Thank you everyone for your wonderful words of support.
Ginger, those why questions are stingers, aren't they? They do help me get to the center of the matter. When I think about "why" I want or need to change things, part of the reason is what I am doing isn't working and two, I feel like he needs to experience how divorced life will be like.
The real battle in all of this for me right now isn't H; it's the fact that I will be losing S 50% of the time. Let's face it, H is not behaving like a mate I would like to be with for the rest of my life.
I fought so hard to bring S into this world. I wanted him so badly. I am so happy to have him in my life. I love him so much. I read a quote somewhere that said that becoming a mother reaches places in your heart you never knew existed (or something like that). And it is so true for me. I never knew feelings like this before.
I feel like S is being taken away from me. The situation is so unjust. Almost like a cruel joke.
H spewed via text this afternoon. More justification. He wrote that I never apologized or owned up to my mistakes. Never. There are those absolutes again. I will agree that I should have apologized more frequently than I did. I should have stepped up more often than I did. I will own that. Absolutely. I regret not doing a better job of it. I see now where I have made mistakes and allowed my pride and my fear and my past issues with my mother to guide my actions.
I can't change any of what I have done. But H is still there. I have apologized to him for that. More than once. Somewhere in here, I have read to apologize and move on. Don't keep apologizing. So I won't.
I do feel incredible guilt and shame on that issue. He is right in the sense I should have owned my stuff more quickly, more readily, and been more apologetic. I feel awful about it. I am trying not to beat myself up over it.
I think a lot of my doubt about what he says stems from my guilt over what I could have done better. He sounds so certain of himself; he sounds like he has got his stuff together and like he knows exactly what he wants and where he is heading. But I have read that simply is not the case. I have read that it is all a carefully crafted facade MLCers build for themselves.
I want to believe that ^^. It makes sense. But I have doubt though. Doubt that stems from my guilt and from willingly taking on too much responsibility for what has gone wrong. This is a childhood issue stemming from my father blaming me for my mother's bi-polar/borderline rages (e.g., "you know that makes your mother angry, so don't do it . . . if you would only behave, then your mother wouldn't act this way.) So I blame myself for the state of my marriage. If only I hadn't acted this way or that way. I feel so much guilt. That guilt turns into self doubt. So much doubt that I have trouble accepting what others tell me and what others see about what is going on.
I still have a lot of work to do. But I have uncovered all of this ^^ during therapy and reading and researching. It's a good start, right?
I also have a better idea what triggers me to become angry and defensive. Whenever I feel like I am being treated unjustly or poorly, or being accused of something that I didn't do, I trigger. (All from how my mother would fly into rages and beat me over trivial things; now as an adult, when I start to feel or think I see this kind of treatment coming, it's all bad for the perpetrator.)
I can't change H. I can't make him love me. I can't help him deal with his issues. I can't make him admit his mistakes. This is all his work.
I still have a lot of work to ahead of me. But despite being served, I am trying to stay optimistic about me and my life.
Fight I'm sorry that you are going through this. I hope that you and S are safe in the home. If he is still living there it is probably best that you don't discuss the divorce or relationship with him at all and try to de-escalate the situation as much as possible.
These are his choices. Please don't beat yourself up but i'm glad you are coming to terms with why you put up with him (I still haven't figured that out in my own situation).
Your S will be fine and the time you can focus on you and healing will make you that much stronger and present when you come back to him. Keep in mind that just because he may get 50% custody, does not mean that he will exercise it. Your S is younger, but my kids said upon learning about the OW1 and my H telling them he was leaving me, "at least there won't be a custody battle." They knew their father was very disconneccted from them.
I bet the more you can make him believe that you are ok with him having S, the less he will fight you on it. It seems to me like he really enjoys pushing your buttons in a very sadistic way. Walking around behind you criticizing everything you do is much different than actually having to parent a young child on his own. And that time will take away from the swinging bachelor life he is probably imaging for himself.
To answer your question about the exposure, you need to use it for when it's the most beneficial for you, as Job wrote you can use it as a negotiating tool to get something or I will add as something to create a small wake up call. It depends of each situation.
You cannot expose without proof, so copy anything you can and create a timeline of it. Do you have letters from her to him? What's inside? Does she write about her current boyfriend? Do they meet? Did he promise her to live together? basically who is the one who is the pursuer is their relationship? Who has the most to lose if some facts come to light? Is she really into him or just being flattered to be pursued by someone? some women just like the attention? May be right now, it's in your best interest to just keep monitoring their interactions, you don't want to expose your sources too soon. If he moves out, she will have to make a choice, staying with her current boyfriend or with your husband, decisions will have to be made, talking is something, doing is something else (fantasy versus reality). If she decides not to move with him, he will then be hit with reality. Even in the event she moves with him, do you think her lifestyle/personality will be easy with how your husband like to live his daily life.
His spewing is a way to provoke you so you can get into another fight/argument just to confirm/justify his decision to file for divorce. Don't fall for it! Detach! Ignore them but keep/archive them, just to show how irrational and aggressive he can be in case you need to prove how unstable he is. In return, be very careful about what you write to him. Stay always "very professional".
Don't stop him to be with his son, keep him updated about what you will be doing with him, now it's up to him to join you or not, by doing that you leave him the choice, but keep your activities (GAL) private. My husband reconnected with his kids well before he did with me. If he sees what a great/dignified mom you are/were, it's something he will be very thankful for, if one day he comes out of his twisted world. The high road is never something lost down the road.
Being detached doesn't mean being cold so just treat him as a "nice neighbor", polite but no more. When you make coffee, offer him a cup or whatever you know he might appreciate (small gestures only), and keep track how he reacts, he might say no one day (don't be offended, just move one), he might say yes the other (also don't try to engage in any R, just move on).
Give him space.
Stay away from any negative circles that for your best interest.
Remember it's impossible to make him change his mind with any conversations, his mind is totally irrational right now and he sees you as the enemy, because if he feels that way it has to be because of someone, so don't give him the "treat" to validate those thoughts. Let him figure things out without you in the middle the least possible.
I totally understand your pain regarding son and Mlcer
Some Mlcers see the kids less and less as time goes on maybe yours will also
my X h had all these custody rights put in D agreement the he wound up leaving the state and hasn't seen kids since-so you never know what will happen and of course its best if possible that son keep a R with his dad as long s he is safe hang in
I completely understand your pain. My ex left when our daughter was 6 months old. He left the night the bomb was dropped. Since he had a plan to go live with his sister THAT NIGHT, I instead for 2 months went to live with my dad and stepmom. My ex never looked back, was fully involved with OW and they have been married for 6 years now and that woman is my daughters stepmom.
For year I struggled with that part. Not my ex so much, but the time taken away from me and my D. The splitting of the holidays from the very beginning. I hated them both for that. We did IVF, she was sort of our miracle baby, then I had to split my time? I am luck in the fact he did not want 50/50. I also told him over my dead body:) (I was an awful DB'er).
My point being, everyone makes mistakes in our marriages. I beat myself up the way you are. I own my part only. My ex was not good to me since the day I met him, but I always put him on a pedestal. My mistake? I finally couldn't take the abuse. Hormones during IVF finally had me needing him to be decent to me and put me somewhere on his list at the top which I never was. When he didn't I became b!tchy. I became defensive, with self protection, because I always knew what was coming. I mentally prepared myself.
I realize, after 9 years on these boards, there is no strategy, there is no really changing game plans to get them back. As long as your original plan was to simply be the best you that you can be and that makes you happy with who you are. And what is meant to follow after that is what will follow. It takes two to save an M but only one to be who you want to be.
Fast forward to 9 years later. I have had so much growth and I am happy with the person I am. I was always afraid to look in, but I no longer am. I take it overboard sometimes beating myself up. I am civil with my ex and his OWW. All I care about is my daughter is happy and healthy.
I do hope for you that perhaps your ex decides to make changes for himself and for his family. But right now, you protect yourself legally, and just be true to yourself.
Thank you Ginger,Peace, Skyhigh and OwniIt - what would I do without your steady advice?
Ginger - your sitch is somewhat similar to mine. My S is my miracle baby. Conceived on our 4th IVF cycle with an egg donor. All the while H was cheating.
Since being served I have asked him to move out. He refuses. He claims that he is concerned that I would use the fact that he moved out against him in some way. He obviously isn't being counseled very well or that is a bunch of bologna. In our jurisdiction - who lives where doesn't impact a single thing except the issue of custody if the parties live far apart. I am considering offering to sign something saying I won't use it against him (I have never even thought of doing that - I just want him away.)
The courts split custody time 50-50, right down the middle. For example a typical schedule is Monday & Tuesday (2 days) w/mom, Wednesday & Thursday (2 days) w/dad, 3 days (Fri, Sat. & Sun.)w/mom; then the exact opposite the following week.
How nuts is that? All that bouncing around. I just can't see how that is in the best interest of the child not to have one solid homebase, but I know I am supremely biased on the issue.
The PA behaviors are in full force and effect. H is a very angry man.
Yesterday was S's birthday. I celebrated the occasion on Friday with my parents. I bought a cake from my favorite bakery. It turned out not to be that good. On Saturday night while outside with H, S was picking out parts of it saying he didn't like it. I told S that I didn't like those parts either and apologized for selecting that cake.
Can you see where this is going?
Yesterday, H brings home a different cake from that bakery. A cake he has purchased for me in the past. The funny part is he asked S if he wanted to have some birthday cake for dessert and S said no. H tried again 10 minutes later and S adamantly told H "I don't want any birthday cake!"
At this point, I find it so much easier to drop the rope. I could care less about H and what he is/isn't doing. You want a divorce? You got it.
I would really like it if he would move out to give me some space. Prior to being served, I remained optimistic and viewed most of our encounters as opportunities to improve our relations. But now, I just want to get as far away from him as possible. Is the attitude change steeped in bittnerness? Perhaps. But perhaps this is what I need to feel in order to endure.
Another way to look at it is dropping the rope and improvements in my shouldering too much responsibility for the well being of the relationship.
What I do know is I do not want to entertain any more discussions about the relationship. Like none. We haven't had many since BD and since being served it was only that night that we talked about the relationship. But should he bring it up, I need to find a way to politely refuse to have the conversation. It is a trigger for me, the discussions go nowhere, and only serve to fuel his justifications. Something I am absolutely unwilling to do.
Besides, at this point, what good does it do me? I am not being heard; he is not listening, not validating, and only criticizing, demeaning, deflecting, and denying. From now on, if he wants to do something, but it doesn't serve my needs or goals, then I won't agree to it. "That doesn't work for me" is going to be my new mantra.
