24 Mths in..I gotta whole lot of living to do now

[Irish M]

Here are the links to my past threads.


Post 1 - Wife goes deep into the tunnel

Post 2 - Wife still in the tunnel... more fog

Post 3 - No clue where wife is can't see past the fog

Post 4 - 2016 a new year .. Getting out of my own fog

Post 5 - Finding myself and leaving my wife to her MLC

Post 6 - A new day is approaching

Post 7 - Me and my 2 daughters

Post 8 - XW showing signs or just MLC script

Post 9 - 2017 - New Year - Same MLC but i'm moving along

Post 10 - Looking for a miracle

Post 11 - Who's fault is this again? Can I forgive her?

[Irish M]

I left off with the question of forgiveness.
We all struggle with this or chose to not go there. No need for it or still holding on to anger and will never give it... even if it will give us peace. Or just being indifferent to it all as we can't control it or help it, so we move on.

Indifference is absolutely the place to be in all this ... I have found its where peace lives.

I agree with you Cali. I am past anger and resentment. I am at a point where i just don't care. even that seems harse and cold but its reality. I don't dwell on what she did. The hurt she caused the girls is her own. Maybe this if forgiveness to some. Its peaceful for me. I struggle with what she is doing to the girls because they are teens, they deserve better. My teen D's are going through the struggles of life already, finding out who they are as individuals. Mom in crisis is just the cherry on top.

I am here for them and I will let them vent until they are blue in that face.

Forgiveness is a gift you give YOURSELF.

As per my statement above. I think that is my forgiveness. Has nothing to do with her. I have nothing to forgive myself for as I am not the cause of her crisis. forgiveness is probably a bad choice of word for this , It should be called enlightenment or acceptance.

I know why and what she did. Its not her fault. Its not mine. I accept it and will leave her to it. No anger left in me. No regret as there was nothing I could of done to avoid it. No need to watch or attempt to help. My path is me.

This is a tough concept. I have spent some time trying to understand why forgiveness *really* is for us. We know that it's for healing. We hear that all the time.

But I read somewhere that the real reason we forgive is because we, none of us, are so perfect that we would not need forgiveness ourselves. To forgive is to admit that deep down we would want to be forgiven if we did the unforgivable. And yes, it is to admit that we too could do the unforgiveable.

It's certainly not easy to do.

On that angle I agree. Not easy. My situation is a lot different as I don't interact at all with XW. If she was constantly in my face , abusing and doing what she did when she left. I would be angry and no forgiveness would be had. I would be in a constant struggle of trying to break free.

But I am out of that game. I have my thoughts and I have you guys. Showing me that this is a crisis. Its not mine. Leave her be. let her figure it out and I move on. Life is too short to dwell . I am at peace with my loss. I accept it.

Hi Irish , just on the forgiveness thing, is it necessary or even needed ? Imho no. We move on and we let go of our upset , we let go of the love we had for them and we get on with our lives , hopefully meet someone special and live our lives.

AMEN. move on and find our peace. Let the MCLr figure it out. Forgiveness is definitely not the right term to use for this personal peace.

Irish, may I stick my head in and comment on the subject of forgiveness?

Hi Sandi. anytime :-)

I have tried to forgive. But how can one forgive someone who does not ask to be forgiven or even shows and remorse or accepting of their behavior.

Forgiveness is not a feeling. It is a choice. The other person asking for our forgiveness is not a prerequisite. It's not even necessary to tell them you forgive them. That's a personal decision for you.

If she had owned it. I could find myself to forgive.

It seems to make it a little more easy when they come to us broken-hearted and humbly ask for our forgiveness. Real strength is required for us to forgive those who are arrogant and stupid. Forgiveness is not based on their abilities......but our own. It is not based on their character, but our own. Forgiveness is not merited, for it is truly an act of grace. Therefore, they will never deserve forgiveness.

My current situation .. no forgiveness is needed as it will not be taken as forgiveness. It will be taken as brushing it under the rug. Forgetting about it.

It is not our responsibility as to how they take our forgiveness. Forgiveness is not condoning the offense. It is not forgetting the offense. And yes, forgiveness is for us, for without it.....we carry a cancer within ourselves and it eats away from the inside out until we no longer are recognizable. Unforgiveness is a thief that robs our peace and joy. Our forgiveness may not be desired, appreciated, or recognized by the other person......but it surely is needed for our own spirit to be free.


((Irish))

yes, yes and yes. Sandi i appreciate your words so much. The deep meaning of forgiveness is the same as my deep feeling i have now with my inner peace about me and xw. I know i don't have to forgive her and i probably wont. She is unaware of me wanting to if I ever did. her acceptance of it is her own. I agree so much with your words.

I accept her crisis. I am in an enlightened place (because of so many of you here). Hopefully my daughters when they get through the crisis years of teens and hormones they too will find that peace with what happened.. All I can do is continue to love them and treat them with the respect they deserve. Guide them to make good choices and be good to others.

We can call it forgiveness .. but i know it as acceptance and letting go. Nothing to do with forgiving her. Whats to forgive. Shes not well in a crisis. We move on and find our peace and also enlighten ourselves to a better place.

[Irish M]

Hi Peace
pulled your reply off of the past post

Some really ideas and thoughts on forgiveness

I think it is a gift..we give it because we can- not because the other asks or even deserves it
not for me to judge..the gift is for me..for my growth and maybe it will help the other as well
we forgive so we can teach our kids to forgive
we forgive and we are free-

sometimes it starts by just changing a thought from fear or hurt or anger to love:

I wish them the best
I hope they are blessed
I hope they are happy and have everything in Life I would want for myself

we say it each time that person come to mind
eventually we believe it
we do lovingly let them go
It is for the best
70X7

Hi Peace :-)

i agree with it all. like i said in my reply above.. forgiveness isn't the term i like using for this inner peace we find.

Do i wish her the best or Hope she is blessed... and finds happiness..
NO> i don't. . i don't wish her any of that.

what i do wish for her to find the strength and love to be a better mom to the girls. .that is all i wish for.

as fr he letting go part.. i am gladly past that point.
i wish her no harm and one day I know she will have some sort of relationship with the girls.. when they are ready.

[bttrfly]

So I come up for air from the college search long enough to see this ... this has been a topic of discussion in my IC for the past two months, including tonight's session.

I feel like I understand what happened, what the contributing factors were on both sides that caused my marriage to end.

A part of me feels no forgiveness is necessary as I know he is suffering.

Another part of me is hurt, angry, etc that he bailed on us. That exh was quite simply not capable of keeping his commitment to me and our family.

Trying to hold the two in balance is exhausting work.

To me what is meant by "Forgiveness is for ourselves" - my exh doesn't need to hear me say those words. I'm trying to get to a point where I truly feel it in my heart. I know the day that I heal that split between no forgiveness is necessary and the other side which is quite opposite, that's the day I will be truly free.

For me- and this is just for me, so take it for what that's worth- I believe that forgiveness like joy is a choice. Forgiveness is something private that I acknowledge deep within so that I can be truly free. It's not acceptance. Acceptance is understanding. Forgiveness is several steps beyond understanding. It allows my exh to truly be whomever it is he chooses to be. It has elements of equanimity, love, letting go, and compassion is its foundation.

This is just my definition of it.

just my $.02.

back to the college search xoxoxo

[bttrfly]

here's another thought. as a Catholic, part of the sacrament of marriage vs the sacrament of Holy Orders is that in marriage you truly learn Christ and God's love for us by fully loving and knowing one other person vs serving others and seeing Christ and God's love in many.

By that definition, it seems to me that even this horror show known as MLC presents us with an opportunity to learn about Christ's and God's love for us, through loving and forgiving our errant mates. What I mean is that we humans have an infinite capacity to epically mess up anything and everything, yet we are still taught that Christ and God love and forgive us.

It seems to me that as married persons our vows were to try to emulate that love to our mates, in sickness (MLC) and health, for better or worse (who knew how bad worse really was?), for richer or poorer (especially given the MLCr's propensity to spend spend spend), til death do us part.

Just because we are no longer married doesn't seem to me to be a reason to stop loving someone. And I believe loving someone doesn't mean we need to put up with the MLC BS, abuse, lack of remorse, etc. And to truly love, doesn't that mean we will also forgive?

It's like being angry at someone for having hazel eyes instead of blue ones. They are what they are right now. We can't change them. We can't expect them to give or be that which they are not capable of giving or being.

And here's the unexpected bonus for us: we don't have to live with it any more.

And here's the truly saddest part: no matter how fast or how far they run they still DO have to live with it.

Sorry for my philosophical ramblings on your thread. Clearly it's time for me to turn in for the night.

[25yearsmlc]

As a fellow Catholic and DBer, It was a goal to be able to see h thru God's eyes.

Butterfly, I felt joy for brief glimmers of time I really saw my h in his best, divine light.
Oh how I loved him...
I turned my cheek when he crushed my heart and left us for 2 years...off/on and wounded our d's...

a decade later I wonder if seeing h thru God's eyes was the greatest thing I'd done of my life, and moving to Alaska was the greatest most selfless thing I had done only to have h change in front of my eyes, to a resentful man who bought things without anyone else participating

so I wonder if it was the most gullible/delusional thing I had done, b/c he slapped my other cheek and broke our youngest d's heart again just years later.

I don't regret loving him deeply, I did feel it. And I was damn loyal too. I did not get that back from h, and that's not the worst thing in the world.

But I projected my love and integrity onto h, (& mistook his hard work for character)

and conversely he projected his use of other people onto me, as if I was "using him for his money" as he had used me as the touchstone of our family, which he could leave for any "career goal" OR Hunting/fishing trip which HE deserved!

when in reality all we ever wanted from him, was his TIME, but all he'd give was small gifts of money from the WORK HE did.. Which, somehow, he resented. I cannot think of a single time, ever, that he thanked me for being a SAHM. I mean, not once.

HE was gone so much

He created the very alienation that he later came to resent with our children.

Butter,

my h made a series or selfish choices, and he lied about them, and this was over a lot of time AND it was not the first time. It's not really like blue eyes, is it?

I fear that The longer I love him -in anything other than a detached way-, the more I'll risk being hurt again. With our history, that would be violating my own boundaries.

But I hope i won't start hating him. The marriage was once a beautiful thing, then it became a terrible thing, now I'm creating a new life of truth & intention. Not blending into someone else's goals/dreams, only to lose mine. No thanks.

Life is short and God gave me life. I want to live it now, without a person who abused my trust and repaid me with lies and contempt.

No thanks. That's done. I look forward to feeling indifference.

[Treasur]

I prayed for the longest time that I would see my H's face with life in his eyes, the core of him showing. It has been 2 years almost and he is still lost on dead shark eye land. I feel sorrow and compassion for him.

I would not have chosen this for either of us, but it doesn't change what was real and a blessing before my H was diagnosed with a mental illness. If it hadn't been good and real, none of us would have fought so hard to keep faith with our M's would we?

I can't hate the broken creature that is my beloved, even if I hate his behaviour sometimes. I thank God for the love I have known, for the kindness of strangers and for the ability to see hope and light in a future life.

[bttrfly]

If it hadn't been good and real, none of us would have fought so hard to keep faith with our M's would we?

I can't hate the broken creature that is my beloved, even if I hate his behaviour sometimes. I thank God for the love I have known, for the kindness of strangers and for the ability to see hope and light in a future life.

Thank you!

[bttrfly]

25 a better analogy on my part would have been an illness (nurture) vs something genetic like eye color (nature). For me, and only for me, this is how I view my sitch and my exh.

also, everyone's sitch is different, and everyone's viewpoint is different. You've certainly been through a very long haul, and continue to go through it. I'm happy to take this to my thread so we don't hijack Irish's. xoxoxoxo

[Treasur]

I see it as both/and, 25. I think my H had psychological weak spots from FOO (nurture). Severe depression seems to be an immeasurable mix of situation/biochemistry.(both?) And the way he handled his own crisis looked like a mixture of free choice, textbook depression and unhealthy emotional coping skills.

I think we do reach our own viewpoint in our own sitch/M. I guess for me:
- the person I loved would not have freely chosen to destroy his whole life and be under psychiatric care, no more than my mother would have chosen dementia
- easier for me because I saw him fall apart into a shaking, frightened suicidal mess in the first few months and a lot of his behaviour has been frankly weird and nothing to do with our M
- blame doesn't really change anything. I choose to love this human being quietly regardless. If he had ever asked for my forgiveness, and for his own mental health a bit like an alcoholic, he would also need to accept that he is accountable for the effect of his behaviour no matter the cause, I suppose.

[CaliGuy]

Irish .. I will propel this talk as its a very good one that we all must at the least touch on at some point.

I can not recall which thread but this very topic came up and went on for a solid 5-6 pages in my story.

When I see forgiveness I always think back to a night in church. As I have shared I became Catholic as a part of this journey I was sent off on against my will, looking back was clearly one of the best things that was to come out of all this for me. As a new Catholic I actually struggled here .... knowing I should try to love as God loves, live my life according to His teachings I struggled with this forgiveness thing. So it was two parts ... the first part was just to realize I was in absolutely no position to judge, not with all I have done in my life.

But the second part ... the forgiveness was harder, not only forgiveness towards my MLCr ... but also the OM. How can I forgive both of them for destroying the one sacred thing I had .. my family, my marriage? So it was a December where the church called in 25 priests to take confessions prior to Christmas, almost like a Drive in Confession type thing which seems less formal than the traditional confession. I wait in line and get to a priest and share with him that I am still dealing with anger and holding back forgiveness and struggling with it. I will never forget this till the day I die. He actually asked me if I remembered what Jesus said as he was crucified and up on the cross ... I replied with the famous "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do". He said "That is correct, but notice Jesus did not say 'I forgive you' ... he asked the Father to forgive them because I believe He Himself was not ready to forgive those people and asked God to do so." I sat there stunned. He said "Continue your path and when you are ready you will be able to forgive them".

That's the thing with all this, there is no rush to forgive them today, tomorrow , next week. When you are ready you will be able to freely forgive. And I agree ... its more for you than for them and I do not believe you really need them to ask for forgiveness to be able to forgive, that has no relevance .... they could ask for forgiveness today but you may not really be able or willing to forgive for some time. Accepting this line of though was liberating for me, no deadline, no pressure and thats where the true forgiveness should come from ... it should be natural and not forced/guilted just because we feel its what we need to do.

For the record ... almost 4 years past I am not sure if I have completely forgiven, I have however arrived to a place where I am not allowing her actions to be my anchor and keep me from moving forward to where I need to be. I have few bad feelings towards her, conversely few good ones either. I can look back at memories and smile and appreciate them for the good times they were ... and also see the bad times for what they were... just bad times.

[bttrfly]

{{{{{Cali}}}}} thank you. xoxoxo

what's especially beautiful about this, imho, is that it's one more thing to turn over so we can go about our lives and in so doing, we grow, we learn, we live, eventually we find peace. then one day maybe we wake up one morning and realize that we've forgiven them in the process of just living our lives and taking care of ourselves and our children. maybe forgiveness is a by-product of a well lived life? xoxoxoxo what do you think?

