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#2748734 06/28/17 12:25 AM
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I WAS OR WHAT 9


As my last thread is nearly full I prefer to post in a new thread for a new beginning. A dramatic sentence that my post may not live up to!! I feel live wears me down and when I realise that I appear stuck again, I find the motivation to put in a new effort to change this. I am not specifically speaking about my situation but more in general.

I don't post that much in my own threads because I prefer to use the time it would take me to post, to figure out what I am going to do. I don't have all the answers and know posting here can help, but for now I feel a better use of my time is soul searching and solution finding.

In general I am low on energy at the moment. I assume it is to do with other non r stresses in my life, which I am seeking solutions for. I still manage to do some sport so I doubt it is physical. I am keeping an eye on this to be safe but not adding it to my stress list yet!!

But to start a new thread maybe it is time to discus my situation a little. Although still a few months away I will be at this three years shortly. I am fairly confident to make that mark and to be still with my W. It is possible either of us could hit a breaking point, but I don't think so.

So where are WE at. At a glance pretty much where we have been. Maybe one day I will take the time to analyse in-depthly the changes I notice, but for now an overview is enough.

A lot is missing from our R, but recently there has been a slight increase in better moments together. Nothing ground shattering but still improvement. These moments are still separated by nonconnected moments but objectively there seems to be more. Last week we chatted easily for over an hour one evening, covering many topics including future home improvement projects. In itself it wasn't huge but compared to other times where conversation is laborious or non existent, it was nice.

W does not initiate physical contact but more and more puts herself in situations where I usually will. Not sexual but still contact. Earlier on this would be shrugged off or avoided. There have been a few moments where she has placed her hand on me during banter. Again small stuff, but still am improvement.

I could list on and on micro improvements. Are these worth it. No. But they highlight a possibility of more. Time will tell.

There have been moments where I wasn't as nice as I would like to be and others where I outright needed to not spend time with her. At other times I pushed slightly towards her doing stuff alone or me taking the kids on my own. Sometimes I pushed harder than I prefer. But regardless my W has almost systematics chosen to stay around or come with us. In the future I will forge out more time alone with my.boys because I really want it. There seems to be less of a pull awayness about her. She is not all in but definitely not all out either.

So in essence the limbo continues. I am OK with that for the moment. I am not happy to just sit back, give it time and see how it developes. I will continue to try to chip away at her walls, at my imperfections and at improving the connection between us. Recently I read three M/R books:
1. ILYBNILWY book
2. SSM by Michelle
3. SSM guide for men

Shortly I will note some points I took from these. Until then best wishes to ye all


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2748735 06/28/17 12:30 AM
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was or what 9

Last link didn't seem to work.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2748892 06/28/17 09:53 AM
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Hey Roist, sorry I don't have any words if wisdom at the moment. I also seem to be at a low point. I just wanted to pop in to offer my support and say that I appreciate all the encouragement you give me on my thread smile


Me - 47
H - 45
D-16
M - 6 years
Separated - May 16

Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
Coly23 #2748899 06/28/17 10:16 AM
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God bless you roist...I hope and pray that all goes well.


Me 49 W46
T25 M22
S22 D18 S13
W had EA Apr-Jul 2016
Dropped Bomb 7/9/16
ILYBINILWYA
HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17
Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
SBJ #2748942 06/28/17 08:47 PM
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Thanks coly & sbj.

The lows help us appreciate the highs more.

Over the last six months my focus was primarily on other stuff but every now and again I put a little effort into improving my knowledge and hence adapting/tweaking my approach with W. That is why I read three books recently. I will take learnings from all three, mix them with what I do already and enhance my approach.

I have a few delicate balancing acts that are not easy to perfect. I don't stress about that anymore. I do my best. If I fail, it is not a loss. Those balancing acts are:
# detaching yet remaining attached. I have not fully detached but I think I can readily accept either outcome. At some points it is harder to be attachedthan detached!!Here everyone is encouraged to detach. People forget that it is the outcome you should detach from most of all. Detachment is not easy to achieve but is essential. In most cases here it is better to fully detach. I feel my situation is an exception. Feel free to contradict my opinion.
# show W I do not need her versus wanting to be with her. Early on I did a lot of work to eliminate my need for us to stay together. It was hard but I got there. Once that need is gone, it became a choice to want to stay together. A choice I make consciously and unconsciously each day. The balancing part is demonstrating to W my independence and unneedinesswhilst not becoming cold nor distant. Early on I had to fake it.
# accept less than ideal situation as a phase to get through versus not being happy with how things are. I have not settled for less. I am accepting less for now. I deserve more. I will have more. In the meantime I accept without resentment where we are. My W is giving all she can at the moment.Believing that helps me put aside my needs and desires temporarily.
# giving space versus building connection. My W is available to me every evening. If I am OK with TV/series/DVD that is often how we spend our small window of time after kids are in bed. I am often tired so that is OK but I want more. That is not living. So some evenings I have other stuff to do first, or for most of the evening. It is not easy to judge how much space and how much together time W prefers, so I do what works best for me whilst remaining considerate. W appears to wait for me so we can do nothing together on the couch!! Together I like, doing nothing I like less. But slowly I am introducing small stuff we could do together and more often than not W is up for it.
# supporting silence versus fruitless conversation. I have a simple solution to silent treatment, I go get busy. It is often just before I get up to leave that W will open up a conversation. She seems to sence my imminent departure. I don't prefer to do stuff alone but it beats feeling alone together. Sometimes I do chip away to try engage a conversation but mostly it is better to not pers8st unless she is receptive.
# being attracted and being repulsed by her. Every day there are moments I genuinely see great things about my W. In those moments she is beautiful and great. Everyday I also see her lost soul and distant interactions. That person is not someone I want to be with. I look for the former as much as possible and ignore the latter as much as possible. My W has her own inner battle raging. I am rooting for the former! I am lucky that at least once a day there is a moment that I am in awe of my W and see why I stand. That moment may only last seconds but still.

OK that is a snapshot of my daily abalancing acts. But tbh it is just how things are and not a head wrecker where I stress to find the best way to navigate this situation.

I will note some stuff I picked up during my recent reading and then will more than likely drop away from my thread again.

Thanks for reading.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2748943 06/28/17 09:29 PM
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Specifically you comment about "giving space versus building connection" is so similar to my situation. We have been doing the same with my W. But recent events are derailing me due to being on the brink of separation.

Wish you all the best. Stay the course. Decrease the number of books is wise. I did the same, even stopped looking at some all together not to get confused.


Me: 43, W: 43
M: 16, T: 18
D - 7, D - 7
ILUB: 26 August 2014
Still living together
WillDo #2749004 06/29/17 03:40 AM
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Roist - just want to say kudos to you for the quiet work you do over there. I read the list of your balancing acts and the way you remain present through it all is commendable.

I particularly empathize with the last act of seeing glimpses of beauty in your wife and cherishing those in a sea of distant interactions.

It is helpful to read this; just as helpful as the advice you give. Thanks for taking the time to post.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
roist #2749093 06/29/17 01:17 PM
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Roist,

Have you been spying on me?

Your list is awesome for a bewildered LBH like me who is constantly second guessing himself.

The two hardest for me:

Detaching and maintaining attachment.

Giving space while building connection.

I used to think these were contradictory things. I now see the wisdom of them.

Peace,

Gordie


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2749373 07/02/17 11:48 PM
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Busy weekend. Interactions poorer than usual. I will review my contribution to that and move on. It is how it is. Sometimes I wonder if I am.too accepting of the situation, too resigned to it being that way. Sometimes it is all I can do is to keep standing regardless, but at times there is room for me to do more to change things.

In that vain of thought, here are some snippets I gathered from a book recently. These are things that resonated with me and that I wanted to note here for my easy future reference.

"The moment you take responsibility for EVERYTHING in your life is the moment you can change ANYTHING in your life." Quote from Hal Elrod

Regardless of who is right or wrong you must take responsibility for your contribution to the state of the M. No more blaming. No more excuses. No looking for quick fixes. Do whatever it takes to regain W's respect and build a world class M.

W does not want you to read her mind. Too easy and superficial. She's a treasure trove of beauty and complexity. She wants you to dig and to work for it. She wants you to pull it out of her. She wants to know she's your priority. She wants yo know youcare about her pain.

Intimate and lasting M are forged when we anticipate the day to day needs of W and spring into action before asked.

Ask yourself:what's one thing I can do this week to begain moving from zero to hero in Ws eyes.

Each morning answer:
1 name 1 thing grateful for about W
2 what's 1 thing I can do TODAY to be a better H?
3 what's one thing I can do TODAY to communicate my love and appreciation for W

Each evening ask:
1 what did I learn today about W or myself
2 what's one thing I could have done differently/better today?
3 what do I want to say to her before falling asleep

You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. Choose carefully.

Ask W weekly what it would take to have perfect R.