I'm not confident he will ever wake up out of this. I cannot see him ever wavering; even just a little. He is so entrenched in his beliefs and finds it so easy to point the finger at me, while only taking responsibility in a way that paints him as a martyr. It is difficult to imagine how anyone this far deep can find their way through.
At times I am sad, others times I am mad, and sometimes even indifferent. Sleep sometimes eludes me and when I am able to sleep, it is often in short spurts. I went thought this at BD and felt better over time so I am confident I can muddle through this.
More than just mourning the loss of the marriage, the relationship that I thought I had, and the person I believed H to be, I am heartbroken over the impact this will have on S. I am mourning the loss of the future I envisioned with him.
I felt like I moved heaven and earth to bring him into the world, I wanted him so badly and he is now here; only to be taken from me. It is a cruel twist of fate. So very cruel. I know H has his reasons and in his mind they are valid, reasonable, and logical. He can have them. God knows I just want my son.
So to end my overly long post, I pose a question - how can I politely refuse to engage H in any relationship issue discussions should they come up. I would like to do it gracefully, but firmly.
You can change the topic of conversation in a polite manner. Just walking away would be rude or you could say "h, I'd rather not discuss this topic at the moment" and then walk away.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I did speak with the lawyer, months ago about trying to force H out of the house. The only way that happens in my jurisdiction is if there is physical abuse. (Emotional abuse doesn't count as "abuse." It is too difficult to define.) H wants to stay, for whatever reason (money?), so there is nothing I can do. My only option is to stay or to leave.
Since he won't leave, I beginning to make plans to leave. I can no longer live under the same roof with this man. It has become too toxic. I had a session with my therapist yesterday and he said when a person tries to have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy person the unhealthy person acts like a steamroller and the other person is like a twig.
At one point during all of this I believed that one person can change the relationship. I've read about here, in books, articles, etc., but I am finding it is much harder in real life than on paper. My H is in la la land and resolutely refuses to enter reality or the present. It is a fight I don't think I can win. I believe I am a strong woman with a lot of fortitude and I also believe I have enough sense to know when enough is enough.
So now I have to direct my resources elsewhere. I tried. God knows I did.
My interactions with H have been very brief. I am polite, but very brief, practically a mute. I said very little before being served and am saying remarkably less to him now. It comes surprisingly easy.
In my head I picture my relationships like a house with a yard. Some people I let into my house; some people can come into the yard, but not into the house; and others have to remain on the curb. Right now, H has to stay in the street. From my vantage point I can safely watch him, acknowledge him, and make sure he doesn't hurt me my storming my castle. This is the way it has to be for me. This can change, but right now, I need him out in the street (preferably literally and figuratively). Since I cannot put him out of the house literally, I can do it in my head.
For those of you in the U.S. - hope your Holiday was fun!
As for me, I have been doing a lot of thinking lately. I went out to dinner with my parents and my S on Saturday. While waiting for the food my S became fussy so my dad took him for a walk. I took the opportunity to talk with my mom. I asked her about whether she has told her friends about my impending divorce. She looked at me like I was crazy and she said "No. With a gay daughter and now a divorced daughter, are you kidding me? What will people think? They will think we have a crazy mixed up family." I didn't respond and changed the topic. **sigh**
I have been mulling this interaction over in my head. This is my mother in all her classic glory. My reaction has been one of hurt, shame, and disappointment. But why? Why do I care whether she tells anyone? What difference does it make? None. It doesn't change a single thing.
So where is the hurt, shame, and disappointment coming from? Is it coming from her? Am I picking up on her feelings (projection) and dealing with them? I feel like there is some of that in those feelings. But there is something more. What else?
I feel ashamed, hurt, and disappointed that I have let her down? Yes. Upset that things haven't worked out for me and H? Yes, there is some of that in there too. The old, I am responsible for HER feelings. This definitely goes back to childhood and my father always reminding me that if I didn't do this or that, then my mother wouldn't act badly (and therefore my mother's feelings and behavior were MY fault).
Am I making sense to anyone?
I need to find a way to step away from those feelings. I don't need them. They are not mine. I am not responsible for how she feels and how she behaves. Easier said than done for sure! If anyone has any suggestions or feedback on how to do this or anything I have written, I am all ears, please share your thoughts.
The problem I have with all of this is that I feel like because I am a part of the situation that is causing my mother distress, then I am responsible for causing her to feel the way she does.
I am at a loss as to how to sort all of this out.
On the MLC front - things between H and I are deteriorating from a communication standpoint. There is none. No greetings (except see you later). No good mornings, no hello, how are you, etc. All the normal pleasantries one might expect from someone are gone. No questions. Nothing. I am mirroring that behavior. In other words, I won't initiate.
I have come to expect it. I still feel sad about it. But that is on him right? This is his choice? I can't make him open up; he has to want to do that. If I greet him, ask questions, etc., then I am just pursuing/chasing him. Is that right?
What is frustrating is I feel like he either doesn't care, doesn't notice, or prefers this?
Even though my relationship with H isn't going in a direction I like; somehow through it all I feel like I am actually getting somewhere?
Am I? Can I get some feedback please? Validation if I am on the right track? A 2x4 if I am not so I can reevaluate.
Hey, FightOn! If you look up REBT therapy, the ideas might help with your mom. You're on the right track...you are not responsible for anothers reaction or feelings. They are not responsible for yours, either. We need to own that. We just have to understand that dynamic and do our best to catch ourselves when we worry about our effect on others or start to react to some behavior of theirs that we might not like. Research it...it is very helpful!
As far as MLCer, I have some thoughts and questions.
"On the MLC front - things between H and I are deteriorating from a communication standpoint. There is none. No greetings (except see you later). No good mornings, no hello, how are you, etc. All the normal pleasantries one might expect from someone are gone. No questions. Nothing. I am mirroring that behavior. In other words, I won't initiate."
So, from my understanding, to "not initiate" is to not START contact. No texting, no calls, no random dropping by to say "hi". If you are forced into contact (kid exchange, L visits, etc) it is suggested that we are "light and breezy" or even friendly. Eye contact, smiles, pleasant and contented attitude...let them wonder why you're happy. That's not pursuing...that's LIVING, or at least acting "as if". To smile and say "hello" is simply polite, especially if you immediately go about your business or work on the task at hand.
"If I greet him, ask questions, etc., then I am just pursuing/chasing him. Is that right?"
Partially. If you smile and say "hello" or "good day" to a stranger you pass while walking in a park, are you pursuing? NO. You ARE BEING POLITE. They most likely will return the greeting and you both will have a warm feeling about the exchange...as you go on your way. They, and you, will see the exchange in a positive light and feel good about it. Other than that, it is meaningless. Not pursuing. If you run into a neighbor, workmate, or old classmate that you have no feelings for, on the other hand, and you see each other and recognize each other but you ignore them...will you feel good about the lack of exchange? Probably not. Its considered socially rude to not acknowledge someone you know, even if you are "mirroring" their behavior. Now, you have no control over their actions, but you do have control over yours. When in doubt, for the sake of civility, take the higher ground. Smile and say "hi" just to acknowledge them. That's why we are told to treat our NC partner in "forced contact situations" like a neighbor. You want them to see you happy or at least content regardless of their actions, unaffected by THEIR behavior. And if a comment is made, acknowledge it. If it is a compliment, thank them. If it is a complaint, validate (I'm sorry you feel that way). If they continue, its in your control. I've chosen to listen...my choice and I own that.
"I have come to expect it. I still feel sad about it. But that is on him right? This is his choice? I can't make him open up; he has to want to do that."
You feeling sad about it is actually on you, not him. He is responsible for his behavior; you are responsible for your response to that behavior. Part of that response is how you feel. What part are you sad about? How can you change that feeling? Think hard about the parts to that feeling, where it is actually coming from. Its not from him; its something coming from you. What are you saying to yourself about his behavior that makes you sad?
Also,
"I can't make him open up; he has to want to do that."
You're right. But you can carry yourself in such a way that he might eventually want to possibly do just that. Would you "open up" to someone who seemed angry, sad, and just as unhappy with life as you are in your head? That could hardly bother to speak to you while in your presence? You had a relationship. It was there, but was altered. Be pleasant...it draws people to you. Be consistant..it builds trust (over time). Give him space (that's the NC and not pursuing)...it shows respect for his needs right now. Be confident...it builds trust as well as makes you seem more stable. Be the Lighthouse...you're showing him where the safe passage home lies. Be patient ...go live your life and let him work his problems out on his own. And be calm...for your sake and his.
M-51 H-54 2D-27 and 25 M-26 yrs Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15 He moved out 10-3-15 D filed 1-27-16 D final 10-27-16
You are right that my feelings of sadness are on me!!! I see it!!! My feelings of sadness are tied into my expectations and my impatience.
I think I am taking my concern about pursuing behavior to the extreme. I need to be pleasant. Not just for me, for S and to be the Lighthouse.
When I confront my feelings about greeting H and how I treat him I do feel some resentment. Like I am making things "easy" for him and he gets to escape "justice." But I need to remember that he is in crisis and that although things may appear okay on the outside, they are not. My feelings are tied up in my hope for a confirmation that my perception of what is happening is right.
I got a lot of 2x4s when I was letting my W's mood swings control how I was feeling and what I was doing. My mantra was to just be steady and confidently me no matter what she was doing. This was hard but it relieved me of the panic preceding interactions. It calmed my soul and made life more enjoyable...at least for me.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Thank you for that bit of advice Gordie. It is helpful.
I recently finished a book that I found very helpful. Very helpful. What I enjoyed about this book was the fact that it explained the psychology behind the things H and I were/are doing. It isn't just a how to handle the situation; it contained answers to the question of why the situation was happening.
As hard as it was to read some of the things, it was hugely helpful. I don't know why, but I find that if I can understand "why," the "what do I do about it" becomes much much easier to understand and to follow through. (I am certainly not saying it is all very simple, because it's not.)
I find myself having so much regret over how I handled things with H. Regret, remorse, and sorrow. I am so very sorry for the way I handled things. I wish I knew then, what I know now. How things could have been different.
I have to accept that we are where we are and there is nothing I can do about it. I can only move forward and strive to be better. It is too late to save our marriage and I hate that I co-piloted it into the ditch.
One of the things I very clearly understand now is why H blames the marriage. In a way, I did it too by blaming him for our relational problems. The way I saw it is this: I wasn't having any of these type of relational problems with anyone else in my life. Only him. So I assumed it was all him. I took myself out of the equation. Perhaps he is doing that too?
