Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 11 1 2 3 4 10 11
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 815
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 815
*Applauds* Now that's how it's done. Your advantage is that your W actually still gives a damn. She just wants her cake and eat too. Don't let up anytime soon. Now yoir being heavily pursued and was willing to even sleep on the floor. I'm interested to see if she will still make the trip knowing that she'll have to stay in her own hotel.


MR: 15 T:17
Me: 37 W: 34
S14
BD/PA/EA: 12/2016
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Quote:
I also thought you sounded a little "I told you so-ish" and seemed to focus on that ONE thing...


I was focusing on one thing........explaining to others why I suggested the surveillance. So, anyway, enough about all of that.

Quote:
I came back at 9:00 (well before our usual bedtime, thinking I could lay claim to the MBR) and she was already asleep, she'd fallen asleep with box of tissues and with her rosary.


I know I am suspicious, but it sounds as if the scene was staged for you to see. She knew perfectly well you cleaned up the MBR b/c you planned sleeping there.

Quote:
So I answered her third call. She wanted to know if we were leaving W night to stay over (college is about 2.5 hours away) and I said "yes, S18 will be staying in the dorm, I got a room at the __________ hotel. There are still rooms available if you are going and want to get one for yourself.) Loooooong silence. "Could I just sleep on the floor?" Me: "I dont really want to share a hotel room with you." Silence. Her (kind of meekly): "Umm, okay." More silence "I really wanted to talk to you last night" ME: "I'm not really interested in doing any more talking right now." Her (pushing through): "I wanted to say that I really, really f**ked up big time. I made a phone call yesterday, said i couldn't talk to him anymore... that I needed to figure things out with you." Me: "Okay, is that it?" Her: "Yeah, I.. I'll see you later." Me: "Bye". I kept a level tone of voice the whole time
.

I have one word for you. Perfect!

Quote:
She was not teary or anything, sounded like maybe she was trying to "joke it off" with the "can I sleep on the floor" comment, and sounded almost cheery (maybe not.. I'm just projecting I think because Im ticked off) when saying she'd called OM, like "this will make it all better". I just kept thinking to myself "really?" It almost sounded like "I can't talk to you until I have gone through some stuff with my husband, but I'll be back" rather than "I can never see or talk to you again." I can only imagine what the conversation actually was. Wouldn't surprise me if it were "Hey, we have to lay off for a few weeks because he's on to us again." No word about her extra phone.


Exactly!

You really did an excellent job in how you should respond. She wants to get off with doing as little as possible to secure the R with you, while maintaining her A. She'll cry, joke, flirt, etc., thinking it's worked in the past to bring you around, so it will work again. Previously, you may have seen those type of actions as some kind of baby steps from her. However, I think you are learning how this is just a con job. She needs to stay in the pursuit mode as long as it takes for her to see that you will not be fooled. When she is convinced, then she can get serious about doing whatever it takes to have a good MR.

This is an example of how to start changing the dynamics in the relationship.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
she staged the MBR thing with tissues and the rosary -so who. exactly, are the tears for? (A rosary? Really?)

then gave you some fake humility ("aww, am I grounded again for being late?? You're SO overreacting...") with the sleeping on the floor lie.


And the fake apology about the half ass call which you did not witness...

Ugh, seems like manipulation and continued deceit. I think any remorse/tears she may feel is saved for herself and the collateral damages of her choices...("oh damn, now the kids will be mad at ME and won't love ME the same way")

you made progress in how you handled her, (well done)

but I think she has made none.

Jim, This is not a woman going all in to save her marriage. I'm sorry.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 264
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 264
I am afraid 25yearsmlc is right. It doesn't sound like she is all in. In fact it doesn't even appear as if you get even a few positive interactions with her.

If this would be my sitch I would act very differently if this was the behavior I saw from my W.

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,064
H
hoosjim Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,064
Sandi, as always, thanks.

Quote:
I know I am suspicious, but it sounds as if the scene was staged for you to see. She knew perfectly well you cleaned up the MBR b/c you planned sleeping there.


