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This is my 6th thread. My previous thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2756115&page=1

In a nutshell, my profile is down there at the bottom. After a long period of neglect, definitely classifiable as a "sex-starved marriage", my W began EA with a close friend last fall (first thought it was November, but have since found it was really October that all the texting started) after I had gone to him for help with my M and basically revealed my W's vulnerabilities. There had been warning signs-- she had come to me a couple three times over past two years telling me how sad/lonely/lost/dead-inside she felt, and I pretty much turned it back on her every time, though one time I did ask her "not to leave" when it looked like she was going to. Anyway, BD in January when I overhear convo between her and OM. I was weak and desperate at first, but within less than two weeks after BD was really doing a great job with GAL's and 180s, and W noticed. Problem was, she was not a WAW but rather a WW, wanting to enjoy the single life, "girls gone wild" lifestyle with her single/divorced/separated friends. I didn't handle my interactions with her all that well for a few weeks, wavering between "pursuit" and enablement. Finally got buckled down. Looked like A was going to or had even already died of natural causes... and then something happened. Still dont' know what. A meet up or night out or party or something and it rekindled. W bought a burner phone which I later found out about. Beginning of June I tell her my boundary that "I wont share her or live in an open marriage". She indicates that cheater phone is gone and she will NC with OM. There is a big blow up night only a week later where she, I and her bff (also a WW and sometimes enable of my own W's affair) had too much to drink, said too much, and my W ended up sneaking out after we went home to meet up with bff and OM. She did NOT know I knew about this, and I did not confront her thinking we could "use a reset" based on events. I do put up some surveillance on her and late June, not long before we are to start intensive therapy, I "catch" her in two fairly intimate/emotional encounters with OM. I go dark for four days during which she pursues me relentlessly. She finally corners me into a talk where she talks about all the things SHE did wrong in our MR that led us to this point... and then I tell her what i know about her and OM. She then takes several steps (without promising me full transparency or committing fully to working on MR) that lead me to believe she is really "Trying" in her own way. This turns out to be false as of 7/23 when I find out she has purchased a second burner phone and she confesses to fairly regular text and phone contact with OM. I walked off and left her at car that, slept in separate BR, etc. and pretty much "go dark". She keeps after me by phone and text for two days, eventually corners me into a convo, says tearfully that she is sorry she hurt me, that she had been "working up to" cold-turkey no contact with OM (a self-contradiction, yes) and that she had called OM to break it off and destroyed her extra phone (heard that one before) and that she wanted to work on trying to "figure us out." I tell her that it's not going to be that easy, that I am not sure that I can or should trust her and not sure that I want to try to work things out any more. A week later (8/1, I think), I confront OM and, in an ugly exchange, tell him I know everything and to stay away from my wife and family. While somewhat cathartic for me on some level, this brings back a lot of pain and hurtful feelings/memories for both me and W. We talk about it and she is still bothered by thought that she has "hurt" OM and that he may have been further "hurt" by my confrontation. She also says she is "not sure" what she wants to do about us. I listen but say little. That weekend, we talk again, and I reiterate that "maybe we need some time on our own" and she says (for what seems like the 20th time) that she is tired of all the "pain" and "negativity" and wishes we could just push the "reset" button and let "Monday be Monday and Tuesday by Tuesday without all the painful relationship talk." She also thinks we should just try to "be in the moment" and "try to have fun". I tell her that I am not willing to keep living with the uncertainty, that I am still not certain I can trust her, and that if she wanted to, as she said, "work on figuring us out" I would need some things, including solid assurances the OM was "gone" and to know that she was committed to the process and that we'd get professional help. That was the last "R" talk we had. She has been coming by my watering hole and hanging out with me, once by invitation, twice on kind of her own initiative, but otherwise we are kind of in limbo. Sleeping mostly separately (I have claimed the "better" bedroom but we have had company for a handful of nights recently which pushes me out of there.) I am probably going to force the issue here by end of weekend-- tell her I need some time to myself.

Feels like I'm actually making some progress personally, even if my M is not.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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Jim

if you are making progress as a man, that is progress. I doubt the marriage could make real progress without someone moving forward on their own, first.

And you are.