He has said otherwise. He verbally has said he is responsible for doing things that were detrimental to the relationship. However, he has never elaborated and when pressed, changes the subject or tries to start a fight about something else. I never seem to get to the bottom of it. It is such a shallow admission of responsibility that I cannot accept it was being sincere. For whatever reason, he just cannot go there.
Over the weekend we had a disagreement about some yard work. On Saturday, out of the blue, he tells me that some tree trimmers would be coming by on Sunday to trim a bunch of trees. This is the first I have heard about it. I asked him why he didn't tell me about it sooner. He said he did. First he said he brought it up last week, then said, oh I told you two weeks ago. Um, no. Then he said, well, I'm paying for it so what difference does it make. He completely missed the point. So I dropped it. What's the use.
Well, the issue was stuck in my craw. So I brought it up, but I think in a nice way. I asked him what he understood my issue to be with the tree trimming. He said it was two things, the first being the money, and the second being whether it needed to be done.
Ugh! He actually asked me if this was correct and I said not exactly. I told him it was the lack of communication. I was disappointed that he had made plans to do this to the house, our house, and I wasn't part of the conversation. It had nothing to do with the money, it had nothing to do with whether I thought it needed to be done. It was the fact that he made a unilateral decision to do something to the house and I didn't find out about it until the day before. There was no discussion. No inclusion. No talk of "hey, I think this needs to be done so I'm going to do pay for it and have it done."
I'm not sure if he really understood.
I wanted to add why it bothered me, but that is probably too much "relationship" type discussion for us. And I don't feel comfortable getting that vulernable with him. He isn't safe, I don't trust him.
But maybe I can tell all of you to get it off my chest. I was upset because I felt left out. Which is really a glimpse into how I feel about his emotional life. I feel left out. He has had all these thoughts and feelings that I have no clue about.
Looking back with what I now know, I can see that not understanding his feelings and emotions caused me to interpret his actions in a negative way. My stuff, my issues, interpreted his actions.
I have never been sure I have known what he was feeling or thinking. And sometimes when I would press I would get answers that seemed incongruent with his actions. I have really felt that either he doesn't know what he feels or he is covering them up.
I'm a little puzzled by the tree incident. Who normally handled the yard, yard work and hiring outside contractors. I would have been delighted if mine had gotten off his butt and actually done something.
Maybe I have this wrong, but I think that what bothered you is that you had no control over this situation. That he did it unilaterally without discussion (read your approval).
I think you may still have some serious control issues when it comes to him. That said, I don't believe for a moment that you were a co-pilot in sending the marriage into a ditch. Not unless you mean by your decision to marry him.
I did everything for my H. Everything. I gained weight. He hated it. Said by doing that I forced him to cheat on me and I abandoned him. Do I believe I did things wrong in the marriage? Absolutely. Do I believe I was the co-pilot? Nope. We would have ended up in the same situation regardless of my weight. I have zero doubts on that point. Perhaps it would have happened sooner, perhaps it would have gone down a little nicer, I don't know. But it would have happened.
Keep working on detaching. Own your side of the street but don't take the blame for his.
Normally, H handled coordinating yard work. But I would always be included in the discussion. A simple, "hey, I'm gonna do this on this day" is just plain courteous.
What ruffles my feathers even more is when the workers arrived on Sunday, they blocked my car in the garage. He moved his car, but didn't bother to tell me they had arrived or that they would be parking their truck on our driveway. I had no idea until I went to leave the house. I opened our garage door and there was a huge truck backed onto our driveway. And H had moved HIS car. I had no idea the workers had arrived until after an hour after they got to the house. (I was wholed up in a room with S, who is sick, BTW.)
All I want is to be informed on what is happening in and around our home. I didn't mind the work and don't quarrel with the fact that it had to be done.
I think I am asking too much of a MLC'er. I just realized this. I don't know why I didn't keep it in mind before. I look at H, talk with him, and at times he seems so together and normal, and I get wrapped up in my own feelings, I forget about the MLC mindset.
Fight, that is easy to do. Somehow many parts of their lives seem to function normally so you look at them and forget all of it. I fall into the same trap with my own H all the time. It goes like this.
1. I convey some information about the kids (or some other matter) that makes him feel guilt and shame (without meaning to do so.).
2. He monsters and rages and brings up divorce and personal attacks.
3. I get upset and convince myself this is the time.
4. He realizes he has gone too far and communicates again without an apology.
So I finished another wonderfully helpful book. This book has a similar title to the last book I read. In it there are some seemingly helpful exercises that I am going to try. As I read the exercises, I did some of them in my mind and could see right away how they could be really helpful in my healing.
One of the reasons these two books have helped me so much is their exploration of the psychology behind the dynamics in my marriage. Armed with this knowledge, I can more easily pinpoint my issues and know what I can do about them. This knowledge has boosted my confidence and self esteem. Along with that, I am able to see more clearly the emotional turmoil my H must be facing. In turn, this allows me to unload some of the responsibility for what has happened. I have too easily and too readily accepted responsibility for the whole of the relationship. I have too readily believed his perception of me and my contribution.
One unfortunate downside is I have a firm grasp on how much work is involved in untangling the emotions lurking in our psyches. I am willing to embrace this work and already feel I have accomplished a lot. On the other hand, what I have suspected all along, is that H can't do it right now. Whether he ever will remains to be seen. I am not hopeful and have not been for some time. As I have struggled to unpack my issues and face them, I have become increasingly aware of the strength needed to do this. When I look at H, all I see is him running away.
I have been reading others threads a lot lately. What I have found so helpful is understanding what happens in the relationship as the LBS turns their back on the MLC'er. It seems the MLC'er starts to notice and reacts negatively trying to draw the LBS back. This has been helpful because I think I see H bucking, resisting, and trying to provoke me.
Could some of you chime and let me know what you think of this . . .
So H works in a dangerous profession. Early in our marriage (approx. 10 years ago) we had a scare and I received a call in the middle of the night that something happened to H at work (not life threatening). I was taken to the hospital and H underwent surgery. Ever since then, I have stressed to H the importance of calling me to let me know if he will be late so I don't worry. Prior to the incident it was a source of tension because oftentimes, H would not bother. Afterwards, he got better and 95% of the time he would call or text me.
Fast forward to last night. He was 1 1/2 hours late. No call, no text, nothing. H knows this bothers me.
I didn't say a word about it. I did not ask him any questions. When he came home, I cheerfully greeted him like I normally would. This morning, I said nothing.
I refuse to be goaded into a fight so he can justify his bad behavior. I won't do it. Nope.
If he wants to be irresponsible and mean, then that is on him. That behavior has nothing to do with me. I may be indirectly affected by it, but he is not doing this because of me. He is doing this for some other reason. Admittedly, it does bother me. It hurts my feelings that he could treat me with such disrespect. I feel like my needs aren't important and don't mean anything to him. This is exactly how my parents treated me. What I wanted or needed didn't seem to matter. They just couldn't be bothered.
So I suspect that this acting out behavior is consistent with what happens. The MLC'er pokes, prods, and tries to provoke to see what happens. Do I understand this correctly?
If so, what happens next? What should I expect from him next? More of this type of behavior?
When it doesn't work the way they expect it to, what do they do next?
Something has come up with H that I need to talk about.
To put this in context, I do have to tell you all a bit more about H. He is a police officer. A fellow officer was murdered in the line of duty earlier this year. The colleague was not someone he really knew. H never talked about him, never socialized with him, never worked the same shift as he did, and from what I knew, had very little interaction with him.
When the colleague was killed, H showed very little emotion. He refused to talk with the psychologists that his department provided, he refused to talk with his family, and of course, he was not talking to me. I assume he was talking to OW. However, at one point he did tell me he wished all the attention around his colleague's murder would just go away so life could return to normal (???).
During this time, H has worn a plastic rubber bracelet with his colleague's name and date of death on it. It broke about two weeks ago and H was really upset. He immediately got another one. In the meantime, H had a silver cuff custom made, which he picked up yesterday and has been sporting. The murderer is being prosecuted and H attends all the court appearances and hasn't missed a single one. Even if it means missing S's drop off in the morning.
I bring this up because all of this stirs up a lot of issues for me. I feel triggered. I am angry, jealous, and perplexed.
I am angry because H, at least on the outside, shows such loyalty and dedication to a man he didn't know. And yet, he hasn't shown me and our family any loyalty. I am jealous. And I don't understand it. In my mind, I have tried to explore his motives for his behavior. Ultimately, it leads nowhere. I could speculate until the cows come home, but it gets me nowhere. So what does that leave me? I need to look at me.
I think I know why it bothers me so much. My mom. My mother would hold herself out to be a doting, caring, and loving mother at all times. But secretly behind closed doors, she was terrible. She was physically and emotionally abusive and far from the person she portrayed herself as. I absolutely resented it. And I couldn't believe that people would fall for it. "Oh, your mom is so nice. She is so caring." Uh-huh. If you only knew.
I feel exactly the same way with H. That ridiculous bracelet symbolizes all of those emotions. If I could take it and chuck it into the ocean, I would.
What I want to tell him, in a nutshell, is this: You are fooling no one, just yourself. It is pathetic how you so desperately want people to believe you are a loyal and caring person, when in reality, the only person you care about is yourself. I hope people can see you for what your true self. I hope people see through the façade you have created.
How do I handle these feelings? I realize where they originate and why I feel as strongly as I do. I realize that it is not up to me to expose the façade. That is in God's hands. He has so got this. I have to keep walking in my light and searching for my truth and leave H to God. I believe that H's false mask is as transparent as saran wrap and sooner or later, if H allows people to get close enough, they will see right through it. Let H be, give it to God. Focus on myself.
I think this is more your issue than his. I am seeing that as a bit of a theme with you recently (like the yard work).
Given the MLC and the fear of death, I'll wager it is nothing more than he sees his own mortality in this man's death and would want to be remembered if the same thing happened to him. Sometimes people act like things are no big deal because they are in fact the big deal (my H refuses to acknowledge that his f'ed up mom who is the source of his drama has any bearing or impact on his life).
You have to detach more. You are in the anger phase of grief and everything he does at this point is pissing you off.
I agree with OwnIt - I don't think his behaviour about his fellow officer is about you, I think it is part of his MLC churn and avoidance. Was his lack of emotion initially unusual for him? Not uncommon for men in tough professions, though. But the bracelet is inconsistent with that.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Hi OwnIt and Treasur - Oh yes, this is MY issue, not his.
