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Treasur Offline OP
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I read this on an old post by beatrice - for any of us who doubt...sounds spot on, and sad but reassuring to know that so many different people experience such similar things

"I think the term MLC encompasses a wide range of behaviours - and certainly the person going through it isn't acting in a mature way - There may be 50 ways to leave your lover, but an affair is never a good idea.

For me there are a number of 'tells' - one is totally uncharacteristic behaviour. People other than the immediate family are shell-shocked.

Another is total disconnect with their previous life, activities and friends. They drop the marriage and their former life. Maybe keep up with one or two people (who were not necessarily in their pre-MLC inner circle)

In many cases (not all) they are raging and vengeful at some point, and will seek to asset strip their family and spouse.

In other words, in MLC they flip out into being someone else that we, the immediate family, and their closest friends simply do not recognise at all. They are like an alien in your spouse's skin, they have dead eyes and no empathy at all."


Me: 53 H:38
T:20 M:14
BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression
S 1/16
PA 4/16
H filed 1/17

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Originally Posted By: Treasur
Thank you to both of you. I suppose you have to get smarter or bust, right!


Treasur

not everyone is ready to hear this, but you might be. Check out the ... website for some guidance and translation/explanation for your h's behavior.

I'll write more later, but I'm your age and as you know, it's not as if life is eternal and waiting for years for someone to "wake up" or "go back to who they were" is the correct path. I spent a decade thinking our m was reconciled...

More & more I think it's not the right path.

But that's just me.

((( )))

Last edited by Cristy; 08/04/17 07:47 AM. Reason: As stated in our OnLine Community Board Rules, we do not allow recommendations of non-DivorceBusting books / websites / blogs etc

M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Treasur Offline OP
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Hello 25 - have looked at some of the... stuff but will look again.

I suppose where I am is pulling myself out of losing my father, my husband and my mother within 6 months. To be honest, there were plenty of times when I didn't know why I kept going at all. Hardest thing, almost unbearable.

I miss all of them and sometimes the universe just doesn't feel right. But I am still here and there are still small joys and people who care about me. With my H? I have to say no to the rollercoaster because it is too dark and I've lost hope for him. I've always known it wasn't about me, although it's hard to keep telling yourselves that when they are so shockingly cruel. I know he loved me. I know he's broken. I know right now he is at best indifferent to my existence; at worst, he seems to like hurting me. To be honest, painful as it was that he refused to see or speak to me for months, it meant I didn't have to see the shell of a man he is. Because that hurts too.

I know I have to walk away to rebuild something. I'm too battered by grief for my family to have enough energy to Stand or to hope. But sometimes, I'm just frozen for a moment in bewilderment that the man who treasured me wears the same face as someone who didn't care that I got death threats from his new woman...the WTF craziness of it is just overwhelming. If I was 33...I'm not sure I would have survived it. At 53, I can't invest another two years or more in the limbo of WTFland. But it is heartbreaking to see what a horrible mess he has made, as he called it a couple of weeks ago.

Last edited by Cristy; 08/01/17 09:19 AM. Reason: As stated in our OnLine Community Board Rules, we do not allow recommendations of non-DivorceBusting books / websites / blogs etc

Me: 53 H:38
T:20 M:14
BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression
S 1/16
PA 4/16
H filed 1/17

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Treasur Offline OP
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Journalling, I guess?

Read a post which made me start thinking about who I was pre-M, during my M, since BD/WTFland and now...and what kind of woman I want to be for the next bit of my life.

Some bits of me have always been there - I'm intelligent, kind, and a bit of an impatient 'fixer' who likes logic and impractical shoes. Bits I lost in my M? Independence, being quick to action, boldness - I traded some in for good respectful reasons because I was part of a team with an H who is more given to procrastinating and more risk-averse (although MLC has certainly changed both our risk profiles!) but I traded in a bit too much of it. Why? Because tbh I always thought my H was slower and weaker...squirming a bit now...which means that there were some ways in which I didn't respect him actually...now really squirming. All on me? No. STBXH was an equal player in a 'poor old H' game (not just with me and we did discuss it pre-BD). Crumby game because I felt impatient & frustrated so it sucked me into 'fixing' which also made me feel manipulated. He resented feeling controlled but got to avoid responsibility and conflict.

