Act Now or Cry Later

[HaWho]

Link to my last thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2754265&page=1

Thanks all for the birthday wishes. So nice to receive them!!

Job - interesting that he's looking for his authentic self. The last week he has made some pronouncement like statements. He says them loudly, almost like he is trying to convince himself?

H used to be friends with older, very steady sorts of guys; men 20 years older. It took me years to connect that it was a father figure thing and these men were even his father's age! Of course this is no longer his peer group in MLC.

Anyway, the other day he announced "all my friends are much older guys." S13 said "no, not really." H said it's always been that way. (Not the last 3 years.) Maybe he is in a time warp?

At dinner the other night he announced that if he won the lottery he'd start orphanages that could really change the world for kids. This one surprised me. He has not shown this level of depth in a lonnnnng time. He said he wanted to help those kids who were stuck in bad home situations where their parents didn't really want them. (I think this is him working through childhood issues; maybe wishing someone rescued him?)

He said (really loudly): "I LOVE to read." (He used to and has in fact started again.) But it's odd how he announces it. He's just missing he bullhorn.

He came into the kitchen and was so excited about something; an idea he had. We had a normal conversation and he was so like his old self. (Don't worry, I don't take it as a sign that he's woken up! Just a moment in time, I know.)

I bought s11 some new sliders. They are one size too big. They've been by the front door for a few weeks now. I bought them larger as the size below was a touch small and I was worried he'd outgrow them.

I took Friday off and had a great day with the kids. In the evening I came home w s11 and two of his friends. H came out of the dorm room and asked whose big shoes were by the door. I answered s11's friend's (not knowing he was talking about the shoes that had been here for weeks). H said they were so big. I said I guess his feet have grown. H went and got the sliders I bought for s13 and asked if they belonged to the friend. I said those were s13's. It's weird he hadn't seen them prior to this.

The hilarious thing? He then went and asked s13 if they were his! And did it right in front of me!!! Like I was lying?

The shoes have been there for weeks! But on my day off he notices them? Does he think I brought a guy into the house with my kids here?!?

I am sitting quiet and carefully listening. I hope some of this may help future LBS who have a live-in MLCer.

[Gordie]

Good that he's started to read again. No idea what to make of the pronouncements. Nice that son called him out on his friend delusion. When my kids contradict w she gets really annoyed. Whose shoes are these? Was he trying to be funny / joke with you?

[roist]

Ha who,

IMHO you will not cry later. The time it takes to go through your stand or your H's mlc will never be gotten back. That is why we don't just sit in a corner pinning waiting for it to pass. Live life with a bigger spoon to use your own words.

I don't think you need to pressure yourself to decide or do anything NOW.It is not now or never. You have no pressure to act immediately.

Now I know as time goes by the accumulated affect can weigh on us. Improvements in H may appear trivial and certainly fall short of being adequate.I believe we should try to minimise that accumulation and try to assess things just on current situation. This is hard to do. If we keep score our spouses will obviously lose. But we do not win.

I am not saying to give H a free pass and forgive/forget everything you have been through. That is another unhelpful option. However allowing the accumulation affect, can only lead to resentment which will not serve you either.

I understand that eventually every lbs with a live in WAS will sooner or later decide enough is enough. It is inevitable and IMO even healthy. I see that as afuture possible reality. It doesn't scare me anymore. I look forward to it. BUT I know it is not just yet. For NOW I have a path to follow. This is our choice. One day we may choose differently.

Wow. And that reply was just in response to your title!!

Thanks for continuing to share your journey.

As for the shoes you could have said you will let him figure out who they belong too. Or ask who he thinks they belong to. If he says something about a male friend,just reply that's interesting. Would do him no harm.to think you may be moving on.

Best wishes

[ciluzen]

Hi HaWho!
The pronouncements are an interesting thing. My XH has started doing that, too. His are more along the line of (as I've mentioned) "people like me!", "everyone has baggage!", "I'm no saint!".
I do believe those pronouncements have a lot to do with their inner thoughts and turmoil. Whatever it is that they are struggling with, I believe they still have enough of a connection and comfort level with us that they want us to acknowledge their "achievements". Mine still looks for my reaction...and calls more than needed.
In the case of your H, I think he is actually doing the inner work that we did early on...who am I apart from everyone else? What do I really like? What is important to me? As we know, that is a pretty good indicator of someone struggling to find their authentic self. He's trying to grow up.
I can only hope my XH someday gets to that point, for his sake. His pronouncements are more indicative of someone in a different phase. I believe he is trying to actually acknowledge the reality of how he is perceived by others, as I think for years he was overcompensating for his own low feelings about himself by being a "Mr Nice Guy". He's finally realizing that, yes...people do like him even when he's fearful, weak and complaining (his hospital stay and staff reaction), he's perfectly normal in having had baggage from childhood (not something he needs to be ashamed of and hide), and that yeah, he has not behaved well towards others and has made mistakes (he tried to make me or our daughters think we were crazy or sub-standard). Its more like a little boy saying, "I'm a big boy! Look at what I learned!" than "This is who I believe I am as a person, regardless of age or others' reactions to me."

My H is still looking for approval from others, but acknowledging that he is might be somewhat acceptable even with flaws.

Yours seems to be in the next phase: maybe not caring so much what others think of him anymore, but concentrating on figuring out who he actually is. I think you still sticking around even after he's said and done all of the things he has speaks more to that neglected child maybe than you even think. You've even whacked him with a few 2x4s and still taken care of him. Finding what appears to be another man's shoes may have set some wheels in motion within his noggin, too. Apparently, it bothered him.

Keep it up, HaWho. You are magnificent. Who knows what the future holds?

[HaWho]

Gordie - no, he wasn't joking about the shoes. I can tell he wasn't.

Roist - yes! The title of my thread is about eating life with a big spoon. It's not about me deciding today what I am doing about my marriage. I can get lost and cry over this time at a later date when I realize I've wasted years or I can make the most of living. So "act now" is about stepping on the gas pedal of life.

Ciluzen - yikes! Some of those pronouncements read like "Daily Affirmations with Stuart Smalley" from SNL!!!

So one of my sisters came to visit for a few days. She was last here 1 1/2 years ago and prior to seeing h then she kept downplaying h's depression. Then, when she arrived she was floored and realized that yes, this was a crisis.

H did not hire a cleaning lady for his bathroom instead he cleaned it up himself! It was not really well done; still quite gross really but he straightened up. I thanked him for all his help.

When I arrived w/my sister he was out of his room and immediately joked with her: the same running joke he's always had with her. He asked her questions and was engaged w/her.

When he left the room she was floored and said he seemed so much better: more aware of what was going on around him, regaining his sense of humor and more alert. At times he laughed and it was genuine. He looked her in the eye at times. (And every once in a while he looks me in the eye as well.) I don't talk about him with her. In fact I said I needed to not talk about him as I needed some break from it all. So her read was not biased by me.

Anyway, we had a great visit, though too short. H did not opt to do anything with us when we went out w/the kids. It was funny to watch him make up excuses. But he often offered to help to give us alone time. And that courtesy was different too.

H has been in his room a lot. It was so nice for me to have the adult conversation.

[job]

I am glad your sister came to visit. Her visit provided you w/some "sane" adult conversation for a change. Your h is very good at wearing masks. It must get pretty tiring for him to put on a happy face when around others...but then again, he may be growing up a bit. Let's see how he does in the next week or so since he's back in his dorm room.

At least he was friendly and helped out a bit. I know he cleaned the bathroom and it wasn't up to your standards, but at least he made the effort. Some wouldn't have done a darn thing.

Enjoy your day!

[ciluzen]

HaWho,

Your H is obviously doing some inner work and evolving in his dorm room chrysalis. What does it mean? Well, for him...he is going to change. The difference in his behavior between this visit from your sister and the last time is quite large. So...evolving. What does it mean for your relationship? Who knows. But you standing by and not abandoning a person who grew up somewhat neglected, him watching you mother your children...you are playing a huge part in his process simply by being a caring, responsible, and supportive mother to your children while having the patience to put up with his shenanigans. He has not left the house, but you have not given up on him by asking him to leave. If one thinks that it is going unnoticed by him, I believe that one would be mistaken. Not mind-reading here. Its written all over the actions you are describing.

Keep it up, HaWho. It must be so difficult, but you are a raising your children, ALL of them (even the 47 year old), to be authentic, well loved, responsible men. They will learn about love and relationships and strength from you.

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, glad you had a good visit with your sister, and I agree that there sound to be a few more positives coming from your H.

Eating life with a big spoon is a great attitude to have and for those who choose to stand, there is a fine balance between doing so and putting your own life on hold.

Credit to him if he is doing some inner work, and I am glad for him if so. For you, I would merely note and move forward, not attaching any particular expectations.

I too admire how you handle things, and I know that you are going to be just fine however things may unfold in your life.

Very best wishes to you xx

[Gordie]

HaWho,

You are the most patient person around here. How do you do it?

For most of us mere mortals, we couldn't put up with it for such an extended period of time.

[peacetoday]

I think Ciluzen said it all
very well put!

[HaWho]

Job - yes, I am thankful he made the effort and I know most do not. And last time, remember, he was tossing dishes in the garbage and not eating my food as he was sure I was plotting to kill him.

Ciluzen - thanks for the great post. Your advice always makes me feel like everything is going to be just fine. You have such a reassuring way about you.

Sotto - I realize now that I will be just fine no matter what. I see people like you and the other vets like Job and it's inspirational.

Oh Gordie - you have tons of patience yourself. You'll look back on this all and think: how did I get through that?

Hi Peace - ditto! And I am thankful you still post here as it's always reassuring to hear that your kids are okay from all this.

H seems to be very aware. It's small things like if I yawn he jokingly asks if he is boring me. Or, like the other day, I went to close one of A/C vents in his car as it was blowing on me. Only I am never in his car so I was struggling to find it. And he did it for me. It was weird to see him aware.

He's been calling me my old knickname a lot. It's not a romantic one, more silly and playful. And he's been joking a lot. I think I come across as stiff as it still startles me to see his funny side. It's been buried so long. Today he was saying something funny and he laughed and laughed.

Then there was this interesting conversation. He texted me last week to say his mechanic passed away at age 55. I said I was sorry. I know it scares him. Me: "We all have to come to terms with it." Him: "Come to terms with what?" Me: "Aging and death." Him: "Oh. I am not afraid of that at all. Not one bit." Yeah. Sure. I gave him static after that.

