WAW, is there hope?

[KGuy]

Been lurking on here awhile and posting some advice when i can help. Have been through most of Cadet's links and ordered the DB & DR book as well as started reading whatever i could find online for awhile now. I had started to write up a summary, but it turned into a book. Saw someone had bullets, so i will try and make it shorter that way.

-Marriage 4 years, together 10
-After Marriage , W insisted we move into a house we buy together, both our other houses require some work to fix up to sell. We compromised on the house features, but she mainly got what was on her list of features
-W has 3 kids (S17, S14, D12) from a separate marriage (that marriage broke up when the youngest was ~18 mo. Those kids lived with us.
-I have 1 D20 from another marriage who does not live with us
-There have always been kid issues between us. Typically mixed family stuff but we worked through, although not perfectly from either side.
-After Marriage, we had a Daughter (now 3.5) together
-Although closer to sell/rent, her house has her Mom in it o i concentrate on trying to get my house in shape
-At the beginning of Marriage, I spend quite a bit of time on my house trying to fix it to rent/sell as we are levered pretty good to get the house together.
-when 1st Daughter was ~1.5 y/o we had serious problems and wife wanted a divorce, i pushed for MC which we did. I basically found out what she wanted and gave it to her (mostly). We went to MC (2 different ones) and worked out differences.
-Most likely differences were solved because we were once again expecting. 2nd Daughter now 18mo
-W has been attending classes. In trying to figure out what was going on, i read some disturbing things in her class notes that led me to believe she has been planning divorce for quite some time. The (2nd) MC has confirmed this.
-Problems with Marriage throughout last half of 2016. These generally came and went (could time them to the month), but got worse as the year ended, then went to separate BR the first of this year.
-W wants to end Marriage again and wants to go to MC for "exit strategy". I refuse and will only go if we work to wards Marriage.
-MC sessions begin to turn to "exit strategy", after stressing i only was there if we were working to be together, i finally walk out in the last 15 minutes of the last one where she is discussing how she would leave (move in with her Mom's temporarily, then find a house and buy it (more on that later)
-when 2nd Daughter was 13 mo, wife was very insistent on breast feeding. almost to the point of terror if she didn't on one or two occasions
-had an argument 3/16/17 which involved a struggle between us where W assaults me. Ending situation W moves out to her Mom's (next door)
-W cut communication, i tried to talk to her to reason with her and work it out, but effectively she cut all lines of communication
-Turns out the W filed next day, but i wasn't served until i started a Parent-Child suit (only, no divorce filed on my part) to get access to the youngest which i was denied any time other than a couple hours at a time. I had the 3 y/o however. My screw up here was telling MIL something was coming.
-served with D 3/24/17 and things move quick from there
-4/13/13 1st mediation meant to be for Temporary orders, W goes for a final order. Not to her liking though so we stalemate because she wants more money
-I prepare for worst with Lawyer and prepare for Temporary hear on 4/18/17. W and her L come up with another offer and postpone the trial and again want to mediate.
-5/12/17 we once again mediate. Come to an agreement for D that includes reasonable visitation and not so unreasonable -i now have draft finalized "final" divorce decree, but haven't had the heart to go through it thoroughly to ensure it is correct. I don't want this. W seems set on it.
-W has put allot of effort into her house and just got it on the market
-in the mediated agreement, i get the marital house, and have been trying to straighten it up from how it was left and also have been working on my house to sell it.


Thats all the highlights. After she moved out (and before), I did a few things opposite of the "rules" like buy mother's day flowers (she also sent a card over from the D3). I have been a little upset at this and basically trying to recuperate ii stayed home. Since she lives next door, she surely has seen that i didn't GAL.

When not with the kids, I've been trying to GAL now though by focusing on getting the properties in shape, i went to a divorce support class, reconnected with some guy friends at work (and also some other friend)s, and am starting to join groups. After sulking, i'm now able to communicate a little better with W ( i was very short with her and got annoyed when she still tried to tell me what to do with the kids).