[Gordie]

Irish,

Thank you for bringing up this topic. I am not finding that inner peace and have learned so much from your journey. I'm getting to the not caring what she is doing...but have felt a little guilty about that, but see that is a step in the process.

Cali,

That story really hit home. Wow, I've never thought of those words in that way. Something to pray about, for sure.

[Irish M]

Hi Bttrfly, Cali, 25yrs,Treasur and Gordie.. amazing views on forgiveness. very interesting topic.

You all said the right things... if it be god or inner peace that guides us. Forgiveness to me is letting go. Like you say, it doesn't matter if you tell them or not.. its for us to find that place.

We all loved the ones that are suffering or ill. We can't dwell on the old memories of when that person loved us and life was going as planned.

Yes , I also found indifference. A self protection mechanism I assume. But it comes with no guarantee. Occasionally I drift back into resent and anger. Time is the only thing that will get me to the place I need to be.

I think I am on the right track and everyone that sees and interact with my girls see that we are all healthy. Sure we don't have the same dynamic as the 4 of us together had but I think we made it out so far so good.

I had some more echoes of XW this week. Her father is still alive, weaker but alive.The cancer that should of taken his life 19 months ago has not won just yet. An employee at my Quebec city office has ties to XW family. He himself is living a nightmare similar to mine. So family genes is definitely a play in my sitch. He is currently separated from my XW cousin.

I brought D17 to the dentist. She had braces put in when when she was 15 going on 16. The nurse there knows us very well and has experienced XW manic state on 2 occasions. Well. my insurance paid for 90% of the bill and me and XW agreed on paying the balance 70% me and 30% her. She of course dragged out her end and finally made payment last month. The secretary who also is aware of the situation as she is also dealing with a missing in action MLCr . He left to work as a farm aid 4 hours away. Left her and 4 kids behind. Well Ex shows up there to pay the balance. She asks hows D17 braces going. Does she need them still for a long time. She must be anxious to get them off. The secretary says.. well she had them removed early 2016. Ex says, I know that. and walks out with a shaken look on her face.

Now I have sent photos to her ( in the first year to update her, I have since stopped since the beginning of 2017) and she had a common friend stalk my Facebook and copy pictures. ( I unfriended and blocked since) . So she is or should be aware of the no more braces.

Also XW's dads GF,left a message on my cell. Not to me but to XW.

Hi (XW) , its me .. Please call me. On my cell . here is the number. Call anytime. 999-999-9999

I text EX the message. she relied a simple thanks


It got me thinking about her. Of course I dip into the good memories and they get swallowed up with the bad. Then I shake it off and continue my path. This is what usually happens.

then I thought. its been over 2 years. the last face to face with her was in August 2015. I don't count mediation because she refused to make eye contact and was curled up the the corner of the room on her chair.. so no face to face or eye contact then.

I do remember her eyes in Aug 2015, as dark shark eyes. No emotion and clearly in another state of reality. Smirk on her face as if she has a plan and clearly not the person I called wife.

So I messaged her this morning.

Xw, hope everything is OK with your dad. I was thinking. We should have a face to face. Something light. Its been 2 years and I think it might do us good. Speaking for my self of course.

A simple message. Lets see what happens.


hope none of you are in Texas. My prayers are for them these days.

[bttrfly]

Hi Irish. Nice to "see" you round these parts, my friend! I'm a bit blown away that you initiated contact with eew...

they definitely don't have the same grip on reality as the rest of us. It's quite sad to me.

You seem well and happy! Missed ya, bud!!! xoxoxo

[AndrewP]

I do remember her eyes in Aug 2015, as dark shark eyes. No emotion and clearly in another state of reality. Smirk on her face as if she has a plan and clearly not the person I called wife.

They must be all on the same medication or subject to the same alien mind-control ray. This exactly described my own ex during our legal meeting earlier this week.

[Irish M]

Hi Andrew
Again sorry you are here.

Yes they are all on the same planet now with these aliens replacing them on this planet and have no clue how to play the roll. So they are all over the place.


Sadly its not aliens , their brains that either took a left turn or just short circuited and sadly it will take a long time to repair itself. If it can.

Mediation to me was the worst. At least when she was in the house she monstered and looked at me (ok with the shark eyes) but at least their was a one on one.

Mediation was scary. To sit next to this woman whom I spent most of my life with and look at her with all the questions spinning in my mind . Who the heck is this woman? How can she be so cold? Does she not realize her lies are so obvious? Can she at least acknowledge me?

When she did say something to me it was to rewrite history to the mediator. I was lucky my mediator was a woman. At first it scared me. That she will take my wife's side. I feared that I'd have to fight to see the girls etc. But this mediator was a woman but most of all a mom and she saw clearly there was something lost about my wife.

Maybe it was the way my XW was dressed. Her accessories and new tattoos. You see, our fist appointment was early on and no real apparent changes to my XW appearance was noticeable, to me yes but to the day to day people no really. But as the meetings went on. Clothes started changing to teenish styles and hair styles changed 3 times, new tattoos of ravens and NEVER AGAIN in bold letters tattooed across her forearm . Knifes as earrings and of course her lies. The mediator would catch her in them often.

What I think really did it was my XW saying. I don't want the kids. He can have them. They are (my last name). Where do I sign.

Hi Bttrfly

Yes it is odd behavior from me. reaching out to my XW. I think it was curiosity that got the better half of me. I am curious to see where she is at . I know you cant really on the stages as they bounce all over the place.

Most likely there will be a no reply. I'll be honest. It hurts me that the girls don't see her. My heart is broken for that one reason only. I could care less about a relationship with her. The girls , its not fair that they lost an amazing mom to this MLC crap. 2 years in a teens life so much happens. She missed it all but the girls missed out on a mom.

Wishing you all a great week. Stay the course.. it does get better for yourselves... our MLC will have to catch up if they can.

[Irish M]

so a short reply from my XW today on my invite to meet up after 2 years.

Yes, definitely. I know i have done bad things to you and I regret it. And I understand if you want to see me before bringing the girls into it. I'm available anytime. just let me know.

now I get this message today. days after i sent the question. Its her normal reply to anything. Weekend is never reply , only answer doing work when she is away from OM .

she added.

We can meet Wednesday after-work and this address coffee ship.My dad is struggling.He is still hanging in there. He is now completely deaf. Has trouble speaking and knows his time is up soon. I will see him all day Friday.
I downloaded music for my dad. hope he can listen to them.
I hope your parents are well.

I replied yes sure. Wednesday sounds great. Lets see in the next 2 days what happens // if those plans change.

No expectations and I don't want her back. Once I meet her and feel she is safe.. the girls can go if the so choose to meet her in a similar public location.

[OwnIt]

Irish, this is really a saintly move for your girls. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but in my first meeting with my children's counselor she told me that even the children of convicted murderers pine for their parents and want a relationship with them. While ultimately it has to be their choice, I would hope you would urge them to go at least once.

My H's abandonment of my children has not been as extreme as yours, but while they tell me they don't like him and don't want to see him, they come back in a manner that tells me they were happy they went. While they don't want to do it often, it seems to bring them some sort of peace to see him for themselves.

[bttrfly]

Well, that should be interesting, n'est ce pas?

Godspeed xoxoxo

keep both hands in your pockets, as the saying goes for when you're around those who are untrustworthy.

[bttrfly]

and I cannot = absolutely can. not. imagine any parent ever saying they don't want their kids. That just mystifies me. I've often thought your ex's issues may have started with hormonal drops/peri-menopause gone psycho ... the age is about right, the fact that her sister got meds that helped her through it at the same age ...

but your description of her transformation... eeek. scary stuff, Irish. truly scary stuff. She definitely deserves prayers and fierce compassion, but again, also both hands in pockets to protect yourself and especially the girls.

Isn't it a trip to sit next to the person you've spent most of your life with and wonder,"Who are you?" I asked myself over and over, did I ever really know him? Was it all a lie? That is a huge mindf(*& for the LBS and a tough place to be. I've found a measure of peace by stopping that train of thought and working on accepting who my exh is now - a man who doesn't want to be married any more and wants to be a hands on dad to our son. The rest is irrelevant to my future.

I think it's a terrible place to end up - a sad chapter to a story that started with so much love and promise. We have to remember though that it's only a chapter, right? It's not the end of OUR story or OUR lives, even though sometimes it may feel like it is.

Thinking of you bud on Wednesday. {{{{{hugs}}}}}

[rd500]

Hi Irish, very surprised to read you had contacted ex. If its not to presumptuous, did something happen to bring this on ?? The mlc ( from what ive read ) can last upto 7 years or longer , why would you ( potentially) open old wounds ??

Obviously feel free to ignore my questions.

If this is for your girls are you not ' interfering ' in their current wishes ?? Again , my apologies if im asking too many questions.

Take care , Rd

[peacetoday]

It should be an interesting meeting and you will gain more insight and knowledge into her situtaion

Maybe try to listen to her-you will know more and that will help you to understand

I ran into my XH best friend a few weeks back
He said he spoke to xh last year when XH reached out to me and his friends on VM and was trying to get sober again..

Friend said XH could not get sober and his OW/young wife texted best friend to leave XH alone and stop texting him ..

best friend who is a sober and successful man was appalled that H ow wife would discourage his sobriety and wellness,,
another day in the life of a mlcer..best friend has not heard from XH since
so my XH remains in the throws of disease and addiction with a wife that wants him to stay sick

[peacetoday]

some things may be better left alone

the best
peace

[Irish M]

Irish, this is really a saintly move for your girls. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but in my first meeting with my children's counselor she told me that even the children of convicted murderers pine for their parents and want a relationship with them.

Hi Ownit.. thank you. It was a decision that was spinning in my head for some time now, on and off.

My H's abandonment of my children has not been as extreme as yours, but while they tell me they don't like him and don't want to see him, they come back in a manner that tells me they were happy they went. While they don't want to do it often, it seems to bring them some sort of peace to see him for themselves.

Yes, my girls need to see their mom. I encourage them as long as they feel safe and together. The girls do miss her.. the old her. They need to see this new person and decide if they want a relationship or not at this time.

and I cannot = absolutely can. not. imagine any parent ever saying they don't want their kids. That just mystifies me. I've often thought your ex's issues may have started with hormonal drops/peri-menopause gone psycho ... the age is about right, the fact that her sister got meds that helped her through it at the same age ... but your description of her transformation... eeek. scary stuff, Irish. truly scary stuff. She definitely deserves prayers and fierce compassion, but again, also both hands in pockets to protect yourself and especially the girls.

hi Bttrfly , hugggsss back

I agree. From what she is now and who she was... its 2 different people. mLc or just plain crazy who knows. MLC fits the mold but she is clearly on the extreme cases. Yes her sister got help but has not spoken to my girls at all since. she is after all D17's godmother. .. missing in action as well. So no expectation from that side

I've found a measure of peace by stopping that train of thought and working on accepting who my exh is now - a man who doesn't want to be married any more and wants to be a hands on dad to our son. The rest is irrelevant to my future.

exactly what I need.. It's the last piece of the puzzle to find my complete state of peace. I accept already who she is now, so I have that part.. the other part is seeing my girls with that peace as well.

The conversations we have from time to time and especially when their mom pops her head out of her hole at special events.. its tough. I don't necessarily defend my XW, but i do know she is not well. Do i use that as her sole excuse , no. Me as an adult I understand all this. My teen daughters however don't. They are asking to see her then change their minds right after once they start stirring up old memories of bat crazy mommy.

Hi Irish, very surprised to read you had contacted ex. If its not to presumptuous, did something happen to bring this on ?? The mlc ( from what ive read ) can last upto 7 years or longer , why would you ( potentially) open old wounds ??

Yes 7 years, So no expectations. What brought this on was weird echoes from her and discussions with my girls.
As per my reply to Bttrfly.., i am at the point I need full peace. Not worrying about my girls deep feelings and fears..Seeing their anger or pain every so often has its toll. they are curious.. many questions.. They also wanted me to contact her. Break the ice to see if she is somewhat normal. i know thats a long shot.

Obviously feel free to ignore my questions.

If this is for your girls are you not ' interfering ' in their current wishes ?? Again , my apologies if im asking too many questions.

Hi RD, Anytime and all questions are good questions.

Completely for the girls with a partial for me.. having them at peace is what i need . It hurts seeing your kids hurting. When you are powerless to help. Don't get me wrong, they are not crying all day and in major depressions. It comes in waves with memories of and MLC mom touches. it's still tough. its one roller coaster i wont get off.. I'm in for the long haul with my girls and this crisis.

what comes from this meet up is only going to move us forward. There is no taking steps backwards.

It should be an interesting meeting and you will gain more insight and knowledge into her situtaion

Maybe try to listen to her-you will know more and that will help you to understand

Hi Peace. Yes I hope to. we will see how it goes. No expectations and I have no agenda. Just scoping the terrain before the troops attack.

I say that because the girls started talking about scenarios and each one ended with them letter her have it. |You see all 3 of us missed that part . She left and we had our jaws on the floor. Missing in action is great. No fights, arguments or anything,. But sometimes you need that to move on.

so my XH remains in the throws of disease and addiction with a wife that wants him to stay sick

that is very sad.. she is keeping him weak and sick to keep her grasp on him most probably. Hope he does find it in himself to break free one day. so sorry you live this. We do love our old wives and husbands.. our partners.. Sad to see them destroy everything even themselves. getting off that roller coaster and not watching the train wreck is probably the best advice here. As you said... some things may be better left alone


with that tomorrow is a new day.. We will see what it brings

[Irish M]

well.. as expected.. No meet up.


It's ok. It was an attempt by me to get things rolling if that was at all possible. I will explain to the girls that she is not ready to hear what they have to say.

It started with a few messages last night.

Great, what time do we meet? I wast to follow your lead on this. She says

I am at a training tomorrow and not sure what time i finish. I'll text you. IS it the same number?

No. its changed. I work for so and so now.

ok , talk to you tomorrow. The girls are aware and even wanted to come. After talking to them I found out they want to vent. So I think its best we meet first, then work together with the girls. I strongly recommend mediation between the 3 of you to discuss all that has happened. The girls want me their but I promise i have nothing to say about what happened. It is between you and them. Once they feel comfortable ,. I hope they will reconnect in some way. Even if its only via messages for now.. its something.

no response, so all is good for a peaceful night sleep.

I get a call from her dads girlfriend. I see the number on my phone and my heart sank. I think right away, her dad died. I know we weren't close but its still the girls grandfather.

I answer the call, He's still alive but on his last days. Asks me to bring the girls rush to be by his side. Now I start to tell her the girls said their goodbyes already... she cuts me off and says. Irish, you are the adult. Before he dies it would be good he sees them. Now I passed my message and did my job. Its all in your court. My job is done.

I tell the girls about his condition, they don't want to see him die, hooked up to a machine in palliative care. They want to remember him as they saw him.

So today is the day.. it unfolded as such.

I get to my job site, today I was training rescue workers in confined space. Several incidents in this province has sparked a demand in training because of a few unnecessary deaths have occurred. 1 death to me is too many.

Anyway, I set up my equipment, sit for a few moments and verify my emails. 1 from XW.