"Given the MLC and the fear of death, I'll wager it is nothing more than he sees his own mortality in this man's death and would want to be remembered if the same thing happened to him."
I didn't think of this ^^^. Thank you for sharing that perspective. This resonates with me so I do think this might be part of it for H.
Oh yes, he is pissing me off. Big time. I am working on detaching more. Just when I think I am getting the hang of it, I am tested. (Like the bracelet.) I think it is good. It helps me find the issues and work on them.
Treasur - I love the "churn and avoidance" description. That is exactly what they do, isn't it? His lack of emotion was not unusual for him, not at all.
I am working on not giving the why's of this too much more headspace. There is just no way for me to know.
The only thing I can do is work on the fact that this has stirred up a lot of emotion in me.
Fight I've been a lot more emotional lately and I think it is because I am finally letting go of all my hopes for an intact family for my kids. Everyone keeps telling me that my kids are doing great and it's me that is the problem. I'm seeing that now and have started with a new counselor with the agenda to just get over it already. Would love your thoughts on what I just posted on my own thread if you have a minute.
OwnIt - You are not a problem. You have a problem that you are working very hard to deal with.
For all of us, our hopes and dreams of an intact family seem to evaporate before our very eyes. I know I share that feeling. It rocks me to my core. I strongly believe that family is one of the most important thing in our lives. Keeping it healthy and intact, should be a priority. For me, I strongly believe it is best for the children to have two parents in one home (absent abuse). I also believe that working on what you have is often the best course of action because you carry with you all your problems into your next relationship.
I believe in my vows and the promise that I made.
I am coming to realize that some of my disappointment in all of this also lies with myself. I am disappointed that I chose my H as a mate (but then again I wouldn't have S, so I carry a lot of mixed feelings around this one). I am disappointed that I didn't do the work to resolve my childhood issues sooner. I am disappointed in how I handled conflict in the marriage - I really wish I handled things better.
Part of letting the marriage go may mean resolving our disappointments with ourselves?
Fight, I think that is ultimately the key. I share the disappointment in choosing this person and the dilemma over what that would be like in view of my children.
By saying I'm the problem, I mean I'm the one who isn't moving forward. The kids are there and are getting frustrated with me. My friends, family and counselors are frustrated with me. None can understand why I don't file for divorce. I hear it from one or more people every single day.
I don't believe in divorce and do not believe that I should have to file as the person who upheld my vows as best I could. Yes I get that he is seriously messed up and will likely not be any better.
But, for now I have support that maintains our lives and has helped me get out of debt and pay my daughter's tuition, I have health insurance I don't have to pay for, I am not paying lawyer fees (yet), We have gone from outright enemies to neutral for the most part in our interactions with one another. I am learning a great deal about myself, what I will tolerate, what I won't. How I need to improve as a person and as a partner in a relationship. I am fighting from a position of strength and not taking the crumbs that are being set out for me.
The thing I am not mastering is not losing my cool now and again and wanting this to be over and resolved. I see that as more my control issues than anything he is doing. What he is doing is not greatly changing. He is paying the bills, sometimes he contacts the kids and sometimes he doesn't, sometimes he visits and sometimes he doesn't. He seldom contacts me and I seldom contact him.
I think the two of us are in a similar place and struggling with similar issues. Yours has filed, I don't think mine will. But then again there is no guarantee that yours will go through with it.
The emotions are odd, aren't they? And how they can nibble at you and suck you into doing stupid stuff? And writing your own 'stories' which then upset you or make you angry?
I really resent how my H's actions have brought a whole bunch of dark WTF stuff into my life. At times recently, I have felt punch drunk by new WTF shocks. But I have also realised that I have invited that in sometimes and then felt a burst of rage about it. An example was that when we did speak briefly recently, STBXH said a couple of things which mind reading could translate as OW no longer being in the picture. I told myself to not take the bait. Then a few days later when I received a parcel and realised it was sent from the city where OW lives, I was furious about more lies... But here's the thing, the actual words he said were the normal MLC unclear blah...might have meant that, might not. I lied to myself in effect that I was detached and it didn't matter...meanwhile my head quietly spun a story...and then I got angry at 'evidence' the story wasn't true. Really angry.
But I chose the story. I chose not to ask him directly. I chose to go online and check the dispatch office for the parcel. I chose to replace the original story with one about him being a lying xxx. And I chose to let the anger ruin my day. I don't know the truth. I've just told him that I will not chat to him as he now wants. That choice was just about my boundaries, nothing to do with OW. We are not rebuilding but almost divorced, so OW is not relevant other than financial links. It was a self-inflicted WTF wound.
Fortunately, reading posts here helped me see that and I could also give myself a self-inflicted 2x4! The truth is that the more time we spend in their heads (or MLC lives), the less time we are spending in our own. We sabotage our own detachment and GAL. I think MLCers bring enough lies to the party; our job is to be as gently honest with ourselves as we can, and it's hard to look at your own squirmy bits isn't it? I can't understand much of my STBXH's behaviour but I can choose to understand what drives mine. How I can feel a mix of emotions all at the same time and how stories built on sand don't help. (I have a virtual self-created box set of him staying in our favourite hotel in Paris with OW, buying wedding dresses and sex romps by the coast if anyone is bored!)
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Treasur you are indeed a treasure. I haven't had any insight to add to your thread but am impressed by your strength and your self-reflection. This really resonated with me.
Thank you OwnIt...I am a while into this now, although didn't see it for MLC until about a month ago...duh
Tripped over a fab line from an old post by Nitty...my favourite silver lining for this week
"I've learned some valuable communication skills that will come in handy during extremely stressful situations, like, say, during a Zombie Apocalypse."
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
I am reaching out again to this community to help me think through an issue I am experiencing.
Over the last week I have noticed that S has developed a stutter. He is two years old. Yesterday morning, when S stuttered in our presence, I brought it to H's attention. I told him I felt like this was something we should note and keep an eye on. (Isn't this what parents do? i.e., Monitor behavioral changes so they don't become a bigger problem later.) He immediately stated something along the lines of well, I have several questions about this: is this even a problem, how many two year olds do this, is this normal?
I am kicking myself because I allowed him to divert my attention (yet again) and answered his questions and did not address the underlying issue. Ugh.
Notwithstanding that ^^^, which I believe I handled poorly (in retrospect, perhaps I should have validated his concerns, but then ask to continue to address mine? ). I felt criticized by his questioning. I felt like my concerns were sidelined and dismissed (we never really addressed the heart of the issue).
I do not feel like bringing this up again. Some of my reluctance stems from a lack of motivation in wanting to deal with H. Another part of it is a bit of a defeatist (I don't know if that is the right word) attitude. And what I mean by that is if past behavior is any indication of future behavior, and since he is still in replay, and since he is still behaving in a way to justify his behavior and choices, then what can I expect to gain by bringing it up?
Another confrontation? Most definitely. A conversation that goes nowhere? Yes.
I would love to show him that I can approach old problems in new ways. I would love to demonstrate my ability to discuss this issue without blaming or criticizing or raising my voice or get emotional.
But then I ask, where would this even get me? It certainly wouldn't turn the tide on the divorce. I don't expect him to suddenly have an "a-ha" moment, smack his head, and say "wow, I was wrong about us all along." Admittedly, I would like it to have an impact on how he sees things. However realistically, what I know is that we cannot do anything to influence or change them.
Then on the other hand I say, yes, while this one interaction may not have an impact, if we continue to have positive interactions in the future, can't THAT have an impact? Or is that hoping/expecting too much?
Am I afraid? Yes. I am afraid that bringing this up again will only provoke him into a fight. He will find a way to verbally jiu jitsu me into being the villain and ultimately giving him more justification for the divorce. I am not confident enough that I can defend my new insight without getting upset or led astray.
All of this brings me to my question, what do you all think? What is your perspective? Have you dealt with a similar issue?
All of this brings me to my question, what do you all think? What is your perspective? Have you dealt with a similar issue?
Let it go? Give it a try? Why or why not?
Hello FightOn,
Are you asking about the situation with your husband or with your son?
If it is about your son, ask your pediatrician about it at your next visit if it is still an issue.
If it is about your husband, don't be too hard on yourself regarding past mistakes on how to handle things. Slip ups happen! The good news is that you are recognizing the slip ups and are learning from them.
The best advice I can give you is to call a Divorce Busting Coach today. Many of your online friends will agree that Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best advice on how to save your marriage and keep your family together. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004
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Hi FightOn, I'm. It sure what your question is either. Is it that you want to know if you should bring up the issue of your Son's stutter knowing H won't like or as he is in replay that you shouldn't bring it up again?
Maybe you should just take your so to your peadiatrician as Cristy says to hopefully put your mind at ease. You can let H know afterwards.
Me - 47 H - 45 D-16 M - 6 years Separated - May 16
Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
I should clarify my question - it is about talking to H about my feeling about how he treated my concerns. If I did, it would be something along the lines of, "I brought up something that was important to me and I felt dismissed and criticized afterward. Perhaps that was not your intent. I would like our interactions to change so that neither of us feels dismissed or criticized."
Fight, that conversation is going to get you nowhere. He doesn't care about your feelings at all. I think you keep expecting things of him that he just isn't capable of now.
I wouldn't have even mentioned the stutter. I'd take S to the doctor, keep note of it, and only tell him if there was some impact of when he was alone with S (like Dr wants a record of each time it occurs and circumstances or something).
I feel like you are trying to get him to parent and he just isn't there.
I agree 100% w/OwnIt. Your h is out to lunch and isn't going to step up to the plate and be the parent that you are expecting him to be. He's not capable of taking care of himself...so how can he be a parent? He's in teenager mode and we all know how teens can be at times.
As for your son's stutter...take your child to the doctor and he/she may recommend a speech therapist or someone who specializes in this field.
Unfortunately, you are having to be both parents for the time being. I know it's difficult...but you can only rely on yourself at the moment.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
You are telling me what my intuition is telling me. I just don't like it.
I do expect him to be a parent. I find myself confused at times by his actions. For instance, I see moments where it seems he is trying to parent. So in my mind, I think, he does want to parent.
I should know better. Part of this is me wanting him to step up.
Thanks again Job and OwnIt for your input. I think I needed confirmation from someone else to have the confidence to believe my gut.
I am reaching out again to this community to help me think through an issue I am experiencing.
