Going through divorce #4

[lcause]

New thread as requested by Cadet.

Link to old one

Going through divorce #3

So, the past few days have been good for me even though we have messaged quite a bit. Mostly about my D going to school etc, about kids. Shared even some funny jokes. What's surprising to me is that I'm not really feeling anything about it right now... somehow the conversation feels more friendship style than "one-way", hard to explain. Am I detaching? Am I losing my feelings?

I'm still having negative thoughts about job search and future every now and then but I can redirect my thoughts much better. The support in here, self-help books and video talks are a tremendous help. SSRIs and therapy are probably contributing quite a lot too. Exercise as well. I'm much more "who cares" towards failing/embarrassing myself than previously. My self-esteem has always been quite low, to the point where I don't want to call because I feel I don't remember what to say - now it feels much more natural.

I opened the talk at work and asked them if they had ideas about GALs where I could interact with people (I'm not originally from this city and I moved here around the time I met my XW). I'm optimistic I'll find proper GALs. My sitch is soon 3 months long, so I'm still at early stages. I won't be one of those who stay on the rock bottom forever.

“To those human beings who are of any concern to me I wish suffering, desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, indignities—I wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished: I have no pity for them, because I wish them the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not—that one endures.”

- Friedrich Nietzsche

[lcause]

Ok...

This is getting slightly annoying. I get pictures of my kids every day and XW texts me how D is not dressing up fast enough to get to school, how she is complaining about homework etc. Am I being too nice answering to these? Feels like I'm here to validate XWs frustration. Certainly don't need pictures of my kids each and every day.

Is this some sort of temp checking? I thought when kids are with her, it's really none of my business unless important. I certainly don't share stuff like this.

PS. Visiting a dentist now

[Holding]

That sounds like temp checking. You don't need to support her when she's having trouble with the kids. She's made her bed, and now she needs to lie in it. She needs to see that she won't have that support from you after D is final.

[TBSakaJ9]

Icause......my W does the same thing. She will send me pics of our girls for no reason, last night she texted me and told me she got a good deal on a pair of shoes that my D wanted. Some times I respond and some times I don't. Last night I responded with nice.

The advice that I was given is that if it is not actionable then don't respond. Only respond to those that are actionable and when you do keep it short and simple.

My W and I have been separated for 2 months now and when I used to get these I would freak out. I would ask myself what do they mean? Why is she thinking of me? Is it a hint? Etc., etc. etc.

Now they don't impact me, I try not to read anything them. Unless she wants to talk about our relationship I'm not going to sweat random messages.

[Treasur]

Yup, I'd ignore them unless there is a practical question that urgently needs a reply.

[lcause]

My mom has been playing with D all the time. That's good as they see so rarely. I've been mostly studying, exercising, sleeping the sleep debt away and meditating. I've been preaching about the self help stuff for my brother and parents

So massive panic attack at night and I'm still experiencing the effects. I've been questioning my future and forcing the thoughts to positive does work - but it feels like I'm just fooling myself. Has anyone else who has successfully turned their life around achieving the goals and dreams felt this way?

It's the issue of a fixed mindset. "I was born like this". H3ll with that crap!!! I know the single most important thing to happiness is knowing that we CAN change, we CAN learn and we WILL find the place if we put in the ACTION.

I need to start disassembling the issues to smaller and smaller parts. Climbing to the summit of Mt. Everest is easier if you see it as a series of small rocks instead of one fricking huge mountain.

XW has been with OM this weekend. I've not received anything now which is good. I'm feeling much more detached from XW and my main feelings are just about myself as seen above. I've found I really enjoy reading books and they detach me very well. And reality/informational, I still dislike fiction. I need to buy a kindle.

[lcause]

XW was annoyed today about something that I don't know the reason for... She was just nagging when I took D back to her.

I drop the rope. I feel emotionless about her stuff now, the nagging didn't feel bad - just made me realize how much I dislike women who nag and can't state their true feelings. I don't want her back anymore. This is it. I've had enough. No matter what happens in the future, I can't forgive her that she went directly with another man. That future isn't going to happen anyways but she chose what she chose. I'll choose differently. I wouldn't be able to trust her anymore.

I saw some vids of people doing calisthenics. Holy cow I want body control like those guys do! That's my routine from now on. Seriously. Also, I've been very happy today. For some reason I'm just smiling and laughing for everything. Right here, right now.

I'll be GALing this week, going uncomfort zone. That's right. Going to meet with my old professor (actually had the courage to contact him via email) to ask how he's doing and if he'd have some contacts for jobs. Also, I'm running seriously again. 3km/14min normal pace! That's considerably better than my 3km/20min pace I had @ BD

[lcause]

Great. My XW was bringing kids over and she saw my SSRIs. She questioned if I'm depressed to which I didn't want to lie and said that I've been diagnosed yes and I was even before BD - that it was probably obvious. To which she said yeah, pessimistic thoughts are an obvious clue to depression...

Somehow we ended up texting about R again and surprise I got clingy (way to go with rope dropping and detachment right?), she said she thinks we've drifted far apart that she doesn't know if she sees us as a couple in the future anymore. That she just doesn't know. She's happy for me that I've found help for depression though and said she notices I've been much more optimistic since BD.

So... no need to drop the rope and lose the hope when your stupid brain makes you do it automatically Why can't I just let it go? Yesterday I was feeling SO detached, today I'm far end on the other side of the scale?

[lcause]

So good progress and now I just dropped down ruining a) the minor potential chance of having a family reunited and b) my detachment. I was already feeling so good about my future, being able to direct my thoughts and now I'm just ruminating again. ARGH!!!

[Btrow]

Lc,

You haven't ruined anything. That little incident had no affect on your sitch and you also didn't ruin your detachmenet since you obviously weren't detached in the first place. If you were, none of this would have affected you at all.

Jump back on the horse and continue GAL'ing. You'll get there eventually.

And oh, stop the texting, ok

[lcause]

Thanks Btrow. I can count on you to pull me back up. I should read your sitch more and comment on there too. I saw you mentioning my name there, how you people gave me hard time about GALing

Yeah you bring a good point on detachment. But I'd like to consider my previous state as at least some sort of detachment because I didn't feel/obsess about her, nearly at all! Seems like my thoughts fell back to the hole today. I guess it's some sort of codependency/independency thing now since I was visiting relatives and I'm alone again at my apartment.

Now I just need AS here too telling his uplifting stories about a good future waiting for me on the next page and then I'm set to better mood again!

[AnotherStander]

Lc,

You haven't ruined anything. That little incident had no affect on your sitch and you also didn't ruin your detachmenet since you obviously weren't detached in the first place. If you were, none of this would have affected you at all.

Jump back on the horse and continue GAL'ing. You'll get there eventually.

And oh, stop the texting, ok

^^^EXACTLY^^^

LC, you are doing fine. I know it's been the longest 3 months of your life, but your sitch has barely started. Your W is still firmly in the "I'm doing the right thing" mindset. Months from now who knows, but this is the way she is going to be for a while.

And actually, I think it's a GOOD thing she was the SSRI's, you think it's a sign of weakness but it's the opposite, it shows you are taking things seriously and you are doing something about it.

You will drop the rope, but it's still many months away. Be patient with yourself.

Now I just need AS here too telling his uplifting stories about a good future waiting for me on the next page and then I'm set to better mood again!

I'll be honest with you, it's not that great. Oh sure I can do whatever I want now- ride my motorcycle at 2am, binge watch Game of Thrones without getting an earful, go work out whenever I want without feeling guilty, get texts (like today) from my super hot GF asking if there's anything more I would like her to try in the bedroom, but seriously.... oh wait what was my point? Who am I kidding life is FANTASTIC!!!!! There was an episode of Naked and Afraid where this couple was doing really well and the guy said "this isn't survival, this is thrive-al" hahaha! I love that! That's my life, thrive-al. I'm not just scraping by whimpering about what was, I am grabbing life by the shorthairs and swinging it over my head. You will too, just give it some time.

[lcause]

^^^EXACTLY^^^

LC, you are doing fine. I know it's been the longest 3 months of your life, but your sitch has barely started. Your W is still firmly in the "I'm doing the right thing" mindset. Months from now who knows, but this is the way she is going to be for a while.

And actually, I think it's a GOOD thing she was the SSRI's, you think it's a sign of weakness but it's the opposite, it shows you are taking things seriously and you are doing something about it.

You will drop the rope, but it's still many months away. Be patient with yourself.

You read me correctly. I do see that as a weakness, although I shouldn't. I've told about it to people and they've all been supportive and said it's a courageous thing to admit and seek for help.

Though, I told her stupid stuff in texts. I said her I disliked her mentioning stuff about the future because it felt like she was playing with my feelings and I don't tolerate that when she's seeing another guy. That it creates useless hope feeling and she seems to think I'm dumb by downplaying her intentions... that's what I meant with clingy and I seriously don't know why I had to write that garbage. It made me look so weak...

I'll be honest with you, it's not that great. Oh sure I can do whatever I want now- ride my motorcycle at 2am, binge watch Game of Thrones without getting an earful, go work out whenever I want without feeling guilty, get texts (like today) from my super hot GF asking if there's anything more I would like her to try in the bedroom, but seriously.... oh wait what was my point? Who am I kidding life is FANTASTIC!!!!! There was an episode of Naked and Afraid where this couple was doing really well and the guy said "this isn't survival, this is thrive-al" hahaha! I love that! That's my life, thrive-al. I'm not just scraping by whimpering about what was, I am grabbing life by the shorthairs and swinging it over my head. You will too, just give it some time.

Hahaha. That's funny and you have a natural talent of bringing people back up. You should be a motivational speaker for depressed people. Man I want to get to that point some day.

It's just really hard with being in a situation where you see your second child born less than 8 months ago. I read somewhere that pregnancy alters the hormonal balance and brains of women to "accept" more love/affection... so it is natural the stress created to the family easily pushes the parents further apart and if an A happens, the woman is very susceptible for it and to continue the new relationship

[lcause]

Feeling better again today. Reading seems to be the #1 GAL for me... even better than talking to (already familiar) people. Somehow my brain just stops thinking about other stuff while I read. I always thought I wouldn't like reading lol.

Why is GALing so hard? Is it the fear? Is it the preconceptions we have of things we think we don't like? I was talking about GALing with my mom and she said she had PPD when they got me and she actually did GALing/going to uncomfort zone to get over it.

For some reason my XW seems to be more open in texting... like joking about stuff. She is really concerned about the kids and still sends me messages daily about them, except when she's (supposedly) with OM. I think I have been too nice...

People who want to watch motivational stuff in YT, check Tom Bilyeu and the Impact Theory series. Crazy stories of success and personal growth.

[TBSakaJ9]

My W does the same crap....cold in person but more friendly via texting. Some times I respond to her and other times I don't. I think in person they do it because they are trying to display who is in control. Kinda funny if you ask me, I just try not to pay attention to her moods and act normal.

[lcause]

Actually my XW is not cold in person, she's even more open and talks more than I do. Offers me coffee and even food sometimes. I've agreed every time because I wanted to see my kids but I'm going to refuse from now on.

It's funny how I realize now that I've been too harsh on myself for my whole life. I see people with less skills having better jobs... Fear drives me so much but realizing it really helps in redirecting the thoughts. I want to be a motivational speaker at some day. I want to make a success story and be able to share it for people. If I can do it, then anyone anywhere can do it. I want to be inspirational for others. It's cool how I can look back my thread and remember the feelings I've had and how much better I'm feeling now/what kind of a thought process change I've succeeded to make. Time truly does help.

