WW in A. NC w/ OM(?) Next steps? (6th thread)

[hoosjim]

This is my 6th thread. My previous thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2756115&page=1

In a nutshell, my profile is down there at the bottom. After a long period of neglect, definitely classifiable as a "sex-starved marriage", my W began EA with a close friend last fall (first thought it was November, but have since found it was really October that all the texting started) after I had gone to him for help with my M and basically revealed my W's vulnerabilities. There had been warning signs-- she had come to me a couple three times over past two years telling me how sad/lonely/lost/dead-inside she felt, and I pretty much turned it back on her every time, though one time I did ask her "not to leave" when it looked like she was going to. Anyway, BD in January when I overhear convo between her and OM. I was weak and desperate at first, but within less than two weeks after BD was really doing a great job with GAL's and 180s, and W noticed. Problem was, she was not a WAW but rather a WW, wanting to enjoy the single life, "girls gone wild" lifestyle with her single/divorced/separated friends. I didn't handle my interactions with her all that well for a few weeks, wavering between "pursuit" and enablement. Finally got buckled down. Looked like A was going to or had even already died of natural causes... and then something happened. Still dont' know what. A meet up or night out or party or something and it rekindled. W bought a burner phone which I later found out about. Beginning of June I tell her my boundary that "I wont share her or live in an open marriage". She indicates that cheater phone is gone and she will NC with OM. There is a big blow up night only a week later where she, I and her bff (also a WW and sometimes enable of my own W's affair) had too much to drink, said too much, and my W ended up sneaking out after we went home to meet up with bff and OM. She did NOT know I knew about this, and I did not confront her thinking we could "use a reset" based on events. I do put up some surveillance on her and late June, not long before we are to start intensive therapy, I "catch" her in two fairly intimate/emotional encounters with OM. I go dark for four days during which she pursues me relentlessly. She finally corners me into a talk where she talks about all the things SHE did wrong in our MR that led us to this point... and then I tell her what i know about her and OM. She then takes several steps (without promising me full transparency or committing fully to working on MR) that lead me to believe she is really "Trying" in her own way. This turns out to be false as of 7/23 when I find out she has purchased a second burner phone and she confesses to fairly regular text and phone contact with OM. I walked off and left her at car that, slept in separate BR, etc. and pretty much "go dark". She keeps after me by phone and text for two days, eventually corners me into a convo, says tearfully that she is sorry she hurt me, that she had been "working up to" cold-turkey no contact with OM (a self-contradiction, yes) and that she had called OM to break it off and destroyed her extra phone (heard that one before) and that she wanted to work on trying to "figure us out." I tell her that it's not going to be that easy, that I am not sure that I can or should trust her and not sure that I want to try to work things out any more. A week later (8/1, I think), I confront OM and, in an ugly exchange, tell him I know everything and to stay away from my wife and family. While somewhat cathartic for me on some level, this brings back a lot of pain and hurtful feelings/memories for both me and W. We talk about it and she is still bothered by thought that she has "hurt" OM and that he may have been further "hurt" by my confrontation. She also says she is "not sure" what she wants to do about us. I listen but say little. That weekend, we talk again, and I reiterate that "maybe we need some time on our own" and she says (for what seems like the 20th time) that she is tired of all the "pain" and "negativity" and wishes we could just push the "reset" button and let "Monday be Monday and Tuesday by Tuesday without all the painful relationship talk." She also thinks we should just try to "be in the moment" and "try to have fun". I tell her that I am not willing to keep living with the uncertainty, that I am still not certain I can trust her, and that if she wanted to, as she said, "work on figuring us out" I would need some things, including solid assurances the OM was "gone" and to know that she was committed to the process and that we'd get professional help. That was the last "R" talk we had. She has been coming by my watering hole and hanging out with me, once by invitation, twice on kind of her own initiative, but otherwise we are kind of in limbo. Sleeping mostly separately (I have claimed the "better" bedroom but we have had company for a handful of nights recently which pushes me out of there.) I am probably going to force the issue here by end of weekend-- tell her I need some time to myself.

Feels like I'm actually making some progress personally, even if my M is not.

[25yearsmlc]

Jim

if you are making progress as a man, that is progress. I doubt the marriage could make real progress without someone moving forward on their own, first.

And you are.

It's hard to measure progress when it's you, other than bigger gaps between anxious moments, and maybe not as intense. And it's not linear.

I have said that ^^ a million times but it's really sinking in more now. We turn corners and then realize there is another corner to get past, b/c this really truly is a marathon.

But it's not endless, and at some point you'll look around and see how far you've come.

Keep at it.

((( )))


PS,

Oh, btw, I was thinking you could use some paragraph breaks to make it easier to read your posts. Just a thought.

[sandi2]

She also says she is "not sure" what she wants to do about us. I listen but say little. That weekend, we talk again, and I reiterate that "maybe we need some time on our own" and she says (for what seems like the 20th time) that she is tired of all the "pain" and "negativity" and wishes we could just push the "reset" button and let "Monday be Monday and Tuesday by Tuesday without all the painful relationship talk." She also thinks we should just try to "be in the moment" and "try to have fun

Having fun, living in the moment, and not having to deal with what she sees as negativity is a wayward W saying that she doesn't want to do the necessary work to save her M. She still wants to keep one foot in her wayward lifestyle she has carved out with her BFF and possibly OM ......or seeing other men in general. (She may replace OM1 for OM2). She has the BFF whispering in her ear playing up the fun, wayward lifestyle........and playing down the MR and the H as "negativity" in her life. Until she is willing to give up that behavior and lifestyle and accept responsibility for her actions, she is not going to do what is best for the MR. She whines b/c she does not want to go through the mental and emotional work required to have a better MR.

There have been few WW's I have observed that were anxious to give up the so-called fun (GGW stuff and OM) and buckle down to dedicating themselves to do whatever it took to heal the broken MR and achieve a healthy and happy relationship with their spouse. In other words, if a WW can get around the remose factor, and the commitment factor, and thrashing out the issues that existed before the rebellion and those that came b/c of the rebellion...........oh, and don't forget the withdrawal period that is hell for her, well, yeah.......she wants to bypass all of that b/c it is hardly a fun and carefree activity for her. Therefore, she sees the solution as hitting the reset button, and just pretend none of this happened.

There have been countless accounts of LBH's who wanted to hit the reset button, too. They had the idea that their former W would show up again. Didn't happen. B/c the reset button does not work well with human beings. We are not some tech app that can easily delete the files we no longer want in our history. To do so, would be saying it never really happened. Humans have to sort through it and learn why it happened and how to go forward in healing. We have learned this about childhood traumas as well as adult trauma. If it is not mentally and emotionally dealt with, it messes with the head. It's the same in this situation. This has been traumatic for the MR. If the betrayed H takes back his WW without having certain requirements from her, things will crop up, b/c the issues were not resolved. He discovers he is faced with emotions and thoughts that, perhaps, were shoved to the back burner while he was trying to hang on to his WW. His mind is not allowing him to simply ignore the betrayal, insult, and disrespect he suffered. The anger and resentment gets stronger, as he sees his WW acting as if nothing happened. She doesn't wish to discuss the matter any longer, b/c it is negativity for her. It is similar to an abuser who does not want to acknowledge their terrible acts forced upon another human. The abuser had rather keep it in the past and not rehash it. They claim they see no purpose, but actually, they don't want to take responsibility for it. So, the LBH (the abused) struggles moving forward b/c he is unable to heal, and she is the constant salt in his wound. He asks himself what did she lose due to her actions? What has she suffered due to her selfish choices? How can she act as if none of that was real, when his emotions and trust have been left scarred? Does she even care about his feelings?

Many times the H becomes the WAH after reconciliation. More so, when the WW has not shown remorse for her actions and how they affected him. When he sees no effort from her, no loving attitude of commitment......but rather a reluctance she makes well known in her own familiar way. He walks away to save himself from the abuser.

Yes, it is vitally important that the couple does not buy into the reset button lie. In order for the M to stand a chance of surviving and thriving.......she has to go through the process. Otherwise, she continues to be a wayward wife.........and the results will rear its ugly head in a matter of time.

I have seen some misquotes that say I believe the WW has to reach rock bottom. Actually, it is not necessary for every WW to hit rock bottom if she repents and turns back from her waywardness. However, those who are so hell bent in destroying their M and families, often have to experience rock bottom before their spirits are humbled enough to see the truth in their own wayward ways. It's up to them if they want to do the right thing or not. Some never do, b/c of the massive destruction they caused, they can't live with the truth and choose to turn a blind eye and lie to themselves........rather than facing and accepting the truth about themselves. As long as they can blame and justify.......they will cling to their waywardness instead of going through the painful process of correcting it. In other words, as longs as it works for them in some slim capacity......it is easier for them to continue the wayward road. I didn't hit rock bottom, in which I am so grateful, b/c the level I did hit was plenty for this old gal. I do believe the wayward will not get her eyes fully opened enough to be humbled at her destruction, until she suffers some type of personal lose or experiences consequences from her decisions.

In time, she may live to regret her descisions, but she may see it as being too late, b/c her H has moved on (often with another W and family). Remorse is a form of deep regret, and I believe it is a heavy sorrow and a sense of shame for the actions one chooses. It allows no self pity, no pride, no blame, no ego.........whatsoever. It is accepting full responsibility..........and, yes, feeling the horrible guit that engulfs the soul. Until she reaches this point, the hope of having a healthy, happy, fulfilled MR is not on the horizon, IMHO.

I never physically left the home. Emotionally, yes for quite some time. After coming to the board and being mentored by what I consider to be the best of the best.......it took me another two years before I began to feel remorse. I felt regret as soon as my deeds bit me in the butt, however, I was filled with so much resentment toward my H that it pushed out any chance of remorse. I couldn't sleep at night. The mental pictures and all the "what-ifs" playing over & over in my head kept the A alive. Every night from the time I got home from work, I would be here on the board. I would nearly collapse from exhaustion before going to bed. Finally, when I was willing to forgive my H of everything I resented in our marital history.........I could go to him with a humble, broken spirit that held no arrogance or stubborn pride and tell him how truly sorry I was for the pain I caused him. I realized if my H could forgive me for what I had done to him, then surely I could forgive him for the things I resented. That night I slept. Was there something I lost due to my selfish decisions? You bet! Every WW has something that is more precious than, perhaps, she even realized........until she loses it.

[hoosjim]

Yes, it is vitally important that the couple does not buy into the reset button lie. In order for the M to stand a chance of surviving and thriving.......she has to go through the process. Otherwise, she continues to be a wayward wife.........and the results will rear its ugly head in a matter of time.

Sandi, excellent insights as always, thanks, and I pretty much completely agree. I of course understand the importance of (once piecing) building positive memories and taking time to have fun, etc., but... all that seems to me like it is a waste if it is done before all the hurtful stuff is worked out. How can you ever trust the "good stuff" or the "happy part of your life together" if there is still that mistrust and hurt and negativity floating around that never got resolved?

My one conundrum now is how to close that loop with my W. I could have completely gone dark, dropped rope, etc. in the aftermath of the last betrayal/revelation (when I found her second burner phone and she spilled her guts), and I did, after a fashion, for about a week. During that time, she became very sad, weepy, constantly contacting me, expressed her sorrow repeatedly, wanted to try to "figure us out", volunteered some transparency, etc., and to all appearances has cut contact with OM (finally) and is a mopey, moody person now to boot. (Still frequent contact with the extremely bad influence bff, though, although there has been no enablement or go-betweening with OM that I can discern, and I have checked a couple of times.) At the end of that week, I let myself get drawn into two "MR" conversations with her, where I told her if she was serious about wanting to "work things out" that there were a few things I "needed", including some concrete assurance of NC with OM, confirmation that her burner phone had been destroyed (she said she would get me the number from bff so I could verify, but has not yet done so and bff has been back stateside for nearly a week-- I have not repeated the request), continued transparency (which she has done, actually, always letting me know where she is, etc.) and a commitment to actually work on our problems-- including getting professional help-- and that, especially under the circumstances, I wasn't going to accept or be satisfied with the status quo and her just "hanging out" with me to "see how that feels."

She actually backpedaled a bit during that last convo, said she was done with OM, but didn't know now if she did in fact want to "work on us" in any organized fashion right now--the constant hard MR conversations were taking a toll on her "psyche"-- but maybe just wanted to hit the reset button and try building some positive momentum and that she was tired of the up-down roller coaster (this was close on the heels of my very ugly confrontation with OM, which we also discussed and which brought a lot of hurt and pain to the surface for both of us.) I suggested, as I have increasingly frequently, that maybe we need some time on our own. Shortly thereafter, she went off to beach by herself for the weekend (not with OM, I checked-- he was here in town) to "clear her head", though she kept in fairly constant text contact with me.

So, now, she's had the "time" she wanted to think. To me, not a lot has changed MR-wise, though it seems likely that the A with the OM is, for the time being, out of the picture, and she does appear willing, and perhaps a little eager, to keep me apprised of her whereabouts-- she's doing it on her own motion, not because I am asking. Still, to me it's not enough and I think we need to change the dynamic. She's been finding ways to spend time with me, on three occasions now since then, and I have not pushed her away and they have been "nice", but, we are not getting anywhere. I probably should not have let myself get sucked into MR convos last week (and was told as much on these boards)but... it happened, so now I have to deal with it. I told her what I needed to continue to "work on us" which, to my mind, is what she is trying to do now, albeit "her way" by avoiding tough MR talks or counseling but instead trying to have nice social interactions with me. So, while I know I am supposed to avoid initiating MR discussion, I kinda feel like I need to say something now to close the loop on this-- She betrayed me previously, has not given me sufficient grounds to trust her since (though she has done a few things), and now seems to just want things to continue in the status quo without making any efforts to work through our problems. I had posted some ideas about how to approach this at the end of my previous thread, and had gotten feedback ranging from "Just tell her you need some time to yourself" to "Go ahead and tell her you enjoy hanging out with her but that you're not getting what you told her you were going to need and that you don't want to keep pretending to be a couple if you're not".

Do you have any specific thoughts on this? At the very least, I am going to tell her that I am just not interested in hanging out with her socially under the current circumstances.

[hoosjim]

Or, do I say nothing and just pull waayyyy back? Remain cordial when I see her in morning and evening, tell her when I'm going out but not where (this dicey though since she is sharing all such info with me), absolutely don't invite her out (I did actually go out on my own Saturday and definitely annoyed but also intrigued her, she texted me constantly) and tell her I need my " me time" if she shows up, respond only sparingly to calls texts, and only have R talk if she starts and then only listen? At some point even then I feel like I'd have to say "you're not giving me what I need", and I know damned well I'd have to answer her questions about what's wrong and why we're not hanging out.

Also, kind of interesting(?) tidbit: my own best friend (separated H of my W's wayward bff, who,supposedly "shares everything" with him) tells me that according to his W, MY W tried to kiss her (and no friendly little peck) a few weeks back when they were out. Now, my wife, as I now know, is a very sexual person, but has never shown any proclivities "that way". For my part, just trying to deal with the concept that I may have driven my W to lesbianism. :-/

[Zues126]

When I used to train sales I told my team that the worst thing in the world was a 'maybe'.

New guys would think that if a 'yes' is good, and a 'no' is bad, then a 'maybe' is somewhere in the middle. It's not a yes, but hey, at least it's not a no, right?

Wrong. A no lets you move on to new customers. A no frees up your time and attention to find new opportunities. Maybes bog up the pipeline and like weeds choking out flowers will kill your garden.

If there's one thing I hate it's this conversation which gets played out a million times a day: "Hello, is Mr. Smith there? Hi, it's Jim with ABC company. How are you today? Great. Say, I'm just following up on the conversation we had the other day. You said you wanted some time to consider things. Have you had a chance to think it over? I see. OK, not a problem. I'll call you back in a week. Let me know if you want to move forward. Bye!" Repeat and repeat until they stop taking calls and returning messages. I can't stand it. It is absolutely ineffective. There are reasons to follow up with customers, but this isn't the right approach (in my opinion).

OK, so moving to your marriage. Looks like you got a big 'maybe'. I'm not dismissing some of the things that she has done such as the increased communication around whereabouts and the NC with OM. But this is a long ways away from saying that she is committed to the marriage, acknowledging that she made a horrible mistake and is sorry for the pain she caused, and is prepared to follow your lead and get professional help to better understand how to begin to discuss moving forward. To me it sounds more like something went wrong with OM and now she wants to avoid consequences while she hangs out with her Devil-BFF, sipping wine and living vicariously through her, waiting to see if you'll start to look as attractive as the adventurous greener grass, or if something else (or someone else) comes along that looks greener.

I'm not suggesting you walk, move out, file, lob out ultimatums, or anything like that. But I would ABSOLUTELY detach and understand that you are in the same spot as when she was with OM minus the OM.

I also wouldn't SAY anything to her. I think relationship talks are worse than pointless. They not only don't accomplish anything positive and only add pressure to the relationship and make the grass appear browner, but they also show an unwillingness to enforce consequences. At some point when people show that they don't care what you have to say you can't keep talking to them. You have to ACT. I'm not saying you need to do something to control her or manipulate her. But look at it this way- whatever you want to say to her, think about how you'd respond if she said "Sorry LBH, I don't give a rats behind". If this would provoke an action response, well, in my mind just go ahead and do that action and skip the whole R talk which is just as pointless as my above follow up call example. She isn't listening to your words, she is watching your feet (if she's watching at all).

So- bottom line- drop the rope, detach, learn how to read the scoreboard and recognize that it's BFF 1 and marriage 0 right now, and decide what you want to do from here.

For me personally it is a big deal that there was someone else. If it had just been her questioning the marriage to you and talking with her BFF I could accept limbo. Once she's broken her vows then I think it is a totally different situation. When someone does something that wrong if there response is anything short of 'how can I make this right' I couldn't accept that. You could stay in limbo for a number of years while she throws you little scraps of hope to make it look like "I am making progress, just give me time". Pass. I'm out. When you've made the minimal progress I'd need to see then we can meet at a counselors office to begin to talk about whether we both feel like re-examining our marriage depending on where we are at that time. But you'll have to call me at the new phone number because I'm outta here. (And I wouldn't say that either. I'd just pack up and go.)

Yeah, people say not to move out, talk to a lawyer, etc. You do what you want. But I did move out and I am so darn glad I did. As nightmarish as BD and D was I'm grateful that it died a relatively quick and clean death. The grieving and fallout was horrible but it was more like dying in an explosion as opposed to being buried alive.

Good luck my friend and hang in.

[sandi2]

I of course understand the importance of (once piecing) building positive memories and taking time to have fun, etc., but... all that seems to me like it is a waste if it is done before all the hurtful stuff is worked out. How can you ever trust the "good stuff" or the "happy part of your life together" if there is still that mistrust and hurt and negativity floating around that never got resolved?

To you it may seem like a waste of time, but to me it makes a lot more sense to work on the friendship and have light hearted, enjoyable family activities to relieve some of the stress after an agreement to reconcile the M has been made and both spouses are willing to do the work...............rather than doing those things before any type of reconciliation efforts have been established. This is with the understanding that the couple will use some form of therapy (MC, retreats, programs, etc) while they are piecing. Therefore, the couple is addressing the issues in their M and learning how to resolve them. The hurt and mistrust you speak about are some of those special issues that usually requires professional guidance. The couple who sits down to have a R discussion with the expectation of resolving their previous and current issues without any outside help........stand a bigger risk of not making it, IMHO.