Its my theory that, although there are some serious underlying issues that we worked through not perfectly (on both sides), W is (and was 2 years ago) suffering from a breast feeding withdrawal as well as a newly mobile baby. She has issues with:
-the house was a mess.
-I had spent quite a bit of time away from the house to get things done with the other property when the 1st D was young. I tried to take over once i got there, but not enough i know.
-I would get home late from work and although i basically took over all the things required for the kids, it may have been less than she wanted
-My work took me away from house on occasion causing issues (usually came back to a mad W)
-She thought i was too strict on her children requiring them to pick up after themselves. She said they hated me (except the youngest which i think of as my own daughter).

Of course i have counters and justifications for all the above, but i realize that it alienated her and i didn't compensate enough.

Now, here we are almost four months after her filing and our 4 year marriage (10 year relationship) will be gone it appears. My head is spinning still. I liked the quote i keep seeing bounce around here that the old marriage is over, but the possibilities that a new marriage would begin sounds good to me. I've pretty much resigned myself that the marriage will be ended since it is moving so quickly, but have hopes that she will possibly come around after the baby funk is all gone or that she'll realize that we could afford the things she wants because we were a team. I'm now unsure if i want the latter to be a reason for her coming back, but i do still care about her and almost hope for any reason. In the end, i am sad for how this will affect my 2 daughters. I flip flop though and sometimes just tell myself i could do better as she can be pretty self centered (even without the baby funk) and has issues. Still I married her and even now still feel devoted to her. I feel that she effectively is sick and i want to honor the vows i made before God, in particular "in sickness and in health".

I was doing pretty good with applying what i've learned both here (all the links Cadet puts in right after someone posts), other forums, and some books I've gotten so far. I was of the mindset that what happens happens and all i can do is improve myself and if we are meant to be, the ball is in her court. However, today i saw one of our neighbors at the community 4th event that the W is good friends with today and i couldn't help myself to blurt out things that really showed my hand (things like i was hoping for the marriage back, that the MC agreed with me, etc.). Any advice is welcome of course and i'm sure this may be to condensed to get a full picture (then again maybe the more i know, the more i myself justify).

[Cadet]

Welcome sounds like you don't need the links post, let me know if you want it.

Glad you decided to post your story.

[KGuy]

Hey Cadet,

Read most of them, thanks for posting

What i need is to get the mail sped up to get those books...lol.

[sandi2]

Welcome aboard. What are the ages of you and W? Did she ever give you a significant reason for wanting to end the M?

How are you doing while living right next door to your MIL and W? May be handy for the kids, but I tend to think not so good for the adults.

Has your W always been a SAHM since living with you?

Do you feel as if your life was mainly geared in pleasing your W, and if she did not get what she wanted, she could make the home life miserable? You told us about your shortcomings. Is there any other issues? Either of you ever guilty of inappropriate behavior with a member of the opposite sex?

I think you said she was attending classes. What type of class?

Sorry for so many questions, just trying to grab hold of some things.

Any particular type of help are you wanting to receive?

Be sure to post often, and it help keep your thread more active with replies.

[AnotherStander]

Hello KGuy, welcome to the forums! It sounds like you are very well prepped coming in which is great You've already done a ton of reading so well done!

Now, here we are almost four months after her filing and our 4 year marriage (10 year relationship) will be gone it appears. My head is spinning still.

And it will be for a while. That's normal. Just try to focus on you and what you can do to become a better person.

I've pretty much resigned myself that the marriage will be ended since it is moving so quickly

It sounds likely, but as we're fond of saying around here D is just a piece of paper. It can actually help your sitch because afterwards your W may start realizing that D wasn't the answer and it didn't solve all her problems. That can trigger the internal discovery that a lot of WAW's need to go through.

I flip flop though and sometimes just tell myself i could do better as she can be pretty self centered (even without the baby funk) and has issues.