Irish, I don't think its a good idea if we meet. All 3 of you are stuck in the past and haven't moved on yet. They should of forgot about it all and want to see me. It must be you holding them back. Also, I don't need you running this. I can manage the girls alone. I am their mother. Tell them to contact me. I am done talking to you.

Sorry you feel that way, the girls specifically asked me to step in because they feel unsafe and worried about who you are. As you know , talking about what happened is natural. It must happen to work things out. They are going to be very rough with you. Angry teens. Clearly it is you who is not ready to hear all they have to say. The door is open and I'm available. It is for the best interest of the kids. I will respect your wishes and let them know.

They can't talk to me in a manner to upset me. They cant spit on me. They need to respect me. Accept me for who I am.

For 1, they have never , ever spit on you so not sure where that is coming from. To call you out on things it is expected. If you can't deal with it then it's best we hold off. This can work 2 ways.

Option 1 - I work with you, as long as it's in a healthy way for the girls. It won't be easy for any of us.

Option 2 - You can wait until they are in their 30's and they reach out to you because they became mothers themselves and they are curious about you.
Which is what our neighbor did and she sees her mother 3 hours a year at Xmas.

I'll wait until they are 30


so that's it.. she decides to sit on her high horse and let the dice roll.
I gave her the opportunity. I took into consideration that she never was the first to make a move. Thought maybe she is still following her character. I was wrong.

I guess my bad. Lesson learned.

It is for the best however. Clearly she is not ready to face the music of the girls

[job]

Irish,

I am sorry about the meet up...but I am not at all surprised by her responses. The guilt is eating at her and she can't face you or the girls. She can't face the consequences of her actions and she doesn't want them to see her the way she is now. The person living in the past is her.

She won't wait until they are 30. Her father's death (when it happens) will send her in a tail spin.

For now, let it go...you've done all you can to bridge the gap. The ball is now in her court if she wants to see the girls.

[bttrfly]

I am unsurprised.

You did way more than anyone would've ever expected you to do. You did it for your daughters.

Now you know.

I agree with Job, she won't wait another 13 years. I'm sure her father's impending demise has sent her off and running. Her circus. Her monkeys. Not your problem, nor is it the girls' ...

BTW, WTF is wrong with her? They should have forgotten all about their MOTHER turning into a crazy person who put them in harm's way?? And they should have moved ON????? How long did it take her to move on from her mother's breakdown? Oh, right. She didn't.

And the absurdity of the statement that you must be holding the girls back... I have no words fit to put on a family board.

They need to respect her and accept her for who she is? A. maybe they'd respect her if she gave them a reason to do so and B. It's a PARENT's job to accept their kids and love their kids unconditionally, NOT THE KIDS' job!!!!

Irish, no good deed goes unpunished. Let it go. Let that $h!t GO.

I know she's ill, but sometimes she makes me so angry I could spit nails.

[bttrfly]

oh and {{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}} xoxo I'm sorry. You tried. You're a good man and a great father.

[kml]

You handled yourself well. You can have a clean conscience, you tried. She's clearly just too messed up to deal with the guilt. She's clearly not well, but there's nothing within your power that can change that right now. Just get back to your life.

[OwnIt]

Irish, I could have written this about my H.

On Wednesday he texted my kids and said I'd like to see you this afternoon. They did not respond per usual so he bullied them via text until my daughter said they had plans. He said how was I supposed to know that when no one tells me anything. She said why don't you think about why we don't want to respond to your texts. He said you need to focus on the future and stop bringing up the past. Then he stopped communicating with them until Saturday and left in a huff from a planned outing with my S when he showed up 1/2 hour early and we had left the house for a showing. He never did see my D before she left for college.

In October when I told him that he was abandoning his children and destroying his relationship with them and he probably wouldn't hear from them until they were adults he said that was fine, he could wait until they were free of my noxious influence.

They don't mean these things. They don't remember what they say. She will come around again. I know it hurts on behalf of your girls, but she is sick. No mother in her right mind would behave this way.

I'm sorry you had to be reminded of what this does to them.

[mirage]

Irish,

I don't post much about my infrequent communications with my EXW. Suffice to say 8 yrs give or take post BD she still can't deal with things in a mature way. Still has to throw her hurt into every conversation. I very rarely respond, only if it's about the adult kids and then most of time it's the same thing.

I know my oldest and youngest, now adults have said to her "If your going to talk bad about Dad just stop, we will not listen, we know who and what he stands for". Until she does the work this is what your going to get.

You have chosen your path in this and have lived it well. I think you embody what it means to really grow up and live as a mature, strong responsible adult. It's really we who learn the lessons and live what I call a more considered life and it makes all the difference in the world. Life is a wonderful thing, you just need the right perspective.

Hang in there. I truly respect the journey you are living.

Mirage

[peacetoday]

Irish,

You did your best , now you know..she is not ready, her MLC is not complete

I think the only way they can face themselves is if they go full circle through the crises and find some help along the way
but sadly, I believe many MLCers get stuck and can't complete their journey

they get trapped in addiction which seems to have similar effects as MLC

breaking addictions are very difficult on their own , and add a real crises to it and you've got a major mental issue

we have no control on their ability to heal or get through it

WE help them with our acceptance and forgiveness (which you tried to give her)
but she is incapable of living in reality..so she lives in denial

its her only way for her to survive and she needs it

I know you want the girls to have their mother as she was but the door has closed and maybe its best to leave it alone

I believe strongly that if the MLCER ever gets through it, really get to the other side and clean themselves up
nothing will stop them from contacting us and their kids
and
if they continue in in addictions and MLC,,nothing can help the reconnection

You did well
if you can put closure on this and know your girls are ok and will be fine
trust Gods plan
let her go

[Brubeck]

Irish,

You are a bigger, better man than me. You've been reaching out time and time again, in spite of her dismissive responses and accusatory statements. She's messed up - big time. She hasn't figured her way out of MLC yet, so she sure isn't ready to do the work necessary to reconcile with her daughters. I truly wouldn't have bothered this much myself. The patience and persistence you've shown is amazing.

I don't think there was anything wrong with your conditions for meeting up or the tone / language in which you suggested it. She's clearly not on steady ground, and you don't want to leave your daughters alone with her. Understandable. She may have rejected the offer as your presence would have been 'controlling' to her.

Maybe you never mentioned it before, but I didn't know about the NEVER AGAIN tattoo. I don't know what that means for her, but it sounds like real MLC crazy. My W's MLC tattoo was just a monochrome flower above her ankle.

Irish, I don't think its a good idea if we meet. All 3 of you are stuck in the past and haven't moved on yet. They should of forgot about it all and want to see me. It must be you holding them back. Also, I don't need you running this. I can manage the girls alone. I am their mother. Tell them to contact me. I am done talking to you.

This email has all the ingredients of the MLC emotional cocktail. A splash of avoidance, sadness, anger with plenty of projection and denial. Still deep, deep in the tunnel...

Spoil yourself, damn it. You're a great dad doing it alone. You've earned it.

[rd500]

Hi Irish, i dont think your surprised at the outcome and i think the mlc is still running its course.

Your being a great dad and an amazing role model for your Ds, if you dont mind me throwing in my pennies worth i just want to say i in a similer position to you and i know how much the kids look to you for stability and guidance, your giving them that and more.

Exw is lost and is missing her childrens lives. Youve tried but exw sees your efforts as controlling or anti her so time to leave it be. Exw will move heaven and earth to be with the girls IF she recovers from MLC.

Live your life , tell us how things with the new lady are progressing, my sons have meet my new lady but im very cautious about the girls meeting her because they are young and need to be protected. Im only in the R for 4 months so its early days.

Take care , Rd

[Gordie]

Irish,

I agree with everyone. You did your best. Your w is not ready. It's her loss, her giant loss. I don't understand the parents who abandon their children.

[25yearsmlc]

Irish

sorry about your situation with the AWOL W...

Similarly, my h has not seen our kids in a year, sent a text and check after Christmas, ignored birthdays and cut off college tuition for our youngest. There's more but I think you get the point. It truly surprises and baffles me. I would never have imagined him doing this.

So, Nope, I don't get it. A million theories are offered, but i tend to think that it'll get less likely they reconcile with the more time that passes.

So much wreckage that the "AWOL parent" will see too high a mountain to climb, and just give up. And my kids don't seem to want to reach out to him anytime soon. They are hurt.

I know I would never remove myself from them. But then, I have the problem of projecting my own values onto my h, and that has kept me stuck longer than anything else.

We all tend to do that for awhile. We assume we know how they must feel b/c WE would feel that way in the situation.

But we are not them and they are not us. I found a site that helps people who are not aiming at reconciliation. (Chump lady) It says something along the lines of "trust that they $uck". As harsh/funny as that sounds, the point is valid.

Keep your expectations very very low.

Again, sorry you are here. Your ex wife's loss is bigger than she can know, literally.
Because she does not know, what she does not know.

I remind myself sometimes that it's not about what our WAS lose, it's about our own gain.

We are our children's rock. That matters maybe more than anything else we will do in life.

Jackie Kennedy once said that raising her children to be close to each other was her "Greatest achievement...without feeling good as a parent, nothing else I do could matter much."

Amen

[Irish M]

The guilt is eating at her and she can't face you or the girls. She can't face the consequences of her actions and she doesn't want them to see her the way she is now. The person living in the past is her.

You are so right Job, I know its avoid or die.. her loss. I am glad I tried. No regrets. It's who I am.

I know she's ill, but sometimes she makes me so angry I could spit nails.

Bttfly xxx this made me laugh so much.
Yes Ewww is lost still and if she wasn't it would be her breaking down the walls to see her kids.

You handled yourself well. You can have a clean conscience, you tried. She's clearly just too messed up to deal with the guilt. She's clearly not well, but there's nothing within your power that can change that right now. Just get back to your life.

hi KMl :-)
I did it because I need to give my girls every chance I can to have normalcy. My conscience has been clean since day 1. If this was for me I would of said pass. The girls needed to see this as well. It helps them move on.

They don't mean these things. They don't remember what they say. She will come around again. I know it hurts on behalf of your girls, but she is sick. No mother in her right mind would behave this way.

I'm sorry you had to be reminded of what this does to them.

Hi Own it,
Your H and my XW must be made from the same DNA. crazy how they think. Yes ill.. i know. Sometimes I find it hard to believe that they don't remember what they say. My XW seems to stand her ground. Their brains just don't work the same.

Sorry for your kids to have to live with this. They are the true victims.

I don't post much about my infrequent communications with my EXW. Suffice to say 8 yrs give or take post BD she still can't deal with things in a mature way.

Hi Mirage
Sad to hear that. I know there is no real time line on when MLC ends. No one should expect it to ends because even if it does that person will not be the same. They would have taken on all that they lived through during the crisis and it will now be part of them. I ask myself often.. would I date her as such a person? Would I introduce her to my children and family?. answer is always no.

you did well, your adult children answer well putting their mom in place. They know who you are and what you did to support them. I want the same from mine. You are a class act to follow.

I think the only way they can face themselves is if they go full circle through the crises and find some help along the way
but sadly, I believe many MLCers get stuck and can't complete their journey

they get trapped in addiction which seems to have similar effects as MLC

breaking addictions are very difficult on their own , and add a real crises to it and you've got a major mental issue

Hi Peace :-) Yes, facing themselves is the biggest challenge. It takes a certain person to wake up one day and realize they trashed so many loved ones and then have the courage and strength to fix it. It's a lot of work for the MLCr. We know our spouses and we know if they have this strength in them or not. Mine doesn't. I always had to initiate talks if we had an argument.s She would rather go to bed and wake up with a smile, new day and forget about the yesterday. In knowing this. If my girls have any chance it will be wither me or them that initiates it. In the end it will be her to decide what she wants to do with that open door. She's not ready.

Maybe you never mentioned it before, but I didn't know about the NEVER AGAIN tattoo. I don't know what that means for her, but it sounds like real MLC crazy. My W's MLC tattoo was just a monochrome flower above her ankle.

Hi Brubeck
well, shortly after her disappearance with OM. I finally see her in mediation, not sure if she saw me because she was clearly avoiding any eye contact. Her arm had the Edgar Allen Poe phrase of the Raven poem, if you can call it that. NEVERMORE in bold black letters covering her entire forearm. Along side a black raven. The poem talks about him never seeing Loenore his lost love again and never find happiness. The Raven represents madness that will nevermore leave.

At the same time she started posting messages on Facebook.. saying things like " I hate when the voices in my head go quiet... i never know what those f**ckers are up to"
also "finally found my freedom and I'm living my dream, those who want to wait can wait.. anyone else can go F themselves."

This email has all the ingredients of the MLC emotional cocktail. A splash of avoidance, sadness, anger with plenty of projection and denial. Still deep, deep in the tunnel...

yup.. I think she dug a new depth in the MLC tunnel.. the current one wasn't dark enough.

Live your life , tell us how things with the new lady are progressing, my sons have meet my new lady but im very cautious about the girls meeting her because they are young and need to be protected. Im only in the R for 4 months so its early days.

Hi Rd.
yes life is moving on. I too it slow introducing my girlfriend to the girls. I actually talked about her more and more until they got intrigued and wanted to meet her. Their decision, I didn't force it on them. In the beginning I always kept it light and we did small activities. They like her and see that I am happy.

They said as long as she isn't moving in next week, doesn't try to be their mom and doesn't smoke cigarettes or pot like XW's loser OM.
Also she must respect them and me.. they are happy. She has a boy 11 years old. Great kid. Also gets along with the girls.

It took months before they met her. I even held her off from meeting my parents. We live a weird life with all this MLC. Not everyone is going to understand what happened, what we deal with and have the patience to be by our sides and support us through all the echoes and drama it may bring in the months or years to come. So far so good with her.

Happy to hear you are taking it slow too.

Your w is not ready. It's her loss, her giant loss. I don't understand the parents who abandon their children.

Hi Gordie

Yes it is.. all on her. I know what you mean. I've heard about dead beat dads.. but mothers is new to me until I came here. Its crazy to even imagine doing this sort of thing. I feel bad sometimes when i travel for work, leaving them alone or at my parents.

Also to think back 3 years. If someone said my wife and loving mother would leave the kids and not see them for 2 years, i'd say they were nuts.

Similarly, my h has not seen our kids in a year, sent a text and check after Christmas, ignored birthdays and cut off college tuition for our youngest. There's more but I think you get the point. It truly surprises and baffles me. I would never have imagined him doing this.

So, Nope, I don't get it. A million theories are offered, but i tend to think that it'll get less likely they reconcile with the more time that passes.

So much wreckage that the "AWOL parent" will see too high a mountain to climb, and just give up. And my kids don't seem to want to reach out to him anytime soon. They are hurt.

Hi 25yrs

I truly hope we get some reconciliation between a MLCr and their kids. I actually still have hope for her.

As I said above. When the time is right she will need help with this, if I'm still open to helping her then good. It was not in her nature to reach out even prior to MLC. She never learnt that skill. If she picks it up great but I can't expect her to do that.

If one day my door to help her connect with the girls is completely closed then she must seek help elsewhere. Time will tell and so will her actions.