A lot of people give up when they get negative feedback.Sone get mad at feedback. Others ignore it. Best response is : "thank you for caring enough to share that with me" without feedback we cannot improve.

Use W feedback to determine what needs to change,what will I do differently this week,how will I track progress and whose help will I enlist

At end of conversation ask is there anything else she wants to say.

Agreeing with W helps her feel heard.

For a M to thrive: keep choosing her and show it.

The essence of romance is " I'm thinking about you"

"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also". Whatever you invest in , your heart will grow more fond of/more attached to

The deepest craving of human nature is the need to be appreciated.

If you want a different harvest, begin planting different seeds TODAY

I reiterate my message that these ate just notes taken out of context for me to refer to later.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2749375 07/02/17 11:55 PM
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thank you Roist. So much here also resonated with me. Certainly many things I could have and ought to have done differently while married. I'm happy for you that you've been given the opportunity to use these while still together.

Hang in there xoxoxo

It's a process. A marathon, not a sprint.


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
bttrfly #2749398 07/03/17 03:35 AM
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Thanks bttrfly.

I used to wonder if I got lucky and decided to save myM just before it was too late. I started trying before I got bombed. Time will tell on that one.

But I am appreciative of still having my W at home. Until one of us voices it is over, I move forward believing that a turn around is possible. That is different from believing that it will.

I also get to see my W struggle with being unhappy. She is not in a good place. So when it gets to me I think it is probably worse for her. She is a shadow of herself and that is sad.

I would lie if I said that makes it easy, but it does make it easier.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2749762 07/06/17 01:11 AM
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hey there brother, i visit to read and keep up, just do not post as time just not allowing me the luxury these days.

Originally Posted By: roist


I used to wonder if I got lucky and decided to save myM just before it was too late. I started trying before I got bombed. Time will tell on that one.


Probably some truth in that statement. The resentment was already in place though. It just hadn't fully converted to contempt like we see with so many of the other situations (mine included). We cannot take that resentment away or fix it. Wife needs to chose to let whatever it is go on her own. THAT is the her struggle.

You keep paving a path towards loving yourself and in the process, giving an example to her of how it is done to your wife. The reward is that YOU will eventually find that happiness that YOU have always been looking for. If your wife never chooses to find her road, it will be sad, but that is not your burden to carry.

I think that of all the shortfalls in my marriage, lack of intimacy, giving, etc. the biggest disappointment is that despite all of the effort towards trying to please my wife, i have fallen short. That is on me and my expectations. It is a burden that i've carried all these years and part of detaching is teaching that i can lay that one down. It was never my responsibility to begin with. How much of my self-worth was tied up in trying to please her...someone who is never satisfied.

I hope someday she will find peace and lose the misery. But we can't just sit by and wait, that day may never come and the precious years go by so fast now.

I am proud of you for all that you have accomplished these last months and years. Your race sounded amazing (wish i could have seen you finish), you have been getting out and being YOU. There is still much room to grow and you are starting to really blossom.

I don't know what brought me here today, i wanted to say hi and that your effort towards a better you, your patience and your love for your wife and family are a beacon that i have followed for so long. Thank You!!!!

BTW, if you remember my skating team...i posted some pics there on the last FaceBook post smile


M - 40's
W - 30's
Two Sons
Living together
Zephyr #2749821 07/06/17 04:27 AM
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Roist,

Thanks for sharing your list. Always inspiring and thought provoking. Why did you say your interactions were not so good?


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Zephyr #2749953 07/07/17 12:32 AM
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Z what a nice surprise to hear from you. Thank you for taking the time to write.

I have been thinking about setting up an account to join the fb DB group to see what is happening there and to check if you were there. I will get to that thissummer. I remember your team and had checked out their website.

My pleasure to hear from you was tarnished by interpreting that your M is still as it was. I wished you otherwise. I was heartened however to learn you are still busy and making the most of the rest of your life. I recommend your story to anyone with a live in WAS as a great example of how to really live regardless of this one aspect of our lives. I will get there too. You are dead right about not putting life on hold.

I looked into derby racing here but at the moment it doesn't cater for guys! Guess gender equality works or doesn't work in both senses. Haha.

Anyway best wishes and I appreciate the visit


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
Gordie #2749958 07/07/17 12:46 AM
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Hi Gordie

Thanks for your appreciation.

I can usually count on having one or several good interactions each day. I encourage and create opportunities for these to occur. But when they don't I don't force them. I give W space and let the poorer interactions just be.

"Good" and "poor" are relative. Positive and negative maybe better terms. Or Eben less negative and negative could apply. But I seek out the positive. It is a choice and truly helps. Last weekend we had a lot on and the limited interactions were low quality. This process is not linear. This happens.

Hope that clarifies it for you

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2749977 07/07/17 02:02 AM
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Roist,

Thanks. Yes, that makes sense. I like that you are always so darn positive. And yes, I get that this is non linear.

You have s7 and s9 and your situation has been going on for years. How does this affect them and your parenting? My kids that age notice big things like who is sleeping where but not sure how much they understand about the less tactical issues.

Gordie


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2749988 07/07/17 02:57 AM
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A good question Gordie. One I would need all weekend to answer properly. In essence I would be naive to believe our situation has not affected our parenting and hence the boys. But I believe that affect is limited.

Indirectly we are not giving them roll model I would prefer as to how a couple should be. But when they go to bed, they know/see us together (usually on the couch) if they come down. It is important they see us having adult time together, so that is a positive.

We do coparent together and back each other up in front of the kids. It is more of a tag team effort than working together. But we both love our boys and both work towards what is best for them. Another positive.

But we don't discus issues as fully as I think we should and this surely has a negative effect on how we parent. Room to improve there.

My W has a closer R with boys, partly because she works roughly the same hours they are at school and hence has more time with them. But mostly because she is invested in being a good mother. That is positive.

Our boys are a handful at times. Good but very spirited boys. The youngest is going through a long phase of not wanting to cooperate. It is amazing to see my W use loads of different techniques I read about. I try too. She says it is up to us to find thevspproach that will work. Two positives in that. Firstly she is seeking solutions and secondly it is US. But let's just say the books and videos make it appear easy. I believe he will get through this phase .it is a stress, but a common /shared one.

I am a better father than I would have been if I wasn't in my situation. Another positive. I have shortcomings I am working on.

For the moment our boys are IMO best served by having both of us home.

The topic is a lot deeper than this, but that is a good summary.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2749997 07/07/17 03:16 AM
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Roist - I too like the list and your positivity.

Regarding your kids and the home environment, though not optimal (I know), there's also a lot of good stuff there.

Thanks for posting.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
roist #2750087 07/07/17 09:57 AM
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Thanhs for the insight. You sound like you are doing great but also realistic about he situation. It is good your w is doing well in her mothering and that she sees you as an US for that. I understand kids being a handful as I have and am going through those periods myself. Try 2.5x as many kids--never a dull moment!


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2750302 07/09/17 11:29 PM
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Ha who. Thanks for your support. Yes things could be a lot worse.

Gordie. Maybe the toll of having 5 kids contributed to your W's mlc. That is a lot of cooking, cleaning and issues to handle. I am sure the elder kids help but still they create work and issues too.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2750312 07/10/17 12:52 AM
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I recently read Michelle's book on SSM. I was initially not overwhelmed by it, but I did like how her thinking was very coherent and similar to DR. I think I didn't like how the book targeted everyone (men, women, high sex drive and low sex drive) but to cover the topic properly that is actually necessary.

Here are some key points I took away from the book. Again I emphasize that within the book they are expanded upon and put in context. Again this list is for me to refer to later.

The book emphasises the connection between emotional intimacy and sexual intimacy. Some things to do to improve connection include:
# put W first. She has to feel important and appreciated
# spend time together
# take share of household workload off W
# speak your mind, be clear.Share feelings/vulnerability.
# ask "do you want the kids to grow up not seeing any affection in a couple, don't you think it would be better for them to have a better tole model?" Whereas I agree totally with the sentiment I am not sure I like this question as it is.
# rather than criticise, talk about how you are feeling
# show empathy
# think about where you are stuck and next time, do something different
# if all else fails be brutally honest. Spell out what you have been thinking about. Say it is not a threat but you don't know what else to to. Ask partner to help solve this........ then wait and see.

Michelle outlines a lot about communication which is orth reading.

!
A lot of her approach involves direct communication with spouse, which most WAS aren't receptive to. I have tried a lot of indirect stuff the last two years and think that now I need to cross off some more direct approaches from my list. I am realistic about what I think may or may not work for me, but I don't want to assume this. Time to experiment!!

With direct approaches many seemed too textbooky and I wasn't comfortable just saying something textbooky. I am now going to adapt some approaches so they sound like me speaking not just learned. This weekend I asked my W ( who is starting two month summer break with our boys at home):" is there anything I could do that would help her pass a better summer?" The reply was reserved but essentially she is a big girl and can ask if there is. I have asked a similar question before and the reply was "not that she could think of". The next day something went wrong with the kids and she spurted out that if I wanted to do something I could ............ I took note even if it was reactive instead of the ideal proactive.