Well that does happen a lot, by the time the WAS starts coming out of the fog and thinking about recon the LBS has moved on to the point where they don't want a relationship anymore. I wish more LBS's took a long term view and said "I'm going to give this a couple of years before I start a new R or completely give up on this" because often it does take that long or longer for the WAS to come around.

I feel that she effectively is sick and i want to honor the vows i made before God, in particular "in sickness and in health".

Try not to look at it as something being wrong with her, because you need to own your part in it and work on improving yourself. DBing isn't about simply waiting it out, it's about making yourself into something new. More attractive, more independent, stronger. Give your W a reason to want you!

[KGuy]

Hello Sandi, and thanks for your responses. Yours are especially helpful since you were on the other side essentially and might give me more insight of what she is thinking.

Welcome aboard. What are the ages of you and W?

I'm 50, she turn 44

Did she ever give you a significant reason for wanting to end the M?

She has stated all kinds of reasons. The actual filing took place after she wrestled with me over a phone (torn my shirt, kneed me in the groin, pretty bad stuff). That was only a catalyst though, she says i don't respect her and compares our marriage to other friend's marriages and how they do things (finances, treat their kids, outings, etc.) within their marriages. She stated the things listed above, but she mainly had the most issue with
-the house was a mess.
-I would get home late from work and although i basically took over all the things required for the kids, it may have been less than she wanted
-She said and i didn't love her kids thought i was too strict and treated them like slaves

Funny thing about the first bullet is that she took pictures of all the mess. At the time i was going to the counselor alone and i pointed out that all the pictures were of her things scattered everywhere. When we had a session together, she said she had no place to put it. Funny thing is that this new house (to us) we bought together has less living and storage space than my house i owned before the marriage. I see her point that we needed a fresh start and i don't put as high of a priority on cleanliness as most i'll admit.

How are you doing while living right next door to your MIL and W? May be handy for the kids, but I tend to think not so good for the adults.

From the adult perspective, not good! Early in the marriage, the MIL was living in our house! So moving next door wasn't as bad as that! I tend to want to peek out there to see if the W is there. I have to hold myself back and tell myself that it doesn't matter at this point. In fact it might be better if i didn't know. At other times, i avoid going out there because i don't want confrontation. This house has grown on me and i like it (well mostly), but i have thought of selling it and getting away from here. Still, the kids know this as their home, so having it keeps consistency for them at least. While we were struggling over custody issues, she would come out and try and take photos if i left the car running with the kids in there to run inside and get one last thing. Our driveways are right next to each other as well making it even more difficult. The BR she is sleeping in is directly facing the driveway.

From the kids perspective, it is very confusing. The 3 y/o will try and come outside to see me if she sees me in the driveway. I've told her that she is more than welcome to come over even if only for a hug, but that she should ask her Mom first. She has come over a couple times to do just that, but its heartbreaking when she wants to stay the night with me and it isn't my time with her.

Has your W always been a SAHM since living with you?

W also works. Thats another thing, she'll stay up late to clean up after her kids make lunches for the young ones while i am putting them to bed. When she told me she needed more help, i sent her to bed and made the lunches and got the older kids to clean the kitchen after themselves. Even then though, she would still stay up late. She wakes up really early to get to work, so she is just exhausted. I;m sure she is leaning on her kids and her Mom quite a bit to fill in for what i did. Still, looking back, i could have done even more i suppose, but i may be beating myself up.

Do you feel as if your life was mainly geared in pleasing your W, and if she did not get what she wanted, she could make the home life miserable? You told us about your shortcomings. Is there any other issues?

