WAW, is there hope?

[KGuy]

Been lurking on here awhile and posting some advice when i can help. Have been through most of Cadet's links and ordered the DB & DR book as well as started reading whatever i could find online for awhile now. I had started to write up a summary, but it turned into a book. Saw someone had bullets, so i will try and make it shorter that way.

-Marriage 4 years, together 10
-After Marriage , W insisted we move into a house we buy together, both our other houses require some work to fix up to sell. We compromised on the house features, but she mainly got what was on her list of features
-W has 3 kids (S17, S14, D12) from a separate marriage (that marriage broke up when the youngest was ~18 mo. Those kids lived with us.
-I have 1 D20 from another marriage who does not live with us
-There have always been kid issues between us. Typically mixed family stuff but we worked through, although not perfectly from either side.
-After Marriage, we had a Daughter (now 3.5) together
-Although closer to sell/rent, her house has her Mom in it o i concentrate on trying to get my house in shape
-At the beginning of Marriage, I spend quite a bit of time on my house trying to fix it to rent/sell as we are levered pretty good to get the house together.
-when 1st Daughter was ~1.5 y/o we had serious problems and wife wanted a divorce, i pushed for MC which we did. I basically found out what she wanted and gave it to her (mostly). We went to MC (2 different ones) and worked out differences.
-Most likely differences were solved because we were once again expecting. 2nd Daughter now 18mo
-W has been attending classes. In trying to figure out what was going on, i read some disturbing things in her class notes that led me to believe she has been planning divorce for quite some time. The (2nd) MC has confirmed this.
-Problems with Marriage throughout last half of 2016. These generally came and went (could time them to the month), but got worse as the year ended, then went to separate BR the first of this year.
-W wants to end Marriage again and wants to go to MC for "exit strategy". I refuse and will only go if we work to wards Marriage.
-MC sessions begin to turn to "exit strategy", after stressing i only was there if we were working to be together, i finally walk out in the last 15 minutes of the last one where she is discussing how she would leave (move in with her Mom's temporarily, then find a house and buy it (more on that later)
-when 2nd Daughter was 13 mo, wife was very insistent on breast feeding. almost to the point of terror if she didn't on one or two occasions
-had an argument 3/16/17 which involved a struggle between us where W assaults me. Ending situation W moves out to her Mom's (next door)
-W cut communication, i tried to talk to her to reason with her and work it out, but effectively she cut all lines of communication
-Turns out the W filed next day, but i wasn't served until i started a Parent-Child suit (only, no divorce filed on my part) to get access to the youngest which i was denied any time other than a couple hours at a time. I had the 3 y/o however. My screw up here was telling MIL something was coming.
-served with D 3/24/17 and things move quick from there
-4/13/13 1st mediation meant to be for Temporary orders, W goes for a final order. Not to her liking though so we stalemate because she wants more money
-I prepare for worst with Lawyer and prepare for Temporary hear on 4/18/17. W and her L come up with another offer and postpone the trial and again want to mediate.
-5/12/17 we once again mediate. Come to an agreement for D that includes reasonable visitation and not so unreasonable -i now have draft finalized "final" divorce decree, but haven't had the heart to go through it thoroughly to ensure it is correct. I don't want this. W seems set on it.
-W has put allot of effort into her house and just got it on the market
-in the mediated agreement, i get the marital house, and have been trying to straighten it up from how it was left and also have been working on my house to sell it.


Thats all the highlights. After she moved out (and before), I did a few things opposite of the "rules" like buy mother's day flowers (she also sent a card over from the D3). I have been a little upset at this and basically trying to recuperate ii stayed home. Since she lives next door, she surely has seen that i didn't GAL.

When not with the kids, I've been trying to GAL now though by focusing on getting the properties in shape, i went to a divorce support class, reconnected with some guy friends at work (and also some other friend)s, and am starting to join groups. After sulking, i'm now able to communicate a little better with W ( i was very short with her and got annoyed when she still tried to tell me what to do with the kids).

Its my theory that, although there are some serious underlying issues that we worked through not perfectly (on both sides), W is (and was 2 years ago) suffering from a breast feeding withdrawal as well as a newly mobile baby. She has issues with:
-the house was a mess.
-I had spent quite a bit of time away from the house to get things done with the other property when the 1st D was young. I tried to take over once i got there, but not enough i know.
-I would get home late from work and although i basically took over all the things required for the kids, it may have been less than she wanted
-My work took me away from house on occasion causing issues (usually came back to a mad W)
-She thought i was too strict on her children requiring them to pick up after themselves. She said they hated me (except the youngest which i think of as my own daughter).

Of course i have counters and justifications for all the above, but i realize that it alienated her and i didn't compensate enough.

Now, here we are almost four months after her filing and our 4 year marriage (10 year relationship) will be gone it appears. My head is spinning still. I liked the quote i keep seeing bounce around here that the old marriage is over, but the possibilities that a new marriage would begin sounds good to me. I've pretty much resigned myself that the marriage will be ended since it is moving so quickly, but have hopes that she will possibly come around after the baby funk is all gone or that she'll realize that we could afford the things she wants because we were a team. I'm now unsure if i want the latter to be a reason for her coming back, but i do still care about her and almost hope for any reason. In the end, i am sad for how this will affect my 2 daughters. I flip flop though and sometimes just tell myself i could do better as she can be pretty self centered (even without the baby funk) and has issues. Still I married her and even now still feel devoted to her. I feel that she effectively is sick and i want to honor the vows i made before God, in particular "in sickness and in health".

I was doing pretty good with applying what i've learned both here (all the links Cadet puts in right after someone posts), other forums, and some books I've gotten so far. I was of the mindset that what happens happens and all i can do is improve myself and if we are meant to be, the ball is in her court. However, today i saw one of our neighbors at the community 4th event that the W is good friends with today and i couldn't help myself to blurt out things that really showed my hand (things like i was hoping for the marriage back, that the MC agreed with me, etc.). Any advice is welcome of course and i'm sure this may be to condensed to get a full picture (then again maybe the more i know, the more i myself justify).

[Cadet]

Welcome sounds like you don't need the links post, let me know if you want it.

Glad you decided to post your story.

[KGuy]

Hey Cadet,

Read most of them, thanks for posting

What i need is to get the mail sped up to get those books...lol.

[sandi2]

Welcome aboard. What are the ages of you and W? Did she ever give you a significant reason for wanting to end the M?

How are you doing while living right next door to your MIL and W? May be handy for the kids, but I tend to think not so good for the adults.

Has your W always been a SAHM since living with you?

Do you feel as if your life was mainly geared in pleasing your W, and if she did not get what she wanted, she could make the home life miserable? You told us about your shortcomings. Is there any other issues? Either of you ever guilty of inappropriate behavior with a member of the opposite sex?

I think you said she was attending classes. What type of class?

Sorry for so many questions, just trying to grab hold of some things.

Any particular type of help are you wanting to receive?

Be sure to post often, and it help keep your thread more active with replies.

[AnotherStander]

Hello KGuy, welcome to the forums! It sounds like you are very well prepped coming in which is great You've already done a ton of reading so well done!

Now, here we are almost four months after her filing and our 4 year marriage (10 year relationship) will be gone it appears. My head is spinning still.

And it will be for a while. That's normal. Just try to focus on you and what you can do to become a better person.

I've pretty much resigned myself that the marriage will be ended since it is moving so quickly

It sounds likely, but as we're fond of saying around here D is just a piece of paper. It can actually help your sitch because afterwards your W may start realizing that D wasn't the answer and it didn't solve all her problems. That can trigger the internal discovery that a lot of WAW's need to go through.

I flip flop though and sometimes just tell myself i could do better as she can be pretty self centered (even without the baby funk) and has issues.

Well that does happen a lot, by the time the WAS starts coming out of the fog and thinking about recon the LBS has moved on to the point where they don't want a relationship anymore. I wish more LBS's took a long term view and said "I'm going to give this a couple of years before I start a new R or completely give up on this" because often it does take that long or longer for the WAS to come around.

I feel that she effectively is sick and i want to honor the vows i made before God, in particular "in sickness and in health".

Try not to look at it as something being wrong with her, because you need to own your part in it and work on improving yourself. DBing isn't about simply waiting it out, it's about making yourself into something new. More attractive, more independent, stronger. Give your W a reason to want you!

[KGuy]

Hello Sandi, and thanks for your responses. Yours are especially helpful since you were on the other side essentially and might give me more insight of what she is thinking.

Welcome aboard. What are the ages of you and W?

I'm 50, she turn 44

Did she ever give you a significant reason for wanting to end the M?

She has stated all kinds of reasons. The actual filing took place after she wrestled with me over a phone (torn my shirt, kneed me in the groin, pretty bad stuff). That was only a catalyst though, she says i don't respect her and compares our marriage to other friend's marriages and how they do things (finances, treat their kids, outings, etc.) within their marriages. She stated the things listed above, but she mainly had the most issue with
-the house was a mess.
-I would get home late from work and although i basically took over all the things required for the kids, it may have been less than she wanted
-She said and i didn't love her kids thought i was too strict and treated them like slaves

Funny thing about the first bullet is that she took pictures of all the mess. At the time i was going to the counselor alone and i pointed out that all the pictures were of her things scattered everywhere. When we had a session together, she said she had no place to put it. Funny thing is that this new house (to us) we bought together has less living and storage space than my house i owned before the marriage. I see her point that we needed a fresh start and i don't put as high of a priority on cleanliness as most i'll admit.

How are you doing while living right next door to your MIL and W? May be handy for the kids, but I tend to think not so good for the adults.

From the adult perspective, not good! Early in the marriage, the MIL was living in our house! So moving next door wasn't as bad as that! I tend to want to peek out there to see if the W is there. I have to hold myself back and tell myself that it doesn't matter at this point. In fact it might be better if i didn't know. At other times, i avoid going out there because i don't want confrontation. This house has grown on me and i like it (well mostly), but i have thought of selling it and getting away from here. Still, the kids know this as their home, so having it keeps consistency for them at least. While we were struggling over custody issues, she would come out and try and take photos if i left the car running with the kids in there to run inside and get one last thing. Our driveways are right next to each other as well making it even more difficult. The BR she is sleeping in is directly facing the driveway.

From the kids perspective, it is very confusing. The 3 y/o will try and come outside to see me if she sees me in the driveway. I've told her that she is more than welcome to come over even if only for a hug, but that she should ask her Mom first. She has come over a couple times to do just that, but its heartbreaking when she wants to stay the night with me and it isn't my time with her.

Has your W always been a SAHM since living with you?

W also works. Thats another thing, she'll stay up late to clean up after her kids make lunches for the young ones while i am putting them to bed. When she told me she needed more help, i sent her to bed and made the lunches and got the older kids to clean the kitchen after themselves. Even then though, she would still stay up late. She wakes up really early to get to work, so she is just exhausted. I;m sure she is leaning on her kids and her Mom quite a bit to fill in for what i did. Still, looking back, i could have done even more i suppose, but i may be beating myself up.

Do you feel as if your life was mainly geared in pleasing your W, and if she did not get what she wanted, she could make the home life miserable? You told us about your shortcomings. Is there any other issues?

No, in fact i feel guilty now that i didn't try to please her more. She says she didn't like the way i treated her. I had an prioritized list in my head of getting things done around all of the houses. If she asked for specific things to be done around the house, i usually prioritized it, but usually didn't take the initiative to get things done that were luxury when we had other things that were required. For the first year of living together, i was trying to fix my house up and spent allot of time over there. She didn't feel that was for her. There are a few examples of that happening. I remember her coming out and telling me that one task i was doing (chopping up branches trimmed around the house for burning in the fireplace) was not helping her AT ALL. I did help her quite a bit with her house. She would usually bottle every up inside and then explode about something she really wanted done. Once I found out that, i would shift to do what she wanted to appease her. I've been reading the ... and i fit allot of the categories (forgetful, tend to hide my feelings, etc.), but i seem to have a lot of independent characteristics as well. In fact, at times she doesn't think i prioritize her as high as i should. Still reading that book, so i should probably wait too comment until i read the whole thing. So far, i see lots of inconsistencies in that book, but you can learn from anything as long as some though was put into it.

You told us about your shortcomings. Is there any other issues?

I'm sure i have many more shortcomings than listed. I'm stubborn, i tend to banter back and forth but try to see both sides of view so that everything is on the table before i set my mind whichever way its set. I don't think i am unyielding, and have change my course due to seeing how important something is to her. If i have a good reason for doing something though, i do stand my ground. She didn't like that and said i argued to much, she does like to argue she said. She said i was controlling her by dominating the conversation. From my end i expect her to speak up, but i realize i need to listen better then i do especially to the things not quite said affirmatively.