Both times my W has not taken the opportunity to open up or list stuff. Maybe that will come in time or with consistent asking.BBut it did not kill me to ask either.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2750326 07/10/17 02:21 AM
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Great job at trying to continue to improve things and trying new things. In general, I agree with the emotional and sexual connection. The part I struggle with is initiating and not initiating as I think my w is one of those MWD describes as sometimes not being in the mood until she is actually doing it.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2753878 07/29/17 08:07 AM
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Checking in to see how you are? Good job on emperors ting with different approaches.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
HaWho #2754131 07/31/17 01:37 AM
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Thanks HaWho, I appreciate you checking in on me. Thanks

I am hectic at the moment especially at work. I am not making time to come here often at the moment. I have two more heavy weeks of work before taking two weeks away with the family. I have mixed feelings about family holidays.TThey generally pass OK with fun moments, but it is hard to ignore the missing aspects when together 24/7.

Over time my W has demonstrated again and again her emphasis on being a family. The latest is she wants to set up a family email address for us and our sons to all have access to and she wanted our wedding date to be the password as that was when we became a family. I am all for us being a family but I don't believe it is truly possible without being a couple too/first.II have been close to saying that to her and may do so on a future occasion

5here are loads of other examples of this.

Another funny thing (well not really funny!! ) is she criticizes her parents R and how they interact but is following their path. I have changed my negative interactions which formed half of this dynamic. I am grateful to be able to see this kind of stuff, though the years of blindly taking my R for granted (no I would even say when I didn't care less about it during my depression) will not be easy to overturn.

HaWho, job recently told you that your h is comfortably stuck and may need a prod to become "unstuck" . My W may be the same. They both seem OK with not being okay. Maybe one day we will have to let them know that not being okay is not OK by us. I have other bridges to cross first but I do see that potentially down the line. I also believe in it's power as it is that that woke me up from my depression and allowed me decide to save my M.

Thanks for the prod to post.

Best wishes to anyone reading


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2754166 07/31/17 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: roist

Another funny thing (well not really funny!! ) is she criticizes her parents R and how they interact but is following their path.


It is truly odd that they are going down the same hole that their parents did, yet they cannot see that they are.

Mine is doing to me the same thing her mother did to her father, yet she cannot see it. Her mother, on the other hand, is beginning to wake up and see that it is happening.


Originally Posted By: roist

I have changed my negative interactions which formed half of this dynamic. I am grateful to be able to see this kind of stuff, though the years of blindly taking my R for granted (no I would even say when I didn't care less about it during my depression) will not be easy to overturn.


I'm sure we all took our marriages for granted at times. There is nothing to be ashamed of, but instead we should be grateful that we have recognized that and will try our best to not do it again. Just as MWD has said, we are becoming the people our spouses would be crazy to leave. We are doing our homework and are trying to fix our faults so that we can become so much better at our jobs of parents, spouses, friends, lovers, etc.


Me 49 W46
T25 M22
S22 D18 S13
W had EA Apr-Jul 2016
Dropped Bomb 7/9/16
ILYBINILWYA
HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17
Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
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Roist,

Do you think that cultural differences contribute to your issues?

Could you say more about your energy work / alternative therapies?

Heading out on a family vacation soon; any suggestions for making the best of it?do you guys sleep in the same bed?

Gordie


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2755010 08/04/17 07:00 PM
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Gordie

Thanks for your questions.

No I doubt cultural differences has any part in our downfall.

Can you ask a more specific question about the energy?

On holidays we bring the same baggage as at home.So I expect that there will be some moments that are less pleasant than I would prefer. Knowing this helps me be less affected by them. I carve out some me time each day without impacting family time/activities. We both put a lot of energy into the kids. Two years ago it felt like she was on holidays with her kids and I was there with mine. That was terrible. Since there has been slight improvement but still takes a lot to get through.

Our situations are different though. Your holiday could be perfect with minimal mlc behavior. However I would advise you to expect some and find a way to brush past them.

Yes we share the same bed. Have done so throughout this. With very rare exceptions we go to bed together at same time too, just after we check in on our boys...... like a normal couple!!

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2755023 08/04/17 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: Roist

Yes we share the same bed. Have done so throughout this. With very rare exceptions we go to bed together at same time too, just after we check in on our boys...... like a normal couple!!
Roist I cannot imagine how painful that can be at times. This process requires so much patience and compassion.
You have an abundance of both.
{{{{{hugs}}}}}
xoxoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
roist #2755039 08/05/17 12:55 AM
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Re energy work...what exactly have you done and has it been helpful to you? Do you see an empath? An energy worker? Have you just learned about it and done practices on your own? How has this helped or not helped you? What do you think about energy work compared to other spiritual practices?


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
bttrfly #2755257 08/07/17 01:51 AM
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Thanks bttrfly for appreciating the difficulty of my.situation. it is no longer painful but nonetheless remains difficult. I have tried conveying what it is like on several occasions but maybe it needs to be lived to be understood fully. That being said if anyone can understand it is the good folks here.

But it's not all doom and gloom. Having "normal" aspects to our lives helps keep standing. My W contributes a lot to our home and especially our sons. They are definitely winners and even if we split now they are almost three years older and that will help them.

I also get to see her unhappiness and her struggle. This is no walk in the park for her and is in all likelihood worse for her. And yet she is still here. A big part of that is likely to be not wanting to lose half her time with our sons but even the fact that that registers is more positive than many others.

Unfortunately I don't see my situation changing any time soon. Remember a while back I mentioned my W cleared out her special occasion underwear when we redid our bedroom cupboard. They stayed for months in the spare room and last week were bagged and brought to recycling. When I saw it bagged I almost mentioned it but resisted. Sure she doesn't need them to be sexy!! Whereas it is great she doesn't want to keep them for attracting someone else, it did feel like it condemned any turnaround in the near future.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
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Sbj thanks for dropping by and posting.Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2755270 08/07/17 02:22 AM
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Roost,

Re lingerie. Given your history, I understand the distress but maybe if you do get things going again to start with new ones anyway. It would represent that it's different and new now. Keep being the awesome dude you are.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2755274 08/07/17 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: Gordie
Re energy work...what exactly have you done and has it been helpful to you? Do you see an empath? An energy worker? Have you just learned about it and done practices on your own? How has this helped or not helped you? What do you think about energy work compared to other spiritual practices?


Gordie,
I will try to answer briefly.

Firstly I think anything done in the interest of improving one's self is always worth while.

The person I went to is someone I know and that actually prevented me from going sooner. But eventually I wanted to feel better much mote than I was reluctant to discuss my personal life. I went to see her about my depression and had done a few sessions before my non bomb drop with W. So I added my.M crisis to the conversation.

Sessions consisted of some more traditional chats about feelings and other issues etc. That alone helped and this woman has a lot of experience which shows. Treatment was more unconventional in that she realigns my energy flow with that of the universe. It is a lot more technical than that but for simplicities sake, that explanation is adequate.

I personally did find that it helped me. According to her, she removed energy blockages within me. Repressed emotions, specific stresses etc caused such blockages.

Before going to her I had been in a dark dark place with my depression. Since even though I have had bad episodes due to my M crisis I never became as dark as I was beforehand.

My therapist is in touch with a lot of stuff that I don't really know about or don't know how much I believe.But I have confidence in her. TBH she could have said it all stemmed from my grandfather was abducted by aliens and she has done the necessary so that I am better. I was just interested in feeling better . And.no my grandfather wasn't abducted by aliens and she never claimed he was. My point is my belief in her methods was secondary to my desire to feel better.

I am no expert in different treatments but there is a good plausible logic to this methodology.

Speaking of the spiritual side of things and not wishing to vex the religious readers, but I have observed huge correlations between religion and the law of attractions. However for both you need to be open minded enough that it could be true. The same applies IMO to alternative therapies. We should not rule them out just because unconventional

Oops not so short my answer!!

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2755284 08/07/17 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted By: roist


Speaking of the spiritual side of things and not wishing to vex the religious readers, but I have observed huge correlations between religion and the law of attractions. However for both you need to be open minded enough that it could be true. The same applies IMO to alternative therapies. We should not rule them out just because unconventional



Roist, there is no vexing here. There is a correlation...you are right. Those of us that rely on God and believe in His word do believe that He will grant us what we "need". Some that do not believe in God, rely on the "Universe" to deliver what they "want".

I choose to believe that God loves us all...those that believe and those that are unsure. He is a loving God that wants all of His children to come to Him for the things that they need in life.

Below are, what I believe, things that we have been told to do in the word of God...Sounds kind of like the Law of Attraction, but more like the law of God.

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Romans 4:17 …He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed, the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

James 1:16-17 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Matthew 6:33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Philippians 4:13 I can do everything through Him who gives me strength.

Psalms 37:4 Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart.

Matthew 7:7-8 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.


