WW in A; Broke NC promise; Dropping Rope-3rd thred

[AnotherStander]

When does hoping for a particular outcome become overwhelming to your efforts to the point that you are not truly helping yourself but just being manipulative?

Yes exactly, when DB'ing is done as manipulation the WAS sees right through it. Because even though your actions may be one thing, it's very tough to hide the feelings and emotions, especially to someone who's spent years reading you. But that's one of the reasons we say it takes time, because you've got to keep at it until it's not manipulation anymore. And I think if we're all honest here, we ALL start DBing because we're just trying to get our old M back, which is not really achievable anyway since our old M is already dust. But there's a sequence we all go through- first we DB to get the old M back, then we DB hoping to establish a new M with our spouse, then we DB because we want to make the best versions of ourselves that we can no matter what, and finally the DBing becomes a part of us to the point that we're changed and no longer DBing, it's just become our "new normal". What THAT person looks like is enormously different from the emotional wreck that arrived here to begin with. That person is strong, independent, attractive, and happy in life whether their marriage is reconciled or not. That should come as fantastic news to everyone- if you stick it out you win NO MATTER WHAT. Unfortunately when people get here they are so in shock and scared and confused that the ONLY answer they want to hear is that their old M will be restored. A lot of people here do reconcile, but the new M usually doesn't look much like the old one. And it usually takes longer to recon then most people expect.

That movie exchange is funny because it's true-- "I want her back, but to get her back I have to not care whether or not I get her back." Taken to it's logical conclusion, that seems a BIT extreme (and is why it's supposed to be funny, I suppose.)

I think DBers can probably relate to that exchange better than most people!

Can one NOT be 100% "outcome neutral" and still be an effective DB-er?

Yeah, definitely. The motivation for starting DBing may just be to restore the M, but that's OK. At first you need whatever you need to survive another day, and another. If it's hope that your old M can be restored then so be it.

[hoosjim]

So, tonight, the good: She opted, on her own initiative, to set up and attend an IC session. The bad: she retired to the guest room to do her "homework" presumably from the session, and then stayed in there for bed. The unknown: Was pretty late getting home (I didn't ask-- possible she just had to stay late because she took time for the session) and she sought me out as I was having dinner out on the patio to sit and talk and have a drink while I was eating. She didn't talk about her session. Guess we'll find out on Friday. At least i know the MC is firmly in the "if she doesn't cut off the A completely there is no point to going forward with the counselling". I allowed things to go forward until then, but unless there is something new from her trust-wise, don't think the counselling will go past that day, and I will commence going dark.

[TxHubby]

So, tonight, the good: She opted, on her own initiative, to set up and attend an IC session. The bad: she retired to the guest room to do her "homework" presumably from the session, and then stayed in there for bed. The unknown: Was pretty late getting home (I didn't ask-- possible she just had to stay late because she took time for the session) and she sought me out as I was having dinner out on the patio to sit and talk and have a drink while I was eating. She didn't talk about her session. Guess we'll find out on Friday. At least i know the MC is firmly in the "if she doesn't cut off the A completely there is no point to going forward with the counselling". I allowed things to go forward until then, but unless there is something new from her trust-wise, don't think the counselling will go past that day, and I will commence going dark.

That was her night, what was yours? You should have a GAL activity that eats up your night. Working out, doing some kind of hobby, getting out of the house, etc. Have adventures. Discover new things. Don't sit around the house worrying about what she has going on. It's nothing great, I can tell you that. Cheaters don't have exciting lives, they have seedy sleazy lives. Not what you want to spend your time focusing on. If she's doing some work then good for her. You don't worry about it and stay busy building the best version of you that you've ever been.

[Ginger1]

TX Hubby makes a very good point. ALl you post about is what W is doing, MC, IC, her contact, no contact.

HOOSJIM? Get it? Ok, that was corny. What have you been doing for yourself? Your GAL?

I will tell you, I was the worst DB'er. My ex left me for another woman when my daughter was a baby and he was a not good to me for the 9 years we had been together. I was pretty much fed up with the cr@p and I ripped him a new one constantly, which had been building up inside of me for years.