Jim, I see you and the W basically repeating the same behaviors. I think I have answered your question about trust several times, so I won't go into it again, except to say that is the importance of transparency and having therapy, etc. R talks don't really do enough to heal.

Here's the thing. Your W is still carrying your b@lls around in her purse. You tell her you will need more evidence of this or that........but she does things in "her own way". That should never be acceptable to a H who is coming to this board getting the tools you have. She has never given a clear yes or no about anything that said she was cooperating and was willing to do what you needed to heal. But you come post and use terms such as "to all appearances". You used similar wording the other time you tried to convince yourself she was in NC with OM.

She never gives you solid proof the first burner or the second one is truly destroyed. She uses childish antics or just out & out lies to your face, and you let it go......still trying to convince yourself she is "in all appearances" making some sort of effort....."in her own way". Again, Jim, You are the one with the frickin tools! Why is she calling the shots? I'll tell you why. It's b/c you allow her to do it in her own wayward style. Which is not acceptable. Why? B/c she is the one that's wayward, and you aren't, so you should tell her how it's going to be. She has done nothing that I can see shows any sincerity of even wanting to consider working on the MR. In fact, she wants anything ........but.
She looks sad, maybe sheds a few tears, gets moody, and upset that OM was maybe hurt, sends you several texts, and shows up at your favorite bar looking hot. Yep, she's still playing.

I have not repeated the request), continued transparency (which she has done, actually, always letting me know where she is, et

No, she is not being transparent. She is telling you what she wants you to know. The real truth is on the phone to which you have no access.

I wasn't going to accept or be satisfied with the status quo and her just "hanging out" with me to "see how that feels."

In the first place, she's temp checking you. In the second place....I think of the verse that says you strain at a gnat but swallow a camel. Look, you are the one who invited her to your watering hole, and now you don't like it? I would think you should be more upset at how she skirts around the things she doesn't want to do..........like making a commitment to do whatever is necessary to save her M. You can tell her you don't want her showing up at your truff, but it will just make you look like a jacka$$. She'll just get mad and use against you. If you are going to make her angry, why not go all the way and put your foot down about the big issues............instead of this petty stuff.

So, now, she's had the "time" she wanted to think

Time is a game for WW's. They always need more time. And if the H has tells her she has till midnight to call with her decision, she'll keep him waiting until the next day after the deadline. By then, he's so happy to hear from her.......and she has him right where she wants him.......in the palm of her hand. Naturally, she tells him if she had to give an answer on how she feels right now, then she'd have to say no. But maybe if she had more time, her feelings would change. Nope! B/c it can't can be a decision based on the feelings of a WW! It has to be based on the right thing to do.

Or, do I say nothing and just pull waayyyy back? Remain cordial when I see her in morning and evening, tell her when I'm going out but not where (this dicey though since she is sharing all such info with me), absolutely don't invite her out (I did actually go out on my own Saturday and definitely annoyed but also intrigued her, she texted me constantly) and tell her I need my " me time" if she shows up, respond only sparingly to calls texts, and only have R talk if she starts and then only listen? At some point even then I feel like I'd have to say "you're not giving me what I need", and I know damned well I'd have to answer her questions about what's wrong and why we're not hanging out.

See, this is why your situation has become so complicated, b/c you did not follow through the boundary, then you didn't follow through with the stipulations you required from her, .......and she still is not held accountable. That's the game she plays.......and, it appears that you play it, too. Actually, I don't think your suggestion above will serve you very well at this point. B/c you can't expect her to be transparent while you refuse to give her details about your activities. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander!

tells me that according to his W, MY W tried to kiss her (and no friendly little peck) a few weeks back when they were out. Now, my wife, as I now know, is a very sexual person, but has never shown any proclivities "that way". For my part, just trying to deal with the concept that I may have driven my W to lesbianism

Well, I'm no authority along those lines, but I highly doubt you can "drive" your W to lesbianism. Don't get distracted by something BFF told her ex-h.....knowing he would probably tell you.

[hoosjim]

To you it may seem like a waste of time, but to me it makes a lot more sense to work on the friendship and have light hearted, enjoyable family activities to relieve some of the stress after an agreement to reconcile the M has been made and both spouses are willing to do the work

I think you misunderstood me. This^^^ is the sentiment I was trying to convey, not that it would ALWAYS be a waste of time, but that it would be without a commitment to solve the underlying problems. Once a couple is working on the hard issues, I DO (as does the MC we have consulted) think it is extremely important to start building positive moments/memories together so it is not ALL painful drudgework. (FWIW, the MC, about whom I know you have doubts, is also one of the chorus of voices hollering at me that "your W is NOT ready" for counseling or other MR building).

She has done nothing that I can see shows any sincerity of even wanting to consider working on the MR. In fact, she wants anything ........but.

Yes, you are right. In the days immediately following the last revelation, she appeared very remorseful and talked like someone who wanted to do whatever it took to "make this right" (though she did not use those words.) And I gave her parameters under which I would work to, as she said, "figure things out with us". She has not, of course, done any of those things other than some of the already described efforts at transparency and, assuming she is in fact not in contact with the OM, by staying away from OM. But she is clearly not "all in" and she is clearly "not ready" to commit to working on us. And there are a couple of other things she has said in the past day or two that make it clear that she is still enamored of the "single girl" lifestyle her friends are leading (or at least that she sees no problem with that lifestyle), though I honestly don't think she sees it as an act of rebellion or anything else "against" me... but clearly somewhat thoughtless and disrespectful, particularly under the circumstances of her infidelity. (When last out with her bff and another single friend, she had a brief but sexually frank discussion with a bartender at a bar who afterward gave her his number-- she told me all of this as if nothing I should be concerned about-- and seemed surprised: "I've never been passed a phone number like that before and never would have thought it would have happened there!")

And, yes, I should have just pulled the plug a few days ago, and I look weak for not doing it, but the pending departure of my son for college at the end of the week and the flare up of my younger son's Tourettes are both really making it difficult for me to toss another grenade into the mix. I am already distancing myself, yesterday and today, and she has noticed (as soon as I start doing this, her texting to me like triples or quadruples), so if she broaches the subject in the next day or two I will tell her where I'm at ("When you came to me after I found the phone and said you wanted to work on us, I gave you parameters under which I would try to do that, but you haven't done those. After the infidelity, I'm not willing to keep hanging out with you pretending we're a couple unless youre committed to rebuilding trust and trying to solve our issues, and if we're going to do that and I am going to trust you it has to be within the bounds I set last week. I'm not willing to keep pretending.") and if she doesn't broach it herself I will prolly wait until S18 is off at college on Saturday and tell her "look, I can't do this anymore."

I appreciate the tough love, and if you have any other thoughts on, tactically, how to save some face and extricate myself from this, I'd love to hear them. Zeus's warning about the perils and uselessness of "R talks" aside, I kinda feel like I need to say SOMETHING to her here... but Im open to alternative viewpoints.

Well, I'm no authority along those lines, but I highly doubt you can "drive" your W to lesbianism. Don't get distracted by something BFF told her ex-h.....knowing he would probably tell you.

^^^ Oh, and FWIW, I meant this more as comic relief (and as another entry in my ever-growing "WTF moment of the day" files) than anything. Certainly not giving it any particular weight other than... WTF?

[Cadet]

As an aside, has the webmaster here ever considered adding an "edit post" feature to the boards?
Seems like it would save you moderators a lot of heartache..

The edit function was in effect for a while but it got abused and was used for TOS violations so it was disabled.
I doubt it is coming back but I am only a moderator.

[hoosjim]

And this is an addendum to my previous response/post...

The more I think about this, and the more I "go through this", the more I think I just won't be able to "Wait" or "make it" through the whole ordeal. I hear you talk about taking two years to come around... I can't make it two more years. Six months has nearly killed me at times-- I'm surprised I've made it that far. Almost certainly wouldn't have without my faith. She's just... under my skin. Always has been. I just buried it for a long while. Even if the A is over... I can't keep half-a$$ing it with her. I need to know we're moving forward or else be done with it. I can't be around her if there is no "us"... and no hope or apparent prospects for "us"... certainly not for two years. Maybe even one more year. It's just not in me. I'm naturally a happy, joy-filled, loving person, and it's killing me to have to keep existing in this limbo, to have her so "near" but at the same time so far away.

And, yeah, I prolly blew it. Shoulda stuck with "shock and awe" when i found the last phone. But... even then, as you note, it could still have taken her a loooong time to fully come around. In two years, I'm pretty sure I'm not still going to be "around." Don't know that i can be and still be "me"... or at least the "good" happy me that people (including myself) would want to be around. Just add it to my list of eff-ups that includes the horrific neglect that allowed her to get to this spot in the first place.

I really, really wish there were some way to reach out to, like, well EVERYONE everywhere... married couples... and impart on them the importance of taking care of and nurturing your relationships. Not taking them for granted. Showing your mate how much they mean to you. Making the time and effort to keep romance and love and mystery alive. And while we're at it find some way to dampen the scourge of cell phones and social media that seem to be such a big drag on the development and maintenance and protection of true, interpersonal relationships. If things don't work out in my MR... heck, even if they do, I want to find a way to help others avoid what I and so many others here are going through.

Sorry for the downer post. It's a tough morning.

[Holding]

Jim, I don't mind a downer post. I've certainly indulged in a few myself Sometimes we get down, and this is probably the best place for those emotions to go.

Like you, my sitch has made me feel like I need to impart to people the importance of nurturing a M. I always say encouraging things to my friends about their R's after they listen to my problems. I tell them to cherish what they have.

No one can say if you'll be able to "wait" or "make it" except you. What do you mean when you say she's always been under your skin?

[hoosjim]

What do you mean when you say she's always been under your skin?

I mean i probably love her in an unhealthy way. Not in a "we both bring our awesome selves to this relationship" way but in an "i really, really, really am infatuated with you and feel i need you in my life" way. She was, as i like to say, the "Girl of My Dreams". My first and only "true love" (assuming it was that) who "rescued" me from a life of selfishness/womanizing/etc and led me to understand what it was like to love and be loved in a romantic relationship. She was... perfect (for me, at least). I still struggle to see her any other way even though I know that she has changed into this wayward person and that she has hurt me so badly. I want back what she was but... ain't happening. At least not anytime soon.

She wants to just wave a magic wand and make all the bad/hard stuff go away, and then, if she is going to be "happy" with me, for the wand to get waved again to make her fall passionately in love with me again... or for it to just "fall out of the sky." Aint happening either... but she doesn't understand that. Maybe cant understand it.

I just don't have the stamina for the uncertainty any longer. If we were working towards something together, I could do it. But that's not the case, and don't know if it ever will be.

[OwnIt]

Jim, the problem with not knowing if you can make it is that you are waiting for her instead of living. If you would let go and move forward with your life you wouldn't be waiting for anyone. You just might end up at the same corner both heading in the same direction at some point in the future.

It's good you realize the unhealthiness of the attachment, now do something about it.

[hoosjim]

If you would let go and move forward with your life you wouldn't be waiting for anyone.

When we were dating, many many moons ago, we had an "apart" period where she pulled back and broke things off between us-- she had issues even back then, was just coming out of another painful relationship, etc. I "moved on" after a fashion, but our paths still crossed from time to time (we lived only three blocks apart, frequented some of the same establishments, and she worked at a sportsmedicine clinic where I was patient-- actually where we met.) So, she had the opportunity to see me "getting on with my life" even though we weren't married, and her friends all liked me and some kept in touch with me, but... It was, up until now, the hardest 7 months of my life. She would call me from time to time, or our paths would cross and "things" would be friendly/cordial, so I never completely "gave up hope", but i WAS moving on. At that time, of course, I was single, with few responsibilities, a much larger and more active social/support network, and just a lot more "free", so... alot easier to move on. And, lo and behold, a miracle. She DID "come back" to me. All on her own, and I knew it was "real."

Now, all of those memories/feelings/whatever--at least on her end-- are gone. Done. I don't think I can wait around for so many more months (and certainly not years) hoping she comes around. And that hurts. I am really struggling with reconciling the concept of "giving her up" and "not caring" whether or not she comes back and then having a healthy relationship if she ultimately DOES come back. At that point, won't I just be like "Meh. Whatever." I mean, who wants that?

It's just all so messed up.

[Zues126]

Yes. BD is an irrecoverable loss.

The LBS wanting the WAS to return is still longing for the loss to never have occurred. They are so eager to avoid the depths of the grieving that they can't help but settle for something that gives the appearance of R. Even a wayward cake-eating spouse that isn't recommitted to the relationship talks and walks like the person they used to know so they cling to that. It reminds me of 'pet cemetery' when they reanimate the bodies of their lost loved ones who come back 'different'.

From what I've seen the marriage really is over at BD and there is no undoing that loss or avoid the grieving process. The LBS must move on and rebuild their life. There is always the possibility that the WAS goes through some type of growth and that they cross paths again in the future and cautiously rebuild some type of relationship. But much more often they never look back, or they only have pangs of regret 10-20 years later in their next marriage. Life is tragic and just because the loss of a love is tragic doesn't mean that it can't happen to us.

But in the end pretending that the loss isn't total doesn't change the reality. This may not be something you can decide for your heart. There will be a million little wake up calls that show you that things aren't how they should be until you realize this current situation isn't your marriage. You can't rush your feelings. But you do get to decide what choices you make. And you can make choices that will allow you to move forward and find peace more quickly.

I'm sorry again for your loss.

[Cadet]

From what I've seen the marriage really is over at BD and there is no undoing that loss or avoid the grieving process. The LBS must move on and rebuild their life.

YES - it is over at BD.

You must figure out how to build a new healthy marriage,
with two healthy people.
Not one or two broken people.

Your job is to make yourself healthy

[hoosjim]

Zues--

Thanks for the sentiments but, dang! You almost make it sound as if apart from the personal growth and health angle that DB-ing is close to a hopeless sham. I am familiar with the concept that all counselor's and marriage gurus "have a losing record", but you really make it sound bleak!

I tend to think that there is generally more hope than that, even where an A is involved, at least from what I have read and heard... I just doubt my own willingness/ability to stick it out through what it might take to come through that in my own situation. It's been seven months now and we are only now at the point where my W seems willing to give up the A/OM (and that's even presuming she actually has.) Now, presumably, would be several months of affair grieving, followed by a painful journey through counselling of who knows how long, dredging all of that old stuff up. I am sure there are iron-willed people who can do that and who do do that and who come out with a new and even better marriage-- I just know if I could be one of them.

And all of this recognizing that on some level you need to be able to "move forward" with the knowledge that your own particular MR may never be reconstituted.

[Coconut]

Jim,

I feel like each of your threads are mirror images of each other. For Months, everyone has been telling you to stop focusing on her and focus on yourself. Now your saying that you don't know if you could take the time it may take to save your M. I wonder if you feel like that because you haven't moved forward on your own journey.

You're 7 months into this sitch and you don't seem any closer to being independent than when I first started posting on your threads. Now you think your going to be done before you actually try what everyone is suggesting, and that is follow your own path and focus on you.

I tried to go back and find the first post where I told you that I recommended you get your own space, so that you can detach and start moving forward, otherwise this sitch is just going to go on and on and on and on... But when I went back through your posts over the last couple of months, I realized that's been the only theme.

Dude, move out or not, doesn't matter. But stop focusing on what she's doing, and start focusing on you. What would you do tomorrow if you got D from her today? Go do that, don't wait until your beaten down, feeling helpless, and there's no hope of reconciliation.

You've been having R talks with her for months, you've been stating boundaries for months, you've tried every trick in the DB book, but you've never meant any of it. Just stop trying tricks, and start moving forward on making it real, find a life for yourself. Try mentally Divorcing her before there is no hope of reconciliation. Each time you don't enforce a boundary, each time you bring up a R talk, you are making this more and more difficult to save. Start by saving yourself before you try saving your marriage.

[hoosjim]

You're 7 months into this sitch and you don't seem any closer to being independent than when I first started posting on your threads.

Actually, FWIW, i'm personlly/emotionally/mentally in a MUCH better place than I was 7 months ago. Seven months ago I was a wreck. Wasn't even sure how I would "go on." My physical health wasn't so hot, either. I had virtually no "active" friends, felt completely isolated and alone, had no desire to even get out of bed, let alone go do anything. Now, i am as physically fit, probably moreso, than at any time in the past 25 years, am taking care of myself probably better than at any time since I met my W. I have reconnected with friends, established some "hangouts" of my own, rediscovered my faith (and found a new church, to boot), and ventured into some new hobbies/activities. i KNOW i will "survive" and even thrive and be okay.

But that doesn't erase the pain of loss of my W. Is that pain, and the inability to disconnect from it, holding me back from reaching my full potential? Perhaps to even probably. But I'm not sure I can just put that away or completely compartmentalize it. I can go forward with my life, still experiencing that pain, and hoping that at some point there might be a resolution. I definitely recognize that when I am off "doing my own thing" i dwell on the situation far less and feel significantly more fulfilled/happy than when I am doing nothing.

The solution if there is to be one is likely to be a simple "I can't do this anymore, we need to be apart for now". I've sort of lost the initiative on "I want you to move out" at this point, though.

[Zues126]

Zues--

Thanks for the sentiments but, dang! You almost make it sound as if apart from the personal growth and health angle that DB-ing is close to a hopeless sham. I am familiar with the concept that all counselor's and marriage gurus "have a losing record", but you really make it sound bleak!

I tend to think that there is generally more hope than that, even where an A is involved, at least from what I have read and heard... I just doubt my own willingness/ability to stick it out through what it might take to come through that in my own situation. It's been seven months now and we are only now at the point where my W seems willing to give up the A/OM (and that's even presuming she actually has.) Now, presumably, would be several months of affair grieving, followed by a painful journey through counselling of who knows how long, dredging all of that old stuff up. I am sure there are iron-willed people who can do that and who do do that and who come out with a new and even better marriage-- I just know if I could be one of them.

And all of this recognizing that on some level you need to be able to "move forward" with the knowledge that your own particular MR may never be reconstituted.

Sorry man, don't mean to be a wet blanket. I think my real point wasn't about statistics, but rather about approach. Namely that what I believe is the right road forward is to accept the loss and start rebuilding your life independent of WW. As opposed to hanging around and hoping for a miracle so you don't have to walk the hard road in front of you. It turns out that waiting for a miracle is a hardest road of all. And it also turns out that it has the least likelihood of resulting in a recovered relationship.

[Zues126]

I also think that notion that you can't wait it out is related. It's like "Hey, I'll give you a shot post A with this marriage as long as you come back in time for me to avoid the loss of my marriage and the grieving, but if I have to suffer that loss and rebuild my life anyway I'm not getting back into bed with a two timing snake!"

The hope of avoiding loss is the lever WW's use to control the LBS.

[sandi2]

I hear you talk about taking two years to come around... I can't make it two more years.

"Come around"? Listen carefully. It did not take two years for me to end the A. It did not take two years for me to commit to staying in my M. So, not sure how you mean "to come around", but I was explaining how long it took me to finally feel remorse. I had carried resentment in my heart for more years than I'm willing to tell. As I have said so many times, the WW has a process, or transformation, she must go through, and not every one takes the same amount of time. It begins with her decision to do the right thing. But that's just one step. It's a great step........but she has more to take. Are you thinking you cannot stay with her if she doesn't go through the entire process at once? Would you see her ending the A as "coming around"? ...........or are you referring to her entire transformation?

