WW in A. NC promise broke. Separation? (5th thread

[hoosjim]

This is my 5th thread. Doesn't seem like I am making that much progress, but hoo knows? SHTF yesterday. We'll see. All comments welcome.

Here is my previous thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2750071#Post2750071

In a nutshell, my profile is down there at the bottom. After a long period of neglect, definitely classifiable as a "sex-starved marriage", my W began EA with a close friend last fall (first thought it was November, but have since found it was really October that all the texting started) after I had gone to him for help with my M and basically revealed my W's vulnerabilities. There had been warning signs-- she had come to me a couple three times over past two years telling me how sad/lonely/lost/dead-inside she felt, and I pretty much turned it back on her every time, though one time I did ask her "not to leave" when it looked like she was going to. Anyway, BD in January when I overhear convo between her and OM. I was weak and desperate at first, but within less than two weeks after BD was really doing a great job with GAL's and 180s, and W noticed. Problem was, she was not a WAW but rather a WW, wanting to enjoy the "girls gone wild" lifestyle. I didn't handle my interactions with her all that well for a few weeks, wavering between "pursuit" and enablement. Finally got buckled down. Looked like A was going to or had even already died of natural causes... and then something happened. Still dont' know what. A meet up or night out or party or something and it rekindled. W bought a burner phone which I later found out about. Beginning of June I tell her my boundary that "I wont share her or live in an open marriage". She indicates that cheater phone is gone and she will NC with OM. There is a big blow up night only a week later where she, I and her bff (also a WW and sometimes enable of my own W's affair) had too much to drink, said too much, and my W ended up sneaking out after we went home to meet up with bff and OM. She did NOT know I knew about this, and I did not confront her thinking we could "use a reset" based on events. I do put up some surveillance on her and late June, not long before we are to start intensive therapy, I "catch" her in two fairly intimate/emotional encounters with OM. I go dark for four days during which she pursues me relentlessly. She finally corners me into a talk where she talks about all the things SHE did wrong in our MR that led us to this point... and then I tell her what i know about her and OM. She then takes several steps (without promising me full transparency or committing fully to working on MR) that lead me to believe she is really "Trying" in her own way. This turns out to be false as of 7/23 when I find out she has purchased a second burner phone and she confesses to fairly regular text and phone contact with OM. I walked off and left her at car last night, slept in separate BR, and that's where we are.

[sandi2]

I think part of her does "want to work on it"... but not really all that strongly. Or, perhaps, she believes she can "work on us" while still maintaining a "friendship" with the OM. She has said something like that on several occasions, to her friends, to me, and even to our MC

Look Jim, you continue to chase your tail on this type of stuff. Ever since you started posting, you'll write about how you think there is a "part of her" that wants to do this or that.......or believes this or that. Forget it. A partial does not work! . That has been the snag throughout this ordeal. It really should not matter to you what she believes or thinks about working on the M while remaining friends with the OM. Do you think she is an extraordinary WW? I can tell you there is nothing about her that tells me she is an exception. She constantly plays you, and you continue to put up with it.

She kept saying last night she was "almost to cutting it off cold turkey" and she was trying to sort through this "the best way she knows how" and that she "doesn't know why she feels the way she does and is doing some of the things she's been doing."

She previously has said as much. So what? This is WW language that says, "I want to continue scr@wing the OM while benefiting from the M. I can feed this sh't to my H and he'll buy it, thinking I will eventually drop the OM". She has no intentions of giving up anything she wants.........don't you get it? Get your head out of her a$$ and start acting like a man who isn't going to take this cr@p.

There is still some rebelliousness there in her, too, and she told me as much "part of me just really wants to say 'this is how I am going to do this because everyone else is saying that's the way I shouldn't do it'", and she still is resentful of me monitoring her and wants to know "how I did it" (I didn't tell her) and also feels "pisssed off" that "this one thing" has now become "the big thing" even though we already had a lot of other problems. Of course, she is "sorry she hurt me" which, in my mind, is just a half step above saying "Im sorry you feel that way." Still feel like there is a good part of her that thinks what she is doing is "okay".

There is more than "some" rebellion! You say it as if part of the rebellion left. It hasn't.

She's been calling me and texting me non-stop today. Last VM she left was in tears. "Please call me."

When all else fails, turn on the tears. Straight out of the WW manual (if there was such a thing.......and there probably is on some website like AM or some similar trash).