I tend to get depressed easily at times and i do try to hide it even from her. In 2014, my Mother died. I didn't hide that really, but I don't feel she supported me during this time as she should have. To her credit though, we were overwhelmed with the first kid together though. I can't help thinking i subconsciously resent her for that. I focused on my Dad after my Mom died and tried to include her in that, but she wasn't that interested in that as much as i would hope.

Another thing is that i like to tinker a bit. I'll take useful things out of the trash and pull parts and use them for things, Build things out of them, etc. She didn't like that at all, said i was a hoarder. I tend to not want to change things and get upset when she changes things without asking me my input. I would get upset to come into the house and say try to cook something and not be able to find things without asking her here she put them.

Either of you ever guilty of inappropriate behavior with a member of the opposite sex?

I can't help but to feel that she is thinking of someone else perhaps someone in one of her classes, but I don't think she is seeing someone. After reading another board, i am now doubting myself, but she does have integrity and wouldn't think that would be right while married. Perhaps that why she is trying to rush it? When we were "arguing" over something, she stated she doesn't even want too try with another guy after me. When her MIL and I were talking, she said she didn't think she was seeing anyone. The MC also said she didn't get the feeling that there was someone waiting in the wings. MC said that usually at this stage where the woman wants to separate there usually is OM involved. BTW, this marriage counselor was the second one we went to when we first had problems a couple of years ago. She had first stated she didn't want to counsel us as a couple because she had been seeing the W for at least a year before that. In other words, she got to know her quite well before she saw us together.

On my end, there is no one of the opposite sex involved save my HR person.

I think you said she was attending classes. What type of class?

The class is a Practitioner class. She says that she always gave in to me in the past and the class was helping her find herself and stirst started taking it. I would watch the kids on Saturdays while she went to that class.
She also thought she was enabling me and started going to a codependent class. I don't see how she is codependent, but i had hoped that she would talk to me about why she felt that way.

Sorry for so many questions, just trying to grab hold of some things.

Any particular type of help are you wanting to receive?

Sandi, keep asking, if nothing else it gets me thinking what else i could do. At this point i am focusing on things she would want to see. I realize i should only be focusing on myself, but i felt at first to focus on those things and then move on from there. On the other hand, there are other things i changed due to compromise in the relationship that i am trying to go back to my preference.

I came here for a few reasons:
-it seems most on here support my view to try for the marriage, even if it will be a different M should i be successful. Everyone i talk to IRL tells me i'm nuts for trying to keep the marriage together. They may be right of course, but I have to give it a try IMO. They think i'm even crazier for thinking past the "final" divorce. One of my work buddies tells me that i won't heal as quickly if i do what i plan. The MC is the only one who says any hope would be after the divorce.
-if someone on here sees something i am doing that wouldn't be helpful, then it would be good for me to get a kick in the butt
-general support, after all, you can't have too much support in times like these.



Now on to AnotherStander's post...

[KGuy]

Okay, got the kids fed and they are playing again so i can respond to AnotherStander's post. Its amazing how bubble wrap fascinates kids...lol.

Hello KGuy, welcome to the forums! It sounds like you are very well prepped coming in which is great You've already done a ton of reading so well done!

I've been trying to set aside time to read up on the many facets of this, but its tough finding time. Its taken higher priority than filing the taxes which i filed an extension on during the mayham...lol.

It sounds likely, but as we're fond of saying around here D is just a piece of paper. It can actually help your sitch because afterwards your W may start realizing that D wasn't the answer and it didn't solve all her problems. That can trigger the internal discovery that a lot of WAW's need to go through.

I agree, in fact, analytically thinking, the mediated agreement solves a few financial liabilities that if i continued would just get more expensive for me as well as protect my assets from future issues if i decide to enter another relationship whether with the W or not.
For the other point, not saying i didn't have a part (i definitely did), but i feel pretty strongly that i was blamed for everything she felt was wrong with her life On top of the other issues she is having, she may also be having a MLC. I may be as well for that matter Anyway, i feel the issues will come up soon while living with her Mom. If she is successful in getting another house, it may take a little longer but they will definitely surface again as well as other financial issues. She may think she can just raise my Child support to cover it, but i will make plans to eliminate that risk should she not act with a certain time and i have to move on.

Well that does happen a lot, by the time the WAS starts coming out of the fog and thinking about recon the LBS has moved on to the point where they don't want a relationship anymore. I wish more LBS's took a long term view and said "I'm going to give this a couple of years before I start a new R or completely give up on this" because often it does take that long or longer for the WAS to come around.

Wow, two years or longer! My plan was to GAL with or without her now. At first i have to be honest that I'd do it to emphasize the traits in me i know attracted her to me, but after time i would get caught up in it and continue whether she was around or not. Analytically, i tell myself i want to wait it out until after all the weaning off the breastmilk is complete and it's associated amplification of our issues was gone and see if the W comes around (or starts to). That would be about 6 to 8 months i figure (she wants to Breastfeed to 2 years old), perhaps a year. Then, if she wasn't receptive, I'd follow through on the GAL without her. Otherwise I'd be in limbo long term. After that, then she wasn't "sick" after all and would most likely feel she made the right move and would keep moving forward. I would also think from her part that if she didn't stick it out the MR as we promised to each other we would, so i'd probably move on, and why not?... she did. I flip flop on this again and again and my feelings for her are still strong even now, so who knows what the future will bring and if two years would even seem so long after occupying my time so rigidly. In my experience though, pining for lost love is not very effective or healthy.

Try not to look at it as something being wrong with her, because you need to own your part in it and work on improving yourself.

Yeah, I know i had part in it as well. I know i'm not blameless. As i said, we definitely have underlying issues that require work and change in order for this to work. I took her for granted and thought she knew i was doing what i was doing to get things done for both of us. Further, i probably didn't do all the little things because i got turned off by her mood when it was bad. I remember reading in "Men are from Mars.." that the guy was a fair weather lover and i can see where i have been that. When we were on the cyclical up and downs, i did all these things, but as her mood changed sour, i pulled back even if i was always there trying to approach her. That being said, when we were cyclical, we'd agree on fixing things or other solutions, but they'd only last about two weeks max before they feel by the wayside.

DBing isn't about simply waiting it out, it's about making yourself into something new. More attractive, more independent, stronger. Give your W a reason to want you!

I can see that in what i've read in posts around here so far. As i stated i've been trying to reinvent myself, but most of it so far has been self improvement and getting back to a solid footing to where i don't have these houses sitting around and reuse the capital invested into making myself not be dependent on a job and possibly going out on my own to start my own business. I've joined some meet-up groups for interests of mine and am getting my gear ready to pull the trigger on events should the timing come up where i can go. The question is, what else i can do? Or is there anything i'm doing that perhaps i need to de-emphasize? Any advice is welcome of course. I see it posted everywhere where you try and fill your schedule as full as you can get it.

[KGuy]

Wow, for all my talk about trying to not communicate except for kid stuff, i caved last time we had the kid transfer (both when the W took the kids and also when the MIL dropped them off). On the pick-up, i simply told the W that she looked nice nothing else. O the drop-off, I tried to reach out to the MIL to talk to her about the situation.

In the W's prev marriage, she ended it around the same time her youngest was the same age that our youngest was when she ended it. Thats what got me thinking about the weaning issue initially. Anyway, i tried to talk to her Mom about that, but only got "this is something else" from her.

Where the heck are those books i ordered...

[AnotherStander]

For the other point, not saying i didn't have a part (i definitely did), but i feel pretty strongly that i was blamed for everything she felt was wrong with her life

Yeah that's not unusual. That's why we are constantly counseling giving the WAS time and space, because they need to be apart from the LBS to realize that whatever is wrong in their life is INSIDE them and not the fault of others. They have to go on a soul-searching journey. The problem is after BD most LBSs will not leave the WAS alone, they are constantly in their face and applying pressure. All that does is distract the WAS and delay them from starting their journey.

Wow, two years or longer! My plan was to GAL with or without her now. At first i have to be honest that I'd do it to emphasize the traits in me i know attracted her to me, but after time i would get caught up in it and continue whether she was around or not.

Yes that's exactly it. At first we do it because we want to get our M back, but eventually we do it because we want to for ourselves.

Analytically, i tell myself i want to wait it out until after all the weaning off the breastmilk is complete and it's associated amplification of our issues was gone and see if the W comes around (or starts to). That would be about 6 to 8 months i figure (she wants to Breastfeed to 2 years old), perhaps a year. Then, if she wasn't receptive, I'd follow through on the GAL without her.

Don't wait to GAL. GAL does not mean you are leaving the M, it just means you're detaching and focusing on you. And you need to do that regardless of what happens with the M.

Otherwise I'd be in limbo long term.

I see a lot of people here complain about being stuck in limbo. The thing is, you're only in limbo if you let yourself be. Limbo = stuck in one place. Clearly we don't condone sitting still here. We're constantly telling people to get out and GAL, improve their wardrobe, lose weight, get in awesome shape, meet people, reconnect with old friends and family, etc. etc. Does that sound like limbo? Not on your life! You can stand for your M while still moving forward with your life.

I've joined some meet-up groups for interests of mine and am getting my gear ready to pull the trigger on events should the timing come up where i can go. The question is, what else i can do? Or is there anything i'm doing that perhaps i need to de-emphasize?

Oh man! It might be a shorter list to answer what is not GAL I mean wow- take a painting class, take a sculpting class, or glass blowing, or get a bicycle and start riding, or pick up jogging/ running, lift weights, do Crossfit (Crossfit is particularly awesome because you will have a whole new family in no time at all), go rock-climbing, go to the park and fly a kite, build models, fly R/C planes, fly rockets, get a tan, join Habitat for Humanity and build houses, work on a car or motorcycle, do some home improvement projects, organize your closet, go hiking, learn to swim, etc. etc. And that is just my personal list! I did (and do) all of those things and more!

Wow, for all my talk about trying to not communicate except for kid stuff, i caved last time we had the kid transfer (both when the W took the kids and also when the MIL dropped them off). On the pick-up, i simply told the W that she looked nice nothing else.

That's fine, as long as you have no expectations. Also understand that if your W's love language is Words of Affirmation, that compliments are not WoA. Have you read The Five Love Languages?

O the drop-off, I tried to reach out to the MIL to talk to her about the situation.

That on the other hand is not fine Don't have discussions with mutual friends or family about your sitch. Come here to talk, and find friends that have no association with your W that you know you can talk to without it getting back to her. If any friends or family ask then just say the two of you are going through some struggles and are working on it, and say no more.

[KGuy]

Thanks for replying AnotherStander. Very helpful stuff.

Don't wait to GAL. GAL does not mean you are leaving the M, it just means you're detaching and focusing on you. And you need to do that regardless of what happens with the M.

Nah, i meant, just keeping down the path my newly gotten life has in store for me. If the W came back, I'd get another life that included her of course. Both paths would be different.

I see a lot of people here complain about being stuck in limbo. The thing is, you're only in limbo if you let yourself be. Limbo = stuck in one place. Clearly we don't condone sitting still here. We're constantly telling people to get out and GAL, improve their wardrobe, lose weight, get in awesome shape, meet people, reconnect with old friends and family, etc. etc. Does that sound like limbo? Not on your life! You can stand for your M while still moving forward with your life.

I guess at this moment, I'm looking to emphasize things i know that attract her. Chenges made are a combination of things that were dicussed in MC as well as things i know that attract her to me. If those don't pan out in getting her back, then it'd feel like limbo emotionally even if intellectionally i know i'm improving myself. The thing would be that in the process of GAL, surely there might be the possibility of something else, and I'd feel the temptation to move on. Don't like thinking like that, but I'm always weighing contingencies.

Oh man! It might be a shorter list to answer what is not GAL I mean wow- take a painting class, take a sculpting class, or glass blowing, or get a bicycle and start riding, or pick up jogging/ running, lift weights, do Crossfit (Crossfit is particularly awesome because you will have a whole new family in no time at all), go rock-climbing, go to the park and fly a kite, build models, fly R/C planes, fly rockets, get a tan, join Habitat for Humanity and build houses, work on a car or motorcycle, do some home improvement projects, organize your closet, go hiking, learn to swim, etc. etc. And that is just my personal list! I did (and do) all of those things and more!

Yeah, I have plenty of interests. For instance, i haven't gone fishing in quite some time. I was asking (although not very well) if i should deemphasize some things especially the things that i did while i was with her (ie instead of GAL, it Get the Same Old Life, GSOL). For instance, it doesn't excite me to work on my house, however the financial freedom that i will get from that does excite me.

That's fine, as long as you have no expectations. Also understand that if your W's love language is Words of Affirmation, that compliments are not WoA. Have you read The Five Love Languages?