Have I not told you before that she would not likely bounce right back into being 100% her old self? Look, she can make the decision to end her A and stay in the M...........but her feelings for you may need time to catch up. It took me so long to get through the withdrawals and then I was depressed for months. (Had the depression before the A, too). However, I was in the M and was showing respect for my H. We were getting along. In other words, my outward waywardness behavior had stopped, and I was working on the thoughts and feelings. The last part to overcome was that part that had been in my heart the longest...........resentment. If my H would have cooperated in us going to MC, I doubt seriously that it would have taken that long for me to "come around".

[hoosjim]

Look, she can make the decision to end her A and stay in the M...........but her feelings for you may need time to catch up. It took me so long to get through the withdrawals and then I was depressed for months. (Had the depression before the A, too). However, I was in the M and was showing respect for my H.

As you so accurately note, my W has still not decided to stay "in the M"... and I anticipated that this was a strong possibility even if the A was ended (and assuming in fact it is ended, which i understand is not a slam dunk.) Even my MC/IC has said that my W, at least as of our last session over 3 weeks ago, "is not ready to work on the MR" and was doubtful she was ready to "fully give up the relationship with the OM" based on her concern for OM being "hurt". The best my W has said is "I'm still here, aren't I" and that she wants to see if we can build some good memories... but we've already hashed all of that out and I agree completely that it is not "enough".

Q is, how do I deal with this now? It's more likely than not she has ended the A. There's a thousand little things and I know her better than anyone, even better now since surveilling her for weeks, and I believe she probably has. At least for now. Irrevocably and forever? Idunno. It's been three weeks. And bff is a bad influence. Who's to say? I gave her a pass on calling OM in my presence and then made that possibility OBE by confronting him myself. The burner phone she says she tried to get the number from bff but bff had deleted all records of it (conveniently, I know, but wouldn't surprise me as bff is a serial cheater herself) and she has no other purchase or other records of phone-- cash purchase. As for the first burner... no, she never "brought it to me" herself, but I did see the shattered remains of it in her purse and have the actual records on that phone and have confirmed it is out of commission. Still don't know why she never actively showed it to me when she broke it up but... whatever. Lingering rebellion, maybe? She told me one of her feelings when doing it was "Okay fine, Eff you, I'll get rid of it." This was a couple of months back, recall. But what's happening now feels different. Perhaps not enough, but different. I should have stuck to my original stance and kept telling her I didn't want her here... but I didn't. And now, if she is NC-ing... is turning her away or trying to force her out the best thing to be doing?

Anyway, A or no A, she is still "not all in", doesn't want to resume counselling (which I consider essential but which I also understand as one of the standard DB principles you shouldn't push/force on a WAS), and passed on the two biggest opportunities to show me her trustworthiness/loyalty (calling OM and giving me 2nd burner phone). She's also clearly somewhat attracted to the fun, free, single girl lifestyle her bff and another divorced friend are leading. In other words, I don't feel like I can trust her fully and don't feel like she's in a place where I necessarily want to be investing time in the MR. But seems like I've lost the initiative on "kicking her out", and if she's truly NC-ing, maybe that's not appropriate anyway. I clearly need to back way the eff off somehow, though.

You're right that I have needlessly complicated this.

Any merit to the idea of treating this is a straight DB-ing sitch with a WAS at this point? Laying back, playing it cool and confident, not pursuing or forcing MR talks... but without the move out? Cuz I don't think she moves out at this point without me, on some level, getting harsh with her, and not sure at all that I want to be the one to move out of my own home. Certainly no consequences there for her other than losing me (though that is a much bigger loss now than it was a few months back--apparently she speaks pretty highly of me to her friends these days). I've toyed with the idea of just packing my truck and camping out (I love camping) for a week or so once the kid is off at college.

Open to suggestions. And I have to admit that I find the cacaphony of voices on this site confusing at times. I recall Cadet posting somewhere early in the newcomer's threads something to the effect that "you will hear a lot of advice and ideas on here and not are all completely consistent with DB-ing. DB-ing is bringing more love into your marriage, things that are more selfishly oriented are not DB-ing." I know WWs are a special case, but there are different shades of thinking amongst many posting on my thread, and some seem to veer a little towards a "selfish" bias at times. Certainly folks that have had a harder time with their spouses seem to espouse (no pun intended) a "harder line". Please don't anybody get me wrong, I am appreciative of all the input here, and am shamefaced at the way I have obviously effed all of this up to some degree. Am still willing to hear input on all of this.

[hoosjim]

And, yes, to all here watching, I totally get the importance of "doing me." I actually think I am "doing me" pretty well these days. Just need to figure out where the line of demarcation is between "me" and "her". Even if i completely end all interaction with her... then there is some interaction involved in doing that, get it? Just trying to figure out the best way to handle that... because there are multiple ways to go about it and I have already botched this pretty badly in terms of how I have interfaced with her...

[25yearsmlc]

There are a few possibilities w/ the same underlying premise -

- What if the way for you to rebuild something with your w is to admit that this marriage is gone and let her go in order for her to discover what she has lost...?


Or
maybe you can co-exist under the same roof but learn to detach.

Both of these^^ mean you stop focusing on her and stop trying to control the outcome. Your posts have the theme of " W did/said this and then she said XYZ" and how you feel about this. Your posts are reactive.


BTW, yes there is a paradox inherent in DBing. On one hand, people come here to help save their sanity/hearts and to save their marriages. So in a way - they are all trying to affect the outcome. That is why I posted the lines from Swingers.


At the very core of this site is the desire to live more authentically, to stop letting fear or selfishness dictate our behavior.

No more staying stuck, no more resisting change, or pretending not to notice red flags,
We need to become our best selves.

The irony is that we have to be our best self to have a healthy happy marriage,

but we do not need the happy marriage to become our best self.

You have tried to remain under the same roof and it has Not improved anything.

I think you could feel/project more self confidence and start to heal without the constant monitoring of your w's behavior, and the self doubt it creates.

[Coconut]

Jim,

It's not about abandoning or punishing your wife.. You can detach from her, find a life of your own, without it being a negative toward her. It's not about treating her a certain way, it's about taking care of yourself, treating yourself well, enjoying yourself, and not tying everything you do to her. You are allowed to have, even encouraged to have, a life of your own. Doesn't mean she will always be excluded from that life, it just means that you have a life whether she participates in it or not..

Read TexasHubby thread, it's the best descriptive I've seen regarding getting a life while living with uncommitted spouse.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2748478&page=all

[Rose888]

As you pointed out, there are a lot of different opinions on the board. You seem paralyzed by the variety, and yet you consistently ask for people to weigh in.

I have a strong opinion about what you should do, but I don't think another opinion will help.

I think the important thing is for you to make a decision and then stick with it long enough to see what effect it has. And that means not constantly thinking about it and monitoring but telling yourself you'll evaluate in a month and then not even looking at the evidence until then.

[Ginger1]

Jim, the interesting thing here is you say it could get confusing with the cacophony of advice. But where I stand everyone is telling you the exact same thing.

This isn't exactly a comparison, but I am going to tell you what helps me not think about the other person.

My exH is a while other story. but I have been seperated/divorced for 9 years and I've been in the dating game.

I had a seriously hard time getting over my last boyfriend. We dated for a short period of time, but I thought he had serious potential to be the one. We broke up for obstacles that couldn't be overcome (him wanting kids in 5 years, me being too old in 5 years). Anyways, he got a new gf right away. I saw it on FB via his sister. I was devastated. So what did I do? I blocked him on FB, I blocked the GF on FB and I unfollowed his sister so I don't get surprise pictures I am not prepared for.

Now I compare this to the last guy I had loved before him. He was a friend of a friend so I knew a lot about him and his new GF and it was very hard for me to move on.

My point being..... without a commitment to working on the M which she CLEARLY hasn't given you, you need to just not pay attention to any of the going on's in her life. You need to have no clue with what's going on between her and BFF or OM. You need to block all your access to that information which can give you the chance to speculate. You need to take her completely off your radar and focus only on yours.

UNTIL....... she has both feet in piecing the R. Until then it only keeps you stuck and spinning if you know what's going on in her life. I would block her on social media and actually restrict all access to whatever she is doing. It will give you peace and the ability to take your focus way off of her.

It is working much better for me, I can tell you that. My ex and I separated in 2008, the year FB came to life. Both him and I took a while to join but his AP was on, and I would go and torture myself. I stopped eventually. Ex and I have a civil R and me and his AP even have a civil R now, but no, I will never friend them. My exH's crazy sister from AZ tried to friend me and I kindly told her I didn't think it was a good idea because I just didn't feel like seeing pictures of my D, ex and his OWW. (I was just getting to a good place at this point, and I didn't need a setback). She understood.

Self-protection is the most important thing you can do for now. If a time comes where you need transparency or some snooping abilities, then resume. But right now, I think it is the last thing you need.

[sandi2]

Quote:

Look, she can make the decision to end her A and stay in the M...........but her feelings for you may need time to catch up. It took me so long to get through the withdrawals and then I was depressed for months. (Had the depression before the A, too). However, I was in the M and was showing respect for my H.

As you so accurately note, my W has still not decided to stay "in the M"... and I anticipated that this was a strong possibility even if the A was ended (and assuming in fact it is ended, which i understand is not a slam dunk.)

I was trying to explain that she could make the decision to do the right thing, and it could start the transformation of restoring loving feelings. But you are correct, she is giving unclear answers........b/c it has worked for her previously. If she rides the fence and gives you answers that really say nothing at all...........then she is not trying to do the right thing. She's trying to figure out how to keep one foot in the M and one foot in the singles lifestyle. By saying, "I am here, aren't I", is what she said last time while she continued her A. So, Is she saying she is still at this resident, but she'll live however she wants? Is that same response adequate this time around? IDK, that's up to you. You are the one living in this situation. I can give you my thoughts about it, but the choices are always your own.

Q is, how do I deal with this now? It's more likely than not she has ended the A. There's a thousand little things and I know her better than anyone, even better now since surveilling her for weeks, and I believe she probably has. At least for now. Irrevocably and forever? Idunno. It's been three weeks. And bff is a bad influence. Who's to say?

Yes indeed, the BFF is a terrible influence. The danger now, is your W behaving like GGW to match her idol's (BFF) lifestyle. Jumping from one man to a string of ONS's is certainly not the path you want her to take.......but that decision is up to her. Currently, you are sounding as if you feel defeated. However, I think you are in a position of strong influence. Maybe not easy........but strong. This can be a crossroads for your W. If she chooses to follow her BFF's example, you probably won't see much improvement in your MR...........unless she gets her eyes open and sees how that influence is harming her MR. What can you do about it? That's entirely up to you.

This is only a suggestion, and I am not twisting your arm. Taking a couple of weeks to camp out, may be good for you, Jim. I love nature, too, and it has a way of clearing my mind to see things in better perspective. You have been under great stress for months, so take a break for your health sake. If you decide to go camping, I suggest you tell her something like, "We both have some serious decisions to make, and I need some time away".

If you don't want to engage in a transparency plan, then fine.......toss it. You don't have to do it just b/c I recommended it. If your W is not committed, how could you ever trust her to tell the truth? This so-called transparency game she is playing by telling you where she's going is nothing. The H is the one to decide the plan. If the W doesn't want to cooperate, then he can decide if he wants to stay with a cheater.

I should have stuck to my original stance and kept telling her I didn't want her here... but I didn't. And now, if she is NC-ing... is turning her away or trying to force her out the best thing to be doing?

Ordinarily I would tell the H to stay, b/c she will need his support while going through withdrawals. However, this is for the W who is serious about saving her M. Not one who wants to take the easy way out and drop a few crumbs here and there to keep the H hanging on. For your W to kick the withdrawals, with the BFF constantly pulling her into the singles lifestyle........would be extroninary, IMHO. It would be like expecting an alcoholic to go through withdrawal while his buddies take him to a bar every night. I'm just saying that your W needs a lot of motivation to change.

Lingering rebellion, maybe?

Why did you think it ever left? The rebellion keeps her from committing to do what is required to save the M.

Anyway, A or no A, she is still "not all in", doesn't want to resume counselling (which I consider essential but which I also understand as one of the standard DB principles you shouldn't push/force on a WAS),

Oh.................I see where you are going with this.

Any merit to the idea of treating this is a straight DB-ing sitch with a WAS at this point? Laying back, playing it cool and confident, not pursuing or forcing MR talks... but without the move out? Cuz I don't think she moves out at this point without me, on some level, getting harsh with her, and not sure at all that I want to be the one to move out of my own home. Certainly no consequences there for her other than losing me (though that is a much bigger loss now than it was a few months back

This makes me want to scream and pull my hair out! You are insinuating that you have received advice to not play it cool and to not be confident. How many times were you told to pursue her and to force R talks? Heck, you are the one who is always wanting to talk about things and saying you don't know how not to talk about it. And finally.........who has ever told you to get harsh with her, unless you see standing strong and confident as meaning to be harsh.

Here's the deal. You don't want to move out. And, to save face, you think you have to flip her from a WW to a "straight DB - WAS". B/c right now, having a WAW seems much easier than a WW, and requires no tough love from the LBH. And there's the rub..........the tough love of enforcing boundaries.

Open to suggestions. And I have to admit that I find the cacaphony of voices on this site confusing at times. I recall Cadet posting somewhere early in the newcomer's threads something to the effect that "you will hear a lot of advice and ideas on here and not are all completely consistent with DB-ing. DB-ing is bringing more love into your marriage, things that are more selfishly oriented are not DB-ing." I know WWs are a special case, but there are different shades of thinking amongst many posting on my thread, and some seem to veer a little towards a "selfish" bias at times

Wow! Instead of saying "open to suggestions", why don't you just say who you want to post on your threads? I'm sure nobody wants to confuse you with selfish, biased thoughts. You are a grown a$$ man, for crying out loud! Stop blaming someone else.... or trying to twist things around to match your own inabilities to enforce your boundaries.

[Ginger1]

When you say "selfish bias", do mean "experience"?

Because experience is the best teacher.

[Cadet]

I recall Cadet posting somewhere early in the newcomer's threads something to the effect that "you will hear a lot of advice and ideas on here and not are all completely consistent with DB-ing.
DB-ing is bringing more love into your marriage, things that are more selfishly oriented are not DB-ing."

Love means setting strong boundaries and enforcing them.

Would you let your child jump off a cliff because you did not want to sound harsh by yelling at them to stop?

If I said the above it would be in those terms.

[Tread]

I think most of these concepts are great. But a lot of it is stab in the dark to see what works. Which is why you test something out and reevaluate a few weeks later. Even though some of the advoce contradicts the book at times. For the most part it is great advice, especially from the veterans.

[hoosjim]

Sandi, thanks. Some housecleaning:

Lingering rebellion, maybe?


Why did you think it ever left? The rebellion keeps her from committing to do what is required to save the M.

That's why I said "lingering". As in, it's still there and never left. You and I agree here.

This makes me want to scream and pull my hair out! You are insinuating that you have received advice to not play it cool and to not be confident. How many times were you told to pursue her and to force R talks? Heck, you are the one who is always wanting to talk about things and saying you don't know how not to talk about it. And finally.........who has ever told you to get harsh with her, unless you see standing strong and confident as meaning to be harsh.

This^^^ and the rest below it: Look, I own the fact that I should have followed through in the aftermath of the phone discovery three weeks ago, okay. I GET THAT. I am also not trying to "cherry pick" suggestions... just trying to find as much commonality as I can across them all as well as commonality with my own sitch (which, through my own mistakes, yes, is increasingly unique and difficult). I'm not trying to "get out" of anything or blame anyone else for anything, okay? I'm just trying to salvage the situation as best I can and make sense of everything I am hearing/reading. You have to admit, yes, that while there is an underlying commonality of "We need to be apart for awhile" that there is a whole range of thought on how to do that. One or the other may NOT be the best path for me and my family (I have a severely troubled, near-autistic teenager to think about at the moment in addition to my MR and my WW, remember). I'm not trying to "twist" anything. Far from it. Just trying to choose the best path, and there are very clearly way more than one here, even if limiting oneself to what could loosely be described as the "consensus" on these boards.

Specifics. Yes, I let her off the hook too easily and, yes, allowed myself to get sucked into two MR talks with her and yes tried to move ahead too quickly thinking I could establish paramaters for us to start working things out (which is what she initially said she wanted). The three big ones there were 1) The A/OM was done, COMPLETELY. Any further contact and I file 2) Transparency (I track her phone, she checks in when she's out, her phone is unlocked and, for the record, while it may have been a WEAK transparency plan, I was the one who insisted on the phone tracking and unlocked phone... not her. She was the one who volunteered the "checking in".) 3) We get back in counseling. I also told her that if I was going to stick and give this a shot that WE had to be the priority... not friends, not other family... US... and that, given the history, we would need to talk about how to handle her friendship with bff (I did not demand that it be cut off).

Lets assume #1 is a check and #2 is a check-- the only thing she hasn't done on #2 is find a way to account for that second burner phone and lets assume (I know, I know) that by virtue of the nature of that device and transaction and her sneaky wayward data-deleting bff she actually CANT provide me any accounting for that. Just assume, okay? Even so, at that point in time, however she was only a little less than two weeks into the post-A funk, and almost certainly not ready for all the rest of that (working on the MR) despite what she said. Heck, she's not ready for it now, and, as I indicated, I had significant doubts as to whether or not I should have pushed the counseling. My thought in doing so was that our counselor is pretty hard over that my W needs some individual counseling, which this counselor also does and has had two fairly brief (30 min) sessions with my W solo, and that that might help her (MC has said she has had good success working with women coming off of affairs and working through the addiction withdrawal angle), but... again, W is clearly not ready and seems to pretty demonstrably fear the MC process at this point (painful, will force her to face up to her failings, etc etc). Seems to me from reading through the DB books and listening to folks her that pushing the MC (just like pushing MR talks) is a form of pressure that is not necessarily a good idea. So, important question that I will ask again: Do you think differently? The professional help IS in fact an important even critical component for me at some point, was something concrete i felt I needed and at the time I "insisted" on it I thought it was appropriate to set forth as a condition. Now I am not so sure should have made that demand... especially at that time. Yes, I probably should have held off on all of it and either elected to be there for her until she could work through the post-A funk (assuming I elected to trust her) or else gone ahead and pushed for some sort of separation.

Here's the thing. I think she is really NC with OM right now. I think she is also legitimately trying to find out if she can "have feelings for me" by following me around, hanging out with me, and calling/texting me constantly (A misguided approach, yes, but it is what it is.) Or at least that's what she's convinced herself of. Let me be clear that THIS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME! I recognize that it is not productive and, additionally, not healthful/helpful for ME.

BUT... I have TWO objectives here, and I cannot and will not pretend that I DONT. One is obviously to take care of myself and make a better life for myself and a better person OF myself. Okay, working that, but the MR overlay and attachment to my W is obviously holding me back some. Second is to reconcile with my wife and forge a new relationship IF POSSIBLE.

So: I am not forcing anything until after this weekend when S18 is off to college and S16 starts his next round of therapy.

Thereafter: I have a tension between the importance of being around to be with her through the A withdrawal and the importance of detaching and creating some separation to both improve my mindset and, in the longer term, hopefully draw her towards me. Problem is is that I am not really sure where she is at. I am legitimately concerned about turning her out right now if she is starting to turn towards me--- that's who I WAS before. And, yes, I know that the dynamics now are different because she is a WW but...

Part of me thinks that the best thing for me to do right now in terms of goal #2 would be to be available to her but not TOO available. And, yes, to me that would mean being in the same house but living my own (awesome) life and not pushing any more MR talks with her, separate sleeping arrangements (and, yes, I know that means the dreaded and prolly doomed to failure in-house separation.)