That brings me to the problem - the time frame. I realize I should take this concept for everything in my life - it's a marathon, not a sprint. I'm not going to succeed changing myself in a week, but by baby steps. Also, the goal of changing myself to rescue the M is good to take as an overall principle - work hard in life; you may not get what you originally wanted but you sure as hell do succeed and find your place. Also, as someone pointed out in this forum, success is the best revenge.

I feel that writing these helps motivate me and trust myself more. I hope someone is reading these and getting even a slight feeling of boost in at least some aspect of their life. These are true, genuine expressions I make and feelings I have, and forcing myself to think like this makes it easier to shift it to a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sorry if this isn't helping or just makes more clutter. I feel better and that's my goal

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=lcause]Great. My XW was bringing kids over and she saw my SSRIs. She questioned if I'm depressed to which I didn't want to lie and said that I've been diagnosed yes and I was even before BD - that it was probably obvious. To which she said yeah, pessimistic thoughts are an obvious clue to depression...


well, to be fair, you knew that pessimism was a problem for you. And now you are working on it. So to me, it's not a bad admission, b/c you both know change is not a magical event that lands on your head out of nowhere.


Somehow we ended up texting about R again and surprise I got clingy (way to go with rope dropping and detachment right?), she said she thinks we've drifted far apart that she doesn't know if she sees us as a couple in the future anymore. That she just doesn't know.

This means she has not written off the r. Let that sink in. Fight the pessimism or it will become a self fulfilling prophecy.



She's happy for me that I've found help for depression though and said she notices I've been much more optimistic since BD.

Keep at it. This is called progress!

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=lcause]Feeling better again today. Reading seems to be the #1 GAL for me... even better than talking to (already familiar) people. Somehow my brain just stops thinking about other stuff while I read. I always thought I wouldn't like reading lol.


reading can take your mind off things. Which is good. I thought you were looking to do a social activity, to meet people and give something else a chance.

Try not to assume things a bit out of your wheelhouse will rob you of something. Just expand your horizons.


Why is GALing so hard? Is it the fear?

Yes it is fear. And your tendency to be pessimistic and giving up.

Is it the preconceptions we have of things we think we don't like?
\

Yes it is.

So, is this the same reason you didn't make changes your wife asked you to make before?


I was talking about GALing with my mom and she said she had PPD when they got me and she actually did GALing/going to uncomfort zone to get over it.

Good for her.

For some reason my XW seems to be more open in texting... like joking about stuff. She is really concerned about the kids and still sends me messages daily about them, except when she's (supposedly) with OM. I think I have been too nice...



Wait...so you think her reaching out more, means you should withdraw? I don't get it.

[lcause]

She says she probably doesn't believe in it. She doesn't know. I find it odd she says this even though she's seeing OM. Maybe she really does wait and is somewhat open to it if I change or if we really do find each other. Though, she says we've drifted so much apart that it feels very distant. But my mindset is actually more positive even though this sounds more negative than last time

Yes, my courses start next month. I still need to find something more. But reading is just awesome.

I mean, she's with OM so if I'm just nice and support her with her problems she has with kids, isn't that cake eating? Shouldn't I back off more? I don't want to be in friend zone.

I think I couldn't change because of fear and too much comfort. I used to love being challenged but I think depression turned me around. I should have looked for help earlier but that's a kind of catch 22

[lcause]

I just visited to see my kids a bit. I just don't understand how friendly my XW is. It's like we'd be in R, just without the physical and deep emotional connection. We laugh together, she talks and shares stuff like in R, we play with kids together...

Is this good since she's seeing the OM? Am I being friendzoned and being too nice to her? Should I distance myself so she can see what she loses via D?

I am overall feeling better again. For some reason the beginning of this week was utterly bad for me. Now I can focus again. Ordered the co-dependent no more book.

[lcause]

Is it normal that I would rather like to see their R dying and then laugh at her/rub it in her face than actually hoping for the R to die to get back together?

I don't know if I really want to be with her anymore. I'm obviously angry and hurt but what would there even be in an R with her anymore? I don't want to DB anymore. Not GAL or self improvement obviously, but being a friendly neighbor, validating and that jazz. She made her choice. She didn't give me the gift of time.

I'm going to start the real being mysterious aka dating when I get the new job and continue my self growth. There is no better GAL than to have sex and boost self confidence by hooking up with different girls. It might be pathetic at first but it's a skill that has to be practised

[lcause]

On her face. Sometimes I wish this board would have an edit button.

[Btrow]

Is it normal that I would rather like to see their R dying and then laugh at her/rub it in her face than actually hoping for the R to die to get back together?

I don't think it is uncommon to want the A to end, but I'm not sure many want to rub it in WW's face, even if the LBS don't want to reconsile. I want my XW's A to end as much as the next guy, but it goes against my nature to stomp on people lying down, so I'll just do my happy dance when I'm alone

[lcause]

I spent the weekend away in another town and caught the flu. I guess different viruses going, lol. Summer flu is the worst one... I'm in fever with a runny nose so I've been lying on my bed pretty much the whole day. I can't even meditate and my thoughts are drifting because I can't do anything or go anywhere.

I guess I fear their R lasting. I don't see the OM as a good step-father, maybe it is some kind of a subconscious thing. But just for some reason I can't get it to my head what kind of a man would do this. Sorry ladies, but I don't think breast-feeding hormones going haywire tired married woman a mere months after giving birth is really attractive (obviously just temporary!) but I think that's my moral compass or subconscious, or rather primal instinct, speaking. This is why I keep wondering... Doesn't sound like a proper role model for my kids. Oh well, what do I know? Maybe he is an alpha male and a good guy. I know this is useless speculation but it just keeps harassing me, mostly because this man is going to be with my D&S (when he's older) eventually.

Maybe I'm still hanging on the hope of their R dying and my XW eventually finding myself as the better choice. I still love her... But I'm ok without her now. I've seen that by taking action and directing my thoughts I can be just fine. I think if I didn't have a baby this would be much easier for me.

[lcause]

Argh, someone please pull me out of this. I'm feeling so angry that I'm borderline texting her some super angry messages. I feel so disrespected and bad today. Why?!?!

I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. But seriously, it hurts. But I really do see the situation in the sense that I deserve someone better. I deserve a fulfilling life, not someone like this. How could someone who was so nice turn out to be like this?

ffs. I'll go make a salmon salad for myself or something else to get over this feeling.

[LH19]

Icause,

It's part of the stages of grief. Anger is one of them. Feel it but don't act on it.

Stay strong my friend! You are very young and have a full life ahead of you.

[lcause]

Thanks LH19. You're correct. The best revenge is success in life, not the short-living good feeling you get from talking others down. Only insecure people do that. Thanks again. I think this highish fever is messing my head right now, I haven't been this angry yet. I don't think I will be anymore either.

I guess I'm just trying to validate my thoughts about the OM - that he isn't this alpha male, perfect match for my XW. Although I have to realize my morals aren't universal.

I'm so frustrated to be ill. Exercising is futile. My power levels are so down... but after DB process I've been addicted to exercising. I. Need. To.

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=lcause]Thanks LH19. You're correct. The best revenge is success in life, not the short-living good feeling you get from talking others down. Only insecure people do that.


Yes true.
People who don't know how to feel good about themselves on their own, tend to want others yanked down to their level. Like crabs in a pot grabbing onto the one climbing out.

Learn to affirm yourself more, and a lot of your life will change and improve.

When you question what the OM sees in your wife, and when you described your w as unattractive b/c she's breast feeding and hormonal, I found myself thinking she probably felt that critical view of her coming from you.

It's hard enough to be pregnant, give birth, recover and nurse. When the father of those children sees the mother of his children as "less than", it cuts deep. Some men think that pregnancy is when a woman is most beautiful, and it's certainly when we are most vulnerable.

I don't condone affairs, but I don't think they are all alike. Given how you see your wife, maybe the OM was just appreciative?


Hope your cold goes away. Take care of yourself.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

I am not defending the affair. I'm just reminding you of the options you have, and changes you have said you want to make, but which you resist mightily.

Change is not easy but your life as it is now, doesn't sound like a picnic either.

You have choice here. You can change your life & steer your ship, or be a passenger the rest of the way...
It is up to you.

((( ))

[lcause]

[quote=lcause]Thanks LH19. You're correct. The best revenge is success in life, not the short-living good feeling you get from talking others down. Only insecure people do that.


Yes true.
People who don't know how to feel good about themselves on their own, tend to want others yanked down to their level. Like crabs in a pot grabbing onto the one climbing out.

Learn to affirm yourself more, and a lot of your life will change and improve.

When you question what the OM sees in your wife, and when you described your w as unattractive b/c she's breast feeding and hormonal, I found myself thinking she probably felt that critical view of her coming from you.

It's hard enough to be pregnant, give birth, recover and nurse. When the father of those children sees the mother of his children as "less than", it cuts deep. Some men think that pregnancy is when a woman is most beautiful, and it's certainly when we are most vulnerable.

I don't condone affairs, but I don't think they are all alike. Given how you see your wife, maybe the OM was just appreciative?


Hope your cold goes away. Take care of yourself.

I didn't mean it this way. I appreciated it, of course. She was pregnant and carried MY son. I'm not attracted to other pregnant women because my compass tells me not to. They have men and I wouldn't do ANYTHING to break a bond between a child and his/her father! Or my instinct. I talked as an outsider, forcing my views how I would see other women. It's ADORABLE, but not particularly ATTRACTIVE. Of course I was attracted to my own wife!

Relationships have parts where people drift more apart and back closer. A lot of stuff just happened at the same time.

What do you mean all affairs aren't alike?

Maybe. Maybe he was but it still grinds my gears. But if you see it like this, maybe I have more self-reflect to do. Maybe I've been focusing on wrong things and she found the true happiness. Maybe he is a good guy and I can relax.

[lcause]

PS

I am not defending the affair. I'm just reminding you of the options you have, and changes you have said you want to make, but which you resist mightily.

Change is not easy but your life as it is now, doesn't sound like a picnic either.

You have choice here. You can change your life & steer your ship, or be a passenger the rest of the way...
It is up to you.

((( ))

I am implementing some of the changes already and I've noticed big impact. I don't ruminate as often as I used to. Baby steps, they say.

I am talking daily with my friend who is the most active person I know. He's giving me solid tips how I could network with people in IT sector as he knows a lot of people in there.

Thanks 25 for wishing me well and ((( ))) back

[25yearsmlc]

LCause.

You wrote:


I didn't mean it this way. I appreciated it, of course. -Or my instinct. I talked as an outsider, forcing my views how I would see other women. It's ADORABLE, but not particularly ATTRACTIVE. Of course I was attracted to my own wife!

Well I guess I still hear you saying pregnant women are not attractive to you, but you were attracted to your wife. Not sure we need to belabor the point but my gut says your wife knew this. With the changes that occur in childbirth, we are at our most vulnerable.
Saying you are speaking "as an outsider" means you believe pregnant women are not attractive to other men.

I'm just saying that my 5 brothers and h would disagree.

Relationships have parts where people drift more apart and back closer. A lot of stuff just happened at the same time.

What do you mean all affairs aren't alike?

I mean one night stands or drunken encounters are not the same as a weekend fling

and they are not the same as affairs in which 1 or both feel "in love"

and not the same as long term affairs requiring long term deceit

and not the same as living a double life long term

and not the same as affairs that come out in the open, which are really not seen as affairs but as new "relationships". None of them are right, but they are not conducted in or stemming from the same causes, and for sure they have different paths.