Me 49 W46
T25 M22
S22 D18 S13
W had EA Apr-Jul 2016
Dropped Bomb 7/9/16
ILYBINILWYA
HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17
Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
roist #2755388 08/07/17 10:55 AM
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Roist,

I wish I could speak to you in person. I ask becasue psychics and energy work, etc. have been central to my W's transformation. She feels she has reached a more enlightened state of being and while she has said it's okay for us to believe different things, I think this is an issue for her, for us. Also, I know these spiritual guides have pointed her towards divorce and/or supported her going in that direction. I listen to w without judgment but really don't know what to do with all of this.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2756096 08/11/17 05:57 AM
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It is a pity that the private message section of this site isn't activated, though I understand the reasoning behind that.

Gordie we are guided be who we let guide us and in a direction we want. People seek out anything that goes in the direction they seek. Two people could read the same self help article and get two completely different meanings/learnings from it.

I am not saying W intentionally sought out someone to tell her to D you. But she was/is unhappy. People even therapists seek to stop that pain and in some cases the quick fix is get rid of the spouse. I say fix but we know that fixes nothing.

I had a longer message but I am out of time. You cannot control or influence this part of things. I know it is hard to be a spectator watching something that you don't want happen. Just let it be and concentrate on you.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2756180 08/11/17 06:52 PM
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Roist,

Thank you. What you say makes sense. Maybe we'll meet some day and I can tell you the rest of the story. Sorry to hijack.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2756191 08/11/17 11:19 PM
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Maybe we will. No worries about hyjacking. I am soshort on tine these days that it suited me not to go to other threads.

Heading away today for a few weeks so I won't be around here. I will keep ye all in my thoughts.

Best wishes my DB friends.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2758310 08/28/17 02:25 AM
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Hi all in DB land.

The two week family holiday has come and gone. 24/7 for two weeks always leaves me deflated about our R. But this is motivating as it pushes me to make further changes to improve my life. I may list these later but for now I just want to mention that I have a list of actions all ME related in the pipeline.

The holiday was good in that I spent quality time with sons, discovered a new area, got in some exercise, ate good food, had great weather and made some good memories for us all.

As per all holidays in the last three years I thought of this one being possibly the last family one. Early on this depressed me but now I can turn that page with anticipation. I really don't like the way things are.

During the holiday one of our sons was very difficult at bedtime. This was a major stress, which spilled over into stress between W and I.OOne night I got annoyed about a comment W made. I had enough and told her that I wantED us to walk together in the same direction (regarding parenting) but it was too late for that now. I left for half an hour or so to get some air.We didn't discuss it further.

The next day things carried on as usual. Throughout the holiday we got on OK but with our usual lack of connection. Nowadays I am less active at recreating connection and replace it with other stuff. I can sit in silence longer than ever but tend more to leave such situations and do other stuff without W.

The night we got home W had a big blowout with my son. She got really upset (understandably) and shut me out as well as the boys. I learned somewhere that when you feel least like making an effort, is when one is most needed in a R. So I tried to show solidarity and empathy through various gestes. There was no togetherness at all. I gave her space.

Early the next day my W blows up again with sons. Long story short I sensed that my W's crisis was possibly coming to break point. I thought she would leave. Although not what I want, I didn't dread that. I take over looking after the boys as I did the previous evening. Things resumed their normal flow.

Yesterday I was frustrated with not being able to communicate with W about what to do. She made it clear she wanted to do something but every suggestion I made wasn't acceptable. I decided to go do a small task and come back to her.

When I did W expressed her dislike for me ignoring her. This lead to one of our longest conversations in a while and definitely the deepest in years. II resisted saying my first thoughts as they mostly were defensive or critical.It was calm. I explained I wasn't ignoring her but when she appears not interested I keep myself busy. She stated she never said she wasn't interested to which I replied, not in words.

I asked her when was the last time she asked me about my day. My work or about me? She countered when was the last time I volunteered such info without needing 50 questions. I said I do so from time to time but is often received with indifference so I am less inclined to do so now. She told me I needed to make a big effort to improve my communication.II replied I would love to have us talk and communicate more effectivelybbut that isn't possible when one person is checked out.

The conversation went on a little more but got interrupted and was never finished. I may reopen it but first wanted to hear from you guys and especially Job.

Three great positives were spoken by my W.
1. Is interested in the goings on of my life
2. Wants better communication
3. Wants us to do more when kids are busy

The conversation is tinged by her putting the onus on me to improve the communication and me ignoring her. I placed some truth darts about her part. She stated my lack of communication as one of the main reasons she checked out. I accepted my part in her checking out, but restated that I cannot and will not communicate with someone not present too.

I got to go but I would love to hear how you guys interpret recent episodesiI will say more after feedback.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2758408 08/28/17 09:52 AM
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Roist,

Love how you are always looking for the positives.

Positives:

R detaching more
R zero expectations
W aired some of her complaints
W also doesn't want things to continue as they are
R accepted some but not all responsibility
R pointed out w also needs to change

Negatives:

W getting angrier at kids
W didn't accept responsibility


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2758444 08/28/17 02:53 PM
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Interesting Roist, my H complains any time we have a talk (which isn't often) that I never tell him anything. I've told him time and again that he is the one who left and if he wants to know anything he needs to ask me. He just gets by on less and less information and tries to get it from the kids, who are no longer playing along with him. Now he just makes wild assumptions that I hear about from time to time. I was an over-sharer in the marriage and always gave him the low-down without him having to ask. Sounds like your situation was the opposite.

In terms of the experiment and annotate, have you ever tried to be more open and forthcoming just to observe what her response is and whether it opens a quest for information in her? Probably won't, but what have you to lose?

Gordie #2758494 08/29/17 12:36 AM
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Thanks Gordie,

The thing is she was at breaking point. I didn't interfer with that accept keeping the boys out of her hair. And instead of pulling further away she asked for more from me.

I don't know how much W accepts responsability but she is still self focused so you are probably right. Secondly the boys have been frustrating.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
OwnIt #2758497 08/29/17 12:59 AM
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Ownit

Thanks for your input.

I have tried. She does not refuse that I speak but often felt like there was noone there. Maybe now she is more receptive. I have nothing to lose.

In the very early days after I decided to work on the M I would have been able to discuss openly anything and everything. Slowly by continually hitting a wall I have slipped back. I am willing to put in an effort but only so much alone.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2758684 08/30/17 12:38 AM
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Job,
I would be interested in your opinion. Initially I was inclined to revisit the conversation as it really finished abruptly and seemed unfinished.

I will continue as is for now and improve my openness to communication. We have not had any R talk since Feb 2016. Chatting made me feel like I time warped back to the beginning of my journey almost three years ago, except I am detached and she expressed an interest in more.

I feel maybe the time is right to verbalise a little of what I want or don't want. I know it is too early to roadmap our happy ever after plan, but maybe time to state that the longer I am shut out, the less I want to get back in and sooner or later I am likely to prefer to not reconnect.

I don't mean issue an ultimatum but verbalise a reality. But even without expressing myself, a conversation could be enligthning about her perspective.

Job, you have a wealth of experience observing these situations that I value your insight. Others feel free to let me know what you interpret.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2758690 08/30/17 02:13 AM
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Dreams more than goals, roist?


Me: 53 H:38
T:20 M:14
BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression
S 1/16
PA 4/16
H filed 1/17

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Can't believe how long it's been since your last r talk. And kids driving you crazy? Yeah, that happens. No idea when it's right to initiate those given how long it's been for you and how you are feeling. And what made this vacation different to make you feel like maybe it was the last one?


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2758749 08/30/17 06:09 AM
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Tresure what is your question?

Gordie

Kids are a handful but as my W repeatedly pointed out to me it is of no good to blow your top with them . I avoided quoting her though!!

This holiday was no different to others recently. I guess it is less interesting to me to live that way. It is not full.

As for how long it has been, the rule is simple I never brought it up. Sounds easy but not. So now she has kind of brought it up, so I thought it worth mentioning.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2758754 08/30/17 07:01 AM
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roist,

Instead of you coming up w/suggestions on how to handle things and her rejecting each of your suggestions, why not try something different? If she shoots down an idea of yours, then turn the tables and ask her what she would suggest doing. Listen, validate and even bite your tongue if the suggestions aren't up to your liking. Sometimes, we have to turn the tables in order to get our point across. Give her the impression that you are open to suggestions and try them. If they don't work, then you may need to offer up additional suggestions. Open the door for conversation and allow her to step inside. Allow her to express herself and above all else...listen and you might be surprised at what you hear from her.

Just like teenagers, she doesn't know how to express herself properly and thinks "dad" will reject her ideas and call her to task about them.

BTW, I read all of the threads and sometimes I don't respond because I see that others have provided the same advice that I would have.

job #2759062 08/31/17 10:42 PM
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Thanks job, for your reply and the guidance you offer us all here.