It's hard to measure progress when it's you, other than bigger gaps between anxious moments, and maybe not as intense. And it's not linear.

I have said that ^^ a million times but it's really sinking in more now. We turn corners and then realize there is another corner to get past, b/c this really truly is a marathon.

But it's not endless, and at some point you'll look around and see how far you've come.

Keep at it.

((( )))


PS,

Oh, btw, I was thinking you could use some paragraph breaks to make it easier to read your posts. Just a thought.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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She also says she is "not sure" what she wants to do about us. I listen but say little. That weekend, we talk again, and I reiterate that "maybe we need some time on our own" and she says (for what seems like the 20th time) that she is tired of all the "pain" and "negativity" and wishes we could just push the "reset" button and let "Monday be Monday and Tuesday by Tuesday without all the painful relationship talk." She also thinks we should just try to "be in the moment" and "try to have fun


Having fun, living in the moment, and not having to deal with what she sees as negativity is a wayward W saying that she doesn't want to do the necessary work to save her M. She still wants to keep one foot in her wayward lifestyle she has carved out with her BFF and possibly OM ......or seeing other men in general. (She may replace OM1 for OM2). She has the BFF whispering in her ear playing up the fun, wayward lifestyle........and playing down the MR and the H as "negativity" in her life. Until she is willing to give up that behavior and lifestyle and accept responsibility for her actions, she is not going to do what is best for the MR. She whines b/c she does not want to go through the mental and emotional work required to have a better MR.

There have been few WW's I have observed that were anxious to give up the so-called fun (GGW stuff and OM) and buckle down to dedicating themselves to do whatever it took to heal the broken MR and achieve a healthy and happy relationship with their spouse. In other words, if a WW can get around the remose factor, and the commitment factor, and thrashing out the issues that existed before the rebellion and those that came b/c of the rebellion...........oh, and don't forget the withdrawal period that is hell for her, well, yeah.......she wants to bypass all of that b/c it is hardly a fun and carefree activity for her. Therefore, she sees the solution as hitting the reset button, and just pretend none of this happened.

There have been countless accounts of LBH's who wanted to hit the reset button, too. They had the idea that their former W would show up again. Didn't happen. B/c the reset button does not work well with human beings. We are not some tech app that can easily delete the files we no longer want in our history. To do so, would be saying it never really happened. Humans have to sort through it and learn why it happened and how to go forward in healing. We have learned this about childhood traumas as well as adult trauma. If it is not mentally and emotionally dealt with, it messes with the head. It's the same in this situation. This has been traumatic for the MR. If the betrayed H takes back his WW without having certain requirements from her, things will crop up, b/c the issues were not resolved. He discovers he is faced with emotions and thoughts that, perhaps, were shoved to the back burner while he was trying to hang on to his WW. His mind is not allowing him to simply ignore the betrayal, insult, and disrespect he suffered. The anger and resentment gets stronger, as he sees his WW acting as if nothing happened. She doesn't wish to discuss the matter any longer, b/c it is negativity for her. It is similar to an abuser who does not want to acknowledge their terrible acts forced upon another human. The abuser had rather keep it in the past and not rehash it. They claim they see no purpose, but actually, they don't want to take responsibility for it. So, the LBH (the abused) struggles moving forward b/c he is unable to heal, and she is the constant salt in his wound. He asks himself what did she lose due to her actions? What has she suffered due to her selfish choices? How can she act as if none of that was real, when his emotions and trust have been left scarred? Does she even care about his feelings?

Many times the H becomes the WAH after reconciliation. More so, when the WW has not shown remorse for her actions and how they affected him. When he sees no effort from her, no loving attitude of commitment......but rather a reluctance she makes well known in her own familiar way. He walks away to save himself from the abuser.

Yes, it is vitally important that the couple does not buy into the reset button lie. In order for the M to stand a chance of surviving and thriving.......she has to go through the process. Otherwise, she continues to be a wayward wife.........and the results will rear its ugly head in a matter of time.