Make sense?

Maybe. Maybe he was but it still grinds my gears. But if you see it like this, maybe I have more self-reflect to do.

I'm not defending the OM. You don't have to "like" him!! I get it. I don't "like" the OW my h sees, I just try not to spend much time pondering her. She's not the reason I filed for divorce anyhow (I didn't know h was seeing anyone when I filed).

SOMEDAY You MAY have to accept him as a stepdad and IF that happens, it's important to remember that your preference is a guy who isn't a jerk to your kids. He's never going to be their dad; you are always their dad.

You will not be replaced. But yeah, IF the time comes and they interact a lot, as hard as it seems, it really is better for the kids if he's decent to them.



Maybe I've been focusing on wrong things and she found the true happiness. Maybe he is a good guy and I can relax.

Well you describe yourself as a pessimist and that this was an issue in your m. Probably safe to say you spend too much time with negatives...but you are changing that so that's great!

You need NOT think about your w's "true happiness." It's not something we "find" it's something we create ourselves.

Why not shift the focus you have from HER "true happiness" and create yours? That would be a great 180.

As for GAL with other IT people, I see the value of that for your job hunt. For sure.

Still, I don't think you really understand GAL itself. It's not about networking for your job, it's about stretching yourself, widening your horizons and broadening your interests. Trying things you don't know for sure that you will like. Self discovery is part of real GAL>

That helps distract you and creates fulfillment and that helps you Detach.

Detaching is fundamental to your personal progress AND to your "true happiness."

[lcause]

Yes, I see GALing differently than you do.

For me GALing is to pursue things I know I want to achieve but feel like I can't. I'm not going to start doing things I know I don't like because I'd end up eventually feeling worse (when is this going to end... I just want to get back to doing things I prefer, trust me this has happened). I don't think the point is to force yourself to do things you haven't done but to do the things you like on a higher intensity, on an intensity you feel is not achievable or is impossible. On a level you have not (yet) achieved. For me, this is finding a career, advancing in it, finding people who share the same views (aka are good friends), coming up with projects I like to build and accomplish in making them etc. There is no point in going to a pottery or cooking class for me because I don't particularly enjoy that. I know it. This is also what makes us attractive - having a clear passion and pursuing it while having fun doing it.

Ultimately, the best GAL is to follow your passion and accomplish it. Do what you felt like you always wanted but a family or your spouse prevented you from getting it.

The fundamental question is not how we define GAL, it is HOW do we GET there.

[doodler]

I had several sessions with a DB coach and he said GAL should be something that really excites you and gets your blood flowing. It should be the sort of thing you want to tell other people about. Your excitement and enjoyment of whatever your GAL activities happen to be should be infectious; the kind of excitement that can rub-off on other people.

You know when athletes, writers and artists talk about being "in the zone"? That's a wonderful place to be; time is transcended and you're fully immersed in the activity at hand. You're not worrying about bills or your marriage and you're totally in the present. Most of us have been there at one time or another and that's what you should be shooting for with your GAL activities.

I sort-of fell into my main GAL activity; I started doing home improvements and I enjoyed the artistic side of it so much that I kept on going. Not only was I "in the zone," I was also increase the value of my house. Every time someone passed by my house they would tell me how much they liked the changes; that was a huge motivator. It was lots of work and lots of fun and it kept me from ruminating about the things I couldn't control.

[25yearsmlc]

lcause

Do whatever - I support you actually doing whatever GAL is. You have mostly spoken of a number of things that you are planning to do or thinking about doing...

Plus I think you said your w complained about you spending too much time on the computer. (Hence my suggestion to broaden your horizons and maybe not do something that is a solo activity.)

That's where I'm coming from. Most of my GAL consisted of things I had wanted to do

but lacked the time. However I did a few totally new things I had not thought of, b/c a friend asked me to or b/c I spontaneously chose to. And some things I did to spend time with my kids, like coaching or volunteering one afternoon a week at their schools.
I have No regrets.

Anyhow, good luck and keep at it.

[lcause]

Doodler - thanks. That is how I define GAL. It has to be something you really enjoy doing. I'm all up for trying different things BUT sometimes the preconception is strong enough to not do it.

25 - don't get me wrong please!!! Your help is invaluable for me. Know this. Know that you have helped a stranger who lives thousands of miles away from you. I really appreciate it.

I WANT to find activities that aren't just solo only. Trust me on this. But I would like these to be something I could possibly do for the rest of my life and really enjoy going in them. I am trying really hard on coming up with ideas. Don't think for a second I enjoy my life currently.

The biggest issue for me has always been the fact that I'm a wrong type of a "perfectionist". It's hard for me to start anything because I can't do it perfectly immediately. This is the thing I struggle with in everything, in job seeking to even the things I'd like to do! I can't complete the projects because I spend too much time planning and redoing after I come up with a better way. I need to get over this to find the purpose for my life.

For example I know I'm pretty smart and in IT I could easily accomplish a lot... But I just don't start because I feel that my solution might not work or that it isn't the most optimal! I struggle in getting Elon Musk mentality - never give up. It's like I'm trying to get into Olympics without being first in smaller series.

I KNOW my XW is not coming back. I have already accepted this. It's not pessimism anymore. I wasn't happy in the M either. I was a bad husband. There is nothing for her to get back to.

[lcause]

When I met my wife, I felt the most happy in my life until D was born. I completed 1/3rd of uni in one year with almost highest grades in courses. I was so full of happiness. I wasn't ready to be a dad at the age of 24. I should have seeked for help. Obviously D is everything to me now... I wouldn't trade her for anything. I am so saddened 6 years of my life has gone to waste because my mind was limiting me. In the end I lost what was supposed to be the most important for me. This was the karma, the ultimate self fulfilling prophecy.

I could have achieved so much more if I understood the things earlier. I know I need to live in the present and forget the past. It just haunts me what I caused. Although, ultimately I am happy if my XW found the happiness now she was after. I could have been a better choice if I saw it earlier. It is too late now but I still have some time to rebuild my life and be a part of someone else's happiness. Possibly. I still have my beautiful kids and I can walk with them in their journey.

[lcause]

One thing I struggle with: people are guiding Mark to not be something his wife can count on, yet I'm supposed to be nice and theoretically just what people are guiding Mark NOT to be?

Is my sitch somehow different? Shouldn't I also be showing something she is losing? Or am I just interpreting his sitch or mindset incorrectly?

I can notice that when I start answering one word answers, my wife starts to write much more

Also: I am pretty sure my issue I described in earlier post is due to messed up reward system. I feel like I don't get a reward from accomplishing stuff. This is most likely due to dopamine receptors but my doctor doesn't want to give Rx for dopamine related A/Ds.

[SwHubby]

Hi LC,

It feels good to see that you are trying to grow and that it seems you are feeling better. It is also shown in your posts.

I think you might be overthinking alot and going from past, to future, stop in the present for a stort while, then moving on again back and forth. I think it is important to reflect but maybe not everything at once. Especially with all these feelings running around inside you. You might also draw conclusions from a sitch where you do not have all the information and views. I think it is great you started to meditate, it will probably help you with that. I am trying to meditate but find it hard to keep the routine steady. Soon I will get there. ;-)

I do not remember if you are in IC. If so, just continue. It is hard to talk to family and friends. First, they are not trained to help you find your own thoughts but are more or less giving you their own. Also, I feel at times that I am tiring them.

With all this talk about your wife's happiness. Yes, it might be the case that she is really happy now and that OM is going to be a great stepfather. It might also be the case that it is a short romance that will end as soon as reality kicks in for both of them. This could take a while.
But - you do not KNOW anything about what W feels and thinks, no matter how much you think you know her after your years together. And you do not know anything about OM either. Anyway, you have to wait and see it played out.

About 25, I think she is trying to make you broaden your horizon a little bit. Yes, there might be a lot of stuff that you do not like. But it could be because you feel uncomfortable doing it, and that you might like it when you get into it. You could try out a few things which includes other ppl. Even if you do not like it, you might meet someone that you could try out something else with. Just keep looking after stuff that seem funny.
I am thinking about cooking class as an example. I never became great at cooking before I met W, and she loved to cook. So I became her "sous chef" in the kitchen, choping stuff. But I know nothing about flavours, spices and I am not comfortable cooking dishes that are not really easy and that I have done a few times already. But I would like to became better. Even if it is not he most funnits thing in the world, I think that I would find it rewarding.

Good luck LC!

[lcause]

Thanks Sw. It's nice if I have sounded like I would feel better, I certainly do think so myself. Post written by LH19 (probably loosely citing Accuray; in another thread) made me realize that most of these feelings are really the fact that I'm not in control - it most likely isn't love. That helps me feel better. But at the same time, her having a new R this quickly is like putting a knife into my heart.

I realize that 25 is just giving examples. It is a huge mental block for me though. You can think it of as like saying "don't eat as much" for someone who is overweight or "don't feel bad" for someone who is depressed. I WOULD LOVE to make new friends. I just feel that I don't have the tools or find the places. It feels so awkward to try to talk to strangers in the sense of getting them as friends unless they share the same values or interests. E.g. in uni or in work.

Yeah. I know I have to wait it out to see how it plays out. But frankly put, if it is a short term romance, I hope by then I'm not interested anymore. To be completely honest, I don't think I could piece this like I've stated already. It just currently feels like I would want a revenge - but that's due to the anger and it'll pass.

[SwHubby]

Yes, you really do sound better. You are much more calm overall in your posts.

I saw that post as well from Accuray (?). I can relate to the not in control part as well. I think the sitch, not being in control as well as having my identity shattered contribute alot to my feelings. I do however still have feelings for W but I have a hard time seperate it from other feelings about the sitch.

My largest problem through this sitch is not OM, it is problem to convince W to letting D sleep at my place and make up a plan for us to go for every other week for D in our places. I really dread going to court and "start a fight" but soon I must if I am to avoid being the every other weekend dad. Getting stone-walled so far but still have hope for a happy ending in this part of the sitch.

It is crap that you live so far away, like in a country beginning with F/D (?). Otherwise we could meet up and chat about our sitches in person. I am also an introvert person and enjoy being on my own. I think it is hard as well to make friends. But usually it gets easier if your goal is not to make friends, but to have a good time or accomplish something.

About the sitch, maybe try to not have any expectations? It seems that recon is usually a long way down the road if any (see comments from AS as an example). I know that W is not going to change her mind anytime in the near future. We are going to get D (late Nov) and I will probably see W start dating soon. She might never come around, or maybe it will happen in a year or three? But we cannot plan for it, if it happens then it happens and we will deal with it then.

Best of luck!

[lcause]

Ah that [censored]. Sorry to hear you have to go to court. I am actually every second weekend dad+some week days. I have to wake up so early that I can't take D to school. We'll see in the future but I prefer kids having the choice and I don't like 50/50 because I've heard a lot of kids feel they don't live anywhere but are just ping ponging around.

Yes I'm from F. Curious why no N? Hehe. Yeah would have been nice to meet in person.

I am not having any expectations on my wives part anymore. For me, I don't really think I want back. I am starting to feel I'm better off alone and rebuilding my life with someone else eventually. Coincidently, after I realized what LH19 wrote, I have been more happy and more confident when interacting with my wife. I haven't thought about my words anymore. My D laughs constantly while video calling and I hear my W laughing too at times. I was much more closed previously whenever I interacted with her.

I am doing exercises to get my dopamine/reward system functioning again. I dropped sugar and other related stuff completely from my diet, cut coffee to one cup a day/replaced it with green tea, bought a white board and I write down my daily goals, striking over them when I finish and doing a celebration each time no matter how small the task has been. I hope this combined with exercise and meditation eventually rewires my brain.