I heard something today about damaging beliefs and one woman admitting/realising that whenever her H acted the way she wanted him to she couldn't get passed all the times he didn't and unc9nsciously 0unished his good behavior as being inadequate based on previous less attractive behaviour.

In essence instead of encouraging the better behaviour she reacted coldly due to her feelings in general about their R. Her reaction discouraged H to keep trying and reinforced the behaviour/ interactions she wanted to abolish.

I have been aware of this concept a long time now but today this resonated with me. Due to how we have been for so long has affected my ability to show fully my appreciation for the small positives I see. I have shown appreciation.II have expressed it and I have cherished it. BUT I have remained somewhat distant. I have shown love and respect whilst keeping distant.

I want to review this and adjust where possible. This is not who I want to bei don't do this believing it will improve things but with the belief that it could. Whether it does or not is beyond my control but I think I have squandered some potential connecting opportunities due to my limiting beliefs.

Long story short, I continue tweaking my approach and will do so. One day I may decide to move on but for now I am happy to move forward.

Thanks for reading. Be well


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2759099 09/01/17 01:47 AM
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Hi roist!

Quote:
I feel maybe the time is right to verbalise a little of what I want or don't want. I know it is too early to roadmap our happy ever after plan, but maybe time to state that the longer I am shut out, the less I want to get back in and sooner or later I am likely to prefer to not reconnect.

I don't mean issue an ultimatum but verbalise a reality. But even without expressing myself, a conversation could be enligthning about her perspective.


So you both want more from the other, but both are withholding to some degree for various reasons. Waiting, even hoping for the other to step up. Does this sound about right?

Since what you are doing isn’t working, maybe it’s time to try something new.

She told you what she wants/needs… give it to her! Then start doing a better job of telling her what you want/need, and why it is so important to you and the marriage. Go back to the section in SSM where Michele gives excellent guidelines for having “The Talk”.

Originally Posted By: roist
BUT I have remained somewhat distant. I have shown love and respect whilst keeping distant.


This is understandable, because you have been hurt. It's normal for us to pull back and detach to save ourselves. But is it working to bring you and your wife closer? It never worked for me.

Someone has to be the first to step up and make the extra effort. And yes, I know you already have, you haven't gotten everything you wanted, and it's not fair! Been there, done that.

Back to asking for what you want specifically and constructively. Don't fear this! You are in a relatively good situation.

You sound strong and like you have a lot left in you for your W and M. Try something new, take notes, do what works. Bust On!


M: A really long time.
Crisis: 5 years.
She's still worth it.

Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. -Viktor Frankl
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I guess my question was about dreams, both individual and shared, can be more of the deep, fun, future-focused stuff, a way to gently unfold new bits of each other. Goals might be a bit more humdrum and linked to lessons from the past.


Me: 53 H:38
T:20 M:14
BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression
S 1/16
PA 4/16
H filed 1/17

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oFY

Great to hear from you.

Maybe what I am doing is working!!! But I hear and second you. I also heard a M expert give his top tip to husband's about having a good M: give her what she wants. I say why not. It is not so simple and should not be done as a "nice guy"

However throughout this I have often thought that both W and I seem to have same sentiments, frustrations and issues but she put me on the enemy team. Recent episodes back up that but less of the enemy.

I am prepared to take a few more steps alone or first. I won't do it with condition but will add my requests to the table in time.

I have time. No need for knee jerk reactions. I take on peoples advice, mould NY opinion and then take appropriate actions.

Tresure, for me goals can be related to dreams, notjust mundane. Main high I say


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2759315 09/02/17 06:50 AM
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NY= my

Main= aim

Also meant to mention that being distant helps with detaching but hinders connection or possible connection. I did what I needed to get this far. I review periodically to see what continues to serve me.
Thanks. Again FY


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2759317 09/02/17 06:56 AM
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Maybe dreams are a more fun and less scary way to connect


Me: 53 H:38
T:20 M:14
BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression
S 1/16
PA 4/16
H filed 1/17

Treasur #2759324 09/02/17 08:00 AM
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I also see many positives.

If the kids are overwhelming and your w is interested in doing more when they are busy, why not try something different here? Maybe hire a babysitter and either have her put the kids to bed or you two put the kids to bed and then go do something fun.

She wants more time with you. That is HUGE!


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
HaWho #2760078 09/06/17 09:06 AM
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Hi Roist,

Seems that things are moving in a more + direction, as HA noted - wanting to spend more time with you IS huge! xoxoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
bttrfly #2760413 09/08/17 03:33 AM
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Thanks HaWho and bttfly for your views and support.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2760557 09/09/17 12:01 AM
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How are you doing? Have you tried opening up more?


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2761105 09/12/17 04:06 AM
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Gordie, thanks for asking. I may ramble but here is my answer!

Just after I picked up a bug and due to low energy I spent a lot of time resting. This may have prevented me striking while the iron was hot but I am not sure that would be better. So I used the time to share with you guys and reflect.

I still think my situation will continue to unroll glacially slow, so my thinking is around long term improvements introduced slowly and steadily.

I came across a podcast about happy W happy life, which struck a cord with me. Two suggestions in particular.
1. Keep a W journal noting many different kinds of thingsthat W likes, says, wants etc. It is a tool to track and remember imp stuff about W and more importantly to use to show you listened.
2 randomly do añ appreciation day for spouce which basically uses notes from journal to prepare stuff targeted to show appreciation

I have started the journal and include things to talk about and other actions to do together. This is small stuff to chat about each evening. So yes I have started being more active at opening up. From time to time I intend to bring up bigger stuff. I will test the waters and see how things go.

I love the appreciation day, but I am not sure it is appropriate for someone checked out. It could help her feel appreciated and listened to. Inversely it could show I didn't listen to her telling me she is checked out. Any thoughts?

I am inclined to try it as at this stage if no one does anything, nothing will happen. Plus I feel detached enough to handle anything.

Got to go.

Best wishes readers


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2761149 09/12/17 05:59 AM
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R,

I think it's a good idea for you to keep experimenting and monitoring results. I like your idea of writing down things she says she likes and appreciates and then following up on them. Appreciation day? Yeah, sounds like it may be too much for this season.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2761436 09/13/17 09:47 PM
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Gordie,

Here is my çurrent thinking on appreciation day:

1. My W feels unappreciated. Me showing her appreciation may not change that. That depends on where she is really. Recently I read something to the affect that we shouldn't do the job of our spouces. The context was that often people come up with the predicted response and don't do something based on that. She won't want to so I won't ask, kind of thing. How many of you reading this can relate to that sentiment pre- BD?
did and i tealise now it is s losing concept, one i prefer to gey rid of. I will issue a warning to other lbs reading this that for most lbs in crisis, this is not sonething to focus on yet.
2. I have worked a lot on gratitude and appreciation. I do show appreciation already and my W appears to put some effort into things I thank her most for.
3. Showing appreciation and feeling appreciated are not always linked. There are many factors to that but part of my motivation is also to be more appreciative. That I can achieve.
4. Over the last three years I have read a dozen or so books, I have read tonnes on the internet. I have listened to a few months (accumulated tine) of podcasts and videos. And I have listened to the advice here. This has all served me to a point. I have grown. But there are many things I choose not to do, because it wasn't the right time. I agree with that concept and believe it also served me well. However it is our actions that define our results. I am lucky in that my W is still there (somewhat) so I may as well try.
5. I don't think that this is a huge risk. It is not a declaration of undying love nor pressure to give back anything.
:
I have not decided but am close to doing a small appreciation day.

During our recent holiday I decided that it was time for some me focused actions. Here is a quick update on some I have taken:
# changed facial hair.
# sought out a new activity to do out of the house. Started last night doing guided meditation. This ticks many boxes for me. It us new, with new people. It is an activity that should benefit me. It is something I wouldn't have even considered doing publicly before, but am doing it regardless.II will go at least once a week and commit to daily practice.
# did a multisport raid race with a friend.
# planned to go away for a day to jog in the mountains

For the record I am grateful that my W is there so getting out isradier. I realise that this is possible with alternative guard too but still.

As always any comments, observations, warnings, advice or support are welcome

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2761464 09/14/17 12:52 AM
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R,

I like your comment about not pre emoting spouse's actions are responses to what you want to do. So sounds good that if you want to do the appreciation day, then maybe go ahead and do it. My concern is that if w feels in appreciated it is more about the daily thank you and noticing when the floor is mopped or her hair is re done than about something showier like an appreciation day, but I may be projecting on your situation. You know best.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2761477 09/14/17 01:07 AM
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Thanks for your view. I am mindful to express gratitude and appreciation daily. I have done low key version on Thanksgiving during this crisis. I will be careful to not go over the top.

But I can show appreciation even if she doesn't love me. Heck I could even do so if I didn't love her. They are unrelated technically though one could motivate/cause the other.