Actually, I had not cleaned up MBR yet nor made any move or intention to reclaim it. However, point well taken. While I do not generally question her faith-- she was raised in a devout catholic family and is very devoted to the faith (or at least was before she started down this wayward path)-- a big part of me definitely thought breaking out the rosary was a bit, shall we say, overdramatic. Still, in matters of faith I have learned it pays to never lose your own, so I did say a prayer that in her prayers (assuming they were genuine) she would "find her way back to [God]" and "find the help with [God] that she is looking for", amongst other things.

At any rate, however, the whole thing still seems pretty insincere/phony to me.

And, MLC, I am sorry, but I really find your posts kind of relentlessly negative and demoralizing. Sandi beats me up and hits me with the occasional 2x4, but it is just somehow... different. I am sure you are trying to help, which of course I appreciate, but... doesn't seem all that helpful, and potentially harmful.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,064
H
hoosjim Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,064
Oh, and, FWIW, I sincerely believe that my W could at some point realize the destructiveness of her wayward behavior, truly commit to ending that behavior including her A with the OM... and STILL not be "committed to working on the MR". There was a long, long, long history of neglect, and a whole lot of pain, and I do not doubt for a second that she has been prepared to "Walk" for at least a couple of years, even before OM/A. If "we" make a comeback, it will be on the back of a "new" MR... not on what came before. And it my very well be that even the girl I originally married, even if restored to her right mind, would not want to commit to trying to reconcile with me.

She MIGHT want to, of course (though certainly not while in the throws of this affair), but I don't see that mindset as a prerequisite for her emerging from her wayward state and ending the A. (Even as i know that ending the A and emerging from her WW state absolutely IS a prerequisite for us reconciling, if that is ever to happen.)

At any rate, wanted to throw that out there as a lot of people seem to be putting stock in "she needs to commit to working on the MR" before I'll know she's sincere about NC. Not so sure that's the case. I believe she WILL want to work on the MR if her mindset ever changes (along, presumably, with the relationship dynamics) but don't think that that is at all gauranteed.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,064
H
hoosjim Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,064
Quote:
I am afraid 25yearsmlc is right. It doesn't sound like she is all in. In fact it doesn't even appear as if you get even a few positive interactions with her.

If this would be my sitch I would act very differently if this was the behavior I saw from my W.


Tobias, could you expand on ALL of this, please? I find it very unclear. Particularly what do you mean by: "In fact it doesn't even appear as if you get even a few positive interactions with her"

AND

How, at THIS particular point (I know I have screwed up in the past) would you be "acting very differently."

Thanks!


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 275
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 275
Jim, I haven't responded to you but I've been reading in the past few weeks. Here's some tough love for you, meant to help you keep making some progress:

The pattern I see from you is that every single hint of positive interactions with your W causes you to become invested in the idea that things are turning around. And then when you get feedback that contrasts that, you lash out, particularly if the feedback is from a woman. I don't think that's fair. Those who respond to you are trying to help you, and they are taking time out of their day to do so.

You constantly challenge Sandi2 and demand she explain herself when she tells you something you'd rather not hear. And it doesn't seem to be challenging her so that you can understand her (though you've gotten better about this), it seems to be challenging her feedback as valid. And now you've done the same to 25mlc. You are much more polite to male posters, and this bothers me a little bit and I have to speak up for my ladies.

I tell you the above because what seems like distrust and hostility toward female posters shows us you're not where you need to be. Your W is a woman, and I have to say that having women respond to you, particularly one who was once wayward, is something that you should feel gratitude about and welcome their feedback instead of sniping.

Women can be mysterious creatures. I am one, and I only started to realize some things about women - including myself - a few years ago. We absolutely do challenge men, and we throw out little tests to see how they'll respond. I do it. I don't even know why I'm doing it. We don't do it consciously, it's more like we're testing them for how much they'll put up with; I truly believe it is an evolutionary/instinctual thing, since it would benefit women to have a strong driven man protecting them and their home.

If a woman throws out these tests and the man constantly defers to her, and shows her he will do anything to avoid losing her, it's unattractive on a very deep level. Sure, we want to know he loves us and wants things to work, but he has to show us he loves himself more and that he will not allow us and our challenges to disrespect him. It is that quality that allows us to invest in him and want him to be our mate. He is showing us he has value as a man and he chooses us, but he does not need us. This will sustain a woman's attraction and respect.