No, in fact i feel guilty now that i didn't try to please her more. She says she didn't like the way i treated her. I had an prioritized list in my head of getting things done around all of the houses. If she asked for specific things to be done around the house, i usually prioritized it, but usually didn't take the initiative to get things done that were luxury when we had other things that were required. For the first year of living together, i was trying to fix my house up and spent allot of time over there. She didn't feel that was for her. There are a few examples of that happening. I remember her coming out and telling me that one task i was doing (chopping up branches trimmed around the house for burning in the fireplace) was not helping her AT ALL. I did help her quite a bit with her house. She would usually bottle every up inside and then explode about something she really wanted done. Once I found out that, i would shift to do what she wanted to appease her. I've been reading the ... and i fit allot of the categories (forgetful, tend to hide my feelings, etc.), but i seem to have a lot of independent characteristics as well. In fact, at times she doesn't think i prioritize her as high as i should. Still reading that book, so i should probably wait too comment until i read the whole thing. So far, i see lots of inconsistencies in that book, but you can learn from anything as long as some though was put into it.

You told us about your shortcomings. Is there any other issues?

I'm sure i have many more shortcomings than listed. I'm stubborn, i tend to banter back and forth but try to see both sides of view so that everything is on the table before i set my mind whichever way its set. I don't think i am unyielding, and have change my course due to seeing how important something is to her. If i have a good reason for doing something though, i do stand my ground. She didn't like that and said i argued to much, she does like to argue she said. She said i was controlling her by dominating the conversation. From my end i expect her to speak up, but i realize i need to listen better then i do especially to the things not quite said affirmatively.

I tend to get depressed easily at times and i do try to hide it even from her. In 2014, my Mother died. I didn't hide that really, but I don't feel she supported me during this time as she should have. To her credit though, we were overwhelmed with the first kid together though. I can't help thinking i subconsciously resent her for that. I focused on my Dad after my Mom died and tried to include her in that, but she wasn't that interested in that as much as i would hope.

Another thing is that i like to tinker a bit. I'll take useful things out of the trash and pull parts and use them for things, Build things out of them, etc. She didn't like that at all, said i was a hoarder. I tend to not want to change things and get upset when she changes things without asking me my input. I would get upset to come into the house and say try to cook something and not be able to find things without asking her here she put them.

Either of you ever guilty of inappropriate behavior with a member of the opposite sex?

I can't help but to feel that she is thinking of someone else perhaps someone in one of her classes, but I don't think she is seeing someone. After reading another board, i am now doubting myself, but she does have integrity and wouldn't think that would be right while married. Perhaps that why she is trying to rush it? When we were "arguing" over something, she stated she doesn't even want too try with another guy after me. When her MIL and I were talking, she said she didn't think she was seeing anyone. The MC also said she didn't get the feeling that there was someone waiting in the wings. MC said that usually at this stage where the woman wants to separate there usually is OM involved. BTW, this marriage counselor was the second one we went to when we first had problems a couple of years ago. She had first stated she didn't want to counsel us as a couple because she had been seeing the W for at least a year before that. In other words, she got to know her quite well before she saw us together.

On my end, there is no one of the opposite sex involved save my HR person.

I think you said she was attending classes. What type of class?

The class is a Practitioner class. She says that she always gave in to me in the past and the class was helping her find herself and stirst started taking it. I would watch the kids on Saturdays while she went to that class.
She also thought she was enabling me and started going to a codependent class. I don't see how she is codependent, but i had hoped that she would talk to me about why she felt that way.

Sorry for so many questions, just trying to grab hold of some things.

Any particular type of help are you wanting to receive?

Sandi, keep asking, if nothing else it gets me thinking what else i could do. At this point i am focusing on things she would want to see. I realize i should only be focusing on myself, but i felt at first to focus on those things and then move on from there. On the other hand, there are other things i changed due to compromise in the relationship that i am trying to go back to my preference.

I came here for a few reasons:
-it seems most on here support my view to try for the marriage, even if it will be a different M should i be successful. Everyone i talk to IRL tells me i'm nuts for trying to keep the marriage together. They may be right of course, but I have to give it a try IMO. They think i'm even crazier for thinking past the "final" divorce. One of my work buddies tells me that i won't heal as quickly if i do what i plan. The MC is the only one who says any hope would be after the divorce.
-if someone on here sees something i am doing that wouldn't be helpful, then it would be good for me to get a kick in the butt
-general support, after all, you can't have too much support in times like these.