The other part of me thinks: She betrayed me. I told her I wanted her out. She showed initial signs of deep regret/remorse and said she wanted to make it right and work on us but then hasn't followed through and when I gave her parameters (for better or worse) under which I would do that she hasn't indicated an eagerness or even a willingness to undertake all of those. She's also shown a disturbing lack of awareness of the "single girl" dynamic and how that affects the trust equation under the circumstances, and hasn't shown any willingness to either distance herself from bff or discuss that relationship. Given all that, not sure I can trust her and I think it would be good for us to go our separate ways.

Maybe a week or two away would be best for me (and her) to kind of clear our minds. I need to choose a path, and so does she. Ideally, she would choose the path of distancing from the bff and, ultimately, of working more completely on our MR. But she may not. Heck, when I come back I may not want her to.

Should I do or say anything else WRT the bff? I am still not sure she understands the tension that relationship is placing on our relationship... I think she thinks it is all about the OM and now that OM is "out of the picture" she can hang out and interact with bff all she wants. And they are in pretty much constant (daily) contact, at least by phone and text and have had at least one overnight get together a month, at least up through the end of last month (July). I don't think a "choose between me and her" ultimatum would be helpful or productive, but I have already discussed with her twice how she needs to understand that given the history (bff as enabler) that I have a very difficult time trusting that relationship or trusting her when she is out with bff. At the end of the day, were we to be reconciled, I honestly don't have to trust bff... I only have to trust her, but she and I are FAR away from that, currently. I do feel like that relationship (W and bff) would almost have to be put on "hold" at the very least if she and I were ever to productively "work on us", and I honestly don't know if that would ever happen, so joined at the hip are they.

I'm rambling.

Currently, you are sounding as if you feel defeated. However, I think you are in a position of strong influence. Maybe not easy........but strong. This can be a crossroads for your W. If she chooses to follow her BFF's example, you probably won't see much improvement in your MR...........unless she gets her eyes open and sees how that influence is harming her MR. What can you do about it? That's entirely up to you.

In some ways I do feel defeated. So much has been stacked against me. Prolly the only thing leaning my way is W's reluctance to fully abandon her family, her friends, and the way of life associated with her former way of living. She fears losing her kids, she fears losing the love and respect of her parents, she fears what her friends (other than bff and her other single divorced friend) will think, and she fears being "on her own." But there is no love for me there... at least not romantic love... currently, although we have the other elements (friendship, cooperative parenting, etc.) but not the most important element. There's just a barrier there and one that wont be overcome without both of us buying in and working on it. But that barrier is there. God has richly blessed me and I consider myself to be "a catch" and would love my chances with any available woman in my wife's circumstances (notwithstanding her being married, of course) in a vacuum. But we're not in a vacuum. She's mourning a recent affair that most certainly turned her heart (and not just her desires) towards another man, she has a bff who is her closest confidant and most important "support" who is NOT an advocate for our marriage and who leads a very wayward lifestyle.

My sense is that I need her to be "all in" on this... or I cannot be. To me that means, as I told her last week, that WE need to be the priority over everyone else (I did not specifically say she couldn't see bff) and that we need to be seeking professional help. Was that too much, or too little? Sometimes I feel like people are suggesting it needs to be her decision to do these things, and other times I feel like people are suggesting that I lay things like that down as requirements for me sticking around. On some level, they ARE requirements for me sticking around, but do I demand them of her, or just generally tell her "I can't do this, I need you to be committed to this"? Seems to me I have, for better or worse, given her my parameters. If she is not willing I need to pull back and just tell her "I can't do this this way any longer". Maybe that is too much pressure for right now, and maybe I shouldn't have established counseling as a "necessary", but seems to me to save any kind of face that I need to take that stance. And maybe that's the best stance for me to be in, anyways...

A week or so away should help clear my head.

[Coconut]

I was trying to break up your last post and respond to multiple things you said, but I don't think it's helpful at this point.

I'll just say this about your two objectives:

1. You say you need to take care of yourself and make a better life. What are your thoughts on how to do this?

2. Second is to reconcile with your W and forge a new R. What do you think will help you get there, specifically what can YOU (not your WW) do to get there?

[hoosjim]

Coconut. Yes, very rambl-y. sorry. I think it was Jefferson who once said "I'd have written something shorter but I didn't have the time". Typically I am pretty rushed and tend to get kind of stream of consciousness, which I am sure does not help with the dialogue.

Anyhoo:

1) Is easy, though conditional. If W is "all in", then making a better life for me means that I am "all in" and we are doing whatever it takes to work on us. Nothing held back. But we are not there right now. In that case, making a better life for me means doing what I am doing already PERSONALLY plus, I think, distancing myself from the painful dynamic that is my W's current life and her uncertain relationship with me.

2) I have no blinking idea. I really don't. She craves attention, and love, and intimacy, and human contact, and conversation, etc. etc. I don't think it is any coincidence that since she has cut contact with OM and her bff has been somewhat out of touch that she has been constantly contacting me and, when I am unavailable, pretty quickly asking "Where are you where are you where are you?!?!". She was very, very lonely for a very, very long time. Is some of that playing me? Perhaps. But my true, honest, sense is that right now she needs contact and interaction with a friendly face. Necessarily me? Perhaps not. But if I am not "there for her" then I am being the same inaccessible guy I always was before that got me into this mess. Yes, the dynamic is now different. But is she "turning"? I don't know. I think, sadly, that my mishandling of the sitch may have stuck her and us in a place where she was starting to come around but then I jumped too quickly and now we are going to be in the "friend zone."

OTOH, is she still showing signs of "Waywardness"? Yes. She still wants to have nights out with her single (and one clearly wayward) friends, but she has almost a naivite about some of things she does when she's out and about how good she looks and how guys look at her. She doesn't feel pretty, but she is. Very. Which is one way OM got into her life-- managed to feel pretty. But she doesn't really believe it when anyone else tell her. She says she doesn't want sex or physical intimacy with anyone right now (she feels fat). She's also clearly not100% committed to me or to "Saving the MR at all costs." All that speaks to a sitch where I need to be distancing and keeping my distance.

There's a tension WRT #2 that I am having a very difficult time reconciling. And, yes, I completely understand that it is largely of my own making. And I am genuinely sorry for putting everyone on her through so much, after everyone has been so kind and offered up so much help and support and suggestions. I feel like I'm letting down not just myself but the whole community sometimes...



And can I just add something here, in response to something Sandi said: I don't think I have ever, nor would I ever, blame someone here for something that happened with my sitch. A take FULL responsibility for where I am and where I am going. While I do solicit input, the decisions I make and how to proceed with my life are MY OWN. That is one of the key lessons I had already learned, even very early on, when all this blew up on my back in January. So if I have given anyone the impression here that I am holding them responsible for where I am or for my own screw ups... then I apologize. Never my intention.

I appreciate the time and effort that so many people put in here to try to help others. Someday I hope that I am leveled and grounded enough, and experienced enough, to help others as well. But right now I feel like I'm kind of a train-wreck DB-ing wise.

[hoosjim]

Currently, you are sounding as if you feel defeated. However, I think you are in a position of strong influence. Maybe not easy........but strong. This can be a crossroads for your W. If she chooses to follow her BFF's example, you probably won't see much improvement in your MR...........unless she gets her eyes open and sees how that influence is harming her MR. What can you do about it? That's entirely up to you.

And I am really scattershooting here, but... Sandi, what CAN I do about it. I have no control over her. Seems that I can step away, maybe tell her WHY I am stepping away (including my feelings about bff and unwillingness to compete with that), but that's about it. It would REALLY help her to get herself into counseling, but that on some level is entirely up to her. It's like the alcoholic or druggie who wont seek help-- they have to be willing to help themselves.

Thanks again!

[25yearsmlc]

you make this way more complicated than it has to be. Just reading your posts forces readers to go back to an earlier posts to remember what "#1" & #2" are.

And by implication you are suggesting people who post to you might have "selfish anti DB" opinions. And that it's confusing.

I see common themes in 90% of the advice you get, including my own.

I'll say this one last time- your wife has not faced consequences for her A, and probably won't feel any.

That is because you have not enforced any boundaries. And your boundaries are blurred when you see her balk.

She cannot miss you b/c she still has you there. You're not giving her anything to miss.

And I would not monitor any behavior for at least 30 days but I'd aim for 90.

[Coconut]

I asked you what you plan to do to meet YOUR two objectives and your response is what she will need to do for you to be able to meet YOUR objectives. Think about that. If you don’t have control over obtaining your objectives, then I would suggest you figure out new objectives. For example, I wouldn’t say that my goal is to win the lottery, sure I can play the lottery, but I have no control over what balls go into the shoot. If I wanted to get a million dollars, it would be much better to say that I’m going to create a business plan, get a loan or investors, and work my a$$ off to make my business successful.

You say YOU have two objectives, but getting them done ALL depends on your WW actions. I hope you are able to take control of your life as an individual soon, I would hate to still see you here in another year still going in the same circle.

Anyway, I’m going to try this another way (you know what they say about a person who keeps trying the same thing expecting a different result). I went back through your sitch from your first post, and copy and pasted some of your words throughout your sitch that I think you should read and consider what you have tried and if the results have gotten you closer to your goal.

Until someone in your M makes changes, it will continue as it is. It’s often said the WW wants the freedom, but also wants full access to the security of the M and for the spouse to be at their beck and call, so they throw just enough bait to keep them hooked. I wouldn’t expect her to change because she’s happy with the same result over and over.

#2729896 - 02/13/17 12:23 PM
She, while having stepped back a half step from the brink of walking out, says she is conflicted and confused, but still feels a bit like she is trapped and not making any progress. Problem is, she does not want to commit to working on the relationship.

#2740576 - 04/25/17 11:09 AM
W "drew back" from affair for a handful of weeks but now fully "engaged" with OM yet again. I have successfully implemented GAL measures

#2740598 - 04/25/17 12:40 PM
I am very close to putting my foot down and demanding that she cut contact or, if not, we separate (at least "in house.")

#2742840 - 05/10/17 02:31 PM
Trying to decide now WON to try to seek some MC.. she's mentioned but more in the context of box checking and "seeing if I want to try to work on marriage" rather than actually affirmatively "working on marriage."

#2742819 - 05/10/17 12:05 PM
I honestly think that complete distancing, close to the point of going "dark" would be counterproductive. OTOH, she is fairly clearly not interested in me right now...

#2743411 - 05/15/17 11:01 PM
She is out until 5:15 AM, stopping to spend an hour and 15 mins at OMs house

#2743421 - 05/16/17 05:16 AM
And, finally, to color what you tell me (yes, 4th post)... i absolutely 100% AM ready to end my marriage if this A does not stop.

#2744124 - 05/21/17 10:04 PM
Well, she definitely (okay, say 95% chance) saw the OM Friday night on way out of town when she was supposed to be with BFF. Not sure what they did but they met at a bar and there are three and a half unaccounted for hours. There was also a side-trip Saturday, unaccounted for by her

#2744173 - 05/22/17 08:47 AM
Now, she's violated the boundary, and pretty clearly so. I am ready to enforce it, and to end the marriage if necessary. I can't go on like this-- it is just too painful.

#2745702 - 06/04/17 11:29 AM
I have ended up in MC before having regained my wife's interest and before her A with the OM has ended.

#2746815 - 06/14/17 07:22 AM
She says she has been doing a lot of thinking and some reading, and evaluating what she has been doing, and that she was (again) sorry for what she had done in terms of the A with the OM and that she knew that that had hurt me, but that she was trying to be open and explore her feelings towards me, etc. etc.

#2746815 - 06/14/17 07:22 AM
she made one BIG denial that "I have not seen him since _______" which I couldn't stop myself from responding to-- she had seen him for a brief 10 min kissing meet up on Saturday, which I knew about but didn't share other than "I know you saw him at ______ on Saturday morning

#2748339 - 06/26/17 03:04 AM
Now, I am probably not to full "no contact"... though I might be and am at least REALLY close.

#2748594 - 06/27/17 07:32 AM
I get that I can't control her. But if she won't "control herself", then I am free to walk. That was the whole gist of our discussion a week or so ago.

#2750074 - 07/07/17 08:08 AM
In sum, though, her general frame of mind seems to have changed very little and, in fact, I would say she even seemed slightly LESS committed/interested in continuing to work on MR than in previous sessions-- "Not sure I want to keep doing this."

#2750159 - 07/08/17 07:03 AM
But what if, just what if, she is actually maintaining "no contact" right now... which is a pretty significant possibility (though obviously damaged by the fact that she is not going out of her way to be transparent and contrite).

#2750815 - 07/12/17 09:29 AM
Dangit, why did I have to put up surveillance and snoop again? So, come to find out, she downloaded the "Viber" app onto her phone while at the beach with bff, which is a VOIP and also "secret chat" app. Then, I find out from OMs facebook page that he was not only out of town this past week but AT THE BEACH

#2751087 - 07/14/17 02:10 AM
W is really, truly "No Contacting". Can I be 100% certain? No, but, then again, nothing ever is

#2751583 - 07/17/17 02:53 PM
Finally, it sEems likely she was secret chatting on FB messenger with OM. On way back from gym I DM'd my don about college orientation coming up. Noticed wife was "on", which is unusual these days. As lso noticed OM was on.

#2752385 - 07/21/17 05:23 AM
Dang it. I just can't trust her. Maybe I should, but she has definitely not made any sort of rock solid commitment to the MR, and there are just too many doubts on the OM/A front.

#2753329 - 07/26/17 08:16 AM
"Im handling this the best I can... I was getting closer and closer to cold turkey and now I have... You hurt me so badly and I suffered so much for all those years and it has only been these six months for you... I needed to do this MY way, not by your rules (As in my boundary of absolutely no contact), etc. etc."

#2755288 - 08/07/17 03:20 AM
I am becoming more and more convinced that I need to just move on and, if she "comes back", she comes back.

#2756543 - 08/15/17 03:43 AM
In the days immediately following the last revelation, she appeared very remorseful and talked like someone who wanted to do whatever it took to "make this right" (though she did not use those words.) And I gave her parameters under which I would work to, as she said, "figure things out with us". She has not, of course, done any of those things other than some of the already described efforts at transparency and, assuming she is in fact not in contact with the OM, by staying away from OM. But she is clearly not "all in" and she is clearly "not ready" to commit to working on us.


You want to be with her, so you haven’t given up on her even though she has been in an A, if she wants to be with you, do you think she’s going to leave you if you are out finding your happiness, a life that fulfills you?

[Zues126]

Coconut, this was one of the best posts I've ever seen on DB forums. Just wow. It really tells the story.

[Tread]

Coconut,

After reading your post, I'm tempted to go back and read how I've been doing throughout my sitch. Sure we all have been as hopefully and faced constant disappointment from our WS. But I see the point of what you brought up here. All the hoping in the world will not work in regards to the WS, until you are truly ready to get on with your own life.

[Maika]

Coconut - that is amazing. The second best post I've seen after TxHubby's sitch and not counting Sandi's comments. Very eye opening for all our sitch's.

[hoosjim]

Bittersweet, proud moment today. Dropped S18 off at collegend for his first year. Despite his problems (mild reading impediment, anxiety disorder) and ours, he's really soared. Will be studying engineering at a top university, and, more importantly, he's just grown up to be a really good person. We ended up raising a really good kid. Gonna miss the heck outta him. Blessed.

[Coconut]

That's great Jim, there really is nothing like seeing your child being successful at reaching milestones while going after their dreams..

I started writing my son letters after I moved away, honest to goodness hand written letters. It really helps me feel like I'm staying connected with him, allows me to tell him what's going on in my life, my families life and how proud I am of him, without putting any pressure on him to respond. He's mentioned a couple of times how much he enjoys getting the letters.

[Coconut]

Hey Jim, just stopping by to see how things are going.

[hoosjim]

Crappy. I really need to get out of here for a few days. Thought S18 off to college would free me up to do that. Now S16, who has pretty profound Tourette's, almost to the point of seeming autistic sometimes, is at that point again, with school and new counseling starting for him next week. So don't really want to up and walk out, here.

Been hitting gym a little more, listening to a lot of old online sermons from my newly adopted church-- really really helps me when I do that. Keeps me in a much better frame of mind, and looking "forward." My faith has been an ongoing and very important source of support for me.

Meanwhile, W keeps cozying up to me... she is literally doing nothing wrong right now, and keeps seeming gradually "warmer" almost every day. Was going out of her way to joke with me and cheer me up when I was a bit down for a couple of hours after dropping off S18 at school. Reminded me a lot of the person she was at 24 when we met. But I can't trust it and I know I can't trust it.

If kid gets leveled by Saturday/Sunday, I will likely try to pile my gear in the car and get out of dodge for at least a week. I know a few places to camp where I could still have access to a shower and get in to work a couple of days I am gone (I am way short of leave right now and can't just punt work for an entire week). Don't want to bug out on the kid right now, though. He's in a rough spot. Pretty sure his brother going off to school is weighing on him... they were very close and he REALLY looked up to an idolized him. Lost his brother (at least as a constant real-time presence) and his dog (his best friend) within past 2 1/2 months. We'll get him leveled out... we always do, but this one may take a bit of doing since he has been out of counseling for nearly 6 months and has backslid a lot.

[hoosjim]

Oh, and, just so I can keep everyone here frustrated with me since I am not supposed to be worried about such things (but, honestly, this I had to share): Toxic bff may be moving out of state. Like far, far away out of state. This I find out just the day after listening to an online sermon the message of which was "Take care of yourself and YOUR issues and YOUR faith, God will fight the battles FOR you." (Or something like that).

Lord moves in mysterious ways. Sending up more prayers on this one...

[sandi2]

Toxic bff may be moving out of state. Like far, far away out of state. T

That would be fantastic! Although she and your W would probably communicate by phone and email........hopefully, it would taper off. If your W won't try to go spend weekends or have vacations with the BFF, this could definitely be a plus.

[hoosjim]

That would be fantastic! Although she and your W would probably communicate by phone and email........hopefully, it would taper off. If your W won't try to go spend weekends or have vacations with the BFF, this could definitely be a plus.

It would certainly temper if not completely remove a dynamic that is unquestionably a net "negative" for my sitch. It's also thrown my W into another semi-depressive state. Just removing negatives, however, is not going to "fix things."

I have felt reinvigorated the past 24-plus hours. Skipped church for two weeks in a row but "caught up" by listening to podcasts of the sermons past two days at gym. I really think its important (at least for me anyways) to have your thinking/perspective readjusted once a week, and church is my way of doing that. Coming to grips with the possibility of being on my own-- have wonderful kids despite their troubles, friends and family that love me... a lot of blessings to be thankful for and lots ahead of me with or without my W.

[Tread]

Speaking from experience my W bff egged her on the whole time. From phone records W contacted the bff right before contacting OM. As if she was getting the green light before doing so. When W lost her bff due to a move up north. W waa sad and I was happy. But they still run their mouths on the phone all the time.

Funny part is that prior to the A, bff was not dependable. Wouldn't return W phone calls for days and wouldn't even hang out that much over the years. W started the A and now they're closer and in constant communication.

[Tread]

Speaking from experience my W bff egged her on the whole time. From phone records W contacted the bff right before contacting OM. As if she was getting the green light before doing so. When W lost her bff due to a move up north. W waa sad and I was happy. But they still run their mouths on the phone all the time.