[AnotherStander]

I am so saddened 6 years of my life has gone to waste because my mind was limiting me. In the end I lost what was supposed to be the most important for me. This was the karma, the ultimate self fulfilling prophecy.

I could have achieved so much more if I understood the things earlier. I know I need to live in the present and forget the past. It just haunts me what I caused. Although, ultimately I am happy if my XW found the happiness now she was after. I could have been a better choice if I saw it earlier. It is too late now but I still have some time to rebuild my life and be a part of someone else's happiness. Possibly.

Hey LC, there is this recurring theme in your posts where you beat yourself up for not being a good enough H, I mean it's good that you see that now but at some point you've got to move on. I am not saying to FORGET, I am saying LEARN and be better. And I think you're well on your way, but this dwelling on your past mistakes is possibly holding you back from really being the ultimate you. WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES. Maybe yours were worse than others here, maybe others were worse than yours, but the best any of us can do is learn from our mistakes and improve ourselves. And -that- process never ends. I thought I was a pretty good DBer but even now 5 years post BD I find myself falling into old patterns and I'm constantly having to check myself, and do a "post mortem" on my behavior after I mess up. We'll never be perfect, none of us. We learn and we keep moving forward. So don't dwell too much on how "bad" you were, try to take a more clinical approach towards it and analyze your behavior and determine how to fix it.

By the way you've also convinced yourself that you have no chance with your W. I'm not convinced of that though. You've grown tremendously in your time here. Your W spent a lot of years with you, you have a history. She fell in love with you and that person she fell in love with is still in there, maybe now more than in recent years. Her struggle right now is reconciling that with who she's been seeing the last few years. It will take her a while to become convinced you really have changed, and when she does, what happens then is not written yet.

[lcause]

Hey LC, there is this recurring theme in your posts where you beat yourself up for not being a good enough H, I mean it's good that you see that now but at some point you've got to move on. I am not saying to FORGET, I am saying LEARN and be better. And I think you're well on your way, but this dwelling on your past mistakes is possibly holding you back from really being the ultimate you. WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES. Maybe yours were worse than others here, maybe others were worse than yours, but the best any of us can do is learn from our mistakes and improve ourselves. And -that- process never ends. I thought I was a pretty good DBer but even now 5 years post BD I find myself falling into old patterns and I'm constantly having to check myself, and do a "post mortem" on my behavior after I mess up. We'll never be perfect, none of us. We learn and we keep moving forward. So don't dwell too much on how "bad" you were, try to take a more clinical approach towards it and analyze your behavior and determine how to fix it.

By the way you've also convinced yourself that you have no chance with your W. I'm not convinced of that though. You've grown tremendously in your time here. Your W spent a lot of years with you, you have a history. She fell in love with you and that person she fell in love with is still in there, maybe now more than in recent years. Her struggle right now is reconciling that with who she's been seeing the last few years. It will take her a while to become convinced you really have changed, and when she does, what happens then is not written yet.

Thanks AS. The difference between this post and the previous ones was that this was written in indifference. Previous ones were written with teary eyes

I know that "past me" does not matter anymore, except for being the baseline I can compare my growth to. It is "today's me" who is building the foundation for "future me", "past me" does not matter anymore.

I know we will never R. I just know it inside me. It's something I'm ok with now. I feel loss of control and a knife in my heart when she could just jump into another R directly after me. I don't think I'm in love anymore and I feel totally unwilling to even try to build our R again even if a chance would present itself. Don't get me wrong I'm NOT detached and I feel the loss or fear of the future but I am convinced I'm going to be more happy this way.

[lcause]

Also, I really don't think the chance for recon is as good as you claim it to be. Statistically it's probably close to 5-10% of couples and I bet most of those are situations where the decision was done by impulse rather than M being unhappy for a longer time (possibly always?)

Also, despite her not having shown OM to my D yet, they are definitely in a relationship. I still don't know who it is though but I don't think my case is similar as others, as I don't think my XW would have taken a "project" (LOL). I don't hold grudges for OM though even if I have sounded like that. I don't think he has a good moral compass but this definitely is not his fault.

It'll just take some time for me to get past the codependency, feelings of lonely holidays etc. but there will be a day I enjoy being single

[SwHubby]

Easy, I asked you early in our sitches if you were from N based on the legal system you described. :-)

Good luck and keep on fighting!

[lcause]

Ah, lol. I forgot. Well, you forgot too. We were talking about culture, not the legal system. In our culture, I don't think separation is that common. People are less religious and marriage vows are less important here.

This white board helps omg. I have to do -list written on big letters and I can dismantle big problems to smaller parts. I have always had a problem where I focus on the end goal without realizing the importance of the work needed. I am a smart person so when I get my neurotransmitters in balance, I WILL achieve more.

Kids over this weekend, yay. Trying to come up with ideas to do with D. Gonna GAL with her and she wanted to help me to organize stuff here, haha.

XW has changed her WhatsApp profile picture to a very flirtatious one. Lol... She never put her hair like that when she was with me. I guess OM likes it that way

[LH19]

Please erase her from all social media.

[lcause]

I don't have her on Facebook. I use WhatsApp to all conversations with everyone I know. Even with her.

The picture did not make me feel any different, I just found it funny. I really feel more and more detached day by day. She just brought my D here and I didn't even feel that attracted to her now. Your comment was a literal eye opener. It's like this fog lifted off. The detachment curve feels like it would be exponential. I guess I might fall back to feeling bad if something happens but currently I feel rather good. I'm more worried about my own future, what I really want to do for living etc. than to be with someone or be with her. I see benefits in being single.

[LH19]

Dude you are going to be fine. You have your entire life ahead of you. Just don't ever forget the lessons you have learned from this experience.

At some point she is going to want you back and your not going to want to take her back. Guaranteed!

[AnotherStander]

I know we will never R. I just know it inside me. It's something I'm ok with now. I feel loss of control and a knife in my heart when she could just jump into another R directly after me. I don't think I'm in love anymore and I feel totally unwilling to even try to build our R again even if a chance would present itself. Don't get me wrong I'm NOT detached and I feel the loss or fear of the future but I am convinced I'm going to be more happy this way.

Well, that is a perfectly valid attitude to have if it's the one you WANT to have. Some of us, we have to tell ourselves it's all over to allow OURSELVES to detach and drop the rope.

Also, I really don't think the chance for recon is as good as you claim it to be. Statistically it's probably close to 5-10% of couples and I bet most of those are situations where the decision was done by impulse rather than M being unhappy for a longer time (possibly always?)

I've related this story before in other threads, but back when I was going through S and D I spent a lot of time asking my male friends and relatives about their own divorces. These were all guys that had a WAS, not the other way around. None of them were DB'ers, but some of them just naturally took a DB approach while others did not. Now granted this is a small sampling, I think we're talking about 15 people. Of those, only 2 of them reconciled. So that would be, 13%? So you might look at this and say "AHA AS, see I told you, even in your own experience barely more than 10% reconciled!!" But guess what, I asked all those LBS's how many of their WAS's approached them about recon. Are you ready to hear this? 100%. Every last one of them. THIS IS WHY WE SAY IT TAKES PATIENCE!!!! Because they want to recon on THEIR schedule, not the LBS's. What happened in almost every case is by the time the WAS wanted to recon, so much time had passed that the LBS had moved on, was done, and typically in another relationship, and no longer was interested in the WAS. In short, the LBS became the WAS. The LBS was the reason the couple didn't reconcile.

So my warning to you is if you decide to take the attitude that there's no chance and you're done, then you probably will be. You will probably never recon. But not because of her, but because of YOU. It's exactly what happened to me, so I'm not saying it's a bad thing.

[lcause]

Dude you are going to be fine. You have your entire life ahead of you. Just don't ever forget the lessons you have learned from this experience.

That I don't question, I am in control and I will find my place...

At some point she is going to want you back and your not going to want to take her back. Guaranteed!

...this however, I can bet my both testicles she won't want me back. But I am fine with that. Not losing my testicles, my XW not wanting me back I mean.

Went shopping with D. Bought Bluetooth earbuds and now eating at IKEA. I have a feeling she enjoys being more with me but this could be because she sees me less. I am the funny one who plays with her, XW mostly just watched her play without really taking part in it while talking.

XBIL getting married today. 8 or so months after his divorce went through. Huh.

[lcause]

AS I do agree with you that some of us really need to trust it's forever done to be able to move on. Hope can either help you or be your worst enemy. I don't particularly appreciate my XW saying the things she said. Not even realizing that those things are technically quite low blows.

Interested, why are you so convinced the WAS can't find her new partner a better choice? I think this overall still happens way more often and your sample size is just too small Funny coincidence though. Also we are so much younger and cultural differences play a role. The support of family and friends as well. I mean, look at my XBIL. XW is like he found the true happiness... FFS they've been together less than a year!!!

[doodler]

...and your sample size is just too small

Them is fightin' words! Never tell a guy his sample size is too small. What were you thinking?

[lcause]

Haha doodler

Took D back to XWs place. D asked me to stay a couple of times, I told I can't. Those teary eyes

I stopped drinking coffee and I'm going through some withdrawal symptoms. I usually drink like 5-6 cups a day. Lol. Feeling so tired and a bit depressed again.

It's funny how quickly things turn around. 8 months ago I would have never thought I'd be single in the Summer. 3 months ago I thought I would never get over this. Now I look at my XW and she feels so distant to me, like a relative I haven't seen for a while. She definitely does not feel like the person who I spent the previous 9 years with. This is also the reason why I think she never approaches me anymore. I don't know how hormones play during the time she's sleep deprived and breast-feeding, but currently she feels so distant and does not talk about anything else than kids unless I'm at her place. But then again she constantly asks me "is D sleeping already?" "how did D sleep?" "has D been out?" etc. Well, otherwise this makes detachment easier.

Well. I feel I've advanced quite a bit as a person, especially as a dad and for the next relationship. Thanks everyone. I'll start fading these updates off because there is no advancement in this sitch. Don't think self-growth blogs are that interesting to people anyways.

[lcause]

Ok, dropping down again to feel so bad. Why did I google statistics about those who regret divorce? I end up reading boards about women commenting how they do not regret it a single bit. I can only assume my XW feels the same way. I never wanted to be one of the husbands whose wife would think that way. I hope some day I will feel this really was the best for all of us but it really hurts me to know that I will on some level always be scarred. She feels so happy now... actively pursuing OM all the time. She does not show a sign of regret.

Sorry, this all just comes from because daughter was here again and her eyes when I told her we'll see next time next Monday... watery. This pain is intolerable. Feeling so lonely and bad for my kids. My S is so nice baby, always full of joy - he NEVER cries. He's always smiling for me and so excited to see me! I miss him so much each day. I just want to hold him. I'm going to do everything in my power to guarantee they have a fulfilling, good life and they both treat their future partners like they are supposed to.

Why do I end up dropping down again. I just don't understand. Maybe I just have to be satisfied with the fixed mindset that I will always be like this. To be honest, without this board I would have come to this decision months ago, I would have probably felt much worse and who knows what I would have done?

This is a recurring theme, yes. I know. I'm just not strong enough. I don't want to fight anymore. I want to feel bad. I want to feel angry. I want to feel regret of what I did. It's been 3½ months since the BD before which I never thought she was this unhappy. It's been 8 months since I was happy watching my son getting his first breath. 8 MONTHS.