That being said. I did take a lot from DB. I evolved as a woman who looked inside, probably too much. I GAL which I had never really developed on my own. I had good friends who got distanced with life happening and we all came together again. our friendships have been very solid and the best relationships of my life. Through GAL and working on me, I am in touch with who I am. While my dating life hasn't been the best in the 9 years I have been divorced/separated, the way I handle relationships have completely evolved. I do not pursue when I am let go. I used ot have no self-esteem, I begged my ex, I tolerated awful stuff in fear of losing him. I realize now that I lost my dignity. If someone does not want to stay, they can go. Because I am comfortable with me. I have a beautiful life built with my daughter, good friends, activities that interest me, a good career, I am advancing my education......

The two guys I dated somewhat seriously did not end because of me. There were circumstances that simply were huge barriers. but I can walk away knowing I was the best me I could be. Why? Because of the work I did on myself and the life I made for myself.

So, no matter how this pans out, you need a life for yourself. You need to do YOUR work and not worry about your W and her work so much.

My ex married OW. They have been married 6 years. I am civil with both. Because I know who I am now. I am good with me.

[hoosjim]

I mostly post about my wife and what she's up to because that is by far the dynamic i understand the least well. I am way more than comfortable with what I am doing in terms of GAL, 180s, etc., so I rarely post about that-- don't see much value added in soliciting input on it and in that regard not sure I need the "Hey, great job, Hoosjim!" because i'm already really comfortable with that AND extremely comfortable in my faith and that God has my back whatever may come.

FWIW, I am an outdoorsman (and was previously, before I went into my deep slumber/coma that so damaged my MR). I hike, I camp, I canoe/kayak, I fish. I have revived my interest in and commitment to those activities. Been training for a three-day whitewater float with just my HS Senior son and myself in a canoe before he goes off to college this Fall. We are taking a float down a river that I have never successfully navigated-- last time i tried my canoe wrapped on a rock, broke in half in 55 degree water, and we had to salvage as much of our stuff as we could and hike our way out (the only public access to the river is at either end of the three day float and there is no cell coverage). IOW, high adventure. I have been working out almost daily, somewhat to prep for that but mostly just because I like being fit and had let inertia, malaise, and minor injuries set in and take me away from that over the years. I am currently in the best shape I have been in since probably before I met my wife at age 26, and I no longer fear seeing myself in the mirror or taking my shirt off at the pool/beach (even though I am 51). God has richly blessed me, I think, with the ability to navigate this fitness regimen despite some limitations (my age, obviously, but also a spinal fusion in my neck that limits my range of motion a bit). I have been meeting people at the gym (I typically go early in the morning, before W is out of house, which was a BIG 180 for me) and out at a couple of the local watering holes that I now frequent on a fairly regular basis. Reconnected with some old friends, the best of which I visit prolly about once a month just to go out, relax, meet folks (he is becoming a "fixture" in his new hometown which is a smaller rural town an hour south of me) and talk about our respective WWs (who are also best friends), but... mostly we chat and socialize, hobnob and (sometimes) dance and flirt (but just a very little bit-- we ARE both still married) with the local ladies. I have also resurrected my interest in music, taking my saxaphone out of mothballs and tuning it-- my plan is to start in getting used to playing it again this week. A couple of new things I want to take up and am in the process of scouting out-- swing dancing and horseback riding. The former because I have never been a great dancer but have always wanted to be better, and the latter because I aim to someday have some land and would want to be able to keep a horse or two. (I grew up in the country on a farm and rode a wee bit as a boy, so I am not completely unfamiliar with the animals.) Is that enough?

[Coconut]

I think the biggest issue your having/will have is that your still trying to work on the M. Your going to MC while she's actively in an A, and your basically labeling yourself as plan B.

Don't think of it as go NC or I'm done with this M. It should be more the mindset of you are in an A, I'm done with this M. Maybe in the distant future, if she ends with OM, and doesn't get another, you MAY consider getting back together, but for now I'm done and just worrying about me. (read TXHubby's recent thread on staying M)

The problem with trying to work on the M while she is in the A is that there will never be any real closure. You will likely resent that she didn't suffer any consequences if you get back together (you where there for her as soon as OM was gone), and neither of you will look back on your willingness to just take her right back and find much self respect in that.