I have seen some misquotes that say I believe the WW has to reach rock bottom. Actually, it is not necessary for every WW to hit rock bottom if she repents and turns back from her waywardness. However, those who are so hell bent in destroying their M and families, often have to experience rock bottom before their spirits are humbled enough to see the truth in their own wayward ways. It's up to them if they want to do the right thing or not. Some never do, b/c of the massive destruction they caused, they can't live with the truth and choose to turn a blind eye and lie to themselves........rather than facing and accepting the truth about themselves. As long as they can blame and justify.......they will cling to their waywardness instead of going through the painful process of correcting it. In other words, as longs as it works for them in some slim capacity......it is easier for them to continue the wayward road. I didn't hit rock bottom, in which I am so grateful, b/c the level I did hit was plenty for this old gal. I do believe the wayward will not get her eyes fully opened enough to be humbled at her destruction, until she suffers some type of personal lose or experiences consequences from her decisions.

In time, she may live to regret her descisions, but she may see it as being too late, b/c her H has moved on (often with another W and family). Remorse is a form of deep regret, and I believe it is a heavy sorrow and a sense of shame for the actions one chooses. It allows no self pity, no pride, no blame, no ego.........whatsoever. It is accepting full responsibility..........and, yes, feeling the horrible guit that engulfs the soul. Until she reaches this point, the hope of having a healthy, happy, fulfilled MR is not on the horizon, IMHO.

I never physically left the home. Emotionally, yes for quite some time. After coming to the board and being mentored by what I consider to be the best of the best.......it took me another two years before I began to feel remorse. I felt regret as soon as my deeds bit me in the butt, however, I was filled with so much resentment toward my H that it pushed out any chance of remorse. I couldn't sleep at night. The mental pictures and all the "what-ifs" playing over & over in my head kept the A alive. Every night from the time I got home from work, I would be here on the board. I would nearly collapse from exhaustion before going to bed. Finally, when I was willing to forgive my H of everything I resented in our marital history.........I could go to him with a humble, broken spirit that held no arrogance or stubborn pride and tell him how truly sorry I was for the pain I caused him. I realized if my H could forgive me for what I had done to him, then surely I could forgive him for the things I resented. That night I slept. Was there something I lost due to my selfish decisions? You bet! Every WW has something that is more precious than, perhaps, she even realized........until she loses it.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Yes, it is vitally important that the couple does not buy into the reset button lie. In order for the M to stand a chance of surviving and thriving.......she has to go through the process. Otherwise, she continues to be a wayward wife.........and the results will rear its ugly head in a matter of time.


Sandi, excellent insights as always, thanks, and I pretty much completely agree. I of course understand the importance of (once piecing) building positive memories and taking time to have fun, etc., but... all that seems to me like it is a waste if it is done before all the hurtful stuff is worked out. How can you ever trust the "good stuff" or the "happy part of your life together" if there is still that mistrust and hurt and negativity floating around that never got resolved?

My one conundrum now is how to close that loop with my W. I could have completely gone dark, dropped rope, etc. in the aftermath of the last betrayal/revelation (when I found her second burner phone and she spilled her guts), and I did, after a fashion, for about a week. During that time, she became very sad, weepy, constantly contacting me, expressed her sorrow repeatedly, wanted to try to "figure us out", volunteered some transparency, etc., and to all appearances has cut contact with OM (finally) and is a mopey, moody person now to boot. (Still frequent contact with the extremely bad influence bff, though, although there has been no enablement or go-betweening with OM that I can discern, and I have checked a couple of times.) At the end of that week, I let myself get drawn into two "MR" conversations with her, where I told her if she was serious about wanting to "work things out" that there were a few things I "needed", including some concrete assurance of NC with OM, confirmation that her burner phone had been destroyed (she said she would get me the number from bff so I could verify, but has not yet done so and bff has been back stateside for nearly a week-- I have not repeated the request), continued transparency (which she has done, actually, always letting me know where she is, etc.) and a commitment to actually work on our problems-- including getting professional help-- and that, especially under the circumstances, I wasn't going to accept or be satisfied with the status quo and her just "hanging out" with me to "see how that feels."