I am good person, I am super funny and energetic when you get to know me. My purpose is to cheer up people every time. I never want bad for anyone, and I feel extremely bad if I have hurt someone. Why I am so miserable in my life? I feel like no one appreciates my efforts. Maybe I'm coming out as fake. There are times when people have told me I'm too happy/positive/energetic.

Ah. Ok. Getting back on my horse and riding towards my future. I feel so bad for my kids and I really hope they can forgive me.

[Btrow]

Dont beat yourself up LC, youre only 3,5 months in. I can "assure" you it will take much longer before you're through the roller coaster ride. One step at a time you'll get there. And stop paying attention to statistics.

Remember what AS posted from his own little personal survey, that all of his 15 friends, family etc that had walk away wifes, eventually saw their wives attempt to come back to the LBS.... Not saying yours will, but no one knows.

And those women who post on the internet that they'll never regret? Never mind them. I can't imagine people who acknowledges they made a mistake, would ever admit it anyway. So you only hear from those with no regrets, right?

For now, focus on yourself and your kids. You both need it.

[Benito]

The part I struggle with your posts is that some days you post that you really don’t feel closeness to your ex anymore (she is a distant family member).

You said a few days ago "I can bet my both testicles she won't want me back. But I am fine with that.  Not losing my testicles, my XW not wanting me back I mean".

At the same time you are searching message boards for women that have been threw similar situations as your ex , I would suspect to try and get a better understanding of the situation.

You asked "why do I keep dropping down again?", - its because you have not let go of the relationship and you are not focusing on yourself. If you had, you wouldn't be on the internet looking for glimmers of hope. If you really want this 'dropping down' to stop, to you need to accept that she has gone. Once you do that things will improve as you will be forced to turn you attention inward.

If there was any glimmer of hope she was going to consider recon with you it wouldn’t be with the person you are today (not that there is anything wrong with you), but its apparent from your posts that you haven't let go and there is a negative undertone to most of your comments.

It is a hard process no doubt made harder with children being involved but if you were fully at peace with the fact it is was done then your life would be a lot easier.

[lcause]

Well, I guess I can accept that it's still so early that I'm on the emotional roller coaster.

Benni, I have accepted that it is over. I am not trying to recon. There is nothing for us to recon for as she's done things I could never forgive. She is with another man. It was more of the sort "I wish I had a time machine". I know I can't control that. The regret part is because she seems so happy in the situation, stating how D is taking it fine, how kids will survive divorces without any issues and how we all are going to be more happy this way. That's why I wish some day she would at least feel a TINY bit of regret she didn't want to work through our issues before taking a new man in her life.

You are right that kids are making this immensely more harder. If I didn't have kids, I would have just moved out from the city and never talked to her again. Now I need to be in touch nearly daily. Proper detachment is hard.

[SwHubby]

Hi LC, I feel for you and welcome back again.

Well, I think there is a huge difference between rationally realize that it is over (at least in the forseeable future, 1-2 years) and emotionally realize it and go through the grieving process. I have problems with it as well, I can feel fine and know that I will get through it. Then W starts to put pressure on me regarding D or financial stuff or get angry and telling me that I have been and still is treating her badly. Even though I have been giving her space, never started a heated argument (since 2 weeks after BD snyway), never yelled at her and I try to diffuse the sitches when W is pursuing conflict. Then I just freak out internally and start to show signs of cracking and letting my deep sorrow to be seen by W. I feel that I am so easily played and could be manipulated to do anything if W decided to do it.

I also think there is a difference between wanting to be over something and really, deep down, being so. Especially when it has been a part of your entire adult life so far.

I guess that we should keep on hanging here and just taking it easy. We might realize that it is over, but it aint over until it is over. We decide it. I want to be able to letting go, have the mindset that W should beg for us to get together if we would come to that in the future and have to work for it. But I am still far from it. She still has the power. I am trying to grow on my own and as a father but it will take time. In time, I will get there.


Just go back to DB 101 and GAL. Try to take responsibility for ourselves and our relations (I mean other than W like kids, family and friends). That is all we can do to try getting forward.

Keep on going forward!

[Btrow]

The regret part is because she seems so happy in the situation, stating how D is taking it fine, how kids will survive divorces without any issues and how we all are going to be more happy this way. That's why I wish some day she would at least feel a TINY bit of regret she didn't want to work through our issues before taking a new man in her life.

You have no idea how she feels. Right now she HAS to convince herself that she made the right choice. Otherwise it would be too hard for herself. Plus she'll never show you if she isnt happy.

I salute you for deciding for yourself that you'll never want to reconsile. That is IMO a huge step for you to take towards closure.

[SwHubby]

I agree with Btrow, she HAVE to give the impression (for other but mostly for helself) and tell herself that she is making the right move no matter how she feels about it during the nights when she is trying to sleep. I think the best for us would be to stop thinking about what she feels based on appearence.

But it is hard... My W does not appear to be happy at kid-drops. More stiff and sometimes passive aggressive.

And as Btrow, it is great if you have decided that you would never reconcile. I would like to do it as well, but know that if W snaps her fingers, I would come running again.

Just continue fighting!

[lcause]

Mark my words, if this board is still up in five years, I'm back here updating my thread how I moved on and I'm in a new relationship with an amazing girl who loves my kids and whose kids I love. My XW is married to this new guy, and we are amicable. I've grown a lot, I enjoy my job, I'm also a model with a good muscular body I still meditate daily which I taught to my new GF. It's a daily habit of ours. The sex is the best I've had and I feel much more connected due to the self-growth via DB and other material, like 5LLs. Communication is the key to successful love

Jokes aside, it's nice to predict the future sometimes. Connor McGregor does it as well and he just doesn't see himself failing. Albeit it doesn't always work, haha. I think seeing a positive vision of how things could go and predicting them in your head is a successful tactic in a lot of areas in life (e.g job interview). Too many people concentrate on the negatives. Me included.

Hi LC, I feel for you and welcome back again.

Well, I think there is a huge difference between rationally realize that it is over (at least in the forseeable future, 1-2 years) and emotionally realize it and go through the grieving process. I have problems with it as well, I can feel fine and know that I will get through it. Then W starts to put pressure on me regarding D or financial stuff or get angry and telling me that I have been and still is treating her badly. Even though I have been giving her space, never started a heated argument (since 2 weeks after BD snyway), never yelled at her and I try to diffuse the sitches when W is pursuing conflict. Then I just freak out internally and start to show signs of cracking and letting my deep sorrow to be seen by W. I feel that I am so easily played and could be manipulated to do anything if W decided to do it.

I am so sorry for you. She definitely seems to be in some kind of a fog. I am so glad my XW doesn't see me as an enemy - to the point where she says she likes me as a person! Just doesn't have the feelings one should have towards their spouse. Your situation sounds so much worse... I feel for you You are taking it very well though.

I also think there is a difference between wanting to be over something and really, deep down, being so. Especially when it has been a part of your entire adult life so far.

I am over it in the sense that I don't want her back anymore. But I guess this could stem from being angry too. Who knows. Maybe I'm just deeper down in the fog.

However, I am not over the guilt and regret. I am not over the fact that I now belong in the 50% statistic. I am not over the shame and the feel of failure. I am not over the fact that I caused this on my part for my kids. This marriage wasn't for nothing, however, as I have two amazing children.

I guess that we should keep on hanging here and just taking it easy. We might realize that it is over, but it aint over until it is over. We decide it. I want to be able to letting go, have the mindset that W should beg for us to get together if we would come to that in the future and have to work for it. But I am still far from it. She still has the power. I am trying to grow on my own and as a father but it will take time. In time, I will get there.

It's still different to miss your XW and to miss being in control, fearing the future and feeling bad for your kids. It is definitely over for us and I feel so happy that other people are so much more hopeful in their sitches. I guess I need to realize the time factor as well. This stems from my poor mindset of always thinking "I want it now" vs. "I need to work on it and it'll come in time".

Who knows what the future brings but my seat belt is still securely fastened in this emotional roller coaster. I feel better now than few hours ago, like nothing would have happened. Leaving D with her teary eyes triggers this. Thanks guys.

[joejoe1]

Reading your thread, I can't tell if you want to be married to your wife or not. If you do want to be married to her than you have to commit to saving your marriage, if you don't than you need to start planning your way out. If you don't know that's alright as well.

One thing I do know, is you have to become happy. I know it's hard but you have to become a person only a fool would leave. You can't control her or make her do something she don't wants to do, but you can create a environment where she start to doubt her choices. The more sincere, happier and authentic you become in your ways the better you will be able to operate around her. Stop worrying about what she is doing, and focus on becoming the best you possible.

I don't know if you believe in GOD, but prayer and church has helped me a lot. Having faith and patients will become your best friends. I'm no expert, but I know people only wants to be around happy and positive people. Make yourself happy and positive and she will want to be around you, and will take time, but there is always hope and if you are committed to saving your marriage then keep fighting. Create a plan and have goals.

Joe

M:33 W:32
T:7 M:6
S13, S9, S6, S1
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17

[TBSakaJ9]

Leaving D with her teary eyes triggers this. Thanks guys.

That really stinks and I am sorry! My D cried last night all the way home from soccer practice for her mom and then again this morning she told me that she missed her. This is my 8 yr old. I know it will get better just know that your not alone and we all are struggling with this.

[joejoe1]

Happy Tuesday, I forgot to add to my original post.

M:33 W:32
T:7 M:6
S13, S9, S6, S1
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Divorce talk, hasn't happened yet

[lcause]

You have no idea how she feels. Right now she HAS to convince herself that she made the right choice. Otherwise it would be too hard for herself. Plus she'll never show you if she isnt happy.

It reflects through her. She doesn't seem that happy when we interact but she's pushing so hard to see OM that she must be, right? Even as far as that I think D is suffering a bit. My connection to S is also ruined because he is with another man this early.

Reading your thread, I can't tell if you want to be married to your wife or not. If you do want to be married to her than you have to commit to saving your marriage, if you don't than you need to start planning your way out. If you don't know that's alright as well.

One thing I do know, is you have to become happy. I know it's hard but you have to become a person only a fool would leave. You can't control her or make her do something she don't wants to do, but you can create a environment where she start to doubt her choices. The more sincere, happier and authentic you become in your ways the better you will be able to operate around her. Stop worrying about what she is doing, and focus on becoming the best you possible.

I don't know if you believe in GOD, but prayer and church has helped me a lot. Having faith and patients will become your best friends. I'm no expert, but I know people only wants to be around happy and positive people. Make yourself happy and positive and she will want to be around you, and will take time, but there is always hope and if you are committed to saving your marriage then keep fighting. Create a plan and have goals.

Joe

Thanks Joe. I don't want to save it anymore because I feel what she did is just too much for me and that ultimately I know she won't want me back anyways. I think we all know whether or not we have hope if we reflect hard back on our M - and on her part, I don't - I don't think she even loved me. Then I realized it would require so much work from her to gain my trust back that it's just easier to accept it's forever done.

I am overall quite positive but I just fall down every now and then. As Btrow said, it's the emotional roller coaster.

I do not believe in god but I know what you are saying. Positiveness and happiness naturally attracts people. By the way, you don't have to write the signature manually, you can go to "My stuff" and "Edit profile". It's easier that way

Leaving D with her teary eyes triggers this. Thanks guys.

That really stinks and I am sorry! My D cried last night all the way home from soccer practice for her mom and then again this morning she told me that she missed her. This is my 8 yr old. I know it will get better just know that your not alone and we all are struggling with this.

Thanks J9. As sad as it is, it still helps that I'm not alone in this. We will all survive this and come out as stronger people.