Now on to AnotherStander's post...

[KGuy]

Okay, got the kids fed and they are playing again so i can respond to AnotherStander's post. Its amazing how bubble wrap fascinates kids...lol.

Hello KGuy, welcome to the forums! It sounds like you are very well prepped coming in which is great You've already done a ton of reading so well done!

I've been trying to set aside time to read up on the many facets of this, but its tough finding time. Its taken higher priority than filing the taxes which i filed an extension on during the mayham...lol.

It sounds likely, but as we're fond of saying around here D is just a piece of paper. It can actually help your sitch because afterwards your W may start realizing that D wasn't the answer and it didn't solve all her problems. That can trigger the internal discovery that a lot of WAW's need to go through.

I agree, in fact, analytically thinking, the mediated agreement solves a few financial liabilities that if i continued would just get more expensive for me as well as protect my assets from future issues if i decide to enter another relationship whether with the W or not.
For the other point, not saying i didn't have a part (i definitely did), but i feel pretty strongly that i was blamed for everything she felt was wrong with her life On top of the other issues she is having, she may also be having a MLC. I may be as well for that matter Anyway, i feel the issues will come up soon while living with her Mom. If she is successful in getting another house, it may take a little longer but they will definitely surface again as well as other financial issues. She may think she can just raise my Child support to cover it, but i will make plans to eliminate that risk should she not act with a certain time and i have to move on.

Well that does happen a lot, by the time the WAS starts coming out of the fog and thinking about recon the LBS has moved on to the point where they don't want a relationship anymore. I wish more LBS's took a long term view and said "I'm going to give this a couple of years before I start a new R or completely give up on this" because often it does take that long or longer for the WAS to come around.

Wow, two years or longer! My plan was to GAL with or without her now. At first i have to be honest that I'd do it to emphasize the traits in me i know attracted her to me, but after time i would get caught up in it and continue whether she was around or not. Analytically, i tell myself i want to wait it out until after all the weaning off the breastmilk is complete and it's associated amplification of our issues was gone and see if the W comes around (or starts to). That would be about 6 to 8 months i figure (she wants to Breastfeed to 2 years old), perhaps a year. Then, if she wasn't receptive, I'd follow through on the GAL without her. Otherwise I'd be in limbo long term. After that, then she wasn't "sick" after all and would most likely feel she made the right move and would keep moving forward. I would also think from her part that if she didn't stick it out the MR as we promised to each other we would, so i'd probably move on, and why not?... she did. I flip flop on this again and again and my feelings for her are still strong even now, so who knows what the future will bring and if two years would even seem so long after occupying my time so rigidly. In my experience though, pining for lost love is not very effective or healthy.

Try not to look at it as something being wrong with her, because you need to own your part in it and work on improving yourself.

Yeah, I know i had part in it as well. I know i'm not blameless. As i said, we definitely have underlying issues that require work and change in order for this to work. I took her for granted and thought she knew i was doing what i was doing to get things done for both of us. Further, i probably didn't do all the little things because i got turned off by her mood when it was bad. I remember reading in "Men are from Mars.." that the guy was a fair weather lover and i can see where i have been that. When we were on the cyclical up and downs, i did all these things, but as her mood changed sour, i pulled back even if i was always there trying to approach her. That being said, when we were cyclical, we'd agree on fixing things or other solutions, but they'd only last about two weeks max before they feel by the wayside.

DBing isn't about simply waiting it out, it's about making yourself into something new. More attractive, more independent, stronger. Give your W a reason to want you!