She actually backpedaled a bit during that last convo, said she was done with OM, but didn't know now if she did in fact want to "work on us" in any organized fashion right now--the constant hard MR conversations were taking a toll on her "psyche"-- but maybe just wanted to hit the reset button and try building some positive momentum and that she was tired of the up-down roller coaster (this was close on the heels of my very ugly confrontation with OM, which we also discussed and which brought a lot of hurt and pain to the surface for both of us.) I suggested, as I have increasingly frequently, that maybe we need some time on our own. Shortly thereafter, she went off to beach by herself for the weekend (not with OM, I checked-- he was here in town) to "clear her head", though she kept in fairly constant text contact with me.

So, now, she's had the "time" she wanted to think. To me, not a lot has changed MR-wise, though it seems likely that the A with the OM is, for the time being, out of the picture, and she does appear willing, and perhaps a little eager, to keep me apprised of her whereabouts-- she's doing it on her own motion, not because I am asking. Still, to me it's not enough and I think we need to change the dynamic. She's been finding ways to spend time with me, on three occasions now since then, and I have not pushed her away and they have been "nice", but, we are not getting anywhere. I probably should not have let myself get sucked into MR convos last week (and was told as much on these boards)but... it happened, so now I have to deal with it. I told her what I needed to continue to "work on us" which, to my mind, is what she is trying to do now, albeit "her way" by avoiding tough MR talks or counseling but instead trying to have nice social interactions with me. So, while I know I am supposed to avoid initiating MR discussion, I kinda feel like I need to say something now to close the loop on this-- She betrayed me previously, has not given me sufficient grounds to trust her since (though she has done a few things), and now seems to just want things to continue in the status quo without making any efforts to work through our problems. I had posted some ideas about how to approach this at the end of my previous thread, and had gotten feedback ranging from "Just tell her you need some time to yourself" to "Go ahead and tell her you enjoy hanging out with her but that you're not getting what you told her you were going to need and that you don't want to keep pretending to be a couple if you're not".

Do you have any specific thoughts on this? At the very least, I am going to tell her that I am just not interested in hanging out with her socially under the current circumstances.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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Or, do I say nothing and just pull waayyyy back? Remain cordial when I see her in morning and evening, tell her when I'm going out but not where (this dicey though since she is sharing all such info with me), absolutely don't invite her out (I did actually go out on my own Saturday and definitely annoyed but also intrigued her, she texted me constantly) and tell her I need my " me time" if she shows up, respond only sparingly to calls texts, and only have R talk if she starts and then only listen? At some point even then I feel like I'd have to say "you're not giving me what I need", and I know damned well I'd have to answer her questions about what's wrong and why we're not hanging out.

Also, kind of interesting(?) tidbit: my own best friend (separated H of my W's wayward bff, who,supposedly "shares everything" with him) tells me that according to his W, MY W tried to kiss her (and no friendly little peck) a few weeks back when they were out. Now, my wife, as I now know, is a very sexual person, but has never shown any proclivities "that way". For my part, just trying to deal with the concept that I may have driven my W to lesbianism. :-/


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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When I used to train sales I told my team that the worst thing in the world was a 'maybe'.

New guys would think that if a 'yes' is good, and a 'no' is bad, then a 'maybe' is somewhere in the middle. It's not a yes, but hey, at least it's not a no, right?

Wrong. A no lets you move on to new customers. A no frees up your time and attention to find new opportunities. Maybes bog up the pipeline and like weeds choking out flowers will kill your garden.

If there's one thing I hate it's this conversation which gets played out a million times a day: "Hello, is Mr. Smith there? Hi, it's Jim with ABC company. How are you today? Great. Say, I'm just following up on the conversation we had the other day. You said you wanted some time to consider things. Have you had a chance to think it over? I see. OK, not a problem. I'll call you back in a week. Let me know if you want to move forward. Bye!" Repeat and repeat until they stop taking calls and returning messages. I can't stand it. It is absolutely ineffective. There are reasons to follow up with customers, but this isn't the right approach (in my opinion).

OK, so moving to your marriage. Looks like you got a big 'maybe'. I'm not dismissing some of the things that she has done such as the increased communication around whereabouts and the NC with OM. But this is a long ways away from saying that she is committed to the marriage, acknowledging that she made a horrible mistake and is sorry for the pain she caused, and is prepared to follow your lead and get professional help to better understand how to begin to discuss moving forward. To me it sounds more like something went wrong with OM and now she wants to avoid consequences while she hangs out with her Devil-BFF, sipping wine and living vicariously through her, waiting to see if you'll start to look as attractive as the adventurous greener grass, or if something else (or someone else) comes along that looks greener.