Today I had to take the kids for a few school clothes they still wanted. And I think I had a visit from a previously aged child. As we were getting ready to leave for shopping, h asked if he could catch a ride. I said sure and asked where he needed to be dropped. Turns out he wanted to buy clothes. He was so awkward about it all; just like a 14 year old going with someone else's mom. When I paused (because I was so surprised he wanted to come with us) he started to backpeddle. He said: it's okay. I don't need to come. I said: no, no; of course you can come.

And so he did. He started to justify his need for clothes: how he hasn't bought them in so long and how his are in such bad shape, etc. It was kind of sad, like he didn't think he deserved them or something. He shopped like one of the kids. So like my 14 year old.

And at the end he just put his stuff in the cart and walked away just like the kids did! He went off to look at more interesting stuff rather than waiting in line, which is just what the kids do. I wonder if he wanted to experience before school shopping just like my kids do?!? It certainly seemed so. I doubt he did this with his mom.

I treated him just like one of the boys and tried to give him tons of dignity, which I think he was not given as a child. "Hey, did you find some stuff you like? Oh, that'll look nice on you. Do you have enough shirts? Are you all set, or should we go to one more store." He was very, very quiet through it all.

Weird, just weird.

[OwnIt]

HaWho, I just don't know how you do it. I remain in awe. Thanks for the observation on the off the grid thing. It is times like that I realize that, in addition to the NPD, there is definite MLC behavior going on.

I can picture that shopping trip exactly as one I would have had with my 14yo son. Mine still wears the clothes I bought him. I haven't seen any evidence of anything new. Very odd.

[job]

I think you handled the shopping expedition beautifully. Yes, he wanted to be part of that activity and I would bet he never did it as a child, so it's one more childhood experience that he can mark off his to do list as a "man/child".

From your posting, your h is slowly, but ever so slowly, moving along. He's still very fragile and is testing the waters by joking and calling you by your old nick name.

You are handling your situation very, very well. Why? Because you understand that your h is actually reliving a part of his unfinished past and you are seeing the various ages as he progresses along the path of his life. Keep up the good work. I know it gets to you at times, but, when it does, take some time out for yourself and recharge your battery.

[Brubeck]

HaWho -

Wow, do you have one sharp pair of eyes! How keen to notice all this replay behavior inside your clothes shopping visit with him and its potential meanings.

This is the benefit of detachment. I suppose if you were still on his crazy train, you would have spent each moment wondering when he was going to spew / vent / go sideways on you. You receded into the situation and let him do his thing.

At least you know MLC is weird, stops you from trying to make sense of what's in their head.

[HaWho]

Thanks Ownit, Job and Brubeck.

Ownit - you are one tough cookie yourself!

Job - it's just crazy the things I've seem him do. Often I still think of you seeing your ex playing with matchbox cars. What a bizarre landscape MLC is.

Brubeck - you nailed it. I just expect the weirdness now; same as you do.

Here's some pearls. H is back to projecting onto the dog. Recently overheard: H: "the dog is old" (he's 4!) "and he needs to do more to stay young." Me: "he seems happy as he is." H: "no! He's getting old." Me: "It comes to us all, let the dog age in peace." Also he told s13: "I am almost 50, when I am 50 I will be officially old."

One day he butt dialed me and there was a 50 word text of complete gibberish. He then wrote "did you get all that?" (There's a flash of his humor.) Me: "that's the most sense you've made in 3 years." Him: "making sense to me." Hmm. What's interesting is he didn't monster. Last year he would have raged back and there would be zero humor.

The other day I was walking the dog early AM on our anniversary. H texted me: "I remembered first again. It is official and date stamped with this text. HA!"

I wanted to text him that he's a moron. 8 weeks ago he told me what we do is none of the others' business! AND he is texting me Happy Anniversary from his recreated dorm room because he moved out of our bedroom!! It's so bizarre. And I did not forget the anniversary but there's no way, given the circumstances, that I'll be initiating a toast to us. It's like an episode of Westworld.

But, as I walked I remembered that in 2013 he monstered on our anniversary. He was SO angry all the time. 2014 and 2015 he was practically catatonic on the anniversaries. Last year it was just a "Happy Anniversary" text. This year there was a splash of humor. So I texted back a vanilla "Happy Anniversary."

I had a sad moment on the anniversary where I remembered the reception, how much fun I had and the life I imagined. Poof to that! Then I grounded myself and marveled at how much I have survived! My story took a crazy hairpin turn.

Anyway, he sometimes makes eye contact with me; maybe 2 times a week--just a flash, nothing he sustains. He no longer seems to monster like he used to do. He has begun making jokes instead. If the kids tease him, rather than snapping he jabs back and frequently smiles at their humor. Bizarre as this sounds he seems to have his relationship with the dog back. He talks to him the same way he used to do. He "sees" him again and on a consistent basis.

He still obsesses with aging constantly. He's still in the dorm room all the time. I think the wallpaper in his room gets out more.

The other day h was teasing s13. I said something and h told ME to stop being so serious and to lighten up!

As for me, I am keeping busy with my kids, work & seeing friends.

[OwnIt]

HaWho, mine has had our cats a month now with our house on the market. He hasn't even bothered asking me how the house sale is going or when I'm taking the cats back. I find it so odd. Sometimes I think maybe he is enjoying having them as some reminder of the "normal" life he no longer has.

I'm glad your H is being more humorous and less angry and that you have some of your wistfulness back.

[HaWho]

Thanks Ownit. Glad you have your cats back now!

Things are moving along here. I am super busy with work and that is going well. I was recently handled a difficult project at work and my co-worker commented that it was because I was a no nonsense type of person. HAH! If she only knew the nonsense in my life at home. Thank goodness I have my world away from MLC.

Speaking of MLC, h has been very irritable. It reminds me of years ago when he was always cranky. And, of course, it's all over stupid nonsensical stuff. Today's riveting episode was over a marshmallow.

S14 has been sick the last few days. Today he feels better and as I was making breakfast s went to sneak a marshmallow and h (who has been gunning for a reason to get mad) had a tantrum that he was eating the marshmallow before breakfast. He huffed off. It was something to witness.

I ignored it. I see him looking for excuses the release pressure. And he leaves no stone unturned as a way to pick a fight.

There are differences now though. He isn't gone long. And in fact, he now returns kind of with his tail between his leg. And sometimes he even apologizes! Whoa. That is big. He does seem to recognize his ridiculousness all on his own.

The other day I bought something for s and h got mad saying we shouldn't spend money on it. (Eye roll as it's nauseating what he has spent on himself and this was a pittance in comparison.) So I said I would pay for it out of my own budget. At which point h downplayed it all, hugged son (!) and told him he was sorry.

He doesn't apologize to me; only to the kids. He wasn't capable of this awareness a year ago.

But still it is so funny to watch the ridiculousness. Yesterday, from work, I ordered s lunch as he was home sick. He was not up for cooking and he's only had homemade broth for a whole day and a 1/2. He finally had an appetite and I wanted him to rest and eat.

A few hours later, sure enough, a crazy text comes from h. He wants to know how much I spent on the lunch!!! He tells me it's a waste and he's all cranky. I swear he wants to fight. So I waited and said with tip and delivery, it was 20 bucks. And then I said, it's all he's eaten in 2 days. So, that's 20 bucks for 6 meals. Hopefully that drove home how stupid this all was.

There is still some jaw dropping weirdness. The other day h walked out of the dorm room with a hoe! He brought it into the garage, left it there and went back to his stinky room. A few hours later I saw he hoe in the garage when I was taking the trash out. An hour after that h asked me where his rake was. I said "you mean your hoe?" And he got flustered and said yeah. I told him he carried it to the garage. And he accused me of taking it out of his room (which is always locked) and hiding it on him. I burst into laughter and told him he was mad as he carried it out himself. He muttered that maybe he was going crazy.

The hoe is still in his room...

[OwnIt]

Sorry to make light but maybe if he can't have one kind of ho he will take the other.

In all seriousness, you are really the queen of dealing with crazy.

[kml]

Just trying to imagine why he would have a hoe in his bedroom makes my head hurt.

Is there any history of Alzheimer's in his family? If so, you might be able to use his OCD to good effect by getting him to read a book called The End of Alzheimer's by Bredesen. It's a program that's been effective in reversing mild to moderate dementia, but if you could convince him to try it for prevention, it would probably also work for whatever is wrong with his brain right now.

[Gordie]

HaWho,

Re the marshmallow. Thank you for reminding me I am not crazy. Stbxw recently got mad at me over the types of lunch snacks I had packed for my kids' lunch. Really??? I read something that when people do this what they are really asking for is...attention.

Gordie

[bttrfly]

Interesting

[job]

So much drama over a marshmallow. It makes me shake my head and wonder if something similar transpired in his youth. His constant worry over money being spent sounds like a very real concern of his...again makes me wonder if he heard these comments as a youth.

As for hoe...well, that's a new one. We had a lovely lady posting here from England many years ago and when her H flipped, he actually removed the two steps to the shed and took them w/him. Did he need them in a flat? No, but he did take them and when the reconciled, he had to build new steps. Another lovely lady had a child's desk and chair in her son's room. Her h took the child's chair (which was used by her young son). They take whatever strikes them at that particular moment.

Of course, if you look for the humor in the hoe scenario, he could be weeding the dust bunnies or the mildew in his bath. Trust me, he truly doesn't know why he has the hoe and for what purpose he needs it in the room unless he's having nightmares and needs to fight off the monsters that come out to play when it's dark.

Chalk it up to odd behavior...but by MLC standards w/many of them...the hoe is a mild one. BTW, I'm not trying to make excuses for his odd behavior, but his antics are tame compared to many others.

[ciluzen]

Bahahaha OwnIt!

But, really HaWho...why is it important to have a hoe in his room? Or "rake"? Spider issues? His remote won't work? Doesn't like to bend over to reach things? Is there that much mess that he has to clear a path? Imaginary monster basher? Is he gardening? Maybe a zen sand garden? I really want to know now!

And as for the marshmallow incident, it seems to be in alignment with his food issues and past neglect. What would have happened if he had snuck a marshmallow (or any food) before breakfast in his home growing up? Or was he given breakfast? Maybe he saw it as a form of disrespect from your son because he felt that son should appreciate that he was being fed? Who knows. MLC craziness and childhood ishes...my brain is overwhelmed with it these days and I'm not even really directly dealing with it!

You still amaze me in your ability to detach and report and carry on. Keep it up, HaWho. And that's great that you are getting the recognition for your abilities at work. These struggles and MLC acquired skills really do cross over, don't they?

[roist]

I wouldn't condone my sons eating high sugar sweets before meals either. I probably would be more lenient if kid had been sick. Couples make such a big deal over little unimportant stuff, though you were wise to realise this wasn't about the marshmallow... .... unless of course H has a fear of the marshmallow man from ghost busters. That could even explain the hoe!!