Funny part is that prior to the A, bff was not dependable. Wouldn't return W phone calls for days and wouldn't even hang out that much over the years. W started the A and now they're closer and in constant communication.

[sandi2]

I have felt reinvigorated the past 24-plus hours. Skipped church for two weeks in a row but "caught up" by listening to podcasts of the sermons past two days at gym. I really think its important (at least for me anyways) to have your thinking/perspective readjusted once a week, and church is my way of doing that. Coming to grips with the possibility of being on my own-- have wonderful kids despite their troubles, friends and family that love me... a lot of blessings to be thankful for and lots ahead of me with or without my W.

Good to hear you feel better. Yes, we must feed our spiritual side by listening to the Word taught/preached. It's as important as eating food to maintain our physical body.

[hoosjim]

Quick update:

Getting a plan in place to stabilize my Tourrettic S16 as school starts this week. Seems to be going well. Should free me up to get away for at least a few days to camp out and clear my head, though not the week to two weeks I was hoping for. Kid's not just in a place right now where I can run off and do that, especially with W and I both working full time.

Told W of my plans to do this (get away for a few). She asked if something was wrong and I just said "Nothing new, I just think we both have some thinking to do and I wanted to have some time to myself to do that." She mentioned she is thinking of "seeing someone" for IC. I reminded her I had seen the MC for a couple of IC sessions and that it had helped me. This could be either good or bad. Good if she follows through AND if she sees our very goal-oriented, affair-addictiveness-conversant and marriage-friendly MC or someone similar, but BAD if she gets guidance from bff (with whom she is STILL in constant contact) or otherwise ends up seeing one of the legions of "just do whatever makes yourself feel good" counselors/quacks that seem to be everywhere these days. We'll see. Not my battle to fight. Leaving that to the man upstairs. At least she's thinking of getting some help. Hoping and praying it ends up being the right kind.

We might be visiting S18 at college this coming Labor Day weekend for football game. (My Dad, who is an alum at same school as am I, and who is not aware of our MR difficulties, invited us.) Trying to figure out what that is going to look like. May have to tell Dad something of what's up.

[hoosjim]

Ugh.

So, okay, great. S17 comes home from school today and is a tick-y mess. (I came home early myself today to be here when he got home.) For those unfamiliar with Tourette's syndrome and it's variations and comorbidities, I will simply say this: My son has a very profound case, and, at times, presents like a person with autism and can effectively "shut down" or get "vapor locked" just like someone so afflicted. It can be heartbreaking. The good news is that with Tourette's and, in particular, Tourettic OCD which is a comorbidity from which my son suffers, a significant component of the disease is behavioral. Not ALL mind you, but a significant component. As such, he can be treated and "get better" to a much greater degree than can someone with autism. Also, since to a degree the symptoms are episodic (they wax and wane, often in association with external stressors) he is not, as someone with severe autism is, always "out of it". Sometimes he passes as completely functional/normal, although at all times his personality is just a wee bit... "quirky." Sweet kid, big heart, but obviously has issues. Holds him back to a degree in school even though he tests as "high IQ", and profoundly impacts both his social life (though he has good friends and he compensates) as well as his interactions at home, which have been increasingly stressed with W's and my difficulties.

How does this impact my current sitch? In a number of ways. Most significantly, it is impacting my freedom to "leave" and even, I would posit, to try to persuade my wife to "leave" if I want to create some separation. In some ways it even impacts my willingness to create an "in-house" separation or to otherwise stop "playing nice" with my W due to concerns over how degradations to the domestic environment might further stress/impact S17. The bottom line is that we have one year left to make a difference with him and get him straightened out (if he is to "leave the nest" like other HS graduates and move towards self-sufficiency) which, believe it or not, is a very real possibility if we (and he) commit ourselves to the effort. We are getting him back into weekly (maybe even twice-weekly) therapy, recommitting to the various home protocols, etc. (and, oh, by the way, trying to work on college apps and such) with him, which efforts had lapsed somewhat with both the advent of our MR issues and with the focus on S18 as we tried to get HIM over HIS issues in time for him to leave for college. (Mostly successful, there.) Either my W or I "leaving" (and we are both full-time workers), is going to significantly impact our ability to help S17 both directly due to the logistics and indirectly due to the increased stress.

I understand the theory that an unhappy marriage is more stress on the kids than is a split household but, in all honesty, at least to the kids' eyes, our marriage is probably more "productive" and healthy-appearing (at least outwardly and over the past month or two) than it has been in years. There is no abuse, my W and i are not fighting/arguing, our MR talks when they have occurred have occurred "offline", and both of us have been more outwardly "positive" than we had previously, at least when around the house. So I am not sure, unless the kids are good at picking up "vibes", that the current atmosphere for them is more toxic/stressful than would be a split. In fact, I rather think that it is not. Especially for the younger one (S17-- I think S18 had suspicions about the A, but he is off at college now).

So what do I do here? I have been gearing up (gathering my equipment, scouting campsites, etc) to make a move out of the house for a few days, and have even told my W I am going to be doing so when the weather breaks, by the end of Labor Day weekend at the latest.

But my heart breaks for S17 whenever I see him in the depths of one of his episodes, and I desperately want to do everything I can to help him and NOT to torpedo his progress. At the same time, I recognize the importance of taking care of myself, and of giving myself the time/space/whatever that I need to become a fully emotionally/mentally healthy person which, I admit, I probably am not right now. Layered onto this is the growing realization that I am in, in many ways, very "attached" to my wife and likely prone to look for excuses NOT to separate out of fear of losing her. So maybe my fears of hurting S17 are just another excuse.

Additionally, my W, while prolly "closer" to S17 than I am (S18 and I are the closer on that side), pretty demonstrably has a shorter fuse and less patience with him when he is in the depths of one of his spells than do I. If I jump ship for several days, not entirely sure she will be able to hang in there as the lone parent for him and pretty sure she will resent the hell out of me for leaving her alone with him if he is in any kind of "down cycle."

Anyone here have or know of any similar situations that they can speak to? Am I just worrying about nothing and generating excuses? I don't think so (you should see some of the videos I've collected of S17's episodes... heartbreaking). I think it's more likely that I am over-valuing my importance to the equation and de-valuing the importance of getting my own personal sitch figured out and detaching from my W. But I am interested in hearing others'thoughts, here.

[Holding]

Jim, my s10 received an informal tourette's diagnosis about a year ago. Both my sons have Adhd. S10 is also now showing some nerve damage in one of his hands and needs genetic testing.

My kids are everything to me and it's because of my commitment to them that I think I've been able to eat the sh*t sandwich for so long in my M.

Unfortunately I can't tell you what the right thing to do is. It's true that your son does need you. But he also needs an emotionally healthy you.

[hoosjim]

Jim, my s10 received an informal tourette's diagnosis about a year ago

Holding, this is obviously a bit of a tangent/sidebar/threadjack, but... I have obviously seen firsthand for many years now how disruptive actual Tourette's can be. It is NOT just the disease that "makes people shout out curse words at random intervals" (that is actually only a VERY minor subset of the condition that MOST T.S. patients do not experience.) HOWEVER: Wanted to share this since you sound mostly new to the syndrome-- 8-10 years is a very common diagnosis age. You "caught it" fairly early. And the early you catch it and treat it as Tourettes and not as something else, the better. YES, you should be willing to explore environmental factors such as food and other allergies and exposure to strep, and to consider alternative remedies and dietary supplementation (MAgnesium, Fish Oil, and B-12 are all clinically proven to help and are actually recommended by a significant number of mainstream doctors familiar with TS), BUT, and I CANNOT stress this enough: There is NO cure. Do NOT neglect the mental health angle when seeking treatment. Good and effective counseling, at an early age, can make all the difference in the world. You want a practitioner, preferably a PhD psychologist who is familiar at LEAST with CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) and preferably with CBIT (Cognitive Behavioral Intervention for Tics). The kids HAVE to be taught, counselled, and, in some senses reprogrammed to process their tics and the associated compulsions/urges/sensations. It is the closest thing to a cure that exists. We made the mistake of NOT going down that road until it was much later in my son's life (like 14 and almost 15), and in not seeking a CBT/CBIT professional at first. They are not easy to find, and there are alot of pracitioners out ther who set themselves forth as TS experts but are anything but. Find someone for whom that is a substantial portion of their practice. You may have to drive a while. We made many many LONG trips to the pediatric Tourette's unit at Johns Hopkins, which was excellent. Unfortunately, I don't know how they stack up now since the head of the division left in a shake up and moved to Cornell's medical center in New York. There is a fairly good center in suburban Maryland (don't know if I can mention counselling professionals by name on here) that is good but not quite up to what we were getting at Hopkins, which was VERY cutting edge stuff.

If you are interested and we can find a way to interface off line I could give you alot more insights and info.

Oh, another thing: Insist on family therapy being a component (or else find a practitioner that already incorporates family therapy). It can be a crucial component that makes all of the difference. These kids are wired differently and it can take the combined efforts of the whole family to really make a lasting difference.

But: Big lesson: don't delay in getting him treatment. It is easy to get lulled into a sense of complacency during the "down cycles" of the disease.

[hoosjim]

And, as an additional DB/MR-related note, it is the situation with my son and my wife's love for him that, ironically, makes me somewhat less trusting of her commitment to ME (and, yes, I know how selfish that sounds.) Bottom line, however, is that she loves those two boys so crazy much, is so afraid of losing them or of being the cause of their conditions worsening, that that is probably what "kept her around" as long as she did. If we were childless, or even if our boys were completely untroubled, there's a pretty good chance she'd have walked even before the Affair came about last Fall. She even said over and over early on in all of this that it was pretty much just for the kids that she was even thinking of trying to stick around and work on us. That tone has softened some in recent weeks, but I still think it is the major thing "keeping her around."

[OwnIt]

Jim, my D suffers from pretty profound depression and I was terrified about how she would handle my H leaving during her senior year when she had already been struggling. My overly sensitive son gave me grave concern for possible self-harm. I spent about 6 years of abuse (withholding, emotional games, mean comments, etc.--always away from the kids) with H in the home trying to keep him there. I do believe he cared about the kids and tried to stay. In the end, I couldn't take it anymore. At my D's request, I booted him from the home.

She got through her last year of HS (and even made the honor roll the last semester). She is now attending the top conservatory in the world and only a couple of days in seems exceptionally happy. My S is returning to himself after a really difficult year and is again looking forward to school and talking about wanting to do well.

Sadly my H has all but disappeared from their lives. But, I think the less he has been around, the better they have done. I really wish I had the strength to file for divorce 7 years ago when I first consulted a divorce attorney. I think I would have saved us all a lot of misery.

I know you have special circumstances and special needs, but that speaks to me more of a need to bring about stability. I thought my kids were oblivious to the strife and the tension. No, they knew about the problems before I could really accept them myself. They have both told me they are glad that he is not around anymore.

If your wife is truly committed to the kids she will work with you to ensure their success. If she is not, you are a strong man with his eyes on the prize and will do the right thing. She doesn't have to live in the same house with you to be a good mother to her boys.

Let go Jim. Just let her go and live your life. She may come back, she may not, but you all deserve some peace and happiness. Holding on just isn't good enough.

[hoosjim]

Another quick sidebar: How NOT to Divorce Bust.

If you're familiar with my sitch, you know my W's and my respective best friends married each other (we're how they met) and they are going through a split with somewhat similar backstory-- Neglect and SSM followed by WW having an A with husband's friend (also my friend.) There are some different overlays, though, notably that my friend's W (my own wife's "Bff") is a three-time adulteress at the expense of my friend (twice prior to current A), that friend's W is on her second marriage (married once prior to with my friend), that the AP at the time of BD was (so my friend thought) his BEST friend, and that there are also a few other significant personal (with his W) and marital issues that create some extra stressors on the marriage not present in my own. Finally, in terms of timeline, BD for him "I want to separate/divorce" was several months prior to discovery of the A (whereas for me the two were contemporaneous and, in fact, I have not yet gotten the "I want to split" by my W-- hinted and said she's close, but not recently and never with any finality)

I've described previously how my friend has pretty much deferred to and even enabled his WW from the very beginning. He found religion (legitimately, too, not as some gimmick) shortly after his W indicated she wanted to split, and his position is that he needs to be as loving and tolerant as possible towards everyone, and ESPECIALLY his W to whom he sees himself as owing some solemn duty even though she has committed adultery. He has, he has told me, put her in a hierarchy of loyalty in his worldview just below God and above his children. He is convinced that if she needs to "explore her sexuality and find her own way" that he should do nothing and say nothing about it. He has never established any boundaries against her doing so and pretty much instantly forgave her (less than a day) after finding out about the latest A with his friend, and told her "you know by now there is nothing I can't forgive you for"... thinking that this would help the situation. Throughout, he remained completely accessible to her, basically a live-in husband servant even though they were sleeping separately, and continued to do so after discovery of the A. Never raised any objections when she would take off, leaving him with the kids to go visit her AP a thousand miles away. They did actually physically separate about a month or so ago, but he has continued to "Be there" for her as fix it man, babysitter for kids, etc. He has also allowed her to continue her position in HIS family business, which business has considerably enriched her and allowed her to do things like, say, jet off for two weeks here and there to see her AP. (For color, she is not integral to the business and could be easily jettisoned with little or no impact on the bottom line.)

Now, I think it is finally starting to hit home with him. Not wanting to "Create an ugly scene", he agreed to an uncontested no-fault divorce (same lawyer for both of them) with no mention of the admitted and VERY proveable-in-court adultery even though that, in our state, would pretty much get him out of any support and prolly also get him the kids. Now, with only a month to go before things are final, his W up and tells him she's going to move several states away (to where her AP is)... AND TAKE THE KIDS WITH HER. Their kids (girls) are both younger than ours, at an impressionable age (6 and 12) and were just starting to really forge a bond with their father (my friend). The girls also, apparently, at least according to mutual friends in our circle whose own kids know the girls, are REALLY broken up about the situation and telling their friends so, even as both my friend (and his WW) continue to tell everyone that "THe children are really handling this well."

I had some hope that he was coming around when he announced his plans to get out of town for two to three months to "create some distance". Turns out, however, he is only doing so to "get used to" the dynamic of living so far away from his girls.

W. T. F. ???!!!?!?

I know I have not handled my own sitch particularly well, but my buddies situation just boggles my mind. I want to grab him by his lapels and yell "Wake up Dude! Fight for yourself and your frikking kids who are going to end up being raised by your train-wreck of a wife!!!" But I cant say anything. He has basically told me point blank that he doesn't agree with my take and now refuses to talk to me about any of that. (Though he has softened a BIT the past couple of weeks as the realities hit home, and has begun to discuss the generalities of it with me.) The rest of his friends in our circle are similarly flummoxed. It's ended two or three other friendships to this point.

This guy is a really good and loyal friend, and someone I would definitely trust to have my back, but... his worldview and mindset, wherever they are coming from, are not helping him. It's even tempting for me to say his advice to me in the early days of my own sitch were bad and hurt my prospects... But ironically I think, even as in hindsight I would not have listened to him and would have taken a different approach, that the course I did take (listening to him at the time) has ultimately put me in a better position mid and longer term than I would have been. In any event, I would love to help him (he is the one who introduced my to DB-ing books, oddly enough) but don't know how. And I am at peace enough in my own circle to know that I can't "save people", but, yeesh. [censored] to see it.

Doesn't help my own sitch any either, I am sure, for my own W to see her bff effectively getting away with murder at my friends' expense. Ah well, if that's who my W wants to be, ultimately, I'll want nothing to do with her.

[LH19]

Jim,

Are there any males in your group that are willing to stand up to their partners and not let them completely walk all over them?

Man, you need some new friends!

[Holding]

Hey Jim, just wanted to follow up on your earlier comment to me about my S10. Thanks for the info and insight. I know this is an important sitch for S10, but I think it may have to go on the backburner for a while until the D is settled. I'd love to be able to interface offline, but not sure how we could do that.

[sandi2]

So, what's the latest with your W?

[hoosjim]

So, what's the latest with your W?

Nothing really noteworthy. School starting this week for S17 and trying to get him squared away with new counseling and protocols at home has kept us busy. W has been in a funk for most of week... actually "depressed" as she puts it. She hasn't opened up or given any reason, though. She had been sort of steadily "cozying up" to me. Calling/texting a lot, inviting me to do things with her pretty much anytime she went somewhere or did anything, doing/saying jokey things to cheer me up when I was briefly down after S18 heading off to school. I started noticing the turn in her on Sunday. She just sounds down. Maybe my S18 being off at college is hitting her a bit, too.

She's still not doing anything rebellious, disrespectful, or otherwise "wrong"... with possible exception of 1)Last Saturday, she took S17 to dinner while I was out with friends. She chose restaurant within same mini-mall (and visual distance) of OM's hangout #2. It is a BIT out of the way for us, but a place the kids do like and at which we have eaten before a couple of times. She even called me from their to say "we're here and eating." She then chose (again asking the boy first) to try to go by a donut shop on the way home... which by necessity from where they were coming from took her right by OM hangout #1. Maybe something maybe nothing. Didn't even mention it last week on here cause wasn't sure it was worth mentioning, but you are the WW guru, so thought all facts should be known.

AND 2) Wednesday. Told me she would be staying after work with coworkers at her office, and was 45 minutes later getting home than she said she would be, though she did text at the point she should originally have been home and again when she did actually leave. Earlier that day she had had a 35 minute lunch out of the office (she told me, I didn't check) which was fairly unusual for her and about which her story kinda kept changing, but I was trying not to read too much into it-- the way she phrased things could have been interpreted just as easily that she was trying to reassure me and clarify as that she was obfuscating. (It's complicated and I wont relate the whole conversation but trust me). At any rate, that, and the fact that she'd been acting depressed (which has been a precursor to her "slipping" in the past) put me slightly on edge. So, when she was late getting home I overreacted and instead of be there when she got there where I might say something I texted her I was changing my plans from working out to going out to get myself dinner and a drink.

Would've just blown over but she called me from road and said she could tell something was wrong (I'd've sworn my voice was normal, whatever). So then she COMES BY the restaurant and brings S17 to get dinner because she said she wanted to find out what was wrong and thought they might cheer me up. Well, I'd had a drink, was still thinking crazy thoughts, and... didn't exactly "lay into her", but, after she'd asked a couple of times and while S17 was in bathroom, did tell her "I don't know if I can keep doing this", told her I didn't know why she couldn't just "level with me and tell me the full truth about her plans", that I enjoyed her company and hanging out with her and how nice and warm she's been but that she hadn't really been doing anything that made me feel like she was interested in making up for the A and in trying seriously to work on us. Also told her that the more I talked with my own best friend--who's starting to finally realize just how shitty and painful his end of the stick is going to be-- the more I was shocked and troubled that she did not seem at all to think that what her own bff had been doing to my friend, her STBXH, was wrong (at least not that she's told me, anyway.) Okay, so maybe that qualifies as "laying into her", though I did not shout or raise my voice. I returned to the MBR (we'd both been sleeping in the better bed in the guest BR) that night to sleep by myself.

Thursday was a typical "day after she's pissed me off." She texted and called repeatedly and I ignored it. Until about lunch when I started thinking more about it. (And the more I read it here in print the more I realize I really had nothing concrete and badly overreacted.) She was friendly and engaging.