Post-BD/bereavement me? Well, flailed around with the logical fixer bit for ages...until it was pretty obvious that grief and what was happening in my M were not 'fix' things and that logic was 95% useless. (It did help me not blame myself and it did help me know some of what was just grief etc) Then? I was just broken. Nothing in my life made sense. I didn't make sense. I did learn that I could be more patient than I thought! I learned to let myself feel things I didn't want to and be more honest about the mess of feelings I had. I learned that I was much weaker than I thought but brave in a different way. And more frightened and alone than I've ever felt. I felt like a victim and I hated it, but actually it was true that I was a victim of a ton of things - cancer, dementia, my H's implosion - I couldn't control. There were plenty of times when I thought I was losing my mind. My faith got stronger as did my compassion for others. I have a Crying 101 certificate now when before I was a bit of a 'daddy's girl' who thought being strong was about being rational and unemotional. Apart from with my H funnily enough...as I am more comfortable about looking facts in the eye, he has always been better pre-BD/MLC at being comfortable with emotions.

And right now, who am I? And who do I want to be? Not sure...more independent, way less of a fixer, quieter, calmer, still fab shoes...hmmm, need to think some more

And right now?


Me: 53 H:38
T:20 M:14
BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression
S 1/16
PA 4/16
H filed 1/17

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Treasur Offline OP
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Anyone else struggle with looking honestly at their part of the M vs feeling love for their H and his part vs feeling angry as hell at how their H has treated them?


Me: 53 H:38
T:20 M:14
BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression
S 1/16
PA 4/16
H filed 1/17

Joined: Apr 2006
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Originally Posted By: Treasur
Anyone else struggle with looking honestly at their part of the M vs feeling love for their H and his part vs feeling angry as hell at how their H has treated them?



yes ^^^^

huge pieces of this struggle are

1) the gross injustice of it, AND the irony/insanity that h sees himself as the hero & me as the villain,

2) what was real/fake, and when?

3) how much cognitive dissonance/dishonesty existed on the spouse's part,

4) me trying to improve as a person "anyhow",

5) while also secretly hoping to win the "pick me" dance, that we simultaneously know we should not have to compete in!!

6) not waiting around for them to "get it/see the light/do the right thing" and accepting that for the foreseeable future, my h $ucks as a father and is gone as my h.

7) learning to embrace the upsides of the situation and discovering what I - 25 - want in life. Feeling better, too. How?

Detachment is -for me - the one thing that consistently seems to increase my happiness levels.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,509
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For me it took a year to really accept my part in the failure of M... Sure, I thought about things I did to participate in the failure before, but I always would include the "but I only did that because she...".

It really hit me hard when I "got it".. When I realized what I did, or didn't do, in my M (without trying to attach reasons I did it). When I finally saw it for what my part was, it made me feel sad and to be honest a little disgusted at myself.

Several times I said to my wife that if she wasn't happy in our M, then she should of done something to work on it or end it, instead of having an A. The day I really understood my part, I realized that I wasn't happy and I too didn't do anything to fix it or end it, instead I further distanced myself from my spouse.


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
10/31/16 - We sold house
01/10/18 - D Finalized
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Reliving what we did, didn't do, the shoulda woulda couldas, etc in our marriages is, to me, just wasted effort. We can't change the past.

Those thoughts occupied far too many of the remaining brain cells I had in my feeble little man brain. Yes, hard to stop but it can be done.

As someone who suffered through an MLC, I could offer my insight but everyone is different. I don't know your H. My crystal ball died after hooking it up to the 220 dryer plug.

Here is some questions I have...

What are his motivations to want to "talk properly"?

Just what does "talk properly" mean to him?


“Things turn out best for the people who make the best out of the way things turn out” ― Art Linkletter

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Treasur Offline OP
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MrCAS
What are his motivations to want to "talk properly"?
Just what does "talk properly" mean to him?

First answer (without borrowing AndrewP's mind-reading turban!) is I don't know.