[AnotherStander]

Interested, why are you so convinced the WAS can't find her new partner a better choice? I think this overall still happens way more often and your sample size is just too small

Definitely a very small sampling, my point was simply that the statistics don't tell you the whole story. In the case of my examples, if I just read you the raw statistic that only 15% of this group reconciled, you would assume that the other 85% were poor, distraught LBS's whose wives never looked back. But in fact 100% of their wives looked back, they just didn't want them back.

As for your first question, the problem with affairs is they are based on an immoral premise to begin with. One or both of the affair partners is married, they committed themselves for life to another person. So the very fact that they are engaging in an affair speaks volumes not just of their lack of integrity, but also the lack of integrity of the person they are having an affair with. Would you have a fling with a married woman? I know I wouldn't. So it's a house built on sand, it's not going to last. Sure one or two sneak through and make it, but by and large affairs eventually go bust.

Now I look at my XW and she feels so distant to me, like a relative I haven't seen for a while. She definitely does not feel like the person who I spent the previous 9 years with.

Well, she may not be the same person. She probably never will be again. The W I knew is a completely different person than the person that is my XW. The best way I can relate it is if you have teen or adult kids, they were once young and adorable and just made your heart melt when you looked at them. They are those kids still, and yet, they're not. Of course you still love them to pieces, but they are not the same as those little kids you used to cuddle in bed with trading butterfly kisses. I think in my XW's case the whole reason she became a WAS wasn't because of me or anything I did, she went through some kind of mid-life change. Her whole personality changed, her values changed, her wants and needs changed. Before that I was the very top of her list of priorities, but the new her? I wasn't even on her radar. When I look at her and talk to her now, it feels very much like talking to a neighbor you see now and then. This is the person I shared experiences, hopes, dreams, every intimate act imaginable with for half my life! And I barely recognize her now. It is strange and bizarre and I'm not sure I'll ever get used to it!

I'll start fading these updates off because there is no advancement in this sitch.

This place isn't about updates. It's about coming here to share things you can't share anywhere else. It is a part of your recovery.

She feels so happy now... actively pursuing OM all the time. She does not show a sign of regret.

Of course she doesn't show any regret, because that would be admitting she's wrong and WAS's are nothing if not headstrong. None of them want to show a chink in the armor, ever. But what she FEELS is probably something completely different.

Why do I end up dropping down again. I just don't understand.

Because you are in grief recovery, and it's not a linear process. You'll have good days and bad days. Over time the good days become more frequent and the bad days fewer. Give yourself time, you'll get there! In the meantime allow yourself to grieve, it's NORMAL. There's nothing wrong with feeling bad.

[EastTN]

This is the person I shared experiences, hopes, dreams, every intimate act imaginable with for half my life! And I barely recognize her now. It is strange and bizarre and I'm not sure I'll ever get used to it!

I've read that divorce is as bad as having your spouse pass away, except that they're still walking around and you don't get to grieve the loss properly. I read an old thread the other day and someone talked about their XW as "someone who murdered my wife and destroyed my family" and I think that about sums it up.

[lcause]

I find it somehow annoying how my XW always starts her messages now with "sorry that I am bothering you again". No one else does this... It's like I'm completely foreign for her or she feels like I'm not interested. I would be annoyed regardless of who'd do that.

I've been watching this course in Udemy called "the neuroscience of reframing". It has been really interesting. Now I just need to figure out how I always remember everything on the fly. For example what 25 said about the word BUT. Not butt. But. I think these strategies could potentially be very effective. Acting "as if" is sort of reframing too.

I went to take kids out even though it wasn't my turn today. XW asked nicely because she has a high fever now. I'm not even interested anymore if I'm "being too nice". Whatever. I just want to be with my kids.

I've been trying to be much more extroverted now. My D is constantly asking "who was that? Did you know him/her?". Then she's surprised when I say no. I feel that this really is a skill you need to practise rather than a quality you are born with.

[25yearsmlc]

I find it somehow annoying how my XW always starts her messages now with "sorry that I am bothering you again". No one else does this... It's like I'm completely foreign for her or she feels like I'm not interested. I would be annoyed regardless of who'd do that.

IMO, she's sort of conceding that she may be overstepping your boundaries and N/C. As a co-parent that can happen legitimately. I think her intentions are reasonable with this.

I've been watching this course in Udemy called "the neuroscience of reframing". It has been really interesting. Now I just need to figure out how I always remember everything on the fly. For example what 25 said about the word BUT. Not butt. But. I think these strategies could potentially be very effective. Acting "as if" is sort of reframing too.


Reframing is key. There is such a thing as "neuro plasticity" too. We are working new muscles in our brains, that can change our way of thinking. It's Cognitive Behavior Therapy that morphs into a new "muscle" that reacts better.

^^That's a layman's phraseology but still applies. I've had to put a STOP sign image in my head a few times lately (it's a weird backslide for me to have obsessive thoughts at night, but lately I have struggled with it).

So I put the Stop Sign image in my head to just STOP going there. Then I get out one of the "new mantras" that help me replace the negative with a neutral bandage and then move to a positive, empowering belief. YES it takes practice.


I went to take kids out even though it wasn't my turn today. XW asked nicely because she has a high fever now. I'm not even interested anymore if I'm "being too nice". Whatever. I just want to be with my kids.


Not to minimize your experience but this^^^ one is crucial and I'm glad you get it. Of course you want the max time with your kids. Good on you for putting them first.



I've been trying to be much more extroverted now. My D is constantly asking "who was that? Did you know him/her?". Then she's surprised when I say no. I feel that this really is a skill you need to practise rather than a quality you are born with.

I agree. My mother was an extreme extrovert and I'm sure that rubbed off on me at an early age. My Meyers Briggs's test results confirmed it.

Keep at this, it does improve.

[lcause]

IMO, she's sort of conceding that she may be overstepping your boundaries and N/C. As a co-parent that can happen legitimately. I think her intentions are reasonable with this.

She has set those boundaries herself. I never said anything about N/C and if kids are concerned, there's no reason for that. I guess I just have to live with it.

I've had to put a STOP sign image in my head a few times lately (it's a weird backslide for me to have obsessive thoughts at night, but lately I have struggled with it).

So I put the Stop Sign image in my head to just STOP going there. Then I get out one of the "new mantras" that help me replace the negative with a neutral bandage and then move to a positive, empowering belief. YES it takes practice.

I agree with all of this. I'm sorry you are having obsessive thoughts. I feel that meditation really helps with this. Also, reframing by "detaching from yourself" and experiencing the thoughts or memories in 3rd person. Remembering the good parts and bit by bit reframing the negatives out.

I really suggest everyone to buy that course. Udemy has a ton of good material and most of the time the courses are on sale for $10 or so. The course has several reframing techniques and she explains really well how and what causes those things, via giving examples and citing research/psych books. I'm going to order the books too after I've finished all the current ones.

Not to minimize your experience but this^^^ one is crucial and I'm glad you get it. Of course you want the max time with your kids. Good on you for putting them first.

Yes, I don't give a crap anymore since I realized I don't want her back. I want to live my own life and be the best father I can be. My D needs me now more than ever.

Keep at this, it does improve.

Thanks ((( ))) I believe this as well

[lcause]

For crying out loud. I'm getting second thoughts of not wanting her back. I made Robinson Crusoe style practise reframing and even though I see positives on this too, I still find the time, sex, closeness, children and her really something I could fight for.

I have to remind myself not to think this way. The stop sign could work. I feel that ultimately, seeing the M via your spouse's eyes, should give you a rather good view of how hopeful you can be. We drifted so much apart in the previous 6 months, that I don't know how that closeness or her feelings could ever come back. I slept mostly on the sofa to let them sleep better as I my alarm clock woke them up at 5am. I was peasimistic and dragged her down. I was too absent and not affectionate enough. Also, I can't say anything about the future. I realized that. There is no point to. Live in this moment, broaden the timelines and seek things that give the ultimate pleasure and happiness. Concentrate completely on my own life and kids. If someday she approaches me and is interested in starting from scratch, and she's changed too, I can't really say how I would feel then. Most likely this does not happen as we are so young and she's already with someone else. Also, I'm not going to wait and if I meet an interesting woman now, I won't stop myself. I guess I'm trying to say that I'm not sure but I probably subconsciously find it easier to think this way in order to prevent myself from picturing things that won't happen. I feel that trusting to false hope would keep me walking on the same already made path without pushing myself to create new ones. Staying attached to hope ultimately keeps me doing the same mistakes and not letting myself reach the limitless potential everyone of us has.

I've read some of the sitches and I feel that they are close to where I was when I joined here. Now I see that ultimately everything, no matter how bad, has positives too. I've read that people who have really hit the rock bottom and got up from there appreciate the life in a completely different way. They are most of the time the happiest people too. It comes down to the question if the person can use the situation as their advantage or if they choose to give up. Situations like this, losing a close one, losing a job etc. while extremely sad and unfortunate can still yield a huge personal growth and act as a catalyst.

If you read this far, remember that the only thing between you and what you want is your mind. Remember that you can't control others but you can create your own happiness. Your spouse might or might not come back - but rather than seeing the end goal, push and force yourself to suffer and ultimately reach the goals you've always wanted to reach. Learn to love the process rather than imagining yourself reaching the goal. When you understand that we are not from a mold but we are LEARNERS, you can see the world differently and approach things in a more relaxed way (e.g. critique).

Finally. I'm trying to say that I'm going to concentrate fully on myself, I am not going to monitor my XWs behavior or shift my behavior depending on hers. I think this will keep me attached much longer. I'm going to act like a human is supposed to. I appreciate the M and the result (two wonderful kids and good memories) thus I will act like she'd be a distant relative. I'm going to let the pieces of the puzzle to fall into their places by their own. I will use the methods described in here and DB/DR as an ultimate guideline in life and I will monitor my own behavior towards others much more often, reflecting back and learning along the way. I will continue reading and enjoying self-improvement material.

[AnotherStander]

For crying out loud. I'm getting second thoughts of not wanting her back.

Of course, that's completely normal. You can't drop the rope this quickly, no one here can. Some people try to convince themselves they have, but anyone that comes here does so because they want to save their M and that desire doesn't go away in a few months.

I still find the time, sex, closeness, children and her really something I could fight for.

I have to remind myself not to think this way.

Why not? Missing her and missing what you had is part of grief and recovery. I completely agree that if you start spinning you need to try and divert your thoughts but that's not the same thing as thoughts of hope, love and nostalgia.

We drifted so much apart in the previous 6 months, that I don't know how that closeness or her feelings could ever come back.

They absolutely can. Surely you know someone that has done just that, I have several friends that have. A good friend that I had lunch with last week had a WAS, she angrily broke up, coerced him into immediately selling the business and ranch and splitting the proceeds and moved in with OM. May have been MLC based on what he told me. They barely spoke for a year, then she started reaching out to him. For another year they dated, now they live together and have their rings on again. And they are exceedingly happy!

Also, I'm not going to wait and if I meet an interesting woman now, I won't stop myself.

Barely 3 months post BD and you're already going there? You're not ready.

I guess I'm trying to say that I'm not sure but I probably subconsciously find it easier to think this way in order to prevent myself from picturing things that won't happen.

NEVER discount the power of positive thinking. Who do you think has a better chance of reconciling:

- Person A gets up every morning crying about his failed marriage and thinking about how his W is done and never coming back. He mopes through the day trying to put on a happy face but knowing deep inside it's all over, and maybe his life is over too. He will never be happy again, but he needs to survive for the kids.

