Yes, very rambl-y. sorry. I think it was Jefferson who once said "I'd have written something shorter but I didn't have the time". Typically I am pretty rushed and tend to get kind of stream of consciousness, which I am sure does not help with the dialogue.

Anyhoo:

1) Is easy, though conditional. If W is "all in", then making a better life for me means that I am "all in" and we are doing whatever it takes to work on us. Nothing held back. But we are not there right now. In that case, making a better life for me means doing what I am doing already PERSONALLY plus, I think, distancing myself from the painful dynamic that is my W's current life and her uncertain relationship with me.

2) I have no blinking idea. I really don't. She craves attention, and love, and intimacy, and human contact, and conversation, etc. etc. I don't think it is any coincidence that since she has cut contact with OM and her bff has been somewhat out of touch that she has been constantly contacting me and, when I am unavailable, pretty quickly asking "Where are you where are you where are you?!?!". She was very, very lonely for a very, very long time. Is some of that playing me? Perhaps. But my true, honest, sense is that right now she needs contact and interaction with a friendly face. Necessarily me? Perhaps not. But if I am not "there for her" then I am being the same inaccessible guy I always was before that got me into this mess. Yes, the dynamic is now different. But is she "turning"? I don't know. I think, sadly, that my mishandling of the sitch may have stuck her and us in a place where she was starting to come around but then I jumped too quickly and now we are going to be in the "friend zone."

OTOH, is she still showing signs of "Waywardness"? Yes. She still wants to have nights out with her single (and one clearly wayward) friends, but she has almost a naivite about some of things she does when she's out and about how good she looks and how guys look at her. She doesn't feel pretty, but she is. Very. Which is one way OM got into her life-- managed to feel pretty. But she doesn't really believe it when anyone else tell her. She says she doesn't want sex or physical intimacy with anyone right now (she feels fat). She's also clearly not100% committed to me or to "Saving the MR at all costs." All that speaks to a sitch where I need to be distancing and keeping my distance.

There's a tension WRT #2 that I am having a very difficult time reconciling. And, yes, I completely understand that it is largely of my own making. And I am genuinely sorry for putting everyone on her through so much, after everyone has been so kind and offered up so much help and support and suggestions. I feel like I'm letting down not just myself but the whole community sometimes...



And can I just add something here, in response to something Sandi said: I don't think I have ever, nor would I ever, blame someone here for something that happened with my sitch. A take FULL responsibility for where I am and where I am going. While I do solicit input, the decisions I make and how to proceed with my life are MY OWN. That is one of the key lessons I had already learned, even very early on, when all this blew up on my back in January. So if I have given anyone the impression here that I am holding them responsible for where I am or for my own screw ups... then I apologize. Never my intention.

I appreciate the time and effort that so many people put in here to try to help others. Someday I hope that I am leveled and grounded enough, and experienced enough, to help others as well. But right now I feel like I'm kind of a train-wreck DB-ing wise.

[hoosjim]

Currently, you are sounding as if you feel defeated. However, I think you are in a position of strong influence. Maybe not easy........but strong. This can be a crossroads for your W. If she chooses to follow her BFF's example, you probably won't see much improvement in your MR...........unless she gets her eyes open and sees how that influence is harming her MR. What can you do about it? That's entirely up to you.

And I am really scattershooting here, but... Sandi, what CAN I do about it. I have no control over her. Seems that I can step away, maybe tell her WHY I am stepping away (including my feelings about bff and unwillingness to compete with that), but that's about it. It would REALLY help her to get herself into counseling, but that on some level is entirely up to her. It's like the alcoholic or druggie who wont seek help-- they have to be willing to help themselves.

Thanks again!

[25yearsmlc]

you make this way more complicated than it has to be. Just reading your posts forces readers to go back to an earlier posts to remember what "#1" & #2" are.

And by implication you are suggesting people who post to you might have "selfish anti DB" opinions. And that it's confusing.

I see common themes in 90% of the advice you get, including my own.

I'll say this one last time- your wife has not faced consequences for her A, and probably won't feel any.

That is because you have not enforced any boundaries. And your boundaries are blurred when you see her balk.

She cannot miss you b/c she still has you there. You're not giving her anything to miss.

And I would not monitor any behavior for at least 30 days but I'd aim for 90.

[Coconut]

I asked you what you plan to do to meet YOUR two objectives and your response is what she will need to do for you to be able to meet YOUR objectives. Think about that. If you don’t have control over obtaining your objectives, then I would suggest you figure out new objectives. For example, I wouldn’t say that my goal is to win the lottery, sure I can play the lottery, but I have no control over what balls go into the shoot. If I wanted to get a million dollars, it would be much better to say that I’m going to create a business plan, get a loan or investors, and work my a$$ off to make my business successful.

You say YOU have two objectives, but getting them done ALL depends on your WW actions. I hope you are able to take control of your life as an individual soon, I would hate to still see you here in another year still going in the same circle.

Anyway, I’m going to try this another way (you know what they say about a person who keeps trying the same thing expecting a different result). I went back through your sitch from your first post, and copy and pasted some of your words throughout your sitch that I think you should read and consider what you have tried and if the results have gotten you closer to your goal.

Until someone in your M makes changes, it will continue as it is. It’s often said the WW wants the freedom, but also wants full access to the security of the M and for the spouse to be at their beck and call, so they throw just enough bait to keep them hooked. I wouldn’t expect her to change because she’s happy with the same result over and over.