I have it (downloaded the PDF of it awhile back, but its not been read yet. .. came first before that since i thought that could help me (and it did somewhat). I already know affirmation is her language without reading the book, she has asked for more of this from me in the past and i'm real bad about that sort of thing. I was just worried that it would be the opposite of the "no contact". I just got the DB & DR book and that is top of the reading list right now (a bit over hallfway on the DB book now).

That on the other hand is not fine Don't have discussions with mutual friends or family about your sitch. Come here to talk, and find friends that have no association with your W that you know you can talk to without it getting back to her. If any friends or family ask then just say the two of you are going through some struggles and are working on it, and say no more.

Point taken, its just that she used to give me insight as to what is going on with her daughter. From her response i did get insight, but you are correct that i don't want it getting back to her that i asked about her.


Had more contact with her as she was cleaning out her Mom's garage (again next door). She was cleaning her Mom's garage and made a snide comment when i responded to her daughter that it was good she was doing that. A litte backstroy is that she had always wanted to organize my/our garage, but I resisted as I wanted to wait until we built an extension on it prior to fully organizing. At least there is some dialog, wheras I was fully shut out before.

I know she is trying to pool her and her Mom's resources to move away from next door. This clean-up effort is another step to doing that. Although her moving away would alleviate some problems, it will make it more difficult for a reconciliation (and she knows that).

[Cristy]

Hello KGuy,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

It is going to sound like an echo around here. Definitely stop any kind of pursuing/talking with mutual friends and family. Come here to share and vent. No need to reach out to MIL for anything.

Focus all of your time, effort and energy into becoming the best KGuy and dad that only a fool would leave. Don't make changes and look to see if W is watching or noticing. Make these changes for you and your precious kiddos. They need to be long lasting and sincere. Prove that to yourself and anyone else through your actions, not your words.

Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

[KGuy]

Hey Cristy,

Thanks for the confirmation of what others have said. I think i know what to do right now, but keeping the resolve to actually do it is the thing. I must admit that its tough to not look back and see if she is noticing, she is right next door after all. Right now i don't let her know that dep down i probably am thiknig that, but continue on to that path by get the work done at my other house to get it on the market by next spring. I also will have my canoe restored pretty soon aand expect to get back out on the water. Eventually, i'll get the motor boat back on the water...

When i recover from the lawyer fees, i may take you up on the coaching offer as any advice is welcome. Although, i know i have some issues i can work on and improve (always room for improvement), I know she already is a fool for leaving me . Indeed, I've already got the ex girlfriend before I met her asking my Dad about my sitch (not that i would go there, but its good to know emotionally as well). Its my opinion, the W is just being selfish because she didn't get her way whne she expected me to cave to her uncompromizing demands. I think she presently expects she will go off and do everything on her own just fine without me. Part of that plan i suppose was to sell her house quickly and use the proceeds to buy the "spacious house" she wanted us (ie me) to get while when we were talking about what it would take to save the MR. However, her house has now been on the market for about two weeks and still not sold because she is asking too much for it.

I came back to this thread to touch on some of the parallels of my sitch (and not hijack the other thread) vs what I saw Sandi2 posted in the "Regain(in)g Respect" of the WS? thread by Tread. In that thread, Sandi2 mentioned the W will test the waters to see if she can still control and I think now my wife has come out of her cold, silent treatment stage and now is testing me in precisely that manner. A couple things she has done recently.

1) I've had a draft of the final divorce decree proved via lawyers for awhile now. Frankly, i just haven't had the heart to go through it to ensure everything in it matches a) the mediated agreement between us and b) details of a Standard Possession Order (SPO) that are applicable for my state. The W, on the other hand, has not pushed to get it finalized, although she may feel it doesn't matter as its effectively already done via the mediated agreement as well as it would take more money to the Lawyers to push more on it.


2) Recently she is coming out of the cold silent treatment towards me to critisize me for some pretty inconsequential stuff. For instance, some of the shorts my (almost) 4 y/o daughter wore when we were together are now all of the sudden "boys" clothes and the colors aren't "girlish". I just told her she was being overly critical, but i should have reiterated what i told her before that she doesn't get to tell me what to do any more now that she has moved out. The thing is that my daughter is the one picking out the clothes (color and all) and likes those particular shorts because they have pockets. Like any kid, she wants to fit as many small toys and trinkets in them as she possibly can... . Before that, the W was trying to tell me how i should apply diaper ointment to the 18 month old... Its my opinion that she is starting to let her anger out on me by lashing out like this, any thoughts?

I've tried to not reply back to the W in a cold or angry manner and have pushed in back on the W to stop trying to control or demean me when she makes such comments. On the other hand, my responses took away any effort I would have otherwise made to compliment her i guess.

In addition to that, even though the W gets child support in this interim period, the W is trying to make me send the kids (particularly the older one) clothes/shoes over to her. for the girls from my/our house so she won't have to buy them. In one case she wanted me to switch a pair of shorts that were now too small for another larger pair of shorts. How petty is that? She had put in a bag on the back door in the middle of my visit (ie not sent with the kids during and exchange but made a separate walk over to leave the shorts and a note (and an email i answered the next day) to that effect. I've pretty much told her thats why she gets child support and that since we don't live together, there is no reason why we should still share things (even the kids clothes).

On the other hand, I also am looking at this from a custody standpoint as well and want to have a documented response when possible to ensure it doesn't come back to haunt me in the form of a custody modification to take more time with the kids away from me.

[Cristy]

Hey Cristy,

Thanks for the confirmation of what others have said. I think i know what to do right now, but keeping the resolve to actually do it is the thing. I must admit that its tough to not look back and see if she is noticing, she is right next door after all. Right now i don't let her know that dep down i probably am thiknig that, but continue on to that path by get the work done at my other house to get it on the market by next spring. I also will have my canoe restored pretty soon aand expect to get back out on the water. Eventually, i'll get the motor boat back on the water...

When i recover from the lawyer fees, i may take you up on the coaching offer as any advice is welcome. Although, i know i have some issues i can work on and improve (always room for improvement), I know she already is a fool for leaving me . Indeed, I've already got the ex girlfriend before I met her asking my Dad about my sitch (not that i would go there, but its good to know emotionally as well). Its my opinion, the W is just being selfish because she didn't get her way whne she expected me to cave to her uncompromizing demands. I think she presently expects she will go off and do everything on her own just fine without me. Part of that plan i suppose was to sell her house quickly and use the proceeds to buy the "spacious house" she wanted us (ie me) to get while when we were talking about what it would take to save the MR. However, her house has now been on the market for about two weeks and still not sold because she is asking too much for it.

Hello KGuy,

Focus less on what your W is doing/thinking. It sounds like you are doing a bit of mind reading.

I highly recommend taking of advantage of the online special for Telephone Coaching. You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be.

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

[EastTN]

In addition to that, even though the W gets child support in this interim period, the W is trying to make me send the kids (particularly the older one) clothes/shoes over to her. for the girls from my/our house so she won't have to buy them. In one case she wanted me to switch a pair of shorts that were now too small for another larger pair of shorts. How petty is that? She had put in a bag on the back door in the middle of my visit (ie not sent with the kids during and exchange but made a separate walk over to leave the shorts and a note (and an email i answered the next day) to that effect. I've pretty much told her thats why she gets child support and that since we don't live together, there is no reason why we should still share things (even the kids clothes).

I had to deal with the same thing... STBXW kept coming to the house for more clothes for our D (who lives with me during the week and sees her mother on the weekend). Like you, I got upset about it at first (especially when I bought four new pairs of pants and all of them disappeared) but the truth is they're your kids' clothes, and not yours or your W's. Others may disagree, but I say just let this one go--it's not worth having the kids clothes be a proxy for the larger issues.

My WAW/WW/WTF is a piece of work, but "Me and her" has nothing to do with "her and D"

[Btrow]

I had to deal with the same thing... STBXW kept coming to the house for more clothes for our D (who lives with me during the week and sees her mother on the weekend). Like you, I got upset about it at first (especially when I bought four new pairs of pants and all of them disappeared) but the truth is they're your kids' clothes, and not yours or your W's. Others may disagree, but I say just let this one go--it's not worth having the kids clothes be a proxy for the larger issues

EastTN,
So your STBXW has unlimited, unsupervised access to the house you are currently living in and presumably paying for in full? The word boundaries springs to mind.

When my XW left and took half the kids clothes, the kids "assets" were divided on that day. From then on I told her to Keep "her" clothes to herself and I'll keep mine. Future purchases paid from MY money are not meant to lessen XW's financial burden.

Looking forward to a "but the truth is they're your kids' clothes, and not yours or your W's" post when she runs of with the kids' tv set and Playstation ;-)

[EastTN]

Yes, and it pisses me off, but I can't change the locks until the divorce is final. Which is, thankfully, going to happen on Tuesday.

I've lived this before, in an even worse situation. XW #1, who had moved in with her boyfriend on BD day actually cut the intruder chain off my front door one night while I was in bed to get in the house (not for access to the house, but because she wanted to make me suffer for something) I actually called the police, and was told "tough luck, you're still married and she has a right to the house even though she doesn't live there anymore. If she comes in and something happens, call us back and we'll come out there and figure things out" which I translated as "call us again at your peril of being arrested."

[censored] when the law actively supports someone running roughshod over your boundaries, right? "Violated" doesn't begin to describe the feeling.

Your point about TV etc is taken. I'd have a problem with that. Clothes, not so much (she's going to be wearing different outfits on exchange days most weeks, anyway).

[KGuy]

Hey BTrow and East TN, thanks for your responses.

Btrow, when i have them i need the clothes and don't want to have to go buy them again. Meanwhile she would have not expended any money and can apply the child support to fund a new house (eventually). I agree they are the kids clothes, but i have the kids quite a bit thankfully and need to cloth them. When we had the kids split (i had the 3 y/o and she the 13 mo old), I went out and bought 3 ppair of shoes. She went out and bought 1 pair for each of them, but brings the kids to me with no hoes. She then emails me saying she knows i have sandals, and can i send them over since the shoes she bought make the 3 y/o's feet sweaty. If i give in here, i'll be giving in forever so i'm setting this boundary so the line doesn't keep coming in my direction.


EastTN, I changed the locks after about a month of her moving out because the W's kids left the doors unlocked three times while they were clearing out their things. Two of those times the doors were left open.

Before that she had unfettered access to the house and she took almost all the kids clothes. At that time i had the 3 y/o (she had the younger one). I went out and bought some more clothes and also requested she give back some since she didn't have the 3 y/o at the time. She complied, but didn't give me everything. She now gets child support, but still comes to me for these little things. There are two ways of looking at it:
1) She is asking me to support her in ways beyond the child support we agreed on and is pushing her limits.
2) Its her funny way of reaching out to me to get a response. My buddy keeps telling me don't even respond to her requests, but this is kid related technically so i feel i have to.

Yesterday I had them for Wednesday night. She drops them off and says they have lice and were treated. Not sure where they got that from, but it certainly wasn't here and i told her so. Being a little gun shy from so much court action, I'm a little concerned she will try and put that on me.


Cristy, I'll have to go check out the specials. Money is real tight right now until at least the credit card closes. That way i can defer payment for the closing cycle plus the 25 days until its due. The lawyers were expensive and although i was able to stagger the payments, the last of the heated battle payment are getting paid off.

[EastTN]

I agree you're being used, stand by your boundary.

[KGuy]

A little journaling here somewhat.

I have discovered the "Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife" thread is multiple threads, I'm trying to get all those read. For the most part, a lot of the A stuff doesn't apply to me I don't think, but there is a lot there that is applicable that i am trying to take way from it. I do think my W has had an EA of sorts, i think its referred to as a "unicorn affair"? I started reading those threads to find what the difference between a Walk Away W/S and a wayward wife. I'll perhaps post over in the last LBS thread, but i was wondering if anyone can point me to a thread where Sandi2 has elaborated on the differences between a Wayward wife and a Walk Away Wife without a A. I found one post on it, but it led to more questions. I know my situation is somewhat unique with the weaning issues, but i think i need to hone in on the differences of treatment of a Wayward not in an affair and a MLC. I would think its similar to a MLC, and that will be my next focus on reading after i get the LBS threads read.

Okay, so I am still trying to educate myself to get a better handle of things. H@ll, the divorce will be final in a few months, but i'll have figured it out at least...lol. i finished the DB book and started the DR book (only about 30 pages into the latter) and most of that seemed to apply to when the W was still in the house. Too late for a SBT application of that now (although helpful once communication starts), but the last resort techniques in the book and on this board) are what i am falling back on (and am attempting to do) as i have mentioned above.

I went to our MC again (this is the third time) yesterday and tried to update her on the situation as well as get some sort of confirmation on my strategy. I told her i had read the DB book and she said she knew Michelle and had been thinking of getting certified by Michelle, so i may try to help her go forward in that regard to have her coach me. Anyway, she reiterated what i had resigned myself to that i most likely would not save the marriage since the court date was in October. Thats pretty much the takeaway from anotherstander's post above as well which i agree with. I updated her on some of what i have done so far and we actually ran over.