- Person B wakes up every morning feeling confident that with enough time, his WAS will be coming back! He knows it takes patience, so rather than wait around he's going to busy himself with being freakin' awesome again today! He's packing his day with activities to keep his mind busy and keep himself sharp.

Person A will very likely never reconcile, because he's already given up on his M and even life itself. What WAS would want to reconcile with that sad sack anyway?

Person B will likely have a shot from his WAS, but even if he never gets that shot at some point his positive attitude drives him past his need to reconcile to be happy.

We all start out as Person A but DB'ing is about becoming Person B. And that was me. I decided my M WOULD reconcile. I told myself that every day. Hope was what got me through. I made myself super busy in the meantime. The byproduct of all of that hope and GAL'ing is eventually I was no longer driven by hope for recon, somewhere along the line my motivation became just to enjoy life no matter what it brings. That was when I truly dropped the rope.

I've read that people who have really hit the rock bottom and got up from there appreciate the life in a completely different way. They are most of the time the happiest people too.

Yes, I would say that's me. I used to tell people that after BD it was like a fell into a well and hit rock bottom, then a sinkhole opened up under me and I fell into a deeper, darker place that I never knew existed. Coming out of that hole was a long, difficult process. But yes, I am now exceedingly happy, I loved being a married family man and I miss it but this new life is awesome in completely different ways!

[lcause]

AS, thanks for commenting.

I don't know a single couple who would have recon. I know a lot of people who have remarried or married the next person even if they had a child with the previous partner. It seems extremely rare. My age probably contributes as I feel people over 40-50 are more likely to recon. The culture in my country is much more towards "when it is over it is over". This is why there are no separations. People divorce directly.

I didn't mean I was going to be person A. I just give up on it and stop thinking about whether I want recon or not. I'm not going to mope or be sad. If it happens, it happens and we'll see where I am then. Meanwhile I won't stop myself from moving on, finding a new woman, moving away to different city to pursue my dream job... what I was trying to say is that I'm letting things happen on their own weight and solely focus on achieving what I want to achieve whether she's with me or not.

Yes, 3 months in but if a perfect woman would approach me, I wouldn't stop it. I would take very long in dating but I would casually date regardless. I couldn't care less what my XW thought about it. However, this won't happen before I've found a better job.

I am different than you. If I keep hoping it, if I keep actively monitoring and using DB, I am not ever being able to detach. I'm a person who gets REALLY obsessed in stuff. My DB is to learn overall to be a better person whether I interact with my XW or a stranger.

What I'm trying to say is that I can see a positive future and my future is not at all dependant on whether I'm with her or not. My life isn't worse or better, it's different. I've learned a lot so I have much more to offer the next time.

[lcause]

I'm getting really annoyed by XW and OM. D is crying she needed to go again to her grandparents to stay overnight. When we were together, D could never go when she asked or when I proposed a date night for us (they already have too much stress). Now suddenly it's ok to drop D there every weekend she's supposed to be with XW. Apparently they are less stressed now even though I know for a fact they are not.

I'M SO DONE with this. I'm officially done trying to save this. DONE to the point of marching there and yelling to her face how sh1tty mother she is. I'm going to make my kids so happy that they will always say that dad is so much better or that they want to be with me. I'm going to be more happy definitely this way because it seems my XW has totally lost it. She does not deserve me.

[lcause]

D told me mom never plays with her and is always angry. She literally is always on her phone. D is really bored when she's with her.

Imagine, XW had the NERVE to tell me to always put kids first. What the actual f@/%?

[25yearsmlc]

I'm getting really annoyed by XW and OM. D is crying she needed to go again to her grandparents to stay overnight. When we were together, D could never go when she asked or when I proposed a date night for us (they already have too much stress). Now suddenly it's ok to drop D there every weekend she's supposed to be with XW. Apparently they are less stressed now even though I know for a fact they are not.

Suggest you take the kids when your w is not going to be able to be around. Do NOT point fingers at this stage. Your goal is to get the most time with the kids, right? It'll be an indirect way to show, via action that you are more involved and that she is not.

No need to highlight it. DO the increased parenting and let the gap be revealed.


I'M SO DONE with this. I'm officially done trying to save this. DONE to the point of marching there and yelling to her face how sh1tty mother she is.


needless to say (right?) this^^ is tempting but not helpful.

I'm going to make my kids so happy that they will always say that dad is so much better or that they want to be with me.




I'm going to be more happy definitely this way because it seems my XW has totally lost it. She does not deserve me.

well okay

[lcause]

Doing assisted hand stands till exhaustion is a pretty good way to relax and vent the anger. Just a side note

I should be reframing my anger instead. Venting or suppressing are worse methods.

Of course I'm not going to do that 25. But I'm literally done. This was it. Any second thoughts vanished at the same second my D video called and said she's again there against her will.

I'm reframing this that my XW is in a fog/experiencing a sauce of hormones or neurotransmitters and that she'll eventually wake up.

[Maika]

Isn't reframing your anger, the way you've described it, going down a tunnel of denial and speculation? I feel that this is not any better than suppression. I am genuinely asking.

Isn't venting and processing it a much more healthier approach?

[lcause]

Isn't reframing your anger, the way you've described it, going down a tunnel of denial and speculation? I feel that this is not any better than suppression. I am genuinely asking.

Isn't venting and processing it a much more healthier approach?

It doesn't matter whether it's true or false (albeit I do believe it matters in this case - breast-feeding, sleep deprivation, stress and low emotional feelings definitely contribute in those matters). Reframing it this way helps us distract ourselves easier. Say your friend is REALLY angry at you, yelling and spouting. If you reframe it to a thought that he/she is just having a bad day that's not relevant at all to you or your behavior, the anger passes and you learn to deal with it easier.

Venting is literally the worst way possible. You want to deal with anger by expressing it with aggression? Venting does not get rid of anger, it INTENSIFIES it until you're exhausted. You learn to deal anger with aggression which is not good. Suppression alone just does not work but with reframing and distraction, it does.

Neurons that fire together wire together. You learn and adapt the behavior. Use these distractions instead.

[25yearsmlc]

Venting wisely leads us to the release of anger, not leading to a downward spiral.

That is the risk in venting, but if used correctly, it can be a release valve instead, which reduces the chance of spiraling down or being aggressive. And can give us some peace.

No one suggests you become aggressive, btw. Good grief.

So you are exercising more? That's great. Any GAL yet? Any new people in your life yet?

And just fyi, I'm certainly not saying to ignore d7's comments of course. But don't take her 7 y/o viewpoint as absolute accurate fact.

And get those kids as often as you can. (For their sake and yours.)

There are men in my DivorceCare group who would do anything to have more time with their kids.

Btw, Divorce Care groups are great sources of support in real life. And you will meet new people who "get" what you are going through, so you won't worry if you're having a bad day. And my group is hilarious. I really am glad I've met them, though I wish it has been under different circumstances.

Check them out.

[Treasur]

I often think of it as hot anger, cold anger and 'gah'...the first is more like rage and you need to find a safe way to let it out. Cold anger can fuel you when you're scared, it's that kind of 'nope, that's just not ok' feeling and can be quite useful. Venting (here, or to a friend, or in a journal) seems to do the job for that kind of frustrated childlike 'gah' feeling when you just want to shout 'it's not fair'.

Either way, and I find anger tricky as many of us do, I guess DBing is about separating what we do from how we feel, because we learn that feelings pass and move around.

[lcause]

The typical ways of venting mentioned in here are "punch a pillow, yell at a pillow, punch a punching bag" and similar. Those are all aggressive by nature and are really unhelpful for you. Venting by writing? It's not aggressive but it's still ruminating. Just reframe it and don't experience it at all. Neuroplasticity is the keyword and it'll come with time if you keep practicing. Time+consistency = shifted behavior!

No new people. I spend most of the time in work, exercising, with kids or actually learning new technologies and completing the projects I've planned to do and never got started prior to BD. I find dismantling the problems and setting goals a highly effective way. It is surprising how good it feels to strikethrough a goal on a white board! I had a massive preconception of it but I'm actually enjoying this process now, lol. It's like I'm pursuing to get things done to be able to strikethrough some self-written text

[lcause]

It's funny how drastically my view has changed during the past three months. First when I got the book I agreed to everything with teary eyes. I felt like this marriage should definitely be saved. Now, I don't think I agree with a lot of it. I think not all marriages should be saved and I also believe divorce could be the best thing that ever happened to me. No one knows. I'm not going to let it define me and I can choose how I think about it.

Of course a lot of the information is only applicable when your M is still on a solid ground but has a few cracks. Unfortunately a lot of us find the book way too late. But it is still really valuable for my next relationship and this all sparked my interest in other R material too.

I find some of the advise really harmful too. I am certainly not going to monitor my XWs behavior any more than I now monitor any of my other relationships either. Doing this would keep me attached and it's really counter-intuitive for healing. Of course I fix the bad habits I picked up during the years and I make myself the best version I want to be. I think it's really common to come here as someone who does every change to get their S back just to notice later that they enjoy doing the changes for themselves.

The most important advice is to drop the dependency and to become an individual again. You can select how you think and emotions will follow.

[Holding]

I agree LC. I think the majority of the DR book is for M's that are on rocky ground, but not as far along as we are - more of "we're having some issues" and less of "OMG it's over". I can't remember where I saw it, but MWD has an article where she talks about how a sitch with a WAW is one of the hardest things to turn around.

Improving ourselves is really the only thing we have the power to do.

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=holding]I agree LC. I think the majority of the DR book is for M's that are on rocky ground, but not as far along as we are - more of "we're having some issues" and less of "OMG it's over".

Most people here are in the position where their spouse wants out or thinks they do.

That's just the reality of this demographic and I think MWD has written that or said it on TV. But it's also true that most LSBers think their situation is hopeless.

LC

have you been helped or affected by any advice on these forums? I'm asking.

[lcause]

Most people here are in the position where their spouse wants out or thinks they do.

Sure but one can identify the cases where hope is not lost. E.g. Benni's case to me was one of those where I could directly read his wife still being firmly in the M. Most of the people so find this way too late.

That's just the reality of this demographic and I think MWD has written that or said it on TV. But it's also true that most LSBers think their situation is hopeless.

That's because the fog. After few months of hard reflection one should have a much better view of the sitch. E.g. my XW doesn't give a tiny crap what I do, about what I've done or how I've changed.

LC

have you been helped or affected by any advice on these forums? I'm asking.

This forum is FAR MORE VALUABLE than the book itself. This is interactive and let's you open up. People here are similar minded and do not judge. Without this forum I wouldn't have even started my healing process. Without this forum I doubt I would have started to enjoy self-improvement material. Without this forum I would have wasted a long time before I could have seen the positives of the divorce.

[25yearsmlc]

1) Wow, who said you can decide where there is the most hope and where there is the least?

And


2) Seeing the upside of divorce "because of this forum" is ironic to me.

It was not my experience at all.

[lcause]

1) Wow, who said you can decide where there is the most hope and where there is the least?

No one. But you can read the sitches and get a pretty good overall feeling. If the S pursues a lot after the BD it's a pretty good sign... If they are completely indifferent it's just better to continue your life and weight it if it happens. If they get angry of how you act and yell you haven't changed, it's obvious they are really attached still.

Ultimately people should personally be able to judge quite far how hopeless they are.

2) Seeing the upside of divorce "because of this forum" is ironic to me.

It was not my experience at all.