Jim, if you are EVER going to take a stand that gives her a clear, uncompromising message that you have had it with her.........this is the time. If you compromise again, then your M is forever gone. The woman has zero respect for you, and as long as she can get what she wants from the M (a nice house, car, insurance, food, clothing, travel, etc., etc.), while she runs around on you......she will continue to cheat. She may even change AP's, but she'll continue the game.

This is not the time to show your soft, gentle, understanding side. It is the time to get tough and to be the one who says what goes on under his own roof. If she can't respect it, then one of you needs to leave. In-house S for your W is nothing different from what you've been doing all these years, unless it would be sleeping in separate beds. Why would you even consider it? It will accomplish nothing, but more disrespect. It is the ultimate cake eating for a WW! Is that what you want for the rest of your life.........serving cake to your WW?

Dont know if I'll need to walk away for 6 months or not. Depends entirely upon her. And I mean entirely. I am done riding that roller coaster

If you are really done, then do the actions they say so. You are too scared to walk away, and if I can see it, you can bet your WW sees it.

If she WANTS to end that A and can PROVE IT to me to MY satisfaction, then maybe i could somehow find a way to trust her and start moving forward but... not sure there is anything she could do right now that I could/would trust

Well, her old fallback is to tell you she just doesn't know what she wants. So far, that response has carried her through to this current situation. Whenever you allow yourself to start thinking how "part of her wants" such & such, you fall victim to that same mindset. See what I mean? It does not matter what part of her wants. She either does the right thing, or she doesn't. That is what you determine.

She has work to do. May need some IC, idunno.

Don't even go there right now. Don't mention any more counseling, b/c that got her nowhere with the previous C. Besides, if she thinks she can offer to see an IC, as some type of bargaining chip, I suggest you show no interest in whether she goes to see one or not. In fact, I suggest you show no interest in much of anything she says right now. She will try to blame other things for her lack of decency, so beware.

But she is not "relationship ready" right now. At least not for me. I deserve (and our kids deserve) better.

Yes, you do! And just let me add this.......when a WW believes she is losing something, or someone, that is of the upmost importance in her life.......it has a funny way of suddenly opening her eyes and getting her sh't together. As for the rebellion, it never left. She just set up smoke screens. The rebellion will be something she has to tackle, and you don't have to put up with it for a minute. That's part of the problem....you've put up with it.

Last night, I left her in tears and went to sleep in guest BR, but I had told her previously "she couldn't stay here" (meaning the house) which she bridled at because she "is trying to work on things with us".

Do you want to make this count? I mean, seriously make it count? Then stop saying the usual preachy NG stuff betrayed H's are known to say. "If you decide to work on the MR, then..........". Nope, none of that stuff. Just look her right in the eyes and say, "I don't want you here. Get your stuff and get out". Doesn't matter if you can legally kick her out or not. Please! It doesn't mean you can't tell her you don't want her there. It's about the hard, cold message you give her that she has split her pants and you will not take her cr@p anymore. And.......there are ways to let a person know they are not welcome, and they will usually find somewhere else to stay. The problem with most betrayed NG husbands I see on the board, is they are afraid to convey that message. They're just afraid, just like you are afraid to leave the house, and you try to find all these flimsy excuses for in-house separation. It is b.s.

The one, idunno, "encouraging" thing, if you want to call it that is that, on some level, she offered up what she had been doing on the phone voluntarily.

I'm sorry, Jim, but I think you are trying to see something that is totally not there. You found the phone! Of course she is going to offer some b.s. excuse for why she had it. It boils down to this........why does a W who is not in an abusive relationship, feel the need for so much secrecy? In WW language, privacy = secrecy. Yes, they use the privacy word all the time, but what they really want is SECRECY! When a WW gets serious about doing whatever it takes to save her M, the first thing to go must be secrerecy. That's one of the reasons behind having transparency. Affairs and other forms of wayward behavior thrieve on secrecy. Transparency works to tear down the secrets.

because she (bff) was worried that all my W's calls were being monitored and she didn't want me listening in on HER (bff's) business AND because she (my W) felt like she needed to be able to talk to her friends about her problems without looking over her shoulder

This is actually script out of the WW handbook. Not original, whatsoever.

Going to tell her I'd like her to sleep in Guest BR-- don't feel like I should be the one to have to leave the MBR.

That's stated waaay too weakly. How about, "I will be sleeping in the MBR, and you can sleep somewhere else, and frankly my dear, I don't give a d--- where". Then turn and march into the MBR and shut the door. For sure, don't start telling her how you feel you shouldn't have to be one to leave the MBR. That's so.....ugh! From this point forward, you can act like a whipped whimp who has to explain every move or thought he has.........or you can start acting like the MAN who is fed up with lies and betrayal, and that you deserve much better her.