I asked. He said
"it's a horrible mess I've made and I want to salvage something kind from the mess, but I don't know how to do that and I worry I'll mess that up too"
"having the £ stuff to deal with makes some conversations awkward...finding it all very difficult"
"want to chat to keep the communication door open...not about anything substantive, just to talk every other day on the phone...we could set up a schedule and take it as it comes"
"it may surprise you that I think about you every day"

"completely understand your point of view (after I'd said no thank you)...the onus is mine....I hear what you say but I won't accept the paradigm that this will be the last time we speak"
plus lots of IDK..."I can't explain"..."it's just a feeling" standard MLC blah

So back to your questions...
What are his motivations to want to "talk properly"?
Just what does "talk properly" mean to him?
[/i]
The second? To chat on the phone every other day about the weather etc starting at 10 minutes and talking for longer each time...until the financial stuff is agreed...and then to start talking "properly" about "real" things (no idea what these are, he couldn't/wouldn't say)
The first? IDK...based on what he said? He wants to keep a door open. He's finding the £ stuff difficult. He wants to 'salvage something kind from the mess' (no idea what that means) He doesn't want to accept the 'paradigm' of never speaking to me again. (weird choice of word)

Mind reading? Obviously something had shifted in his head or situation that caused him to want to talk to me and chase me to do so. Maybe temporarily. He sees a horrible mess, doesn't like it but doesn't know what to do. The £ stuff of the divorce process has forced him to look at realities in black and white that he has been avoiding looking at for a long time and it hurts or bothers him in some way. Best I can do!

Me? I thought hard about it.
1. Talking would have helped with the limbo last year. Talking even a few months ago would have helped with some of the practical stuff after he filed (and then did nothing) in Jan. But given his refusal to communicate with me directly, I had found a way to press on regardless with both. So, too late to be practically useful really.
2. I'm tired of the WTF shockwaves...and I have been shocked & distressed by some of the facts the £ process has shown me. Detaching, other than the practical facts I need to deal with legally, protects me from more WTFs. But just as my accepting reality is part of my route forward, probably the same is true for him. It is an old 'fixing' pattern of mine to shield him a bit and I'd be doing no favours to the person I still love to do that now. If he is ever to 'recover', he needs to see the reality of the mess he's made and choose to deal with it or not, I suppose. Same for me. It hurts and it is hard and I'm sorry for both of us.
3. We agree it's a horrible mess but I can't change his bit of that, only mine. And his actions & responses in the legal process are just as unreasonable and less than honest as they were a month earlier. And my gran used to say that 'fine words butter no parsnips'...there are things he could do in the process if he wanted to 'salvage something kind' and no sign of him actually doing any of them as yet
4. On the 'quacks like a duck/you can't reason with crazy' principle, it just feels crazy to me that after almost a year of refusing to communicate directly at all, we start 'chatting' a few weeks from our D being finalised. And if it feels crazy to me, it's probably coming from a crazy place.
5. There was a risk that I would con myself into believing my own 'story' and it would hurt me more, the terrible temptation to see breadcrumbs as cake. My H has lied to me. I don't want to lie to myself. And his 'open door' is a door to WTF world for me.
6. And the biggest reason in the end I calmly said no thank you? MLC or not, my H has lied to me and treated me as not worthy of respect or value. IRL (just about remember that!), I wouldn't chat to someone like that unless I could see them doing things consistently to earn my trust. Even being compassionate about why they might have acted that way. To have self-respect, I have to not collude with being treated as worthless. It may be true that for my H, both me as a person and our M are worthless. It is certainly how he has behaved. But I don't believe it is true so I need to act like that. Which is what I said to him calmly pretty much, although I think he 'heard' something different...but that's not my problem.

So, I was/am comfortable that saying 'no thank you' was the right choice for me. For him? No idea what or why really, so I don't know if it is good for him. I suppose I think if it isn't, he has some different choices he could make.

And under all of this...I miss my H and (most) of the man he was. I hate WTFland. I hate having to accept that he is now capable of doing some of the things he has done, and that it has stained his life as well as mine. I mourn for our M, and for the real love and friendship we had.


Me: 53 H:38
T:20 M:14
BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression
S 1/16
PA 4/16
H filed 1/17

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Treasur Offline OP
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25 - yup, it's like Alice in Wonderland, isn't it? And some of my thinking about it made me a bit loopy at times.

1) the gross injustice of it, AND the irony/insanity that h sees himself as the hero & me as the villain. IDK if my H sees me as the villain. Don't think he sees himself as the hero, maybe OW is the heroine? I think he sees himself as broken, trapped and a victim. And yup, the unfairness of it is hard to take so I've been training myself to let go of my own belief that acting 'well' inspires others to do the same!