I see a lot of reconnecting happening. Albeit indirect through humour, he does seem to be trying more and more. I doubt it is a conscious decision on his part, but he does seem to prefer to have improved interactions.

Thank you for giving us this on going observation of his behaviour.

I am glad you are able to step back and not get sucked into reacting and escalating these situations. Well done.

Best wishes

[HaWho]

Thanks Ownit, KML, Gordie, Bttrfly, Job, Cil and Roist. I so appreciate all your support!

Kml - the only person in his family who had dementia was his paternal grandmother and she was almost 90 when that set in. She was sharp as a tack for the very longest time. In fact, at our wedding she was in her mid-seventies, and she danced more than the children!!! (Work friends thought she was my h's mother!) But I checked out the book and it's interesting.

Anyway, so where am I these days? Well, I am working a lot. And that is good. It's challenging and rewarding and validating. It's important for me to keep working towards financial independence. I was a SAHM mom for quite some time. A large part of rebuilding, for me, has been having a place separate from h and my life with him.

I've been playing less tennis so I think I am going to find a night league where I can play one match a week.

I see friends outside of work and this is a group that knows nothing about my sitch. I find that refreshing as I use my time with them as an outlet for not thinking about it.

As for h? Well, I don't see him all that often. He really keeps to his room these days. Sometimes he texts me something. He does seem more aware of the kids. Actually, he is more engaged in their lives and aware of their routines, etc. Often he says he is tired.

I guess he's had some health issues. Recently he mentioned that he had been found to be pre-diabetic. Then he had a follow up and was cleared of that.

Here's a funny one. One morning I was fixing my makeup in a downstairs hallway mirror. H appeared and asked me if I had taken his toothpaste. I said no; sensing this was going to go MLC weird, my body froze and I started to gather up my makeup so I could go elsewhere to finish. While I was zipping up bags he started to explain that he had ordered some items but the toothpaste was not in the package. He said it was okay if I took the toothpaste?!? I said I had no idea about any of it and immediately exited stage left. I was ready for him to come out with some outlandish accusation.

So odd. Why on earth would I take his toothpaste?!? And does he think I opened his mail to get it? The whole scene reminded me of being on the subway and that creepy guy coming to sit real close to you. Every woman knows the feeling.

Strange to think that come a few weeks I am three years post BD. Of course, like others I thought I'd be done with all this by now. While I have come to terms with much of the detour my life has taken, I still have much residual anger that this is now my kids' FOO. I know it only takes one parent to pull them through and I am thankful that so many w/kids continue to post from the other side of this.

My kids are doing well. They have friends and keep busy. They are both doing very well academically. S14 cooks a meal each week and enjoys it. He says it's his way to relax. He is so responsible. In his teenage moments I see so many parallels to h. I have learned to listen and detach. I find when I remain calm he settles and mirrors.

Thanks all for your wonderful support. Special thanks to Job. Like so many others here, you helped me through some very, very dark days.

And to all newbies, yes, it does get easier!

[peacetoday]

Your situation always seemed a bit different from most of our since your MLCer stayed at home and you handle it good and move on at the same time

still curious to see how this eventually lands since he is still there-

have a good weekend!

[bttrfly]

thx for the update!
yeah, bizarre - "did you take my toothpaste"
did he not get a packing slip showing which items shipped/didn't ship?

Was it just an excuse to start a lame conversation with you?

I'm glad you're in a detached place with this. Living in the midst of it, you have to be as detached as possible to survive it.

The residual anger is normal given your circumstance.

I'm glad things are going smoothly with the boys.

xoxo

[OwnIt]

Thank goodness he provides you with comic relief from time to time to survive this ordeal. I guess we are the bad guys for every single thing that goes wrong, aren't we.

[roist]

I was wondering if you would post soon. Otherwise I would have had to prompt!!

Boy do I understand that three year mark. Mine is next week.When I started this journey........let's just say, I didn't imagine still being in this situation three years later. I almost started to ramble on about my journey but prefer to just state I like your company in the three year club.

I also understand your fears for your children. Being aware of the potential outfall will help you ensure they are not adversely affected. You got this.

Anyway just wishing you my best.

[Sotto]

3 years - oh my goodness! I didn't want to divorce as you know - equally, in many ways I feel I had it easy due to the distance in my situation. Once XH was gone, that was pretty much it and no looking back from him. I can't imagine living daily with the situation like you do and I applaud you for your humour balance and grace. Xx

[HaWho]

Peace - there have been some w/live-ins. Cadet mentioned one to me early on and he knew her personally. I can't remember her name. But, I try to post a lot as I hope it helps both those who have live-ins and those with limited contact.

Bttrfly, Ownit, Roist and Sotto - thanks for posts. So nice to hear from you all.

Tonight I came home from work and s12 + h were eating burgers. I asked if this was their dinner and h said it was lunch?!? But they had lunch at school of course. S13 ate elsewhere after school. (This has happened several times now where I come home and they are having this "lunch" at 5:30.)

So I asked everyone if they were still hungry and of course the kids said no. H then sent me a text saying he wanted to "nip this in the bud." He told me it seems I am regularly trying to dump my responsibility of making dinner?!? Then he said it was no problem for him as he could take care of himself but that I had to take care of the kids?!? I feed them every night so I have no idea what he is talking about.

And that's what I wrote back; that I was confused. I told him I arrive at 5:30 and everyone is eating a huge meal and not hungry at 6:00. (And I didn't write it but I thought DUH!)

He then wrote back that the kids need calories as they are thin and malnutritioned!

I wrote back and said he cracked me up texting from down the hall when he swore he would never be that type. He replied that he does not want to fight in front of the kids and that is why he texts?!? I did not respond. But later he totally avoided eye contact with me. He was leaving rooms as I walked in and just avoiding me. He seemed really shy for the call out. He used to be so direct and blunt.

I know this sounds nuts but hunger and lack of food were big issues in his childhood. His mom did not cook for him often and he was hungry a lot. I wonder if this is projection? Or him talking to his mom?

Another thing he is doing that is weird? He wants the kids to eat the same lunch he always ate in his childhood: pizza. He orders it for them constantly. And he lived off that for many many years as a young adult and maybe a kid, too.

Job- if you are reading, is this something you have seen before?

[Gordie]

Incidents like this over lunch/dinner and the clothes shopping do really feel like he is replaying his childhood anxieties out in real time. We use the term MLC loosely around here but your H at times really does seem mentally ill at times. I don’t know how you handle it. You are a strong woman.

[ciluzen]

Hey HaWho!

I think you're right on about him talking to his mother through you. If it doesn't make sense, always change your point of view to theirs, with the little info you might have about his childhood. He sees the kids as starving because his hunger is probably triggering that memory from his childhood. I'm sure he is trying to "fix" the situation now that he can drive and pay for food, much as he probably wished he could or that someone else would have for him.

What if you role played it back instead of defending yourself? What if, when he does tht type of thing, you just say, "dinner in a half an hour! Hope you'll be hungry." Or if he mentions neglect on your part, you just text something like, "I had no idea that I wasn't caring for them adequately! Thank you for calling it to my attention!" And then proceed to make a large dinner. In other words, validate his feelings so he feels heard. The worst that can happen is...leftovers the next day.

If he is working through childhood issues and he is in the process of transference, using you as a means to confront his mother, he would need to feel heard. As much as it feels good to point out his faulty thinking; shame, guilt, and powerlessness are probably what he is trying to work through. Go ahead and accept the role of his mother, but let him "win" in the present and feel comforted and cared for. See what happens. I'm all for psych experiments.

Hang in there, Ha. He seems to really be trying to move through things.

[job]

HaWho,

Yep, I've seen this quite often. He's reliving his childhood through your children. His childhood must have left a huge "mark" on his life. I also think that when he was young he heard the words "thin" and "malnutritioned" a lot from others. Again, a visit back to the land of the lost for him.

It's a shame that he can't seem to get through this stage...but you are being patient and calling him out in a nice way on his stuff. Please keep in mind that he is looking "at" you his mother's replacement and living that life over and over again. He's stuck in the loop, so to speak.

I think he's got a problem w/confrontation. Maybe his parents ripped him a lot when he questioned them and that's why he feels safer texting you. When he avoids you and leaves a room, it could very well be that he's afraid you are going to challenge him and he doesn't want to be embarrassed in front of others. It's not that he's made...but he's afraid of being "shamed" for what he's said or done.

I'm not making excuses for him but evidently he's had a lot of "shaming" in his life from others, i.e., authority figures.

BTW, I think Ciluzen has given you something to think about. Maybe it's time to change the tables a bit and role play for a bit. He wants to be heard and not always challenged about his comments. You know the old saying "if something isn't working, try something else".

[peacetoday]

Interesting

I have done a lot of inner child work over the years, and it is interesting to see someone acting out with no awareness..
in therapy we are taught and we understand when we are reacting, we are reverting back to past experiences and feelings and it does make sense

The great think for you and him is even if he can't see what he is doing..you can
so I like what C said..see what works..he is still there which is unusual and he may be able to heal having a positive caring figure, you--to love him anyway

in reality, you are doing him a great service ..still curious what will happen as time goes on and you continue with love-acceptance and tolerance of his crises-

[LouR]

Hey HaWho,

You are receiving great advise, I don't really have anything to add to what has already been said. I just want to send you huge hugs and tell you that you are an amazing and genuinely incredible woman, very few would tolerate what you are and sticking with your sitch .......(my keypad just changed sitch to sitcom haha, almost apt huh) ...

Your h sounds like he must have had a really traumatic childhood and is struggling to make peace with it. Sadly I fear until he understands that he cannot change the past but can live his future he will continue to be stuck in this time. I really hope one day soon he chooses to get some professional help to get him past this stage and to moving forward to reconnecting with present life, you and the family.

As always you sound grounded and detached from his crazy; finding the amusement in his words and actions, you have developed an understanding that whilst he aims his rubbish at you, it's not really personal, he is projecting. I still worry about you though, so please look after your own mental wellbeing, never devaluate your own importance and happiness through all this.

Love and hugs to you xoxo

[roist]

No advice tonight. Just my.best wishes and to add that when I struggle with my situation I think of how you are doing and it helps me find more strength. Thank you for that.

[Sotto]

I agree with others that he's exploring things that happened in his childhood and projecting on to you. What he wanted to say to his Mum - you didn't look after me and feed me properly - he's saying to you..

It sounds a little bizarre and out of touch with reality. I agree that your H doesn't follow the 'classic' MLC pattern. He's still in the family home and seems to be slow burning. But I have read about MLCers (a minority) who were this way.