My only job here this week was to see if she was ready. Clearly she is not otherwise she would of stepped in the door and done something positive for the girls.


Great plans upon us as it is labor day weekend here in Canada. So, a 3 day trip to the states to enjoy some R&R with the girls and my parents. I wish there was something we could do with the exchange rate though... its not cheap.

Hope you all have a great weekend.
Especially the birthday girl Bttrfly.

[AndrewP]

I truly hope we get some reconciliation between a MLCr and their kids. I actually still have hope for her.

As I said above. When the time is right she will need help with this, if I'm still open to helping her then good. It was not in her nature to reach out even prior to MLC. She never learnt that skill. If she picks it up great but I can't expect her to do that.

If one day my door to help her connect with the girls is completely closed then she must seek help elsewhere. Time will tell and so will her actions.

Hey there Irish. Just killing time on a Friday of a long weekend. I've not been keeping up on your story too much but swing by from time to time kind of like that neighbour you rarely see but you trust to keep an eye on your cat.

I think we are in very different places with this. In my case both of my kids are grown - not quite to that "30" that you were mentioning to your X but still fully adult.

I've been working on paying no mind to my X's communications with the kids although I do know that she does communicate with them. No idea how often or context.

You are perhaps the better man because you are keeping a bit of an eye on your X and hoping that she journeys through and out of MLC and reconciles with at least your kids. I hope you've taken that completely off the table for yourself now that you have a NG in the picture.

Oh - and when this all started she also got the obligatory tattoo. Perhaps it's a mail-order kit for people who dive off to play with the fairies.

What really struck me though and perhaps it was included in the kit was this idea that the kids need to accept her and her choices and perhaps still be the kids that were left behind. Also in my case my STBX hasn't seen our daughter since 2015 but she has seen S23 from time to time but not very often especially considering that she lives 5 minutes away.

I saw this clearly during our collaborative / mediation meeting last week where she still had the anger and attitude that our son should be very responsive to her texts and pay attention to her. Not a darned thing about his struggles or her trying to help him. It was "me me me". It sounds like your X is stuck in the same sort of place.

Will she ever change? In her case I doubt it but must honestly give the answer of "I don't know". I don't see any path that gets her a closer relationship with the kids - only one that leads progressively farther away. In your case you are still hoping it seems for her to find her way at least back to the girls.

My un-called for suggestion is to remove the idea from your mind. Your girls seem like very wonderful and very aware young ladies. Whatever will play out will play out between them and their mother if it ever does. I was actually thinking myself this morning that when I finally end up divorced that I want to have nothing in common with the woman with whom I once felt that I had so much in common with. Not even the kids. The kids have a strand of my DNA and a strand of her's. The commonality if any is their's and their's alone. Not mine.

I hope you have a great weekend with your girls! Mine will be quiet I expect but that's rather how I like it.

[OwnIt]

Ah Irish, the poem and tattoo is too much. Mine posted stuff on FB just before hot and heavy with OW2 about Odysseus' desire to return home to his wife and kid. Just part of the crazy soup. Instead he took up with a single mom that OW1 told me he'd been talking about for a year. Ah the joys of being with a narcissistic MLCer. At least you are divorced from yours. That has proven very difficult for me.

[Sotto]

Hi Irish, I think it is the right thing to do, to help keep the door open for your ex W to reconnect with your daughters at some point. I think MLCers are so sensitive when it comes to any suggestion that they may have done something wrong. And from her reaction, it sounds as though she's feeling that way. She sounds resentful of your involvement, and unhappy about how her girls feel towards her. And yet her actions and decisions have helped create this situation.

I think we have to try and live every phase of our lives in a way that we can look back on with peace. Try to do our best, by ourselves and by others. Try not to cause pain and to decently and honestly deal with tough things. I'm sad that your ex W will come to feel that she has lost something most precious. But she isn't in that place just now and there is still a me, me ring to her replies. In truth, she would need to find more genuine remorse and humility to reconnect, and I truly hope that she does.

I don't see this as yours to fix Irish - only to support and help keep that door ajar for your girls. Take care and I hope you have a lovely weekend :)x

[25yearsmlc]

Try to remember that FB can be merely a highlight reel for people who want to rub their happiness and WONDERFUL LIFE in some one's face, or convince others AND themselves that their choices were all worth it!


Don't get me wrong. I totally understand the graduation pictures or a wacky fun thing you did, and I've posted pictures of my late mom on the anniversary of her passing away, with a note about remembering a great woman.

As for pictures or words about a new R after a marriage ends, particularly a marriage with children,

should not be posted.

1) at all, or 2) only after the divorce is final AND long over, and the kids are in the acceptance phase.

Let's get real.

If i met a GREAT GUY tomorrow and we began dating that night and we both felt the spark -- it would still take months of cautious optimism to grow and deepen into adult love

and after that, and only after that, would I make a public peep.

The over the top pictures are odd and in poor taste, at best. Intentionally cruel at worst.

I've heard of many people posting about their life on fb, only to learn later that their FB page had very little to do with what they were really experiencing. In fact I think it often over compensates. My sister's ex h posted about a trip his gf and he took to Ireland. Lots of impressive places and beer and then off to Italy they went!! Ta DAAAAA!

A month later that ex h called my sister about a reconciliation. He was "not happy at all" and wanted my sister to know that he "gets it. He F---ed up. Biggest mistake of his life"....

and she was engaged to someone. She told me she'd always feel sad for the kids and what she and they all had gone through. But she was in a different place and her new h really really made her THE priority in his life. She just felt that no matter how her ex had changed, he would never really put her first. She'd be very lucky if she matched his importance to himself as that would mean he had "really changed at a cellular level."

Too much water under the bridge. The point of this example is not about regrets so much as how his Facebook posts were much more about the TRIP, and not the R he was in.

BTW, he married that gf too. After asking my sister to take him back. My sister is lucky in that she got to hear the big regrets and that makes her in a tiny minority.

FB can be like a stage for actors who have stupid lines, from an adolescent script.

Not worth the toll on us to even look, much less take in.
I hope that gives a bit of perspective. I remind myself of this when I'm tempted to look at h or OW.

I'm glad so far b/c I have never looked at his page or hers. I've been informed a bit too much, to be honest.

(BUT I had a dream of h and OW! It was horrible. But in my dream OW was a muttering hillbilly, so I'm going to stick with THAT image...

((( )))

[25yearsmlc]

PS

2 of my kids have come right out and asked me to "stop defending dad! And don't tell us he 'loves' us".

Regardless of how I feel about that, it is their right to set a boundary and I will respect it. (I had believed that reassuring them was my duty).

Turns out it takes a lot of psychic energy to maintain an illusion about someone, when the contrary evidence mounts. We are not that important to h. He spent 2/3 of the last decade doing his thing and commuting home on weekends or living in another state for a variety of reasons.

As an MD there was no credible reason for his living away, other than entitlement and the now obvious desire to be a part time family man, which is NOT really a family man.

The kids are 31, 28 and 20. The 20 y/o - I worry b/c she has the worst r with h

b/c he missed so much of her life by HIS choice. Hard not to feel rejected when, you know, you are rejected. He cancelled her college tuition last month too, and it's a private university with a total cost of over $50k If not for my older kids helping out big time, d20 would be taking a year off. Which would have been an even bigger blow than his withdrawal of the one thing he had provided, money.

We paid for the other 2 kids college so it's boldly unfair...

From what I understand, h feels sorry for HIMSELF (Like your wife will and does)

b/c the kids are not supportive ( )

and my guess is that he blames me. Which is rich.

Last but not least, my T said that kids grow up and the parent of the opposite sex tends to be their role model for how the outside world will treat them.

The mother usually nurtures them and comforts that and represents the internal, "home",

but the career and r's with OPs, are more affected by the opposite parent's r with them.

In your case Irish, your girls are lucky young women and have a better chance at a healthy R with the men in their lives, and confidence in how the world will greet them,

than if your marital roles were reversed.

Bravo, Irish, well done.

[Irish M]

You are perhaps the better man because you are keeping a bit of an eye on your X and hoping that she journeys through and out of MLC and reconciles with at least your kids. I hope you've taken that completely off the table for yourself now that you have a NG in the picture.

Hi Andrew.
hope you had a great weekend.
i wouldn't say a better man , my sitch seems a little more extreme since she chose 100% abandonment of all that once was.. kids, friends and me of course. I sometimes wonder what it would be like to have to deal with her on a weekly kid exchange. Then I think about the girls. They are better off this way, not seeing her crazy. I also believe they will open up faster to her if she emerges from the shadows and healthy version of mom.

as for the option of her and me getting back together. I can;t see that happening at all. I am happy growing this new, healthy relationship with my GF. it does come with some hiccups.. but so far so good.

At least you are divorced from yours. That has proven very difficult for me.

HI own it ((huigs)). Yes the divorce. It was needed to happen. Her monster stopped when the papers came through. I truly believe it must end the old relationship before anything can happen. They need it to end. I'm not saying it will wake them up but I did see a change with her messages.. less monstering.

I think we have to try and live every phase of our lives in a way that we can look back on with peace. Try to do our best, by ourselves and by others. Try not to cause pain and to decently and honestly deal with tough things. I'm sad that your ex W will come to feel that she has lost something most precious. But she isn't in that place just now and there is still a me, me ring to her replies. In truth, she would need to find more genuine remorse and humility to reconnect, and I truly hope that she does.

Hi Sotto ((hugs))
that's all we can do is try our best and be treat them the way we hope to be treated one day. My relationship is over. My girls 15 and 17. That what really hurts. I pray they have half the relationship they had with their mom. They deserve it. I miss seeing that connection. I too truly hope she does the work one day and I know I will help the best I can.

As for pictures or words about a new R after a marriage ends, particularly a marriage with children,

should not be posted.

1) at all, or 2) only after the divorce is final AND long over, and the kids are in the acceptance phase.

Let's get real.

Hi 25yrs ((hugs))
I too agree with this. I haven't changed my status on FB seeing someone. I don't have a pic on my profile of my GF, Yes some vacation pics of all of us but no lovey dovey ones.
The girls are still way too sensitive. Its not needed.

The over the top pictures are odd and in poor taste, at best. Intentionally cruel at worst.

My MLCr did just that. One week after moving out and in with him. Soul mates.. and finally away from the old life. It devastated the girls . I'm so glad they deleted her and avoided looking at her page. Even today they don't look. Its a good thing. It only causes pain.

Its crazy but what isn't about all this.

[Irish M]

Update on me FIL. He past away last night peacefully. I got the news today on my way back to Canada. XW also added that she will let me know about the service and that me and the girls are welcome to come.

That would be very uncomfortable. Since all of her immediate family hasn't even spoke to any of us in over 2 years. Her sister who is the godmother to D17 hasn't reached out.
I think we will pass. We sad our goodbyes to him a few months back.

I wont lie. His death did affect me. Its all very sad that this is where we are and the girls are not part of any of it. I know we only saw him a few times a year but its still hard.

I told the girls on the drive back. The refuse to go so I will respect their wishes. Its sad.

I did reply to her message.

I am sorry to hear that. At least he is at peace and no more suffering. How are you doing?

Not so good. I am a mess. thanks for asking.

I left it at that.

[HaWho]

My condolences Irish.

I hope in her grief your exw awakens to the fact that time is finite and sets her priorities accordingly.

[job]

Irish,

My condolences on the passing of your FIL. He suffered quite a bit towards the end and he's now at peace and suffering no more. I'm glad that you and the girls went to visit him months ago.

I think you are very wise in passing on the "invitation" to attend service. If your xw opts to share info about it, thank her, but then let it go. Your xw is going to be a mess for a while, but we shall see if this gives her "pause" for thought about what she's done and continues to do.

Again, I am very sorry for your loss.

[SBJ]

Irish, my condolences on the loss of your FIL. I understand that you had emotions for the loss, as I know that I have a tight connection and relationship with my Ex's family.

Stay strong my friend.

[rd500]

Hi Irish , sorry for you and your girls loss , the man is now at peace.

Take care , Rd

[bttrfly]

I'm sorry for your loss Irish. As others have said, he's in a better place now. How are the girls taking this? Hugs to all of you xoxoxo {{{{{{{Irish}}}}}}}

[Irish M]

Hi HaWho, Job, SBJ, Rd and bttrfly.

thank you all for your messages. I didnt think it would of bothered me as much as it does. I'm more sadden for the girls to have not been as close to him and with their mom during this difficult time.

What also breaks my heart is he died as a LBS. His XW never gave him that sorry letter on what she did to him and his family. Its tragic that he witnessed his own daughter repeating it after his diagnosis with cancer. Its all heartbreaking.

The daughters did show remorse and teared up. Still no change in their plans not to attend the funeral.

I replied to her message about being a mess.

Our sympathies for your loss. Hope you can take some time off soon.

thanks again for your sympathies. I'm taking it one day at a time. I have to work as you know in sales can't miss a day. I'm just having trouble not seeing the girls. I wish I would see them during this hard time but I'll go through it alone. Thanks for asking

I'll leave it at that. I'm sure she has a lot on her plate.

[Irish M]

Got home tonight and the girls were in a deep discussion on their mom..

They said they find it weird that she wasn't with him when he died. She was aware that he had 2-3 days. on his death bead in palliative care. He ended up dying alone without his 2 daughters near him. Ok my XW lives 2 hours away. Her sister in 15-20 mins away.

If my parents were that close to death I would be there with them. Especially if its a long weekend.

Just goes to show you their values and priorities are out the window.

So September and October will be busy months for me. I have another 6km Mud run with 25 obstacles. A parachute jump i got as a gift on my birthday, a trip to Winnipeg , a road trip to Salem for he witch museum and Halloween activities and of course Halloween back home with my garage converted into a haunted house for he neighboring kids.

Oh and I finally got my approval to fly my drone in the states.. so If you are in the Salem/ Boston area.. look up. I may catch you on film.

[Gordie]

Condolences re your FIL. Good for you for honoring your D's wishes and really kind of you to ask XW how she is doing through all of this.

[Gordie]

Hit submit too early. I also found what you said about divorce needing to be final before your XW could stop monstering. Very interesting.

[bttrfly]

So I want to note something about death that's often true: people often wait to pass until their loved ones are no longer in the room. It's a very common thing, I don't know why that is. When my uncle died my aunt had spent practically every minute in the room with him, only leaving to go to the bathroom or shower, which she did right there. That's when he left - when she was taking a shower. I think it's somehow easier for the one who is passing to go when their loved ones are not present.

Perhaps eew and her father had an agreement that she not be there - maybe she didn't want that to be her last memory of him.

----

you're going to be in Salem????? You should check out the local endangered animal education center in Ipswich. Sundays are good - especially 10/1, 10/15 and 10/22.

If you go, buy your tix in advance online.

I will look up since I'm very near Salem,

[roist]

Sincerest condolences and best wishes.

I imagine well that you have many feelings at this time some probably conflicting. You are probably right not to attend. I tend to think of death differently since I lost my dad and where possible I extend sympathy to those in bereavement.

You reached out to XW which I also agree was right thing to do. As job warned your XW is likely to be even more messed up in the aftermath and that is best to leave her deal with it.

