M51 XW43 (38 at bd) BD1 MAY 30 2015 BD2 JUNE 25 2015 by text moved out Aug 2 2015 left both Daughters 13 and 15 (now 18-20) Her divorce Final July 26 2016 Last time she saw her kids Aug 2 2015
I left off with the question of forgiveness. We all struggle with this or chose to not go there. No need for it or still holding on to anger and will never give it... even if it will give us peace. Or just being indifferent to it all as we can't control it or help it, so we move on.
Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
Indifference is absolutely the place to be in all this ... I have found its where peace lives.
I agree with you Cali. I am past anger and resentment. I am at a point where i just don't care. even that seems harse and cold but its reality. I don't dwell on what she did. The hurt she caused the girls is her own. Maybe this if forgiveness to some. Its peaceful for me. I struggle with what she is doing to the girls because they are teens, they deserve better. My teen D's are going through the struggles of life already, finding out who they are as individuals. Mom in crisis is just the cherry on top.
I am here for them and I will let them vent until they are blue in that face.
Originally Posted By: kml
Forgiveness is a gift you give YOURSELF.
As per my statement above. I think that is my forgiveness. Has nothing to do with her. I have nothing to forgive myself for as I am not the cause of her crisis. forgiveness is probably a bad choice of word for this , It should be called enlightenment or acceptance.
I know why and what she did. Its not her fault. Its not mine. I accept it and will leave her to it. No anger left in me. No regret as there was nothing I could of done to avoid it. No need to watch or attempt to help. My path is me.
Originally Posted By: HaWho
This is a tough concept. I have spent some time trying to understand why forgiveness *really* is for us. We know that it's for healing. We hear that all the time.
But I read somewhere that the real reason we forgive is because we, none of us, are so perfect that we would not need forgiveness ourselves. To forgive is to admit that deep down we would want to be forgiven if we did the unforgivable. And yes, it is to admit that we too could do the unforgiveable.
It's certainly not easy to do.
On that angle I agree. Not easy. My situation is a lot different as I don't interact at all with XW. If she was constantly in my face , abusing and doing what she did when she left. I would be angry and no forgiveness would be had. I would be in a constant struggle of trying to break free.
But I am out of that game. I have my thoughts and I have you guys. Showing me that this is a crisis. Its not mine. Leave her be. let her figure it out and I move on. Life is too short to dwell . I am at peace with my loss. I accept it.
Originally Posted By: rd500
Hi Irish , just on the forgiveness thing, is it necessary or even needed ? Imho no. We move on and we let go of our upset , we let go of the love we had for them and we get on with our lives , hopefully meet someone special and live our lives.
AMEN. move on and find our peace. Let the MCLr figure it out. Forgiveness is definitely not the right term to use for this personal peace.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Irish, may I stick my head in and comment on the subject of forgiveness?
Hi Sandi. anytime :-)
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
I have tried to forgive. But how can one forgive someone who does not ask to be forgiven or even shows and remorse or accepting of their behavior.
Forgiveness is not a feeling. It is a choice. The other person asking for our forgiveness is not a prerequisite. It's not even necessary to tell them you forgive them. That's a personal decision for you.
Quote:
If she had owned it. I could find myself to forgive.
It seems to make it a little more easy when they come to us broken-hearted and humbly ask for our forgiveness. Real strength is required for us to forgive those who are arrogant and stupid. Forgiveness is not based on their abilities......but our own. It is not based on their character, but our own. Forgiveness is not merited, for it is truly an act of grace. Therefore, they will never deserve forgiveness.
Quote:
My current situation .. no forgiveness is needed as it will not be taken as forgiveness. It will be taken as brushing it under the rug. Forgetting about it.
It is not our responsibility as to how they take our forgiveness. Forgiveness is not condoning the offense. It is not forgetting the offense. And yes, forgiveness is for us, for without it.....we carry a cancer within ourselves and it eats away from the inside out until we no longer are recognizable. Unforgiveness is a thief that robs our peace and joy. Our forgiveness may not be desired, appreciated, or recognized by the other person......but it surely is needed for our own spirit to be free.
((Irish))
yes, yes and yes. Sandi i appreciate your words so much. The deep meaning of forgiveness is the same as my deep feeling i have now with my inner peace about me and xw. I know i don't have to forgive her and i probably wont. She is unaware of me wanting to if I ever did. her acceptance of it is her own. I agree so much with your words.