Due to the irrationality of my W, i believe she has wayward behavior and our MC/now my IC agrees.

So, onward to GAL and detaching. An update on that:
This past weekend was a mix of tough and easy from a relationship standpoint. I had some work to do out in the yard and i started early in the morning. The W wasn't around then and i got some of the work done on it and went in for a break. When I came out to continue, the W and all the kids were also in their backyard (remember they are right next door). I found it hard to do the work on the fenceline i was doing so i shifted my work to things further in the yard. I think i may use my iPod next time so that i don't get distracted by things going on over there. Thought about it later, and perhaps she went out there because she knew i was working out there.

Anyway, i got allot done in the yard, and then the next day i went up to my cabin to do some work there. Thats 3 hours away, so its much better detaching up there . I had joined a meetup group and went ahead and signed up for an event this coming weekend. I'm also thinking about another event this week i can squeeze in.

Last night i worked on my trailer brakes when they drove up. Took allot to not stop what i was doing and say hi or even look over there as they went into the house. My D did not come over to say Hi this time Made me think later that i should have initiated something, after all if it was a normal neighbor, I'd have stopped what i was doing and chatted a little with them. For now though, i am resign to continue to focus on whatever it is i am doing and let the W (or D) initiate prior to me butting into their biz.

I've lived this before, in an even worse situation. XW #1, who had moved in with her boyfriend on BD day actually cut the intruder chain off my front door one night while I was in bed to get in the house (not for access to the house, but because she wanted to make me suffer for something) I actually called the police, and was told "tough luck, you're still married and she has a right to the house even though she doesn't live there anymore. If she comes in and something happens, call us back and we'll come out there and figure things out" which I translated as "call us again at your peril of being arrested."

[censored] when the law actively supports someone running roughshod over your boundaries, right? "Violated" doesn't begin to describe the feeling.

I had this same thing happen. The mediation settlement stated a weekend she could come over from 8-6 on the two WE days to get her stuff. She calls the Sheriff to come over with her. Its obvious that he is bias to her as she has fed him some story. When she says that i had changed the locks, he tells her she could have broken a window or busted down the door to get in since she was married and it was our house. I couldn't fathom a peace officer condoning breaking and entering. He also made comments that were obviously bias to her side. On the other hand, he did say he knew nothing about divorce when i first talked to him, so I'm hoping Karma gets him sometime in his life...is that being too vindictive?

[KGuy]

Okay, i made it all the way through the LBH thread by Sandi2 and will say that there was some useful stuff in there that helped quite a bit. I'm also about 60 pages in the DR book and i have to echo my opinion that the DR book seems to flow better than the DB book. Obviously that a premature opinion, but so far...

I still think i am dealing with a weaning issue from other research. Basically, when the young ones wean off, the hormones that help the bonding and love mechanisms go away and about 5 to 8% of women have severe irritability (PMS X100 i've read). This accentuates any underlying issues that may be present. Has anyone on either side of the fence experienced this?

I will note that there are underlying issues here that each of us have and I take full responsibility for some of those affecting our MR. As stated above, i can be unyielding at times (ie stubborn and opinionated as well as uncompromising if i believe strongly about it) , we have mixed family issues including differences in how we feel about discipline, i have a lower threshold for a clean house than she does, etc. Basically I have been addressing these issues in my GAL now that she is no longer in the same house.

From the LBH threads, i took away the following things.
1) My W is more WAW than wayward. I kinda knew that, but the definitions i was getting mixed up on for awhile there. I mentinoe to our MC that the W was wayward and she agreed, but again a mix-up on definitions...As Sandi2 points out, the DB book doesn't really define any difference between the two.
2)i tend to take on too many projects and also have ideas and plans that i don't always follow through on (although i have on some). I already knew this really as i have been addressing this in my GAL as i mentioned above, however, the fact that it may have made my W lose respect for me is something i had not fully realized.
2) another thing that Cadet and another poster said in the later threads was that it really doesn't matter what the diagnosis is, the DB application is similar for all. I guess i wanted to tailor it to my situation for the biggest impact on fixing things.

Any other ideas that anyone might have to make a greater impact would be helpful. Its good to get on here and read other's stories. I see echoes of my M in so many other's stories. Again, thanks for all the input so far in my saga.

[25yearsmlc]

Hi,

Sorry you are here. It really hurts, I know. ((( )))

Still it seems like a lot of skimming on your end and a lot of mind reading a blame shifting, as if your wife is "sick" and that she is just plain wrong/petty.

Can we hear about the assault you say She did to you, but which resulted in her filing for divorce & moving out the same day?

I'm guessing she would have a different version of events. I"m not trying to blame you but to help you get insight into your role in this?

What would SHE say if she were here?


And what are you doing to show her that marriage to you now, would be different than before?

[KGuy]

Alright,

Its quite messy, but i'll try and give things from her perspective. I provided some commentary in italic in there though.

Leading up to that day she had moved into another bedroom. We had an incident before that, but i'll focus on the one before the filing as its was worse.

Earlier in the day, we had yet another heated conversation where we were again "non-communicating" between issues and D was brought up. At that point she was sleeping with the middle SS in a separate BR for about a month, but would still use the Master Bath. She had mentioned in previous conversations how when i go in the MBR bath, i was invading her privacy. In anger, I told her fine i'd move her things out of the MBR closet into the room she was staying inand she could use the other bathroom (when she walked through the master room she was invading my privacy). So i acted and went upstairs and started to do that. She was very upset about that and told me at that point that i had "made up her mind". She took photos of me moving the clothes into the other closet.

She had been going over to her Mom's next door to eat for most of that week (i had asked her Mom to help out by cooking for her and the kids since i didn't get home until late. The W was exhausted at this point and as soon as i got home i would get the kids ready for bed and put them to sleep) and came back. Usually she came back alone with perhaps one of the older kids, but this day, all three of her kids came back as well as the MIL when the W came back. I generally gave our kids their bath and get them ready for bed. When i went to get the younger one to put her in the tub, the W said she wanted to feed her first, she was insistant on her feeding then but relented to me putting her in the tub as long as i brought her back right away to feed (the D generally falls asleep after I give the bath and a feeding). After the bath, i usually will play a little with the kids while i am getting them dressed (and after usually, but i wanted to get the youger one to the W). The young one went for an empty sippy cup and was clearly very thirsty. So i went down and the W was in the kitchen doing something in the sink area near her Mom. I went for a bottle to get some regular milk for the baby. The W flipped out and insisted on breast feeding and then went for the baby. She struggled with me to get the child from me. After i resisted, she had the SD get a phone and record the struggle. I told her she was hurting me and she did the same. Finally, i handed the child to her Mom. I grabbed the phone from the SD and proceeded to go to call the Sheriff. The W sent the SD after me to get the phone from me. She went to grab for the phone, but i got out of the room with the phone. The W then chased me to another room and proceeded to grab my shirt and pull me back. When i wriggled out of her grasp, she kneed me in the groin. When she did that, i could see in her eyes that she was disturbed that she had gone that far as to physically strike me. It was a glancing blow and i got away. She grabbed my back shorts pockets and ripped it off as i went up the stairs to the MBR. The 3 y/o saw that and started crying. She picked up the 3 y/o and her and her Mom left before the Sheriff arrived. All 3 step kids were outside the door while i made the call. The Sheriff came, but i wouldn't press charges.

I don't know what i was thinking resisting her getting the kid or calling, i felt she was out of control and i was a little upset that she would dictate to me something completely different than what we had previously done with the kids. Also, I had a similar incident happen in my first marriage where the XW picked a fight and tried to use it against me in court. I know i have a trigger there, in fact the MIL had mentioned it to her on the other incident. I guess i called the Sheriff to see if i could use it to get her in to get her checked out, but that sure backfired on me. I've got a lot of regrets as my resisting did not help matter at all.

The W has never acted this way, has never been physical like this. Likewise with me. When i write this out, i can see how this has just gotten out of control. I've been told after my first wife (and confirmed by my lawyer(s) that instigating a physical confrontation is advice lawyers give their clients to get an upper edge. I know she talked with this (and another) lawyer before this incident as well as discussion we have had in the past about the previous marriage.

[KGuy]

Okay,

Now disecting this as to how she felt? It would most likely be something like this:


-He is moving my delicate clothes from the closet and cramming them into a smaller closet damaging them
-He told me he would give me the baby back after the bath and he didn't
-He wouldn't let me have the baby
-he physically prevented me from feeding the baby
-he took my son's cell phine
-he tried to call the Sheriff on me


I of course have counters to all of these and i can see this converstaion going back and forth similar to how a non-communicative dialog goes in the DR book. Both side stick by their views and don't listen to the other. I get that and wished i could have stopped and diffused the situation somehow. Didn't have the book then though.

I realize it appears i am trying to dump this on her, i'm not. I know i have problems, not only a depression issue, but also some incredible previous marital issues that are eerily similar to what went on here. I mean her MIL told her at one point she was pusghing my buttons, to which she responded i was pushing my own buttons. In a way she was right. If i read into my actions, i might even say that i expected this to happen, so therfore am partially responsible for the events happening in a similar manner due to me trying to prevent them from happening if that makes sense .

It may sound like I'm reaching I guess, but I just keep looking for reasons why this got to this point and to explain the extreme anger she has towards me in order to do whatever i need to do. I nkow part of that anger was a long time brewing. Her previous marriage ended at the same time her youngest from that marriage was as old as our youngest. Putting that 2 together with the other 2 from when the W had issues when our 3 y/o and now 18 m/o were roughly the same age made me research 4, the weaning thing.

[KGuy]

I had the kids today. I have to get off early to get them, before the W gets off. The MIL brings them over when ii drive up and is back to being cordial again. I limited the conversation to the kids and we discussed when to drop off in the morning. I felt very upbeat this time and the conversation didn't seem strained between us so there is that.

The kids and I had a good time. Nothing like a small child falling asleep in your arms or the smile of a kid looking up or over at you to check if you are watching them...lol.

[25yearsmlc]

Alright,

Its quite messy, but i'll try and give things from her perspective. I provided some commentary in italic in there though.

Leading up to that day she had moved into another bedroom. We had an incident before that, but i'll focus on the one before the filing as its was worse.

Earlier in the day, we had yet another heated conversation where we were again "non-communicating" between issues and D was brought up.


So, if I understand this^^^you brought up D, correct?


At that point she was sleeping with the middle SS in a separate BR for about a month, but would still use the Master Bath. She had mentioned in previous conversations how when i go in the MBR bath, i was invading her privacy. In anger, I told her fine i'd move her things out of the MBR closet into the room she was staying inand she could use the other bathroom (when she walked through the master room she was invading my privacy). So i acted and went upstairs and started to do that.

why did you do^^^ this? What was the goal?


She was very upset about that and told me at that point that i had "made up her mind". She took photos of me moving the clothes into the other closet.

She had been going over to her Mom's next door to eat for most of that week (i had asked her Mom to help out by cooking for her and the kids since i didn't get home until late. The W was exhausted at this point and as soon as i got home i would get the kids ready for bed and put them to sleep) and came back. Usually she came back alone with perhaps one of the older kids, but this day, all three of her kids came back as well as the MIL when the W came back. I generally gave our kids their bath and get them ready for bed.

When i went to get the younger one to put her in the tub, the W said she wanted to feed her first, she was insistant on her feeding then but relented to me

In hindsight, Was this a battle worth fighting?

putting her in the tub as long as i brought her back right away to feed (the D generally falls asleep after I give the bath and a feeding). After the bath, i usually will play a little with the kids while i am getting them dressed (and after usually, but i wanted to get the youger one to the W). The young one went for an empty sippy cup and was clearly very thirsty.


So i went down and the W was in the kitchen doing something in the sink area near her Mom. I went for a bottle to get some regular milk for the baby. The W flipped out and insisted on breast feeding and then went for the baby. She struggled with me to get the child from me. After i resisted,

why would you resist? She wanted to nurse the baby, who was thirsty. I'm confused about the power struggle here. What are the underlying issues in your opinion?

Dig deep.


she had the SD get a phone and record the struggle. I told her she was hurting me and she did the same. Finally, i handed the child to her Mom.


ugh


I grabbed the phone from the SD and proceeded to go to call the Sheriff.

why?

The W sent the SD after me to get the phone from me. She went to grab for the phone, but i got out of the room with the phone. The W then chased me to another room and proceeded to grab my shirt and pull me back. When i wriggled out of her grasp, she kneed me in the groin.

so, she kneed you in the groin b/c you were getting away? Would she say it was in self defense if she were here?