I'm not suggesting you walk, move out, file, lob out ultimatums, or anything like that. But I would ABSOLUTELY detach and understand that you are in the same spot as when she was with OM minus the OM.

I also wouldn't SAY anything to her. I think relationship talks are worse than pointless. They not only don't accomplish anything positive and only add pressure to the relationship and make the grass appear browner, but they also show an unwillingness to enforce consequences. At some point when people show that they don't care what you have to say you can't keep talking to them. You have to ACT. I'm not saying you need to do something to control her or manipulate her. But look at it this way- whatever you want to say to her, think about how you'd respond if she said "Sorry LBH, I don't give a rats behind". If this would provoke an action response, well, in my mind just go ahead and do that action and skip the whole R talk which is just as pointless as my above follow up call example. She isn't listening to your words, she is watching your feet (if she's watching at all).

So- bottom line- drop the rope, detach, learn how to read the scoreboard and recognize that it's BFF 1 and marriage 0 right now, and decide what you want to do from here.

For me personally it is a big deal that there was someone else. If it had just been her questioning the marriage to you and talking with her BFF I could accept limbo. Once she's broken her vows then I think it is a totally different situation. When someone does something that wrong if there response is anything short of 'how can I make this right' I couldn't accept that. You could stay in limbo for a number of years while she throws you little scraps of hope to make it look like "I am making progress, just give me time". Pass. I'm out. When you've made the minimal progress I'd need to see then we can meet at a counselors office to begin to talk about whether we both feel like re-examining our marriage depending on where we are at that time. But you'll have to call me at the new phone number because I'm outta here. (And I wouldn't say that either. I'd just pack up and go.)

Yeah, people say not to move out, talk to a lawyer, etc. You do what you want. But I did move out and I am so darn glad I did. As nightmarish as BD and D was I'm grateful that it died a relatively quick and clean death. The grieving and fallout was horrible but it was more like dying in an explosion as opposed to being buried alive.

Good luck my friend and hang in.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
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I of course understand the importance of (once piecing) building positive memories and taking time to have fun, etc., but... all that seems to me like it is a waste if it is done before all the hurtful stuff is worked out. How can you ever trust the "good stuff" or the "happy part of your life together" if there is still that mistrust and hurt and negativity floating around that never got resolved?


To you it may seem like a waste of time, but to me it makes a lot more sense to work on the friendship and have light hearted, enjoyable family activities to relieve some of the stress after an agreement to reconcile the M has been made and both spouses are willing to do the work...............rather than doing those things before any type of reconciliation efforts have been established. This is with the understanding that the couple will use some form of therapy (MC, retreats, programs, etc) while they are piecing. Therefore, the couple is addressing the issues in their M and learning how to resolve them. The hurt and mistrust you speak about are some of those special issues that usually requires professional guidance. The couple who sits down to have a R discussion with the expectation of resolving their previous and current issues without any outside help........stand a bigger risk of not making it, IMHO.

Jim, I see you and the W basically repeating the same behaviors. I think I have answered your question about trust several times, so I won't go into it again, except to say that is the importance of transparency and having therapy, etc. R talks don't really do enough to heal.

Here's the thing. Your W is still carrying your b@lls around in her purse. You tell her you will need more evidence of this or that........but she does things in "her own way". That should never be acceptable to a H who is coming to this board getting the tools you have. She has never given a clear yes or no about anything that said she was cooperating and was willing to do what you needed to heal. But you come post and use terms such as "to all appearances". You used similar wording the other time you tried to convince yourself she was in NC with OM.

She never gives you solid proof the first burner or the second one is truly destroyed. She uses childish antics or just out & out lies to your face, and you let it go......still trying to convince yourself she is "in all appearances" making some sort of effort....."in her own way". Again, Jim, You are the one with the frickin tools! Why is she calling the shots? I'll tell you why. It's b/c you allow her to do it in her own wayward style. Which is not acceptable. Why? B/c she is the one that's wayward, and you aren't, so you should tell her how it's going to be. She has done nothing that I can see shows any sincerity of even wanting to consider working on the MR. In fact, she wants anything ........but.
She looks sad, maybe sheds a few tears, gets moody, and upset that OM was maybe hurt, sends you several texts, and shows up at your favorite bar looking hot. Yep, she's still playing.