Indirectly. If I didn't join this forum I would still be pathetic loser begging her to stay. After spending hours and hours with self-improvement material what I found and pursued because of this forum I realized life doesn't have to be bad after a divorce. I don't agree with MWD. I do think a lot of people marry for wrong reasons and love can certainly die or You can fall in love with another person matching much better. You should get out of M as life is too short to be lived with someone who doesn't contribute to your happiness

[Treasur]

I think as LBS we all take our own journey too and it will bring us to different conclusions and choices.

And with hope? I think with an MLC spouse, it's actually pretty simple. Are there signs that they are thinking about anyone other than themselves...if not, step away.

[lcause]

I didn't mean to be arrogant and I'm sorry if it came out that way.

[Treasur]

Didn't read it as arrogance at all, lcause, Just you figuring out your own path forward.

[Benito]

I think the problem most people find is that they come here to find the magic formula of what will work.

A 'step by step guide of what you need to do to win your marriage back' if you will.

But that isn't the case at all.

In the beginning people are so lost that they will listen to anyone and try something different to try and stop themselves from drowning and to stop the pain they currently feel.

In reality this isn't the case.

You take from the advice what you will. But the general rule of thumb is improving yourself as an individual and to stop yourself from exhibiting the sort of desperate behaviour that drove your partner away in the first place.

Its fair to assume that if the people we are today (after identifying our own weakness) and taking part in GAL activities, there is a very good possibility that our WAS would not have walked in the first place.

Not every marriage can be saved, but at its basic level a marriage is a relationship between 2 people who need to be healthy individuals who compliment each others lives. So at this level, if 2 people feel like their basics relationship needs are being met (which the rules try to encourage) then there is less chance that the marriage will break down. When people do break up, In essence you are only swopping issues you may have with one person and replacing them with another (hence why so many second time marriages fail) - so yes I do agree that getting a divorce isn't the best option as it doesn’t really address the real issues underneath and more often than not people find themselves in a similar situation in the suture but this time with someone different. Do you get divorced again? - or accept that marriage is an dance between 2 people (rather than a fairy tale idea) where both have to work in tandem to make it successful.

You feel as though it doesn’t fit your situation because you cant see the results. The results in any ones case on here is more often than not - recon. But that is not going to happen if (as per your posts) you have suffered from low self esteem and depressive thoughts etc for a number of years.. You cant shake that off in a few months. Your posts do jump around a lot (you were having dark thoughts a week or so ago) and your ex W certainly with not believe any true change has occurred if she has lived with it for a number of years.

A lot of the "I have changed" or "I don’t want WAS back" so early on in the process...is a self defence mechanism to shield us away from the harsh reality that we were not someone who was attractive to be with in the first place and they have left because of that. I would bet my bottom dollar, that if 12 months ago, you were having a healthy relationship with your W and you had a job you liked etc.. You wouldn’t be speaking like this now. Its easy to brush things like this off because it isn't giving you the desired results.

But there is the issue, there isn't anything to 'work'. You cant control them. You just hope that by being in control of your own life and having a v positive outlook/mentality moving forward that you will meet someone to share your life with. Just because your ex W isn't 'bothered about your changes' (which is complete mindreading by the way), that the advise is harmful. Words on a page aren't harmful, they are merely pointers, the only harm is when you fool yourself into thinking that if I follow these steps then all will be OK and things will be fixed.

My situation is far from fixed. She left in March and we are now in September. The wedding ring was off, she sent me back the honeymoon money and she was viewing houses, it was done as done can be without signing any divorce papers.

Did this advice help change that? - yes it did. Not in the sense that 'That it helped convince her' - but more in the sense that it made me realise that I need to be the driver of my life who is in control of where I go, rather than being reactive to my partners reactions/wants and needs. Anything that happened after that: will be truly organic.

I do not use my W's reaction to what I am doing to judge whether or not the knowledge I have gained from here is valuable or not. Simply because my own behaviour is a result of the advice I have gained from here. The reaction of the W is a completely separate entity, so whether she comes back or not, it is no reflection on any of the advice I have gained from the books or from here.

I do agree that a lot of it is very "americanised" and isn't relevant to my situation but the basic message underneath it cant be faulted in my opinion - but that’s probably because im not interested in the result (my W coming back), and more interested in realising how much of my life I has spent on autopilot and living in a glass half empty mind-set, and I am happy to be able to put that part of me firmly in the rear view mirror - That will then put me in the best possible position for someone to be attracted to the real me which will give me a more genuine relationship - be that with someone new or with her.

[lcause]

I find it interesting that supposedly you didn't build any shields but managed to drop the rope so quickly, yet others can't do the same.

I realized I wasn't happy either. Simply as that. I'll answer better later but I find your mind reading about me a bit arrogant. Maybe it was a revenge and I apologize if you took my comment as rude. I remember telling you that you have a very good chance.

[Benito]

I find it interesting that supposedly you didn't build any shields but managed to drop the rope so quickly, yet others can't do the same.

I realized I wasn't happy either. Simply as that. I'll answer better later but I find your mind reading about me a bit arrogant. Maybe it was a revenge and I apologize if you took my comment as rude. I remember telling you that you have a very good chance.

Wowzers.

I haven't took anything you have said as rude at all. I appreciate all the comments that you and everyone else makes on here. We are all in the same boat.

Not one part of me has found anything you have said offensive, nor am I trying to be difficult towards you. I want things to work out for you.

The point I am trying to make is that reading through your posts, there are numerous times that you mention how different things are for you (socially) and your not sure these things work for you.

I am not speaking from a higher ground. I am still living alone and nothing is sorted so I speak from my experience here and nothing more

You question most of the advise or guidelines we/you are given, and put a different spin on it that your situation is somehow completely different than everyone elses.

For example - You 'know' that she isnt taking your changes onboard.. Can you explain how you know this?

The only way you 'think you know' is based you comparing what she used to be like, to how she is now.

In other words, how you believe 'she should be acting' if she were interested.

But you have no idea because this situation is new to both of you plus both of you arent the same people anymore. So in reality its complete guess work.

Thats factual. You simply dont know.

If you want to believe its done, then fair play to you. But as you have said previously this thread will turn into a personal growth thread if thats the case.

I dont think you truly want that because if you did you wouldnt be focused on why this doesnt work and why you think its harmful.

This advise isnt to get you both back together.. thats just a bonus which comes from letting go 100% and letting things happen with wanting a certain outcome from it.

[lcause]

Why I think my situation is different? Because I think we weren't a good match to begin with. I came here because I thought I lost the love of my life but it was just a fog.

What I question about the methods of changing and monitoring is that it can lead to false premises. DO NOT CHANGE TO BE A PROJECTION SOMEONE ELSE HAS OF YOU. CHANGE ONLY IF YOU TRULY WANT TO. Let's say your spouse complains you don't want to ever travel anywhere while they'd want to spend all vacations traveling. If you truly do not want to travel... And you try to change to travel more... it will eventually eat you alive. It is better to find a spouse who shares the same values. If you are unhappy in your relationship, you have to realize you make your happiness - in this case, you find someone who suits your own views better. People do get married too quickly and marry the wrong people. I consider myself one of those. I had my head down in my butt and I was too codependent to see this earlier.

This is why I am done. I TRULY FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART believe we are going both to be more happy this way. We can both find people who share the same love language and so on. I have grown tremendously and I feel I'm going to be able to offer so much more in my next relationship. Of course I'm still sad and sometimes get angry how relaxed she is about kids not suffering etc. But being together only because of kids is worse than breaking up.

The changes? Frankly put I don't care if she notices or not. I'm not acting anymore. If I don't go meet people I don't wear cologne or dress up nicely and so on. I just don't care.

What I talk about social is that I understood social interactions are and have never been that high on my needs list. My happiness stems ultimately from overdoing something I thought I wasn't capable of. Just managed to come up with a solution to a problem I've thought about for 6 months and not exaggerating, it felt almost if not as good as an orgasm

I agree with you. Be the man/woman YOU want to be. If that saves the M so be it. If not, don't let that define you - you will find someone better suited for you.

[Benito]

This is why I am done. I TRULY FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART believe we are going both to be more happy this way..

It that's how you feel then good for you. Something to build on moving forward

[lcause]

Yes with a slighg correction. Not moving forward. Moving on. This will be my last update here unless asked and if I still read. Thank you everyone for the support you provided, trust me you helped a stranger in their darkest time.

I now see world full of possibilities and that I don't have to be a something someone else wants me to be. I can achieve anything I want and a relationship isn't currently high on that list. Again, thank you and good luck in your lives

[lcause]

Sorry to ruin the previous premise but I had to update that I finally got the closure. I told my XW I don't care what she does anymore. I just hope she can guarantee S can develop a proper father-child relationship with me or at least tries her best despite having met a new person already. She said she will do all in her power. I thanked. I feel relieved.

Also Benni8, I don't know if I understood you correctly in
> The results in any ones case on here is more often than not - recon.

Recon is much more rare on a reasonable time frame.

Thank you

[25yearsmlc]

LC

your path was a short one, for someone here. Not sure about the semantics debate, but when I noticed your resistance to social GAL advice, I saw an asocial tendency.

I wondered if you'd choose to change that & become more emotionally giving or open.

You were quick to see hopelessness in your situation (hence your screen name). Maybe you resisted GAL with new people b/c you just aren't into that, by choice. Not a lack of social skills but an actual disinterest in growing that way. Which is unusual in my experience.

Below, you stated:


What I talk about social is that I understood social interactions are and have never been that high on my needs list.

Well, this ^^^ is you.

But connecting with others more deeply & with more intimacy is a need most of us have. I suspect that Includes your wife. (Maslow, Carl Rogers and Carl Jung discuss this more completely in their work if anyone is interested.)

By definition, connecting at a deeper level requires an increase in our vulnerability, and that is a scary risk. Most of us think the payoff makes it totally worth it.

Brene Brown has empirical research into the "payoff" and why vulnerability is a core element of a loving r.

So maybe you & your wife are too different. No judgement there. I just don't see your point of view as a common one, or as a teaching point.

I hope you are happy or at least at peace someday soon.

[lcause]

Of course I'm disinterested in social contact because my brain does not release dopamine from it. It's something I have to learn but it isn't highest in my list.

I am vulnerable. Always was.

I am far more happy than in ages. I have seen that I am wise but it is just my neurotransmitters, habits and my mind that limits me from getting where I want. I feel that my R has limited me too. Now i can even go back to uni if I want. My XW was so mad when I told her that I maybe want to study more.

[lcause]

Also, 25, thank you for being there for me. It isn't what you "hoped" of me. I just want to let you know that you of everyone should know that this process isn't just a snap of fingers - it comes with time. I could be totally interested in social contact in half a year. My brains are just messed up and I'm working on fixing them. But I still don't see myself wanting the M ever back. I don't know if ten years from now we both happen to be single and really, like she said, found each other again... but for now and the foreseeable future, I'm going to be better off

[Holding]

LC, good luck with things. I hope you continue to explore who you really are and find the happiness you need in life.

[lcause]

Thanks holding. I definitely will!

You are free to lock this one Cadet. Thank you once more for letting me be around to be supported by these wonderful people in this forum. This combined with BD will be something I'm going to be eternally grateful for.

I leave one advice for others possibly reading this through. Trust in time. Nothing happens directly. Everything requires time. You don't lose weight in a day, you don't gain noticeable muscle in a week, your behavior will not change in a month but a surprising amount of self-improvement can be done in a year. Be positive, trust yourself and learn to enjoy the process. Watch out, you CAN become addicted to self-improvement. Just allow yourself take time and progress in baby steps.




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