I am not telling you that men have to be angry alpha males to sustain attraction. It's okay to want to live as an evolved man. But what men have to do is embrace their male quality of calm assertiveness, and to not let a woman's challenges work to where he shows her he can't/won't live without her. This is how the power balance can stay balanced, rather than shifting entirely toward the W.

With a WW, it's 100% worse. At that point, the challenges to her LBH have become consciously driven, and a failure to stand up for oneself as a man is very unattractive to the WW. She thinks she can give you just enough to keep you on the hook until she decides what she really wants, or has a new life set up.

And, Jim, it is right there where you've gone wrong in the past. You are being taken advantage of because you've let her take advantage of you. You do not meet her challenges knowing that you are a man who deserves his W's respect. You want to "nice" her back into the marriage, not truly understanding that this is a losing strategy, because you don't want to accept the way women operate when it comes to attraction.

If you were refusing to accept her disrespect, she'd be getting upset with you. That's a fantastic sign and is not something to avoid or fear. It simply means she's upset at the different response to her challenges, and so she's escalating them. Hold strong. You do no need to be mean to her or aggressively dominant; you do need to show her that you can and will live without her and that you will not have a W taking advantage of you as a man.

In general, when you feel anxious and angry reading feedback, you might stop and think about why you're having that reaction, rather than choosing to lash out. My guess is that you'll conclude that what you are reading contrasts with what seems like some magical thinking that this will turn around quickly, or that you can "nice" her back. And I don't feel that someone who has that magical thinking has done enough GAL, because the result of GAL is an understanding that the LBS will be fine, even happy, if there is no true R. Note how this corresponds to the man who is tested, who responds in a way where the woman knows his value.

You are on a long road, and your W has to show a long and consistent period of remorse, regret, NC with OM, and a willingness to do everything necessary to re-earn your trust. If it's not long and consistent, nothing has changed, and you keep your hopes in check. That's the majority of what you lash out at - when folks are trying to tell you that nothing has changed. It doesn't mean that it can't happen, just that posters realize when you're getting in your own way and are thus discouraging you. Posters can see the bigger picture that you can't see, because you're emotionally invested in it.

Truly, everyone means well. It's not okay to lash out. If folks thought your situation was hopeless, they wouldn't respond to you at all. I'm writing because I think it's possible, but it's time for a sea change on your part to give it the best chance of happening.

I want to give you credit, because that phone call was ABSOLUTELY AMAZING, and you need to keep that attitude consistent, despite any small signs from her. She's going to challenge you to see if you step up, and she's going to manipulate you into believing that she's seen the light so you'll go back to being "nice".

(And maybe she has actually seen the light, but you cannot allow yourself to trust it until it is a long period of consistency where she shows you she is working hard. Folks here should be able to help you understand when it appears authentic.)

Don't be afraid to tell her you want her to leave; it could be just what is needed to have her see you differently. Things won't improve until she sees you differently and understands that there's a new Jim in town and he's not putting up with her chit. It's a scary step to take, for sure, but there are plenty of people who have posted here that tells you that living separately is not the point of no return. What it does is to give a WW a view into the consequences of her selfish choices, and that view can very much work in your favor.

In the meantime, your W knows you very well and she knows how to do things to tug at your heartstrings to try to get you safely in Plan B territory, keeping her in her comfortable life while she has OM on the side. The tissues and rosary were a solid Oscar-worthy performance. (If women are telling you it's a manipulation, it's a manipulation. We know our kind.)

And it really feels like you refuse to see her as wanting to manipulate you, instead assigning small behaviors to the part of you that desperately wants to believe that "part of her" wants to save the M. It's understandable why you'd want to believe that, since it keeps you from acceptance and the grief you'd have to otherwise face if you accepted that your W has changed. You are being challenged by advice givers because your thinking is keeping you stuck and keeping you from making the progress you need to make for the best chance of happiness for you, regardless of what happens, and the best chance at regaining your W's respect and potentially having her - consistently over a period of time - pursue you to R.

