Four weeks ago my wife of 19 years hits me with this "I'm not happy and want to separate...". Four years ago I caught her in an EA. I was devastated and pitiful. My discovery was a traumatic episode and I let everyone know, wife, couples counselor, individual counselor. I caught her two more times during the next year. During all this counseling, she finally stopped and things got better. Several apologies etc. Several of the problems that were discovered were never really worked out. Communication on her part. Her personal baggage etc. I had my share too.
3 years later and I go on a 3 day weekend for R&R, I invited her and she said she wanted to stay in town as our teens had stuff going on. My 2 girls went away that Saturday and I urged her to come up. She declined, citing a headache. Well, I return Sunday evening and she hits me with it. Familiar reasons and behavior and I immediately suspect cheating again. No real reasons and lack of any logic. I confronted her in the most productive way I could and she denied and cried and said I would always suspect that. I have done some prying around and have yet to find real evidence. (they get better at it) Still, several things seem suspicious and I have to trust my heart.
Being a reader I dug into the sites like this and discovered the 180 turn around so often discussed. It instantly made sense and I have, though not perfectly, applied it. I am different this time, much more strong and confident, though not in the distress I was last time. No, I don't know for sure but the suspicion has been right in the past. Before the first time, I trusted this woman like I have never trusted before. I would have never thought she was capable of cheating. Well, here's the catch. After less than a week of 180 she has moved closer. She has initiated dinner together without the kids. No real date but still alone. I asked about sex and she said "yes, but this doesn't change things..". July 4th after her Bible study we are to go watch fireworks together, no kids.
I agreed to go but am now here wondering if that was a good move. We began a written discussion a few days ago about what she thought this Separation would look like. Lenth, rules, who would go stuff like that. I was factual on my answers and only expressed my dissatisfaction as it affected me as a person. She had written that she didn't see how it could ever work and I added if that is the case, I didn't see how any 90 day separation would be productive and my wish would be to get started my healing. She hasn't brought it up again for several days and was nice and attentive. I am limiting my words. (A challenge as I do most of the talking). We went on a family vacation and she was nicer than usual. This was all before discovering this group. We had sex a few times and I now realize it was a mistake. The suspicion has been maddening and I have done my share of snooping. My intent is once I confirm I will end it with D. Well, against the rules, on her initiation, I engaged in an R conversation. Bottom line is that if I am not willing to S is she ready to D? She in her often put off way said she wanted to think about it and could she let me know later that night. That was last night. Well she didn't bring it up and as much as I wanted to I resisted the urge to force the issue. As I started to slip into twilight she said do you want to discuss now or in the morning. There was no way I could wait and I said now. She said that with my interest in mind (yea, right) she was ready to let me go. At first I just listened emotionless and eventually started to ask questions. I said she should file ASAP and she said she would. Of course, in all her contemplation she hasn't thought out telling the kids etc.
I moved to the couch and in the morning she was very nice and even intentionally kissed me goodbye for the day. I now realize all the mistakes I have made.
My question that I haven't found from reading these many Newcomer threads is this. If I still suspect there is some type of A going on, should I proceed as if there is or just a WAW until my suspicions are confirmed?
Thx in advance. This group is invaluable.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Thank you, Cadet. So much to digest while applying. I don't know that I could have followed the rules had I already lived through it once before. Human nature is so counter intuitive in these matters.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Good advice. Nothing worse than a WW that feels she is getting fixed.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
My urgent question is since she is denying an A, should I move out of the bedroom? She isn't going and asking will be hostile. Violation of the rules.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Well, the bad news is that most situations involve an ea, pa or ia so reasonable to assume one of these as your wife has done that before and that is what your suspect.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie, I believe you are correct. The not knowing is maddening. When a W starts acting completely out of character, BDs and is vague about reasons only sighting that they are surprised that you never saw it coming, odds are they are under the spell.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Are you trying to save your marriage? If she is in some sort of affair, is it over for you?
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Good question. As discussed elsewhere the at stages for the LBH and right now I guess it depends. If I gave a definitive answer, who knows if I would feel the same tomorrow.
Last night she seemed quite sad. I think the weight of dropping the D has started to set in. We sat in bed and I tried to respond to the TV so that I didn't seem to be sulking. She was quiet.
I usually make and bring coffee. Today I made it but she can get used to getting it herself.
The plot thickens, as they say. Right now I am committed to 180 and detachment.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
If you go all the way through all the LBS threads, there are a list of rules. Here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551824#Post2551824 Check out #10. Its done now, but in the past you should have insisted on transparency and then you would know whether she is in an A or not. If she brings up the R conversation again (only if SHE does), then I'd casually mention how this seems eerily similar to when she had an A and ask if she is having one.
Prior to reading threads about Affairs, I was inclined to think the same thing as you. I'm not so sure now. Obviously you call though. Anyway, the rules arer a little different with an A, so I'd keep trying to see if she is in one. My sitch is very complicated, but if she is only a WAW its harder to figure out how to act IMO.
Me 51, Wife 44; Married 4; Together 10; HSD20, XWSD13, XWSS14, XWSS17 Kids Together D4, D1.52 W Moves Out: 03/16/17 W Files : 03/17/17 D Final: 10/23/17
I hear ya KGuy. Being that is my 2nd go round I am a different person now. The first time I was so glad to feel things being put back together that I took short cuts, made concessions. Well, there is a reason for these rules. I get it.
I have not seen it yet, but what are the rules on social media? Block her? Back off and post as if GAL?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Tobias, you are correct. I believe the key is to know yourself. If sex will make you believe things have turned, you may be fooling yourself. I was a pathetic hurt LBH the first time around. I compared my reaction to PTSD. I had triggers and panic attacks. Sex was a lifesaver, or so I thought. What do they call it Frantic Mating? I thought it was a sign that she still had feelings and it would all work out. What I now know, it that it made her believe that she could keep me and continue the EA.
Well, not this time. I am in control of me. Because of this group, I have learned that my situation is not so unique. My gosh, you would believe that it is a major epidemic, WAWs. People like Sandi and Cadet are a godsend because trying to figure it out on your own is near impossible.
I realize I may be over intellectualizing, but right now that's where I am. In order to not accept less, you have to make absolutes while the head is clear. Decide what is allowed and what is not. These are your rules and stick to them.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
During all this counseling, she finally stopped and things got better. Several apologies etc. Several of the problems that were discovered were never really worked out. Communication on her part. Her personal baggage etc. I had my share too.
What personal baggage are you referring to? What about communication, what are the problems there? These sound like some very serious issues that you just kind of breezed past. Usually when someone engages in an EA they are doing it because something is missing in the M. What do you think she was getting out of an EA that she was missing in the M? How can you do a 180 on that?
Quote:
Well, I return Sunday evening and she hits me with it. Familiar reasons and behavior and I immediately suspect cheating again. No real reasons and lack of any logic. I confronted her in the most productive way I could and she denied and cried and said I would always suspect that. I have done some prying around and have yet to find real evidence. (they get better at it) Still, several things seem suspicious and I have to trust my heart.
Well you have to ask yourself if knowing versus not knowing matters to you. Early in my sitch I had suspicions, but I didn't know one way or the other (in fact 5 years later I still don't know). Some of the people here told me the same thing- would you change your DBing if you knew she was in an A and I decided that no, I wouldn't. So I let go of my need to know because it really didn't matter, she was two feet out the door no matter what. So ask yourself, and if you need to know then get serious about it and hire a PI. If you're going to DB regardless then let go of it.
Quote:
Before the first time, I trusted this woman like I have never trusted before. I would have never thought she was capable of cheating
Before BD I trusted my W unconditionally. BD blew my mind, I never saw it coming. My point is your sitch is a breach of trust and faith regardless of whether she's having an A or not. She committed to you for life, now she is rescinding her commitment without warning. Really tough to rebuild trust after that. Most people in piecing never do fully trust their spouse again, they keep the walls up a little (or a lot).
Quote:
Well, here's the catch. After less than a week of 180 she has moved closer.
Too soon to see any changes. WASs run hot and cold, it's important not to read too much into their actions when they're running hot. This is a long, long journey you're on.