Thanks for waving the warning flag.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2762103 09/18/17 01:19 AM
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For the most part during this crisis my W has focused on looking after her kids. At times it felt like her kids (not ours) though for the most part I can't complain about this aspect of things. One issue I did have however is she tended to group me in with the kids and treat me as one f them. It took a concerted long slow effort but gradually I got that to improve and now she rarely talks to me as she would them. And if she does I let her know to talk to me differently. Furthermore now she almost always says "dad & I" when mentioning something or scolding kids, whereas before it was "I".

I mention this for two reasons. Firstly it shows some progress can be achieved by mindfully enforcing a boundary. Secondly and more relavent to this journaling is that she took on a mother role in our R.ThThis contrasted greatly with other behavior especially earl,y on in this crisis, where I would gave said she was like a teenager.

Friday night she went out with a friend (girl). She asked me at the table with the kids during the evening meal, if she had permission to go out!! I found the wording strange but replied I didn't mind if she went. She stayed out longer than intended. This wasn't an issue for me, but she never texted to let me know, which I didn't like.

I know we are supposed to not mention poor behaviour and emphasize good behaviour, but I still brought it up, by saying I would gave appreciated her letting me know. I said I wasn't her dad so I didn't like having to bring up something about common courtesy. She replied that when they go out they decide as they go along. And asked if we could take it that whenever she is out with this friend that that will be the case. I said I had no problem with that but I didn't see how sending me a text would affect that.

I don't have any fears about my W going out. What got to me was we care still effectively living as a married couple. Am I wrong to continue to have such expectations?

For me and standing up for how I am treated I think I was right to say something. Taking the bait and accepting the father role was probably not the best thing to do. Though at the time I felt like saying if she didn't want to behave as a couple, she can leave anytime. Another thought I came close to expressing was " how old are you?".

This is not a big issue but sparked memories of earlier behavior that hasn't been observed in a long time.

My W doesn't go out very often, just to state.

As mlc behavior goes this is tame. I know things could be a lot worse. But I imagine if things get a little worse I will not want to continue as is. She is free to leave but not to stay any which way.

I reread this thread to remind myself of those small improvements. I am probably just as likely to let W know I have had enough as I am to follow through on appreciation day! TBH neither stresses me. So watch this space to see whst happens. Tune in next time ..... though in reality you may need to check back in a few months before anything happens!!

In the meantime I may have found a second activity to do in a group. Roist is getting out there doing stuff and meeting new people. Yes.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2762190 09/18/17 09:49 AM
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Hi roist, just dropping by for a visit and to thank you for your advice and support on my thread.

I hope one day your W can see what she has in you as her H. You are a very kind and thoughtful man and you deserve to have a great marriage! (((Roist)))


Me - 47
H - 45
D-16
M - 6 years
Separated - May 16

Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
Coly23 #2762222 09/18/17 08:47 PM
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Hi Roist.
I will not characterize that as the father role. First off - it is common courtesy to let those you live with know if you will be gone longer than expected. Simple.

I'm glad you're add more GAL activities. I'm happy you can see the improvements. This takes so much time, doesn't it?

{{{{{Roist}}}}} xoxoxoxo hang in there, you're doing better than you think!


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Hi. coly. Thanks for your lovely message. It is good to have someone compliment my husband capacity smile I am sure one day I will have that special R I want (and yes deserve).

Early on I broke my incapacity to communicate well and discuss stuff with W. Since I have gotten used to poor communications and now that I have refocused on it I realise I am struggling to chat easily with her. I acknowledge that my shutting this side of things probably helped me cope, but I have some work to do to get back to where I want to be. In my defense I am not the only not starting conversations! II will work on my side and we'll see if that helps. I am not going to pressure myself though.

Bttrfly. Of course you are right, but if you had observed the conversation she was like a scolded teenager hence I must have been the father figure. Job says we should ignore such stuff if not important. For me it was a principle so I spoke up and hence she got the disapproving father treatment her mlc brain feared. I am not stressing about this but if anyone wants to comment on handling it different if it occurs again, that could be helpful.


Not much else to report except another observation. My W when she does something above normal chores she ensures I know how long she spent doing it. Typically I would notice something was done and thank her or other form of appreciation to which the response is often about how much time or effort she spent. I validate. It feels like she is seeking approval/acknowledgement. Whether this is sought to appease a need she has, or it is an effort to gain my approval appreciation idk. Until now I was sure that it was about her. Bit maybe a part is for me, to give me something to make up for what we don't have. This is speculation and not something I dwell on but I find it curious. Firstly because I think her LL is acts of service. But on another level, my 10 year old son would sometimes" spring clean" his room or do something else shortly after being scolded for bad behaviour,he does something extra "good" to make up for the bad behaviour and hence re establish the peace and how things were.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2762234 09/18/17 11:13 PM
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One of the hardest things that many have to endure is the MLCer living at home and in your face every day. They act out, i.e., like a teenager, in an adult body, and do not want to accept responsibility for their actions.

Your w's comment about asking for permission to go out sounds just like a teenager addressing their authority figure, i.e., parent. She sees you as a "father figure", someone she feels the need to be accountable too and frankly, she resents it. She wants to be able to come and go whenever she wants and leave you to take care of the family, etc. Your expectations of her being mindful and courteous about such things needs to be lowered. Teenagers don't always think about informing the parent just how long they are going to be out. They think it's okay to stay out beyond curfew, i.e., just as long as they don't get caught.

In a normal situation, people are generally more courteous and will state when they think that they will be home or will call/text if they are going to be later than what was discussed. You, unfortunately, like many others posting here, do not have a "normal" relationship at the moment w/an adult. I'm not making excuses for her behavior and you most certainly had every right to ask when she would be home.

Mlcers want validation and approval for things that they have accomplished. It doesn't matter if it is something small or large...they want to be recognized for their efforts. Yes, there are times when they do something wrong and there are two ways that they may deal w/that wrongful act: 1. sweep it under the rug and act as if nothing transpired earlier; or 2. Bend over backwards and do something nice for you. Of course, they also may go out of their way to be nice and do something that you will approve of...because they've done something that you will find out about later and they may feel guilty about not telling you about it.

Bottom line, you aren't dealing w/an adult. However, just as you would a child and/or teenager, you can point out their behavior if it impacts how things are being handled in the same household...just remember...it's how you address the subject w/them.

It's a one step forward, two step back process. If something works, continue on w/that...if something isn't working, then try something else.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2762243 09/19/17 12:07 AM
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Thanks job. I appreciate your insight and the guidance you offer us all here.

I was really close to asking her what age she was. Would such a question cause some inner thought?

I am relatively lucky that my teenage W behaves pretty well most of the time. My issues appear minor compared to others. Maybe she has realised over the last three years that I have lines she should not cross and won't really test them unless sure she wants out. I am mindful to enforce boundaries whilst avoiding controlling her.

With the exception of Zephyr I don't remember another couple here that continued to live as a couple throughout. Most live-in situations involve in house separation. This non-separation adds an extra layer of complications and issues that aren't present in many of the other threads. Whereas I won't judge which type of situation is preferable I would say I find it easier to know how to act in other people's situations.

Thanks again Job


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
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HaWho's h lives in the dorm room at their house. Check out her threads.

Asking her what age she is will not cause some inner thought. She may think you are making fun of her. It's best to just leave your midlife teen to herself.

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Originally Posted By: roist
Thanks job. I appreciate your insight and the guidance you offer us all here.

I was really close to asking her what age she was. Would such a question cause some inner thought?

I am relatively lucky that my teenage W behaves pretty well most of the time. My issues appear minor compared to others. Maybe she has realised over the last three years that I have lines she should not cross and won't really test them unless sure she wants out. I am mindful to enforce boundaries whilst avoiding controlling her.

With the exception of Zephyr I don't remember another couple here that continued to live as a couple throughout. Most live-in situations involve in house separation. This non-separation adds an extra layer of complications and issues that aren't present in many of the other threads. Whereas I won't judge which type of situation is preferable I would say I find it easier to know how to act in other people's situations.

Thanks again Job


Agree not asking how old she is. You are poking fun at her.

It frustrtates me when w goes out for long periods of time without telling me when she will be back leaving all adult responsibilities to me. But it didn't help if I asked or called or texted so I stopped.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
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Yeah I realise she could take it that way or just badly. It was just so obviously childish that maybe if prompted she would see that too. A kind of truth dart reflecting back at her. Job's advice and reasoning is noted for future reference.

Gordie I think you were right to stop. No point headbutting a wall. I have to balance the catering for her being in disconnected mlc land whist maintaining a "normal"life as a couple/family. That is my struggle and frankly that may be the hill we die on. For me if we live as a couple there are boundaries and a minimum of expectations. I don't force her to continue living as a couple.

It is more complicated than that but I don't have the time to elaborate our dynamics.

Thanks for your viewpoint which I appreciate


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2762766 09/22/17 02:44 AM
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Roist,

I have been thinking about your situation. It seems as if both of you are unhappy but there is no cataclysmic cause or catalyst for change--like an AP or a D filing. If the old M is dead, then how to precipitate change/rebuilding of a new one without a catalyst?