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I have not repeated the request), continued transparency (which she has done, actually, always letting me know where she is, et


No, she is not being transparent. She is telling you what she wants you to know. The real truth is on the phone to which you have no access.

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I wasn't going to accept or be satisfied with the status quo and her just "hanging out" with me to "see how that feels."


In the first place, she's temp checking you. In the second place....I think of the verse that says you strain at a gnat but swallow a camel. Look, you are the one who invited her to your watering hole, and now you don't like it? I would think you should be more upset at how she skirts around the things she doesn't want to do..........like making a commitment to do whatever is necessary to save her M. You can tell her you don't want her showing up at your truff, but it will just make you look like a jacka$$. She'll just get mad and use against you. If you are going to make her angry, why not go all the way and put your foot down about the big issues............instead of this petty stuff.

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So, now, she's had the "time" she wanted to think


Time is a game for WW's. They always need more time. And if the H has tells her she has till midnight to call with her decision, she'll keep him waiting until the next day after the deadline. By then, he's so happy to hear from her.......and she has him right where she wants him.......in the palm of her hand. Naturally, she tells him if she had to give an answer on how she feels right now, then she'd have to say no. But maybe if she had more time, her feelings would change. Nope! B/c it can't can be a decision based on the feelings of a WW! It has to be based on the right thing to do.

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Or, do I say nothing and just pull waayyyy back? Remain cordial when I see her in morning and evening, tell her when I'm going out but not where (this dicey though since she is sharing all such info with me), absolutely don't invite her out (I did actually go out on my own Saturday and definitely annoyed but also intrigued her, she texted me constantly) and tell her I need my " me time" if she shows up, respond only sparingly to calls texts, and only have R talk if she starts and then only listen? At some point even then I feel like I'd have to say "you're not giving me what I need", and I know damned well I'd have to answer her questions about what's wrong and why we're not hanging out.


See, this is why your situation has become so complicated, b/c you did not follow through the boundary, then you didn't follow through with the stipulations you required from her, .......and she still is not held accountable. That's the game she plays.......and, it appears that you play it, too. Actually, I don't think your suggestion above will serve you very well at this point. B/c you can't expect her to be transparent while you refuse to give her details about your activities. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander!

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tells me that according to his W, MY W tried to kiss her (and no friendly little peck) a few weeks back when they were out. Now, my wife, as I now know, is a very sexual person, but has never shown any proclivities "that way". For my part, just trying to deal with the concept that I may have driven my W to lesbianism


Well, I'm no authority along those lines, but I highly doubt you can "drive" your W to lesbianism. Don't get distracted by something BFF told her ex-h.....knowing he would probably tell you.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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To you it may seem like a waste of time, but to me it makes a lot more sense to work on the friendship and have light hearted, enjoyable family activities to relieve some of the stress after an agreement to reconcile the M has been made and both spouses are willing to do the work


I think you misunderstood me. This^^^ is the sentiment I was trying to convey, not that it would ALWAYS be a waste of time, but that it would be without a commitment to solve the underlying problems. Once a couple is working on the hard issues, I DO (as does the MC we have consulted) think it is extremely important to start building positive moments/memories together so it is not ALL painful drudgework. (FWIW, the MC, about whom I know you have doubts, is also one of the chorus of voices hollering at me that "your W is NOT ready" for counseling or other MR building).

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She has done nothing that I can see shows any sincerity of even wanting to consider working on the MR. In fact, she wants anything ........but.