I am sure her words sing as the same old woe is me without my daughters. One day the penny will drop for her that her actions inevitably lead to that. Until then try to be empathetic and realise that it really must be tough without them. Imagine if it was your dad and you hadn't your daughters.

Unfortunately it is likely that she will settle further into the pity party. Expect this, but let it slide. This is a tough time for her and I doubt she will be able to rethink her viewpoint until she absorbs this death.

Your upcoming plans sound great

[Irish M]

I also found what you said about divorce needing to be final before your XW could stop monstering. Very interesting.

Hi Gordie, thanks for your support. yes in my case she seemed like she was less tense. Having this marriage off her shoulders and giving her the freedom to live her single life with no guilt. However that freedom came with a huge cost. Only time will tell if that will one day affect her.

Perhaps eew and her father had an agreement that she not be there - maybe she didn't want that to be her last memory of him.

Hi bttrfly (((hugs)))
No idea. She saw him 2 times a year at best, so her staying the weekend of his passing would of been a stretch for her.

His roommate was there with her children. He lived with this woman for over 30 years. Separate rooms. She always pointed out to us that he was a roommate. I'm glad he wasn't alone when he passed.

I am sure her words sing as the same old woe is me without my daughters. One day the penny will drop for her that her actions inevitably lead to that. Until then try to be empathetic and realise that it really must be tough without them. Imagine if it was your dad and you hadn't your daughters.

Unfortunately it is likely that she will settle further into the pity party. Expect this, but let it slide. This is a tough time for her and I doubt she will be able to rethink her viewpoint until she absorbs this death.

Hi Roist
thanks for your support as well.
Yes its pity party for XW. I couldn't imagine not having the girls in my life. They say the same to me. We are a tight 3. Our bond was as strong before all this MLC. Don't get me wrong XW was as close. She had a hard time going on a week alone with me without freaking out on the fact that she wont see her girls. So to not see them and not have them during this hard time for her.. I cant imagine.


Well the service was held yesterday. We never got the details but I did tell her that we wouldn't attend. I did get an email form a website for his memorial page. Generic email from the site sent out to I presume all the people that knew him via his roommate.

It was upsetting to read.

XFIL he leaves his spouse and her children: child 1 (spouse) child 2(spouse) child 3 (spouse) and their children (1-2-3) . He also leaves behind his daughters XSIL (spouse) and XW (OM) and his grand children (1, D15 and D17) as well as his brothers and sisters


Now when I read this.. first think i noticed was his roommate was listed as spouse. That never happened. Even when we saw him a few months ago... she seemed annoyed that he was still there and she had to take care of him. She always held her ground that they were roommates . He cut the grass she did the laundry.

2nd thing I noticed was .. OM. listed as XW partner/spouse. Now if I would pass tomorrow. No way in hell would my girlfriend of whom I don't reside with and its only been months that we are open about the relationship . She would not be listed nor expect to be.

Don't get me wrong. I didn't expect my name there nor wanted it. But I didn't expect his. It is a disrespect to the girls. If they were still living together maybe that would be another story.

3rd thing and most important.. My D17 name is misspelled.
This family has known my D17 since she was born. His roommate knows her. Now it could be that the website made a typo but there are some pretty unique names listed in there and only D17 is messed up.

On this webpage you can leave a special note to the families. The girls said and I agree that we should leave one. We are better people and he was a good man down deep.

It was simple.

To roommate and her family as well as XFIL family our deepest condolences . We will be thinking of you all on this day. Irish, D17 ( spelled perfectly) and D15


So a busy week this week. Budgets, Winnipeg trip and finish it all up with the final mud race of the year.

Hope you all have a great week

[bttrfly]

Hi Irish xoxoxo
I hope this doesn't sound callous, because I do not mean it to - you are upset, and I understand why and agree with your reasons.

I will just throw this out there: the person who wrote that was obviously someone who didn't really care too much about truth or facts. You've said before this woman had questionable motives and boundaries.

As inappropriate, hurtful and disrespectful as this all is, please consider the source. You and the girls are absolutely in the right and handled it beautifully. Yes, you are better people.

xoxoxo

[job]

I agree w/bttrfly. Consider the source and then let it go.

[roist]

I like the message ye left. As for the rest, leave the circus to the monkeys!

Enjoy your mud run.

[rd500]

Hi Irish , understandable that the post stung however ir is what it is and things like this mean nothing in the grand scheme.

Always great to read about the magical bond between you and your Ds. They knew a family life with Exw and you but they now know they have a rock in you that will always and forever be there for them. You show them with actions how a parent protects their children through times of adversity. You stood and still stand tall and will continue to do so. Be very proud of yourself because your dealing with exw and all that it entails is beyond alot of people. ( me included )

Stay strong, Rd

[Irish M]

Hi Bttrfly, Job, Roist and Rd.
You are all right. its not my circus. I was upset and it hit a sore spot. This week I was quite busy. Budgets and planning for 2018. Putting out workplace fires between staff. But I didn't dwell on the obituary.

It was gone the moment I vented here. good thing. Great place to be.

Weather has been summer like this past week and the weekend looks to be the same. I'll try to leave the drone at home and go back to the old times of just using the Nikon camera. Lets see what I can capture.

Wishing you all a great weekend.

Irish

[Gordie]

Irish,

As always, you inspire me with how you make the best of a situation no one would ever want or imagine.

[bttrfly]

Hi Irish, glad you felt better after posting here. That's why we're here, hugs xoxoxo

YES! Break out the camera and go old school!

[Irish M]

Happy saturday everyone.

Well. XW is holding strong to her plan. Lets just say its been a weird past 24hours

It all started with a message from someone i confided in over 12 years ago. When XW first did this pre MLC act.
Hi Irish. It's been a long time. Are you divorced?
What happened?
Now this person is not a friend on facebook and it made me go and reconfigure my privacy features on Fb. With all the updates and changes over the years certain things are visible. This was a person i met out of town at a good moment when i needed someone to reassure me I was not nuts. She was single, i was Db'd

Yes i'm divorced. Things happen. All is good now though.

And the girls. they ok. is it like what happened 12 years ago?

Yes very similar but on a bigger scale. I have the girls full time.

OMG. she doesn't try to see them at all? Anyway the girls look just like you , they will be fine. If they are anything like you that strength will carry them through

Then I started questioning her motives in my head. Why after all these years reach out. I looked at her profile. She is married now (i'm glad). Her husband has the same last name as OM. Bingo. the world is a small place. I might be over thinking it, weird just the same.

So Iblocked blocked and blocked. I don't need that drama in my life.


So I'm working from home yesterday and I get my confirmation from an AirBnb I rented (had to change a mid Oct trip to a next weekend trip). I prepare the government form that I have to fill out to send to XW to inform her that I am taking the girls out of the country.
I send it off. receive a simple reply Thanks

Moments go by and another message comes in.
My dad ashes will be buried next weekend (name of he cemetery)

I reply a simple thank you.

message comes back.You know you don't have to advise me anymore. I don't want to hear from you. I will wait until the girls turn 30 so they will reach out to me.


I have to message you by law to advise you that I am out of the country with them . you have 2 options.

1- block my emails or send them to spam. I don't care. I just need proof i sent them, no proof needed that you read them. You can't prevent me from going or them. It is only to advise you.

2- Simply reply thanks.

I don't accept your plan of waiting until they are 30 and maybe by then they will reach out. The girls deserve more from you. They won't accept anything less. Have a good day

Get your head out of your a$$ and start being the mom you once were. Not for me but for them.


It was at that point I shut down my laptop. I will not look at any replies from her until Tuesday night. I have a lot happening this weekend and I really can't be bothered.

Yesterday I got my camera out. Chinese garden had huge dragon made out of lantern material. Some in the water. Got thee late so I was limited on the photos. So many people there. Darn tourist.

hope you all have a great weekend.

Irish

[bttrfly]

wow.
just WOW. so you think OM instigated the contact from the woman from 12 years ago? or eew did because she now knows these people through OM?

That is just ... bizarre!

Glad you changed your settings. Good move, I think.

So ... I'm going to just say it, and hope you understand I'm saying this gently and with loving kindness, because you are my friend and if friends can't be honest then who can?

My prayer for you mon ami is that you find a way to extricate yourself from being in the middle, advocating for what you think the relationship should be with the girls and eew. Eew fired you from that job. What she does or does not choose to do with the girls is on her and up to her. Yes, you are their dad, and a superb dad at that, but now that you've had your say it's best to leave the laptop closed. Do you know what I mean here? Of course the girls deserve more. Everyone deserves more. Sadly MLC has taught me this about life: we do not get what we deserve.

Love the girls, be the amazing father you are to them. Keep on giving them reasons to believe that there are good men out there.

You don't need to run interference with eew and the girls unless the girls explicitly ask you too. This is just my opinion. I could be wrong. I don't want to hurt your feelings or upset you. I'm simply saying gently to drop the rope on this one, so you can focus on what's truly important: you and the girls and your lives post D xoxoxoxoxo

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=Irish M]Happy saturday everyone.

Well. XW is holding strong to her plan. Lets just say its been a weird past 24hours


So I'm working from home yesterday and I get my confirmation from an AirBnb I rented (had to change a mid Oct trip to a next weekend trip). I prepare the government form that I have to fill out to send to XW to inform her that I am taking the girls out of the country.
I send it off. receive a simple reply Thanks


message comes back.You know you don't have to advise me anymore. I don't want to hear from you. I will wait until the girls turn 30 so they will reach out to me.


*I have to message you by law to advise you that I am out of the country with them . you have 2 options.

1- block my emails or send them to spam. I don't care. I just need proof i sent them, no proof needed that you read them. You can't prevent me from going or them. It is only to advise you.

2- Simply reply thanks.

I don't accept your plan of waiting until they are 30 and maybe by then they will reach out. The girls deserve more from you. They won't accept anything less. Have a good day

Get your head out of your a$$ and start being the mom you once were. Not for me but for them.


Irish,
If the law requires you to inform her, that's all that was needed. The rest of this^^^ is you saying hurtful things to a woman who is keenly aware that her r's with her kids is bad.

Your comments only serve to hinder any attempts she may wish to make to re-establish contact with them now or in the future.

Surely if guilting her was an effective strategy it would have worked by now. Dig deep and ask yourself what your goal in those comments really was.

She rents a lot of space in your head and you lashed out at her - maybe b/c she said she did not want to hear from you. But I'm not surprised she does not want to hear from you, given this^^^ interchange.

I think she is compelled to open your emails, b/c something notable or bad may have happened to the girls. And I think you know this.

So your jabs just look vindictive on your end and they are beneath you, don't you think?

There is a DB principle that says "Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth."

While there may be no hope for a recon between you and your x wife, I don't think you need to put any more boulders on her road back to the kids.

My h has not seen our kids in a year, ignored their birthdays & cut off the college tuition in our d20's 3rd year of college. (He still claims it as a huge expense of his, which takes some nerve).

But I swear If my h told me that he was going to "wait till they turn 30" and then they'd be in contact,
I would thank God.

My biggest fear is that he no longer cares and plans no future contact, whereas your w clearly does care, and however feeble her "plan" is, it exist.

Of course I know how badly your kids' mom has failed them. Their mom knows it too, and even if she did not, no comments like your above would wake her up.

I think we both know you are better than that.

How do you think you can structure future exchanges to either assist in their reconciliation - or at least not make it harder?

[25yearsmlc]

I hope your d's attend the ashes interment

I am one of 9 kids. When my mother died, all 4 former spouses attended her funeral and even my sister's former father in law attended. They shared grandchildren.

It was a great testament to my mother and showed that the former spouses could rise above their animosity towards their estranged spouses, to honor the decedent. And my mom was the grandmother of many.

If your FIL was a good man, what was your reasoning not attending? And why didn't the girls?

My soon to be former FIL is ill. He was in my life longer than my own dad.

I assume I'll attend his funeral when he passes away, unless I am asked not to.

And my kids will be there if I have to fly them out myself.

Guess I missed part of the thread that explains your reasoning on this.

You liked the man, right?

[Irish M]

wow.
just WOW. so you think OM instigated the contact from the woman from 12 years ago? or eew did because she now knows these people through OM?

Hi Bttrfly.
no clue.. it just felt off so better avoid. OM is from the same town as this woman's husband so it makes it very weird.

My prayer for you mon ami is that you find a way to extricate yourself from being in the middle, advocating for what you think the relationship should be with the girls and eew. Eew fired you from that job.

Yes I know I was fired. She didnt fire me from being a protective dad and wanting the girls to have a healthy relationship with their mom. It doesn't mean I can't want to best for them. I feel and hear their struggle dealing with their mom or lack of her. From morning talks about nightmares they have to the fear they share about having the same DNA as her. They continuously ask if they will repeat this as she and the grandmother both did it.

. you have 2 options.

1- block my emails or send them to spam. I don't care. I just need proof i sent them, no proof needed that you read them. You can't prevent me from going or them. It is only to advise you.

2- Simply reply thanks.

I don't accept your plan of waiting until they are 30 and maybe by then they will reach out. The girls deserve more from you. They won't accept anything less. Have a good day

Get your head out of your a$$ and start being the mom you once were. Not for me but for them.

Irish,
If the law requires you to inform her, that's all that was needed. The rest of this^^^ is you saying hurtful things to a woman who is keenly aware that her r's with her kids is bad.

Hi 25yrs

My points were to merely point out to her that she has no choice to receive these emails from me until the girls are 18.

Choice 1 was giving her the option to forward them to spam. I need to send them. Her saying she doesn't want them is too bad for her. i am obeying the law here.

Choice 2 was she can just reply thank you. I don't need a reply. Her comment is hurtful. Why is it ok for her to always say hurtful things to me.

not sure where you see that I was mean to her. Telling her like it is. Too bad if it stings her.
How do you know she is keenly aware that her r's with her kids is bad. Nobody knows

I'm at the point where I don't want to pave the perfect road for her back to me. I've done enough paving

I don't accept her letting the girls reach 30 before them trying anything.
I can't and won't do anything about it. I was simply saying i don't accept that as an answer. It's pathetic. I won't sugar coat it so I don't upset this woman.

Your comments only serve to hinder any attempts she may wish to make to re-establish contact with them now or in the future.

I see my comments as justified and clear to the point that she can chose what to do. i don`t have to accept it . I don't need to follow her rules anymore.

Surely if guilting her was an effective strategy it would have worked by now. Dig deep and ask yourself what your goal in those comments really was.

Not my goal at all. Not sure how you saw that as such.

She rents a lot of space in your head and you lashed out at her - maybe b/c she said she did not want to hear from you. But I'm not surprised she does not want to hear from you, given this^^^ interchange.

Again. she has no choice if I travel with them . It`s up to her to keep her comments to herself. I was simply informing her.

I think she is compelled to open your emails, b/c something notable or bad may have happened to the girls. And I think you know this.

So your jabs just look vindictive on your end and they are beneath you, don't you think?

You seem to think for my XW. How do we know what she thought of my message back to her. If it looked like a jab my last comment about her getting her head out of her a$$ well sorry. But that`s what she needs to do.

There is a DB principle that says "Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth."