Quote:
I am limiting my words. (A challenge as I do most of the talking).
One of my favorite sayings people use around here is "drink a tall cool glass of STFU", LOL! Learn to be quiet and listen. If she doesn't talk much then just be quiet.
Quote:
We had sex a few times and I now realize it was a mistake.
This subject comes up here, and I think it's talked about in DR as well. As a rule there's nothing wrong with continuing to have sex as long as you don't attach any expectations to it.
Quote:
I said she should file ASAP and she said she would.
Your goal isn't to pressure her and force her to do things, it's to REMOVE all pressure. Back off and give her time and space.
Quote:
My question that I haven't found from reading these many Newcomer threads is this. If I still suspect there is some type of A going on, should I proceed as if there is or just a WAW until my suspicions are confirmed?
Hopefully I answered that above, but the bottom line is whether it matters to you. If you found out there isn't an A, what would your approach be? If there is an A, would it be different?
Your situation bears many similarities to mine. My exW had a string of EA's and I eventually caught her in the last one. After that I got the ILYBINILWY, BD, set on divorce, etc. etc. I was able to DB and we reconciled and had another three years together at which point, like you, I suspected something was up, caught her at it again with a new coworker and got divorced.
You and others have come here lately referring to "The 180" and talking about it as if it means walking away from their spouse and giving them space. From my read of MWD's books, "180" refers to evaluating your spouse's complaints about you, deciding which you want to remedy and then addressing them -- i.e. if you used to be sloppy be neat. Not super important but I'm not sure where this new interpretation is coming from because people now seem to think it means "don't pursue".
Regarding your situations, no radar is as fine-tuned as that of a cheated-on spouse, so I would say if your radar is telling you something is up, it probably is.
Does it matter though in the context that she wants to separate and/or wants out? If another person is involved or not, the facts of your relationship are the same.
I think the prescription is the same no matter what: don't pursue her, address your own issues (180), get a life, and act as if you're fine.
In the case of my exW, her needs were not being met in our marriage -- it was a classic "Five Love Languages" challenge where we were sending and receiving on different channels and weren't aware of it. Unfortunately, she chose not to voice any complaints or articulate any desires, perhaps in the interest of avoiding conflict. As a result, her resentments built to the point that she sought an EA and felt justified in doing so. I think at that point she was pretty checked out.
When we then reconciled, I think it was the path of least resistance, or something she felt she was doing for the benefit of the kids and the family and her EA had ended. I don't believe she was committed to the M at that point, so really it was just a stay of execution versus a real reconciliation.
I consider that to be a blessing for me, because I got three good years to be the best H I could be, to "bring it", and to leave the marriage with no regrets about my behavior or my contribution to it, I was able to leave with a great degree of peace. Hopefully you've had the same experience since your W's last EA.
If she's walked several times before and wants to walk again, chances are these are her issues that she doesn't want to address that you may or may not be exacerbating, and she doesn't believe in her heart that she can navigate back to "happy" with you.
As you probably know, the only way she's going to overcome that deeply held belief is for you to open the cage door and completely cut her free. If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:
1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value 2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone 3) She's willing to work to win you
Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.
Given that you have to make things worse before they can possibly get better, separation may not be a bad choice, but I would advise pursuing a separation with the same rules you would have if you were divorced, which is to say that you don't continue to comingle your lives (aside from the kids) and you are free to live your own lives without social accountability to the other person.
That way she can really see if that way of life is better or worse for her. Prepare yourself that in the beginning she will view it as better, mainly because she'll find new found freedom and has convinced herself that its what she wants. It may take six months or two years for reality to set in, but it certainly will.
My advice would be to lean in to what she wants, agree to separate, and work productively with her on the plan with the presentation that you're on board and plan to enjoy this change also. That's going to make her wonder. You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Okay, my understanding of the 180 is that it is a measure to startle the WAS out of their A Fog. Get their attention if you wish. Here are the rules as I discovered. It is not the only thing that you need to do but it will be noticed and hopfully break the trance. If you have not experienced this Fog Trance I doubt you would understand. Until this fog has lifted you are wasting your time trying to meet her needs.
The 180
1. Don’t pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Don’t point out “good points” in marriage.
4. Don’t follow her/him around the house.
5. Don’t encourage or initiate discussion about the future.
6. Don’t ask for help from the family members of your wayward partner.
7. Don’t ask for reassurances.
8. Don’t buy or give gifts.
9. Don’t schedule dates together.
10. Don’t keep saying, “I Love You!” Because if you really think about it, he/she is, at this particular moment, not very loveable.
11. Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!
12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.
13. Don’t sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!
14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue, no matter how much you want to!
15. If you’re in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.
16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that “they (the wayward partner)” are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life…without them!
17. Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.
18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around, not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self-assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.
19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!
20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control. YOURSELF!
21. Don’t be overly enthusiastic.
22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!
23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Hear what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!
24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.
25. Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.
26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.
28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.
29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It’s not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don’t care.
30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.
31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It “ain’t over till it’s over!”
32. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.
33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don’t work out with the affair partner.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Okay, my understanding of the 180 is that it is a measure to startle the WAS out of their A Fog.
It MAY do that but I would suggest it is more to protect YOU. The rest is all correct.
True, it gives you a plan, and to an extent returns a balance of power. IMO
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
[/quote]Hopefully I answered that above, but the bottom line is whether it matters to you. If you found out there isn't an A, what would your approach be? If there is an A, would it be different? [/quote]
All good points. The answer is I don't know at this point. As long as I am not sure, I guess there is a chance. I remember one session in MC that the counselor asked, If you catch her again will you stay? I said no. Up until that question I was dead set on fix'n it.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
My question that I haven't found from reading these many Newcomer threads is this. If I still suspect there is some type of A going on, should I proceed as if there is or just a WAW until my suspicions are confirmed?
Hello RR17,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
There isn't a one size fits all answer to your questions. Little compares to the devastation people feel when they discover their spouse has been unfaithful. Couples often struggle to get past intense emotional pain, mistrust, resentment and never ending arguments about the betrayal. Healing from infidelity is achievable for both of you with the right support and tools.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator The Divorce Busting Center 303-444-7004
A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.
Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
Okay, Tuesday in my sitch I told how she said we should just file if I was unwilling to move out S. Not hostel. Her brother is an attorney and plan was to call him the next day. Two days later and I've heard nothing.
Should I bring it up?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
During all this counseling, she finally stopped and things got better. Several apologies etc. Several of the problems that were discovered were never really worked out. Communication on her part. Her personal baggage etc. I had my share too.
What personal baggage are you referring to? What about communication, what are the problems there? These sound like some very serious issues that you just kind of breezed past. Usually when someone engages in an EA they are doing it because something is missing in the M. What do you think she was getting out of an EA that she was missing in the M? How can you do a 180 on that?
The issues are ones that I discovered reading countless books etc. She has never been a good communicator. I remember early on in our relationship asking what are you thinking only to hear"nothing". I was the "Performer" and she the "Audience" for those familiar with irrelationship. I had the ideas and the opinions and she always went along. She was repressing her feelings and after awhile that doesn't work. As for the EA he was in the next state and they had a couple of plans to meet. All that fell through. As for me? Well, I needed to become a better listener and had some residue from a fallen real estate market that hit me hard. At the time things never seemed that bad but in retro, I know they were. I only breezed by because I am living in the now and it is crisis mode.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Advice needed: I haven't been available for dinner the last few night since BD. We usually go out as a family on Fridays.
Should I bring up that I would like to go to dinner together tomorrow?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Okay, I have teen daughters. There is no real normal schedule. I read elsewhere in here, where I shouldn't show up, that the kids will be fine in the short term in exchange for the big picture.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Okay, I have teen daughters. There is no real normal schedule. I read elsewhere in here, where I shouldn't show up, that the kids will be fine in the short term in exchange for the big picture.
RR17,
Sometimes you just have to do what you think is best for yourself. I always take any opportunities to be with my sons.