You have to do something different this time, Jim.

[sandi2]

Well shoot! Somehow I manage to end up on the tail end of a thread. You had already started this new thread, but I didn't see it in time and wrote another very long post after you left the previous thread.

[Cadet]

Well shoot! Somehow I manage to end up on the tail end of a thread. You had already started this new thread, but I didn't see it in time and wrote another very long post after you left the previous thread.

I fixed it for you

[hoosjim]

Wow, sandi, thanks for taking the time to write all that AND post it twice. I will think (and pray) very hard on what you gave said.

And, honestly, FWIW, the more I think about it all the madder and madder I get.

When a WW gets serious about doing whatever it takes to save her M, the first thing to go must be secrerecy. That's one of the reasons behind having transparency. Affairs and other forms of wayward behavior thrieve on secrecy.

Oh, yeah, and that was one other beauty she trotted out last night: "You say you want total openness and honesty but you only want ME [meaning her] to live by that"... because i won't tell her how I monitored her and how I knew she was cheating... HAH!! Some gall, there.

This is not the time to show your soft, gentle, understanding side. It is the time to get tough and to be the one who says what goes on under his own roof. If she can't respect it, then one of you needs to leave. In-house S for your W is nothing different from what you've been doing all these years, unless it would be sleeping in separate beds. Why would you even consider it? It will accomplish nothing, but more disrespect. It is the ultimate cake eating for a WW! Is that what you want for the rest of your life.........serving cake to your WW?

And you're going to beat me up for this, but eff it, this is my marriage Im talking about and I want to make sure I understand all nuances, particularly from the folks who are counselling me that i absolutely have to kick her off the premises or leave myself: IT seems to me that your own sitch played out nearly the opposite... Didn't your H tell you NOT to walk out? That if you did, you wouldn't be coming back? What do you see as the being the difference there? TXHubby's sitch I am pretty sure i know what you'd say the difference is... that his situation is unique based on his particular temperament and almost religious devotion to disattachment while in the same house-- qualities which you have said you think I lack. But I am curious why the dynamics in your sitch seemed so different...

[25yearsmlc]

This is not the time to show your soft, gentle, understanding side. It is the time to get tough and to be the one who says what goes on under his own roof. If she can't respect it, then one of you needs to leave. In-house S for your W is nothing different from what you've been doing all these years, unless it would be sleeping in separate beds. Why would you even consider it? It will accomplish nothing, but more disrespect. It is the ultimate cake eating for a WW! Is that what you want for the rest of your life.........serving cake to your WW?

And you're going to beat me up for this, but eff it, this is my marriage Im talking about and I want to make sure I understand all nuances, particularly from the folks who are counselling me that i absolutely have to kick her off the premises or leave myself: IT seems to me that your own sitch played out nearly the opposite... Didn't your H tell you NOT to walk out? That if you did, you wouldn't be coming back?

Please stop using Sandi's case as your excuse to wait for your wife to have a seismic change in her. She is not Sandi. And you have not been like her h in any way.

Sorry to be blunt but this is too cyclical for me. Too repetitive. Too much of the same old...

Of course one of you has to leave. Clearest thing in your situation is that one of you has to get out.




What do you see as the being the difference there? TXHubby's sitch I am pretty sure i know what you'd say the difference is... that his situation is unique based on his particular temperament and almost religious devotion to disattachment while in the same house-- qualities which you have said you think I lack.


But you do lack those qualities. No offense b/c you have a lot of wonderful traits.

Also I think Tx Hubby is only unusual in that they remained in the same home but in

every single recon that i have seen

the would be LBSer (or actual LBSer) has dropped the rope and started to move forward. So the WAS actually truly feared losing their spouse.

Tx hubby's situation was like ^^^ that. He barely wanted to reconcile and if I recall correctly, he did not want to recon for a long time even when his w did the work. Even when she was acting with clarity and intention, neither of which your w is doing.

Your w is not under the illusion of losing you. In fact, she is not committed to being married to you. If she were committed to you or the marriage, it would not be "part of her"

b/c there's no such thing as a "PARTIALLY committed marriage".

And No, It's not relevant - NOW - how you got here. We know your behavior played a huge role in this situation, and for that you will always feel regret. Got it. Understood.

But that was then, this is now.


But I am curious why the dynamics in your sitch seemed so different...

I'm gobsmacked by this^^ question.