While there may be no hope for a recon between you and your x wife, I don't think you need to put any more boulders on her road back to the kids.

Yes I know this rule. I followed it for over a year and a half. Until I finally realized that she is lost. 3 years of 7 years. There is no coming back for her from this. The girls will chose that for themselves later in life. Me trying to be nice guy is over.

My h has not seen our kids in a year, ignored their birthdays & cut off the college tuition in our d20's 3rd year of college. (He still claims it as a huge expense of his, which takes some nerve).

But I swear If my h told me that he was going to "wait till they turn 30" and then they'd be in contact,
I would thank God.

I`m so sorry you H is a missing in action dad.
My XW over 2 years, empty messages, blame and entitlement. Her plan, I don`t see that as a good thing. My girls will hold a grudge if this goes on until then. 2 years is enough damage to them, their lives are forever changed. They blame any bad thing on her. Adding to their resentment . I get a flat.. they blame her. You see why I wont accept her answer, her plan. I will have nothing to do with it and I will call her out on it if I have to. I don`t have to accept it.

My biggest fear is that he no longer cares and plans no future contact, whereas your w clearly does care, and however feeble her "plan" is, it exist.

How do you know she cares? She clearly doesn't if she continues her new life without them. She is a dead beat.

Of course I know how badly your kids' mom has failed them. Their mom knows it too, and even if she did not, no comments like your above would wake her up.

Again how do you know. I don't even assume that. My comment wasnt meant to wake her up. That won;t happen . I won't try.



Why should I be Mr.nice guy all the time. Its been 2.2 years and it has done nothing. Maybe mrs MLC teen like brat needs to be told to smarten up.
Is it a tactic to wake her up. Not at all. It's me saying it like it is. For her to take it or not. I am no way DBing.

I hope your d's attend the ashes interment

If your FIL was a good man, what was your reasoning not attending? And why didn't the girls?

Guess I missed part of the thread that explains your reasoning on this.

You liked the man, right?

Was he a good man. yes. A broken LBS'r. Went into depression when XW mom did this to him. He never recovered and never worked again. Drifted off into major health problems.

The girls didn't want to see their mom and OM. They didn't want to see anyone of her family because not one of them has reached out to them over these past 2 years.

We saw FIl a few months back in better days. That is what they want to remember him as. No need to see him bloated and strapped to machines.

We will visit his grave site once he is buried.



Sorry if this post is defensive but I think I might of not explained myself right in my last one.

Irish

[25yearsmlc]

yes Irish

it's a defensive post.

You are renting a lot of space to your ex wife.

Trying to "wake her up" with an insult (yes telling her to "get her head out of her ass" IS insulting.) And it is not going to help.

Irish, sometimes we bang our heads against the wall, and sometimes we don't.

Sometimes You really GAL and I'm impressed with your parenting. Really. I just don't think this was your finest hour and I don't want to see you spiral or hurt the few efforts your w makes.

I don't agree with your choice not to attend the FIL's funeral, but that's not my choice. I get that! We can agree to disagree.

Back to the email -
If your only responsibility is to send your w an email to comply with the court, nothing else you said after informing her of the trip was needed. So what if she says she does not want to hear from you? (You don't have to open her emails either. You have choices.)

Why is it okay for her to say hurtful things to you? It's not. I did not say it was. The dynamic between you in that email exchange was simply not a healthy one.

No you don't need to keep the road home to You paved/smooth. It's just a DB tenet my DB coach gave me. I assume it can be applied to the r's with the children and their parents. Why not do that?

My guess is that a belated mediocre relationship between them, is better than what exists now.

No, I do not think you can wake her up. Maybe time will.

As for You saying you "don't accept her plan" for a later r with the girls.... Look, I know this is hard to hear, but It's not yours to accept. It's not a triangle R anymore if it ever was.

It's a 2 way r between them and their mom. Believe me, I've struggled as the middleman in that dynamic and one upside to the divorce (and that's a hard thing to say) is that I don't need to anymore. H is on his own. I sure won't hinder any efforts he makes, if he does. And I do not bad mouth him. I also counter the kids' negatives about h with "he's still your dad and always will be." And when pressed I mention his work ethic and intelligence and a wealth of knowledge.

I don't have to add in that I confused those^^ traits with his having character.


As I said, you are renting her a lot of space...

[Sotto]

Hi Irish (((hugs))) to you....

Like Bttrfly posted, I'm writing this post with a soft tone to an online friend I admire

I think it would be a good idea to work on two areas in your communications with your XW:

Drop the emotion from your replies and aim purely for 'pleasant & businessy' (I think your responses to her still sound pretty reactive....which I understand & goodness knows how well I would cope if I had to be in contact with XH.)

Let go of the need to keep telling her that she is 'wrong.' She decided what she did and is where she is. I agree that it is up to her and your girls if they want to reconnect at some point and doesn't need for you to stand in the middle - only not stand in the way....

All JMHO of course and I too ache for your girls - and for your XW in fact. She has made choices that have led to great losses for her and I don't think she has the tools and resources to get her life back on a healthier track at this point.

As you know, me and XH don't have any contact. But if we did, I would try and operate/interact in a way that (if he died or killed himself tomorrow) I wouldn't regret my own interactions with him.

Take care Irish and I hope you relax and enjoy the weekend :)xx

[OwnIt]

Irish,

When I saw your post I felt similarly to 25. Reading your response to her and 25's to you has prevented me from taking an action I would have regretted in response to two awful things my H did to me today.

I too have been in this 7 years. My H has also spoken of a time in the future when he will have a utopian relationship with my children when I am not in the picture.

As much I want to hurt this man, and I do, I can't hurt my children. There is a poster on another board I follow who bravely confessed that her child has not spoken to her in 3 years because of how she handled her husband's infidelity and departure. Please understand that I am in no way accusing you of that and think you are an exemplary dad. But, it gets me thinking about my own behavior and what there is to gain from venting, responding, whatever you want to call it. Even if I am not doing anything to the children that would jeopardize his relationship with them, what if I am doing something to him that keeps him away from that relationship and in turn harms my children.

Regardless of whether she deserved it or not, she does not deserve your energy, your passion, your heartache, your supply, whatever one can call it. This woman is mentally ill. No sane mother would do as she has done. Men do this stuff every day. Women do not. Not in the same numbers.

I hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive her, to step out of the middle as 25 suggests, and to let her deal with the fallout from her own choices. There are too many proms, dates, weddings, graduations, breakups, celebrations, and disappointments that require your attention for your beautiful girls. Don't give that energy to her. If they are 30 when it happens, they will better be able to navigate their feelings and process the choices she made and did not make, and better positioned to evaluate the lives that you created for them instead.

[rd500]

Hi Irish, firstly im team irish all day long as is every other person ive ever seen posting on your thread.

I will go slightly further and saw i watch with awe in the way you cope bring up 2 girls who once knew a happy home. Im not saying for one second single parents home aren't happy , your girls had tremendous trauma when their mum left, i was in that postion but thankfully it was my dad and not my sainted mum.

Having made my position very clear ( i hope ) your message to EXW was attacking her and while part of me applauds you, part of me thinks you are still attached. In my sitch i answer every message very briefly and move on with my day. Am i tempted to let her have both barrells from time to time , of course but heres a secret between me and you. How much more does it hurt her that i wont engage, my belief is lots. So passive aggressive maybe but i still dont give it a thought once message is gone.

Your EXW is the victim ( in her mind ) and nothing will shift her mindset until she ( if ever ) accepts otherwise.

So , please accept this post in the manner its intended, EXW doesnt deserve to be in your Ds lives right now. Certainly not in the mindset she is in.

Irish is one of the strongest members ( imho ) on this board ( i would have to include Sotto ), you never moan or feel sorry for yourself even though it must happen that you feel tbat way sometimes. Dont get caught up in her mindset, 25 has his theorys about her thoughts and feelings and i would agree. Unless shes a psycho these thoughts must cross her mind occasionally.

You lead by way of your posts, you show alot of humility and caring so it understandable that sometimes you react.

Again Irish , just my humble opinion but from your view point its hard to see the wood from the trees.

How things with the GF ???

Take care brother, go team irish !!!!!!!!

[bttrfly]

Hi Irish,
so you got your Irish up with eew ... who can blame you? God knows the MLCr would try the patience of a saint.

I cannot point fingers -- anyone remember my reaction to finding out I was expected to pay half of exh's secret vacation to Hawaii, taken on our 21st anniversary? I acutely remember another time when I went absolutely ballistic on exh, around that same time frame. Truth darts are not pretty and in my case the darts flew fast, furious and hit with deadly accuracy. I remember darling Lou being aghast and asking me why I wasn't taking Job's good advice - well, in that case Job's advice was posted after exh and my conversation, and after months of not sleeping and stress I just snapped. I'm not proud of it, but at the same time even the tiniest kitten has claws. An Italian woman pushed to the brink isn't a pretty sight.

My point is, patience can only carry us so far. Some days it's just too bad for them if they end up hearing something they don't like from us LBS. You cannot keep poking the bear with a stick and not expect to get whacked with it every so often.

I know the girls were in counseling. Are they still? Can you have a conversation with a medical professional about their DNA concerns? Maybe there's someone who can talk with them and assure them? If it is a hormonal issue, as long as they are monitored they can get through it just fine. Modern medicine is an amazing thing. Yes, that's your herbal friend talking, and I believe it too.

I thought of something else re: the girls - this is an opportunity to teach them a really invaluable lesson, that of the importance of self-care. Self-care means that even if you have kids, a husband and a career, you take the time to make sure you are rested, well fed, have exercise, things that nourish your soul too, and most especially you make sure you have regular doctor visits and mind your health so you can be available to live your life and care for your loved ones. Maybe that will help them feel more in control?

I can't imagine what those sweet children are going through, and I especially know that it must be torture for you not to be able to fix this for them, calm their fears, help them feel safe again. As bad as it is for us, the worst is that we cannot protect our children from this.

And you are at this 24x7, you don't get a break - not that you want one - but still, you have had your own grief to deal with as the LBS, and on top of it, having to be strong for the girls. At least I get a reprieve from having to put on the happy face - when son is with exh I can scream, cry, rant, rave or just be the wife he left behind rather than having to put that aside to be the strong mother taking care of her son and pets, trying to keep it together so it doesn't affect son's relationship with exh unduly.

I get that your Irish temper kicked in and you'd just had enough of the BS. You have a right to your opinion and you have a right to share it with eew. Hey - just because someone says they're doing the best they can doesn't necessarily mean it's a good job. As 25 says, yes, the girls and eew's relationship is between them. But I also see what you're saying, that you can have an opinion of her parenting and you let her know what that was. Was it diplomatic? No. Was it "DB" ? No. But let's face it, at this point, you've said you're done and I get it.

As for going to the services. I truly feel that's the girls call, and given their reasoning, it makes sense. Heck my son didn't go to auntie's memorial service. I was upset, but he told me why and how he felt about it and I understood his perspective and accepted it. His perspective is that services are for those left behind. He did not know the people who were going to be there, hadn't seen them since he was 9 or 10. He wanted to remember her in his own way. Did I agree? No. Did I accept? Yes.

Anyway, it's done, and that's that. You've said your piece, she now knows how you feel about her life choices vis a vis her relationship with the girls. I think the most constructive thing you can do now is shrug off the residual ickiness we all feel after encounters of this kind and re-focus on your GAL and how best to help the girls cope. I know you're doing just that. sending hugs {{{{{{Irish}}}}}}} Let's not forget that you too were hurt by this, not just as a parent but also as a partner who was left. xoxoxo take care of yourself here also Irish. Don't let yourself and your own pain get pushed aside to take care of the girls. You have a lot to hold, my friend. xoxoxo

[peacetoday]

Hi

I have found that most of my reactions toward XH or anyone/anything else are usually from some unresolved issues in me:

fear
abandonment
grief and loss
unresolved childhood issues and anger
self esteem issues
refusing to accept something as it is

so reaction isn't a bad thing, its a lesson for me-a signal usually that Im not accepting something and I can sometimes have this come up a bit-

Usually after I react, if I can settle down and look within to see if something in me needs to be worked through, I can gain insight and make changes

I can make apologies if needed or be aware of future interactions, so I can change my reactions
awareness is key- reacting with integrity is important to me

current issues and problems in my life need to be worked thru to get to acceptance
and denial to acceptance is a long sometimes very bumpy road

I fight, cry and rage and finally let go(maybe)

sometimes I have to do the process many times over several years-depending on the issue to really get to Acceptance

Acceptance is a place where I no longer fight or fear the issue,
I embrace it, I trust it is for the best..I trust God and the process of life-I truly let go of any control


Accepting Life, people and places exactly as they are-

sometimes for me, it requires time journaling, therapy ,reading, talking, tears-
not easy, but for me it works because when I get to the other side I see things different
and the more I can change my perception to see the good even in what seems Bad-Im making progress-Its Gods world not mine


If I skip through, I will not really get there. and the unresolved issue with all its pain will appear again and again

This is my process..Im not sure any of this applies for you, but please take any information that may be helpful and leave the rest

the best,
Peace

[Wonka]

Hi Irish,

I hope today is a bit better for you and the girls.

After reading of the latest developments in your sitch, I had this strong, compelling pull to post to you after reading your comments.

I have to message you by law to advise you that I am out of the country with them . you have 2 options.

1- block my emails or send them to spam. I don't care. I just need proof i sent them, no proof needed that you read them. You can't prevent me from going or them. It is only to advise you.

2- Simply reply thanks.

I don't accept your plan of waiting until they are 30 and maybe by then they will reach out. The girls deserve more from you. They won't accept anything less. Have a good day

Get your head out of your a$$ and start being the mom you once were. Not for me but for them.

Ouch.

I see a man who is still very deeply wounded by your XW's choices. Very much so. You lash out. You try to put her in her place by throwing both subtle and not so subtle digs her way as a reminder to her that she's a worthless human being.

Helpful? Absolutely not.

I have seen your growth here since finding you as a newly minted newbie over in the Newcomers forum and sending you to the MLC forum. You are a person who is compassionate and exhibits a strong sense of humility. That is who you really are at the core....you've lost your center. It's time to get back to that center...that silent and strong Irish.

Your XW is a very lost person. A lost soul who is really hurting too. She's recently lost her father and had to bury him. Wow. That's a lot to take on in addition to carrying the deep seated guilt of abandoning the girls.

Let me tell you a story here in the hopes you will shift your thinking, attitude, and approach to your XW.

I recently lost my stepmother after a long health battle over the summer and she recently went Home in June. This journey has given me some incredible insights after reflecting on the choices she and my family made many, many decades ago which still reverberates to this day. If anything, I've learned some really valuable lessons on forgiveness throughout this really rough journey.

I am now 50 years old. Finally, I understand in a very deep and meaningful way the true meaning of forgiveness. It took me to losing my parents and Ms. Wonka to be a walking reflection of forgiveness.

Here's the story...it's a long one. Don't say that I didn't warn ya, my friend.

[Wonka]

the voice of Sophia Picture this....

It was 1978...on a Christmas morning. I came bouncing down the stairs in my grandparents' house to the living room and see my mother (stepmother) looking morose in her Lazy-A-Boy chair. I asked her what was the matter and she swiveled in her chair to face me, "Wonka, we are getting a divorce."