Do you deserve to be Plan B, Jim? I don't think you do, and I think you should keep up your assertiveness with your WW about that absurd notion. Instead of channeling assertiveness (that ends up as unfortunate aggressiveness) toward female advice givers, channel it toward a WW who is acting selfishly and isn't being a good W to you.

Your W is having an affair. She is not acting honorably. She could have left the marriage and begun D proceedings before getting involved with someone new. Her actions and lack of integrity tell us that she is acting selfishly. Maybe she wasn't always this way, and maybe she won't always be that way, but this is who you are dealing with now.

Note that I am not judging her as a person; I'm sure you would not have married her and loved her as you do if she were always a selfish woman. But your memories of her do not jive with the reality of her, currently, and you seem reluctant to accept it.

These small little positive occurrences from her are relatively meaningless without a consistent pattern of improvement from her, and thus we can conclude that they are very likely to be manipulation attempts from a selfish W. That's why you're getting feedback you'd rather not get, because this is not going to rapidly turn around quickly. Discouraging feedback doesn't mean that people don't believe there's hope here; it's that you can't continue on the path you need to be on if you allow yourself to be filled with hope at these small occurrences. It makes you want to return to "nice" sympathetic H, and that works against your goals for your M. We're trying to urge you to be skeptical toward your W (rather than the advice givers) because that works in your favor in ways you seem to struggle to grasp.

That's my meta take on this. I do hope you're receptive to it, and I hope I haven't been hurtful or insulting (if I have been, please take an opportunity to be calmly assertive toward me, and practice embracing being a man who knows what he deserves. I will respond positively to that!)

(Sorry for the length of this. I guess reading and not commenting meant I had a lot to say!)

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,509
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,509
Cadence, thank you for posting that, it helped me to read your take on the woman's psyche.

Jim, i agree with everyone else, your recent actions have been spot on. Remember, you're not giving up on your M because you're standing up for yourself. I will caution you to keep an eye out for anger, I suspect your going to start feeling it a lot now (it is where I went when I got to this stage), it's important you not direct the anger towards your WW... Work through it on your own.


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
10/31/16 - We sold house
01/10/18 - D Finalized
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,064
H
hoosjim Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,064
Thinking about consulting a divorce lawyer, just to see what my options are and what I can and can't do (move out,etc) in my state without prejudicing my rights later. Divorce law is something I know practically nothing about, and a couple posters, sandi2 included, I think, had suggested on a couple of occasions that this might be a wise move.

Question is, do I tell my W? I am inclined to do so, particularly since I once told/promised her I would never start down that road in secret. Not like I think I owe her the truth or anything, BUT... quite possible it would not occur to her that I am that serious if I keep quiet about it...


Thank you cadence, that is incredibly insightful. Appreciate you taking the time.

As do I appreciate everyones time on here. I wish I had more myself to offer, but I feel like I have bungled things so often that my useful insights are almost nonexistent, though if can find a spot here and there to offer a supportive word, i try to do so.

I didn't feel my response to MLC was "lashing out" and I don't know that I have ever "lashed out" at Sandi, though certainly she and I have both voiced frustration with each other from time to time. I certainly have no "problem" with women, and particularly value the insights into womens' (and WWs') psyches on this board. If I indicate otherwise, I apologize. I am grateful for both Sandis and MLCs time and efforts... but I just honestly felt like her posts recently in tone and tenor-- content aside-- were unnecessarily demoralizing. Compare hers and Sandia most recent posts. Very common content wise but completely diilfferent tones. Sandi delivers ss mean a 2 by 4 as anyone at times, but still manages to be encouraging somehow, and isn't that supposed to be an important component of DB? Keeping a positive outlook and disposition? Perhaps I could have said it better/differently, because I do value everyone's efforts here on behalf of so many of us who are going through absolute hell, and I thought I at least kinda sorta indicated that. I certainly don't want anyone to stop posting (even MLC, if she is still reading)... just request/hope/wish for a more supportive/encouraging tone. I koq that can be hard sometimes under the circs, but, hey, I can dream, right. smile

Pleas accept my apologies for any offence I gave or breach of board etiquette.

Last edited by Cadet; 07/26/17 06:35 AM. Reason: Combine posts

H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Page 2 of 11 1 2 3 4 10 11

Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard