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hoosjim Offline OP
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Well, coconut hit the nail pretty much exactly on the head: "I was just trying to be carefree and happy and have fun while with my family." Also: "I had alot of fun, it was nice, but I don't want to jump your bones."(and no, I didn't ask).

Finally, it sEems likely she was secret chatting on FB messenger with OM. On way back from gym I DM'd my don about college orientation coming up. Noticed wife was "on", which is unusual these days. As lso noticed OM was on. She was on couch on her phone and saw me through windows as I walked up front walk. She put phone down as I came in. I went to bathroom to shower, checked phone immediately. Both her and OM were then "off". She kept phone close rest of evening. She was standoffish after that, consistent with pasthma contacting OM episodes. No way to be sure or prove though.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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hoosjim: THAT last paragraph will drive you nuts. Can you bring it up to her? Could you perhaps mention how when you drove home you messaged your son?

Part of me wonders if she really wanted to speak to OM without you knowing she would find a different app. After all even if you didn't see her online you could check the last time either one of them was online.

This is a frustrating position to be in but it seems you struggle with trusting your W. She has given you plenty of reason to do that. But without trust it won't ever work. Maybe giving her more space and time to think about things might warm her up more.

In my sitch...our trip together was wonderful and W even did mention how it was nice to pretend everything was okay and we didn't have to focus on tough conversations. While back at home she has continued to be warm towards me. BUT I also now am much better able to give her space to "get more spoons" (anyone on here who is introverted knows the analogy). Could she be speaking to OM? Sure. But those thoughts will drive me crazy. I need to offer her a safe place to feel at home...once she does we can discuss about some of the things she needs to do (but the thing is SHE already does that).

So what coconut described and what you confirmed kind of happened may be true. But you have to ask yourself how much energy you want to put into making sure OM is out of the picture. AND you have to ask if you think making it work with her long term is worth it. Either way GAL. (And I fully recognize the irony of me saying that to you since I don't always do it myself.) But I recognize the fear and the doubt and the thoughts that might go through you when you saw them both online, you saw her put the phone away etc. That is rough. And no one can understand those feelings unless you have been through it.

At the end of the day if she said the weekend felt nice it might mean a small step forward. It might mean that she is right now thinking about the challenges but working herself back to you. Maybe she spoke to OM about needing to end contact. Maybe HE was bugging her. Maybe she was speaking to another friend. Maybe she feels really guilty about not wanting to jump your bones. Maybe she wanted to but was worried you would think everything is fine. Maybe... etc etc.

It is rough though.

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hoosjim Offline OP
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Thanks, tobias. Please keep posting on my thread. I find your words very stabilizing. I'll try to return the favor.

Also, quick crazy update: Is it mercury retrograde right now or something? Weird things continue to happen to and around me. Today at gym, I texted a couple of times with W, then put phone in pocket. When next I take it out, I see at text has been sent to her: "Divorce I I gain". WTF?!?! Of all the things to get mistakenly/inadvertently sent to my estranged W with whom I am trying to reconcile... Not sure how that happened, though "divorce" is my default first "autocomplete" word for "d" due to coming here so often. Guess texting app left opened in pocket had a life of its own, lol. Guess it could've been worse, like "Get out of my life you cheating wh**e" or something.

She was definitely, let's say, curious. blush


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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I am glad they are stabilizing (although of course keep in mind that I am still working on my own sitch...) there are a lot of wise people on here. Some of what I am writing is also in response to myself and keeping in mind that while there are differences that the approach that is recommended has a lot of overlaps.

I think the biggest difference in the advice is on "observe what happens and adjust your acting" and I think whatever overlap there is in our situations that the crucial difference is in that part and in turn that influences the GAL and detaching and 180s. AND in turn the reactions (not just words but actions) of our H/W.

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hoosjim Offline OP
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Dang it. I just can't trust her.

Maybe I should, but she has definitely not made any sort of rock solid commitment to the MR, and there are just too many doubts on the OM/A front. She easily could have seen him the two days she was beach with bff (OM was at a beach, too, just don't know which of the two near us, so 50-50)-- I will never know, though, as I had no surveillance on her. He MAY be calling her at work, or vice versa... I have no and will never have any way to check that, so relying on trust... of which I have little to none. She and bff have distanced somewhat in last week due to bff's AP's W blowing up THEIR A on social media and the blowback amongst our own circle of friends (all principles except for one, so six of seven, in this ridiculously entangled love triangle(s?) are or were fairly close friends), so that overlay is not currently a huge issue, though she could still be channelling communications to my W... although for the time being and for other reasons I think not. (Bff is not hanging with that other crowd very much if at all right now). HOWEVER, I have put back up some surveillance of her, mostly tracking her phone, from time to time just to keep tabs, and while she has not "gone" anywhere that could be a meet up, she has twice driven to really odd places at really odd times,way out of her way... and not stopped anywhere just turned around and came back. As if she thought about it and then decided not to. Suppose that would be a good sign, except... neither spot was a typical hangout or meet up spot previously, so there would have had to have been some communication with OM that would motivate her to go to those places, whether or not she actually went all the way through with a meet up. And, she's "pulled back" and is acting odd as well as changing her tune from "I don't want to jump your bones" to "I don't want to jump ANYBODY's bones", both of which are more indicative of her periods of surreptitious contact with OM.

So, I have a boundary. She knows about it. If I find out it has been violated, i would act. Immediately. Unfortunately, if she IS contacting OM, it is so far underground I am not sure I will EVER find out about it. Good news, I guess, if you can call it that, is that she "thinks I don't know", so no additional loss of respect for looking weak, but seems like that would be setting me up for an indefinite period of painful limbo. I'd rather just know and get it over with.

OTOH, suppose she really is NC-ing. Which is quite possible. Perhaps even the most probable scenario here. I could really burn some bridges by coming across all suspicious, questioning, etc. Let alone saying "let's split."

I am actually increasingly sympathetic to the "separation" paradigm, here, but not sure what my justification is if I don't know she's maintaining contact with OM. And no point in asking her if she is or not. Guess I could just say "Look, I appreciate what you've done, and I've enjoyed some of our recent time together, but... I just don't get the feeling you're committed to this MR and I am not willing to keep treading water her, especially given the circumstances (i.e. her recent infidelity and the continuing ambiguity about it.)


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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I am still not understanding. I think I have said this a few times before, but why are you killing yourself over surveillance and the OM when she hasn't even recommitted to the M?

Why don't you do yourself a favor, eliminate OM from your radar, stop snooping, and take a breather. If she actually comes to you and wants to work on the M, then you decide if you need to monitor her and OM. Right now, there is no purpose in you doing it. It's only going to drive you nutso.

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hoosjim Offline OP
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I just cant win with you people. Sandi2 says "you shouldn't have taken down your surveillance", you say "take it down". Yeeesh.

Why i am still checking is because I had good reason to believe she (W) was, in her own paradigm, trying to "work on us." Sandi2 suggested or at least implied that doing some "checking" would not be a bad idea, and I agreed. Problem is it has now added some uncertainty. So, yeah, detachment may be the way to go.

For the record, I am not constantly checking up on her/following her movements like I was previously. From time to time, though...


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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You are spinning all over the place in your head. I never like to go against Sandi's advice, so I won't. Maybe I missed what her version of "working on us" looks like. All I see is her cake eating and you spinning around about contact/no contact/OM.

What I see is someone constantly spinning and putting all his mental energy into OM and contact for a woman who hasn't committed to anything and is looking awfully suspicious and doing her own thing with her BFF.

I still the most likely way you are going to get anywhere is moving on, quite honestly.

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Jim,

Can you give us some examples of her "working on us"?

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Ginger is right, she hasn't recommitted to MR, so your killing yourself making sure that she isn't with OM, which doesn't matter if she doesn't want to be with you anyway.

I don't think I've ever known sandi2 to say that you should continue to snoop after finding out about the A and before the WW wife shows remorse. Once you know about the A, there is no gain in snooping until it is needed to trust but verify.

Let me ask you a question, if your wife didn't talk to you for the next week, would you "move on"? what about the next month, 6 months, year? my point is that you backing away from your wife and focusing on you isn't going to make her give up if she wants you... But it WILL help save your sanity. If neither of you is going to move out, how about you just start doing your own thing.

no more family time, spend that time with friends or meeting new people... Put 100% into your relationships with friends and families, it sounds like a lot of them know about what's going on, so they won't hesitate to accept an invite from you, nor would they find it strange for you ask to come over and spend time with them. Get away from her and spend your time focusing on you.


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
10/31/16 - We sold house
01/10/18 - D Finalized
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