And sometimes you have to follow a plan and do the work that doesn't align with your feelings.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Do whatever you are comfortable with. My birthday was WED and I did not invite my W to the party. I do not enjoy being around her and I realized that she does not deserve to be at my special day based on how she a treated me with her wayward ways.
If you think you can do it and be normal with engaging non-relationship conversation then do it. If not then maybe you take your d's out.
Well, I can be normal. I texted that if all were eating, that I would like to go. She responded that my oldest probably has plans. She would let me know.
We'll see.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Not there yet but preparing. I've seen it mentioned but not sure I fully understand.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Piecing is when both parties are (or say they are) committed to working on the realtionship and even then? Give it a few weeks or months to see if that is true.
Me: 43 M: 10y S:15 ILYBINILWY 2/18/13 W moved out 2/18/13 Filed for D: 2/17/13 Got DB: 2/20/13 Got DR: 2/23/13 180 & LRT Began: 2/25/13 D Final Dec '13
I went and performed well. Directed my conversation toward my youngest D and after dinner, W drove to pick up lotto tickets. (Not my idea.)
She asked if I wanted to go to the clothing store with them and I nicely declined.
This is the second night that she has slept on the couch.
D BD on Tuesday and no word 4 days later.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Everything I have read on here indicates to not bring it up, never mention it, ask what is going on etc. They call it limbo land.....I think there are some threads on it. My W told me she wanted a D on memorial day, I still do not have any papers and she moved out about 7 weeks ago.
Everything I have read on here indicates to not bring it up, never mention it, ask what is going on etc. They call it limbo land.....I think there are some threads on it. My W told me she wanted a D on memorial day, I still do not have any papers and she moved out about 7 weeks ago.
My sitch has a similar time frame but some unique conditions. My W indicated there was no other path than D. I took that at face value and maybe I should not have. I filed at 1 month. My pain is fresh so I may not be the best input and I know filing goes against what is said here.
I did the filing because my W would not have done it. She is irresponsible with these types of things in the first place. I always had to handle paperwork and important thing in the M. It never bothered me and I was happy to do it since we complimented each other in these types of ways, but I hated having to file and hate having to push W along to do steps.
I did not and still do not want to D. I love my W dearly. Is she confused? I don't know, but she made a choice and I needed to protect myself and also knew limbo is not for me. Limbo seems like the same pain magnified. As much as it crushes me and as much as I struggle with it, I don't want to prolong the pain.
If she decides before D that she wants to try on the R/M then the D can be postponed or stopped. If the D completes then there is no after for our R.
I often feel I made a mistake filing, but it's done, and I felt it was better than limbo for me.
Me: 47 W: 44 M: 3 yrs; 10 years together D (Hers): 2000 BD: 06/01/2017 S: 06/01/2017
My question that I haven't found from reading these many Newcomer threads is this. If I still suspect there is some type of A going on, should I proceed as if there is or just a WAW until my suspicions are confirmed?
Hi RR, I am looking at your thread and you sounded as if you started out great, but you are unsure b/c of not having evidence of an A. And, since you've said that an A would definitely be a deal breaker......you are a little perplexed as what to do before there is proof in the pudding (so to speak).
I think her track record speaks loudly. You are familiar with her behavior quirks from her previous involvements. She has said she's not happy. Need to S, yada......yada.....yada.
When a LBH remains under the same roof with a W who wants out and away from him......he can quickly succumb to all sorts of stressful nuances within a short period of time. He has difficulty seeing black and white, so he operates in the gray zone. Most times, operating in gray areas confuses him more and requires a bit of his own self-esteem and/or self-respect. He finds when he compromises with his W, he often feels he is compromising his integrity. Sooner or later the smallest decisions becomes harder & harder to know where to draw the line. Therefore, he needs a plan of action.
What is his overall goal? What is the goal worth to him? Where does it fall on his list of importance What is he willing to sacrifice to obtain it?
Most newcomers believe their overall goal is to save their M. It means everything to them. Without the M, nothing else seems important. They are willing to do anything, in order to save the M. If this describes your current mindset, I hope you will dig deeper and re-evaluate. Sometimes a man sacrifices his dignity, his integrity, his values, his position of leadership, his inner strength, and his respect. No man should have to sacrifice any of these for his M. You know what I mean? He needs these traits to conduct himself like a man of honor, and to feel like a man of worth. I suggest that when putting together a plan of action, you will ask yourself how it will affect these things that work in making up who you are as a man.
Take time to carefully think about the principles, values, morals, and spiritual beliefs by which you live your life. Most of us were raised to conduct ourselves by certain standards. You will need to be keenly aware of those standards as guidelines in helping your decision-making skills. At the same time, be open minded enough to learn information provided on the board. You are in charge of your decisions, nobody else, not even your W. You control one person......and that is RR17. DBing is counterintuitive and you often have to put your feelings aside, in order to do what works effectively.
We are your peers, some are as new as you, and some have been here longer. Not every situation is a exactly the same. However, as you read other threads, you'll be surprised to see how familiar they begin to sound.
The WW, in particular, are amazingly similar in mindset and behavior. Although various personalities.......they talk and act as if they all studied the same handbook. We call it, following script.
Although some posters will tell you not to mind read.......which, btw, is good advice.........some of my posts might sound as if that's exactly what I'm doing. I am a former WW and have observed and read the subject for some time...so I will try to explain the traits and mindset of the WW.
I encourage you to post every chance you get.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Everything I have read on here indicates to not bring it up, never mention it, ask what is going on etc. They call it limbo land.....I think there are some threads on it. My W told me she wanted a D on memorial day, I still do not have any papers and she moved out about 7 weeks ago.
My sitch has a similar time frame but some unique conditions. My W indicated there was no other path than D. I took that at face value and maybe I should not have. I filed at 1 month. My pain is fresh so I may not be the best input and I know filing goes against what is said here.
I did the filing because my W would not have done it. She is irresponsible with these types of things in the first place. I always had to handle paperwork and important thing in the M. It never bothered me and I was happy to do it since we complimented each other in these types of ways, but I hated having to file and hate having to push W along to do steps.
I did not and still do not want to D. I love my W dearly. Is she confused? I don't know, but she made a choice and I needed to protect myself and also knew limbo is not for me. Limbo seems like the same pain magnified. As much as it crushes me and as much as I struggle with it, I don't want to prolong the pain.
If she decides before D that she wants to try on the R/M then the D can be postponed or stopped. If the D completes then there is no after for our R.
I often feel I made a mistake filing, but it's done, and I felt it was better than limbo for me.
I know your pain. Rip the band-aid off is better than limbo.
I am not in that place right now. Maybe still pissed but I feel in control and for the most part I have a plan. GAL and DETACH.
I might recommend a book I just started listening to that might ease your pain. Called "Let It Go" . You can find it on Amazon. I am bouncing back and forth from DR and this audio book. You might give it a try and get some relief.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
What is his overall goal? What is the goal worth to him? Where does it fall on his list of importance What is he willing to sacrifice to obtain it?
Right now I am not sure of my goal. I believe I am in a heightened state of angry vigilance. I have been through this before and it was very different last time. I feel so much more in control now. Control of myself and operating in a more effective manner. I guess I am vacillating on what I will do if I confirm the A. Is it just some flirty EA that hasn't fully materialized or are they plotting behind my back?
For the mean time, I will work the DB and wait for her next move.
Where I get stuck is when following the rules and becoming the best me, comes in. I'm grilling tonight for 3 of us and she is doing the fries. I will likely take off after dinner and be gone until bedtime.
She has been very nice and is definitely noticing the difference. During our last R convo we discussed telling the kids this weekend. I don't see that happening.
I wonder if she is vacillating or just cake eating. IDK
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
One more thing and I say this for all. I got the impression from a post that the impression was that I was trying to manipulate the W.
I inadvertently did that 4 years ago and learned that that feels like progress but is false. I am simply not the begging, blubbering, pleading pathetic pile of hurt I was the last go around. I do love my W, but as you said at some point enough is enough.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Where I get stuck is when following the rules and becoming the best me, comes in. I'm grilling tonight for 3 of us and she is doing the fries.