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2763343 09/26/17 09:32 PM
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Gordie

Another good question. One i have spent three years pondering. On the surface it would appear simple: reconnect and rebuild.

I could talk for hours on theories, strategies and potential options. Ranging from waiting it out to dropping an ultimatum and much more in-between.

I believe my W is not fully lost to me. Maybe that remaining part will vanish too and my story will follow the same path as many here. Or maybe a new better R can be built. Maybe I am deluding myself. But as long as I continue to work towards the me I want to be and my W doesn't pull further away I can support the situation. Not indefinitely though. As littl as I like this situation I don't see separation being better for any of us especially our sons.

Thanks for thinking about me and my situation.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2763777 09/29/17 01:17 PM
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I don't think your w is lost to you either.

I also don't think s makes sense to wait around but only you can judge your time frame.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
roist #2763793 09/30/17 01:10 AM
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roist,

Your W is not fully lost to you...but you need to continue moving forward. Notice, I didn't say "moving on". Moving forward, to me, means continuing to live your life and doing things that you enjoy. It means experiencing new and exciting things along the way, as you leave the door ajar and a candle in the window to guide your W home.

Some will return...and it usually happens when they see their spouses moving forward and living life to the fullest. When you let them go totally, i.e., heart, soul, mind and body...they know it and that's when many of them begin to wake up and slowly reconnect.

You and only you can decide what is best for you and your situation. No matter the outcome, you will be the one to make the final decision on the matter.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2763968 10/02/17 12:10 AM
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Thanks Gordie and Job.

I am doing my best at living fullest within the constraints of my situation. It would be infinitely easier to do that if separated. So why don't I take that easier path. Simply because it moves me away from my goal. I am well aware that that could also be the catalyst required.

For now I sense W is still there and there is a possibility of reconnection without separation. Time will tell.

Speaking of time. It has almost been three years since I declared to W that I was going to do what it takes to save our M. I said I was going to try alone if she wouldn't. I asked for a sign that she wanted to save our M. No obvious sign was given then or since. EXCEPT she is still here, wanting to do stuff together and living albeit limitedly as a couple.

That could be down to her inability to take the steps needed to leave. Maybe deep down she wants me to split the couple and hence the family. But I sense it otherwise.

She has expressed wanting to use our alone time better, do more when kids are occupied and that I (not we) communicate more. Due to doing what I needed to survive in this situation I now realise I am not able to come up with suggestions of stuff to do or to be fully open with her. In the early months of this situation I would have excelled at that. I am not going to over stress about that but it is noted so that I can reflect on it.

I am however disappointed about it as it was one of my first self improvement projects that I worked on and that I achieved.I am sure I can achieve it again. I was wondering if it was a question of ability or motivation. But in writing here I think I found the answer to be motivational.

Regardless my path forward appears to be two paths simultaneously which luckily can go in the same direction. The first is as job mentioned me moving forward, living life fully and focusing on my own needs etc. Parallel to that I will nurture the remnants of the connection between us. This is beyond leaving a candle in the window and the door ajar. I can do this because my two paths are parallel and down the road I can choose just to move forward on my own path. I like that path and know it could be great too. Whilst working on being a better H will also benefit me , there is a secondary consideration and that is if I ever do the last resort technique, the difference will be accentuated for W.

With our wedding anniversary coming up, plus the anniversary of me deciding to save M, followed by our anniversary of when we started seeing each other, I suppose it is normal to reflect on time. Tbh I would say we have a crap R, but we appear that bit better than recent years. That is not enough for me but it is still an improvement.

Thanks for reading


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2763987 10/02/17 02:47 AM
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roist, since my sitch went by so fast, I cannot understand what you have gone thru for this long. I did however have a suggestion as to what you and your W could do together. It is hard to come up with things, but some friends of mine each wrote out a list of activities that they each wanted to do...a bucket list if you will. They then compared the lists and picked one that overlapped. They took up sailing and now can go out together and enjoy themselves.

Another thing that he had stated is that he will invite his W to go do an activity that he really enjoys, but that she has never shown an interest in. He said by doing that she has learned why he really enjoys what he does. After that she invited him...He says that it has kept things fresh for them. They have been together since 1988 and M since 1993.

I have learned this since my sitch began...I so wish that I was able to take my W to play golf or to hunt and fish. These things I did without her to get away, but in retrospect, I realize how they could have brought us closer.

Keep on keepin' on!!!


Me 49 W46
T25 M22
S22 D18 S13
W had EA Apr-Jul 2016
Dropped Bomb 7/9/16
ILYBINILWYA
HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17
Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
SBJ #2764002 10/02/17 03:42 AM
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Thanks Sbj for your support and suggestions.

It's those learnings that we take away from this situation that are so valuable. I had read some R books before this to try improve my knowledge but infinetly more since. I am glad you see that.

Some people say F that and move on at the first hurdle, unfortunately to their next doomed R. If nothing else I want to learn enough from this to prepare my sons for M. I will formulate my learnings and pass them on. My eldest is 10 so I have time. I hope before then to be able to show him how a good couple interact.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2764630 10/07/17 04:43 AM
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Roist,

What are you planning to do for your anniversary?


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2764654 10/07/17 01:29 PM
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Hi Roist,
As always, you know I'm keeping you and your family in my thoughts and prayers. First, let me say I'm so deeply grateful to you for mentioning that site that has the loving kindness meditation. I've been doing that one every day and some days twice a day since last Thursday in the wee hours (3am - only thing that helped me sleep). I have had great days since - each one seems better and more positive than the previous one. I feel like I'm back to my pre-BD and pre-H's MLC self, my true self, and it feels so wonderful. Deeply peaceful, happy, filled with the joy of love and life. I've missed this me, so thank you my friend!

Secondly, the things that meant the most to me were as follows (a woman's perspective):

1. flowers for absolutely no reason, just because. I remember one time exh brought me flowers and simply said, "Because I think you deserve them and could use some cheering up." It still touches me deeply to think of it.

2. a simple walk together.

3. a quiet night sitting together reading

4. playing chess, cards, or a board game

5. the usual dinner and a movie out

6. take out and a movie in after the kids are asleep - or a really decadent dessert, like molten lava cake for two and a movie. or just some popcorn and a movie

Hope this helps. I completely understand the lack of motivation. I used to do most of the yard work, planted specific flowers in specific places for exh's enjoyment. After a while, I felt completely taken for granted and like it wasn't noticed or appreciated so I stopped. Of course, that was taken as a sign that I no longer cared enough to do these things. You don't want to go into that category.

It's hard fighting alone for your marriage. I think though that in her own way she's also fighting because she's still there and she's telling you she wants certain things. Communication is positive.

xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
bttrfly #2764936 10/11/17 12:42 AM
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Thanks GORDIE for your continued interest. I haven't decided exactly what I will do about this years anniversary. It will be low key though.

Bttrfly, thanks for your support. I am glad something I shared helped you. I do appreciate your womanly viewpoint. No I don't and won't go into that category.

Best wishes readers


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2765420 10/16/17 01:39 AM
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Journaling:

This weekend is our W anniversary. W had plans for the following weekend but due to circumstances it got moved up a week so W won't be here. How do I feel about that? Tbh it doesn't bother me much. I didn't feel like celebrating our anniversary much anyway. I like my W free time so I am looking forward to my weekend with my sons. I will admit that I wasn't overly pleased initially though accepted it immediately as just being the way it is. I examined closely why I disliked it so much. During this I realised I did something similar two years ago. It was unavoidable too plus u was only a year into my journey. I handled the communication badly just as she did this time. Lesson learned. This probably doesn't make sense to readers but I don't have time to outline more. It makes sense to me.

That does however expand on my recent response stating it will be a low key anniversary. I will let W make first move.

That being said, I haven't been happy with my thoughts lately. Nit feeling enthusiastic about W anniversary nor upcoming three year mark of trying to save M. I was focusing on what I didn't have, which never helps. So to get back on track I decided to do that "appreciation day" for W this weekend.It was relatively low key consisting of a note in a card about what I appreciate about her. I did end it by saying that i wanted to show her with more than words so i invited her to ask me to do anything. Plus a few scratch cards with photos of stuff she liked that we could buy/do if she won. These were given at three different times over the weekend.

My first comment about this is that it seemed right to me. I immediately got a huge benefit from thinking and listing all I appreciated. It changed my focus. Beforehand I was annoyed and adamant that if things continued that this would be our last anniversary. This exercise didn't erase that thinking but dramatically shifted my thinking and I prefer the resulting mind frame.

Ironically how W reacted was secondary to me and I had no expectations either way. My W's reaction was quite!No huge reaction.But over weekend there were some subtle changes, mostly in a good way. There was also an increase in negative comments about stuff not being done "right". I overlooked the delivery and saw it as her asking for something in her own way! Though once or twice I rephrased her comments positively and asked if that's what she was saying. She did ask me to do one specific job, which I did. We also discussed house projects that we mentioned before but have let slid. Looks like we are going to be working together on those shortly.