Over the last week I have noticed that S has developed a stutter. He is two years old. Yesterday morning, when S stuttered in our presence, I brought it to H's attention. I told him I felt like this was something we should note and keep an eye on. (Isn't this what parents do? i.e., Monitor behavioral changes so they don't become a bigger problem later.) He immediately stated something along the lines of well, I have several questions about this: is this even a problem, how many two year olds do this, is this normal?
I am kicking myself because I allowed him to divert my attention (yet again) and answered his questions and did not address the underlying issue. Ugh.
The way I see it, these are pretty valid questions. How did he divert your attention away from the underlying issue?
You might be taking things kind of personally because of the way you guys interacted in the past. I wasn't there for the convo, but it seems like you mentioned something, he asked questions instead of blowing it off totally.....
You both noted it. Perhaps he is going to keep an eye on it too, but didn't verbalize it. he acknowledged it was there.
Ginger1 -- you are right, the questions, by themselves are legitimate. Nonetheless, he managed to divert my attention by never addressing of how to address this issue. We have not discussed it. Should we wait and see? Who should we talk to?
The conversation and his questions centered around the validity of my perceptions that this could be a potential problem.
Perhaps I am being overly sensitive; I certainly recognize that possibility, which is why I presented the question here.
On the other hand, I have felt throughout most of the marriage, my opinions and views have been discounted or outright dismissed. Many times when I bring up a point of view, H will take the opposite stance. He often has a "contrarian" attitude about my opinions and ideas.
Regardless, I have let it go with H and have chosen to act on my own toward what I consider S's best interest. The bottom line is I know I cannot count on him to take parenting issues seriously. And realistically, since we are divorcing, my interactions with him will be limited.
What I take away from this is I need to learn the very difficult lesson that he is not the person I thought he was. I need to constantly keep in mind that I need to solely address the parenting issues unless and until he can step up to the plate.
On another MLC related note, I got my haircut over the weekend. My hairdresser is also H's hairdresser. H and her have known each other for close to 20 years. She knows what has happened because I have told her; H has said nothing.
She told me that despite knowing him for 20 years, he keeps her at arm's distance. She has always thought it strange, but just figured that is the way he is. I find this insightful because I am realizing he does this to everyone in his life. His few friends have told me the same thing. I bring this up because I feel validated by having this information. It is something I can point to and say, okay, it all isn't just in my head.
She also told me he asked her for references for laser hair removal and a liposuction doctor. H has always complained that he has a "fat" gut. Nothing could be further from the truth. He is in absolutely amazing shape. But when he was a teenager, he as rather husky and had to shop in the "husky" section; this seems to be something that has scarred him. The hair removal is no surprise. He meticulously shaves himself. Everywhere. I will leave it at that.
He also went to get a pedicure this weekend. And he has been buying some new clothes. He hasn't spent more than $300 to $500, but that is a lot for him.
Saturday night S and I went to a concert in the park with some friends. We had a picnic and it was wonderful. The food was delicious, the music was spectacular, the company friendly and light, and the weather was perfect. I just love attending those kinds of events. I would have had a glass of wine, but I was driving and had S with me. I don't like to imbibe when I am out and about with S.
I got home around 9 p.m. and H was out. This is the first time he has gone out at night since BD. He came home at around 9:30 p.m. I didn't ask where he went, what he did, etc.
I can't help but feel he did this as way of giving me the big middle finger. I feel like it was out of spite. He literally has no one he socializes with. He hasn't gone out with friends in years and years. The only friends he has are these women.
He did end up letting it slip that he was found a part we needed to fix a broken ceiling fan and he got a haircut.
I thought maybe some of this replay behavior would subside after he served me. But it all seems to be increasing. Have others on here seen replay behaviors increase after being served?
It seems like he is desperately continuing to look for outside things to fix his inside issues. I wish he would spend half as much effort fixing his inside issues than he spends on his outside appearance. I can't control him. I know. He has to learn this lesson on his own. Too bad he has to blow up his family in the process.
My ex's replay remained with him right on thru the divorce and unfortunately, he's stuck after all these years. Some of they ramp up their replay activities when we are served and more so right after the divorce takes place. They get an euphoric high thinking that life is going to be oh so grand now that I don't have that old ball and chair wrapped around my ankle...but they soon discover in about 6-9 months that things aren't so great. Again, each one is different, some go thru the crisis and others remain stuck in la la land.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I haf H served with my Response. He was very angry. In it, I request sole legal and physical custody of S, with visitation to H, attorney's fees, and spousal support.
I think it was the last two that really caused him to blow a gasket.
After I put S to bed, he asked me whether we were going to talk about "that" as he pointed to my Response. I told him we could, just not that night. (I was tired, he was furious, and I had work to do.) I told him we should set a date and time in the future. He started in on whether I was gping to get an attorney, we have to do what is best for S, blah, blah, blah.
He was angry and I did not want to engage.
This was on the 26th and we haven't discussed a date.
The next day, Thursday, he stayed out late. He stayed out late on Friday as well.
Today, I am feeling sad over the whole situation. I do feel a lot of compassion for H and his internal struggles. I have been doing a lot of reading about Developmental Trauma, which has shed a lot of light on the behaviors I see. Maybe that is another reason why I feel sad.
I am also saddened by the fact that some MLCers don't come out of the tunnel. How sad for them and the families they impact. Meanwhile, we all have to sit by and watch them unravel their lives.
I look at the sweet innocent face of my S and I cannot understand how anyone can look into his eyes and not want to do their best for him.
OwnIt - "He is beginning, for the first time, to experience the consequences of his actions."
That is what I was thinking.
So last night he ambushed me again. After I put S to bed I went into the garage to retrieve some things from my car and he was standing at the kitchen counter with a notepad and some papers in front of him. He said he wanted to know if now would be a good time to discuss the divorce.
Is it me, or is he just not listening to me?
Is it me, or is this a control thing with him?
Maybe I wasn't clear enough the first time? Perhaps he didn't hear me when I said we should pick a day and time to discuss this? Maybe I need to say it again?
Or is he pushing my boundary?
I replied as calmly as I could that no, it wasn't a good time and either later in the week or next week would be better for me. He asked why I didn't want to discuss it then and there. My response to him was that I have a big project due at work on Wednesday and that is where my focus was at the moment.
So I got punished this morning for not wanting to do things his way. He made a jab at me because I left a fish oil pill on the counter and S reached for it. He said I should know better. I didn't respond. Then, I put a t-shirt with a bulldozer on it on S and H kept trying to correct me telling me it was a digger. Really? I didn't respond.
As I type this I realize, well, at least he isn't indifferent to me (because that is the opposite of love). He is obviously very angry at me. At least that is the way I see it. Very passive aggressive.
So as I heal and work through my issues, I keep in mind that this behavior is all about him and not me. This childish/teenagerish behavior is just where he is emotionally at this point in time. I didn't cause this behavior. He, like me, can choose how to respond. He does have choices.
He can treat me with dignity and respect, he can be kind, he can move out, he can treat me the way he is treating me. There are so many choices available to him.
For me, I can respond in kind. I can be mean, vindictive, spiteful, etc. Or I can kill him with kindness. Or I can ignore it and continue on my way.
I am doing my best to ignore it and continue on my way.
I know I am still not as detached from him as I would like because this does bother me. Although not as much as it once did. Six months ago I would be really angry, now I am . . . frustrated.
On the positive side, I am trying to reframe this in my mind so that I look at it as an opportunity to learn to detach from other people's behaviors. To really learn that what other people say or do is not about me; it is about them.
Fight, I struggle too with the whole indifference vs. anger. Mine feels a tremendous amount of anger at me. Great vats of steaming, bubbling, toxic rage. Is that good? Does that mean he still cares? If so, I wish he didn't. I think indifference would feel so nice.
Narcissists crave CONTROL over all else. Mine controls me by not letting me talk. We will talk, as we did, this weekend. Then he tells me he is done talking and won't respond to me until the next day. Then I don't respond to him, yada yada yada yada. How do I get out of that game? How do you?
Do you really think talking to him is going to resolve anything on the custody or spousal support issue? I think not. I think it will just keep that simmering vat boiling over. I would tell him straight up that the lawyers will handle this. In the end it will be cheaper and save your sanity. My friend finally convinced me to stop talking to him about anything other than the kids and tell him anything else has to go through lawyers. I finally feel better. I set my ring tone to silent, my text tone to silent, and no vibration from him. I won't panic one more time when I hear one of those tones.
You have your plan. Keep things calm. Get out of the house. When you get down the road a little, work through lawyers to put a close on this.
Once you aren't in the same house and don't have to listen to him contradict you on a T-shirt image or imply that you are a horrible parent because god forbid your child could have ingested one fish oil capsule, your life will change to such an extent and you will be able to breathe in a way you haven't in your marriage.
You are getting closer my friend. Your freedom awaits. Lest you question your actions (and remember he put all this in motion) I will say that the further I've gotten from this, I see that my children are treating me in some ways as he always has. I'm shutting that down cold. You don't want your son to grow up like him. That simple.
OwnIt - thank you for standing beside me while I go through this. Your insight helps prop me up when I need it most.
Sometimes I too think indifference would be nice. But there is a part of me that is holding onto hope that he will come out of this and we can work on salvaging the relationship. Unrealistic? Yes. Naïve. Probably. But I am still hanging onto it.
My H is a cop. Cops need control. It's how they survive on the street. It is a game. How do you get out? You just stop.
As they say . . . detach (as if I am one to talk). Don't let it bother you. Let them make their choices, you make yours.
You are right about resolving the child custody issue and spousal support. (I just asked for spousal as a throw away issue - I will never get it. We make the same.) We probably won't resolve it on our own.
Maybe if I am nice to him and approach him. Maybe if I make things easier on him, he might be more willing to concede on the one issue that is most important to me (custody time). Doing so would defy the advice of those on here that say it's his divorce, let him do the work. Am I just being naïve to think making things easier for him might cause him to give me something I want? Am I being a defeatist when I say that I don't think being nice and making things easier is going to make one bit of difference? Do I just not want to be nice and this is just an excuse for me? Am I torturing myself? YES!!!!
I can feel the little girl in me pulling me back toward old patterns and old ways of doing. As I walked to get some lunch, I thought to myself, I should face it and give up everything. Give up trying to change myself and the dance between H and I. I thought it would really be much easier to just respond the way I always have --> which is to spout off without thinking. It really is so much easier to just default to what we know. It is so much harder to fight that default setting and do something differently.
Maybe me being silent and just not responding is a positive step in the right direction. I am learning restraint - the first step toward learning to respond, not react.