I wish you the best, I just think you need to distance yourself from her for a while, the longer the better, whether she ends it with OM or not.

[AnotherStander]

Hey, I've done that before too, wrapped a canoe around a rock in the middle of a class 3 drop I mostly kayak now and I LOVE it!

Your GAL stuff sounds really good, and it helps us to know you're not hyper-focused on your W.

So, tonight, the good: She opted, on her own initiative, to set up and attend an IC session. The bad: she retired to the guest room to do her "homework" presumably from the session, and then stayed in there for bed.

I'm not sure that's "bad" so much as "inevitable". Hey, at least she didn't try to kick you out of the MBR. She's trying to create more space, let her have it.

[hoosjim]

I think the biggest issue your having/will have is that your still trying to work on the M. Your going to MC while she's actively in an A, and your basically labeling yourself as plan B.

That very well COULD be my biggest issue, but, thankfully, the MC recognizes it as well, which is what this week is all about. I've allowed a little space, here, but W knows that "I am not going to be a the sucker in this relationship" and, specifically, that I am not going to "share her" or carry on as a married couple (or indeed any kind of "couple" as long as the A continues.

The other overlay is that it is not certain WON the "A" continues. Fortunately, at this point, i don't feel like I need to be too concerned with that because the burden of proof is now on her to show ME that it is not. She has til Friday. Until then, I am already playing it cool and continuing as I had been with my own life.

[sandi2]

Anyway, MC says you can tell by the way my W keeps bringing up our past as kind of justification is a big tip off she may not be ready to make that commitment

If the MC understands the mindset of a wayward, then she knows that bringing up the past is all the wayward has to fall back on, as a means to justify their behavior. And, just as you will have to forgive your WW for her betrayal, she will have to forgive you for the past. Otherwise, the R will not heal and be what either of you want.

MC says W is "sorry she hurt you" but not sure W has really indicated the sentiment that she realizes what she did was wrong in and of itself.

Unless a W had a revenge affair, I don't believe her intent is to see how to hurt her H. Although she is resentful for things in the past, her motivation for the A is purely self centered. The A is all about what she gets from it. It's about how she feels, not about how it affects her H.

MC says W is "sorry she hurt you" but not sure W has really indicated the sentiment that she realizes what she did was wrong in and of itself.

By admitting she did wrong, she has to face what she does not want to face. For me, it was stubborn pride that held me back. The WW has been known to even bargain with the H to pick up where their MR left off before the A.........but she does not want to face the fallout of her own works of destruction. Blaming her H has been what worked for her! If she can't blame him, then she has to accept complete responsibility for the destruction her behavior has caused. She is very resistant to own responsibility, look at the magnitude of hurt she has caused, and deal with the consequences.

MC does think even if MC does not go forward that we can still try to find time here and there to "bounce out" and go have drinks or something to try to reconnect some, but I am not juiced about doing that and think that is where here advice falls apart a bit.

I agree with you. IMHO, if she continues contact with OM, then going out for drinks to reconnect could only, at best, give some sense of a false friendship.

I can relate to the place your W finds herself. However, instead of my H and a MC trying to get me to commit, I had mentors from the DB board.

She also admitted that a big part of her DIDNT want to do it. Finally, she is very clearly still in an infatuation stage with the OM. Made very clear to me that there is no "spark" between us and she cant see there ever being one or any romance

My "want to" was definitely not on board with ending my A and committing to my M. Her feelings will not change as long as she is pining for the OM/A. Also, she has operated out of emotions and has depended on them to guide her decisions. So, when her emotions are not on board, she feels as if she would sacrifice her only chance at happiness and "true love" by staying in, what she believes, a loveless MR. Perhaps that it difficult for the LBS to really "get", since they are in love with the wayward spouse. You have to see it as if you were being pressured to live out your remaining days with someone you did not love.......and maybe not even like too much.