My entire safe, little world crumbled at that very precise moment. (and that's what brought up my MLC to the surface years and years on....it's all in my MLC threads)

Oh and wait...there's more.

My grandfather, her father, was VERY angry at the pain my father caused his own daughter with his stupid infidelity. Being the old school Marine that he was, my grandfather forbidden her from having any contact with my father or she would be disowned by the family. One day, my uncle (her baby brother who was away at college) somehow found out that she and my father were in contact. My uncle went over to my father's house and left a nasty note under the door (I've never seen the contents of the note). Guess what happened? Yup. My father retaliated by not allowing me to see my mother (and by extension her family as well).

I was 11 years old. I had no voice in this at all. I was a mere child. I met them all when I was 18 months old and they married when I was 3. Talk about a deep wound that's never truly healed.

There was zero contact with my mother for years. Until one day I got into a very ugly fight with my father. I lost it and called my mother. She came right over the house and we sat on the couch in the living room looking at each other with wonder. Then we looked up as my father had come home and he was sooo stunned that he stopped cold in his tracks when he saw the two of us sitting together. I was aged 15 at the time.

Slowly and surely my parents found a way back together. No, no...don't bust out the champagne. I am sorry to say, it wasn't a fairytale reconciliation. It was all deep underground and no one knew. Except me. I was the only one who knew and they kept separate homes. Still not reunited with my mother's family. Over the years, I heard about the births of my cousins and their growing up years. Also heard about my grandparents'travels and other family stories that I was not part of at all despite being their first and eldest granddaughter.

Then my grandfather died. I didn't go to his funeral. Instead they had a funeral arrangement of fishing pole flowers/pot(his passion) with the granddaughters' names...mine was included.

My mother lived a life full of fear. Fear of being found out about their underground relationship and of being disowned by her family. What a charmed life, right?

Not long after Ms. Wonka left me, I told my mother that I wanted to see my grandmother. Oh boy!!! I saw raw, primal fear creep into my mother's eyes. That fear was that of Mama Bear's protective instincts and she absolutely did not want to see me get hurt at all. By that time, I was a grown woman and I wanted very much to see my grandmother who I absolutely adored (and still do). I calmly and quietly said, "Mom, it is not your call. I want to see her."

I saw my grandmother for the first time in years and YEARS. I was over 37 years old. THIRTY SEVEN! The last time I saw her was aged 11. Whew. Yep. Can you imagine?

There's more....told ya, it's a whopper of a story!

[Wonka]

Then imagine having to meet with the cousins that my uncle had with his marriage to his college sweetheart. Get this. They NEVER knew I existed at all. Because my name was practically erased from their lives. Imagine when I came back into my grandmother's life. Of course, my uncle had to sit down with his daughters and tell them about their older cousin.

Talk about a real mind f*ck! Yep. I have this very clear-eyed recall of the very first day we all met for the first time. I was a curiosity to them. Like the Easter Bunny had taken on a body of flesh. Then over the next few years, I saw resentment take a hold in their souls. Even to this day, I do see flashes of resentment at family gatherings. It is their hoe to take care of...not my fault that there was such a dramatic fallout all those years ago that had long-term consequences.

And my parents? They didn't make it to the end. How could they with that dark, familial cloud hanging over them??!!

When my mother died, I saw a change in my uncle. I saw a deep understanding in my uncle's eyes and I also saw regret in those eyes too. We've never spoken about all of those events that took place...too painful.

When the family priest came over the house to plan for the service(I wasn't there for I might have been at work), he asked my family, "Was she (mother) ever happy?" Know what my uncle told him in front of my grandmother and my aunts, "Yeah, she was at her happiest when she was married to Bob."(names not real) That's absolutely true. My mother never remarried nor ever dated anyone.

My mother lived with fear ever since my parents' divorced. She was so deeply wounded that she completely shut down and did not let anyone in...even me or her family. She was very remote and unreachable. Over the years, she took on a self-protective mechanism.

The real tragedy? Her heart became so hardened that she really didn't have much compassion for others. She became a very negative person whose energy pulled down people.

Don't become that bitter person, Irish.

Stop judging your XW. She is a very lost soul. Don't rob your daughters of their mother. It is NOT up to you to decide this or that for your daughters. I get that you are very protective of your girls.

BUT....

Don't take any actions, words, or deeds that are damaging toward their mother either.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What are you doing to do from THIS moment and on, Irish?

What kind of man do you want to be, Irish?

What kind of lessons do you want to pass on to your girls, Irish?

What kind of example do you want to set for yourself and the girls, Irish?

[Wonka]

All of that....^^^^^...was all because of this:

adults doing really stupid stuff!!!

[mirage]

Irish,

I understand the analysis(constructive criticism) done by other posters in this forum of the handling of your EXW. I think we all mean well here, especially here! This is your life, in my book you have earned the right to say certain things. I did not see you being mean, I saw you being a human being. None of us completely extinguishes the ghost from our lives. We do the best we can.

I'm not perfect with the handling of my EXW. None of us are. I still throw a truth dart out now and then expecially if I am in a fiesty mood. Fiestyness makes me feel alive as this is a journey to be lived and not on the sidelines.

We, who can stand on our own two feet, be responsible for who we are and be right with ourselves is an incredible journey in and of itself.

Your total body of work with your girls, your life and the hand you were dealt is truly commendable.

Keep living the journey.

Mirage

[Brubeck]

Irish,

I totally understand the slip you made toward XW. You are human. You have carried through an enormous amount of pain throughout this sitch, and you've dealt with a rare version of MLC - the mother who totally abandons her children.

Her mind is a true mess. If she started to wake up today, it would still take a long time for her to walk back from where she is stuck. I don't know that she will. You've chronicled all her texts - watching blame & entitlement lurking underneath the surface most of the time.

I'm not accusing you of trying to hurt her with your text. If you did mean to hurt her - consciously or sub-consciously - you were responding to her nastiness, which you can only dodge so much.

You know that phase the LBS goes through where you reach out to people for help in the hopes that everyone tells you your not crazy? Eventually you grow out of it, and you realize it's their problem.

It's still her problem. The insanity that is the MLCer's endless martyrdom is something she's truly believes. It is every day normal for her, and she has to pursue a life that adheres to that story to keep her mind away from the brutal truth of what she's done with her own life.

Remember, you don't see her anymore - but her life is probably a gigantic mess that she has to keep pretending makes total sense.

Yeah, you blew your top. I understand. Step back and learn. I understand you being tired of playing by her rules, especially when her rules don't make sense because they're changing all the time.

The LBS walks away different, but we eventually become whole again. We know what is missing within us and we are taking steps to get there again. You're just not whole again yet, Irish - that's all - but you're freaking dating! Woo hoo!

She has yet to admit there is something missing inside her in the first place.

As for the funeral stuff, after everything your D's have said about XW, I wouldn't try to drag 2 teenage girls to a funeral proceeding if they don't want to. While it feels admirable to give this advice to someone else, the idea that to prove "we are the bigger people and we'll put this aside for the time being" is easier said than done. They don't want to see her.

The nuttiest part about XW's spew is the whole "wait til they're 30" junk. There's no expiration date on pain - you'd think XW would know this.

Bad choice of words, yes, but you're probably right - her head is up her a$$.

[job]

Irish,

You are human and yes, you've had it about up to your neck w/your xw's comments and behavior, Sure, you stated what was exactly on your mind and guess what....it went right over her head. You can state how you feel all day long until the cows come home, but until she's at a place whereby she will action be rational and can actually hear what you are saying, you are speaking to someone who is deaf to all that is around her...except herself and what she wants. Again, I do understand how you feel and you've been so patient throughout all of this.

As for that comments about waiting until the girls are 30, she is as nutty as a fruit cake. She's just lashing out and saying whatever comes to mind. She is no where near acknowledging what she's done or facing the consequences of her actions. It's still all about her, her feelings and what she wants. She's still very selfish and until she starts to grow up, she'll remain that way. Remember...you can't rationalize w/an irrational person. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. They need to hit bottom very, very hard and then they have to decide whether to stay there or want to rise to the top and live life to the fullest.

Irish, keep your focus on you and your girls. I know that you know that you can't help their mother...but you can be there to help your girls as they grow up into beautiful young ladies. Please come here to vent and let that anger out. Venting to your xw isn't going to wake her up and she turns a deaf ear to all you have to say.

Hang in there! We are here for you.

[Irish M]

Hi Everyone.
Wow I didn't expect such a response. Only one I didn't hear from was by buddy Cali.

I just want to say thank you and all your responses make sense. I'll try to be brief in my reply. Here it goes..

25Yr, I'm sorry it seemed like my XW takes up alot of space in my head. She actually doesn't. Little pockets here and there but that is mostly related to the girls. This father can't turn a blind eye to their hurt.

As for the funeral. It is in the past now. I don't regret not going and I know the girls are glad they avoided that circus. Sorry to put it that way but that family has given us 0 support and no contact from any of them. Xfil was the only one. I reached out to him. His ashes will be buried this weekend. We will visit the site in a few weeks.

Sotto.
I hear you loud and clear even with your soft tone. I said what I said to XW and I have zero regrets. I needed to get it off my chest and it feels great. I move forward :-)
If XW takes it bad, nothing I can do. It's the truth. Hopefully one day it will register and she does something about it.

All JMHO of course and I too ache for your girls - and for your XW in fact. She has made choices that have led to great losses for her and I don't think she has the tools and resources to get her life back on a healthier track at this point.

I agree. long way off and I doubt she has those tools in her back pocket. It's tragic for everyone. How xMIL can not see the damage she caused and her daughter repeating it.. it`s just horrible parenting. She actually said to me. "Let XW go through this , I did and turned out just fine" .. crazy talk and no you didn't turn out just fine.

Hi Ownit

Sorry if it comes across as me in the middle. No where have I told the girls don't go.
I supported their choice. There was no way i would force them into going to see her family after 2 yrs of nothing. Not even a card at Xmas. We were cut off. XW sister is the god mother of D17. Nada from her since August 2015

What I do is love my girls. Educate them with books and specialist when needed. Talk about it openly. Never disrespecting their mom. Often i say "girls she's not well, she doesn't see the hurt she has caused." They reply. Dad, enough of the not well mother. She is gone and I want nothing to do with her. But I do see they have an opening for her. They do know she is not well. With that I have hope if XW does the work, that road is paved. I won't force it upon them. I will however be there for them and support their choices.

Regardless of whether she deserved it or not, she does not deserve your energy, your passion, your heartache, your supply, whatever one can call it. This woman is mentally ill. No sane mother would do as she has done. Men do this stuff every day. Women do not. Not in the same numbers.

No she doesn`t deserve my energy. Nor does she deserve my pity at this point. If I slip it`s because Irish needs it. I move on very fast after and I don`t dwell on what i say or do. What she does with it is up to her.


Hi Rd

I cant put the right words to text after reading your post RD. really touched.
Thank you so much for your support. Now to dry my eyes.

Having made my position very clear ( i hope ) your message to EXW was attacking her and while part of me applauds you, part of me thinks you are still attached. In my sitch i answer every message very briefly and move on with my day. Am i tempted to let her have both barrells from time to time , of course but heres a secret between me and you. How much more does it hurt her that i wont engage, my belief is lots. So passive aggressive maybe but i still dont give it a thought once message is gone.
Your EXW is the victim ( in her mind ) and nothing will shift her mindset until she ( if ever ) accepts otherwise.

Yes, i agree. no reply and move on. But it felt good and I`m done with it. Will I ever say something similar again. Depends. Will I go on and on with her and like you so well put it let her have both barrels. No. Its not needed and it will do no one any good. No nothing will shift her mindset and It wasn`t my goal. I`m just tired of being so nice to her.

How things with the GF ???

Things are going good. Slow but good. There is no other way to do this. The girls choose when they want to tag along and when they don`t. This weekend we are doing a nice trip to the states. All 5 of us.

I do focus on the girls and give them as much time with me alone as they need. I think I found the right balance. My Gf does find it hard sometimes but when she sees the results we have compared to blended families that were forced into it.. she is so happy we are doing it this way.

Hi Bttrfly

yes , I got my Irish character out. It`s rare i would say something like that to anyone. It just fit the moment.

I know the girls were in counseling. Are they still? Can you have a conversation with a medical professional about their DNA concerns? Maybe there's someone who can talk with them and assure them? If it is a hormonal issue, as long as they are monitored they can get through it just fine. Modern medicine is an amazing thing. Yes, that's your herbal friend talking, and I believe it too.

Yes and no. It is a on need basis. Also they are reading still on crisis kids, communication, loving oneself. Huge support from my family. I try to have them do volunteer work twice a year.
They do talk to me and very openly about all that life throws at them. Yes, even boys. Sometimes they are out back with their girlfriends. they ask me to join them and all the kids open up. Its nice to see the support group they have, also to include me, I guess the fire pit and smores has a lot to do with it.

it must be torture for you not to be able to fix this for them, calm their fears, help them feel safe again.

Hardest part of this is just that.


Hi Peace

thanks for this peace

Accepting Life, people and places exactly as they are-

sometimes for me, it requires time journaling, therapy ,reading, talking, tears-
not easy, but for me it works because when I get to the other side I see things different
and the more I can change my perception to see the good even in what seems Bad-Im making progress-Its Gods world not mine

I am the same. It needs to be processed and not rushed through. I do have bubbles of anger but as time goes on he y are short lived. XW, she will have her own demons to manage when the time is right. i won`t be watching. Each day, week, month and year brings me closer to peace within my self.

again, i may slip but I don`t fall.

Hi Wonka

your story and the depth you go into it is heartbreaking. You calling your mother after a fight with your dad. I expect that often from my girls. I can be fun dad but i do have rules. Rules they need to respect. As I respect their own rules they might put onto me one day. Some days with D15, simple things like me taking away her cell phone so she can get a good night sleep or study. She hates it. Says i treat her like a baby No freedom. Her grades slip and she loses it for a week. I sometimes think this is it. She will Call mom. They never do. And they have access to her. Work cell, home phone address, Facebook, Instagram, email. So many ways. It`s not that I tell them don`t , they chose not to. They know Xw is not herself and not well. I truly believe XW avoids them to protect them. XW moved out of OM house. They are still together as couple. The girls don`t want any part of that life.

What are you going to do from THIS moment and on, Irish?

What kind of man do you want to be, Irish?

What kind of lessons do you want to pass on to your girls, Irish?

What kind of example do you want to set for yourself and the girls, Irish?

My answers are bundled up in this paragraph.
I am going to continue to be the dad i was since the day they were born. To love them, respect them, to help them grow into loving, caring adults. I will be the strength that they feed on to make it through all this. I will show XW compassion if she uses the tools to get back to the girls lives. I understand MLC. She didn't choose this. Like someone with Parkinson or bipolar. If ever she asks me for help. I will help. If the girls ask me to help, I will help. Lessons, I hope they learn patience and strength. That life throws you rocks, you just need to slow down, see where they fall and walk around them. No need to run towards them, you get hit.

i hope that answers your questions . And thank you for all you have done for me here. You are a big part of why I am where I am in this MLC/LBS world.