When she did that, i could see in her eyes that she was disturbed that she had gone that far as to physically strike me. It was a glancing blow and i got away. She grabbed my back shorts pockets and ripped it off as i went up the stairs to the MBR. The 3 y/o saw that and started crying. She picked up the 3 y/o and her and her Mom left before the Sheriff arrived. All 3 step kids were outside the door while i made the call. The Sheriff came, but i wouldn't press charges.

I don't know what i was thinking resisting her getting the kid or calling, i felt she was out of control and i was a little upset that she would dictate to me something completely different than what we had previously done with the kids.

Kguy, - this^^^ sounds like a mutual fray with 2 people who both need anger management inside an odd power struggle.

Which at least is a clear path for you to do your personal work in, imo.




Also, I had a similar incident happen in my first marriage where the XW picked a fight

this is an unusual concidence, don't you think? Have you ever worked on getting better coping skills for this?


and tried to use it against me in court. I know i have a trigger there, in fact the MIL had mentioned it to her on the other incident.


Well, what are you doing to work on this trigger? It's a pattern, and you have mentioned 3 separate incidents - and in each case you blame your ex w and your present wife.


I guess i called the Sheriff to see if i could use it to get her in to get her checked out, but that sure backfired on me. I've got a lot of regrets as my resisting did not help matter at all.

The W has never acted this way, has never been physical like this. Likewise with me.


but you just said there are prior incidents in your previous m.

When i write this out, i can see how this has just gotten out of control. I've been told after my first wife (and confirmed by my lawyer(s) that instigating a physical confrontation is advice lawyers give their clients to get an upper edge. I know she talked with this (and another) lawyer before this incident as well as discussion we have had in the past about the previous marriage.

so you are saying your wife set you up? That she trapped you into a fight?

[25yearsmlc]

I would not keep digging into the "w is in weaning withdrawal" as the reason for your marital problems.

While it MAY be a small factor I think you are letting yourself off the hook almost completely and here's the thing

if you were a perfect h, you would now be powerless to improve things or change the dynamic,

so in very real way, it's GOOD NEWS that you have your own work to do. And you do.

You have a way of not seeing your role in a major issue which is that almost all of the problems you list in your first post are ongoing & never addressed in ways that require genuine change in your behavior.

It's as if you believe changing on your end means "Losing". Marriage is not a war.


Growing up, How were conflicts in your family worked out?

What did forgiveness look like, or

was there much forgiveness shown in your childhood?

What do you want to work on in yourself?

[KGuy]

So, if I understand this^^^you brought up D, correct?

No, if i recall, she brought up D, although it was related to her demand that she rename the youngest child, so i may have actually said the actual word after she said it in another way. she had been bringing the D word up recently off and on about three months prior to this climax.

why did you do^^^ this? What was the goal?

Sigh, I was just fed up. For over a month, she was sleeping in a separate room at one point displacing the 3 y/o from her bed and making her sleep on the floor. To my W's credit, she said she was not sleeping well in the master BR. That was the source of another less serious incident that only involved a power struggle over the kid and not any physical assault.

In hindsight, Was this a battle worth fighting?

Probably not, but my thinking at the time was that i had the kid duty in the morning and the evening. It was harder to take the kids their bath's separately. She had put me in that position a few times before that and it made those tasks harder for me to do by doing their baths separately. Besides, it wasn't like she was feeding at the time, she was doing other things while holding the child. She usually feed the youngest one right before bed after I gave both kids their bath. That was the routine. When the youngest fell asleep, then she could go straight to bed and not be disrupted by giving a bath later. That was the routine and i asked for that reason.In hindsight she was very specific in that request and it was unusual compared to their normal routine. I should have listened better at that time and inquired why she was so insistent on feeding then.

why would you resist? She wanted to nurse the baby, who was thirsty. I'm confused about the power struggle here. What are the underlying issues in your opinion?

Dig deep.

At the time i was thinking that the W wasn't producing that much milk, and it needed to be supplemented. Further, she was at the sink when i walked in and didn't seem like it was as urgent as before. There are underlying issues for both of us here, but focusing on mine, i guess i felt that i could feed the baby just as well as she could and when she didn't respond right away when i came in the kitchen, i went to act on that impulse to just start on it myself. When she physically tried to take the child from me, i instinctively resisted her trying to take the baby forcefully from me. The child is our child, not HER child after all. There is a lot of things leading up to this that made me feel threatened here. Perhaps i glossed over those in my bullets. If i had found this site first of the year and started this thread then, this would be part 20 i'm sure if i had not left a whole lot out.

ugh

I know, I know... The suggestion came up to give the kid to the MIL while we were struggling, once i registered, i relented.

why?

This is definitely me scared here. She was trying to record the event, it just gave me a sense of deja vu from my last marriage and i just wanted to protect myself somehow.

so, she kneed you in the groin b/c you were getting away? Would she say it was in self defense if she were here?

I honestly don't know what she'd say, but it couldn't vary far from what i stated if she was honest. I never touched her, she was going after the phone that i had at the time and i was trying to get away from her. She chased me from the kitchen into a separate room to prevent me from going further when this happened. When talking to the MIL about the whole thing later, she said what she witnessed in the kitchen was mutual. I guess i agree with that, but reminded her i had the child initially. I am stronger and bigger than her, but i was in retreat. I know the image sound silly and it truly is, however, I didn't (and never) want to be in a position where i have to defend myself against the one i care about. If i had stood my ground though, what do you think would have happened? I would have preferred to talk it through and reason with her why we were where we were.

Kguy, - this^^^ sounds like a mutual fray with 2 people who both need anger management inside an odd power struggle.

Which at least is a clear path for you to do your personal work in, imo.

Yeah, i agree i was angry and resentful that she wouldn't respect that i had the kid and had things under control. Thinking about your post, i think i can honestly say that i have been holding resentment for quite some time about things that have happened in our R. I'll get to that in my response to your other post.
To come to my W's defense, I will say here that during this time she was exhausted for various reasons. This was why i had asked her mom to cook and also why i had been taking over all the child duties from the moment i walked in until they were in bed.

this is an unusual concidence, don't you think? Have you ever worked on getting better coping skills for this?

Well, the two instances weren't exactly the same, but yeah they are similar. I was told by a couple of lawyers after the first marriage that creating an incident where the police are called is a dirty lawyer trick for the women in the divorce to get the upper hand in a custody battle. Strangely enough, i think my W may have been coached on this by her lawyer, but she got scared when it turned on her that she had actually done the worst of it. Unfortunately for me, all i had was two ripped garments, some sore privates and all the witnesses related directly to the offender.

Well, what are you doing to work on this trigger? It's a pattern, and you have mentioned 3 separate incidents - and in each case you blame your ex w and your present wife.

Three separate incidents? There were only two where a claim of "assault" took place. The first M, the X claimed assault. This time, i made the call, although i didn't have the heart to follow through with pressing charges. I can see where it sounds like a pattern as i'm sure her lawyer could as well. As a side note, the W contacted my 20 y/o D asking for my X's contact information after this happened. My D does not like her and called me to tell me what she had requested. Not that this sways anything in either direction, she could have asked because she was genuinely worried about my health i reckon.

I don't know what i can do to work on this trigger. I think i will work on it by not having any more kids for one. As i said i didn't physically initiate anything nor did i use physical means to stop it besides pulling away and trying to get away from the situation. In this case i was actually trying to avoid the situation by leaving the room and the W came after me. In the previous M, the X also approached me putting her finger on my nose to provoke me. From talking with lawyers in that industry, it appears its recommended for unethic reason IMO. How do you suggest i work on this. I see your other post about forgiveness (which i will address separately), but how am i supposed to work on how i react to something that is designed to attempt to put me in a bad light solely for the purpose of putting me at a disadvantage on seeing the kids. Luckily, the judges see right through this sort of thing my lawyers from both M stated. If you have any suggestions as to how i could cope with this better, i'm all ears.

but you just said there are prior incidents in your previous m.

As i stated above, the previous incident was provoked and seen for what it was by the judge. I told my W everything on the other incidents and perhaps she thought she could do the same thing and have better results? I don't know.

so you are saying your wife set you up? That she trapped you into a fight?

Yes, that is what i am saying for certaiin on the first M, and pretty sure on the second M.
One other thing i glossed over in my attempt to summarize:
The W went to speak to two lawyers on what her rights were in Januaryish. The second lawyer she spoke to she told her mom was a "counselor" and that this "counselor" had told her to be mean. Her Mom had mentioned that "counselor" was in a certain area of town. She told her Mom she didn't want to use that "counselor". When she got the lawyer and i got the address of the Lawyer, the address was from that section of town. A little reach to get there for me, but not much of one especially in light of what she tried to do during our struggle for preparations on who would get custody.

[KGuy]

Thanks 25yearsmlc, your observations make me think about my situation from a unbias viewpoint.

I would not keep digging into the "w is in weaning withdrawal" as the reason for your marital problems.

While it MAY be a small factor I think you are letting yourself off the hook almost completely and here's the thing

if you were a perfect h, you would now be powerless to improve things or change the dynamic,

I'll be the first one to say I'm not perfect and i am definitely powerless to change the dynamic or improve the R.

Actually, I am quite sure weaning is a factor for the divorce, but i agree it is not a factor in our M problems which are substantial. However, let me be clear that i am quite sure it accentuated the underlying issues. When i look at the actions in all three cases of serious talk of ending the MR or actual D proceedings (three kids of hers at the same stage and the timing of my W's last divorce), the signs point to it being a major factor in the final decision even though the underlying issues are very different (for the other M that is). If anything, I'm looking at this as a reason why my W's actions to end our M could be forgiven, certainly not letting me off the hook for things i can improve within myself.

so in very real way, it's GOOD NEWS that you have your own work to do. And you do.

Well, i'm not so sure about the good news part, but i do welcome the time for re-evaluating this M and myself.

You have a way of not seeing your role in a major issue which is that almost all of the problems you list in your first post are ongoing & never addressed in ways that require genuine change in your behavior.

I agree, there are a large number of issues listed that are not resolved.
Clearly i have stated i have issues. I own that and work on that even prior to these events i list as well as the M. She also has issues and not just the weaning issues. More-ever, we have issues on each of our issues and the spiral goes on. When we were in MC this time, she refused to compromise at all. The previous time we were in MC she would implement change to a mutually agreed compromise and it would be good for while, but then she would revert back to previous behavior. During our R, I have always been the one to yield and instigate change to patch any bumpy parts of our R. mind you there are some things i would not yield on and held my ground, but i would always be the one to find the common ground where we could live in better harmony. I think i've now become resentful of that and refused to just give in once i realized the list of compromised demands wouldn't relent. In any case, i can only work on me now, and , as you point out, there is plenty to do. On the other hand, i like parts of me just fine.

It's as if you believe changing on your end means "Losing".

When I am the only one doing any changes, then yes, i do feel like i am the loser in this. I have been giving in to her needs this time and two years ago because she is the mother of my children and i wanted to do things that we mutually wanted which would make her smile again keep her and the kids happy. In between i have changed/compromised plenty of times, i just didn't list those in my summary above because thoe weren't related to the downfall.

Marriage is not a war.

No, but Divorce is and thats what she filed. The way i see it, she took my children similar to how Germany took most of Europe. At least it wan't like the previous M where it was more like Pearl Harbor. I am prepared for war when it comes to taking my kids away or even throwing them to the pits of divorce where they are now at a disadvantage.

Growing up, How were conflicts in your family worked out?

What did forgiveness look like, or

was there much forgiveness shown in your childhood?

I grew up in a Christian family. My Mother was a teacher and the perfect model of forgiveness. My parents were good role models and never argued in front of us kids and did what it took to keep their marriage alive for 50 years before my mother died. I truly respect that and feel all the more of a failure for not succeeding in not one, but two marriages. Does that answer everything? I'm honestly not sure, but i hope it did.

I must admit i have a big problem when it comes to forgiving others which have wronged me. Especially when I've been wronged at a life changing level. In my M, there are many things that have happen over the 4 years we have been M that have cause me to be resentful of not only the W, but her kids as well. I feel taken advantage of and now thrown by the wayside when the need has been fulfilled. I further resent that the W takes funds that we work for together for means to serve her wants and not our M. I blame the Lawyers sometimes for her actions because i know they provide the means, but i said no to my L on a few occasions where i could have gotten down to the same level and it confuses e that she didn't. Being on the hook? i wish i could take her off.

What do you want to work on in yourself?

Honestly, i think my resentfulness has turned to irritation which has been transmitted whether its verbal, body language, or action that could be interpreted as anger. Recently, i have been working on this by letting thing go, or as George Castanza's Dad said "serenity now! serenity now!" Seriously, the serenity prayer is etched in my brain presently. I have tried to implement this letting go of anger in all communication, body language when discussing issues with W or any other social interaction as it is all encompassing. I also try to stop and listen more instead of plowing ahead and just waiting for the other person to finish not really listening to what they are saying.