Or am I just being a chicken? Being a chicken would be just giving up. Afraid to change.
Part of me wants to approach H and set a date and time to discuss the particulars (then during the meeting just sit back and let him do the talking, then tell him I need to think about what he has said).
But another part of me thinks I should let him make the effort. This is what HE wants, then he needs to do all the work. That is the approach suggested by many on these boards. My issue with this approach is that meanwhile, he cuts me down. Mentally, I find myself having to fight the urge to verbally joust with him. Then I feel frustrated because I cannot say what is truly on my mind. I am left defenseless.
Oh my. That is it!!!! I feel defenseless. Just like I did when my mother would go on one of her tirades and beat me.
Wowzers. I am recreating that old dynamic with my mother.
So how do I change the dance steps? What can I do differently?
Let's see, I can step up and talk about setting up a meeting. Or I can let him come to me and in the meantime, change the way I see this.
(And let's face it; any meeting is bound to not go well.)
I need to keep my focus on this as a learning experience. I have things I need to learn. If I approach him, I am doing what I always do. Charge forward. Which feels good to me. I feel a measure of control. Almost like I am impacting the direction of this whole thing. But that is just a false sense of control. I don't have control over where this is going. God has control.
So what is God telling me?
I get the sense he is telling me to do the thing I don't want to do; the unfamiliar. I need to wait until H comes to me. Continue to work on me. Focus on me. What's the rush anyway?
How do I know if this is really what God is telling me? How do I know if my instincts are genuine and not a product of what I want? Where can I look to for reassurance?
I understand. Naive? Not sure it's naive. Hopeful is how I'd characterize it. And I don't think it will work.
Pragmatic, not defeatist. Realist, not defeatist. As for it being an excuse, only you can answer this honestly. This process is painful and very difficult. Go easy on yourself. xoxoxo
Originally Posted By: FightOn}aybe me being silent and just not responding is a positive step in the right direction. I am learning restraint - the first step toward learning to respond, not react.
Or am I just being a chicken? Being a chicken would be just giving up. Afraid to change.
Part of me wants to approach H and set a date and time to discuss the particulars (then during the meeting just sit back and let him do the talking, then tell him I need to think about what he has said).
But another part of me thinks I should let him make the effort. This is what HE wants, then he needs to do all the work. That is the approach suggested by many on these boards. My issue with this approach is that meanwhile, he cuts me down. Mentally, I find myself having to fight the urge to verbally joust with him. Then I feel frustrated because I cannot say what is truly on my mind. I am left defenseless.
Oh my. That is it!!!! I feel defenseless. Just like I did when my mother would go on one of her tirades and beat me.
Wowzers. I am recreating that old dynamic with my mother. [/quote
This is your chance to break that pattern for good by speaking directly to that little girl and letting her know you've got this and you're going to try a different way. There's another way to look at this: By saying nothing and not engaging you are actually gaining strength. It's counter-intuitive but true. AND if it's a 180 for you, it makes them NUTS. (on a day when you may not be feeling saintly, that's not a bad thing) This is your "AHA" moment of the day. Pause and let it sink in for a moment, just a moment, and realize how much you've grown to realize this! Congratulations!
Let him do the work; this is his divorce.
[Quote=FighOn]I need to keep my focus on this as a learning experience. I have things I need to learn.
Look at my signature.
Posting this was a good first step. I think you're on to something. I think your instincts are sound. Keep the focus on you and your side of the street. Let him handle the divorce. Most of all, this gives you the time and space to really think about what it is you want most, what is most important to you. And it may be more than just custody time. As this continues, other things may become important as well. Reacting is always from a place of weakness. I'm glad you recognize this.
When you want to react, come here and post instead. xoxoxoxo Hope this helped.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
Trust that quiet voice. I believe it is divine. You are doing awesome!
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Fight, you have to do what feels right. I feel like today, without meaning to, I'm kind of mixing it up. A little quiet, a little compliant, a major offensive, and then a little business to keep it interesting. I'm trying on different skins to see what feels good in terms of dealing with him. That's the luxury of no longer giving a flip about DBing.
I still have this dyspeptic feeling inside that tells me I'm not happy and not settled (and how could I be when my sweet S may be hearing we aren't moving after all). I know its naive, but I feel a seed change coming. I think if I keep bugging him he will do something. I gave him 11 months of basically no contact and got nowhere. Now I'm going to be super annoying.
Thank you Bttrfly, Gordie and OwnIt. I appreciate your responses.
I really appreciate the validation and the support you are expressing about following my instincts. At times during all of this I feel like such a child. It's like I don't know what is right or wrong and I definitely do not trust my instincts. And I get angry at myself for allowing H's actions to impact me and question them.
He has repeatedly told ME that I live in fantasyland. And because of my FOO issues, I believe him. In order to survive my childhood, I placed all the blame on me. Children cannot blame their parents; they cannot see their caregivers are being the ones at fault, so they blame themselves.
So when H says these things to me; I believe him. It is difficult for me to accept that someone I was once close to and proclaims to care about me, could be wrong. Therefore, it must be me.
This is a difficult hurdle for me to jump over.
I am also finding that I still get bothered when I see him on the phone or when I hear his message alerts. I really don't like it.
Wednesday night after I put S down for bed, when I came out of his room, I noticed H had vanished. He wasn't inside the house or out in the yard; he wasn't in his personal car or his work car. Just gone.
I had noticed he was acting off while giving S a bath, but I didn't say anything. If he wanted to tell me what was bothering, then he can make the choice to reach out.
I was really worried. We live in an area with a lot of remote hiking trails. Given everything going on, I was concerned he went for a hike and was going to hurt himself. I called his cell and he didn't answer and I text and he didn't answer.
An hour later, he texted me to say he was fine and that he went for a walk. (Of course, my mind thought, "yeah right, you went to call one of your OW.")
I was in bed reading when he finally returned. He banged on the front door to get in the house (he didn't take keys with him). By the time I walked to the front door, he had moved around to the back of the house and was pounding on the back door. I couldn't see a thing and kept calling out, but he wouldn't respond. He turned on the flashlight on his phone and I saw his face so I let him in.
He has never done something like this before.
He brushed right past me and grumbled something about "of course all the doors are locked for the first time." I told him I was concerned about him and next time could he please just leave me a little note. He got angry and spewed about how I don't leave notes when I leave and nothing about our relationship has changed. I let it go. I told him I was glad he was all right and went back to bed.
I have been pondering the "nothing has changed" comment. From my perspective, much has changed. Nevertheless, I do think this is a kind of MLC script. He wants to know where I am at and what I am doing, but he will not reciprocate. And I think it is more justification for him.
Someone was definitely looking for a fight and it certainly wasn't me.
Thursday morning before he left for work he grumbled a very forced apology. I told him thank you and went about my business.
I am happy with how I handled the interaction when he returned home. Looking back, I am not so sure I should have called him or sent a text. If he were to do something to himself, there would be nothing I could do about it. And his answering a text or phone call would do nothing to change the scenario. Next time, I will just leave him alone.
From that whole exchange I can see how he is trying to project all of his negative emotions onto me. I can also see the emotional turmoil roiling around in his head. I am trying to have some compassion for him. I struggle with that.
When I woke up Thursday morning I had an old familiar pain in my stomach. That kind of doom and gloom feeling. The same feeling I had when my mother was in one of her moods and I was anticipating what would happen when I had to see her again. To calm myself, I reminded myself that I am no longer a little girl. I am not defenseless. I have a lot of choices on how to handle this situation. I don't have to take his venomous words or his mean attitude. I can ignore it. I can remind myself that all that bad behavior is all about him - it has nothing to do with me.
It's very normal to question your H's actions and to question them. Why? Because he's just not acting like the person you know and love. As for you living in a Fantasyland...that is projection. No, it's not all you. You can only claim 50% of the breakdown of the marriage...do not take on the 100%. If your H were more open to communicating his thoughts, comments and yes, even complaints over the years, you would have taken the extra care in trying to change the way you have been doing things.
As for the phone, yes, I can understand how that would bother you. He's like a teenager w/his secret little friends and has to go off be by himself to talk to the caller. Who knows who he was talking to, i.e., it could have been a male friend or an ow...but you will need to find a way to ignore the calls because it puts you in the alert mode and he can sense that.
As for the "nothing's changed" comment. My xh said the same thing and a lot of them say this. You can jump through hoops and do each and every thing that they point out that isn't to their liking and they will find something else wrong. It's about them and the fact that they do not know what they want and are searching for that something that will make them feel better. Change only those things that are valid and what you want to change for YOU. Make those changes for YOU and only if you are happy w/them because those changes will need to become a part of your routine. If you are only doing them to please him, he'll know that they are most likely a temporary thing.
The next time he disappears...leave him be. To him, your concern was more like checking on him as his mother would have done. I know you were concerned...but you've got to let him figure things out and if he's locked out...well...he knows how to call you on the phone and/or text you. Keep in mind, he's not the same man you know and love...you are dealing w/the mirror image, i.e., exact opposite of your "old" h.
They will do things to pick fights...the best thing is to stay calm and if you can distract him w/something else, then do so...but I think you handled yourself fairly well. Detach a bit more, keep the focus on you and your child and allow your man/child to grow up. One last thing...keep your expectations at zero and remember...he's going to do a lot of things differently than before the crisis.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Fight, again I don't envy you the tension of him being there. I have a hard enough time when he is so far away.
You are going to have to let go of the need to know who he is talking to or what he is doing. When you do those things he knows you are not detached and that you sitting there on the shelf where you are supposed to be. That makes him comfortable because he has the object of his pursuit and Plan B right where he wants them.
When you do your surprise attack move-out you will certainly get his attention and he will figure out that you are moving on. Until then, try to ignore what he is doing. Trust me I know how hard this is and I completely stink at it myself. I'm still taking the bait.
Sounds like your gut instinct knows two things - that aggressive control is part of his pattern now and it triggers old learned feelings and responses in you. Good thing is you see that, so it is a great opportunity to GAL by teaching yourself your own way to do boundaries and assertion.
Detaching so you can be calm and acting with your head not your heart or fears. Really getting that you are only responsible for YOUR behaviour, not his. Knowing that you have the right as a human being to be treated with respect or to walk away from situations or people who can't or won't treat you that way. You sound as if you're making big steps already.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Thank you Job, OwnIt, and Treasur. Becoming more detached is the key. It was extremely hard at first, but I am finding as I become more practiced, it becomes exponentially easier.
More typical MLC-type behavior over the weekend . . .