Are you referring to Sandi's 37 Rules? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by getting stuck and not knowing where they come in. Can you expand a little more?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
As I am pulling away, as well as becoming the best version of me, I get confused as to how to behave.
Should I empty the dishwasher or leave it for her?
For years we have both gone to bed around 10pm. I have trouble sleeping and require a routine to try to get some sleep. Well at least gone up and prepared for bed and watched TV in MBR.
Now, she has been on the couch for the last several nights. Who knows why? Punish me, punish herself. One last chat with OM. IDK
Last night I went to bed as usual and a couple hour later around midnight she comes in and starts preparing for bed and gets in bed. Of course, this wakes me up. I'm sure she realized the risk. She says sorry. But not a very sensor sorry. I said that's alright, even though I know that this was inconsiderate and that as she falls asleep in no time I will be up for hours.
Now can I even say anything about this?
Damage is done. I'm up before 7am and going to church with or without W.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
As I am pulling away, as well as becoming the best version of me, I get confused as to how to behave.
Should I empty the dishwasher or leave it for her?
For years we have both gone to bed around 10pm. I have trouble sleeping and require a routine to try to get some sleep. Well at least gone up and prepared for bed and watched TV in MBR.
Now, she has been on the couch for the last several nights. Who knows why? Punish me, punish herself. One last chat with OM. IDK
Last night I went to bed as usual and a couple hour later around midnight she comes in and starts preparing for bed and gets in bed. Of course, this wakes me up. I'm sure she realized the risk. She says sorry. But not a very sincere sorry. I said that's alright, even though I know that this was inconsiderate and that as she falls asleep in no time I will be up for hours.
Now can I even say anything about this?
Damage is done. I'm up before 7am and going to church with or without W.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Is there a hard fast rule for how long to apply Sandi's rules or 180?
Is it until you feel it is enough or when WW says she's ready to piece?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
180 means identifying things in your marriage that aren't working and changing your behavior (often by doing the opposite of what you typically do, hence the name) to see if that improves the situation.
If the new behaviors yield better results than the old, then you keep doing them forever, or until they stop working and/or you think of an even more effective way to behave that yields better results for your marriage.
And the practice of identifying things that aren't working and changing your behavior is a lifelong practice.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
One thing that can be surprising: piecing is a decision, not an emotion.
Spouses don't have to feel "in love" to decide to piece.
I see some LBSes who get their egos tied up in how their spouses feel about them. In my experience, piecing comes first and then emotions (hopefully) follow, but the LBS needs to be patient and not crowd their spouse.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
And I will add a voluntary decision on both sides. Don't force it LBSs it's not worth it. Don't even trust it at first. Remeber you been dealing with a rollercoaster and guess what? The rides not over yet.
I speak from experience from the last time. Sounds like what you have been wanting to hear for months maybe years, but proceed with caution.
Edit - threads combined - stick to one thread until 100 posts - Cadet
Last edited by Cadet; 07/31/1712:14 AM.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
180 means identifying things in your marriage that aren't working and changing your behavior (often by doing the opposite of what you typically do, hence the name) to see if that improves the situation.
If the new behaviors yield better results than the old, then you keep doing them forever, or until they stop working and/or you think of an even more effective way to behave that yields better results for your marriage.
And the practice of identifying things that aren't working and changing your behavior is a lifelong practice.
Rose if this is the case then I'm all confused. As posted before 180 is a tactic or method to use in certain SITs.
The 180
1. Don’t pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Don’t point out “good points” in marriage.
4. Don’t follow her/him around the house.
5. Don’t encourage or initiate discussion about the future.
6. Don’t ask for help from the family members of your wayward partner.
7. Don’t ask for reassurances.
8. Don’t buy or give gifts.
9. Don’t schedule dates together.
10. Don’t keep saying, “I Love You!” Because if you really think about it, he/she is, at this particular moment, not very loveable.
11. Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!
12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.
13. Don’t sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!
14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue, no matter how much you want to!
15. If you’re in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.
16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that “they (the wayward partner)” are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life…without them!
17. Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.
18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around, not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self-assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.
19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!
20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control. YOURSELF!
21. Don’t be overly enthusiastic.
22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!
23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Hear what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!
24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.
25. Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.
26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.
28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.
29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It’s not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don’t care.
30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.
31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It “ain’t over till it’s over!”
32. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.
33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don’t work out with the affair partner.
Not sure this is to be practiced forever. Someone is confused here.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Ah. I was thinking of the guidance in the section "Do a 180" in chapter 6 of Divorce Remedy.
Not the same thing.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
I think there is much confusion on this. The way I found this site was reading about the 180 Turn around on someone else's blog and began searching and found this site.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
BTW, I have violated the rules or 180 today. W woke me at midnight and I couldn't get back to sleep for several hours. Woke this morning hoping to attend church when oldest D call from 2 rooms away and asked if I can take her to a friend's to leave on a beach trip. A trip I was never made aware of. This along with the deprivation caused me to miss church and I let W know of my displeasure. W apologized. Both for not informing me about the trip and for short notice and waking me. This is a big step for her. Apologies do not come easy.
Anyway, I did show slight anger and I feel I violated the rules. Her response is, I'm sure a sign of something, but I don't know what.
I'm tired and grouchy.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So, late afternoon, W announces that both teens are out and it's is just the two of us for dinner and the only thing she can think of is sushi. Sorry TMI
Dinner was nice and I stepped out for a cigar after, until just before bedtime. You know, leave early.
She is being super nice.
IDK, what's going on. Is it because of BD on Tues? Is she behaving this way to eat cake of trying to make nice. I'm sure this is boring stuff to read, but I'm journaling to keep my head straight. It would be easy to fall for a ploy if I allowed myself. I'm suspicious. Is this an A fog thing?
Her behavior is unusual and perhaps it is just because I have backed off and she feels guilty, but it still seems very out of character. Is she trying to throw me off of her trail?
I would love any input. Especially from former WWs.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
RR, that list you have copied and pasted is not Sandi's 37 rules. I think I know where you got it (from another member's post). IDK, but I think he was using the original list but cutting it shorter, and maybe giving his twist on some of them. There are a few places that could leave the wrong idea with the reader, IMHO. I considered saying something at the time when he first started passing that version around, but he has as much right to post what he wants, as I do. The reason I am speaking up now is b/c my name is attached. Here is the link to Sandi's 37 Rules:
Interestingly enough, a lot of posters have referred to them as "The 180". To be clear, they are only guidelines for the newcomer who has no idea which way to turn when they first arrive here. They are not "The 180". There is not "The 180". Everyone decides for themselves what they will do that is opposite of their usual behavior. That's the principle behind taking a 180 degree. Also, let me point out that a newcomer does not necessarily take a 180 degree in everything. Reading Divorce Remedy will better explain it.
At the bottom of the first page of Sandi's Rules is a link to another guide about the mindset of the WW. You may find it helpful to your situation.
I hope I have clarified a couple of things, and not made it more confusing.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks for the clarification, Sandi2. It is obvious that much thought and consideration goes into the insight that you share.
I would love to hear your take on my Ws most recent behavior.
I know it probably won't really matter in the big picture but I think it might help others. If I hadn't been in this boat before I would easily fall for a short stretch of good behavior. I have to remind my self that she BDed a D on me just a week ago.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
It's not all that uncommon for a WW to turn on the niceness after the bomb drop, especially if her H appears to go along with what she wants. I compare it to a mother who makes her young son do something he hates, and she is trying to convince him how great it is. In other words it's as if your WW is saying, "See? It's not so bad. We can still get along and be one happy family".
Going forward, you may notice that as long as you do exactly what the WW wants, she may appear nice from time to time.........until she gets mad at something or even someone else, and takes her bad mood out on you. Remember, she is a user. She expects you to be available 24/7. She will take advantage ever way she can. And, if you tell her "no" or do anything she doesn't like.....then she punishes you by not being nice to you. Her "niceness" is a tool she uses to get what she wants.......or to punish by taking it away.
The WW is extremely selfish and untrustworthy. When she suddenly becomes nice for no apparent reason, it's usually indicative of manipulation at play.......on some level.