#2729896 - 02/13/17 12:23 PM
She, while having stepped back a half step from the brink of walking out, says she is conflicted and confused, but still feels a bit like she is trapped and not making any progress. Problem is, she does not want to commit to working on the relationship.

#2740576 - 04/25/17 11:09 AM
W "drew back" from affair for a handful of weeks but now fully "engaged" with OM yet again. I have successfully implemented GAL measures

#2740598 - 04/25/17 12:40 PM
I am very close to putting my foot down and demanding that she cut contact or, if not, we separate (at least "in house.")

#2742840 - 05/10/17 02:31 PM
Trying to decide now WON to try to seek some MC.. she's mentioned but more in the context of box checking and "seeing if I want to try to work on marriage" rather than actually affirmatively "working on marriage."

#2742819 - 05/10/17 12:05 PM
I honestly think that complete distancing, close to the point of going "dark" would be counterproductive. OTOH, she is fairly clearly not interested in me right now...

#2743411 - 05/15/17 11:01 PM
She is out until 5:15 AM, stopping to spend an hour and 15 mins at OMs house

#2743421 - 05/16/17 05:16 AM
And, finally, to color what you tell me (yes, 4th post)... i absolutely 100% AM ready to end my marriage if this A does not stop.

#2744124 - 05/21/17 10:04 PM
Well, she definitely (okay, say 95% chance) saw the OM Friday night on way out of town when she was supposed to be with BFF. Not sure what they did but they met at a bar and there are three and a half unaccounted for hours. There was also a side-trip Saturday, unaccounted for by her

#2744173 - 05/22/17 08:47 AM
Now, she's violated the boundary, and pretty clearly so. I am ready to enforce it, and to end the marriage if necessary. I can't go on like this-- it is just too painful.

#2745702 - 06/04/17 11:29 AM
I have ended up in MC before having regained my wife's interest and before her A with the OM has ended.

#2746815 - 06/14/17 07:22 AM
She says she has been doing a lot of thinking and some reading, and evaluating what she has been doing, and that she was (again) sorry for what she had done in terms of the A with the OM and that she knew that that had hurt me, but that she was trying to be open and explore her feelings towards me, etc. etc.

#2746815 - 06/14/17 07:22 AM
she made one BIG denial that "I have not seen him since _______" which I couldn't stop myself from responding to-- she had seen him for a brief 10 min kissing meet up on Saturday, which I knew about but didn't share other than "I know you saw him at ______ on Saturday morning

#2748339 - 06/26/17 03:04 AM
Now, I am probably not to full "no contact"... though I might be and am at least REALLY close.

#2748594 - 06/27/17 07:32 AM
I get that I can't control her. But if she won't "control herself", then I am free to walk. That was the whole gist of our discussion a week or so ago.

#2750074 - 07/07/17 08:08 AM
In sum, though, her general frame of mind seems to have changed very little and, in fact, I would say she even seemed slightly LESS committed/interested in continuing to work on MR than in previous sessions-- "Not sure I want to keep doing this."

#2750159 - 07/08/17 07:03 AM
But what if, just what if, she is actually maintaining "no contact" right now... which is a pretty significant possibility (though obviously damaged by the fact that she is not going out of her way to be transparent and contrite).

#2750815 - 07/12/17 09:29 AM
Dangit, why did I have to put up surveillance and snoop again? So, come to find out, she downloaded the "Viber" app onto her phone while at the beach with bff, which is a VOIP and also "secret chat" app. Then, I find out from OMs facebook page that he was not only out of town this past week but AT THE BEACH

#2751087 - 07/14/17 02:10 AM
W is really, truly "No Contacting". Can I be 100% certain? No, but, then again, nothing ever is

#2751583 - 07/17/17 02:53 PM
Finally, it sEems likely she was secret chatting on FB messenger with OM. On way back from gym I DM'd my don about college orientation coming up. Noticed wife was "on", which is unusual these days. As lso noticed OM was on.

#2752385 - 07/21/17 05:23 AM
Dang it. I just can't trust her. Maybe I should, but she has definitely not made any sort of rock solid commitment to the MR, and there are just too many doubts on the OM/A front.

#2753329 - 07/26/17 08:16 AM
"Im handling this the best I can... I was getting closer and closer to cold turkey and now I have... You hurt me so badly and I suffered so much for all those years and it has only been these six months for you... I needed to do this MY way, not by your rules (As in my boundary of absolutely no contact), etc. etc."

#2755288 - 08/07/17 03:20 AM
I am becoming more and more convinced that I need to just move on and, if she "comes back", she comes back.

#2756543 - 08/15/17 03:43 AM
In the days immediately following the last revelation, she appeared very remorseful and talked like someone who wanted to do whatever it took to "make this right" (though she did not use those words.) And I gave her parameters under which I would work to, as she said, "figure things out with us". She has not, of course, done any of those things other than some of the already described efforts at transparency and, assuming she is in fact not in contact with the OM, by staying away from OM. But she is clearly not "all in" and she is clearly "not ready" to commit to working on us.


You want to be with her, so you haven’t given up on her even though she has been in an A, if she wants to be with you, do you think she’s going to leave you if you are out finding your happiness, a life that fulfills you?

[Zues126]

Coconut, this was one of the best posts I've ever seen on DB forums. Just wow. It really tells the story.

[Tread]

Coconut,

After reading your post, I'm tempted to go back and read how I've been doing throughout my sitch. Sure we all have been as hopefully and faced constant disappointment from our WS. But I see the point of what you brought up here. All the hoping in the world will not work in regards to the WS, until you are truly ready to get on with your own life.