I accept her crisis. I am in an enlightened place (because of so many of you here). Hopefully my daughters when they get through the crisis years of teens and hormones they too will find that peace with what happened.. All I can do is continue to love them and treat them with the respect they deserve. Guide them to make good choices and be good to others.
We can call it forgiveness .. but i know it as acceptance and letting go. Nothing to do with forgiving her. Whats to forgive. Shes not well in a crisis. We move on and find our peace and also enlighten ourselves to a better place.
M51 XW43 (38 at bd) BD1 MAY 30 2015 BD2 JUNE 25 2015 by text moved out Aug 2 2015 left both Daughters 13 and 15 (now 18-20) Her divorce Final July 26 2016 Last time she saw her kids Aug 2 2015
I think it is a gift..we give it because we can- not because the other asks or even deserves it not for me to judge..the gift is for me..for my growth and maybe it will help the other as well we forgive so we can teach our kids to forgive we forgive and we are free-
sometimes it starts by just changing a thought from fear or hurt or anger to love:
I wish them the best I hope they are blessed I hope they are happy and have everything in Life I would want for myself
we say it each time that person come to mind eventually we believe it we do lovingly let them go It is for the best 70X7
Hi Peace :-)
i agree with it all. like i said in my reply above.. forgiveness isn't the term i like using for this inner peace we find.
Do i wish her the best or Hope she is blessed... and finds happiness.. NO> i don't. . i don't wish her any of that.
what i do wish for her to find the strength and love to be a better mom to the girls. .that is all i wish for.
as fr he letting go part.. i am gladly past that point. i wish her no harm and one day I know she will have some sort of relationship with the girls.. when they are ready.
M51 XW43 (38 at bd) BD1 MAY 30 2015 BD2 JUNE 25 2015 by text moved out Aug 2 2015 left both Daughters 13 and 15 (now 18-20) Her divorce Final July 26 2016 Last time she saw her kids Aug 2 2015
So I come up for air from the college search long enough to see this ... this has been a topic of discussion in my IC for the past two months, including tonight's session.
I feel like I understand what happened, what the contributing factors were on both sides that caused my marriage to end.
A part of me feels no forgiveness is necessary as I know he is suffering.
Another part of me is hurt, angry, etc that he bailed on us. That exh was quite simply not capable of keeping his commitment to me and our family.
Trying to hold the two in balance is exhausting work.
To me what is meant by "Forgiveness is for ourselves" - my exh doesn't need to hear me say those words. I'm trying to get to a point where I truly feel it in my heart. I know the day that I heal that split between no forgiveness is necessary and the other side which is quite opposite, that's the day I will be truly free.
For me- and this is just for me, so take it for what that's worth- I believe that forgiveness like joy is a choice. Forgiveness is something private that I acknowledge deep within so that I can be truly free. It's not acceptance. Acceptance is understanding. Forgiveness is several steps beyond understanding. It allows my exh to truly be whomever it is he chooses to be. It has elements of equanimity, love, letting go, and compassion is its foundation.
This is just my definition of it.
just my $.02.
back to the college search xoxoxo
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
here's another thought. as a Catholic, part of the sacrament of marriage vs the sacrament of Holy Orders is that in marriage you truly learn Christ and God's love for us by fully loving and knowing one other person vs serving others and seeing Christ and God's love in many.
By that definition, it seems to me that even this horror show known as MLC presents us with an opportunity to learn about Christ's and God's love for us, through loving and forgiving our errant mates. What I mean is that we humans have an infinite capacity to epically mess up anything and everything, yet we are still taught that Christ and God love and forgive us.
It seems to me that as married persons our vows were to try to emulate that love to our mates, in sickness (MLC) and health, for better or worse (who knew how bad worse really was?), for richer or poorer (especially given the MLCr's propensity to spend spend spend), til death do us part.
Just because we are no longer married doesn't seem to me to be a reason to stop loving someone. And I believe loving someone doesn't mean we need to put up with the MLC BS, abuse, lack of remorse, etc. And to truly love, doesn't that mean we will also forgive?
It's like being angry at someone for having hazel eyes instead of blue ones. They are what they are right now. We can't change them. We can't expect them to give or be that which they are not capable of giving or being.