Her niceness should not throw the H off guard and think she is having second thoughts about the M. Instead, he can expect her to want something from him. The nice act is her way to butter him before she asks for something. Unfortunately, it works on a lot of H's b/c they fail to see what she is really doing. I've even read some posts from H's who had a good idea.......but would say "It felt so good". That's just pathetic.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Just to chronicle. All out of character and unusual in the week since D BD. All since applying "the rules".
I have had 2.5 honest sounding "I'm sorrys" with no "buts....". I have had 1 initiated dinner for 2 and named the restaurant.
All out of character
Reading tells me to look for the little things that indicate a change, but I am suspicious. I will continue working my plan and proceed with caution. It does feel good, almost too good and this is not my first rodeo. ;-)
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Just to chronicle. All out of character and unusual in the week since D BD. All since applying "the rules".
I have had 2.5 honest sounding "I'm sorrys" with no "buts....". I have had 1 initiated dinner for 2 and named the restaurant.
All out of character
Reading tells me to look for the little things that indicate a change, but I am suspicious. I will continue working my plan and proceed with caution. It does feel good, almost too good and this is not my first rodeo. ;-)
Hello RR17,
It sounds like your changes have been noticed, just difficult to believe at this point. These changes need to be made for you and your kids. They need to be long lasting and sincere. Prove that to yourself and anyone else through your actions, not your words.
She could be temperature checking you wanting to be sure that you are still available as plan B.
You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator The Divorce Busting Center 303-444-7004
A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.
Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
Thanks, I just discovered she was looking through the papers on my home office desk. I have a CCTV set up and my daughter was in there when she was looking. I am vacillating on whether to ask her about what she was looking for and did she find it. I got my daughter to tell me that she was looking for a piece of paper, so I won't give the camera away. I have also removed the camera in case she catches on. Thoughts?
I don't have to be accusitive, just matter of fact. "Did you find the paper you were looking for?"
I can always catalog it.
I just don't like people sneaking around behind my back. It bothers me. Is she building a case?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Don't go to the land of crazy, my friend - this isn't what a M or a good life is built on. Your suspicion is about fear. Just hide away any papers or things you don't want her to be able to access because they do steal and lie, I'm afraid. But no emotion, just be practical.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
I did ask her and she paused and said she couldn't remember what she was looking for, with all that's going on, her mind was a bit fuzzy.
Whatever. The exercise has taught me that a bold as I have been, a few days of nice and I feel I have sacrificed some power.
The camera was to confirm that she is in an A. It notifies me when there is movement in a certain zone. I will leave it down as it can cause me to obsess. I just want to get proof.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Well, more rules were broken. I suspected that she was opening separate accounts and probably siphoning off money, so I confronted her. Bad me.
And in a way started an R discussion. No argument and she was tender and reflected on how she was a doormat early on in the relationship and how, because of that she has nothing now.
I did point out some progress and how I'm sure that she lost all respect during the recession and blah blah blah. I validated but need to study up. She cried and it seemed genuine, but I didn't comfort. I told her that I realized that the only person that I could control was ME and that I was prepared for whatever she decided to do.
As of now, I am leaning toward WAW over A WW. This could change.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So W went to talk with an attny at her brother's office.
Several hours later I texted "Did you start the process" W: "No just got info" Me: Okay" "BTW, the back door was left unlocked"
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Reading and reading, I still don't get a clear picture. Work on myself for the things she won't identify. Act AS IF. Detach, don't pursue. I get that.
I would love to hear what get's their attention, what has been successful at shaking them out of the fog. Do I pack my stuff?
I realize it is a complicated answer but surely someone has done/seen this and had results.
Last edited by Cadet; 08/01/1706:38 AM. Reason: threads merged
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
If your goal is to shake them out of the fog, then you arent doing it right. The only ones that can control what you are asking is the WAS.
The best thing you can do is to be the best you that you can be. They may or may not come out of the fog, but if they do, then youll be in a great position to where your improvements will be noticed.
What am I doing wrong? I didn't show any concern other than what may come my way.
Quote:
The best thing you can do is to be the best you that you can be. They may or may not come out of the fog, but if they do, then youll be in a great position to where your improvements will be noticed.
If this is the case, then why not just have a self-improvement board? I also read and agree that w's unhappiness is her own and not necessarily due to me.
I see lots of advice on how to react, how to behave, yet it is all for not?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I see lots of advice on how to react, how to behave, yet it is all for not?
There is no magic cure, pill or formular. This site is much about self-improvement, also a place to vent and share your story, to get input and most of all, for support.
If you follow the advice you recieve here, you still might not reconsile with your spouse. But you'll certainly move forward as a better you. And that's not half bad, is it?
M:46 WXW:40 T:20 M:13 D3,D8,D10 BD:11/12/16 D:12/14/16 OM confirmed 01/20/17
I see lots of advice on how to react, how to behave, yet it is all for not?
There is no magic cure, pill or formular. This site is much about self-improvement, also a place to vent and share your story, to get input and most of all, for support.
If you follow the advice you recieve here, you still might not reconsile with your spouse. But you'll certainly move forward as a better you. And that's not half bad, is it?
Its also a place to learn about marriage, relationships, love, boundaries, and other important information about marriage and life. A self improvement website does not seem to do that IMHO.
I see lots of advice on how to react, how to behave, yet it is all for not?
It was a rhetorical question. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Last edited by Cadet; 08/01/1710:04 AM. Reason: fix quote
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
If you go all the way through all the LBS threads, there are a list of rules. Here: Check out #10. Its done now, but in the past you should have insisted on transparency and then you would know whether she is in an A or not. If she brings up the R conversation again (only if SHE does), then I'd casually mention how this seems eerily similar to when she had an A and ask if she is having one.
Prior to reading threads about Affairs, I was inclined to think the same thing as you. I'm not so sure now. Obviously you call though. Anyway, the rules arer a little different with an A, so I'd keep trying to see if she is in one. My sitch is very complicated, but if she is only a WAW its harder to figure out how to act IMO.
not to nitpick but I think it's very important to realize there are NO "RULES",
these are All just guidelines.
It concerns me to see the "rules" hammered so much, b/c it feels like a bandaid.
Monitor for what is working & not working, do more of the first and less/none of the latter.
That, and becoming the person YOU want to become are the two prongs of this approach.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I see lots of advice on how to react, how to behave, yet it is all for not?
It was a rhetorical question. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
How are your GAL? It's the only way to detach that I know of. Seriously.
And detachment helps you no matter what your w does/feels/thinks
and it helps you as a dad, too. Which means your kids will be better off.
Keep at this
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
As for GAL. I've always kind of had an L. I golf, have cigar friends, started playing guitar a few years ago. Take my Ds on dates. All supported by the W. We go out to eat often, alone and with family.
I know this sounds self-serving and I am far from perfect, but W says she is just not happy, taking inventory of all past setbacks and disappointments and friends death, daughter leaving for college. If there is something I'm doing or not, she can't tell me what it is. Says that I use the computer too much while she plays games on her phone.
Her lack of happiness is not my responsibility, nor could I change it. If I could, I would. She never even seemed unhappy. MLC? Problem is last time this came up 4 years ago she handled it with an EA.
One thing I could do is better is detach. I base my happiness on the response I'm getting from her and others. All the negative affects of not detaching.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
not to nitpick but I think it's very important to realize there are NO "RULES",
Then what are Sandi2's 37 Rules?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
What am I doing wrong? I didn't show any concern other than what may come my way.
Quote:
The best thing you can do is to be the best you that you can be. They may or may not come out of the fog, but if they do, then youll be in a great position to where your improvements will be noticed.
If this is the case, then why not just have a self-improvement board? I also read and agree that w's unhappiness is her own and not necessarily due to me.
I see lots of advice on how to react, how to behave, yet it is all for not?
For me, I learned two things here:
1) what I could do to not make my overall situation worse - for example, the 37 rules are designed to help you to stop digging the hole that you had been for days/weeks/months. It gets you to stop doing behaviors that arent working. While these things seem common sense now, at the moment, I didnt have the wherewithal to do any of them.