On Friday, out of the blue H texted me to tell me he had picked S up (H has every other Friday off) and was going to take him to the park. When he got to the day care the teacher told him he had diarrhea a couple of times so H said he rethought his plan and just went home saying that because of the heat and diarrhea, S should stay at home. I got this text when I was 5 minutes from the day care.
When I called, H gave me an earful. I told him I was 5 minutes away and it would have been nice to have known ahead of time that I wouldn't have to pick S up. H spewed that he had to ambush me because I don't let him take S anywhere. (This is true. Since December, when I found out he lied to me about taking S to a work function, but instead tried to arrange a meet with OW; as an aside, OW refused. He brought S home 1 1/2 hour past his bed time and later than when he said he would be back. He didn't text or call me to tell me he was running late, so for an hour and half I paced the house concerned about S. I told him that I could no longer trust what he was doing with S and as long as we are both living under the same roof, I was not going to allow him to take S anywhere. I know I may receive a 2x4 for this. I was trying to lay a boundary - which he has strangely honored. I realize when I move out, I won't be able to control what he does with S. I can live with that. What I couldn't live with was H taking S to meet OW while living under the same roof.)
I calmly responded that it would have been nice to know ahead of time. He seemed to calm down.
At this point, does it really matter? No. So long as I don't already have plans, I don't care what he does with S. That is on him. Also, by dropping the rope, he won't be getting the type of reaction he expects. Which means he won't have another thing he can point to as justification for what he is doing.
Although there is a part of me that thinks the only reason he did this was to try to provoke a reaction from me. I get the feeling he is looking for fuel for his justifications. I feel this way because he didn't do a single thing with S for the rest of the weekend. MLCers do things like this, no?
Anyway, once I arrived at home, S wanted to watch a movie on tv. H told him no that he should go outside and play. (What?!? He just told me that he didn't want to take S to the park because of the diarrhea issue and the heat, but now he is telling S to go outside and play. I don't see the logic.)
The power went out Saturday afternoon and wasn't restored until Sunday morning. When it went out, H was at the store. I was about to take S out to get his haircut and some dinner when H returned. Bummer. I was trying to lift the garage door to pull my car out so I got delayed. If the power had not gone out, I would have escaped before H returned home. So we went together and had dinner together. Something we haven't done since he had me served. When we returned home H disappeared for a couple of hours claiming he had a paper due for school and needed internet access. Yea, sure buddy.
While waiting for food, I pulled out an old phone I have. In June before we went to his nephew's wedding I erased the phone, then loaded it with toddler videos, movies, and games for the plane ride for S. H saw the phone and saw S watching videos on it during the trip. When I pulled the phone out of my purse, H asked if I got a new phone. Really? Their brains are this Swiss cheese?!? I said, no, this is the phone I have been using since the plane trip for nephew's wedding. You would have thought that I was speaking Mandarin to him.
On Sunday morning our washing machine broke. And boy did H get mad. I told him I would take care of it, but he insisted on looking at it. He was already in a foul mood about doing repairs because, if you recall, he pulled the towel bar off the wall in our 2nd bathroom, the ceiling fan in S's room broke again after he tried to fix it a couple of weeks ago, and there are ants invading our house. I have never seen him this angry over home repairs.
What's kinda funny is my dad commented to me that he thinks H just doesn't like to be reminded he has responsibilities. Lol! And my dad doesn't know a thing about MLC!!! When I told my dad about what happened at dinner re the cell phone, he reminded me that H doesn't remember anything unless it has to do with him. If something doesn't affect him or have to do with him, he isn't going to care. It is all about him. Hasn't HB reminded us of this? My dad also commented that he thinks H is going to go into a tailspin before this is all over. Dad thinks H is going to realize single life won't be the unicorns and rainbows he imagined. Isn't that what HB and the vets all tell us what happens? My dad is a regular MLC pro and he doesn't even know it. Or maybe God was using my dad to remind me of some things I needed to remember???
I went to see the house I will be moving into. It is half the size of our current residence and nowhere near as nice. But it is a place to live, it is cheap, and it is near family. All I can do is soldier on.
I feel your pain. Mine just picked up S for the day. I was trying to talk to him about some logistics stuff and once again he wouldn't look at me. At one point I stopped and said are we doing the not looking people in the eye thing again. I was trying to schedule an activity for him and S (that we had previously discussed) since we are leaving soon and I could see him thinking about how it would fit into his plans with OW2 as he was answering, since he was off work that week. I felt the rage boiling in me. After they left I texted him the day and time info and as usual, he has to let me know how insignificant I am by not opening it. I keep telling myself 3 weeks and I'm out of this part of the world (will have to come back on weekends and hopefully arrange movers). I told myself that's the last time I do him a favor. I'll just take S myself next time.
The new place will be nicer because he won't be there and his drama won't be there. You can't imagine how much more peaceful it will be not to have to deal with his nonsense. It will hurt at first, but it will quickly be preferable to be in his absence and then you will be complaining about the times you have to see him (like me).
OwnIt - The PA behavior just blows my mind. I really have a hard time with it from my H. My mom was that way and I had no way to express my frustration. So now, when I encounter that kind of behavior it really gets my goat. It's like I am making up for lost time.
When I came into work today, there was an email from a well admired colleague stating he is retiring and today is his last official day. This was news to everyone (except the head of this office). This is just like him to leave without any fanfare. No luncheon, no retirement party, no cake. Just an email wishing us all well and no forwarding contact information.
From where I sit, I would have liked to tell him what a pleasure it has been to work with him. I would like him to know that our office is losing a great resource and a tremendously talented lawyer. But really, he knows all these things. He doesn't need me to tell him. I will miss him.
I feel like crying. I know it is not all over my colleague's sudden retirement. It is about H too.
The lack of closure that I have been able to get. That makes me sad. The unspoken words. The unshared emotions. It is almost too much for me right now.
The two oddly parallel one another. At least I can recognize the emotions I am feeling right now don't just stem from my colleague's retirement, but there is some sadness over my situation with H in there too.
And with respect to H - what can be hard for me is the fact that even if I were to get answers to questions and get to share feelings, I couldn't trust any of it right now. I wouldn't believe a word he says. It would all be empty and probably just cause me more pain.
What I do know is I don't have to have the answers to move through this. I would certainly like them. But they aren't essential to healing myself. If some kind of intimate relationship were to develop in the future, well, we will have to confront this issue. For now, I will just have to table it. It's sitting on the shelf next to the box that has my love for H in it.
Fight I can so attest to that about not trusting even if you heard it. Yesterday when I was done looking at houses I felt such a joyless emptiness. I said Own, what is going on with you. You are looking forward to moving and being done with him. Then I said Own, you just don't trust him. So I stupidly texted him saying I was concerned about moving forward and selling the house because I didn't entirely feel that I have his cooperation in helping me get into another. He said he has reached the conclusion that S wants to move to new/old town and that he would cooperate. I told him that I didn't feel he was being candid with me and was now being controlling around money and making unilateral decisions. His response to that, "nope." Awesome. I feel completely better and reassured now.
There is no feel good. There is no closure. There is only wondering, confusion and pain until we replace those feelings with something else. I think that is why the advice is always to GAL. Action feels better than sitting around waiting. Action is forward-looking. Confusion and pain leave us mired in the past.
Maybe 10 years from now he will come back and admit that he was wrong in what he did. But you can't wait for something that may never happen.
I know that when you move and put some distance between the two of you that things will be better. I know that when I move and put (more) distance between us things will be better.
There is an ending for us. I think it is just a whimper and not a bang. But, while we have no control over this chapter, we entirely own the ones which are not yet written. I would rather look forward to those with some degree of hope.
I have been off the grid for a little while because I am in the midst of a lengthy jury trial. OwnIt - you probably totally get it!!! I haven't been doing as much non work related reading or writing as I would normally be doing.
H has been out of town since the 13th. Too bad I have been too swamped at work to enjoy the peace and quiet at home. We have texted very little. But he is more chatty in the texts that he has been in the past. We FaceTimed twice so he could talk to S. They were both short session, and in fact, during last night's session, S was having a tantrum so there wasn't much communication going on. Several times S tried to turn the phone off. Lol!
Having the physical distance from H has been really nice. While I have not had much time to really think about it, just the lack of his physical presence has been a relief. Sometimes I do catch myself wondering if this is how it will be when I move out. It seems to have helped with deepening my detachment. The real test will be when he returns. If I still feel the level of detachment I feel now, well, I will be grateful.
There are moments where I feel I could not care any less about H. My love for him is safely on a shelf, locked away. I don't care what he is doing, who is seeing, or who he is talking to, or who he's with. And for the first time in a very long time, I r-e-a-l-l-y feel it. In trying to write about it, all I can say is I feel peace. I think that is what I am feeling.
I feel like I can step back and see him for the hot mess he is.
I will confess that throughout this process I have sometimes questioned some of the teachings and practical advice I have been given and read about. Whether it be because of my skeptical nature or because of my "it's all my fault issues." But during this break, I feel my eyes opening and I am getting a greater perspective. I can really start to see and truly feel that 1) I am not responsible for my H's affairs; 2) the marriage is not responsible for H's affairs; 3) that there is something deep inside him, that he doesn't even realize is there, that is causing him to react to things in his life with these maladaptive coping mechanisms; 4) that he is running from facing himself; and 5) that life with OW will not lead him to greener pastures (this last one is a biggy for me and still a bit of an issue, but I do feel it less and less over time; I can't say if that is because I think they are still really broken up or if it's b/c I am learning to let this go).
One of the hardest parts of this for me still is the fact that there is nothing I can do about any of the above. He is no longer interested in my opinion (sometimes I think he never really was interested, even before MLC, he just went along to get along) and my words carry no weight. That is part of this process. And really, I am no longer interested in his opinion and his words haven't carried any weight with me for a long time. Is that part of detachment? Is that part of falling out of love?
I do still struggle with the difference between falling out of love and MLC. The lines between the two blur. Maybe they are interconnected. I do have trouble accepting the fact that his love for me is buried deep inside him. I'm not sure it's there. Admittedly, to maintain hope, I would like to see something more concrete on this. But that is MY want. Having blind faith in some things is really difficult for me right now.
I also wonder if the reason I'm not seeing anything more concrete on the issue of whether he really still loves me is because I need to just let him go completely. Is the lack of evidence and the deepening detachment an indication that I am being freed of my bond to him. I still question whether I'm being released, so right now, the answer is probably, no I am not being freed.