As i said earlier, i have an issue with forgiveness and have tried to be better in this regard.

I still don't think i have come to grips with my Mother's passing. Even before this, i have tried to spend more time with my Dad to help him through his grief. In helping him, i help myself as well.

up until your post, i hadn't though past those three "internal" improvements. I was focused instead on GAL events, trying to get back to things i enjoy doing or that will improve my life in other ways. My focus internally ha been a reflection on complaints my W mentioned in MC as a start and then once comfortable, i would branch out to more changes once i felt comfortable. I'll honestly say though that i prefer stability over change, however, i know there must be a balance. IMO though, she wasn't the best communicator, and most recently when she communicated it was only about the physical changes (she wanted a new house, improvement/cleaning on our marital house, more free time to frolick in the sun without responsibility, different way of managing finances, pay everyone to do things instead of trying to DIY everything, etc.)
I'll have another look at my list above and see where you are getting where its all my fault. Surely i have fault in any interaction whether its good or bad in my R, but i like the idea to look at it from an improvement perspective. you are correct, they are issues that are unresolved. The problem is that most require work as a couple which will limit some progress.

Thanks again for you thoughts, they are greatly appreciated.

Its very late for me so i probably have quite a few typos in here.

Thanks again

[25yearsmlc]

KGuy


You wrote a lot. Um, I'll be brief for now (relatively).

I don't think this is all your fault and did not say that. I just felt that your first post was a lot about how you were a victim. And blaming the weaning as the big factor.

She has other children, and one prior divorce, so are you saying that unless she is pregnant or nursing a baby, she's too difficult?

Also, while I said that marriage is not a war, your response was "but divorce is war".

Though we could debate that, my point was about the marriage, not the divorce. Inside your marriage, prior to this divorce filing, you two have had a stormy relationship.

There does seem to have been a power struggle, and a lot of score keeping.

I'm sorry to hear about your mom. When did she pass away? Do you have siblings?

And though I love hearing about peaceful marriages, sometimes I wonder about couples who "never" fight in front of the kids,

it does make me wonder how they did resolve conflicts. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting you or them).

But since Every couple has conflict, it's possible that you are so unused to seeing people with different opinions who feel strong emotions, stay and work through it,

so that it's foreign to you. When you say they had a Christian marriage, what does that mean to you?

(I'm a believer, so it's not a challenge for me to ask. I just want you to define the terms).

As for feeling powerless to change the dynamic, I don't agree. You are not powerless. This relationship has two people in it.

When one person changes how they behave or interact, the relationship changes by definition. Seriously.

Here are some random thoughts...

The houses and DIY projects are stressful. ( I know this from personal experience.)

If they seem endless, it starts to feel hopeless. It wears on you.

And the chaos of small children

(I love kids, and I'm one of 9, so please don't misunderstand that)

is a lot. Sorry I may have missed it but is your wife a stay at home mom? That means no get away time,

so That is a lot of time to be in noise and chaos and see no end in sight to the house issues.
it's very classic scenario for tempers flaring.

Before you say that you too felt unheard, listen to yourself and see how unproductive the score keeping is. In your MC you report that you made more changes than she did or that she'd stop, etc.

Fundamentally speaking, what is the problem?

Not about the fight or the chores, but about respect and blending the families and sharing the same values and effectively acting as a team.

Can you look at those^^ without assigning blame?

Might be helpful.

PS Just so you know, I'm a lawyer. But a nice person.

I have to admit I struggle not to dislike my h's lawyer. It's hard to know who is directing what, however. Very odd sensation for me. Not good.

[KGuy]

You wrote a lot. Um, I'll be brief for now (relatively).

Your reply was brief? I do tend to write allot and have been criticized for that at work...lol. I like to try and get my point across or completely answer you question in this case and perhaps go into too much detail. You did say i glossed things over earlier, now you see why. Its also good to put it out there to discuss, i value your (and other's) input and it provides insight to perhaps redirect my focus on what i can do. That the point of this forum after all. I probably should post in smaller chunks to keep this thread up top for the best possibility of input as cadet suggests, but i think i also need time for reflection on each input as well, so i am good with it.

I don't think this is all your fault and did not say that. I just felt that your first post was a lot about how you were a victim. And blaming the weaning as the big factor.

I still haven't gone back to reanalyze my original bullet list. If it comes off as I'm the victim, i wrote it wrong and should clarify. I do want too be clear that i am well aware that i have blame in our R. Wish i could edit it, but i don't think thats possible here.

She has other children, and one prior divorce, so are you saying that unless she is pregnant or nursing a baby, she's too difficult?

No, I think i'm actually saying the opposite.

I am saying that at the time her SD13, D3 and D1.5 all started to eat solid foods (causes less consumption of breast milk and a withdrawal from the "good" chemicals associated with feeding), all the "issues" that we had a status quo on previously, were now bigger issues to her worthy of a D. Add to that, the house was a mess and at this time the kids were getting mobile and starting to walk and that needed to be dealt with. All these components led her to just want to leave the situation and start anew. I suspect (well hope), that after the weaning is done and the "withdrawal" from the lack of chemicals resides, she will be in a different place.

Of course i could be wrong and she just wants to leave the situation. Hard to say now, she isn't talking to me.

Upon reflection on both yours and my posts on the physical struggle, she may also just think that it can't continue like this and walk away because of that. I suspect she shifts the blame on me based on what i (mind) read the neighbor had said. If that is the case, i just need to show that we can not feed on each other when we interact while I am DBing. As far as I'm concerned, i feel that "in sickness and in health" apply here and I'll wait until i know its not the weaning issue before reassessing my situation.

Also, while I said that marriage is not a war, your response was "but divorce is war".

Though we could debate that, my point was about the marriage, not the divorce. Inside your marriage, prior to this divorce filing, you two have had a stormy relationship.

There does seem to have been a power struggle, and a lot of score keeping.

Agree on both counts. I would welcome a debate the Divorce is war. I remember my L saying during some of our discussions that i needed to do X and i couldn't just "try" if i only tried we would lose and she wanted to win. The only ones that win are the lawyers though. The MC mentioned something about a book on how divorce is a business . I need to remember to ask her about that book and put it on my read list. Either way though, with kids involved it really shouldn't be.

You are correct that the MR is not war though, but there is definitely a power struggle going on in our MR. I've always tended to stand my ground and require her to convince me to change and i've told her that. She is used to people just doing what she tells them to do or after her explanation they'll see her way and relent. That is a bias opinion of course, but it is the way i feel about it anyway.

As for the scorekeeping, i definitely feel i am the one that keeps giving every time and the "counting" just comes from me looking back and thinking "yeah, i am being taken advantage of". The W and I will discuss an issue that she initiates a change and come to an agreement where we compromise. We make the changes and all is well for awhile. She then comeback later (after the changes are done mind you) and says she is not happy with the situation and wants changes. Guess what changes she wants to make? All the things that got compromise in the previous discussion all come back. This causes resentment on my part after continually happening.

This time i put my foot down and didn't even table a discussion on something that she wanted to revise from a previous compromised agreement.

I'm sorry to hear about your mom. When did she pass away? Do you have siblings?

Thanks, she died the end of 2014, right before the last time we had issues where serious talk of D was mentioned.

And though I love hearing about peaceful marriages, sometimes I wonder about couples who "never" fight in front of the kids,

it does make me wonder how they did resolve conflicts. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting you or them).

Not saying they didn't have disagreements in front of us. They may have a conversation where they would clearly be on different sides of the "argument", but they always shelved it in front of us. You could tell my mom was upset about things by if she sighed or perhaps gave my Dad a dirty look. Years later i asked him about this and he told me they made it a point not to ague in front of us and talk about it later when we were not there. Another thing my Dad said was that my Mom never wanted to go to bed mad at each other and made it a point to try and at least talk about thing to resolve them before they would go to bed. I find that admirable and wished my W would have done that in our M. IMO my Dad catered to her quite a bit at his expense at times, but thats not a bad thing really. When i was younger, i thought he got walked over quite a bit, but i know better now. Since she has been gone he has said that she drove their marriage to what it was. I think he is underplaying his role, but for him to say that says lots about their marriage. I admire their marriage and sure wish i could have something similar.

But since Every couple has conflict, it's possible that you are so unused to seeing people with different opinions who feel strong emotions, stay and work through it, so that it's foreign to you.

Yeah, my parents were very similar people so i agree with this. My role models did not prepare me for this much conflict. I knew we would have some conflict going in though and embraced it. To your point though, i may have not worked on meshing the differences enough perhaps. The W told me she had a conversation with her Mom when we were first dating that she was concerned that we were so different. Her Mom told her that was a good thing and when she told me, i agreed. I told her i thought it was a good thing and that she introduced me to a different way of thinking that i would not have considered if we weren't together.

When you say they had a Christian marriage, what does that mean to you?

(I'm a believer, so it's not a challenge for me to ask. I just want you to define the terms).

My Mom drove this as well. She was raised going to Church every week, sung in the choir, volunteered on many groups that helped people. Outside the church, she was a teacher and influenced many lives. She taught early grade school. I remember going to a graduation one time of a student who she taught many years before. To me that speaks volumes of who she was. I would say my Dad was spiritual, but not as religious but thats my opinion. I tended to his thinking early in life, but have had experiences that definitely have made me more religious now so I'm a mix between those two beliefs now. Still, my Dad fully supported my Mom to raise us as a church-going family. His mother was very religious as well.

As for feeling powerless to change the dynamic, I don't agree. You are not powerless. This relationship has two people in it.

When one person changes how they behave or interact, the relationship changes by definition. Seriously.

Yeah, I've read the DB book and am about 90 pages into the DR book and do agree with this. I will say its a new concept to me that the R can change if only one person acts. It seems very feasible and i wished i had found the book the last time the W and I discussed D seriously. Ultimately, we both have to come together though and sometimes that is the hardest part.

The houses and DIY projects are stressful. ( I know this from personal experience.)

If they seem endless, it starts to feel hopeless. It wears on you.

Don't I know it. Before we were married we both had (at least) one house a piece. She didn't want to just go and live in my house and insisted we get a house together. We did this, but within a year, the new house required a major plumbing job. That coupled with us trying to get our other houses in shape to rent/sell does cause a lot of stress. That amplifies your point to at least threefold. I have two additional houses as well that add to the stress. Those are a little different though as one is a rough camp house and the other is a long distance rental which i have someone else do the work since i am not down there.

To my W's credit, she wanted me to just pay people to do work on our houses here because she knew i was spending too much time away from her (when working on my house). I was coming around to her thinking, but i still couldn't let go of some of the DIY stuff. This argument also carried into our belief system on the chores for the older kids, which i still haven't come around on. We had a time there where she made me aware the work was affecting my ability to take some of the kid load off of her and would remind me that she needed help at the house. I was able to drop what i was working on and be more attentive when she did that. I tend to focus on the job and tune out things.
This is also true of my full time job and i really appreciated her call to tell me that she was overwhelmed and needed my help.

And the chaos of small children

(I love kids, and I'm one of 9, so please don't misunderstand that)

is a lot. Sorry I may have missed it but is your wife a stay at home mom? That means no get away time, so That is a lot of time to be in noise and chaos and see no end in sight to the house issues.
it's very classic scenario for tempers flaring.

Fully agree on this. She is not a SAHM, which makes it even more overwhelming. I would go one step further to say that this coupled with her breast feeding is exactly the straw that broke the camel's back for her. She just feels/felt tired, overwhelmed and most likely thinks i don't support her enough leaving her in a wore down state. There were times this was probably true when i took on the big project on the house i had before the marriage and she does have a point (i also have a counter, but will not go there) After I finished the big job on my house, I made sure i took the load off her as much as i could (these past two years). In fact, my going for the whole milk instead of was my way of trying to take the load off her in a way. Both of us didn't communicate our intentions/complaints to each other. We are both to blame for that.

Fundamentally speaking, what is the problem?

Not about the fight or the chores, but about respect and blending the families and sharing the same values and effectively acting as a team.

Can you look at those^^ without assigning blame?

Might be helpful.

I'm actually to the part of the DR book where you write your objectives which ties intoo this i guess. I'm still thinking about this one, and i think i addressed some of the issues above.

1) lack of communication. I would include that we also need to work on how we project ourselves in this.
2) Inconsistent rules on how to raise ALL the children
3) Lack of time together. I would include more intimacy here as well, when we are intimate, we definitely got along better.
4) Lack of time as a family. Inclusion of all family events for both of us.
5) Lack of discussion of our goals. I would like to break it down into 5 year increments (where do we want to be in each timeframe and go from there, etc)

PS Just so you know, I'm a lawyer. But a nice person.