2) It got me to focus on the things I could control - myself and my relationships with my family, friends, coworkers, children, and yes, even my now ex - and figure out what I wanted those things to look like. I looked at myself to understand how I ws behaving and sought to fix the areas that I felt needed repair. While I started out doing that as a way to get my ex back, I quickly realized that those endeavors were like pushing on a string.
Yes, there are surely other sites that can also help with #2. But I think this site does a great job of blending the two.
I would love to hear what get's their attention, what has been successful at shaking them out of the fog. Do I pack my stuff?
When you are fully detached and don't care what gets their attention.
Cadet's answer was brief, but there's a deep truth in it. You cannot shake them out of the fog -directly-. Only they can do that. Anything you do to force them, like packing a bag, or begging them to stay or whatever, it's all the same to them- tricks to get them back. And they will see right through it.
DBing is -indirectly- influencing them. WAS's are stubborn, they are convinced what they are doing is "right" even though they usually feel terrible about it. The more you TELL them they are wrong, the more convinced they are that they are right. Begging/ pleading/ reasoning/ explaining/ apologizing all just sounds like pandering to them, it all sounds like efforts by you to get what YOU want (to get back together) which to them looks like "more of the same behavior" (IE- control, manipulation, selfishness).
So the idea is to show them the opposite of what they expect (180's). They EXPECT you to pout, whine, beg, plead, etc. So if you pull back and become more independent and self-sufficient then THAT is what gets their attention. If you've had previous relationships where you were the one that broke up, then think back to the aftermath. I had a GF that just said "fine" and walked away. And I had a GF do the whole begging/ pleading thing. The former seemed strong and made me wonder if I gave up someone I shouldn't have. The latter just seemed weak and pathetic and while I felt sorry for her, it just reinforced my belief that she really wasn't for me. I just mention that because most people have been through the same, and it kind of helps you understand how the WAS thinks.
So yes, you increase your chances of a recon by getting to the point where you don't care what gets their attention, you live for you and not for them. Paradoxically that also puts you in a position where if they do decide to recon, you may not want to because you no longer need them. But that's OK. "Wanting" your spouse is fine, "needing" them is unhealthy.
not to nitpick but I think it's very important to realize there are NO "RULES",
Then what are Sandi2's 37 Rules?
They are your roadmap to how to behave with a WAS, particularly if you're still in the same house. Call them rules or guidelines or commandments or whatever, it doesn't really matter. 25's point is they are not a replacement for reading DR and other self-help books, for going to IC, for going to MC (if and when the marriage gets to that point), for seeking medical attention for extreme depression or anxiety, for going to Retrouvaille, etc. etc. Some people think all they have to do is follow Sandi's rules and that will heal their marriage. Sandi's rules are one tool in your toolbox. You need all the tools to fix yourself and maybe the M, no one tool will get you there.
Also it's not a static situation. It's dynamic. As your WAS and your situation changes, you have to tweak your DB'ing (including Sandi's rules) to compensate. You have to monitor, and keep doing what works and stop doing what doesn't work. In order to know what works and doesn't work, you have to change things up now and then. That's the nature of DB'ing.
I have tried different things, being nice, inviting to breakfast etc.....I felt like I got more out of my W in terms of interaction from her but it did not change our relationship any as far as her wanting to reconcile. It seems she has really shut down since I did not invite her to my birthday party last week. I guess in some weird way that is a good thing because maybe for the first time I stood up for myself.
I understand and agree with several points. Unless I'm missing something some of the accepted info on this board contradicts its self as well as DR book.
This is my 2nd go round and I know what doesn't work. I did it. It is the Pursuer/Distancer dynamic and I have read about it a length.
I have reread this thread and nowhere have I asked for or insinuated that there is a silver bullet or single trick. I get that.
When one thread says move away from the S and the next says become a good friend to the S, it get's confusing.
When DR says fix the problems in you and the problems involve intimacy with your S. (a common problem with LBH) It gets confusing.
When both book and this board says to "try and monitor", yet Sandi says the b!&* is a lier and is taking temp. (which I believe is very plausible). It gets confusing. Is it working or is she testing to see if you will still be plan B?
If you are going to do anything, either passively or actively, you are doing it to affect change. Does this mean you expect to fix your S or Fix the problem? No, unless we could change other people it would be impossible and we all know we can't do that.
One benefit that I have is that I have been here in this SITCH before. My W has seen the pitiful blubbering spineless victim beg and plead. That has never been the case this time. Anything different is surely seen as a 180. I have seen the benefit of not pushing her away with my pursuit. She seems to enjoy my company, which I intentionally limit.
Odd thing is, she, for the most part, is acting as if everything is fairly normal. She also went to gather info on D from an attorney yesterday.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I have tried different things, being nice, inviting to breakfast etc.....I felt like I got more out of my W in terms of interaction from her but it did not change our relationship any as far as her wanting to reconcile. It seems she has really shut down since I did not invite her to my birthday party last week. I guess in some weird way that is a good thing because maybe for the first time I stood up for myself.
Good for you Joseph9. Remember that mad is not always a bad thing.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
not to nitpick but I think it's very important to realize there are NO "RULES",
Then what are Sandi2's 37 Rules?
They are guidelines based on MWD's books, which Sandi assembled one afternoon.
And In those, Sandi mentions that they are guidelines, and that NOT all are applicable, t and that you must monitor the results of your behaviors and 180s,
do what works, and less/none of what does not work.
React accordingly.
I know a lot of people grab onto these rigidly as "THE RULES" - and assume if they do X and Y, in just the right order, all will be well. They expect it.
Sometimes they are furious when they have "Complied with the rules".
I wish it was that simple.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
it does get confusing, I know. You know what does not work. MAYBE doing the opposite of whatever does not work, is a start?
However, there is a paradox and it's fair to discuss it.
Here are lines from Swingers that may help.
And what if I don't want to give up on her?
ROB You don't call.
MIKE But you said I shouldn't call if I wanted to give up on her.
ROB Right.
MIKE So I don't call either way.
ROB Right.
MIKE So what's the difference?
ROB The only difference between giving up and not giving up is if you take her back when she wants to come back. See, you can't do anything to make her want to come back. You can only do things to make her not want to come back.
MIKE So the only difference is if I forget about her or pretend to forget about her.
ROB Right.
MIKE Well that [censored].
ROB It [censored].
MIKE So it's almost a retroactive decision. So I could, like, let's say, forget about her and when she comes back make like I just pretended to forget about her.
ROB Right...or more likely the opposite.
MIKE Right... Wait, what do you mean?
ROB I mean first you'll pretend not to care, not call - whatever, and then, eventually, you really won't care.
MIKE Unless she comes back first.
ROB Ah, see, that's the thing. Somehow they don't come back until you really don't care anymore.
MIKE There's the rub.
ROB There's the rub.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Somewhere on here, I saw a list of rules after A. I should have saved it or bookmarked it. Anyone know where that is?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
From what I am seeing in these past couple of pages, is a newcomer who is bouncing off one thing to jump on another.......in hopes that something jars, shakes, or rattles your W out of the fog. I can tell you that all this bouncing around does not work to wake her up. You have to be consistent, and your changes must be based on your values and princples..........not some kind of kiss-a$$ junk you read on some web sites or some books I have seen. I don't know if was you or another poster who said one thread says this and another thread says that. Absolutely correct! Why? B/c all situations are cut by the same cookie cutter. IOW, I may not give identical advice to another poster in a different situation. (Although, I try to keep it as close to the same, as possible, simply b/c of the newcomers who have said the same as you). I may not give women the same advice as men. It will depend where they are in their situation. Plus, if you haven't read all their threads, then you may not know where they are on their particular pathway.
I have been known to write long posts, but there is no way under the sun to say everything at once. I sense frustration, and maybe you are on the verge of panic. We are all trying to help you, and explain a few things that may be confusing. Nothing is 100% fool proof. A WW is a fool, and you could change all your bad ways to being nearly perfect.......and she may even like some of them, but she still might not want to stay in the MR. Why? B/c her wayward mindset is the problem, now. Whatever may have happened in the past......her waywardness is the current issue, and nothing will succeed as long as she retains resentment and disrespect. Go ahead and improve the man you need to become, but don't do changes just to get her back, b/c it won't stick and you'll be back in the same boat again.