Hi Mirage

I'm not perfect with the handling of my EXW. None of us are. I still throw a truth dart out now and then expecially if I am in a fiesty mood. Fiestyness makes me feel alive as this is a journey to be lived and not on the sidelines.

It felt good and I am past it. Whats funny is I never used that expression before in my life. It just seemed like the right thing to say on her no movement in connecting with the girls.

Hi Brubeck

Yeah, you blew your top. I understand. Step back and learn. I understand you being tired of playing by her rules, especially when her rules don't make sense because they're changing all the time.

Funny you say that. They change ever so much. One end of the spectrum to another. And if we did come to a place where we all talked. Her story will change or she will deny all that she said. Shes far off still.

As for the funeral stuff, after everything your D's have said about XW, I wouldn't try to drag 2 teenage girls to a funeral proceeding if they don't want to. While it feels admirable to give this advice to someone else, the idea that to prove "we are the bigger people and we'll put this aside for the time being" is easier said than done. They don't want to see her.

If it was just not seeing her I could arrange a private moment before the service. But it was the entire family. Zero connection. I personally only met his brothers twice. That whole side. MIL and FIL, we had no connection to them. They are a lost family.

My side however. I can`t keep them away. lol Aunts, uncles, brothers. Love them all by the way and they all know my girls.


Hi Job

great hearing from you. I know how busy you are here.

As for that comments about waiting until the girls are 30, she is as nutty as a fruit cake. She's just lashing out and saying whatever comes to mind. She is no where near acknowledging what she's done or facing the consequences of her actions. It's still all about her, her feelings and what she wants. She's still very selfish and until she starts to grow up, she'll remain that way. Remember...you can't rationalize w/an irrational person. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. They need to hit bottom very, very hard and then they have to decide whether to stay there or want to rise to the top and live life to the fullest.

irrational crazy. yup. But I am at a point where i don`t need to PG-13 my texts . I won`t go off on her but if i hear something that is just plain nuts, more than before.. i might reply my thoughts in a simple one line comment. That waiting until 30 ... was way too much. D15 was 12 when this happened. So 18 years is her schedule to reconnect. my god. lol

thanks gain for your support.

[CaliGuy]

HAhaha ... you rang?

I actually read through all this over the past couple days but was trying to think "What would Cali do" and I am not so sure I would have done anything different, nor have any feelings than what you have expressed.

First off I personally think you have handled this entire sitch with dignity and class, and continue to do so. I am and always will be a fan of a good ol truth dart, and there is no other way to deliver it than direct and to the point.

My take on all this ... I have said it a few times here and there and the further from BD and all the emotions I once felt I get and the closer to indifference, the lessons I have learned and all the things I have taken from this I firmly believe men and women handle this thing vastly differently, we heal much differently, us guys are in the minority when it comes to this MLC thing so we do go about things a bit differently that may raise an eyebrow or two.

I respect everyone on this board but did not find myself agreeing with the majority, I was more of the ... 'If it stings .. tough' Camp. Not everything has to be sugar coated, it is not your job to feed into her fantasy .. a reality check when required I think is good .. I know I have had similar instances, its not bitter nor holding onto pain its simply a point where enough is enough and I would have said such things to anyone regardless of MLC or not very much like placing a boundary in my opinion.

I, like you, have treated this whole thing similar to a disease, I am very careful to what I personally expose my son to as it would be very easy to spill beans and tell him all, but I protect her from that as I do not want my son resenting his mother for the crisis that took her and destroyed a family .... enough damage has been done so I do provide a bit of a shield there as I see you doing with your girls, a thankless job but long term better for the kids. The danger of this is that resentment bucket can fill up so one must pour that sludge out from time to time which I think you have done.

Personally I am not so sure .. I think partly they had no chance but they did make poor choices and decisions that can not be undone ... who knows if or when they ever exit from the crisis and what will happen thereafter.

[bttrfly]

^^^ great stuff Cali!

[Gordie]

Wow, nice post Cali. I too was feeling Irish did nothing wrong but I couldn't articulate why. This nails it. In fact, I have only let these truth darts fly in rare moments of exasperation and I have never regretted them.

[roist]

This isn't about right and wrong. That implies judgement and superiorityboth of which could probably be justified but remain negative traits. That isn't who I see Irish as being.

Secondly there are no rules in this process. There are things that help and guidelines. Plus each situation is different and hence what is "right" in a given instance for one dber may not be good for another

So to give my view of the interaction. It was an unprovoked attack surely due to a build up of resentment or even anger. I think you need to examinet that build up. It won't serve you well. Are you taking steps to help you stay balanced? You are doing so well that maybe that is being neglected due to feeling better.

Being an unprovoked attack may just feel like an attack to W. But you only stated your view of the truth. You are entitled to have that view and to express it. Like Cali, I believe that an occasional truth dart is beneficial.TiTiming and delivery however are important.

I also believe that once separation occurs the lbs needs to arrive at a point where he/she doesn't consider how their actions affect WAS.It is good that you are there, but be careful how you proceed.

Irish, in your situation you don't need to interact at all with exW.So don't.Let her be. Send the obligatory emails but don't initiate any other contact. Let her stew in your words (if she even heard the message!!!).

Hope you, gf and the girls have a great time away.

Best wishes

[Irish M]

Hi everyone.
Cali, Bttrfly, Gordie and Roist. I really truly appreciate your views and support. Read them all over and over again. It is why i was away for a while. I needed to digest some views and and process the events.

With that said.

Day to day live is great. keeping busy with life. Juggling the role of Dad, boyfriend, boss ( at work ) and also my time.

Girls are doing great. we dusted ourselves off from EX's dads funeral and her outbursts. We feel no guilt not attending and will pay visit to the burial site when ever we can.

latest XW adventure is .

She tracked down D17's instagram. Messaged her

Call me. tonight!!!

D17 was puzzled. didn't reply and simply blocked.

minutes later I receive a text

Tell MY girls to call me tonight. I need to hear their voices.

I reply: Just like that? What's the urgency

I just want to talk to them NOW. and if you don't force them I will be at D17 ceremony this weekend.

I will back up a little. D17 graduated high school this past summer. They had their prom and grad march. But the official ceremony is only in October since the final exams aren't finalized. So If you really graduate this is the event. In October because summer holidays and the start of college doesn't give a good window to have this.

I purchased 5 ticket. One for D15, 2 for my parents, one for me and one for my GF ( d17 wants her there)

I never received the tickets. I called the school last week and asked them where they were shipped via mail. Well XW address pops up. they apologize and prepare me 5 new tickets to pick up. I do.

I message XW. did you receive anything for D17 grad. She replies yes, but i sent them back. This was last week.

now back to yesterday

I'm sorry threats won't ever make me force the girls to call you. If you show up at the grad, it will only put a huge amount of stress on D17 and D15. I don;t think its a good place to try to connect with them especially after MIA 2 years.

she replies : Then I will see U at the grad. Good night.

Nothing much I can do. If she still has the tickets then she is free to go. She causes no real danger to the girls from what I can tell. It will sadly just create drama and more tension between her and the girls.

D17 says she will punch her in the face if she approaches her. D15 says she will do the same but to OM.

now I personally don;t think she will show. She avoids and is d@mn good at it. She probably had a moment of loss. Her text seemed like she was drunk.

I wish her well but I won't change my views of not forcing the girls. They don't need the madness. They need a mom.

[SBJ]

It sounds like you're doing good brother. I hope and pray that you and your girls are able to stay strong. I also hope that our prodigals will one day see the light and make right the things that they screwed up.

Sounds like it is time for some topless Jeep therapy time. I know it's suppose to be sunny and low 70's here for me this weekend...time to be topless for sure.

[bttrfly]

Hey buddy! missed ya.
Breaks my heart that eew always threatens to show up like the bad fairy at every special event for the Ds ..

This is no way to undo the damage, as well you know - as any sane person knows.

I would make sure that the school is more on top of things for D15s sake so you don't have to go through this kind of crap again.

Eew has no custody rights, correct? Has the school seen a copy of the divorce / custody papers? They should all be aware of this and make sure they don't create another clusterF

otherwise, just keep being your awesome self! xoxoxo

[roist]

Best wishes for the your daughters big ceremony and night

[peacetoday]

Maybe its a moment of despair for her : with her threats

maybe she is drunk as you mentioned

Sorry your girls have to be put through this

But they do seem content to let their mom go for now-

and its nice your D wanted your new GF to be included on her special day

You may hear from XW on and off for some time to come and unfortunately there is no easy answer

either XW will step up to the plate and realize the truth and what she has created or she will continue on this way many years and perhaps get worse into addiction
nothing you can do except what you are doing and moving forward with your life letting her deal with her choices

[Sotto]

Hi Irish, I'm sorry that you are having to deal with these difficult contacts from your XW. She really is flip flopping all over the place - to go from 'I'm not going to see them until they are 30' to 'I need them to call me tonight' all in the space of a couple of weeks. She clearly isn't in a great place.

It must be tough for your girls to have the shadow of this happening when nice events are due to take place. I'm sure the event will still be lovely and it is nice that your GF will be there in support too. Your girls are lucky to have one stable parent (which makes a huge difference) and a supportive girlfriend in the mix too.

I hope the graduation goes well and that you all enjoy celebrating your daughter's achievement.

Xx

[Irish M]

Sounds like it is time for some topless Jeep therapy time.

Great advice SBJ :-)
sadly its a weekend of rain. I put the hard top on 2 weeks ago or so. But I have the freedom top where the front seat panels come off. So with warmer temps next week.. your prescription will be filled.

This is no way to undo the damage, as well you know - as any sane person knows.

Yes, it's not what I would envision as a pleasant first time meet up. D17 is already a little nervous. This threat isn't helping.

Eew has no custody rights, correct? Has the school seen a copy of the divorce / custody papers? They should all be aware of this and make sure they don't create another clusterF

xx buttrfly, Yes the school knows everything. They have told her on numerous occasions to stay away from the school. Her erratic behavior. the principle and teachers picked up on it right away. But legally she has the right to attend since she is not deemed violent or any danger towards D15 and D17.

Best wishes for the your daughters big ceremony and night

thanks Roist

either XW will step up to the plate and realize the truth and what she has created or she will continue on this way many years and perhaps get worse into addiction
nothing you can do except what you are doing and moving forward with your life letting her deal with her choices

Hi Peace xx, yes I truly hope that she will step up to the plate one day. If this will happen one day, I will be a happy man.

If she ends up deeper in a dark place. I think god the girls don't have to witness it and I wish her the best.

It must be tough for your girls to have the shadow of this happening when nice events are due to take place. I'm sure the event will still be lovely and it is nice that your GF will be there in support too. Your girls are lucky to have one stable parent (which makes a huge difference) and a supportive girlfriend in the mix too.

Yes it was a tough day yesterday and Friday night.
thanks for your support Sotto xx


So yesterday morning D17 comes to me and says she doesn't want to go. I tell her that she can't let her mother control her this way that she must live and do things for her and not worry about her mother.

In my gut the threat of my XW coming was a dead threat. Wouldn't happen. My XW avoids and is good at it. She will spew but no action. Typical here with these MLC. So the morning goes on and I can tell D17 is nervous. D15 not as much. She is venting anger towards her mom. Saying if she shows up with OM I will punch them both in the face. Now I know anger is love. If there was no love then the anger emotion would not show its face. I hugged D15 and told her that even if her mom was to show up she is to just be calm and enjoy the day for D17. no drama.

D17 gets ready. Its the ceremony. They wear gowns. Nothing is showing but the shoes. No need to wear a fancy dress because it is covered. There is no prom as it was in June. So D17 wears her comfortable jeans and t shirt. Does her hair and makeup and we go.

Outside the school the kids are going in first to get ready and the parents line up to go in 40 mins after. all the kids were dressed as if it was a photo shoot and red carpet deal. I tell D17 if she wants to go home and change she can,We still have time. She says no dad. I am good how I am. I'm going in. So she walks in with her head high amounts the fashion divas and GQ guys. I was so proud of her for doing that. She is strong

the ceremony went great. No signs of Xw and to be honest I was sitting in the 2nd row and never once looked back to scout the place. If she was there she was there. I wouldn't of known it.
Seeing my D17 get her diploma I did shed a tear. We exchanged smiles and were both at peace enjoying the moment.

and you know what. No one knew she was under-dressed for the occasion. She was comfortable and herself. They all looked the same.

And avout XW. My mom always told me. Never worry about something before it happens. It is a waist of energy because we always worry the worst and it never happens the way we think it will.

hope you all have a great day.. sunshine for the next 7 days. Warmer temps and open jeep top in the forecast :-)

[job]

I am so glad everything turned out okay for the graduation ceremony. Congratulations to your daughter!

I had a very strong feeling that your xw wouldn't show up. Why? Because they tend to do stuff like this all of the time because they want people to remember that they are out there. In many cases, they tend to pop out around special events and do and say things that put a damper on the event. I honestly don't think they can help themselves because they are so miserable that they want others to be that way too. They can't see beyond the tip of their noses how to get themselves out of their own way. I'm not making excuses for them, but it appears that she's a very miserable and lonely woman who can't or won't get help.

You and your girls are living your lives and that's what is very important. Enjoy the time you spend with your girls because those memories can't be played back at a future date, except in photos.

[bttrfly]

yay!!!!!xoxoxo congrats to D17 and your family xoxoxo
love your mom's advice ... i will remember it!!!

[peacetoday]

yes your mother had great advice!

enjoy the warmth!

[CaliGuy]

Great to hear it all went smoothly ... I can only echo what job shared and we are entering into the time of year the MLCrs do tend to all act up at once... in my house I simply say in my head GOT style "Winter is comin" .... mine too is pokin a pinkie toe out and feeling the waters lucky for me I have the hideous Holiday sweater out that says 'Been there Done that'.

Congrats Irish, Must be something else seeing your 2 Ds bond and experience such life events together and know they have each others back. Hopefully one day their mother will emerge and be there in the later years .... for now they have each other and a very strong father figure to lean on ... kudos man.

[OwnIt]

So odd that she is menacing in these threats to come to the big events. Mine acts like a scared little chicken about seeing the kids--so fearful of their rejection of him.

It is a testament to you that your D17 knows herself and what she wants and doesn't feel the need to give into the peer pressure from others.

[HaWho]

So glad it all went well, Irish. You all deserved to savor the day in peace.

Keep rollin' on, you tank!

[Irish M]

Hi Job, thanks for the well wishes for my D17.
and I've read your words on my post and many others. Always words of wisdom.

Bttrfly and Peace, My mom has many saying. Her most prominent one is Irish, you are a pain in the neck.

I tend to keep her on her feet.

Cali, if you can send me one of those sweaters. I feel the same with her threats and tactics. Been there , done that.


OwnIt. yes its odd but she never goes through with it. Maybe its a mix of empty threat or right before she chickens out. who knows. All i know is she never one followed through.

Thanks HaWho.. I keep my talk full so no stopping this tank. It just keep moving.


Job, if you can close this thread. latest XW messages will follow on the next one.

Next thread: Contact from the dark side