When I read your accounts, I feel he would really benefit from seeing a therapist, but I guess that's for him to choose - he's not going want to hear that from you would be my guess.

Keep being awesome anyway HaWho xx

[kml]

I know it's hard to think on your feet when these things come so far out of left field. Maybe if something similar happens again, you could roll with it and say "since you boys just ate a full meal, how about I just make a nice dessert later tonight?"

Or even address it directly - "It must have hurt when you felt like your mother didn't care to feed you"

[HaWho]

Thanks Grodie, Ciluzen, Job, Peace, Lou, Roist, Sotto and KML.

Gordie - yes, he really does seem to be in a time warp.

Ciluzen - I tried what you recommended and so far it seems to be helping! Thanks!

Job - his mother was an extremely confrontational and challenging sort of person.

Peace - thanks but lately I don't feel much like a supportive person to him.

Lou - yes, there was a whole lot of trauma in his childhood.

Roist - thanks for the support.

Sotto - I too think he needs a therapist; someone who asks questions that help him connect dots.

KML - Good advice, I will be ready with it!

So BD anniversary 3 came and went. The actual day was not nearly as painful as year 1 or year 2. But, the lead up was worse! Guess I am processing that. The weeks before BD were massively confusing. I knew he was lying. I suspected an affair. I kept asking him to come clean and he wouldn't and then 2 weeks later? The big reveal at BD. I couldn't believe all his evasion.

Anyway, recently, I could see h trying to find a way to talk. He finally came forward and mentioned some small talk. It was a quick conversation. I listened but honestly? I did not linger. I was kind but distant. There was no strategy to it. Lately I have just been processing all the lying he was doing. And as he talked to me I just couldn't get it out of my head. I grabbed the garbage and cut the conversation short.

On BD anniversary I slept like a lamb; best I have slept in years. I still don't sleep through a night. But that night I did! I think I was relieved it passed.

A few times I have called him out on certain things he doesn't remember doing or saying. At first he denies doing x. But when I ask questions he should be able to answer he can't. He gets confused.

He has tried to initiate some "adult-like" conversations. He asked me if I knew there was a new middle school being built. (It's been in the works for years and construction has been ongoing. And I voted for it, so, yeah, unless I'd been trapped under a boulder I would have noticed the block sized middle school.) I said yes and told him they've been working on it a while.

Sometimes he laughs. Sometimes he's animated (this is new). Sometimes he is funny (also new).

There was one day he was in the kitchen and there was just silence. I felt all this tension: lead up to BD anniversary, moment of disbelief that this happened to him, etc. Then I just realized that it is what is and it's not my job to fix it all. I took the pressure off myself and accepted that it should be weird given all that he's done.

As for me? I have been working quite a bit. And I spend a lot of time really thinking about me and where I need to be. I also make time to pamper myself. This too is new for me. But I look at deals online and find great stuff! This month it was a pumpkin facial. I am taking a day off next week to spend with the kids.

Hope you are all well!

[Gordie]

HaWho: 3 years??? Wow. I only lasted one. I say this only because I can’t imagine another two bears of the in house MLC crazy. I am always encouraged by your ability to maintain your own sanity and sense of normal for your kids. You are an amazing woman. And 3 years of restless sleep? That in and of itself takes a toll. I know it does on me. Truly, I wish a better year ahead for you. I am happy for the positive changes he is showing.

[roist]

Best wishes hawho. Glad you got through that anniversary well. Let's see where we are at for no. 4!! Until then keep living as best you can

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, yes it does hurt to think back to those times around BD for sure. When we are so confused and blindsided - not understanding why our M's seem to be slipping through our fingers like sand...

You (and we all) have certainly come a long way since BD and the direction of travel is a good one. I read somewhere recently that the MLC journey is so much worse than the LBS journey and I do believe that is so true.

It must help to have some nice little moments with your H in amongst the other bits. When they happen, it is good to participate and 'reward' (sorry can't find a better word) I think. Your H certainly doesn't seem to be going anywhere or with anyone - unlike most - so that always makes for interesting reading. In many ways it is easier if the MLCer scoots off and is gone as in my situation - so I do applaud you for how you handle things.

I'm glad to read you are indulging in some nice treats too my lovely - you deserve it! Xxx

[mleigh4]

Hi HW. Glad to hear you made it through year 3. I wonder how long before we are able to get past anniversaries and holidays without all those traumatic flash backs. It really does take its toll, I pray each year gets easier for us.

How was your Thanksgiving? So happy to hear you are finding ways to pamper and put yourself first.

Enjoy your day off with the boys

M

[HaWho]

Oh, I had a response typed out and then somehow lost it. Argh.

Now, an abridged update. Thanks Gordie, Roist, Sotto and Mleigh.

Mleigh - my Thanksgiving was good, thanks for asking. Here's an update:

My nephew just moved 2 hours from me so I invited him for Thanksgiving. I told h to hire a cleaner for his so So gross bathroom that has not been cleaned in 10 months (and no, that "10" was not a typo). He hired a cleaner for the whole house! I thanked him. Those poor cleaners that had to clean his bathroom. Yikes.

He was more present in comparison to when my sisters visited and when my niece visited. He was not the zombie he was back then. But the day of Thanksgiving he was very very quiet.

A few weeks ago he hired someone to haul away all the junk he's accumulated. He seems more aware of his surroundings. He notices messes more. He used to be very house proud.

This week he texted me saying we needed to get a Christmas tree. He loves this time of year. Years ago he had the same tree up in his room until July and another year he played Christmas music on Easter!

Here is something interesting: he is watching old movies again. He grew up watching them. He said it was the only normal side of life he saw. Of course, it's not at all a realistic view of life. Maybe he is back in that part of his childhood?

I continue to do things for me. Last week I went to see a movie and took the afternoon to myself. It was divine!

[OwnIt]

It will be interesting to see if he continues to keep up his bathroom or whether he slides back into his filth.

I so look forward to your posts because the detachment is evident and is helpful to see not only how the MLCer moves forward, but how you can really navigate this with kindness and distance (despite being so much closer physically than many of us).

[job]

HaWho,

I was wondering how Thanksgiving went this year. LOL! Well, it appears that your dorm child has taken a few steps closer to the world of reality. Hauling away the junk he had accumulated? Now, that's a huge step in the right direction. Yep, he's waking up just a wee bit. Encourage and thank him when he does this stuff.

Oh, my, I sure do remember the Christmas Tree and the music being played beyond the holiday season. It will be interesting to see how this holiday season goes.

If he's watching old movies again, maybe the holiday season is bringing about a change in him this year. We'll see as the season continues to approach.

I'm so glad to read that you are still doing things for yourself.

Keep up the good work!

[peacetoday]

Hi

You do a great job helping him navigate through the crises while still focusing on you


Really hope he will make it to the other side!

[HaWho]

Thanks Ownit, Job and Peace for the support.

Job - h is significantly less cheery this holiday season. Usually he peps up this time of year but so thus far. On the contrary he has seemed very irritable and quite irrational. It reminds me of the year building up to BD. Except, I see it for what it is and unlike before, I don't engage for even a nano second. And also, he seems to self correct later.

Here's an example. I forgot s had an altered schedule one day. I asked h to help as it makes way more sense schedule-wise for him to do so. It only puts him out 30 minutes whereas It makes me 1 1/2 hours late to work. So I asked h to help. His answer: "too many things come up at the last minute. No, s can walk to school." S is kind of close enough that he could walk except he was just getting over being really, really sick. So I told h this. (As he lives downstairs he does not know that son was up and down several nights, coughing and feverish.) And this was the first day he was well enough to go to school; I didn't want him pushing it by walking. So I told him this. H's answer: "there are too many last minute changes in the schedule, s just needs to figure it out himself. I went to school sick all the time." Lovely.

So I repeated back exactly what h said and asked I had this right. (Secretly I was hoping that when he heard it back he'd hear how stupid it was and re-calibrate.) Nope. He told me this was all correct. Me: "okay" and walk away. So I told s I'd go to work late and take care of it for him.

By the time I was back from walking the dog, h had texted me saying he'd help. And later that day, he texted me to say s was having warm soup, lots of veggies and a healthy fruit drink. I praised h.

There have been about 3 or 4 scenarios like this. He starts off super cranky and irrational. He acts out of spite. And then self corrects the scenario and makes sure I know it.

Now h has caught it, is quite sick, and that's been interesting to watch too. He's a distancer when he's sick. He gets cranky and doesn't really allow help. I swear he recreates his childhood; a scenario where no one cares for him and then he makes it clear he's uncared for. Very PA. Like if I offer him tea he says no and then simultaneously makes his own in a super huffy way. It's bizarre to watch. I don't think he realizes what he's doing.

One day I told him he was a cranky old goat of a thing. He smirked and tried not to laugh. But the kids chimed in and said he had a bad attitude. He covered his mouth trying not to smile.

As for me, I've been keeping busy. I am looking forward to seeing family for Christmas as we're going back east.

[OwnIt]

Always love your updates. One of my H’s crazy videos to the kids said jolly was sadness turned outward. Perhaps he was in a better place and could take his jolly mask off.

[Gordie]

HaWho,

As always, you inspire. As you just checked in on me, I do wonder how you do what you do and if I could possibly do the same? To me, a big difference is your H does not have an OW. I think I was definitely calmer when there was no OM.

I’m glad you are enjoying the season. All the best in your travels!

[HaWho]

Ownit - I think your h communicates through those videos as my h does through music. And I enjoy your updates as well.

Gordie - I agree that other person makes a big difference in our scenarios as does divorce. Remember: my h tried (desperately) to do what your wife has done. He really wanted OW. (It was quite pathetic to watch and I lost a ton of respect for him.) As I told him in no uncertain terms this would lead me to d him, either it scared him or it caused him to bury his relationship with OW. And I would not at all be surprised if he did not in fact have affairs of the very brief kind. I have not snooped for this but if it becomes apparent this may be the deal breaker for me. This would mean he has been lying for quite some time where others are open about this. And as he was always quite honest, this would be in line with his new polar opposite self. He has become quite sneaky where once he was an open book.

Gordie - the other difference is he's never once wanted d or threatened it. He wanted an open marriage. (Yuck!) Had he left I think he would have worked his issues out on OW rather than me. I think this would have spared me a lot of his dysfunction. And if we were d, I definitely would embrace life as such and not still act married. By this I mean we would divide and conquer, not that I'd be running around dating.

So yes, our situations are definitely different. Yours is harder. When I have been at crossroads and struggled to make decisions, I think of a few things: 1) what would I tell my kids to do if they were in my situation? 2) What if my kids knew this whole story and someday asked me about why I made the choices I made and 3) How would I answer to God on this?