Last thought, I think you need to stop trying to shock her out of her fog. This becomes a real stumbling block for LBH's. Once you stop trying to do something to shock her out of the fog.....then you'll focus on what you want to change permantely.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I realize all are here to help, although a few may not have read the books. I have tried to help other in their struggle.
All situations are not the same and I realize there are stages. Not everyone is in the same stage. Your descriptions of WW and WAW are spot on for me. I have seen the demon. The W that only thinks and speaks in negatives. The completely out of character selfishness. Not so much this go-round but the last. I have read DR.
Things at my house are escalating fast and it is scary. I also know what doesn't work.
Things that I never realized before I have learned can affect my SITCH. D18 is leaving for college in Sept. D that she has cleaved to in the past. EXH of an old friend died last month. And I am still not sure if there is OM.
I have handled things very differently this time and I see results. I just don't know if the results are a good sign or temperature taking.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
BTW, asking questions doesn't mean that I am jumping around. I think it means that the information is jumping around and that I am questioning to find the proper path.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Here is what I've been doing and the reason for many of the questions.
GAL Reading too much I am avoiding pursuing I am limiting small talk No starting R conversations. I am validating
I question if there is an A. This is where I get stuck. Not knowing. Not knowing how helpful of distant to be.
I have taken down the camera because it was making me crazy.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I haven't been on this board on a long time. My marriage did not survive. The only advice I can offer is from mistakes I've made and observations from men who have "DB-ed" their marriage, seemingly succeeded and then have had their spouse repeat the behavior again and divorce them.
Here's goes:
1. DB-ing is very hard. And men and women are different. Even MWD will tell you that it's harder to turn around a WAW and WW than a man. Also, there is a tendency on these forums to get stuck in waiting mode. MWD talks about the last resort technique, after the last resort techniques, ultimatums and going dark. These are proactive, powerful things that show you are serious. They almost never get mentioned or implemented on the forums. The nature of a forum leads to lots of analysis about every conversation, text and facial expression in the relationship.
2. It seems you need to know what you want. You seem a little unsure if you could forgive an actual infidelity or would pursue a divorce. The lack of clarity will affect your strategy and exhaust you.
3. It would seem you are getting into that zone that you are second guessing every action, conversation and thought about your wife. Every conversation, every little thing is being scrutinized. You can't keep this up for long. Why? It's exhausting. And...your wife can tell. She can see that you are dancing around her. Any change of behavior is, admit it or not, a way to change the outcome of this whole mess you're in. It makes her trust you less. To be honest, GAL, and being detached is very hard. How do you work hard at looking like you are not working hard? It's exhausting, bro. Very few people can be that Zen. Give yourself a break. Be yourself.
4. Her brother is a lawyer? Really? Sounds like you are about to get hosed. The ONE thing you need to go is go consult as good lawyer ASAP to know your rights and get prepared. Start seizing the initiative. This is your life, your house, your kids, time to protect your interests. Do not tell her you're doing this.
5. Your initial posture should be: if she is interested in separation or divorce, she can move to the couch and she can move out. Why should you unseat yourself as the paterfamilias if she wants out or is having an affair?
6. I think in Sandi's rules, particularly in dealing with a Wayward or WAW, it's important for the man to have set boundaries or rules, show strength and be clear. Respect leads to attraction. Also, establishing respect shows you are not someone to be trifled with.
7. The longer this drags on, the weaker your position becomes. You will compromise, make yourself smaller, meet her needs and then she'll walk all over you. Don't wait for her to act. Time to take control back.
8. If you are really worried about an EA or physical affair, hire a private investigator. From electronic surveillance to following them around, you'll get the proof you need.
9. In my experience, unless you are a complete jerk, changing yourself, becoming your "best" self, doing 180's don't really last. Eventually you will revert to who you basically are. I've seen it on these boards before - intense personal change that lasts for 12, 18 or 24 mos and then you slip back. Sorry to say this, but it's inevitable. The divorce gets busted and then, 2 yrs later they are back on the boards and the marriage is toast. Personal change is super hard. If you're wife doesn't like who you are, might as well end it sooner than later. Again, if you're a real jerk and need serious help, get it. If you're just a normal guy, you aren't going to turn into superman. You can't save this marriage alone. Two people need to compromise and work at it. You will hear in the forums that 180's and being solution oriented are really just emergency measures to get their attention. GAL is for your own sanity. The real hard work of repairing a marriage is 50/50 and In the end, she has to want the marriage as much as you do.
10. This sounds like a contradiction to what I said in #9, but the only real change you need to make it clear, solid, boundaries and being hard-core about what you want and need. People respond to that. Being an emotional chameleon, "trying" to be detached doesn't work. Set boundaries, set ultimatums. This is hard, but, it helps avoid all the back and forth. Does she want to be married to you or not? Thus far she said she wants a separation or a divorce. Act on that. If you want something else, state it. You can say, "If you want to work on this marriage, fine, if you don't, I have some decisions to make in the next few weeks." Strength and clarity are attractive.
11. Having said all that try and get some sleep, exercise, eat well, have some fun. Take up a martial art, go rock climbing or take up a hobby that forces you to experience "one-mind" and extreme focus. Hard to worry about the marriage when you are ducking a kick to the head or reaching for the next handhold on the rock face. Gives you mind a rest. Yeah, I know, almost impossible when your marriage is imploding. Well, at least, try. ;-)
I just don't know if the results are a good sign or temperature taking.
If it is a sudden 180 change in her interaction with you.......like, suddenly being nice, flirty, increase in texts, or touchy-feely, or even showing affection.......then be cautious about them being genuine and lasting changes. The WW usually has an ulterior motive for these type of sudden 180's. I don't recall any sudden changes in a WW ever being the real deal, but rather was her way of temp checking and/or manipulation. Watch her attitude toward you. Look for humbleness in her. When her attitude, words, and behavior match.......then you can begin to believe there are changes being made in your W.
There have been stories of the WW returning to the MR after the overt rebellion ended, and without her showing any signs of remorse or taking responsibility for her actions and destruction she caused..........plus, no attemps of seeking IC/MC (or some type of guidance, program, etc.) to piece the M back together. These are the ones that really concern me. If the LBH sticks around on the board, we usually discover his WW still habors disrespect and resentment toward him. If he is content just to not get a divorce, these other issues get swept under the rug and nothing gets resolved. He has a bitter W sharing the same roof.......and that's all. In other words, if her waywardness is not dealt with........they still have a very serious problem in the MR. The idea that everything will just work itself out, makes no sense at all. That's like discovering you have a disease and refusing to take proactive medical assistance, while thinking it will work itself out in time. If you reconcile with a WW, you'd both better have a proactive plan to overcome her wayward mindset. She will need the tools to know how to conquer it, just like you need the DB tools to know what to do now.
Her work begins at the point she decides she will do what's necessary to save her MR. And when I say work, I mean all the work in setting right her mindset. It is hard! The LBH who thinks she's going to snap out of her wayward mindset as soon as the affair ends, and will be the old W again........is a H who is headed for disappointment. Some WW's may snap out of her fantasy fog when reality comes knocking on her door. However, she does not snap out of a wayward mindset. She has to work herself out of it. If she is honest, and if she gets the information about what she needs to do.......and if she is willing, then the couple has a good shot at rebuilding their relationship and being happy together. I don't say this to discourage anyone, but to give you a realistic view of what to expect. This is just a few highlights, b/c a lot more details are involved for the WW who sincerely repents and sets about to do what is right.
Quote:
BTW, asking questions doesn't mean that I am jumping around. I think it means that the information is jumping around and that I am questioning to find the proper path.
Okay, gotcha. I want you to ask questions. My own problem is trying to cover too much at one time.......b/c I want the H to be informed ASAP. That was one reason for having my threads about the WW. If you will read all of those threads, it may fill in the gaps. I'm not sure what information is jumping around, but if you are referring to something on another member's thread......I suggest you focus more on what has been posted directly to you. Then, if it sounds contradicting, you can ask specific questions about it.