Yes, you are right. In the days immediately following the last revelation, she appeared very remorseful and talked like someone who wanted to do whatever it took to "make this right" (though she did not use those words.) And I gave her parameters under which I would work to, as she said, "figure things out with us". She has not, of course, done any of those things other than some of the already described efforts at transparency and, assuming she is in fact not in contact with the OM, by staying away from OM. But she is clearly not "all in" and she is clearly "not ready" to commit to working on us. And there are a couple of other things she has said in the past day or two that make it clear that she is still enamored of the "single girl" lifestyle her friends are leading (or at least that she sees no problem with that lifestyle), though I honestly don't think she sees it as an act of rebellion or anything else "against" me... but clearly somewhat thoughtless and disrespectful, particularly under the circumstances of her infidelity. (When last out with her bff and another single friend, she had a brief but sexually frank discussion with a bartender at a bar who afterward gave her his number-- she told me all of this as if nothing I should be concerned about-- and seemed surprised: "I've never been passed a phone number like that before and never would have thought it would have happened there!")

And, yes, I should have just pulled the plug a few days ago, and I look weak for not doing it, but the pending departure of my son for college at the end of the week and the flare up of my younger son's Tourettes are both really making it difficult for me to toss another grenade into the mix. I am already distancing myself, yesterday and today, and she has noticed (as soon as I start doing this, her texting to me like triples or quadruples), so if she broaches the subject in the next day or two I will tell her where I'm at ("When you came to me after I found the phone and said you wanted to work on us, I gave you parameters under which I would try to do that, but you haven't done those. After the infidelity, I'm not willing to keep hanging out with you pretending we're a couple unless youre committed to rebuilding trust and trying to solve our issues, and if we're going to do that and I am going to trust you it has to be within the bounds I set last week. I'm not willing to keep pretending.") and if she doesn't broach it herself I will prolly wait until S18 is off at college on Saturday and tell her "look, I can't do this anymore."

I appreciate the tough love, and if you have any other thoughts on, tactically, how to save some face and extricate myself from this, I'd love to hear them. Zeus's warning about the perils and uselessness of "R talks" aside, I kinda feel like I need to say SOMETHING to her here... but Im open to alternative viewpoints.

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Well, I'm no authority along those lines, but I highly doubt you can "drive" your W to lesbianism. Don't get distracted by something BFF told her ex-h.....knowing he would probably tell you.


^^^ Oh, and FWIW, I meant this more as comic relief (and as another entry in my ever-growing "WTF moment of the day" files) than anything. Certainly not giving it any particular weight other than... WTF?

Last edited by Cadet; 08/15/17 03:49 AM. Reason: Combine posts

H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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As an aside, has the webmaster here ever considered adding an "edit post" feature to the boards?
Seems like it would save you moderators a lot of heartache..

The edit function was in effect for a while but it got abused and was used for TOS violations so it was disabled.
I doubt it is coming back but I am only a moderator.


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And this is an addendum to my previous response/post...

The more I think about this, and the more I "go through this", the more I think I just won't be able to "Wait" or "make it" through the whole ordeal. I hear you talk about taking two years to come around... I can't make it two more years. Six months has nearly killed me at times-- I'm surprised I've made it that far. Almost certainly wouldn't have without my faith. She's just... under my skin. Always has been. I just buried it for a long while. Even if the A is over... I can't keep half-a$$ing it with her. I need to know we're moving forward or else be done with it. I can't be around her if there is no "us"... and no hope or apparent prospects for "us"... certainly not for two years. Maybe even one more year. It's just not in me. I'm naturally a happy, joy-filled, loving person, and it's killing me to have to keep existing in this limbo, to have her so "near" but at the same time so far away.

And, yeah, I prolly blew it. Shoulda stuck with "shock and awe" when i found the last phone. But... even then, as you note, it could still have taken her a loooong time to fully come around. In two years, I'm pretty sure I'm not still going to be "around." Don't know that i can be and still be "me"... or at least the "good" happy me that people (including myself) would want to be around. Just add it to my list of eff-ups that includes the horrific neglect that allowed her to get to this spot in the first place.

I really, really wish there were some way to reach out to, like, well EVERYONE everywhere... married couples... and impart on them the importance of taking care of and nurturing your relationships. Not taking them for granted. Showing your mate how much they mean to you. Making the time and effort to keep romance and love and mystery alive. And while we're at it find some way to dampen the scourge of cell phones and social media that seem to be such a big drag on the development and maintenance and protection of true, interpersonal relationships. If things don't work out in my MR... heck, even if they do, I want to find a way to help others avoid what I and so many others here are going through.

Sorry for the downer post. It's a tough morning.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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