I apologize for the random nature of this post. I don't have a lot of time to organize my thoughts and feelings, but wanted to get as much as I could down before I have to return to work.
Fight I love the place you are reaching. I think once you are not living with him the healing can begin. He would have gone through this no matter who he was with. You owe it yourself and your son to have a glorious life and to focus on the happiness moving forward rather than the sadness of the past.
There are moments where I feel I could not care any less about H. My love for him is safely on a shelf, locked away. I don't care what he is doing, who is seeing, or who he is talking to, or who he's with. And for the first time in a very long time, I r-e-a-l-l-y feel it. In trying to write about it, all I can say is I feel peace. I think that is what I am feeling. Always grateful when I get that feeling. Never imagined I would, but it is a more peaceful place.
I feel like I can step back and see him for the hot mess he is. Yup. Stepping back does help you look at things more objectively.
I can really start to see and truly feel that 1) I am not responsible for my H's affairs; 2) the marriage is not responsible for H's affairs; 3) that there is something deep inside him, that he doesn't even realize is there, that is causing him to react to things in his life with these maladaptive coping mechanisms; 4) that he is running from facing himself; and 5) that life with OW will not lead him to greener pastures (this last one is a biggy for me and still a bit of an issue, but I do feel it less and less over time; I can't say if that is because I think they are still really broken up or if it's b/c I am learning to let this go). All true. And maybe necessary medicine for him. And OW? Who knows? But a relationship built on chaos and hot mess is unlikely to be a good place long-term. And it was never about OW; it's about him being a hot mess and he carries that with him until/unless he does the work on himself.
One of the hardest parts of this for me still is the fact that there is nothing I can do about any of the above. He is no longer interested in my opinion and my words carry no weight. That is part of this process. And really, I am no longer interested in his opinion and his words haven't carried any weight with me for a long time. Is that part of detachment? Is that part of falling out of love? Yup. Yup. We're on opposite sides of the street. MLC man isn't interested in any opinion but his own or those who agree with him. We don't want the opinions of MLC to run our lives. It is detachment. Is it falling out of love? I don't know. Mr MLC isn't the man I love. If he turned up on my doorstep (and some people have had this happen), I think it would be easy to see the difference if the person we love was in their eyes and voice again, instead of the dead eyes/cold voice thing. That's the battered person we love.
I do still struggle with the difference between falling out of love and MLC. The lines between the two blur. Maybe they are interconnected. I do have trouble accepting the fact that his love for me is buried deep inside him. I'm not sure it's there. Admittedly, to maintain hope, I would like to see something more concrete on this. But that is MY want. Having blind faith in some things is really difficult for me right now. Understandable. I think this is the most painful thing for me. To see someone behave as if so many years of love and friendship are erased. I don't know if they still love us or even remember it. I do know that they did and we didn't imagine that. I do know that a healthy person can't end years of a shared life without feeling some regret and emotion about it. I comfort myself by saying that unless my H gets well, his take on it is not very reliable so better to trust my own judgement! But it hurts to go from someone to no-one, from wife to stranger or enemy. Detachment though does help you see how far from 'normal' that is, how a normal M falls apart as opposed to what we've experienced. I'm not sure people in crisis are capable of focusing on other people enough to do what we would see as love.
I also wonder if the reason I'm not seeing anything more concrete on the issue of whether he really still loves me is because I need to just let him go completely. Is the lack of evidence and the deepening detachment an indication that I am being freed of my bond to him. I still question whether I'm being released, so right now, the answer is probably, no I am not being freed. Yup and yup again. Maybe it becomes a different kind of bond? I've often thought how I would feel and what I would do if he'd died instead of becoming mentally ill. Would I still love him and miss him? Yes. But I would also have to let that love and yearning sit on a shelf because my H would be unavailable to me, and I would need to start living a different life without him.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
I am done with my trial and was promptly greeted with a bout of stomach flu. I have not been up to reading or catching up and have been trying to sleep off this flu.
In the meantime, a short update.
H was away for training for about two weeks in August while I was in trial. It was absolute heaven. Not having to tolerate his passive aggressive nonsense was absolute bliss.
But alas, all good things must come to an end. When he got back, much of the same PA craziness.
His porn obsession is amping up as well. He is up to about an hour a day trolling free porn sites. Sometimes even visiting the ones where you can "chat" with the girls and tell them what you want them to do. Nice, huh. I am no addiction expert, but I tend to think an hour a day is obsessive/excessive. And I'm not anti-porn, to each their own. But I think his interest is corroborative of some kind of sex addiction. <-- Mind reading, I know. I'll stop now.
Strangely enough, H has been very nice and very helpful while I have been sick. It can be easy to get lulled into a false sense that something about him is changing when he behaves nicely to me. How sad that I have been conditioned to think behaving like a decent human being is a sign of "hope." I know otherwise. But I have to admit that there are moments I feel the pull toward false hope.
Realistically, I suspect he is up to something and that is why he is behaving so nicely.
I am continuing to make preparations for leaving. I hate to do it. I really do. I still want to have hope things will change. It seems to me, things rarely do for those marriages so deeply affected by MLC. This is so far from the family life I had envisioned. Sometimes, I still can't believe all this is really happening.
Hi Fight, glad you had a bit of a respite. Hope that you will soon be out and can enjoy your peace and quiet on a daily basis. It is ever so much more pleasant than having to deal with one of them.
My sister's family and I (and S) went to a water park on the 15th. I had such a good time. S didn't really want to participate too much. I think he was overwhelmed by it all. There was a lot going on. There was one water slide where you stand in a tube, they close the door, and the bottom drops out from under you. Woo Hoo! I did it twice! I felt like a kid again.
The house is coming along and I anticipate I will be moving in next week. I have mixed feelings as the date approaches. Part of me is afraid of what will happen at our house when I am gone. I am also afraid of having even less information about H when I move out. Perhaps that is a good thing?
H revealed to me late last week that there are two Internal Affairs investigations pending against him. When he told me he began to tear up. The discussion came about while discussing who would care for S the following day because S had a fever (another ear infection). I could see his eyes becoming glassy and his voice cracked a little. He immediately composed himself and changed the subject. I didn't pursue the matter. If he wants to talk to me, he knows where to find me. I don't know if either of the claims have any merit. What I do know is it takes a lot of proof to get someone punished for wrongdoing and these are his third and fourth IA in four years.
Part of me would like to see him fall. That is wrong. It is vindictive. I try not to think too much about it. God will handle it as HE sees fit. Not as I want. HE has got this.
A colleague of mine is married to another police officer. Her husband was at a training seminar with a detective that works for my husband. The detective that works for my husband told my friend's H an earful about H. The detective shared the fact that he thought my H was going to get demoted (who knows if this is true) and my H is messing around with cadets (who knows if this is true). The detective went on and on about how my H is a terrible boss and a terrible human being. According to my colleague, the detective gave her husband an earful. I suspect the demotion thing is just wishful thinking on the detective's part. I have no idea whether my H is really messing around with cadets. And at this point, it doesn't matter to me. Just keep it out of my house and away from my S. If H wants to demean himself in this way, so be it. He is the one who has to live with it. Not me. God will take care of it.
While my family was in town I purchased some cupcakes for dessert. I noticed one of them was missing. A coconut one. H does not eat coconut anything. Initially, I let it go. But after my family let, I couldn't resist. I confronted H about the missing cupcake. He claimed he ate it. He then asked me what I thought he did with it. I told him I thought he gave it to his girlfriend (her b-day was a couple of days after it went missing). Of course he denied it. I have no proof that he gave it to her, just a really strong gut feeling that he did. If he did, shame on him.
He continues to watch porn. He has an account with a site that allows you to "chat" with the women and make "requests." Yuck.
I am feeling less bothered by some of these issues. If this was last year and these issues came up, I know I would be reeling. Now, I just feel a little twinge compared to my heart sinking. Progress. But not where I would like to be because it still bothers me some. I still find myself wondering about whether my H is back together with one of his OWs. I still wonder if they aren't back together, will they get back together soon? Is he spending time with her?
None of this matters. I know she is nothing. A mere distraction. But, at times, I still find myself wondering whether it really is true love and I am kidding myself.
What this does tell me is that this is in God's hands. He is working. He is working on all of us. I just need to continue to step back and let him do his thing.
I believe you are right in thinking that your move out will be beneficial to you and S considering what is going on with your H at work. You really don't need that type of worry on top of everything else.
I would be suprised if your H is in 'love' with anyone else! Why would he feel the need to have a porn account (yuk!) if he was! It really sounds like his world is starting to crash around him and to top it all you and S will be moving out soon and that familiar comfort blanket of family will be gone.
I'm so sorry you are having to hear all this about him second hand Fight but I think you are very strong to be able to let it just roll off your back. Oh and the water park sounded like it was a scream!!!
(((Fight)))
Me - 47 H - 45 D-16 M - 6 years Separated - May 16
Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
I believe you are so right about the being in "love" part. I agree. I don't understand how the porn is not cheating if he is so in love with OW. But I'm not a man. And I am not H.
I have a question that I need help with.
I am turning my back on H; obviously, lol.
This Saturday morning I will be heading out of our home early in the morning to take care of an appliance and furniture delivery at the "new" home and I will bring S with me. How do I handle any questions by H, if he asks where I am going? I certainly don't intend on telling him the truth. My preference would be tell him it is none of his concern (but in a nice way). If I absolutely have to, I can tell him I am going to breakfast with my parents.
There is a part of me that thinks he has a right to know where I am taking S since we are still living under the same roof; but another part of me that thinks he has no right since he filed for D.
H revealed to me late last week that there are two Internal Affairs investigations pending against him.
Quote:
The detective shared the fact that he thought my H was going to get demoted (who knows if this is true) and my H is messing around with cadets (who knows if this is true). The detective went on and on about how my H is a terrible boss and a terrible human being.
Ummm.....in case you needed any further confirmation that this is NOT ABOUT YOU and that your H is NOT just a wonderful person who got temporary insanity during a MLC, but is actually a deeply flawed person with SERIOUS issues.
Let go, move on (safely). You already got a taste of how nice it is not to walk on eggshells around someone like this.
I couldn't clearly see my ex's narcissism until well after our separation, but boy, I'd sure never want to live with it again!
Just checking in to see whether you have gotten out and how the divorce is going. Hope you and S are doing well and have been able to step away from his circus.
They do help me get to the center of the matter. When I think about "why" I want or need to change things, part of the reason is what I am doing isn't working and two, I feel like he needs to experience how divorced life will be like.