Finally, she is very clearly still in an infatuation stage with the OM

For me, I began seeing a few tiny cracks in my knight's armor. At first, I ignored that little voice in my head, b/c I wanted the fantasy. Having my mentors relating the information I needed, helped me to see even more cracks. Fantasies are created in the mind, and they have to be fed in order to get the "high". Reality has a way of causing the fantasy to crumble.

SHe says "my whole life i've done what I've supposed to

Yep, my song & dance, too.

She also wants to know "how I know" these things, which I still haven't divulged saying "does it really matter? "

Never tell her. She wants to know so that she can be sure to stop that source or leak, and she can continue her indiscretions. The trap is when you are leading the example of being "open" with her, and you reveal your sources of intell. Big mistake! Even when you reconcile, do not tell her. You may not think it matters, but to a woman......it matters! Once she knows, she'll hold it over your head forever. If she starts "guessing" how you know.........do not answer yes or no. It's a trap many H's fall into, thinking he will clear the air.

To me, this all seemed good, as in she's noticing and maybe getting interested, but then, of course, she manages to work into the convo that she "doesn't feel about me the way she should if we were to be a romantic/married couple. In particular, it doesn't bother her to think of me meeting someone else or even sleeping with someone else-- in fact she's be okay with it." Hmmm...

It's amazing how the WW is always quick to remind her H that she couldn't possibly have romantic feelings for him. As if it never dawns on her that it just might be that he doesn't have those feelings for her! And that part about you sleeping with someone else being okay? I doubt it. Here's the thing. She might be able to deal with you having casual sex with another woman. It might even help take her off the hot seat if you had an affair. What she isn't prepared for is another woman replacing her position in your life
.

[hoosjim]

Okay, damn it, so something's come up which I was hoping I wouldn't have to deal with. I stop snooping and Gathering Intel on her over 2 weeks ago. One of the last things I found out, though, was that there was something coming up that she was going to meet her BFF 4 on the 27th, which is today, and which seemed to likely involve the other man. I am assuming that is probably something to do with his birthday since I know that it is this week, remember that we were friends for two years, that I can't remember the exact day. At any rate, she had mentioned any plans to go out today, so I thought maybe she was really trying to be good and put this in the rearview mirror. So just now she calls me and casually mentions that she might meet BFF after work and maybe have a couple of drinks and maybe go to a movie. Or maybe she would just let BFF go to movie after drinks and she would just stay at the bar. By herself. I am pretty sure I know what this is about, although I can't honestly say that I am certain. I do know for a fact that BFF has been a cover for her to meet up with om several times in the past. And that BFF has been a liaison in the past. We are technically any place for she is supposed to be no contacting. We are also in a place where she knows I know the BFF was at least complicit. In the past. We have not fully discussed that angle other than the difficulties she would face in Breaking that friendship. We also have the marriage counseling coming up on Friday where we were supposed to address and resolve the issue of whether or not she is fully committed to regaining my trust and how.

My instinct is to tell her I think she shouldn't go tonight. Maybe even tell her not to go or we're done. Based largely on the fact that I just don't know that I can trust her in BFF together in a situation like that. Particularly with the marriage counseling coming up on Friday. And the fact that she hasn't yet done anything concrete to show me she wants back in my trust. Of course I have some Intel on her that she might be up to something tonight, but I wasn't necessarily going to mention that to her. Or maybe that I should, just obliquely, as in look, I have known for a while you guys were planning something tonight. She already knows that somehow I had been monitoring her she just doesn't know how.

On the other hand, I could just let her go, say nothing, assume the worst, and just go completely freaking dark and cancel the marriage counseling on Friday. Of course that does a sushi is up to no good which I am not 100% certain of comma although my instincts are saying that's what she's doing in my instincts have been pretty good here. Or I could let her go, follow them, and confront the other man, which I have been aching to do so I can put my fist in his rotten nose if I caught him actually with my wife. Okay, maybe I shouldn't do that last one.

Anyone have any input on this? My plan is it stands is just to confront her about it and say look I don't think you should go. Are you committed to regaining my trust or not?