2) what was real/fake, and when? This drove me crazy and ripped my guts out. I treasured our M and my H, and it felt like someone had erased 20 years of my own reality. That I decided to fight for. I know in the calmest bit of my heart that my H loved me deeply. I know our M wasn't perfect but it was real...until it wasn't. It is not rational to think that someone can fake that for so long, and I certainly wasn't faking it. So I decided to just say that my memories and opinion was enough for me. In more recent times, yes, there is a bit of me that wants to know what/when...and feels angry that perhaps while I thought it was 'just' a MH issue, that may always have been a smokescreen for it really being just the A with OW cliche. That I was worrying about him killing himself while he was worrying about getting laid! That I was a fool. But then I think, after 19 years of love when I had no prior reason to doubt his love or fidelity, it's reasonable to have thought the best of my H first. I was wrong, but it was reasonable and what I would have hoped he would have done for me.

3) how much cognitive dissonance/dishonesty existed on the spouse's part, Gah, no idea...lots? I've seen some weird stuff from him at the beginning when we were still in contact...enough to see that he wasn't 'normal' either for him or 'normal' people. It's hard to do but I've had to accept a) IDK and b) best starting place is probably the believe nothing they say/50% of what they do thing. Even now in the legal process, I see silly lies, memory issues etc. I suspect he doesn't know either.

4) me trying to improve as a person "anyhow", yup, there is a 5 year old bit of me that wants to stamp my foot at this! And a wiser bit that knows that I wasn't entirely happy with my life pre-BD and that it isn't a coincidence that the situation is forcing me to look at what I want and who I want to be now. But it's hard and sometimes I do resent it.

5) while also secretly hoping to win the "pick me" dance, that we simultaneously know we should not have to compete in!! Not sure this is where I am now, but I was. And it was a bit weird because I've never felt that since losing my first love as a teenager! Hmm, hubris! M makes things different, I think, that mix of love and obligation and practical entanglement. Of course I do hate the OW a bit...being human and all..but I don't feel 'in competition' or that she is more than a symptom, even if he decides to stick with her. Knowing my H, he will just be trying to delegate his 'fixing' to someone else and another person's lifestyle...epic MLC fail of course but not my monkey as someone else said. I'm at that funny LBS stage now where I truly love the core of my H but accept I don't know who he is now (and don't much like what I see!). When I accept my old M is dead, assume he won't want to try to make a new one because he isn't brave enough, and I'm not sure if I have enough energy or belief in him to want to do the hard work anyway. Odd place to be. Only got there in the last month or so, so not sure where I'll go with it. Right now, I don't feel 'pick me'...

6) not waiting around for them to "get it/see the light/do the right thing" and accepting that for the foreseeable future, my h $ucks as a father and is gone as my h. Standing vs waiting is a funny line, isn't it? Hope vs acceptance. Figuring out what you CAN do vs the things you CAN'T. And the MLC timescales are a killer for me...I read some stories about people piecing after 3 years, and then going through BD2? I barely survived this...yay, well done me!...the idea of doing it again is horrific. I read somewhere, maybe Mach1 posed it (he asks some REALLY good questions)...Would you go through hell to get to your H/W on the other side? My answer was 'yes' and I do feel I have done that. Would you go through hell if you didn't know they would be waiting on the other side? Not sure.

7) learning to embrace the upsides of the situation and discovering what I - 25 - want in life. Feeling better, too. How? It's such a long tough road that I think it's hard to see the progress you make. Or to feel anything other than irritatingly Pollyanna-ish as you look at the upsides. Or figuring out what you want in the middle of the storm when all the things you want you can't have. I have made progress from 20 months ago, some good, some not, but things are not the same. Pollyanna stuff? Tough to see the upsides of losing my whole family simultaneously, but there are some. My H didn't kill himself which was a real possibility in the first 6 months, would have left me with much of the same rubble but no hope for him at all. (Mind you, would have had the insurance and no D paperwork!). I could have died, came close a couple of times, and then I would never know how the story unfolds. We don't have kids which must be unbearably hard. Having a Vanisher does make day to day detachment easier and keeps some of the WTF reality away, but it also makes it harder to let go of your mental picture of the H you knew. I do like my new little house by the sea though! I think the hardest thing is figuring out what you really want when you're surrounded by things you don't want screaming for your attention. Hence, the time being a gift saying, I guess. Still figuring that out but it has moved to the centre of my screen whereas for over a year, my H and my bewilderment were at the centre.


Me: 53 H:38
T:20 M:14
BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression
S 1/16
PA 4/16
H filed 1/17

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