I have to admit I struggle not to dislike my h's lawyer. It's hard to know who is directing what, however. Very odd sensation for me. Not good.

I guess i won't hold it against you...;) Kinda gets back to the Divorce is war discussion...

I didn't try to get to know any of my Ls that well really, but they seemed like nice enough people. Family Lawyers see allot though and probably just detach from the emotion or even morality of the situation i think. Its just a job to them and lets face it, their clients are pushing them to do things as well. Over the years, i'm sure they are pushed in areas that they don't want to go and they see the results and think "why not pass that onto my other clients.

When my W wanted a D back in 2015, she wanted us not to even have L and go to a mediator. An "easy, amicable divorce" she said. That would be the only way a D could be peaceful if both parties willingly gave up. I don't believe that and feel you should fight for marriage until every last thing is tried.

When the W moved out to next door, she filed for D right away but didn't serve me. I didn't know this then. The W wouldn't let me have the youngest one for more than a couple hours at a time which caused me to interview two L. The first L told me i could file a parent-child suit only. I liked the 2nd L better and requested for the L to file such a suit to which she resisted and convinced me to file for D. Although torn up about it, i relented and signed what i needed for her to do it. I felt God softened her heart and she emailed the next morning and said she could do as i requested, but it would put me at risk should my W file for D. Turns out she did , but i made the call to do something i felt could be the last attempt at saving the marriage yet standing up on the issue of her with-holding the youngest child from me. After mediation, my L told me that now that it ws over, at least i would know i took the high road, and i do.

When i see dirty tricks performed by L, i know the L had influence, but also understand that their client (my W) let them do that after possibly being convinced. I make the call that my W is not thinking clearly right now and was talked into some things she did. It may not be true (as it was with the 1st W i believe), but i won't know that until after the W's stated 2 year timeframe of breast feeding (plus a weaning period). By then it'll be too late for the M, unfortunately...

I know, another long post....

[KGuy]

Posting via generator, so i'll make it as short as i can.

Back after a bit of same ole same ole. Well, kinda. We are both without power from the hurricane and I've been trying to cope as best i can.

DBing, I've been weak on the NC front, but with good reason i think. I actually initiated a conversation to ask what she needed since we are both out of power for the hurricane that just went through. I hung around in 'my' driveway while they were cleaning things out of their garage and got to spend some time with both Ds, so that was something at least.

After asking a few times if she needed anything, I finally got out of the W that she needed more batteries for the flashlights i had gotten her and the kids when they lived here, so i got double what she asked for and gave it to her. At least we are talking. She seemed very tired and almost defeated when i talked to her. Made me want to help her more...

Even though she said she didn't need it, I saw a empty gas can near her trash cans, so on the 2nd run for gas/diesel, i filled it up and left it at her back door so that they'd have gas for their generator.

I saw a guy in a pick-up truck come over, stop in for a short time, only to come back later. Both trips were short. Then i did what i promised i wouldn't do by asking the 4 y/o round about questions that led to the conclusion that a married friend had dropped over a fan. This has had me thinking i'm affected two ways:

1) i found i'm not detached as much as i'd like to be and immediately jumped to the conclusion that perhaps it was a guy seeking her attention
2) If it was innocent and the guy was married like I believe, the W is going out of her way to not reach out to me for help.

Either Way, I'm not detached enough, and i know that i shouldn't be paying attention to what goes on over there as much as i have. In this emergency situation though i am wondering should i still be trying a full detachment? My IC says this is the time to reach out,after all this is my W in a emergency situation.

On another front, I'm now seeing the MC (formerly the W's IC) as my IC as a sort of coach for me. She was pushing me to reach out to the stepkids while the hurricane flooding was severe. Her thoughts are that the W was upset at me for the mixed family issues as well as spending a lot of time away from the family while i was working on my house. bI agree on both front, but what to do now?

Lastly, the neighbor has said that the W wanted to moved away, but now i hear that she is fixing up the STBXMIL's house to have the 4 y/o have her own room. That tells me she is making the house next door a permanent one. Not sure what to make of that, but at least she isn't making plans to commit to a house of her own yet. Perhaps has thats promising? or perhaps its just because she has come to the realization that she cannot afford her own "dream" house? Don't know and probably won't.

Pardon any typos, I found a bottle of wine dated the year we met and have been drinking a couple glasses from it. Further proof I'm not detached enough

Anyway, any advice is welcome.

[AnotherStander]

Sorry to hear you were affected, I hope you're back to normal soon! I was born and raised in Houston and still have a lot of family there. They were all slammed pretty hard, but thankfully no long term damage, just a lot of inconvenience and disruption.

DBing, I've been weak on the NC front, but with good reason i think. I actually initiated a conversation to ask what she needed since we are both out of power for the hurricane that just went through.

That's understandable, good reason to reach out.

1) i found i'm not detached as much as i'd like to be and immediately jumped to the conclusion that perhaps it was a guy seeking her attention
2) If it was innocent and the guy was married like I believe, the W is going out of her way to not reach out to me for help.

Yes most WAS's do not want ANY help from the LBS. After BD my W would ask complete strangers for help rather than ask me. It wasn't until about a year ago (4 years post BD) that she started reaching out for help again, and still does so pretty regularly. I don't mind, she has a lot of health issues and can use the help and I can do it while remaining completely detached. Anyway, I'm sure that'll change for you some day but I know how it hurts to know your WAS wants nothing from you, but it was nice of you to offer.

In this emergency situation though i am wondering should i still be trying a full detachment? My IC says this is the time to reach out,after all this is my W in a emergency situation.

I think it's fine considering the situation, but if you offer help and she declines then let it go. Don't keep looking for excuses to show up unexpectedly.

[KGuy]

Thanks for the reply Anotherstander, its amazing the amount of flooding. The 500 year flood is behind the back fence on a deep lot (about 100 ft) and the water came about halfway into the back yard. I marked an area that L'll survey later, but i bet it was about 2 to 2.5 ft above the 500 year flood. It was about 1.5 to 2' from the house. Luckily the projections didn't come true or I'd be in deeper (so to speak). As for the power, i used to live in Galveston and have always tried to be prepared. Strange that all those years i lived in Galveston, i never experienced a Hurricane and didn't have to use the generator. Here in Houston, I've had to use it for three hurricanes/power outages. As with your folks, that was the extent of my issues thankfully.

Power is back on now, so trying to do some major landscape things on my list outside while the ground is still soft.

I pushed the W a little on offering for her to use the stove at "our" house (they are gas and her Mom's was electric),b ut she adamantently refused so i dropped it. She did give in on my other offers of "anything" and requested some batteries. Even though she didn't want me to get any gas, I took an empty gas can she had out and filled it with some gasoline. When she dropped off the kids, i asked her if she had gotten it and she said she "yes but didn't even use it". So more to your point that she wants me to know she didn't need me, or at least that how i took it after thinking about it an that fits in with what you are saying. A good thing about it is there is at least a dialog going on between us now, so that is something. Before she would say as little as possible and was cold and angry.

Got another situation I'd like advice on if anyone care to. According to our mediated agreement, i have the kids the standard (1st, 3rd, 5th WEs) and every Thursday (overnight until school) and Tuesday (5-7:30PM). Those additional days are meant to break up the time between the weekend visits so I don't have so long between visits.
When I got the kids last night, the W asked if i could switch the Tuesday for a Monday. She said it would be easier for her to watch the kids on the Tuesdays and she could go to a class she wanted to go to. She said i could have them longer. Typically one of her classes last till 10 or 10:30pm, so if i got them until then, I'd get an additional 3 hours on that night.

As i see it, there are a few negatives to this:
1) Those classes weren't helpful to the marriage I believe and i think someone in them actually encouraged her to get the divorce. On the flipside, she iis actually trying to improve herself in these clases. When we were married, i didn't mind watching the kids while she went to the classesfor the most part.
2) As i've seen mentioned around here and agree, i don't think i should help "ease her pain" as they say on watching the kids.
3) her picking them up around 10ish is quite late for a night before they need to get up early.
4) I would mean I'd have an extra day between the weekday visits
5) The Mondays would be close to the weekend and might interfere with my other house clean-up/repair.

The positives:
1) I'd get more time and may be able to negotiate an overnight on that night
2) Who knows, maybe the class would be positive for her.

Obviously the negative outweight the positives when not weighted properly. As you may be able to tell, i'm leaning towards not doing it, but the main positive i came up with without really reaching is a biggie. Right now, i am on the fence because she could give me them overnight and i take them to daycare in the morning. I don't want to enable her though and i feel she needs to feel the burden of choosing to not bend on having primary custody of the kids. I wanted 50/50 or custody, but she was real adamant about her having them. This would be one of the inconveniences of that. Me not switching would help me slightly. Anyway, I'd like a unbiased opinion as i am worried I am leaning towards denying her based on spite of past events. I don't think i am, but perhaps i'm too close to it to realize otherwise. Is there more positives that i'm blinded to here?

[KGuy]

Well, its been awhile, but i was drawn back here as no one else seems to support my fight for the M. They say just let her go she isn't worth it and that she took advantage of me. The MC/IC said i deserved better. Perhaps they are right, but i still feel the M commitment even now. Though reading other people's sitches this time makes me think mine won't turn out so good now that we are divorced.

Basically, we were divorced last October. The W got her house sold just after the divorce, and then the (X)MIL house next door on the market and sold before Christmas. She then combined those assets and probably took out a relatively small loan and got a house worth double what the house we bought together costs. When i had asked wht would keep us together before everything hit the fan, she said she wanted a bigger house, so now she has it.

My philosophy on housing frugality was confirmed though, as i got laid off end of this past year. Because of my conservative housing thinking, I think i may be okay since i had focused on paying off properties i had. I have options and am so glad that i didn't give in to committing to buying that big house she wanted.

My Dad is getting to where he needs help. Just last week, he fell fracturing three ribs and banging his head. I'm now considering moving in with him to keep an eye on him. Will need to consolidate my properties though, although he has offered help on the last remaining mortgage i have (i'd inherit the money anyway apparently as he isn't spending his nest egg). I feel bad about that though as i would rather be independent of him. He tells me that what family is for and i can see his point i guess.

I've started a company and will run things through that if i do get employment. I have some other ideas for the company to make rent as well, so that about to take flight as i now have the articles and paperwork to start it up. I can set my salary as well, thus the child support amount.

I had tried for 50/50, but in my state, that is only done if the two parties agree. She didn't want it, i think mainly because she was counting on the child support. I negotiated that down quite a bit and got an extended SPO, so i have almost half the waking time with the kids. Another reason to make a living through my own company. Since i was laid off, i have filed with the Attorney General to reduce my child support.

Shortly after she got the new house, she began dating someone who was in one of those classes she was taking while we were married. So, i have to say that tthe instinct of those on here was right even though i thought the best of her. Best case is that she had an EA or IA with him while we were married and he was the greener grass when our M fell apart. The MC/IC says these things generally don't work out, but i wonder. Kinda hits me hard knowing this, but i have to move on.

The interchanges are now less frequent since she arranged a daycare where i can pick up and drop off without any interaction with her. Helps me go dark for sure. I only have one evening where i drop off that i have to interact. She is still being petty on the clothing issue and will take that interchange as an opportunity to bring up any disagreements unresolved (mainly because i ignore now so as to not engage in that behavior) by email. I've told her i will not argue in front of the kids and requested that she not bring up such issues in front of them,

As far as moving on, my GAL hasn't really been as good as i'd like. I have spent more time with my Dad, which i am grateful for. I have a lot of time with the kids, which is also wonderful. That time is a little in the way of some of the GAL events i had been eyeing, but i think my priorities are in order for now at least. Still, i have added some GAL events by volunteering at the church my Dad and I go to. I am now going to another DivorceCare class which is better than the previous one i took since they split the men and women into two separate groups. No offense to the women on here because you are fighting for your M, but I got frustrated with the women in the previous class (with a couple exceptions) had all kinds of "irreconcilable" excuses as to why they were ending (or thinking of ending) their Ms. It was kinda funny, because the class teaches via the video that you should save your marriage at all costs and the only exceptions were endings that were not biblical (an A would be one though). I must ay that i admire each of you on here for fighting for your Ms even though there are plenty of excuses not to fight for the Ms. That why i came back i guess, hard to find that elsewhere.

Getting back to the house thing, I'd like to ask advice of what you guys think. I was awarded the house the W and I bought together. Its the house both the 4 & 2 y/os were born in, although the 4 y/o will have more memories. How important do you guys think it is for me to keep this house (and the stability it represents) for the kids? For me, it a reminder of the M, but i have gotten past that thinking that it was important to them that there is at least some stability in their lives.

For all of those who posted in here before, i thank you for your input. One of the things I need to work on myself is being more appreciative .