[LH19]

Jim,

I know legally you can't kick her out and I know you don't want to leave. Then what is your next move? I know you understand that must get your wife's respect back. Your boundary has been broken multiple times you have no choice but to enforce it! You will be in limbo for a very long time because she will gladly live off you while she continues to see OM. I know your afraid she'll run to OM but sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better.

[sandi2]

Oh, yeah, and that was one other beauty she trotted out last night: "You say you want total openness and honesty but you only want ME [meaning her] to live by that"... because i won't tell her how I monitored her and how I knew she was cheating... HAH!! Some gall, there.

Well, you know her goal there has nothing to do with the betterment of the MR. She does not need to know your sources. She is angry you caught her, and she wants to attack you and your source of intell. She is the cheater, so the burden of proof to become trustworthy is on her, not you. The WW will do her best to twist all of this around and even claim she isn't sure that she could ever trust you again. Keep a keen eye open to her attempts to shift blame and twist things to throw you off balance. This is about her unfaithfulness, her lies, her betrayal, and her untrustworthiness. It is not about how you acquired the information.

And you're going to beat me up for this, but eff it, this is my marriage

You know, Jim, it had been several days since I had posted on your thread. When I decided to clarify (for the sake of the other posters) why I had suggested that you took down the surveillance too early........I was surprised at your snarly response (and you even said it was snarly). I was not telling you, "I told you so" and I was not beating you up then, and I'm not beating you now. Why the sudden anger toward me, when I have literally spent days at a time posting to you and trying to help? Well, I marked it down as being the stress you feel, but if I'm wrong then say so. I have even told you that this is your M and your life, and you don't have to do what anyone suggests if you don't want it.

I want to make sure I understand all nuances, particularly from the folks who are counselling me that i absolutely have to kick her off the premises or leave myself: IT seems to me that your own sitch played out nearly the opposite... Didn't your H tell you NOT to walk out? That if you did, you wouldn't be coming back?

Please stop saying we are telling you to kick her off the premises.......when you've made it clear you cannot legally "kick her out". There is a difference in telling her you don't want her there, or telling her you want her to get her stuff and get out. That is not kicking her out. It's telling her you don't want her there and you want her to get her stuff and leave. Kicking her out, is physically forcing her out of the house or off the property and not allowing her access to the house.

No, my H did not tell me to NOT leave. He wasn't saying much of anything. I was the one throwing around threats, etc. He only commented on two things I said. 1) Like most WW's, I made the statement that if I decided to leave him, I hoped we would remain friends. His response was that there would be no buddy-buddy system and we would not be friends if I broke up the M. 2) I made another comment about leaving him for a while and possibly coming back if I realized I had made a mistake. He said that if I left, there would be no coming back. However, he never told me not to leave.

What do you see as the being the difference there? TXHubby's sitch I am pretty sure i know what you'd say the difference is... that his situation is unique based on his particular temperament and almost religious devotion to disattachment while in the same house-- qualities which you have said you think I lack. But I am curious why the dynamics in your sitch seemed so different...

No, I do not think Txhubby's situation is unique. He detached, GAL, and basically did what we tell newcomers will work! He reached the point he was fed up.......and he came dangerously close to the place of no return. Actually, based on the first post where he announced his change of attitude, I thought he had become a WAH. It's not unusual for the betrayed spouse to become the WAS while living in the same house, or after a R. He chose to remain in the house, b/c he didn't care. He never said they were in-house S. His attitude told her he was done, didn't care, and she had no affect on him. He was ready to walk at the drop of a hat. You don't have to sleep in separate beds, to do that. And that's when he changed the dynamics in their relationship. She saw she was losing him (and it seems he was leaving, or close to it) and she was begging him not to go. She became the pursuer, and he became the distancer. Yes, he detached.......almost too much. What works is changing the dynamics, and that's what he did.

My H was not trying to persuade me to stay. He did absolutely nothing that showed me that he wanted me to stay, or go (other than the two responses he made). He remained stoic during my "day of decision", so to speak. I actually did not come to a final decision that day, but as the other cards began to fall, I finally did. We never declared, or even discussed in-house separation, b/c I would never have gone for it, and neither would he. We did not go to a MC (which I wanted, but he refused). I was on the board every night until I could not hold my eyes open. The board was my therapy. I was learning from people who had had experiences with a wayward spouse. The only thing that may have been unique, was the fact I was the WW looking for advice. DBing is geared toward the spouse who wants to save the M. There isn't as much directed to the WAS......and even less for a wayward. But I was very blessed with some mentors who helped me a lot.

But I am curious why the dynamics in your sitch seemed so different...