One last thing. I made a BIG error in tipping my hand that I am very pro-marriage. In doing so I made my h super comfy. KML warned me not to do this. And she was right. (She is Catholic, too.) Somehow between us we carved out this limbo life. Don't let your wife believe for 1 second that you'll be there forever...

[bttrfly]

{{{{{HaWho}}}}}

Pack for cold sistah, as the winds are brutal here right now. If the wind machine is off it's actually pleasant, but that's a hit or miss.

He does seems to be making glacial progress. I like that you aren't buying into his moods.

Safe travels and happiest of holidays xoxoxo

[job]

Please travel safely. Wishing you and your family a very Merry Christmas and may the new year be a better one for you and your family.

[Gordie]

HaWho,

Thank you as always. I of course have done the very thing you said I shouldn’t do. She knows I’m pro M and believe D is wrong. She used to believe the same! And now she sincerely asks why I can’t live in an open M? At BD, I even said I’ll always be here for you. So not DB.

Well, she now knows I will D her and that I won’t keep living in this unwanted open M. One thing that you make me think about: when I object to her actions, she does act more like a child who is being scolded. I don’t get it and it does throw me off my game because I have no idea how to respond to someone acting like that.

[bttrfly]

@ Gordie: I would act the way I would behave if my child was acting out after being scolded: firm, solid boundaries.

@ HaWho: it's warmish again here, so ... best to prep with layers I guess? Safest of travels to you and yours xoxoxo

[HaWho]

Thanks Bttrfly - we had some crazy cold weather. Yikes!

Gordie - yes, I too saw a lot of childlike behaviors.

Job - thanks for the holiday wishes. Hope you had a great holiday and I wish you the best in 2018!

Well, it was a different Christmas this year, for sure. H loves Christmas but this year he was not able to prop himself up and I do think he's hit a new low.

He bought me a really thoughtless Christmas gift. I know he bought it last minute and put zero thought into it. It hurt at first until I saw everyone received a last minute generic gift. This is a polar opposite for him as he loves gift giving. Hours before we were to arrive at his best friend's house h still had no gift for his old best buddie! And the friend had painted h a painting. Geez. Awful. I remember in my own depression I struggled with gift giving: it took so much energy and it was so hard to make a decision to buy something.

Anyway, we stayed in a hotel suite and h set my bag up in the other room and said that was my room in front of the kids. S14 asked why didn't we sleep together. H said he is up all night and needs his own room. And yes, he ran the tv much all night long. Last year we slept in the same bed. So things are worse this year.

At times s14 "woke h up" as h was staring into space. I call it zoning out and it's awkward to watch. It is exactly as Jim Conway wrote: awkward silences, staring out windows, etc. I do think he's creeped into withdrawal. He was very, very quiet; eerily so. S14 kept pointing out to h that h seemed so sad. H denied it but he looked so droopy. And the distance between us just felt so very great. He barely speaks to me.

At one point he told us all that he uses his music to vent what he is feeling. That, I knew, but it was good that he recognized it as well.

For me it was a happy Christmas and yet a painful one. I savored every moment of seeing my family and being back on the east coast. But, the night we had dinner with h's best friend and his family was so very, very hard. They married a year before us but I could see this couple was so bonded with each other. They've built a beautiful life. H's best friend is all grown up and it only accentuated how lost my own h is. I know they've had some hard years. But they are two people who are capable of working through things and making their m stronger.

My sister-in-law had pulled out pictures of our wedding. She was telling funny stories about that day. H avoided all eye contact and said nothing. It was hard to see the photos. Never in a million years would I have seen this coming. H took some pictures of the pictures; not sure which ones but probably just ones of himself as he was commenting on how very young he looked. My brother watched him and I think he could tell something was off w/h. I saw h watching me look at the pics. We were happy and he was in love with me. It showed in each and every picture.

At one point we drove by the place where we spent our wedding night. I didn't feel much truth be told. It felt like a different life altogether.

My mother-in-law talked with h for a while. They were in a corner together. H was in a lot of corners by himself. She sought him out and I know she was trying to read the situation. At one point h was not feeling well. My MIL asked what was wrong and he snapped at her: "what's it to you?!?" He's snapped like that at me, too, at times. He then changed the subject but boy was his disdain for her palpable.

In other news, I am going to be traveling for work in a few weeks. I am very excited. It will give me a weekend off from h and some much needed time away by myself.

I wish everyone the best in 2018!

[job]

I am so very sorry that this year he was not able to wear the mask for very long, if at all. Sounds like he was miserable and didn't know how to relate to people being happy. So very sad.

I am glad you were able to enjoy the holidays in spite of your h's behavior. It's difficult at times to deal w/someone who is so very depressed and doesn't know how to dig himself out of it.

As for your MIL, she doesn't get it and most likely will never do so.

I'm sure you will enjoy traveling and being away from the "madness" for a while.

Wishing you and your family a far better year than the one that is ending.

[OwnIt]

HaWho, isn't it strange that while this description sounds quite sad, at the same time it seems to be part of the necessary progress for him so hopefully it is ultimately a good thing.

Selfishly I'm wondering if you are still seeing paranoia? I am still seeing this, as well as the continued quest to "find empathy." I can't figure out if it is legitimate questioning of where he is in life and how he got there, or just further manipulation because I challenged his stoic beliefs as ridiculous.

[Gordie]

HaWho,

I’m glad you were able to enjoy yourself despite the awkwardness. I really don’t know how you have been so patient through all of this. You are amazing. Re MIL, does she have any awareness of the childhood issues and anger he harbors towards her?

[bttrfly]

My dear HaWho, I wish you a year full of love, joy, peace and prosperity! May only the very best things come your way in 2018! xoxoxo

[HaWho]

Yes Job, he's struggled this Christmas. And normally he loves this time of year. I took the tree down and he didn't say a word. Remember last year he was sad that I didn't keep it up until February, was it? LOL! Oh, good times those were.

Ownit - I am not facing the paranoia that existed years ago where he thought I was trying to murder him or poison him. (Ugh, I can't believe I just wrote that as I swear if you knew me you'd never believe I'm the sort of person to whom this could happen!) But he's still secretive about really dumb stuff and yet at times he tells me things that years ago he would not divulge. If he's leaving at off hours he now says where he is going. Sadly, I don't much care anymore. I watched him do his disappearing act for so long that I finally just tuned it all out.

Gordie - MIL must know he harbors anger towards her. He exploded at her at Christmas, just a year before he bombed me. I am not sure what story she tells herself each day or what demons she battles. She owes him a serious heart to heart and she's getting up there in years. But she also once told me he was born angry. I don't believe that for a single second. I think that's her way of justifying what she did.

Thanks Bttrfly - Happy New Year to you as well! I tried to post to you but your thread was locked. Sorry to hear about your dad. Hip surgeries have come a long long way. Hope you are holding up okay.

Well, a feather could have knocked me over today. In the AM h announced that he needed some different music as he "couldn't stand" the same stuff anymore. It has been YEARS (yes, years) of him circling through the same series of truly depressing songs. He'd listen to the same 5 depressing songs all day for months. Then he'd change to another 5 depressing songs and listen to those for months. I would have gone crazy the first hour. In fact, I promise you it could be used as an interrogation method. It has been awful. It is wonderful to hear different music. And it only took him 3 years! (This is said with a forehead slap and heaping dose of sarcasm).

I was in s14's room yesterday and saw h wrote a poem for son. It's all about death. It's well written but the theme is quite worn. It's all about how death will win the ultimate struggle. In it he (h) agrees to follow death down a corridor but when h has the chance he turns around and escapes. But he says he knows he won this battle but death will win the war. He also writes that he's not afraid of death but I don't believe that for a second as he practically takes a suitcase worth of vitamins/day. I wish he hadn't shared the poem with s. I wish he could have kept that one under his hat. I wish as a father he knew to protect his son from that kind of thinking.

A few times he has done things that he did not do at all the last few years. Like he is at x place and offers to grab something for the kids on the way back. And sometimes he asks if I want anything. It sounds small but truly, he has not looked beyond his own nose in years.

Today he asked me if I was going to do a few household things that needed to be taken care of. I was curt and said I wasn't sure as I had a lot to do. (I had to clean, do laundry, put all the decorations away and take down the tree). I wanted to ask him "and what exactly are you going to be doing all day? Sitting in your stinky room for the million day?" I am glad I bit my tongue as he said he'd take the boys and take care of it. And he did it. I thanked him. And it was nice to be able to work in a quiet house without distraction. The point is I do see him trying at times now.

But at times he is unbelievable. Last night I picked up pizzas on the way home. The traffic was bad and there was an accident on the highway. It took me forever to get home. And I needed to stop at the store for something as s12 had friends staying for dinner. As I was walking in, I was carrying two pizzas, my purse, two bags of groceries and another bag from work. H just walked right past me (like 1 foot from me) to get something from outside. I practically couldn't even see where I was going over the pizza boxes. Unbelievable.

[HaWho]

Well, h just gave me divorce papers. He has an apartment in place that he rented last month. Maybe he's had it longer and he's just been lying. He wants me to look over the papers, use the same lawyer and just sign. I know he has found someone and that's why there is a big rush.

He wants to tell the kids tonight. He wanted to tell them alone and then have the three of them come to me to support me?!?!? He says it's no big deal and the kids will be just fine so long as I am not there to hear him tell them. I am telling him I want to be there to support them. What a coward.

He says he is the one who is losing out and we 3 will benefit??? He says he's only doing this because he can't take that room anymore. But he's also said it's been bad for 12 years.

KML or Cali - as you are local, do you have the name of a good lawyer?

Also, I will please take all legal advice anyone can give me.

[job]

Well, that may explain his behavior over the holidays.

I am so sorry that he hit you w/those papers today. I have this feeling that he's been planning this for quite some time. Sure you can look over the papers, but I strongly advise you to get your own lawyer and have him/her look them over for you. Take your time w/those papers.

If you haven't already done this...get your accounts separated asap. Start taking photos of the inside of your house because he's going to be sneaking things out w/o asking you about them and you will only discover things gone when you need them. Yes, this does happen quite frequently. I have to wonder how he's planning to fill this apartment w/furniture and where is he getting the money for the security deposit and the first month's rent w/o you being aware of money missing from the accounts or do you already have separate accounts?

Yes, it does sound like he's got someone waiting in the wings. The person may not actually be fully present, but I'm sure he's either got someone or is speaking to someone.

Oh, no! He doesn't get to decide to tell the boys by himself. You definitely need to be there to hear the BS he tells them. It's more like you and the boys will support each other.

Well, I give him credit for one thing...he's the one that is going to lose out big time. You and the boys will be okay...but that man has completely lost the plot if he thinks he's going to be happy out there in the cruel world. I'm glad to see he's admitted he can't stand his dorm room any longer...but that was his choice. He could have lived and shared the entire house w/everyone like a normal human being.

As for the 12 years, please do not drink the Kool Aid he's serving up. You would have known if things were as bad as he stated. If they were that bad, he should have manned up and discussed the situation w/you 12 years ago and not in the last few years.

I know this comes as a shock to you, but maybe it's for the best. He's been "stuck" for quite some time and this just might help him start facing the consequences of his actions. One thing I do know, you and your sons will have a more peaceful home environment and not have to worry about walking around on eggshells.

HaWho, I am here for you, just as everyone else is. Keep the focus on you and your sons and this is now a business deal gone south. Take all the time you need to read over those papers and find a lawyer that can and will represent you. Leave him to his own lawyer.

[Kyh]

I’m so sorry Hawho. The way you’ve handled h and his Mlc is commendable and I’m sorry it came to this. I hope you can find some relief from the mlc madness. Also, I heard most of those things your h said, more Mlc script.

Please take care, will be thinking of you and your boys.

[HaWho]

Thank you Job. Your support means the world to me. Truly.

I am okay, really. He is not well. He has not been well in years. He told me nothing is wrong with him. That he just can't come out of that room because of me? I asked why and he said it's too uncomfortable. I said I feel perfectly comfortable. I think it's his conscience eating at him.

I am just focused on finances and my kids at this point. He thinks it's normal to tell them by himself. And I know what he wants to say to them: "hey, this is all okay. Let's do this without upsetting mom." He hates emotion so he'll force them to "man up." But in the end it's he who is the coward.

He told me this is best for me and he hopes I already have 1 or even 4 or 5 boyfriends I see. Guess I know what he's thinking about.

As for the money, he is sneaky. I know he is. And I bet he has money hidden.

[OwnIt]

HaWho,

I'm so sorry, I think we all wanted to believe that this one would turn out differently, at least in the near term.

I don't focus on this part much, but my H was a stay-at-home wallower for several years until the replay stuff amped up with a job change that put him away a week at a time and in the same hospital with OW1, several hours from home. He became so cruel I had to give him the boot.

Nevertheless, I've always seen a lot of similarity between our Hs. Don't really know why exactly. I guess I believe, rightly or wrongly, that my H struggled and waged an internal battle for a long time trying to "do the right thing." Ultimately, he just wasn't strong enough to do it. I see that with your H too.

I hope it isn't too soon, but I am a silver-linings girl, and I see some for you. Your situation was stuck and needed a change. Although the method is not great, your H is taking that step for all of you. I have very recently found gratitude for my H in doing the same. We were sipping daily doses of poison, and now we can recover.

My son (14) is about the same age as your oldest I think. My D (17) is a little older. I can tell you that both kids struggled mightily the first year. We were supposed to tell them together but he chickened out and ran off. They confronted him on 3 occasions shortly after he was gone and he shut them down in seconds and ran from the house. He has not had a single honest conversation with either of them since. I had to the hard work once again, as I suspect you will.

Mine both struggled academically and my S did some self-harming. I can tell you that one year out, they are both doing great. Much better than H's final years in the home. They are back on top (H academically and D with her talent). We are much closer and much more honest with each other. I have learned the hard way to let them fail and not try to save them or white knuckle the situation.

You are mentally more mature and grounded than I was at this point, so I'm telling you things you likely know, but the better you deal with this, the better your children will. It took me a really long time to get that, but once I did their healing really began.

Mine don't like to talk about him at all. So we don't. Their counselor said this is OK. That they get to own how they process things. D is presently not speaking to H, neither of them answer him, and he is about 3 weeks from his last attempt to see S in person (he didn't even try to see them over the holidays).

I hope that your H will be better. I think mine would be if we lived closer. He still texts them every day I think (something he has done since about Sept. if memory serves). But in the beginning with his women, he disappears pretty completely.

I've learned that when "nice" H shows up, there is something about to happen that is not nice. I understand that is pretty common. I think your H's change in music is attributable to the dopamine rush from the woman. Remember that is all that any of this is about.

I wouldn't be surprised if yours now goes through a pretty hard replay. I think when they repress it for a long time, it is like a roaring tiger. Two years from my discovery of the PA with OW2, I feel like mine is slowing down, although I don't have much insight to his life so it is hard to say for sure.

We are all here for you. I'm not a family law attorney, but have looked into the law in my state anyway quite a bit in preparation for the big show. I recently posted on NicoleR's thread on newcomers what factors I think one should look for in an attorney. I am happy to help out in any way I can.

We are all here for you, but you know that.

[kml]

I don't even remember my attorney's name, and not sure he would be right for your situation. I would transfer half of what's in any joint checking or savings to an account of your own asp. You will also want to file an order for temporary support asap.

This may not affect your boys as much as you think - they may feel relief with his negativity out of the house. And you will be free. Don't be afraid. You did everything you could, you didn't break him and you can't fix him.

[HaWho]

Thanks KYH, Ownit and KML. I appreciate all the support.

Yes Ownit, I too noticed anytime he does something nice something nasty follows. Years ago he would do something nice right before he went out all night long. And last weekend he was being nice and yesterday he offered a lot of help. Guess it was his way of making himself feel better about what he was about to do.

And I know now that yes, something (probably someone) has moved him into not wanting to listen to the depressing music anymore. He was super cheerful yesterday. And today he is humming around the house when he is not in the stinky room. Clearly he is onto greener pastures.

We discussed the last few years and he doesn't remember much though he thinks he does. He downplayed the letter and denied saying much of what he did say. He said he went out all hours of the night because we were "broken up." He says he's been perfectly normal these last few years and feels really happy. He says he's only not happy because of me/when I am around.

He is very, very off. He just walked into the kitchen and said that a certain water bottle was really nice. S14 said to him, "yeah, it's yours." H said "it is?" And s14 said: "yeah, it was my Christmas present to you." H seriously does not remember receiving his one and only gift from s14.

And even weirder the other day h could not get the right answer to a simple math problem. I told him the right answer and he said no. He went into the stinky room and came out several minutes later sticking to the same answer. I took a calculator and did the very simple math. He said it still did not make sense?!? He's been lost a long while. The way he is acting reminds me a lot of his fuzziness in the early days post BD when he would get lost all he time and not remember anything.

Anyway, KML, Ownit and Job, thank you for reassuring me that this may be best. He's depressed and has no idea. Actually for myself I am ready. I know he has lost the plot and I think there will be greater peace without him here. But I am worried about the financial part of the d as he's quite sneaky these days. And most importantly, I just hope my kids survive and thrive through this. I think s14 may not be too surprised. S12 I think is going to take this very, very hard.

[Gordie]

HaWho,

You are a rock. When you say you are ready...I believe you!

I’m sorry this is what it is today...but as you say he is quite lost. And frankly, given his behavior there may be relief at some point for the kids but also longing for “a normal” dad, as I have heard it.

I hope for a smooth process for you.

(((HaWho)))

[kml]

Make copies of last few years tax returns and the last years bank statements and any other financial records you might need.

Also - do you suspect him of doing any drugs? Can you search his room for any evidence? Take photos of anything weird?

[HaWho]

Thanks Gordie and KML.

Well, he's all over the map. Last night I pointed out son has finals in two weeks and asked if he could wait until afterwards. He wrote and said wait as long as you need. This morning he wants to tell them tonight and be out in 2 weeks, during son's first finals of high school. So selfish.

He is back to agreeing to wait until after the exams IF I take care of the papers today. He has asked me 3 times to do it today. Clearly he is thirsty for OW. I imagine he needs to not be living with his wife for this charming gal. And I know he wants me not to think about any of it.

I have not answered. And advice on how to? He is delusional and thinks this is going to be sown up yesterday. Still has no clue that I intend to talk to my own lawyer.

And KML - I have no idea as he locks his door 24/7. So I need to call the accountant and ask for copies of the last two years worth. The problem is he is super sneaky with money. Like I know he had swapped out a significant amount of cash for gold a while back. I think he's been preparing for this for some time.

Today he told me I am lucky he is giving me more that half. I am not sure I believe this as I believe he could hide assets. And he told he's using a fair lawyer. And now he's squeezing me to sign or he tells the kids sooner. And I have it all on text. His birthday is in a few weeks and something tells me he has plans.

[Gordie]

Seems like yours is rushing and mine is slowing things down. The common theme for all is they want it on their timing but it doesn’t have to work that way. You too can make this go as fast or as slow as you want. If you want to be friendly about it just say that this is a significant matter and that you need time to consult a L and think through all of the issues. Don’t let him rush you or push you into something you don’t want. Ask him to put together copies of all financial documents for you and your L to review. If you want to be unfriendly...

[Pax_luv]

Oh gosh, so sorry it has come to this HaWho. I know we were all hoping the sitch would turn out differently for you and your family. Though I can't help but think that you and your boys are deserving of so much more. You've built a solid life even in the midst of the craziness. With him gone and you free from your marriage contract, I predict that your strength and grace will continue to propel the 3 of your forward while your MLCer will remain stuck.

Regarding finances.... Stay on top of this. I pray pray pray pray that he isn't as sneaky as you're predicting because it just makes the ordeal so much more convoluted. The money my ex siphoned was in the 6 figure range and more things get uncovered about every 10 days. I dont wish this experience on anyone. Hopefully your mlcer has been too loopy to be this crafty.

[job]

HaWho,

You've been at this a long time and you know exactly what I'm going to say and my comments are all in agreement w/the other posters.

1. Separate the finances asap. Take half out of the accounts and move the money to an account in your name only.

2. Change any passwords that you have to your accounts that he may have the authority to see and/or use.

3. Check your credit report.

4. Keep a close eye on your credit cards and you may even want to think about getting a new card in your name and/or finding a way to remove his from your cards.

5. Make copies of all financial records and keep them in a safe place, preferably a friend's place for the time being.

6. File separately this year.

7. Be sure to call around for a good lawyer.

8. Do an electronic search on line to see what your state says about support, etc.

9. Once he leaves, separate phone plans, utilities, etc.

10. Make sure you are there the day he moves out. You don't want him helping himself to things that you and your sons may need w/o asking.

He definitely has something going on and his replay behavior is going to take off like a rocket once he's gone. The euphoria of thinking he's got his own place and he's free to do whatever he wants w/o "mom" watching and making comments is just going to send him over the moon w/happiness for a while...but he's going to discover later on that life still comes w/responsibilities.

[HaWho]

Thank you guys.

Job, I have the list. Thank you.

I think you and all are right. I think he's going to hit replay hard this time. He is acting COMPLETELY crazy. He is badgering me to go sign that I agree to start the process and that I acknowledge his discourse of assets. He's all over me. I told him not today. He said he's going to serve me on Wednesday. He is on fire. Then after hen pecking me to death he said the lawyer called and the papers aren't even ready.

He says the papers are to acknowledge assets and start the process. Does this mean I agree to his assets? He says no. Is this just a typical first step? Do I see a lawyer even before this? He said if I don't go and sign he'll serve me and it'll embarrass me. I am in meetings all day today and just beginning with thinking about lawyers.

He is funny. He told me he is being generous giving me 50% but that is what I am legally entitied to! I already read that. And I am probably entitled to more as I was a stay at home mom for so long. Oh, and then he said he is going to let me keep my jewelry. I already saw that those are legally mine, too, as they were gifts.

And yes, he does want to use the same lawyer and he's squeezing me so hard to sign. He is on a bullet train. It is scary to watch.

[job]

OMG! He is all over the darn place. The stinking odors from the dorm room have finally gotten to him.

I've never heard of reviewing an asset division before papers have been prepared, reviewed and negotiated, but I guess it depends up on where you are living. You can do all of the reviewing you want, just don't agree to anything until a lawyer has looked them over. Do not let him know that you know what you are entitled to and what your rights are. Let him spill his guts and then you will have a good idea where his head is at. Also, make sure you get your share of his retirement, any 401K Accounts, CD's, etc. You have several choices on how those funds can come to you: lump sum at the time of the divorce, over a period of time, or when he retires. You can roll the money up into an IRA for your future.

Be sure you get what your children are entitled to as well. You will need to determine who will claim the boys on their taxes this year and in future years.

Anything you brought into the marriage (prior to saying I do) is yours, as well as any gifts that were made directly to you too.

Do not allow this crazy man to bully you into signing something you aren't ready to sign.

[AndrewP]

HaWho - Absolutely get your own lawyer. I don't know about your jurisdiction but here for a separation agreement to be binding each party needs to have independent legal representation.

It's a bit sneaky but you may want to consider getting a credit report done on him as well to keep under your hat.

One thing to think about as well is custody schedules etc plus the boy's futures. It's not a given but having it in the agreement about college and related expenses would be a good bit of foresight.

[kml]

Do not sign ANYTHING without having your own attorney review it. And no, you don't use the same lawyer. If you had no assets and no children and no alimony, maybe then you could use one attorney. But not when you have property and kids to divide.

Make it clear to him that you are totally willing and not dragging your feet, but that you will not sign anything without reviewing it with your attorney first "just to make sure everything is right". Stick to that boundary. You can sign that you received papers to avoid the hassle of being served but nothing more. The

[mm2bs]

I don't post much anymore here about my situation, but still read and follow others religiously. You HaWho are doing a fantastic job! My BD was right around the same time as your first one, but my H left shortly thereafter...then filed for divorce in late 2015. We are still not divorced!

I was not a good DBer in terms of my saving my marriage. I begged, tried to reason with him ad nauseum and spied on him way way too much the first few years. But the one thing I think I did right was take my time. He wanted the divorce and wanted to rush it. I didn't, so I took my time. You seem to already know this, but please don't agree to anything you don't want out of confusion or fear. The entire divorce process is exhausting.

I was served through certified mail (not sure if it's different in your area) but your H threatening embarrassment through being served seems to me to be a scare tactic.

My H threatened court for custody issues...but I kept waiting and pushing, not agreeing, but countering and we finally ended up with an agreement I can live with without court.

It seems like you have already done some homework, so my only advice is don't listen to your H and act on your own timeline. In my experience nothing happens quickly in the legal system without mutual consent.

FYI...I also got the line "we should use the same lawyer...it'll be cheaper and quicker". I think that's standard script. We both have our own lawyers now. It's not cheaper, but I feel much safer for me and my kids.

[kml]

Oh - and do not agree to anything verbally. Just say you will consider it and discuss it with your attorney.

[OwnIt]

HaWho,

I'm sure you are dealing with tremendous amounts of shock and fear right now. I could give you lots of suggestions for proceeding, but I'm concerned that it could be overwhelming.

I think you need to focus on the basics:

1. Do not make any decisions when you are overwhelmed, afraid, numb, etc.

2. Do not give a bully (and that is how he is behaving) the satisfaction of fearing his threats. He may chicken out in telling the children, the children likely suspect something has been brewing and will at some level be better with it in the open, or if he does tell them and does so in a rushed manner as he is threatening, the kids will see the mess going on there. You are their rock. Forget what he says and how. It is you they will respond to. If you take away the leverage he has in your fear of telling the children, then his threats are nothing.

3. Do not fear being served. If there is shame or humiliation attached, it belongs solely to him.

4. Whatever is motivating this rapid cycling and demands will wane relatively quickly if not satisfied.

5. Do NOTHING without talking to your own lawyer. Find a specialist in family law (look on the American College of Matrimonial Lawyers website) or contact the state bar for your state and ask if they have a certification program for family law attorneys. You do not want someone who also does criminal, civil, etc. You want someone not too young or too old. Not too experienced (pricey) or too inexperienced. At least 5 years in the practice area. Find someone from a small to mid-size firm. You don't want a situation where you have a partner supervising a newbie. You'll have the high biller and the work will be done by the newbie.

Ask who will do the work on your case and make sure you meet them and like them. Find someone who believes in attempting to resolve cases out of court, but is prepared to go to trial if that is not possible. You don't want someone "out for blood" that will push you to litigate everything.

Please secure the assets (as in transferring your part of joint funds) and then move at your pace. In my state a contested divorce lasts 1-2 years. A lot can happen in that time. A red, hot burning affair will generally burn out before then.

It may not be possible right now, but think about what you want. Do you want the divorce now? Do you not know and want to buy time while you make up your mind? Are you prepared to endure several years of a heavy replay? If you know you want a divorce and won't change your mind, move forward with all alacrity. If you aren't sure, hire an attorney you like and trust and let him do the heavy lifting on his divorce while you give yourself time and distance to make the best decisions for you and the boys (because he just can't do that right now).

I know it is scary, but it is going to be OK. You DO NOT have to do this at his pace.

If he tells the boys, he tells them. But do not allow this to be a source of bullying. Contact the school and talk to the guidance counselor and express some concern about the exams and whether he can take them later or everyone can assess his situation before that decision is made.

What grade is the oldest son in? If it is 8th grade, then honestly the grades don't even matter. Better he should know and start getting through the processing. My S had a horrible year last year for 8th, but has pulled it back together for 9th.

You have to take the time now. When anyone forces you into a pressure sell, you know you are getting a bad deal. If nothing else, why help him with the OW and whatever it is that is motivating the need for speed.

We are all here for you.

[HaWho]

Thank you all so very, very much. You guys are amazing.

Pax - I am worried this one will go as yours has. He is all over me to sign. 5 texts today all saying what a great deal it is and how generous he's being. Umm, are you throwing in some swamp land from Florida, too?

Finally I told him no more texts; emails only. Thanks Sotto! Four of those emails followed: papers are ready at x time, this lawyer is good/only $3500 total, oh, we can't use the same lawyer and office closes at 5:00 FYI.

I ignored them all.

KML and Andrew - thanks! Yep, we don't use the same lawyer. And I am not agreeing to anything.

MM2bs - thanks for that wonderful post! You are too hard on yourself. I did a lot of that stuff, too. None of it matters as you can't stop them. They are completely irrational. I wish you had posted more. It must have been hard to go through all that. I hope you had some support in real life?

I know he'll gaslight me: you are greedy for wanting your own lawyer. He already started: don't make this hard for the kids by being there when I tell them. Meanwhile he wants to move out finals week.

Own it - thank you, thank you and thank you! It helps so much to hear it from a lawyer. I will research tonight.

Also, Ownit, I am ready for this. It's not what I want but he's exhausted his options here and needs that apartment. He's said so since day 1. He always talked about his apartment in his 20's and I think he's going right back there. He is excited. A few times he said his childhood home was like his apartment. It reminds me of early replay how excited he was to run all around. He has someone. I know he does. And he'll work his issues out in her. It's time for that. Or maybe he'll live happily ever after.

Honestly, I don't see us r. This next replay will take him 2 or 3 years min. That is optimistic. Then all the other stages. From start to finish it'll be a decade of his life, easily. He was in anger back in 2012. And he's a slow burner.

I want to get through this and close the door on this chapter of my life. I want to support my kids through it. And then I want peace and quiet.

[HaWho]

Sorry for yet another post but wait til you hear this one. Finally had the courage to open the papers h gave me last night because my sister wanted to know what lawyer h was using. Thank God for my sister who is so good at this stuff.

Anyway, h wrote the "instructions" himself. He actually calls them instructions. I can tell he wrote them because it's his voice, completely not legal sounding and he always misspells "dining room" "dinning room." And he references the "dinning room." In the custody section he actually writes that the dog will go here on these days and there on those days. Let's say the dog is named Fido. Then he ACTUALLY writes: "Fido has no choice. He's a dog."

And at one point he actually begins speculating on when he'll die and this is IN THE DOCUMENT!

And it's all completely irrational. He asks philosophical questions. Let's say h's name is Brad. He'll say "why should Brad have to pay this portion?" Umm that is a question for your lawyer not something you speculate on in the text of a "legal document."

I am laughing so hard. His lawyer must think he's nuts. A 6th grader could make it sound better.

No wonder he is desperate to have me sign it. He WROTE it. I think mine is the craziest one on these boards. He is nuts!

Last night I did not sleep; I was so worried he got the best lawyer and it was going to be top notch. Tonight I'll sleep. Wait 'til I bring this to a real lawyer.

[OwnIt]

That reminds me, when I found out about OW1 he said we should divorce and not tell the kids, and he would move out of state and come and stay in the house when he wanted to come back and see them. I told him he was nuts. He repeatedly told me that I was blowing up all of our lives and the fallout would be on me. These people are so messed up.

Since you feel done and have been at this so long and know what it looks like from here, my suggestion is to find a lawyer and push it through quickly (on your terms).

Doubtless he will get scared and do the MLC-stall. You will have to be the one to steer to the finish. The faster you move, the cheaper it will be. Also, he is much more likely to be reasonable if you get it done early in the infatuation zone (both of my family law attorney pals stressed this). Because mine split with OW1 only 3 weeks after move-out, I couldn't get there. I pushed when I found out about OW2, but he wasn't having any of it.

Do assume that he has been prepping this for a long time and has money you don't know about and ask for much more than you are entitled to.