She called me on her way home and asked how I was doing. We discussed a lot of things. Her "depression". My anger the previous night. How I felt like we were stagnating and that she wasn't really committed to the effort. (she said she felt like we were really working on connecting... "except for sex"). I told her I didn't feel like it was good enough for us to be just trying to "see if feelings are going to pop up" but that we needed to be working on the marriage or not working on the marriage, period. Told her my main issue with Wednesday was that she was late without telling me (though she DID give me more notice than I seem to have acknowledged and, honestly, my mind was also spinning scenarios about her and OM.) Told her I was sorry if I seemed angry because I really wasn't (and, honestly, I wasn't. Disappointed and hurt, yes, but I really wasn't hopping mad.) She said that she feels like she's really limited herself, hasn't gone out with friends, and that everything she's done socially the past few weeks she's done with me or me and the kids, so when I was ticked about Wednesday she like... "Really?" But she didn't act mad or vindictive about it. Just told me how she felt. I told her I could understand that, but she needed to understand that I had needs, too, and that getting over the A and trusting her was not going to be easy and that I really needed her to be committed to doing so. We talked some about our past issues in passing, and also about getting back into counseling, BOTH IC and MC. Couldn't figure out when we're going to make that happen, though, as we both have ridiculous schedules the next two weeks. I made it clear I'm not going back into counseling unless we are going to follow our MC's advice... which is that we each get IC first. It was a good talk. Probably too much, but she initiated it, and my DB coach (who I re-engaged with this week) indicated I could do so as long as I remembered to validate her feelings and not over-focus on my own. (Which I did a little but probably could have done better.)

Last night was my weekly "outdoor workday/happy hour/night out with my friends" night. Only me and one other buddy, who I hadn't seen a lot of recently but who is himself divorced for the past year and who hasn't been getting out much. I've been trying to get him back "out of his shell" and last night I think I succeeded pretty well. Had him laughing and joking and reminiscing, flirting with the waitress. It was a good night. So good I had to Uber home. (W called at one point to check in and see how I was doing and offer ride but I told her I'd be ubering.)

Prolly more than you wanted to hear, but that's "Life in Mr. HoosJim's World" at the present...

[sandi2]

W has been in a funk for most of week... actually "depressed" as she puts it.

That's actually a good sign. In fact the whole paragraph sounds hopeful, IMHO. It means she is probably not contacting OM. Also, S17 leaving for college, could cause some sadness as a mother. I would be a lot more worried if she was acting thrilled.

She's still not doing anything rebellious, disrespectful, or otherwise "wrong"... with possible exception of 1)Last Saturday, she took S17 to dinner while I was out with friends. She chose restaurant within same mini-mall (and visual distance) of OM's hangout #2. It is a BIT out of the way for us, but a place the kids do like and at which we have eaten before a couple of times. She even called me from their to say "we're here and eating." She then chose (again asking the boy first) to try to go by a donut shop on the way home... which by necessity from where they were coming from took her right by OM hangout #1. Maybe something maybe nothing. Didn't even mention it last week on here cause wasn't sure it was worth mentioning, but you are the WW guru, so thought all facts should be known.

Yes, it is worth mentioning, b/c the hangout is out of her way. It's the addiction pulling at her to just have a hint about what he's doing and where he is. Hopefully, she did not pursue to contact him after passing the hangout. If she did, it will put her back to starting over in the withdrawals. The rest of that paragraph sounds good. Perhaps it's discouraging to you that you aren't seeing more in her, but I can assure you that her not showing rebellion or disrespect......is a terrific step forward. She has to do the right thing, first, and then her feelings will catch up.

Thursday was a typical "day after she's pissed me off." She texted and called repeatedly and I ignored it. Until about lunch when I started thinking more about it. (And the more I read it here in print the more I realize I really had nothing concrete and badly overreacted.) She was friendly and engaging.

Makes sense.......if you never established where the two of you are in the MR. I don't want to imply that you should walk around on egg shells.......but you won't have very many times you can afford to react the way you did that night. Like I said, part of it comes from you not having an agreement or commitment from her. It's as if you are trying to feel your way blindfolded. And, it doesn't work well when you are trying to piece the M back together. The two of you have to be on the same page. You have operated under this same type of dynamics ever since she dropped the bomb.

She called me on her way home and asked how I was doing. We discussed a lot of things. Her "depression". My anger the previous night. How I felt like we were stagnating and that she wasn't really committed to the effort. (she said she felt like we were really working on connecting... "except for sex"). I told her I didn't feel like it was good enough for us to be just trying to "see if feelings are going to pop up" but that we needed to be working on the marriage or not working on the marriage, period. Told her my main issue with Wednesday was that she was late without telling me (though she DID give me more notice than I seem to have acknowledged and, honestly, my mind was also spinning scenarios about her and OM.) Told her I was sorry if I seemed angry because I really wasn't (and, honestly, I wasn't. Disappointed and hurt, yes, but I really wasn't hopping mad.)

Okay, that was good. Let this be a starting line, and go to a MC for guidance in piecing.
You both were telling the other one what your needs are.......but did you agree in how you both get needs met? This is why you need a therapist. This stuff does not heal overnight, and if you get drunk.....your hard work could go down the drain in just a few minutes.

Just told me how she felt. I told her I could understand that, but she needed to understand that I had needs, too, and that getting over the A and trusting her was not going to be easy and that I really needed her to be committed to doing so

You continued to talk and she never said anything about commitment? I wished you had stopped right at that sentence and waited for a verbal answer. She gets out of these situations without committing or agreeing......or anything, b/c you talk for her, and she never actually says it. Why didn't you say you would not even try to trust her until she made a commitment? Instead, you tell her how difficult it is for you without her commitment.........so, she continues to not commit. Do you see what I mean?

She said that she feels like she's really limited herself, hasn't gone out with friends, and that everything she's done socially the past few weeks she's done with me or me and the kids, so when I was ticked about Wednesday she like... "Really?

Do you remember me telling you that each of you will have plenty of work to do on your side of the street? Her work is not going to look the same as your work. Also, she is likely to give up if she doesn't understand the process. Again, I stress the need for professional guidance at this point.

I don't want to discourage you in GAL. However, just saying if she is being honest and NC with OM, she is very fragile while going through withdrawals. Leaving her home alone, may not be the best thing to do at this particular time. See what I mean?

I suggest you get an answer from her, telling you if she's in or out. Otherwise, Jim, I don't think it will be successful. You both need a plan and have professional assistance. At least, you come to the board.......but she has nothing (as far as you know).

She could be playing games. Too soon to really know. But if you stay in this spot without acting on what I've suggested.......it will all be for nothing. And another thing before I go. If she feels she has to report her ever mood, and she has no support......how long do you think that will last? Is she volunteering the information, or are you asking her?

[hoosjim]

Sandi, thanks for all the detailed input, as always.

Quick note and quick question.

Weekend was much of the same. Visited S18 for football game at his college. Saw many friends, new and old, talked and laughed. W got to see me "in my element", having great time with friends (I am an alum of my son's cillege, so going for fame means seeing many old college friends... friends of both W and me) and hearing people say "wow hoosjim looks GREAT! Has he been working out?" She suggested extending weekend into a beach trip, do we did, with S17 and friend if his. She invited me to go with her to see outdoor concert if her favorite local band, so we went, sat on lawn, had a couple beers, laughed and joked and raljed sbout music (a dhared interest) danced some (though not close). It was nice.

She's been alternately warming up and cooling off towards me physically. Saturday night, she was keeping closer to me in bed moving ovet to sleep against me some, or such. Sunday, though, after we'd had thar nice evening out and you da thought her MORE likely to want to be closer, she was much less so, way over on her side of bed, back turned, and kind of sulky/mopey once we got back.

The question: Should I be being more proactive now in trying to keep her on the straight and narrow. For instance, I had no reason to think she had seen or tried to see OM when she went out to dinner with S17 (and remember, it was SHE who called ME to tell me she was over thereĺ, but should I have said something like " it was really good that you were able to get out and have some quality time with our son, but maybe it wasn't the best idea to go out to a place right over there next to OM hangout. We need to be doing everything we can to AVOID OM right now."

A similar situation is actually coming up tonight, we're at is senior night at our high school where the parents of the seniors go to find out everything we need to do for the upcoming year in high school and for college applications etc etc. The OM has two kids in my son's grade who are also seniors and he is almost certain to be there himself. Should my wife even go to this? Should I actively discourage her from doing so? I have already told her that I am going, but I know that she wants to go to see some of her other friends amongst the parents.

[Ginger1]

Sandy brongs up something very very important ot all of this that she has brought up multiple times, that I have brought up multiple times, along with other posters. But you dance around it just like you dance around it with your wife.

Do you have a verbal commitment from her that she is committed to working on your marriage? You need clarity on this for any of this to work. I think you are scared to find out she might be playing you until OM2 comes along. You are scared of her answer. But you NEED this answer to be effective going forward.

As for banning your W from important information about your sons future because OM is going to be there? Come on now. So if OM is at all school events, your W can't go? What would be your purpose in that, especially if you are there with her? Going to the same gym, or sometimes even working together (I don't agree in blocking this in every situation, especially if that job is the one that supports the family), or hanging out at the same bars is one thing, but if you live close, you can't keep her out of the grocery store, only map particular routes, ban her from school functions because he is there. You will pretty much have to move away, or she will go nuts and probably crack when trying to plot her life. ANd if you think she is truly done, then this shouldn't worry you as much, especially if she is letting you know.

If you isolate her over this, keeping her from school functions, from her friends, she will not stay. No contact and transparency is one thing, but trying to keep a 10 mile radius and isolating her is another. It will be doomed to fail.

[hoosjim]

Sandy brongs up something very very important ot all of this that she has brought up multiple times, that I have brought up multiple times, along with other posters. But you dance around it just like you dance around it with your wife.

"Danced around"? Really? Didn't even see where I addressed that suggestion by Sandi. Since it's on the table now, however, this is the most recent "indication" I have, FWIW: My W was the one to most recently bring up the counseling angle, saying she was going to cancel a class she had been planning on taking (and really looking forward to) so that we could go see our out of town counselor for both IC and MC. (four sessions in one day.) Has she used to words "I'm committed"? No, but I haven't asked her explicitly to do so. I'm trying to avoid forcing the MR convos these days, and let her bring things up. We will, however, need to schedule a preliminary with our MC first, at which time I am going to ask her Sandi's suggested "are you in or not" question. Within the next two days. Okay? I'm not "scared" of any answer... or I never would have even broached the subject with her.

And trust me, I fully understand the need to have her committed to this going forward.

On the other, I very much want to hear Sandi's take on this, and I tend to disagree with your take. At BEST, she is about four weeks in to "No contacting" the OM, assuming he has not tried to call or contact her and she has not sought him out. Pretty certain at least that she has not "seen" him. If Sandi is right that the "Drive bys" last week are a bit worrisome, then maybe, just maybe, and just for the SHORT TERM, mind you, it might not be a good idea for her to SEE the man. The venue would be a relatively small HS cafeteria where she would almost certainly see him with potential for "running into" him or more. If Sandi thinks there is no danger of setting her back, here, I will accept that, but knowing what I know after having seen her progress and fall back, and having read extensively now on affair addictiveness, etc., I am more than half inclined to think it would be a good idea for her to stay away... and then just meet her friends afterwards for a drink which was what she had already mentioned doing anyway (not staying away, but the getting a drink part.) I think this could be couched in a non-controlling and sensible way, in the context of what we are both going through right now and making clear it is not what I expect her to have to do long term in terms of limiting her attendance at functions. I can of course see it the other way, that it might not be harmful, but can also very, very easily see how it could be. If Sandi tells me I'm wrong and to STFU then I will retract, but I do not at all think my question is an unreasonable one.




And additional color on the "information vital to my son's future": We just went through this, including this same presentation, LAST fall for my older son who is now in college. Doubt there is going to be much if anything that is substantively "new"... especially since most of the guidance stuff is already available on-line. Think her MAIN focus on going was going to see her friends... whom she could of course still see afterwards if she goes out to get a drink.

[hoosjim]

Appending this to the most recent post: The specific question of going to tonight's parent's meeting has been OBE. She called me just now and said "Why don't you just go without me, I'll stick around for the end of my work day [she'd've had to have left early to go to the meeting] and then have dinner with S17]" My larger question for Sandi still stands, however: At least in the short term, should I be more proactive about things like a) where I knew she had those drive bys and, more importantly b) where we or she are going to be going somewhere like tonight's meeting where we are pretty sure OM is going to be? Will it set her back to "see" him in person even if I am there and there is no "interaction."?

Also, Ginger, my response to you seemed a little sharp, and I could have used better manners/phrasing, BUT... I do take exception to your characterizations of my most recent conversations and interactions. I have actually been pretty clear what I want/expect since this time last week:

I told her I didn't feel like it was good enough for us to be just trying to "see if feelings are going to pop up" but that we needed to be working on the marriage or not working on the marriage, period.

... and she seems to be receptive, as discussed above. We still have a lot of work to do in the short term in terms of discussing and setting expectations and ground rules, and then in the long term in terms of piecing once we get to that point, BUT... even though she hasn't said the words "I'm committed", her actions APPEAR to be saying she is. And, like I said, when we talk over the next couple of days about scheduling our IC and MC sessions, the first thing I am going to ask of her, point blank and explicitly, is "Are you sure you are in/committed and ready to do this". Her actions so far are saying yes, but, of course, I would love to hear her say it explicitly. Who wouldn't?

[sandi2]

The question: Should I be being more proactive now in trying to keep her on the straight and narrow. For instance, I had no reason to think she had seen or tried to see OM when she went out to dinner with S17 (and remember, it was SHE who called ME to tell me she was over thereĺ, but should I have said something like " it was really good that you were able to get out and have some quality time with our son, but maybe it wasn't the best idea to go out to a place right over there next to OM hangout. We need to be doing everything we can to AVOID OM right now."

Let me clarify something, in case I haven't in the past. When the WW shows remorse, takes responsibility for her actions, apologizes to her H, and commits to doing whatever it takes to save the M (including a transparency plan her H lays out)........this is the point in time that the H needs to start making some adjustments in his approach with her. Actually, he can do a lot more, once they are past the withdrawals and into piecing. You want to know when he can be her friend? He can start here. You want to know when he can support her, show how much he cares, share family activities with her...........this is the time. You want to recommend tapes and books.......as long as she's willing and interested, then that's fine. In other words, if she is seriously cooperating with you in an attempt to reconcile your relationship.......then you can slowly take a step toward her. However, if she pulls back, that probably means she wasn't ready for that move. I think this is especially touchy during withdrawals. She has to get that OM out of her head, before she can be completely receptive to her H. I just wanted you to understand that as she progresses and as the MR is healing........baby steps are made.

As they move into piecing, having a clear, no nonsense commitment from her, frees him to do these actions he was not free to do when she was rebelling against him. However, let me stress that in cases I've seen, he will have to go slowly and gently in showing these things. If he pours it on too quickly, she's going to turn tail and run. S-l-o-w and easy is the way to go. She can't handle much pressure. As long as she shows no outward signs of waywardness, he can continue to slowly close the gap. However, if her attitude starts to crack and that old wayward resentment and disrespect begins to seep through.......immediately pull back. Rinse and repeat.

Note: She is not the one coming to the board, therefore, she does not have it mapped out what she should do. IMHO, most WW's are going to avoid part of the things I've listed. If the H believes she is being truthful, he may have to tell her what he needs. For example, you told your W how hard it will be for you if she does not commit to the M. That should have been enough for the lightbulb to go off in her head. Why could she not say, "But Jim, I am committed to our M"............"I am willing to do whatever I have to, in order to get our MR in a good place".........."I feel terrible for what I've done".........."How will you ever be able to forgive me"? It doesn't have to be in the exact words, but should be enough that you would have a general idea of what she was communicating.

Not having a verbal commitment from the W that she is willing to do whatever is necessary to save the M........and an agreement and understanding about transparency, causes things to be much more complicated. So much, in fact, I would discourage any H to even attempt at calling this a reconciliation...........and certainly not piecing. For example, if she had committed, and if she understood how transparency was to help her through the withdrawals........then I'd have said to proceed with suggesting to her how having a glimpse of OM (whether intended or not) could reset her withdrawal time. In other words, she loses the ground gained and puts her back at square one. It's so important that she sees transparency as a means to help her........rather than being a way for the H to punish her, or satisfying his need to control her. Even with her full cooperation, I don't think the H should criteak her action every time........unless he has evidence that she's lying or withholding details of how it all played out. If he doubts her, I think it would be better to say nothing and consult with whatever verification resources he may have. Then, keep tabs on her, and see if the next time is another situation that takes her near OM.

To clarify, when the W has committed to transparency and working to save the M........I absolutely encourage the H to support her by being proactive. Planning ahead and discussing any potential pitfalls sounds reasonable, to me. I don't think it's wise to try to have these discussions when she appears cold and moody........or ask questions afterwards if she seems irritated. (This, of course, is from the viewpoint of a former WW, so bear that in mind). I was always resentful whenever my H took the tone of being my parent, or if I even saw a twinkle of self-righteousness in his face. It's not an easy time for either spouse.

The first couple of months are touchy for both spouses. His feelings are raw from the betrayal and lies. If she is honestly committed and is putting forth effort (especially whatever her H needs from her to feel secure), things could get intense on both sides if he asks too many questions. She begins to resent having to give an account, and starts seeing him wearing a judge's robe........or as being self righteous. So, it's not a fun time for anyone.

If the W has not made it clear that she wants to even save the M........much less, be transparent, then she actually holds all the power. Instead of teamwork, he'll never know where they stand. Is she playing games, is she lying, what should he do, etc.

You may not be able to go down the list and check off the things your W has done to meet the criteria of reconciliation. IMHO, if she isn't saying what you need to hear, I think asking her directly is better than being in the dark. I don't mean to put words in her mouth.........b/c like me, you say too many words, Jim. She'd likely to get lost in what it was you wanted to hear. . I told you one time not to put words into her mouth. In this case, I would put it in the form of a question.,,,,,,,and not keep talking.......and look at her till she gave an answer. "W, are you committed to doing what is necessary to save our M"? The trouble with her is she gives an unsatisfactory response. Like saying, "Isn't that what I've been doing for the past month"?

Finally, regarding her attending the parent meeting where everyone is in the same room.......I don't think it's a good idea. She will think you are trying to control her and she'll remind you how they could run in to each other in town, etc. Four weeks is just about the right time for those cravings to be hitting hard. In fact, it concerns me that she is using the old friends as an excuse to go. However, if she has no idea how addictive affairs are......then she doesn't know how to fight against what she feels. If you live in a small place, I think the chances of them seeing each other is greater, of course, but if she can get completely through the withdrawals.......maybe she'll look at him and wonder what she ever saw. I think four weeks is just not near long enough. If you pinned her down about passing his hangout......I bet she'd tell you she did it to test her feelings.

I feel like I've made a mess of this post. Sorry, if this is too muddy to understand. Hope I haven't confused anyone. Pleae ask questions, if needed.

[hoosjim]

I feel like I've made a mess of this post. Sorry, if this is too muddy to understand. Hope I haven't confused anyone. Pleae ask questions, if needed.

No Sandi, thanks... This is actually perhaps the most helpful post I have ever received on one of my threads. Alot to digest, though, and, you are correct... there is still alot more uncertainty than there should be. I am sure I will have more questions, but right now need to digest.

And, just to clarify, you are NOT suggesting i try to "pin her down" on driving past OM's hangout, correct? I am assuming that that was just speaking hypothetically....

[sandi2]

Don't ask questions about her driving by OM.

[hoosjim]

In this case, I would put it in the form of a question.,,,,,,,and not keep talking.......and look at her till she gave an answer. "W, are you committed to doing what is necessary to save our M"? The trouble with her is she gives an unsatisfactory response. Like saying, "Isn't that what I've been doing for the past month

Lol... so I got BOTH answers. I put the question to her pretty much as you suggested, to which she responded "Yes... that's why I've been doing all these things I've been doing [lists things here] and why I was kind of put off last week when you got angry with me when I was late getting home from work." We talked a bit about that, and about my difficulties in trusting her, and she said something interesting here "That night, you had the same look of hurt and anger and pain that you had when you found the phone and told me you wanted me to leave." (Now, I didn't think I was anywhere near that upset--or transparent--when we had that little glitch last week, but at least she's KIND OF acknowledging MY pain for a change.)

At any rate, I still don't know that I have an "all in" from her. She says she wants to go back into counselling (including IC), but... she still seems to be qualifying her "commitment". Despite what she said above, she later said "You have changed SO much, and you look better than... like better than you ever have, and things have really been good for us in a lot of ways the past few weeks, but I've just been trying to see if that is enough for me, if I can be happy with that one piece (sex/intimacy) still missing." (Basically saying she still doesn't have those intimate feelings for me.) To me, that seems like she's still heavily qualifying things. I didn't tell HER that... Just listened, nodded, validated, etc.

She did say that there were still barriers there that made it awkward for us when we were touching, etc. And she's right, there are definitely barriers there on both sides. While I WANT to, something still doesn't feel quite right in reaching out to her physically.

She also sidetracked at one point into what was sort of a minimizing of her affair and the role her bff played in that "Well, I never really used the trips down to visit her as cover to do anything" (Which is most definitely NOT true... I didn't argue it with her now, but have told her in past I know different and I DID say this time "Do we really want to go down that road right now?") But... not comforting that she is still minimizing that and not acknowledging the full extent of things.

Interesting that this didn't even start as a MR convo... but instead as gossip about our soon-to-be-divorced best friends who now, if things go as they look like they are going, will be involved in a full blown and unplanned "spouse swap." Total train wreck.

Idunno. She seemed very genuine at times... and I wanted to believe her when she said she was "in" but... seems like an awful lot of qualifiers.

And for those keeping count, assuming I'm not missing something, we are now at NC+6 weeks.



Oh, and important addenda (I think)... while discussing the lack of intimate/romantic feelings, she did say that "maybe that's something the counselor can help us work through."

FWIW, my DB coach said not to be worried at this point if she didn't have any "sparky" romantic feelings for me... just too soon after ending the A... and that I could actually tell W that it was okay and that i did not "Expect" that yet. (Which I did tell her.)

[25yearsmlc]

Oh, and important addenda (I think)... while discussing the lack of intimate/romantic feelings, she did say that "maybe that's something the counselor can help us work through."

FWIW, my DB coach said not to be worried at this point if she didn't have any "sparky" romantic feelings for me... just too soon after ending the A... and that I could actually tell W that it was okay and that i did not "Expect" that yet. (Which I did tell her.)

Curious, why tell her that? I'm asking.

[hoosjim]

Second important addenda: I also find myself less concerned than at any time I can recall about the ultimate outcome here. i still do very much want to be with her, but at the same time I am having a really good time with all of my friends, old and new, and with all of my GAL activities, and I know that i will be okay. I've seen definite interest from other women when I have been out, which is a simultaneous confidence booster as well as test of commitment.

Really looking forward to the rest of my life. I'd just prefer, all else being equal, that that occur with my family intact.

[hoosjim]

Coach said it a) takes pressure off of her b) hopefully encourages her to stop hyper-analyzing everything and c) hopefully help free her up just enjoy the "good moments" as "good moments" which are a necessary precursor to the romance anyway. Also I think she mentioned might help lay the groundwork for the counselor to talk to her about affair addictiveness, getting over it, rebuilding intimacy, love as a deliberate "choice", etc.

It made sense to me. Didn't see the harm in it. I mean, she DOESNT have those feelings for me now. I DID qualify, however, that that was ABSOLUTELY what I wanted in my MR, just that I didn't expect her to be able to "flip that switch" instantaneously right now.

[25yearsmlc]

Jim,

I hope you won't feel resentful of my comments. I mean to help. I'm not nearly as cynical as you think.

Just b/c my very long M is ending, after a dozen years of first DBing, does not invalidate my views.

Actually I've been on both sides of this. I think the feeling that I had reconciled & succeeded, but then we did not piece well, and now I am here, might have some value.

Here is what you wrote:

(Now, I didn't think I was anywhere near that upset--or transparent--when we had that little glitch last week, but at least she's KIND OF acknowledging MY pain for a change.)

At any rate, I still don't know that I have an "all in" from her.

Jim, you have said this ^^^ many many times. Which you probably know.

So what would "knowing she is all in" look like to you, Specifically? And if it's not met and clear, what then? Can you decide and then enforce that?


She says she wants to go back into counselling (including IC), but... she still seems to be qualifying her "commitment".

Despite what she said above, she later said


actions versus words.

What she DOES matters and what she says, does not. She IS qualifying her commitment. It's the only thing clear in her lack of clarity.

Her behavior - per you - is still not showing commitment and being all in. You still have that itchy sweater feeling for a reason. At this point - why bother dwelling on her words, when the actions are not consistently consistent?

You need consistency and without it, what do you really have?
To reconcile for real, the WAS has to bear the brunt of the heavy lifting. Your w is not. Sure, once upon a time you did not do the heavy lifting and she did. And she felt rejected.

You cannot change the past, and you say (and I believe) You are working in your sandbox. If so, then just be here now. Your w is clearly Not clear...

Serious question, has she engaged in actions that reveal a commitment of all in, consistently, and for more than a few weeks?

I believe if you read over your earlier threads objectively, maybe you'll see things in a new way. There really is a lot of the same going on as was at the beginning.


"You have changed SO much, and you look better than... like better than you ever have, and things have really been good for us in a lot of ways the past few weeks,

but I've just been trying to see if that is enough for me, if I can be happy with that one piece (sex/intimacy) still missing." (Basically saying she still doesn't have those intimate feelings for me.)

Actually I think she's saying she does not believe it'll happen AND she is wondrering if she can keep on living without it.

To me, that seems like she's still heavily qualifying things.[/b]


She is qualifying things a great deal. And it is the biggest issue in your m that she's qualifying. I would imagine that hurts you a great deal. Sorry about that. Hard enough on the ego to be here with your background. (IE the intimacy issues).

I know it's a real drag and it can wear you down.

[hoosjim]

actions vs words

Actuall, right now, her actions are BETTER than her words. She's LITERALLY NOT DOING anything wrong and hasn't for the past few weeks. Hasn't gone out with anyone but me. Let's me track her lication. Calls or texts regularly, especially when late. Has not brought up neglect as excuse for the A. Though she DID minimize or lie about one aspect of it last night, though honestly she,seemed convinced of her truthfulness and she is NOT a good liar. (Deluding herself?) But, other than that, she hasn't done anything bad and HAS warmed up to me... we're just not having sex or the immediate precursors thereto. If she does go to IC she'll literally be,checking all the boxes.

It's her words that are more troubling than her actions right now. And she's sulky/mopey, but doesn't direct it at me

[25yearsmlc]

[quote]actions vs words

Actuall, right now, her actions are BETTER than her words. She's LITERALLY NOT DOING anything wrong and hasn't for the past few weeks.

Jim, I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but your statement (all in caps!!) that she is "literally not doing anything wrong" is a bit over the top.

I'm not arguing with you. No need to rebut every point. I'm noting your persistent feeling that she is not all in, which probably remains for a reason.

Also - her behavior in front of and around you is an action. Being mopey and not being intimate are actions.

Telling you she's not sure if she can stay married without intimacy - is not saying she hopes to have intimacy, it's not saying she hopes to feel attracted to you and then have intimacy someday.

She presumes & accepts she won't feel that way. Her question which she made to your face, is about HER needs, as she wonders if SHE can live with a sexless m. Nothing in there about your needs.

I'm so sorry, but This would devastate me.

[hoosjim]

all in caps!!

Srry. Only intended "doing" to be in caps--my phone does weird things via autocorrect and I am a crappy text typer. Also I'd use italics but don't know the html (or whatever) code for that.

This would devastate me

And, it did devastate me... months ago when she told me that or something similar for the first time... along with all the other stuff. This is not exactly news. I'm not so fragile these days that I can keep being hurt by hearing something I already know and have known for some time. This is obviously something...in fact the main thing... that will have to be worked through. But that seems to me to be SOP in these cases.

Mopey-Ness good or bad? Sandi seems,to think good at this stage, you bad. File me under "not unexpected", which I guess is,somewhere in the middle.

FWIW, she has said on several occasions that I "deserve that kind of relationship" and that she doesn't want to hurt me or trap me in a Loveless marriage either. And she indicated a hope yesterday that the MC could help her/us work through the intimacy piece.

And none of this is yo say I thonk we are in any kind of great place, as you accurately note, but... I've gotta go SOMEWHERE (italics) On some, perhaps even several levels I didn't handle all this as well as I could have, but I am where I am. And,where that is I don't think it would be productive for me to walk out or try to push her out. I've chosen my psth-- reengage with the DB coach, reenter counselling IF she agrees to take the professional advice offered, which inclues getting IC and IF she continues to behave herself, and see if we can keep building and hopefully get bff out of picture when she moves 1000 miles away. (My own bff did me a huge unintentional favor here by moving out of state to create some "distance" until his D is final, leaving my W's bff with the kids and no convenient childcare, so W's bff can no longer go out at night and invite my wife. W's bff is PI$$ED, lol.)

So, anyway, thats the playbook and sitch for now. Do I wish it were different? Yes. Do I think its hopeless? No, just hard. I honestly don't think things are going to drag on past years end before i have significantly more clarity on where we're headed, even if i dont, as will almost assuredly be the case, know what the final outcome will be. This is the plan. If you or anyone else (definitely interested in hearing sandi2's take) has any further specific suggestions of things I might want to consider, I'm all ears.

[hoosjim]

Quick toss out question for anyone: Our anniversary is next week. Neither W nor I has mentioned it. Obviously, doing anything to "celebrate" it seems kind of weird under the circumstances. OTOH, we are in this weird place right now where she at least says she is trying to work things out with us, and she is behaving herself, so it Doesn't feel like I should completely blow it off, either. Maybe bring it up with her, ask how she feels about it? Just feels like we should do SOMETHING, though not the usual type stuff... after all, my take on the marriage is that the original M is over and that if we are going to have something together it is going to be something new.

Interested in all takes, here.

[Tread]

Unless W gives uouba definite yes for staying in the MR, I say do nothing. Wish her a happy anniversary, perhaps give a card at most.

[TBSakaJ9]

My anniversary is next week and I don't plan on doing a thing. She left, moved out, wanted out of the MR etc. I will not acknowledge unless she is reaches out.

[Maika]

Yeh I am J on this one. You're living a great life and moving on and not stuck to some date that has no meaning any more.

[sandi2]

When a WW is still in contact with her OM, I usually discourage the H from acknowledging the anniversary. You need to understand the path you are currently on. If you are in the initial stage of "Piecing", then acknowledge the anniversary. I suggest you keep it very low key. Nothing over the top.

Have no expectations! Keep it simple, and place no pressure on her.

[hoosjim]

She leans in. She pulls back. She leans in. She pulls back.

We actually talked about Anniversary. Came up in context of us not wearing our rings and her parents appearing not to notice. Agreed to do nothing "big", because we are in kind of weird place, but wanted to acknowledge/honor the date. Went out to see a band at a local dive bar at her suggestion last night before because didn't think we were going to be free actual day of. I bought her an orange rose (friendship to romance), but that was it.

She's alternatingly warming up a bit and then pulling back. She's not going out at all unless with me, but she's in a place now where I hate to leave her home alone because 1) she's in a serious funk at times and 2) she often defaults to texting/calling with bff, who is in a NASTY mood right now because her H (MY best friend) has finally stopped enabling her wayward behavior-- too late to save his marriage, unfortunately as the D is finalized in 2 weeks, but it is definitely ticked her off and hasn't made her already nasty disposition towards me any sweeter. At any rate, W's bff is not generally where I want W focusing her time right now.

She had reiterated a couple of times that she was really happy with the person I'd become and that she wanted to try and work on our MR "including IC and MC" BUT she even gets somewhat hot and cold on that (I think). She has a built in excuse right now as her office (she works for a surgeon's office) is switching to this new automated patient processing/info/accounting/billing system that is making her work extra stressful, has cancelled any leave for the employees over the next three weeks, and, for her in particular as she is the only one in the office with no training on the new system, has ramped up the stress in an already stressful workplace and made it extremely difficult (though not impossible) for her to get home in time for tele-medicine sessions or find time for a session at lunch. So, we had gone ahead and scheduled a planning session with the MC to schedule several IC and then MC session for this Wednesday, but had also penciled in a coming Friday (early October) for four hours of "intensive) to include both IC and one joint session. But now she's waffling on that saying that that is a training week and she just cant take the day off. Subsequent weeks have other issues, like family weekend at my son's college. Thinking maybe this is a sign?

Trying to walk a fine line between not pressuring her but still making some progress.

Unless she is contacting from work, or being VERY dilligent about "cleaning" her cell phone, she is not contacting OM.

On my end, GAL is becoming somewhat stagnant as I feel weird going out with friends without her when she feels like she can't go out with her friends (primarily bff solo) so she and I end up doing alot of things together... but there is no "spark" most of the time. Sometimes it seems there is but then she always douses it. I feel like if she were any other woman but W with whom I was in this position I could have seduced her by now, lol, but... wow... Just seems weird some times and she really is moody and mercurial.

[Ginger1]

Something you might want to start thinking about is being able to do things with friends separately. I think it is commendable that you don't go out with friends while she is not "allowed" to. Doing things together right now is great, that needs to be focused on, but in the future, when you gain more trust, I do think it is really healthy to be able to have separate friendships and activities.

That will be a test one day. When you can trust her to be alone or go out with friends. Because to have a healthy marriage that trust will have to be regained. One day.

[sandi2]

How are you doing, Jim?

[hoosjim]

How are you doing, Jim?

Read a post of yours on another thread a coupla days back, a good one giving a good summary of changing the dynamic with a WW, and it struck me that I am probably in a place where my own W has not had to "work hard enough" to get me back. Not that this is any kind of news. She never went through any lengthy period of "missing me", and her efforts to regain my trust have mostly been of her own initiative, though she has done a few of the things I specified and, as I have also posted her previously, appears to be doing "nothing wrong" right now. She's moody and sulky quite a bit, but doesn't go out of the house for the most part unless its to do something with me. I have curtailed my own "single" activities a bit except for fitness-related stuff because I don't like leaving her alone at the house to stew (and text and talk with her extremely and increasingly toxic bff) and because I feel kind of funny going out "single" when she herself is forgoing that.

She has said she keeps thinking about IC, and it came up in our session with our joint MC on Wednesday (who we scheduled something with just to try to figure out "where we are going.") The MC is more than happy to serve as the IC for us both, and has recommended that we both have some IC as a foundation for further couples work.

W also says it seems like right now "we have everything except that one piece" (intimacy/romance/etc) which, obviously, is a pretty big piece, and that the thought of having those sorts of interactions with me still seem "awkward" and "weird" to her. To me, this speaks to the fact that she never had time to really "miss" me and redevelop that "pull". Now, we are kind of stuck in this limbo trying to figure out how to "get that back". MC says it can happen but that, even if the couple is committed to trying (which W says she is) it can often take a full year from last contact with the affair partner. MC seems to be advising sort of the same "take it slow, no pressure but yet you're still going to have to make an affirmative effort and choice to re-engage intimately" that the DB coach seemed to be advocating.

For the record, we are only 7 weeks out, I think (and assuming there have been no slip ups) from "last contact" with OM.

I personally am doing "fine", I suppose. I'd love for things to move faster but realize if there is to be any hope for a permanent reconciliation and the awesome marriage that I "Want", that that cant happen. I enjoy our casual times "out" together that we have once or twice a week (nothing "romantic"... she still comes by my Thursday hangout after she gets off work, and then sometimes we'll just get out of the house to go see a band-- live music is a pretty good atmosphere for us right now-- gives us something to talk about and covers up the silences when we are not talking although those silences are less and less these days) and we have had some really really good, happy, lighthearted (but unplanned) family moments in the past couple of weeks. I mean, she's right, everything about our interactions these days is as good as, if not better, than at any time since we were newlyweds. There's just not that "spark" or passion on her part. (I'd jump her in a moment, of course, but I've been playing it WAY cool in that regard lately.) Even when she's distant or in a funk, I've been doing pretty well. I've increasingly realized I have a lot going for me and will be just fine if for some reason things don't work out. I still have... what I'll call panic attacks from time to time where I wonder where she is and what she's doing like when she was a bit late getting home a coupla weeks back (that I posted about at the time), but those are getting less frequent. OM actually texted me twice in the past couple of weeks, which threw me for a bit of an angry loop-- don't know if he's just that stupid to think he can be friends with either or both of us again, if he's trying to insinuate himself back in her life again through me or (my paranoid side talking) if he is contacting her or trying to and trying to throw me off the scent by nicing up to me. The first time I responded to him and reminded him to stay the hell away not just from my wife but from me and my whole family, and the second time I didn't respond at all. My last interaction with him (the confrontation) was not pleasant for me and brought up a raft of negative, dark, feelings and emotions.

We (W and I) definitely have things to work through. MC and DB coach both agree that that work HAS to be done... that we have to work through the hurt we both caused each other. W, however, definitely has some issues that will need to be worked through in IC. She says that she no longer feels that anger towards me that she did for so long (and I can see in her interactions with me which are increasingly "warm" that this is so-- can't remember the last time now that we had a fight or disagreement or even a painful conversation that was not related to the OM/A) but she clearly has some other things to work through-- Her feeling that she "doesn't really know who she is", that she keeps getting stuck between "Who other people thinks she should be and who she wants to be", that she feels like she's "not as good a person as people think she is or maybe that she should be", that she's a "hot mess", and that she is not happy with how she looks right now, especially weight-wise (which is ridiculous because she's a knock out.) Anyway, a lot of stuff. And not clear how she gets into IC. Her schedule at work is CRAZY busy right now-- she's working like 50 hour weeks and prolly will be for the next 3-4 weeks, and, to boot, while she is comfortable with the MC as a "MC", she is "not sure" how comfortable she would be with her as an "IC". Some of this has to do, I think, with the fact that I have consulted the MC previously as an IC and some of it has to do, I think, with the fact that the MC is a person of strong faith who sometimes (pretty rarely but still sometimes) brings that into the counseling at least obliquely, and my wife's own faith (Cahtolic with all the attendant guilt) is something she is currently "Struggling" with.

Phew.

That enough for now?

[hoosjim]

And the "not going out at all" thing with her is completely voluntary. She told me the other day she's doing it because she knows I still have problems trusting her and that her going out right now, even to do errands, might be uncomfortable for me. After I had that sort of mini-meltdown when she was late getting home from work. She said she could see the pain and hurt and anger in my face that night, and didn't want to cause that in me.