Different how? In comparison to yours or someone else? The last time you asked about my situation, I wrote a very long post about it. I don't mind answering questions, but I don't understand what you are getting at, in your question above. Is the point you are trying to make is that since I did not separate, that I should not advise it for you? If that's the case, then say so. It takes time for me to write about my own situation, and if all you want in it is to say, "But you never left your H, so how can you tell me that's what I should do"? B/c I have studied this subject of waywards for ten years. I have seen what works and what doesn't work. In-house S doesn't work......especially as a way of enforcing your boundary. How could it? Physical S is not a guarantee your M will be saved, but it has a heck of a better chance than in-house S. What other choices do you have, if you plan to enforce your boundary?

If she will end her A and be willing to do what YOU need in order to heal the MR, then separation will not be necessary. So far, she has not been willing and she continues playing the game. if you declare in-house separation, it will be nothing new or no loss for her, and she will continue her rebellious behavior. Can you explain what she would be losing if you were in-house S. In-house S is not a separation at all, b/c you share the same home, food, bills, chores, etc. You are thrown together under the same roof. Maybe others have seen it work successfully, resulting in a reconciliation with a cheater, but I can't remember one case.

[Ginger1]

Jim,

everyone's sitch is different. The characters are different. There is not a one size fits all for this. In YOUR particular sitch, she YOU need to enforce boundaries and make it clear that you WANT her to leave. You may not be able to make her, but you should let her know that you want her to.

My cousin is having an A. Her H doesn't know about it, but he knows their M has been failing for a long time. he says ridiculous soft things to say save it, and she has said "his pussiness is so unattractive to me" I bet maybe if he would man up a bit, he might just have a fighting chance.

Truth be told, my cousin has always worn the pants. Always been in control. She is the bread winner and decision maker. She is seeing an older (married) guy, but she views him as a man. She is head over heels for this guy (none of this is going to end well and she knows it) but I have never ever seen her relinquish control and emotion like this before.

So, stand up for your M, be a man, not a guy who tolerates his wife running around him. Because she is. And the two of you separated under the same roof mean she has an excuse in her head that openly being with OM is fine now that you are separated, and you are present to take care of everything.

Heck, this might be the best situation imaginable for her.

[hoosjim]

Why the sudden anger toward me

Sandi, I'm not angry with you. I hate online dialogue because it lacks nuance and context and body language, etc. I AM stressed in general and a little on edge, yes. I also thought you sounded a little "I told you so-ish" and seemed to focus on that ONE thing... but maybe that was largely a function of the shortcomings of web dialogue I noted above. Anyway, I very, very, very much appreciate all the effort you put in to trying to help me and the others on these boards.

Today's update. After feeding kids, I went out last night, didn't say where I was going. She was laying in bed, crying on and off, praying with the rosary her grandmother had given her (or at least appearing to do so... she was holding it). I came back at 9:00 (well before our usual bedtime, thinking I could lay claim to the MBR) and she was already asleep, she'd fallen asleep with box of tissues and with her rosary. So again i slept in Guest Room. Today is her early day at work so she was up before me and left. She texted me twice and called me twice. Second text was about plans for upcoming college orientation this Thursday/Friday for my S18. So I answered her third call. She wanted to know if we were leaving W night to stay over (college is about 2.5 hours away) and I said "yes, S18 will be staying in the dorm, I got a room at the __________ hotel. There are still rooms available if you are going and want to get one for yourself.) Loooooong silence. "Could I just sleep on the floor?" Me: "I dont really want to share a hotel room with you." Silence. Her (kind of meekly): "Umm, okay." More silence "I really wanted to talk to you last night" ME: "I'm not really interested in doing any more talking right now." Her (pushing through): "I wanted to say that I really, really f**ked up big time. I made a phone call yesterday, said i couldn't talk to him anymore... that I needed to figure things out with you." Me: "Okay, is that it?" Her: "Yeah, I.. I'll see you later." Me: "Bye". I kept a level tone of voice the whole time. She was not teary or anything, sounded like maybe she was trying to "joke it off" with the "can I sleep on the floor" comment, and sounded almost cheery (maybe not.. I'm just projecting I think because Im ticked off) when saying she'd called OM, like "this will make it all better". I just kept thinking to myself "really?" It almost sounded like "I can't talk to you until I have gone through some stuff with my husband, but I'll be back" rather than "I can never see or talk to you again." I can only imagine what the conversation actually was. Wouldn't surprise me if it were "Hey, we have to lay off for a few weeks because he's on to us again." No word about her extra phone.

Grrrrrr....