[devvo]

I can't believe your MLCers are so crazy HaWho and OwnIt! My XH is positively sane compared to your two weirdos.

Agree that getting the financial settlement done quickly is preferable, but not at such a pace as to cause distress to you HaWho. My XH is still jerking me around with our settlement, but now that the divorce has been granted, I have some bandwidth to concentrate on getting it done - as much as I hate doing it!

It irks me that were our marriages considered to be contractually binding business arrangements, and our XH's reneged on all promises, they would most likely be ordered to pay all legal costs once they'd been found to have been in breach. In our cases, the 'no fault' divorce principle has done us few favours. To me it seems a bit unfair to be expected to pay emotionally and financially for what can be seen as the completely irrational actions of somebody else.

[AndrewP]

Last night I did not sleep; I was so worried he got the best lawyer and it was going to be top notch. Tonight I'll sleep. Wait 'til I bring this to a real lawyer.

Don't underestimate him. I thought that my ex was going with one particular lawyer that I wasn't too worried about but then she showed up with the toughest bulldog in the county. She got good advice somewhere on that. I'm still not sure how she managed to pay the bill but I expect that she had "help" on that.

[bttrfly]

you can also hire a forensic accountant. in fact i suggest you do that immediately as he has always exhibited sneakiness around finances. you have to think of yourself and your boys.

{{{{{{{HaWho}}}}}}}
I'm sorry honey.

Protect yourself and the boys.

I"m sorry that you're going through this. I agree that you're ready - far more ready than most and frankly I think you're far more ready than stbxh.

xoxoxoxoxo

[job]

I agree w/the others, strike while the iron is hot. Right now, he wants out desperately, so give it to him on your own terms. Ask for a higher settlement in order to negotiate. When they want out in the early stages, they are more likely to give away the ocean view in Tucson, Arizona (no view), just to get rid of you and the awful situation that they think they are in.

I do think he's been putting money aside for this exit for quite some time. It may not have been a lot, but he's been hiding funds little by little.

As for the paperwork you read last night...that lawyer should be ashamed of himself/herself. The lawyer has to be very much aware that he's lost the plot and is going to soak him for everything he's got and then some because he/she knows how this will go down. Then, most likely, later on, the lawyer is going to tell him to find someone else to represent him.

The lawyer sounds so much like the one that I took on that my xh had. She found out that I wasn't crazy like my xh and just before we went to court to have the divorce decree documents, signed and sealed, she bailed on him and he had to get a lawyer from another firm. Yep, another firm. But, in the end, he was so desperate to get out of the marriage, I challenged him on a large sum of money in his IRA and I got it right there in the court room.

Yes, he's ready to move into his own place. It's taken him quite a while to get to this point, but this may help him figure things out about his life...but that will not be your problem to fix. However, I have this feeling he's still going to be around your home and sending you a lot of messages even if he's moved out. You will need to set some boundaries and really stick to them. You will need to advise your sons not to share our business w/him, because he is going to ask them about you, who you are seeing, etc. They all do it. But that is later down the road.

Run, do not walk, to the best lawyer in town. It will be well worth every penny and advise that lawyer you aren't playing around and want this done as quickly as possible and not have it drawn out, i.e., costing you lots of money.

[Gordie]

HaWho,

That is a wacky document. I thought my stbx was bad when she gave me a cut and paste settlement to “sign right now” that still had portions clearly written for another couple. When I confronted her, she said she hadn’t read it. My L has also warned me that her L may fire her as a client because she has been so wacky which will only draw things out further. Godspeed.

[bttrfly]

Go back further than 2 years on the tax documents. In fact go back at least two years before BD1 ... You're looking for financial trends, etc. Please consider hiring a forensic accountant. I firmly believe you will need one as I do not trust your H at all.

It's best he moves out quickly. Lock down all assets as have been noted by other posters.

This is now a business that is dissolving. Separate the emotion out of it as much as you can.

Focus on what YOU want and what you think you'll need moving forward. Protect your boys in case he decides to create family #2 - or #3 or #4 - the best deal is the one you're going to negotiate for your kids and yourself.

He has given you a great gift by breaking the stalemate. MOVE ON IT.

[job]

One more thing, since your sons are still young and school, you may want to negotiate living in the current house until they have graduated from high school. However, that may not be something you want to do, so discuss this option w/a lawyer as well.

[kml]

This document may be a gift. If you ever need to prove H is not competent - this could go a long ways towards proving it!

Really, he does sound mentally ill or drug addled. Are you mysteriously running short of spoons? Are there little bits of tinfoil or empty whipped cream canisters in his trash?

[kml]

As for financial issues with divorce. Yes, get all the financial records you can and look to see if there is a suspicious pattern. (Frankly, he sounds too mentally incompetent to have done much that would be hard to find, but who knows - maybe he's got Fort Knox in that room!)

I would recommend getting as much of the settlement up front as you can. You have no idea whether he'll still be capable of working in the future, so a bird in the hand is better. If you would be due spousal support, try to get a lump sum buyout instead. Make sure there is life insurance on him to cover child support and other payments, and pay the premium yourself to make sure he doesn't let it lapse. If you can't afford to buy him out of the house, it is fairly common to draft an agreement where you and the boys stay in the house, split costs and then sell and split the equity when the boys graduate high school. This is not right for everyone but it's an option.

If he does end up paying you spousal support insist on an automatic draft from his paycheck.

If you can get him to agree to help pay for college, get it. My ex insisted on it (even though both lawyers were against the idea) and the irony is, it was likely HIM not me who would have flaked on the kids' college expenses without this agreement.

[HaWho]

Thank you all so very much.

The gaslight info has begun. Today an angry spew email telling me that he and his lawyer believe I am being hostile as h has now learned that I requested copies of tax returns.

He tells me either I have to make a decision or this will be hostile. And either I am doing this with him or against him by 9PM tonight or I won't exist to him after tonight.

Any suggestions on how to phrase it that I am having a lawyer look at this? I think Gordie mentioned saying this is a significant decision and I need to review everything. I am worried that h will take this as hostile as he is so angry right now.

I want to try a very innocent approach and see is that calms him down. He wants to do this all on our own. How do I tell him I am having a lawyer look it over. He is going to freak. He is so irrational. He thinks I shouldn't contact a lawyer.

[AndrewP]

(Hopefully) Stupid question. Do you have a safe place you could go to quickly with the boys?

Realistically, you can say that you don't understand things and that you want to be sure that you don't make mistakes with the biggest decision of your life. You wouldn't buy a new lawnmower without carefully checking your options much less something this significant. It's not just you two here. You both need to consider the boys and their future.

Also - it is the case (at least here) that an agreement where both sides haven't received independent legal advice is more likely to not hold up in court if circumstances change and it would cost both far more in legal fees unless things are done carefully. Lawyers love "kitchen table agreements" helps pay for their toys.

Because I always have the poorly timed joke there's the old one about divorce lawyer in office-towers. So they can see the boat they just bought with the fees you paid them (apologies to the lawyers present).

And - if 9:00 rolls around and he explodes - point to the door. And have a safe friend handy. Just feeling paranoid.

[Ginger1]

Oh HAwho,

So what if he freaks? All he does is verbally freak, via email and is too much of a coward to do anything else.

Do not be blackmailed or bullied by him. You do not have to walk on eggshells with him anymore. This man is so far from his right mind.

I would not work with him. He is completely irrational. I would get YOUR lawyer to draft something up, because what is on his papers is crazy.

Quite honestly, tell him no more than "Your lawyer can speak to my lawyer"

You cannot reason with crazy.

I am so sorry. Your resolve to make it this long is commendable. You have been a rock for so long, now is not the time to let him bully you. Now is the time t so stop tiptoing around and doing what you need to be done, regardless if he will "freak". Did you move money yet? I sure hope so.

[kml]

I like the comment above about telling him it's important to make sure the agreement sticks that you have had outside counsel.

Also present your response to him as if you are in just as big a hurry to get it done as him.

"H, I'm really interested in getting this done. I want to make sure that there are no errors so that we don't get stuck with any confusion or mistakes. I will be seeing an attorney to review this on (Friday, tomorrow, this afternoon). Rest assured I want to move this process along expeditiously and am not trying to drag anything out."

[kml]

BTW - what kind of assets are we talking about here? House should be pretty straightforward if you bought it together - either sell and split equity or an arrangement to live in it until the boys finish high school as discussed above.

Retirement plans - if you have any pensions or defined benefit plans, you need a QDRO to divide them properly, unless they are of equivalent value and you keep yours and he keeps his. 401Ks and IRAs should be divided evenly if they were accumulated during the marriage.

Child support and spousal support are usually by formula. If your incomes are roughly the same there may not be either IF he goes fo 50% custody.

Anything else to consider in your finances? Any special situations? How much debt do you have (credit card or other?)

[Ginger1]

Ok, I really like KML's response.

[bttrfly]

Well, I am probably not the best to weigh in here, so I will keep my personal thoughts to myself and advise that you follow your instincts in your dealings with him.

know that at some point it will most likely get nasty. doesn't mean it will remain so.

I don't think you necessarily have to tell him anything. you could say this is a shock and you're trying to get your bearings. stall for time.

[kml]

But you don;t want HIM to think you're stalling - that will only ramp him up more. So use some emotional aikido and convince him that you are equally eager to get this done. Then you can let your lawyer handle things once you have a plan.

[bttrfly]

^^^^ this. yes!!! xoxoxo

[job]

HaWho,

I would gently respond to him and say that you've not been given ample time to review the document and you need to retain a lawyer and allow him/her to review it as well and once that is done, then your lawyer will advise his lawyer of what your concerns are.

You can also state that you do not want any costly mistake to be made which will cost even more in out of pocket expenses. If he gets to be too much, advise him that you will not be bullied into signing anything without legal counsel and he needs to stop threatening you because you are just as eager to get this over and done with as he is...but it's going to be done with proper counsel reviewing it and advising both parties as to what is acceptable.

Besides, no one wants to sign a document that is just plain childish and irrational and being bullied to do so. That is attempting to get you to sign a document under duress and that isn't something anyone wants to sign. His lawyer knows this...I wonder if his lawyer thinks you are as irrational as he is.

All of his posturing makes me think he's hiding something and doesn't want you to know about it. I swear, I would have to point blank ask him what is the rush and who is she just to see what his reaction would be.

If he gets to be too much, take the boys and go somewhere else tonight. You do not have to listen to that BS and I would not respond to any more of his text/phone or email messages for now. The more you respond, the more he's going to ramp up. He thinks he's got control over the situation. He doesn't....you do, so take your time w/it and get a good lawyer.

Also, it's time to start a new thread.