[SteveLW]

Wow I read your update. You are a strong man. And I feel for you brother. I know it is difficult.

I signed up for a divorce care message list. They send a daily email. I will consider doing the meetings if my wife moves forward with leaving.

I had done a KIK support group for a little while (before finding this forum). I had the same problem with it that you do with divorce care. There was one women in the group that sure came across as a WW. Her marriage was awful for the many years (over 20) she had been married. NEVER had a single positive thing to say about her ex. But the kicker? She was dating a 29 year-old (she is 44) and went on and on about how great the sex is. -vomit- I left the group. Ironically, she readded me (she is a group admin) and told me I couldn't leave. So I left the group again and uninstalled KIK. I hate social media anyway.

Thanks for continuing to post. I think your story can help us. And I don't necessarily agree that you should ever give up hope of reconciliation. I read stories all the time of WASs coming to their senses even years later and wanting to reconcile. Keep your hope alive.

[Mach1]

Getting back to the house thing, I'd like to ask advice of what you guys think. I was awarded the house the W and I bought together. Its the house both the 4 & 2 y/os were born in, although the 4 y/o will have more memories. How important do you guys think it is for me to keep this house (and the stability it represents) for the kids? For me, it a reminder of the M, but i have gotten past that thinking that it was important to them that there is at least some stability in their lives.

The house seems to be an emotional tie to you...

Couple things to keep in mind...

In that house, you are a defeated man (at least the way that your words come across here)

Down the road, with a new mate, it will feel more like you are just filling a role that your Ex played in that house, IF you remain defeated....

New house equals excitement for kids.

They will barely remember it.

Make it less of a possession, and more of an opportunity for a new beginning...

If things change down the road ???

New beginnings...

[KGuy]

Steve85,

Don't feel that strong, it seems everything is coming unraveled over here, i'm just trying to keep it from totally disintegrating. I think i just have a cussed stubborness .

Back when i thought it was hormone/breast feeding withdrawal driven (with underlying factor of course), i had been told both on here and by my MC/IC that if they were to come back, it would be about 2 years. At the time, i stupidly thought my case was unique with the breast feeding issue and thought i'd give it until the breast feeding was no longer a factor (basically now). Now that "now" is now, i am of the mindset of still waiting especially now that it seems to be shaping up that she had an EA at best which is turning into a dating after the D which would put it around the same timeframes i have been told. Besides, i still have a lot of work to do on myself as well as cleaning house (so to speak ) before i am ready to totally commit to abandoning hope.

As for the DivorceCare, there are people in there who are only considering, but those are typically the ones that annoyed me
I went to a meetup divorce support group that seemed to be more of a bunch of women who were comparing notes so that they all got what they "deserved". One told me i looked like Mel Gibson (I don't think so BTW) though, so that ego boost was the only positive from that experience.

Thanks for posting, i appreciate the input.

[KGuy]

Mach1,

I guess I do feel somewhat defeated because i feel i've failed because on paper the M has ended in a final D and its projected when i talk/write about the house. I thought i had moved past that, but apparently not. You are correct that I need to change that thinking.

I guess you are also correct in that the house is a sort of emotional tie, but mainly because we had the kids there. Naturally, i project that on how they feel about the house as well. The thing is that kids need stability above all else and I thought the fact that i didn't turn that 'home' location upside down would be a good thing. For myself, the house is an unwanted reminder of what the M was working toward, but i try not to let that affect me for their best interest.

Your point is also taken that moving on with someone else, the house would induce conflicting thoughts between the two relationships.

My old house which i am fixing up and considering "retreating" financially to and selling the Marital home actually has more kids around that are around the 4 y/os age. It would be a new beginning for them.

Further on the new beginnings, it would definitely send a signal if i sold this house to get something new which i am also considering (through the company i've set up)...the new beginning stuff would definitely be me doing something differently. More of the working on myself. She didn't like that i was resistant to change (which i am) and after reflection she was right that i should be less resistant to change...thanks for the input!

[KGuy]

alright, the (X)W still keeps going on about petty issues, mainly clothing. Personally i think its a way for her to stir up confrontation so that she is reminded that we had always fought. She has compared this behavior to how much better the OM treats her according to some things the 4 y/o has said.

At first, i would just go back and forth with her with my stance that it really didn't matter what clothes the kids got exchanged with since in effect, if i had hers, she had mine. After all, i wasn't going to send them in dirty clothes. I tried to set this boundary that i wasn't going to worry about individual items, but ensure they were clothed.

After, i stated the boundary, i tried not to discuss the issue anymore and I then ignored her emails about such issues. However, I ensured that the clothes that they came with went back with the kids. At times, i had to take their clothes off as soon as they got in the house and then ensure they were washed prior to me dropping them off the next day.

Anyway, now the kids are in a daycare that has a uniform. the XW keeps going on about listed clothes, and sent an email yesterday:

On Monday please return Cara to school with everything she had at school on Thursday. I believe you have an additional green uniform shirt at your house. Please return that on Monday as well, I only have one green uniform shirt at my house.

Please return:

the uniform shirts
her uniform skirt
her Friday uniform shirt
her Friday uniform pants
her outfit she wears for dance on Thursdays
Her stuffed animal she brought to school on Thursday


Again, trying to set a boundary, i sent the following in a reply to further emphasize the boundary:
What is the point of making such a list and demanding each and every item be returned? As I have said before, if you do not have the exact item of clothing you sent her in, you have like items that came from my house, so items to be returned to each other are in both households.

Surprisingly, i got a nicer reply to this email, which was as follows:

A gentle reminder that D4 looks forward every week to getting a prize for wearing her [school] uniform. Did she get a prize on Friday? She can only get this prize if we both cooperate and she has the appropriate clothes to wear on each day when i send her in. I gave you the Friday uniform in the bag so she could wear that.

Additionally D4 looks forward every week to dance and i can only send her in her leotard if i have that at my house.
Additionally, at my house she enjoys sleeping with stuffed animal. Please keep her highest and best interest in mind so D4 has everything she needs when D4 is with me.

I am drafting an reply email back to her with more validation in hopes to get a better dialog going that isn't confrontational. I would love to hear any input on how it can be more validating and less confrontational. Anyway, i drafted up the following:

Thank you for sharing information on the prize and its relation to the uniform with me. I was glad that you cooperated with me to make this happen. The previous week D4 had told me it was about her doing what she was told, however this past Friday, Ms. XXX told me she had told D4 that if she wore the uniform this past week, she would get a prize. Yes, after much indecision on what she wanted, she did get a prize, a beach ball with a fish inside.

I hear you that D4 looks forward to dance, she always has hasn’t she? If I understand your past email, she has her dance in the afternoon on Thursdays, is this correct? In any case I hear what you are saying, and since you (/ your mother) bring the girls in Thursday mornings, I left the ballet bag with Cara’s ballet outfit and shoes at daycare.
As for the stuffed doll, I can see this is important to you, and more importantly important to D4. I had planned to return it Monday and will take all steps to ensure it gets back to your house. I have been trying to limit her bringing too many toys along with her, so on Friday, when she wanted to bring her monkey instead she left it here. As always, I have D4 and D2’s best interest at heart, so I agree with you that it is in both of the girl’s best interest to ensure they are returned with everything they need at either house.

Anyway, any input is appreciated. The fact that she reworded her email to request instead of demand is progress on her part and I would like to keep it progressing to where we at least are communicating properly.

[slater]

You are a more patient man than most KGuy, I would not even be responding to these types of emails. It's ridiculous to return kids to the other parent with the same clothes they were in when they left the other parent (as you quite rightly point out, they need to be laundered). If it's that big a concern to her, you and her buy a whole bunch more of everything so there are four or five sets of uniforms at each house so that when D4 goes back, or vice versa, there are lots of uniform pieces available to XW (and lots at your place too).

Not that my advice is always best taken (in fact, probably not), but I would either ignore that silliness or just tell her she's being silly. You might remind her that these are exactly the kind of two household issues that result from the situation she created.

I know that won't promote better communication but she will at least (secretly) respect you for calling her out on her unreasonableness. And if your common sense response angers or frustrates her instead...so what, what's she going to do, leave you??

[KGuy]

Hey Slater,

Thanks for your reply. I obviously agree and had sent a less nice email quite awhile back stating the same thing (on the clothes issues only) and had been ignoring such emails when she just keeps doing this. Usually, i just state my position and hold consistently to it. Every once in awhile, the situation gets to me and i reply repeating my position. From past experience with her on "arguing" emails, it always seems too take three emails for her to even acknowledge my position, she just pushes her agenda relentlessly. This time i got a halfway nice reply back, so i wanted to encourage that and also try and focus on validating or changing my pattern of reply in hopes that something will work differently, thus my last reply was hoping to:
1) try and use validation in hopes to perhaps show her that i hear her at least (not that my stance will change on this issue, but i at least hear her)
2) By replying in a different tone back to her, i had hoped she would see her tone sets the mood for a "fight" and that if she talked in a different manner we might get along better. In her mind, we fought all the time and i wanted to remind her that we did get along in our marriage and we can now if absolutely necessary. In effect, my changing my behavior that leads to her behavior changed is part of the DB principal, right?

My message of the "exact" things being returned to the W's residence hasn't changed for quite some time, i've been consistent on that all the way back when it started. I just wish she would stop this badgering, its hard to see her like treating me like this. You are correct, it really is sillyness and it has got to stop. I just don't know how i can stop it. I couldn't stop the divorce after all, so how can i stop this behavior? If anyone has any idea how to stop this behavior of hers (besides ignoring, I'll go back to that after this email), I'm all ears...

I have a full dresser full of clothes that i had either bought after the W left or were my older daughter's (that i got out of the attic) so my initial thought would be why buy even MORE clothes because she picked a daycare that has uniforms. The W also knows that even if i had the money to buy additional uniforms, i wouldn't typically do that (I must admit I'm stubborn like that). She knows I'd stand fast on this and in "fighting" doing what she says, i'd just convince her that we fought all the time (in her mind at least) and she would feel more justified in doing what she did. The W picked out this Daycare and although probably a good idea to buy extra uniforms (this would be a 180 for me to do that), my buying a whole bunch of uniforms for this daycare won't work at this moment either as money is tight right now since i just got laid off recently.

I wanted to reply to the "nice" email today and hadn't had any replies yet on this thread, so I slightly modified my reply and sent it out earlier today as follows:

The previous week D4 had told me the prize would be given if she did what she was told, However this past Friday, Ms. XXXX told me she had told D4 what you mentioned that if she wore the uniform this past week, she would get a prize. Thank you for sharing the prize information as well and its relation to the uniform with me. I was happy that you cooperated with me to make this happen. Yes, after much indecision on what she wanted, she did get a prize, a beach ball with a fish inside.

I understand that D4 looks forward to dance, she always has hasn’t she? If I understand your past email, she has her dance in the afternoon on Thursdays, is this correct? In any case I hear what you are saying and since you (or your mother) bring the girls in Thursday mornings, I left the ballet bag with D4’s ballet outfit and shoes at daycare so you’ll need to pick them up there to bring in next Thursday.

As for the stuffed doll, I realize this is important to you, and more importantly to D4. I have always returned the toys they have brought with them. I had planned to return it Monday and will take all steps to ensure it gets back to your house. As always, I have D4 and D2’s best interest at heart.


Oh, and one other thing, the W had the Friday off and came up to the school, most likely to take anything i had brought up there that she thought was hers. I guess she saw the other stuffed animal the D4 brought thus, prompting her to think i wasn't going to return the stuffed animal that D4 came with (D4 likes to bring things from my house if she know I am picking her up). Now that i thiink about it, she should have realized the ballet bag was there so its odd that she brought that up in her email.

This is the last attempt for me to reply i think, perhaps you are right and i should just ignore these types of emails. I am just playing into her hands and fanning her "anger" flame more if i respond. On the other hand, she has shut down all other communication (i also have went NC with a few weak moments on my part), arranged that the majority of the exchanges are through the daycare (ie no face to face contact with anyone at the house except one night). so i am at least trying to work with what ii have too change something. Its not much hope in turning this around of coourse, but i have to try whatever i can.

Meanwhile, the kids and i GALed the whole weekend. I don't particularly like to get overbooked, but we did quite a bit. On Saturday, we did some stuff here at my Dad's house, i then threw the canoe up on top of the SUV and we went paddling nearby a BDay party the D4 went to (the D2 tagged along as well) that was in that area. Today, we went to church, ate out with my Dad and, since i had left the canoe on top of the SUV, we went paddling nearby here and then I took D4 over to my old house where she had fun playing with neighbors down the street while i planted some more plants for my change of landscape. The D2 fell asleep during the paddle and slept through the playing though.

Spending time with the kids sure does help all the worry go away about these other things i cannot change.

Anyway, thanks again for your reply.