I am still actively GAL too and am increasingly out doing my activities, including some late nights. On the rare nights W is out late, I notice it hits home harder the distance between us. I don't dwell on it as much but it is noteworthy. Won't do any harm for her to go to bed alone a few times!!

Got to go work.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2765510 10/16/17 11:53 AM
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following along Roist ... {{{{{hugs}}}}}
xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
bttrfly #2765518 10/16/17 01:57 PM
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Roist- I am also following along. Kudos to you on re-directing your mind to the positives.

I am just curious, have you also gone through a period where you did not initiate any reaching out/attempt connection? And if so, how did she respond?

Thinking of you.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
HaWho #2765531 10/16/17 08:36 PM
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Thanks for following and supporting me bttrfly and ha who.

Hawho, yes I have.

Pre deciding that I wanted to save my M there was a period of "well if she won't then I won't try". We slept on the edges of the bed with a no mans land between us. I hated that. Once I realised how long this could take I decided to not do that anymore. I couldn't live that way. So now I initiate contact every night. She doesn't initiate (yet !! Hehe) but she does sleep less on the edge of the bed. Contract isn't sexual but is beyond friend zone.

That is related to your wuestion but here is my answer. In the last three years there have been times where I have backed off and not initiated connection. Sooner or later W will break tis by initiating contact/connection. However it appears to me that she doesn't want things to deteriorate and when they do she does make an effort to re establish the status quo but doesn't go beyond..

Maybe LRT would be interesting to see her reaction but I am not there yet. I haven't tried everything. I am not putting myself under pressure to save my M. But I want to be able to look myself in the mirror and genuinely be able to say I tried everything before giving up.

Does that answer your question?

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2765535 10/16/17 10:35 PM
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roist - I used to refer to my W as "Mrs Minimum Payment". She would always put in the least possible effort (or so it seemed to me) on most tasks. That was one reason why I took over doing our books a number of years ago. Bills weren't getting paid down. This also extended to the garden which was full of weeds because she would only work at it for a short while then give up etc etc including in the bedroom.

Oddly - at work she would indeed go above and beyond, just not anywhere else. My son is very similar.

Think back to past patterns. Is your W someone who would regularly go above and beyond to get things done, even if they weren't for her? If that was a past pattern then it may not be surprising that she's not caring to carry her part of the load for reconnection.

It is my amateur observation that many of us are dealing with spouses who are in many ways selfish and yes, perhaps lazy. If the lawyer meetings are any indication, my STBX has gotten worse, not better.

If in your case this is what you are dealing with, you can't expect it to change I would think.

Just my 2 cents.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
AndrewP #2765537 10/16/17 11:33 PM
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Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. I will ponder on it, but I am sure that isn't the situation with my W. In our early years she was very proactive in the effort to have a good R. Now she is proactive in parenting and active in promoting the family.

She has "just" fallen out of love and probably doesn't believe that can change. She has classic signs of depression. I think she is doing the best she can.

Maybe she won't ever change, but currently she is a pale shallow version of herself. I am sure she will improve. Whether she will want to reconnect or not is another question. I am willing to give it some more time to answer that but am well aware I couldmove on before she can. Until then I will do what I can.

I am open to hearing any views on my situation and my approach even/especially those that are contrary to mine.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2765984 10/20/17 02:41 PM
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Yes Roist, that does answer my question. Thank you.

And of course, I so admire all the various different things you have tried in an effort to save your m. It's very admirable.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
HaWho #2766050 10/21/17 12:01 PM
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Thanks HAWHO. Your support means a lot.

Happy anniversaries Mrs Roist. 11 years married today, 22 years together next month and three years since I asked for a sign.that you wanted to be married. I honestly am not sure if I want to be still like this next year. OK I know I don't want to be but I meant I don't know if I will choose to be.

Best wishes everyone, including mrs Roist


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2766149 10/22/17 11:59 PM
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I am a naturally reflective person, but recently I have been reflecting more than I care to about my situation. Maybe I am approaching a crossroads with a decision to make. Idk. Or it could be the fact that I am three years into my journey though my M is in crisis for five years or so.

I am here two and a half years. I have learned a lot. I have made some friends, though many don't post anymore.

Naturally I have compared my situation to others here. Technically that serves at nothing as even two identical situations are different, due to it being two couples different. But still we have all done that.
Since being here I have followed live many different stories:
# some made progress but fell short in saving their m (to date)
# others had real rollercoaster rides going from hopeless to hopeful and back and forth before separating or piecing.
# other people came back to here because after separation the WAS finally contacted to come back.
# many have passed through D.

I think the path I followed was the right one for me. However I cannot help to think about that if we had separated three years ago, I would definitely have gotten over that by now and rebuilt a life for me. Just a thought.

Yet here I am three years later. I don't regret that time nor that choice. But I am not sure how much longer I will want to live in a half-mariage. I have expressed that before, so I guess I am cycling. I don't want an in house separation either, though if certain ground rules were respected that would probably be easier than pretending to be happy living like this.

Bottom line of a long ramble is this isn't how i want to live. I had a W free weekend last weekend and in many ways that was better than when she is here. I don't want to separate but honestly i don't find the thought of it upsetting and I can see the appeal.

I use this forum to express my WAS thinking so I can let it out, so I can concentrate on other stuff.

Thanks for reading.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2766152 10/23/17 12:22 AM
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Good morning Roist,
You've been through quite a lot, and have held steady even when you didn't want to. I'm sure this bit of cycling will come and go and you will be on the other side of it wiser and more sure of what you want than you are at the moment.

I can tell you, as someone who failed at saving her marriage -

* is there peace now? Yes. but i truly wish i could have learned these lessons a different way and kept my family intact.

* it is a major effort to make sure we all don't divorce from each other - son, exh and me. I'm sure my boy feels it even more keenly as he has no siblings, but he's also older and remembers a loving happy family life.

* you don't get over it. you learn to live with it. you learn to accept, but "getting over" - no, that isn't what happens in my experience, or in my observations

* start living the way you want to live. You never know - your wife might find that so attractive that she joins you there.

Yes, you need to let it out. keep sharing

xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
bttrfly #2766745 10/29/17 10:39 AM
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Roist,

I wish you the best. You truly have fought the good fight but only you know when it is time to end it. You have supported me in my journey and I hope I have been able to return the favor. Seeing where you are, do you wish to tell your w your current thinking, before you pull the plug?


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2766762 10/29/17 03:02 PM
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Roist, Hello old friend, I hope all is well by you. I felt the urge to look at my old posts and I saw that one of the last posts on my thread was by you on Halloween of last year. Sorry I did not respond.

I am well, living my life and enjoying my kids. My wife wants to divorce after my son graduates high school next June. Life in the house with her is not bad but there is nothing between us.

Your last post was interesting. What are you thinking?

I will check back and see if you are still active, either way, be well my friend



“Character is destiny” Heraclitus
mutatio #2767950 11/12/17 09:08 PM
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Hello mut' It is good to hear from you. I will check on your thread for an update.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2769050 11/23/17 05:28 AM
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Happy thanksgiving everyone.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2769055 11/23/17 08:49 AM
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Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
roist #2804519 08/01/18 12:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,654
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Posts: 1,654
Hi all. It's been a while since I checked in here and even longer since I posted on my thread.

This will be a short post too. I would love to report back all the big improvements in my situation but there aren't many. ..... yet!!! That being said I have seen many small signs that I wrote as mini signs of improvement. I appreciate noticing these but overall this isn't the way I want to live. Nothing new there. I will create a new thread someday and outline things better.

Other aspects of my life have seen bigger changes with more coming online shortly. That's good.

My situation continues to hold me in a cage. I have grown. I am much stronger but having a live-in MLCer and maintaining a life "together" is a restricting. I am living a fuller life than before so this isn't stopping me but sometimes I feel like I am straining to snap the chains that bind me. In many ways I feel like a WAS eager for that better life. Yet I am still here. I have distanced a lot more mostly because I don't enjoy our poor quality time together. Without interpreting my W is still here too.

Anyway just wanted to drop by and say hi. Overall I am doing OK. I read up on some of the "old" posters and noticed a lot of new ones. Best wishes to ye all


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
roist #2804579 08/01/18 03:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 875
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SBJ Offline
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Great to hear from your Roist. You and your wife are in my prayers daily. All we can do is put one foot in front of the other and keep moving. Keep up the good work...and if it can't be good then just keep working.


Me 49 W46
T25 M22
S22 D18 S13
W had EA Apr-Jul 2016
Dropped Bomb 7/9/16
ILYBINILWYA
HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17
Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
roist #2804667 08/02/18 01:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,605
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Roist

Why do you feel more trapped

I know the feeling

Glad to hear about the positive developments

Please post more when you have time


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
roist #2804699 08/02/18 11:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,654
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New thread

WAS or WHAT 11


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
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