Quote:
Here is what I've been doing and the reason for many of the questions.
GAL Reading too much I am avoiding pursuing I am limiting small talk No starting R conversations. I am validating
Sounds good. What do you mean by "reading too much"? Are you referring to reading posts on the board, or reading other books and websites?
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I question if there is an A. This is where I get stuck. Not knowing. Not knowing how helpful of distant to be.
Do you understand that a woman can be wayward without being in an affair? Men become so focused on just the "affair" that it paralyzes them. They think the affair is the source of the problems......and they also think that ending the affair will bring their old W back again. An affair is rebellion showing out. It can definitely cause additional problems, and I don't mean to lessen it's destructive power. I'm just saying that it was not her original issue that eventually led to an affair (or whatever type of rebellion she's displaying). The deeper issue is her resentment and disrespect that has grown over time. There may be other issues, such as entitlement, selfishness, etc. These all will be the last areas for her to conquer, IMHO, and more difficult than ending the affair. When she decides to conquer those areas, then the MR can not only be saved..... but will be happy. In many cases, the H has his share of issues, too. While he works to improve himself during the time she is wanting out of the MR, her self improvement comes after she makes the decision to do the right thing. Most couples would be smart by getting outside professional help to guide them back together, b/c piecing is very tough.
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I have taken down the camera because it was making me crazy.
Okay, that's fine......if you won't go more crazy in not knowing. My question is, can you become unstuck by not knowing if she's in an affair?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks for your response Sandi. You definitely seem to get it. I feel I get it too, but it can be difficult when you are involved.
By reading too much, I mean everything. This board, the books, other misinformation.
Right now, she seems to be empowered by the D discussion that she had on Monday. Also, she seems intreaged by the fact that I haven't inquired about this meeting or the R for that matter. I won't go as far as to say she is holding it over my head but she seems empowered or more confident.
We had dinner out alone again tonight. I let her do most of the talking and I validate. She likes this dynamic.
I continue to vacillate about the suspension of the A. At one point days ago she let me go through her phone and she gave me the password to her laptop. Which I have not searched. I am still cautious. She may have just gained some self-confidence and after being alone for 2 days reached this WAW status. Also, I realize that piecing was not handled correctly after the last EA.
I have read volumes of your and others post on here. I know that a WAW and WW are to be handled differently. I know the trap that is easily fallen into when W shows some positive response.
I want to do the correct things, not what feels like progress and is ultimately worse in the long run.
I feel she is not going to show remorse because she doesn't feel she has done anything wrong at this point.
Some new behaviors: She is very contemplative when I ask her a question. She seems very willing to do things alone with me. She knows from my distancing that it is not expected.
Neither of us explains where we are going and there is little obligation to disclose when we return. Most of her stuff is with my Ds.
Continued WW behavior: There is a selfish air about her. Empathy that I have explained and she seem oblivious about. I have now stopped all R discussions. She never starts them unless BDing.
I feel I am treating her as a WAW/WW hi-bread if that makes sense. DR talks about becoming this better H and this is where I get confused. Monitor and adjust but pull back etc... At this rate will she bottom out?
I can handle knowing or not knowing for sure about an A, for the time being.
If it arises I will reinstall the camera.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Also as for a 180, I wouldn't call it flirty. More like friendly with a big removal of pressure.
I cut out 99% of daily texts. I feel she sees a big lack of pursuit and this make explain her changes. IDK
When she brings up an R conversation and the D gets brought up I pland to respond with an emotionless "You are really serious about this.." and shut up.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Theoden, all valid points. Sorry your's didn't work out. The whole F'ing thing is hard.
The dance IS exhausting and unsustainable.
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4. Her brother is a lawyer? Really? Sounds like you are about to get hosed. The ONE thing you need to go is go consult as good lawyer ASAP to know your rights and get prepared. Start seizing the initiative. This is your life, your house, your kids, time to protect your interests. Do not tell her you're doing this.
I'm not afraid of her brother. He is a limp noodle, none confrontational lawyer. Their father is a retired prosecutor that loves and treats me like a son. That said I won't proceed with blind eyes. My Ds are teens and custody won't matter.
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10. This sounds like a contradiction to what I said in #9, but the only real change you need to make it clear, solid, boundaries and being hard-core about what you want and need. People respond to that. Being an emotional chameleon, "trying" to be detached doesn't work. Set boundaries, set ultimatums. This is hard, but, it helps avoid all the back and forth. Does she want to be married to you or not? Thus far she said she wants a separation or a divorce. Act on that. If you want something else, state it. You can say, "If you want to work on this marriage, fine, if you don't, I have some decisions to make in the next few weeks." Strength and clarity are attractive.
Again, I agree. The problem is I see value in not bringing the R up and these things require a R discussion. When and if that time comes I will be prepared.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Sorry, there is always one last important part that I think of after I hit Submit.
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Does she want to be married to you or not? Thus far she said she wants a separation or a divorce. Act on that. If you want something else, state it. You can say, "If you want to work on this marriage, fine, if you don't, I have some decisions to make in the next few weeks." Strength and clarity are attractive.
Again the problem here is, yes right now she said these things. But ever since she went for the D consultation she acts the opposite, as if she has been shaken from the fog or just realized the finality of this decision. (remember to believe nothing of what you hear..., Judge actions not words...)
She is a person that has always stifled herself when it comes to expressing her feelings. Me, on the other hand, everone knows how I feel. I guess a kind of a role reversal for most stereotypes. I am by no means an overly sensitive, Nice-guy type. I just say what I mean and mean what I say. If I don't like it, I will let you know. She has always kept me guessing. I'm sure it goes back to some childhood blah, blah blah.
At some point soon I will have to set ultimatums.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Not to highjack the thread, but how do you get back control and respect?
As for #3 with the WW noticing yiur change in behavior. This is difficult when the situation is changing. It's like your expecting to show that you are not upset when you just find out that your W is still messing with OM. People go through various emotions regularly, so why shouldn't it be the same in MR involving an A? Sometimes I feel the LBS are expected to deal with situations that have no business being entertained.
Absolutely, as I understand boundaries in this context. I will review the thread and explore further.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So W has been nice like nothing happened, for several days. It was a week ago today that she went to see D Attorney and I've had no updates, no mention.
Typical dilemma, I am not to initiate R conversations, yet have personal boundaries. Well, my boundaries tell me that you don't get to pretend like this never happened.
Sugestions, please?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
So W has been nice like nothing happened, for several days. It was a week ago today that she went to see D Attorney and I've had no updates, no mention.
Typical dilemma, I am not to initiate R conversations, yet have personal boundaries. Well, my boundaries tell me that you don't get to pretend like this never happened.
Sugestions, please?
That's not a boundary.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
Boundaries are what you place around your self/life to treat yourself with respect and care. You can't control others, but you can decide what to do if they can't or won't honour your boundary. Which means if you set a boundary, you might not need to shout out loud about it, but you need to know what the consequences are if someone crosses it and the effect on you too. Often we find it difficult because we worry that someone else won't accept the boundary and the consequences will push them away, increase conflict or be less than ideal for us. So, if I say I won't talk to my H unless he can treat me with respect, he makes his choice but I have to be ok with that meaning that I might not be able to talk to him.
There are boundaries, standards you set for yourself and rules you try to enforce on others...commonly we all get the three confused! A boundary is like a wall with a gate around you. If people want to come on to your 'property', they need to use the gate. If not, they need to stay on the other side of the wall with the consequences of that or you might need to bolt the gate and walk away.
So, what does "you don't get to pretend like this never happened" mean. Obviously someone else can do that. What is your boundary with regard to divorce and the communication process about it?
For example, I decided last year that I did not see divorce as a first option without even talking so I would not file for D. My H did and he filed which means the consequences which are really hurting him now are owned by him. I decided that I would not contest it and I would do what was legally required to protect my interests, but I would not push it. I also decided that I would behave with dignity, honesty and respect, but I couldn't force him to do so. When he didn't, I would either use my L to challenge him or I would not participate in discussions with him directly. Equally I would not try to influence him to change his mind or ignore his right to make that choice.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