I can see that in what i've read in posts around here so far. As i stated i've been trying to reinvent myself, but most of it so far has been self improvement and getting back to a solid footing to where i don't have these houses sitting around and reuse the capital invested into making myself not be dependent on a job and possibly going out on my own to start my own business. I've joined some meet-up groups for interests of mine and am getting my gear ready to pull the trigger on events should the timing come up where i can go. The question is, what else i can do? Or is there anything i'm doing that perhaps i need to de-emphasize? Any advice is welcome of course. I see it posted everywhere where you try and fill your schedule as full as you can get it.

[KGuy]

Wow, for all my talk about trying to not communicate except for kid stuff, i caved last time we had the kid transfer (both when the W took the kids and also when the MIL dropped them off). On the pick-up, i simply told the W that she looked nice nothing else. O the drop-off, I tried to reach out to the MIL to talk to her about the situation.

In the W's prev marriage, she ended it around the same time her youngest was the same age that our youngest was when she ended it. Thats what got me thinking about the weaning issue initially. Anyway, i tried to talk to her Mom about that, but only got "this is something else" from her.

Where the heck are those books i ordered...

[AnotherStander]

For the other point, not saying i didn't have a part (i definitely did), but i feel pretty strongly that i was blamed for everything she felt was wrong with her life

Yeah that's not unusual. That's why we are constantly counseling giving the WAS time and space, because they need to be apart from the LBS to realize that whatever is wrong in their life is INSIDE them and not the fault of others. They have to go on a soul-searching journey. The problem is after BD most LBSs will not leave the WAS alone, they are constantly in their face and applying pressure. All that does is distract the WAS and delay them from starting their journey.

Wow, two years or longer! My plan was to GAL with or without her now. At first i have to be honest that I'd do it to emphasize the traits in me i know attracted her to me, but after time i would get caught up in it and continue whether she was around or not.

Yes that's exactly it. At first we do it because we want to get our M back, but eventually we do it because we want to for ourselves.

Analytically, i tell myself i want to wait it out until after all the weaning off the breastmilk is complete and it's associated amplification of our issues was gone and see if the W comes around (or starts to). That would be about 6 to 8 months i figure (she wants to Breastfeed to 2 years old), perhaps a year. Then, if she wasn't receptive, I'd follow through on the GAL without her.

Don't wait to GAL. GAL does not mean you are leaving the M, it just means you're detaching and focusing on you. And you need to do that regardless of what happens with the M.

Otherwise I'd be in limbo long term.

I see a lot of people here complain about being stuck in limbo. The thing is, you're only in limbo if you let yourself be. Limbo = stuck in one place. Clearly we don't condone sitting still here. We're constantly telling people to get out and GAL, improve their wardrobe, lose weight, get in awesome shape, meet people, reconnect with old friends and family, etc. etc. Does that sound like limbo? Not on your life! You can stand for your M while still moving forward with your life.

I've joined some meet-up groups for interests of mine and am getting my gear ready to pull the trigger on events should the timing come up where i can go. The question is, what else i can do? Or is there anything i'm doing that perhaps i need to de-emphasize?

Oh man! It might be a shorter list to answer what is not GAL I mean wow- take a painting class, take a sculpting class, or glass blowing, or get a bicycle and start riding, or pick up jogging/ running, lift weights, do Crossfit (Crossfit is particularly awesome because you will have a whole new family in no time at all), go rock-climbing, go to the park and fly a kite, build models, fly R/C planes, fly rockets, get a tan, join Habitat for Humanity and build houses, work on a car or motorcycle, do some home improvement projects, organize your closet, go hiking, learn to swim, etc. etc. And that is just my personal list! I did (and do) all of those things and more!

Wow, for all my talk about trying to not communicate except for kid stuff, i caved last time we had the kid transfer (both when the W took the kids and also when the MIL dropped them off). On the pick-up, i simply told the W that she looked nice nothing else.

That's fine, as long as you have no expectations. Also understand that if your W's love language is Words of Affirmation, that compliments are not WoA. Have you read The Five Love Languages?