And here's the unexpected bonus for us: we don't have to live with it any more.
And here's the truly saddest part: no matter how fast or how far they run they still DO have to live with it.
Sorry for my philosophical ramblings on your thread. Clearly it's time for me to turn in for the night.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
As a fellow Catholic and DBer, It was a goal to be able to see h thru God's eyes.
Butterfly, I felt joy for brief glimmers of time I really saw my h in his best, divine light. Oh how I loved him... I turned my cheek when he crushed my heart and left us for 2 years...off/on and wounded our d's...
a decade later I wonder if seeing h thru God's eyes was the greatest thing I'd done of my life, and moving to Alaska was the greatest most selfless thing I had done only to have h change in front of my eyes, to a resentful man who bought things without anyone else participating
so I wonder if it was the most gullible/delusional thing I had done, b/c he slapped my other cheek and broke our youngest d's heart again just years later.
I don't regret loving him deeply, I did feel it. And I was damn loyal too. I did not get that back from h, and that's not the worst thing in the world.
But I projected my love and integrity onto h, (& mistook his hard work for character)
and conversely he projected his use of other people onto me, as if I was "using him for his money" as he had used me as the touchstone of our family, which he could leave for any "career goal" OR Hunting/fishing trip which HE deserved!
when in reality all we ever wanted from him, was his TIME, but all he'd give was small gifts of money from the WORK HE did.. Which, somehow, he resented. I cannot think of a single time, ever, that he thanked me for being a SAHM. I mean, not once.
HE was gone so much
He created the very alienation that he later came to resent with our children.
Butter,
my h made a series or selfish choices, and he lied about them, and this was over a lot of time AND it was not the first time. It's not really like blue eyes, is it?
I fear that The longer I love him -in anything other than a detached way-, the more I'll risk being hurt again. With our history, that would be violating my own boundaries.
But I hope i won't start hating him. The marriage was once a beautiful thing, then it became a terrible thing, now I'm creating a new life of truth & intention. Not blending into someone else's goals/dreams, only to lose mine. No thanks.
Life is short and God gave me life. I want to live it now, without a person who abused my trust and repaid me with lies and contempt.
No thanks. That's done. I look forward to feeling indifference.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I prayed for the longest time that I would see my H's face with life in his eyes, the core of him showing. It has been 2 years almost and he is still lost on dead shark eye land. I feel sorrow and compassion for him.
I would not have chosen this for either of us, but it doesn't change what was real and a blessing before my H was diagnosed with a mental illness. If it hadn't been good and real, none of us would have fought so hard to keep faith with our M's would we?
I can't hate the broken creature that is my beloved, even if I hate his behaviour sometimes. I thank God for the love I have known, for the kindness of strangers and for the ability to see hope and light in a future life.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
If it hadn't been good and real, none of us would have fought so hard to keep faith with our M's would we?
I can't hate the broken creature that is my beloved, even if I hate his behaviour sometimes. I thank God for the love I have known, for the kindness of strangers and for the ability to see hope and light in a future life.
Thank you!
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
25 a better analogy on my part would have been an illness (nurture) vs something genetic like eye color (nature). For me, and only for me, this is how I view my sitch and my exh.
also, everyone's sitch is different, and everyone's viewpoint is different. You've certainly been through a very long haul, and continue to go through it. I'm happy to take this to my thread so we don't hijack Irish's. xoxoxoxo
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
I see it as both/and, 25. I think my H had psychological weak spots from FOO (nurture). Severe depression seems to be an immeasurable mix of situation/biochemistry.(both?) And the way he handled his own crisis looked like a mixture of free choice, textbook depression and unhealthy emotional coping skills.
I think we do reach our own viewpoint in our own sitch/M. I guess for me: - the person I loved would not have freely chosen to destroy his whole life and be under psychiatric care, no more than my mother would have chosen dementia - easier for me because I saw him fall apart into a shaking, frightened suicidal mess in the first few months and a lot of his behaviour has been frankly weird and nothing to do with our M - blame doesn't really change anything. I choose to love this human being quietly regardless. If he had ever asked for my forgiveness, and for his own mental health a bit like an alcoholic, he would also need to accept that he is accountable for the effect of his behaviour no matter the cause, I suppose.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