[sandi2]

Read a post of yours on another thread a coupla days back, a good one giving a good summary of changing the dynamic with a WW, and it struck me that I am probably in a place where my own W has not had to "work hard enough" to get me back. Not that this is any kind of news. She never went through any lengthy period of "missing me"

Glad the post helped. Yes, this is certainly not a fun time for either of you. If she is legit, then she is doing some hard work now. Remember, her work won't look the same as yours for a while. If she can lick the withdrawals of the A chemicals, and she is really being transparent........it is work.....not all the work by any means, but still part of it. If she's not legit, then it's only a matter of time that she'll start making excuses to meet her old BFF, halfway of course, to spend the weekend. She'll have to use some excuse to get away.......to see OM. Currently, I really don't know what more you can do, until you feel more confident that she is being honest. If she does have a backslide, then you can decide if you want to be MIA. And, should she backslide, you had better make a believer of her, that you are dropping her. Nothing violent, just be cool.

She has said she keeps thinking about IC, and it came up in our session with our joint MC on Wednesday (who we scheduled something with just to try to figure out "where we are going.")

I think reconciling couples should do whatever they feel is necessary to help themselves and/or their MR. It also helps to keep the couple on track, so to speak. The MC would probably give you ways to help the R progress, instead of sitting in limbo. Left on your own, is so hard to manage the fallout from the A.

W also says it seems like right now "we have everything except that one piece" (intimacy/romance/etc) which, obviously, is a pretty big piece, and that the thought of having those sorts of interactions with me still seem "awkward" and "weird" to her. To me, this speaks to the fact that she never had time to really "miss" me and redevelop that "pull"

You may be right, but I think it is b/c she still has the OM in her head. I hope you will fight the urge to "do something", b/c she is just getting started. It's more than her just not contacting OM. She has to stop fantasizing about him, and thinking about the "what ifs".

MC says it can happen but that, even if the couple is committed to trying (which W says she is) it can often take a full year from last contact with the affair partner. MC seems to be advising sort of the same "take it slow, no pressure but yet you're still going to have to make an affirmative effort and choice to re-engage intimately" that the DB coach seemed to be advocating.

The "just do it" concept from MWD helps overcome the awkward & weird feelings, but it may take longer than a year for her to start feeling the attraction, it depends on the individual situation. How would you feel about it, if she was willing to have sex on a regular basis.......but did not feel a lot of sexual attraction yet? It can be a sticky situation with egos getting in the way, b/c it's so personal and can easily cause negative feelings. Since the sex was lacking previously, I think you both need professional guidance here, as to ensure a better MR.

we have had some really really good, happy, lighthearted (but unplanned) family moments in the past couple of weeks. I mean, she's right, everything about our interactions these days is as good as, if not better, than at any time since we were newlyweds.

Wow! That's is wonderful, Jim! I think it is a good sign. The more laughter and happy moments, the better.

I still have... what I'll call panic attacks from time to time where I wonder where she is and what she's doing like when she was a bit late getting home a coupla weeks back (that I posted about at the time), but those are getting less frequent.

From what I have read, that is fairly common when the S has cheated. Another topic for the counselor. What do you do when you have these panic attacks? Breathing techniques, some type of mental exercise, talk, or what?

The first time I responded to him and reminded him to stay the hell away not just from my wife but from me and my whole family, and the second time I didn't respond at all. My last interaction with him (the confrontation) was not pleasant for me and brought up a raft of negative, dark, feelings and emotions.

He must have been feeling you out. Crazy! It's a little hard to believe he would text you, and yet.... not text your W. If he did contact her some way.....even if she told him to get lost, she may not feel she can tell you since she saw your pain when she was late going home one evening. My advice is not to ask questions about her whereabouts or the OM. Let the questioning die out, but still keep tabs on her until you are sure. If she thinks you aren't watching, she'll slip up if she is not being legit. I think you are wise not to leave her home along right now, since OM has poked you.

Her feeling that she "doesn't really know who she is", that she keeps getting stuck between "Who other people thinks she should be and who she wants to be", that she feels like she's "not as good a person as people think she is or maybe that she should be", that she's a "hot mess", and that she is not happy with how she looks right now, especially weight-wise (which is ridiculous because she's a knock out.)

Yep, feelings I know well. And, of course she's a knockout. This is a big, big part for turning to the OM. I think some wives have the thinking that their husband thinks she's a knockout........b/c he's her H and he loves her. It's as if his compliments are not as rich as having another guy tell her. She thinks you have to tell her, but if another man tells her.......then it must be true! That's how a lot of men get into the lives of vulnerable, unhappy wives. They just feed her ego.

Glad to hear from you. I am hoping, so hard, that you both get the help you need to heal and be happy together.

[hoosjim]

If she's not legit, then it's only a matter of time that she'll start making excuses to meet her old BFF, halfway of course, to spend the weekend. She'll have to use some excuse to get away.......to see OM.... My advice is not to ask questions about her whereabouts or the OM. Let the questioning die out, but still keep tabs on her until you are sure. If she thinks you aren't watching, she'll slip up if she is not being legit. I think you are wise not to leave her home along right now, since OM has poked you.

So, how would you advise handling it if/when she wants to go "see the bff?" I ask because this is a very real possibility, soon, I think. She told me just a couple of days ago that, even though she was doing the "stay at home" thing, she was starting to get a little bit of those "trapped" feelings she used to get when she used to think she couldn't go out because of me (and I acted somewhat surprised, because I don't remember EVER being jealous or anything other than completely trusting of her, at least until the advent of the "A"). That conversation was one reason I backed way off on my own "single" outings. I know also that she has been mourning not only loss of the "A", but "loss" of the bff (who she hasn't "seen" in nearly a month.) And remember, these two are lifelong, and not just "casual" friends, who share EVERYTHING. They are, and probably have always been even during their respective marriages, each others' "go to" person. Now, that is not necessarily a good sitch for me, but it is what it is. I know that she "wants to see" bff, even aside from any potential OM involvement. I also know that bff currently has a pretty toxic view of me and my friends and obviously was an enabler in the past. I finally know that bff is going to be freed up starting tomorrow when my own best friend comes back to town and takes the kids. I can practically gaurantee that bff will invite her out to dinner, and possibly to come visit her (about an hours drive to the South) which would possibly implicate an overnight stay.

How would you suggest handling this when it arises, because the place she is now she will surely ask me "is it okay if I go."? Do I say: "under the circumstances I can't believe you would even ask me that"? Or alternatively say "I am trying very hard to trust you right now" and state my concerns about the bff (amongst which is bff's view that any woman, including my spouse, asking her husband if it is "okay" to go out, EVER, is week and stupid and controlled and foolish and should NEVER have to or want to ask her husband, but just go) and bff's role in enabling the "A"; Or say "I don't need to trust your bff, I just have to trust you? Do you feel like you are at the point where you can trust yourself in that situation." Or, finally, perhaps act as if nothing at all is wrong and say nothing.

Because it WILL come up. Book it.

The "just do it" concept from MWD helps overcome the awkward & weird feelings,

Been looking for where MWD talks about this and can't find it. I have both the DB and DR books, but I tend to be kind of a "deliberate" reader, and scanning is not my forte. Could you tell me what chapter(s) her take on this is found in? Is it in the new book, maybe, which I haven't read yet?

[hoosjim]

The more I think about my last post, the more burned I get that I even have to CONSIDER how to handle it. What is the real tipping point for me right now is thinking what I would do or how I would feel and how she would feel/react/etc. if the situation were reversed. (and, honestly, how most people anywhere would react, IMO.) If I had cheated on her, and my best friend had been a regular presence at social engagements with me and OW, and same best friend had lied to cover up my A, and same best friend had allowed me to use his address as a mailing and return point for packages I wanted to send to OW, and same friend had befriended the OW as well as OW's circle of friends and regularly communicated and hung out with them, and same best friend had served as a go-between and liaison for communications between me and OW when my wife started to suspect, and same best friend had also just been revealed to be in an A and cheating on his OWN wife... THERE'S NO WAY IN H**L my W would agree to let me go anywhere NEAR my best friend, LET ALONE go somewhere "overnight" with him. And, quite honestly, if I was in the situation of truly trying to "fix" my marriage after having had such affair, I don't think it would even cross my mind to ask my wife if I could go out with that friend or to otherwise propose something of that sort.

Am I wrong to think this? And to think that her even asking to do so would be a big big BIG red flag at this juncture?

[Ginger1]

I think you are borrowing distress from something that hasn't even happened.

[hoosjim]

I think you are borrowing distress from something that hasn't even happened.

Youre right, you're right. Gotta stop spinning. Old habits die hard. Wait and see.

[joejoe1]

I think you are right to feel that way. If she asked you to spend with her knowing how you feel about her( hopefully you made it known how you feel about her). Then I would think my wife wasnt as committed as she needed to be. If this is bothering that bad you need to talk it out.

Because if she goes with this friend this time, when is the stopping point of her calling this friend a friend.

[sandi2]

So, how would you advise handling it if/when she wants to go "see the bff?" I ask because this is a very real possibility, soon, I think.

I don't think you can, or should, try to control her from seeing the BFF. I'm just saying it could be an excuse to see OM. If she cheats, you will eventually know it b/c you'll fit the pieces together.

If she asks if she can go stay with the BFF, tell her she is an adult who makes her own decisions. In other words, you don't give her permission, nor do you preach her a sermon. I suggest you tell her to do what she believes she is strong enough to handle at this point. You put the responsibility of the decision on her. Don't bring up the subject of trust, etc. This will be a test for her. She may pass with flying colors, especially since her and BFF haven't seen each other in a month.

Quote:
The "just do it" concept from MWD helps overcome the awkward & weird feelings,

Been looking for where MWD talks about this and can't find it. I have both the DB and DR books, but I tend to be kind of a "deliberate" reader, and scanning is not my forte. Could you tell me what chapter(s) her take on this is found in? Is it in the new book, maybe, which I haven't read yet?

I think it was in her Sexually Starved Marriage book. It's been a while since I've read it.

[hoosjim]

Okay, so I now have what is a little bit of a 911 situation here. Something that I think has to be addressed, but I'm not really sure how. I had not been monitoring my wife for checking up on her for the past few weeks. Both people on this board, as well as my coach, and my counselor, and indicated that periodic checks, however, would be appropriate, until I was more comfortable that she was on the straight and narrow. So, as I indicated might be the case in an earlier post, she did ask if she could go see her BFF for dinner at BFFs house about an hour south of here, and then possibly staying over. My response to her was much as Sandy had recommended which was to say that it was a question of what she felt she was ready for and whether or not she felt she could trust herself in that situation. She said that she could, and she went down there. I put the tracker on her car to keep tabs, and she didn't stray from what her path was supposed to be. Nor did she go out after she got to Bff house. A couple of things she has said in the couple of days since made me a bit uncomfortable though, so I put a recorder in her car, because I know that's when she does most of her talking Two BFF, and also when she used to do her talking to the OM. What I find basically is that BFF is now not even pretending to be neutral but is actively trying to encourage my wife to come see the OM. The phone call I captured actually arguably even includes a no-contact violation wind BFF walks into the OM Hangout and says "I'm here, I have Mrs hoosjim on the phone, and OM shouts "hi", wish you were here" and w says to Bff in phone " tell them I said hi". The BFF initiated this phone call basically as BFF was walking into the hangout bar of the OM. First, she talks briefly about her day, and then tells my wife do you want to come over to this place to talk about our days, they have a really good band playing. My wife responds "I really really want to, but you know I'm not supposed to". To which BFF responds "yeah, doing what your supposed to, I remember living my life that way." (sarcasm). This preceded the exchange of "hellos" between W and OM and his crew. Then bff says to W, "are you crying" and W says "yeah". Then bff says, "well, I am meeting (unintelligable-- I think the name of a female friend) at [restaurant "a"] later, do you want to join us?" To which W ansqers "no". Bff says "text u later."

I HATE Lthis woman (bff) with a purple passion. Obviously very delicate time for W, and I got this working against me. Should I confront her, and if so, how? Maybe not say I heard convo with bff, but just that I think she needs to not see her? Reminder that she and bff aRe VERY old and VERY close friends. I don't see how w and I reconcile or rekindle with bff interfering. I know wife will probably slip. And dammit if this doesnt equal a breaking of "no contact" to the extent it sets back my W's recovery.

Do I just cut the cord? Confront her on some level? Let it pass abd hope fir best?
Put out contract on bff? Kick OM'S ass? I'm really at a loss here. We have had such a good couple of days, and a really fun, close, laughing good time last night.





I mean, my point is is that I think she would have a chance If BFF would just leave her alone. But I don't think she will make that move on her own, and if I try to force it, or if I tell her I've been checking up on her again and know about that conversation, then that will probably be the end for us.

[sandi2]

I think your W did very well, considering the pressure put on her. I am hoping that the separation from BFF will help W to see things clearly.

I'm not in favor of confronting her. She turned down the temptation. Don't let her know you are recording her.

[hoosjim]

Sandi thanks. This is just so frustrating... and enraging. My W TRUSTS this bff... Maybe more than anyone else she knows (she and I had that convo not long ago about which of our respective friends we thought we could truly trust) and this wayward b***h, pardon the vulgarity, who betrayed my own friend and wrecked her own marriage, is now using that trust to try to lead my wife down a wayward path and wreck MY marriage and MY family. And just when it was starting to look like their might be some light! She is daily in touch with this woman lately (pretty much since bff's divorce from my buddy started getting nasty and bff stopped getting everything she wanted.) And bff is very influential... outgoing, life of the party type, successful businesswoman, etc. I just.... AAARGH!!! I am actually getting MADDER about it the more time passes.

We have been having some "light" MR talks that NC suggested we have, not too often but like once a week, until she has had a chance to see us individually, and I almost feel like I should work in a "given the role bff played on the past, do you feel like she is,someone who will support your effortS to rebuild our marriage, someone you can trust to help you out here rather than pull you in the wrong direction?"

I also feel like I will need to check up on her a little more frequently, which I hate, becsuse it damages trust.

Oh, and am I right to assume that this little bff-contrived incident (hearing OM'S voice saying "hi", etc, leading to tears, may have set back her "recovery"?

Grrrrrrr.....

[sandi2]

Listen Jim, you must get control of your anger or she will feel it's directed toward her. Yes, you have cause to mistrust and be angry at the BFF.....but you surely knew the day would come that your W would have to choose which way she'd go.

I thought by the way you talked about BFF moving off it was a long ways, but an hour's drive is nothing. I'm very surprised they have been apart this long.

Have you used all your phone sessions with your DB coach? Maybe they could help you, until the MC can tackle this issue of the BFF pressuring your W.

Oh, and am I right to assume that this little bff-contrived incident (hearing OM'S voice saying "hi", etc, leading to tears, may have set back her "recovery"?

Hearing his voice might, but that's not necessarily why she was crying. I mean, the best scenario is she could be crying b/c she sees her friend putting pressure on her to cheat. Of course, you may be right, but this is a test she'll face at some point. I just wish she'd had more time behind her in the withdrawal period.

I almost feel like I should work in a "given the role bff played on the past, do you feel like she is,someone who will support your effortS to rebuild our marriage, someone you can trust to help you out here rather than pull you in the wrong direction?"

I wish you had already said something along these lines, instead of waiting till now. Personally, I feel the more you say about the BFF, at this point, the more it could turn your W sour at you.....and make it easier to rebel. It is a delicate time, and you will not be able to control your W's decisions.

I want you to be prepared for something, Jim. Your W may go to the bar to see OM, just to see if she still feels the spark. Or her dear friend may bring the OM to surprise your W, since she is trying to hook them up together. There are many things that could happen. So, brace yourself. The best outcome would be for your W to really see this as it is......and there is always that possibility. I think it depends on how much progress she has made the past few weeks. It is going to be tough for her to have the courage to part ways from her BFF, but she may do it in order to save her M.

I hope you'll post an update to let us know how she appeared when she came home.

[hoosjim]

I hope you'll post an update to let us know how she appeared when she came home.

Oh, she was a little bit sulky and reserved, though at the time I did not know about the phoncon with bff. It was later that same night that the two of us went out and really had an excellent fun time together, and she steadily warmed up as the night went on.

But... Rough week in general for her-- a close college friend passed away. She just went to the services. On way back, she did a pretty far out of the way drive by of OM's hangout, which, to my knowledge, she hasn't done in a looooong time.

I thought by the way you talked about BFF moving off it was a long ways, but an hour's drive is nothing. I'm very surprised they have been apart this long.

If and when bff moves away (please please PLEASE dear Lord let that happen) it will be very far away... over 800 miles away in Florida. For right now, bff is stuck in her current town about an hour south of her at least until her D from my friend is,finalized. Until then, she continues to come up here at least a couple days each week for work. (Unless she is travelling, which she had been doing quite a bit of lately. She wants to move to Fla because that's where her own AP lives.


And the reason my W was crying I'm pretty sure was from missing OM and his circle of friends. She did, after all, tell her bff to "say hi" and then texted the same thing to bff a little later that afternoon (yes, I checked), though by that time bff had left the bar. (Which makes me think her primary purpose for going there was to entice/tempt my W to go... grrrrrr....)

Important dynamic to note is that BFF has a completely different view of how it is appropriate for married couples to interact and communicate. She has ALWAYS given my wife crap, even 15-20 years ago when we were first married, whenever she'd ask my W to go do something and my W would say "let me check with hoosjim." I mean, that's just like common courtesy you'd do for ANY family member you were living with, and DEFINITELY for a spouse. But BFF thinks you should just be able to walk out of the house, without explanation of anything, and come back whenever you want without saying anything to spouse about it. Anything more is "Controlling." And now that BFF is, once again, single, it puts a serious crimp in her lifestyle for HER bff (my W) to be shackled down to a marriage.

[hoosjim]

Man, since Friday, with the exception of some very fun and light moments when we were out Friday night, W has REALLY been in a funk. Like, barely talking, withdrawn, when she does talk has lapsed back into talking about how she should just run away and "live in a box on the beach and be a WalMart greeter". Very moody with the kids. As a reminder, a good college friend of hers passed away about 10 days ago, and then her bff hit her with a phone call "hello" from OM and crew Friday afternoon that got her crying. No wonder she's turmoiled.

Wondering how I can "be there for her" without overbearing her. She doesn't seem to want to talk (I've asked)or to do anything to take her mind of things. Just stewing. We have a joint MC session tonight to decide where we are going to go specifically with the IC and then MC in the future. That should be interesting. I asked her if she wanted to postpone it since she'd been having such a rough week already and she said "no", so guess it's a go.

[sandi2]

Well, sounds as if she's had a setback, alright..... which is understandable. Her best friend is adding a lot of pressure to her struggles.

What I suggest you do is to be as much fun as possible, and show PMA around her. No pressure from you.

Although the BFF has been a powerful influence, I believe at some point your W will be able to see her for what's doing to the M. Your job is to be strong and give loving support to your W. Lots of validation at this time. No fault finding. No advice in what she should do, unless she seriously asks you. And the really tough one......don't talk down about the BFF.

If you point out what the BFF is doing, it could cause your W to go into defense mode. It's time for your W to make some very hard decisions. She obviously doesn't want to be the position she's facing (thus her comment about being in a box). She feels the pressure. She's depressed. Keep her as busy as possible doing enjoyable activities, but don't smother or press too hard (if that makes sense). If she starts getting angry, back away.

Maybe a family weekend trip away (this coming weekend) would help. If not possible, have some activity planned.

I believe the next two weeks will be critical for her. Who she turns to, and the decisions she makes. As I said before, she may have to contact him one more time. And if she does, be ready to walk.....unless she can convince you she is really over OM and will part ways with BFF. That's JMHO.

I hope the MC can help.

[hoosjim]

Seems like a good place to start a new thread. Here goes:

My Lucky 7th Thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2764291&#Post2764291