O the drop-off, I tried to reach out to the MIL to talk to her about the situation.

That on the other hand is not fine Don't have discussions with mutual friends or family about your sitch. Come here to talk, and find friends that have no association with your W that you know you can talk to without it getting back to her. If any friends or family ask then just say the two of you are going through some struggles and are working on it, and say no more.

[KGuy]

Thanks for replying AnotherStander. Very helpful stuff.

Don't wait to GAL. GAL does not mean you are leaving the M, it just means you're detaching and focusing on you. And you need to do that regardless of what happens with the M.

Nah, i meant, just keeping down the path my newly gotten life has in store for me. If the W came back, I'd get another life that included her of course. Both paths would be different.

I see a lot of people here complain about being stuck in limbo. The thing is, you're only in limbo if you let yourself be. Limbo = stuck in one place. Clearly we don't condone sitting still here. We're constantly telling people to get out and GAL, improve their wardrobe, lose weight, get in awesome shape, meet people, reconnect with old friends and family, etc. etc. Does that sound like limbo? Not on your life! You can stand for your M while still moving forward with your life.

I guess at this moment, I'm looking to emphasize things i know that attract her. Chenges made are a combination of things that were dicussed in MC as well as things i know that attract her to me. If those don't pan out in getting her back, then it'd feel like limbo emotionally even if intellectionally i know i'm improving myself. The thing would be that in the process of GAL, surely there might be the possibility of something else, and I'd feel the temptation to move on. Don't like thinking like that, but I'm always weighing contingencies.

Oh man! It might be a shorter list to answer what is not GAL I mean wow- take a painting class, take a sculpting class, or glass blowing, or get a bicycle and start riding, or pick up jogging/ running, lift weights, do Crossfit (Crossfit is particularly awesome because you will have a whole new family in no time at all), go rock-climbing, go to the park and fly a kite, build models, fly R/C planes, fly rockets, get a tan, join Habitat for Humanity and build houses, work on a car or motorcycle, do some home improvement projects, organize your closet, go hiking, learn to swim, etc. etc. And that is just my personal list! I did (and do) all of those things and more!

Yeah, I have plenty of interests. For instance, i haven't gone fishing in quite some time. I was asking (although not very well) if i should deemphasize some things especially the things that i did while i was with her (ie instead of GAL, it Get the Same Old Life, GSOL). For instance, it doesn't excite me to work on my house, however the financial freedom that i will get from that does excite me.

That's fine, as long as you have no expectations. Also understand that if your W's love language is Words of Affirmation, that compliments are not WoA. Have you read The Five Love Languages?

I have it (downloaded the PDF of it awhile back, but its not been read yet. .. came first before that since i thought that could help me (and it did somewhat). I already know affirmation is her language without reading the book, she has asked for more of this from me in the past and i'm real bad about that sort of thing. I was just worried that it would be the opposite of the "no contact". I just got the DB & DR book and that is top of the reading list right now (a bit over hallfway on the DB book now).

That on the other hand is not fine Don't have discussions with mutual friends or family about your sitch. Come here to talk, and find friends that have no association with your W that you know you can talk to without it getting back to her. If any friends or family ask then just say the two of you are going through some struggles and are working on it, and say no more.

Point taken, its just that she used to give me insight as to what is going on with her daughter. From her response i did get insight, but you are correct that i don't want it getting back to her that i asked about her.


Had more contact with her as she was cleaning out her Mom's garage (again next door). She was cleaning her Mom's garage and made a snide comment when i responded to her daughter that it was good she was doing that. A litte backstroy is that she had always wanted to organize my/our garage, but I resisted as I wanted to wait until we built an extension on it prior to fully organizing. At least there is some dialog, wheras I was fully shut out before.

I know she is trying to pool her and her Mom's resources to move away from next door. This clean-up effort is another step to doing that. Although her moving away would alleviate some problems, it will make it more difficult for a reconciliation (and she knows that).