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Thanks for your replies "Anotherstander" and "Coconut", I'll get around to replying directly to your posts soon. First I want to go into what happened last night.

I had a bit of a breakdown last night. I was playing squash with a friend and I could feel myself getting angry for no real reason. In the end I kind of snapped and smashed my racquet to bits. That ended our session. When I hopped in the car to drive home it all sort of hit me at once and I broke down, there was no stopping it. I cried like I had never before but I was also angry for the first time during all this. Just as I was going through this moment my W called to see if I wanted dinner when I got home. I could barely talk and told her that I need to go to my sisters for a bit as I wasn't good, which she could clearly hear.

I had a talk with my sister, who has been my main support through all this, and felt a lot better afterwards.

When I got home my W and I had a talk. I told her that there was only one thing I needed from her at this point, one thing that I don't think I had really asked her. All I needed was to know that, regardless of her feelings towards me ATM, did she genuinely want/wish for our MR to work. If she didn’t, there was no point in me being there anymore. In more or less words, she said yes. She said she wishes she had feelings for me, they just aren't there right now. I’m happy with this. I’ve read enough books lately to realise you can't just simply turn those feelings back on.

Looking back at our last 8 or so months I think I’ve come to realise we have been going about this all wrong. We have sort of just tried to go back to normal and see if everything fixes itself. We were trying to fix too much too quickly. We have been flailing in the dark, and failing. I told my W we need to get help, real professional help. We need guidance. She is booking in to see a psychologist and I am booked in to see one next week. I told her that I want us to go to some joint sessions together as well. She agreed to all this.

I feel a lot better after last night, like we have taken a lot of the pressure off ourselves already. I think I needed to get out what I did as I had kept it bottled up. I hope this is a step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

And you need to respect her feelings, because right now all your efforts are telling her "he just wants me back, as usual he is all about what HE wants and not what I want." Give her time and space.

Space is what she has asked for and I'm happy to give it to her. She has been noticeably better since I have pulled back lately.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
Yeah she just sees that as you forcing your agenda on her. Remove all pressure.

I think we have had a lot of pressure on ourselves. She has definitely been feeling it as she has told me. I think last nights events have helped relieve a lot of the pressure.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
Because she was trying to get your attention for months or even years. You probably saw it as complaining and nagging and shut down on her. So she quit trying, and you thought things had gotten better because she wasn't nagging anymore. So then BD happens, and you're shocked. It seems to have come out of nowhere. But for her it's been going on for a long, long time.

Correct. When I told her that she is normal/happy through the day she told me that she has felt nothing or felt numb for so long that its almost easy for her to go like that, as it has been normal for her for quite a while.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Not anytime soon, but eventually she might. This takes time.

I'm happy to give this time as long as she genuinely wants to fix the MR.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
Yeah that's the alpha versus beta thing I mentioned above. You're a great housekeeper, father, etc. And that is FANTASTIC. But that's not what's going to make her attracted to you.

I feel like I can focus on myself better now after our talk last night. This is what I plan to really work on from here.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
That would be a very alpha thing to do, and surprisingly a move like that can snap the WAS out of their dream and make them realize the LBS is more important to them than they thought. But here's the thing, you can't do it as a strategy because she may very well agree. If you do it, make sure you do it because that's what you want.

She mentioned last night that maybe she needs some time apart, not in the same house, and that may shake her up and snap her out of it. I'm prepared to do this but not before we seek some professional help. If I do decide to do something like that it will be because I'm moving forward with my life, with or without her. Part of a LRT kind of thing I guess.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
But no intimacy, so I would say things are not at all normal, correct?

Normal for her as she has been feeling this way for a while, just I wasn't aware.

Thanks, your replies have been very helpful

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Originally Posted By: Coconut
My suggestion for you right now, is give her space. Be friendly, be kind, be there for her when she approaches you (validate), but give her time and space. While she's getting space to work on her, you keep working on yourself. I'd recommend reconnecting with friends and doing lots of things with them, or doing things that will help you make new friends. It will really help you to be passionate about life, and passion is sexy to her.
1. If your sleeping in the same room, do not pressure intimacy or relationship conversations at bedtime.
2. Don’t initiate any conversation talks, only have them if she initiates and make sure you validate her feelings, you don’t need to agree, but you need to verbalize that you understand how “SHE” feels about it.
3. If she questions why you’ve backed off, offer up that you’ve noticed that she’s struggling with trying to figure things out and you want to give her the space she needs to figure out what she wants.


All things discussed last night, even if I didn't mention it in my post.

We are sleeping in the same room but I have backed off. I have backed off on all forms of intimacy. I've told her that I have stopped it to give her space, and its there if she wants it.

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Originally Posted By: Forbet

All I needed was to know that, regardless of her feelings towards me ATM, did she genuinely want/wish for our MR to work. If she didn’t, there was no point in me being there anymore. In more or less words, she said yes. She said she wishes she had feelings for me, they just aren't there right now. I’m happy with this. I’ve read enough books lately to realise you can't just simply turn those feelings back on.


Oh boy. Well I've seen this play out often, and it's not what you think it is.

Quote:
I told my W we need to get help, real professional help. We need guidance. She is booking in to see a psychologist and I am booked in to see one next week. I told her that I want us to go to some joint sessions together as well. She agreed to all this.


Not good. In her current state of mind, counseling is more than likely going to push her out the door. Most MC is just divorce facilitation. There's no interest or effort in saving marriages. YOU should go to C, but let your W decide whether or not she wants to go to IC and y'all should definitely not go to MC unless it's your W's idea. And I don't mean you say it and she agrees, I mean she says "I want to do this and think it would be beneficial". I really don't think she's there yet.

Quote:
I feel a lot better after last night, like we have taken a lot of the pressure off ourselves already.


I hate being the bearer of bad news but you're putting too much hope into this. It's not unusual for a WAS to agree to counseling, but they almost always use it to their advantage. You'll sit there session after session talking about how the feelings are gone until the C will say "well maybe a temporary S is a good idea" and then she will be like "YES we should try that!!!!" It has played out this way countless times, including in my sitch. The WAS goes to MC so they can check it off their list of "Things I Did to Save the Marriage But it Didn't Work Anyway".

Give her time and space. I know you said you will but it bears repeating because most LBSs think "time and space" means "don't text her for 15 minutes and then send 6 texts" and "let her go to the store by herself this time but be waiting by the door when she leaves and gets home." You really need to make yourself scarce, I can't emphasize that enough. The last thing you want to do right now is rush her into MC and pressure her with a bunch of talk about the future and such.


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Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
Not good. In her current state of mind, counseling is more than likely going to push her out the door. Most MC is just divorce facilitation. There's no interest or effort in saving marriages. YOU should go to C, but let your W decide whether or not she wants to go to IC and y'all should definitely not go to MC unless it's your W's idea. And I don't mean you say it and she agrees, I mean she says "I want to do this and think it would be beneficial". I really don't think she's there yet.

Ok point taken

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
I hate being the bearer of bad news but you're putting too much hope into this. It's not unusual for a WAS to agree to counseling, but they almost always use it to their advantage. You'll sit there session after session talking about how the feelings are gone until the C will say "well maybe a temporary S is a good idea" and then she will be like "YES we should try that!!!!" It has played out this way countless times, including in my sitch. The WAS goes to MC so they can check it off their list of "Things I Did to Save the Marriage But it Didn't Work Anyway".

She did mention the other night that maybe we need to be away from each other for a couple of weeks. Maybe thats what she needed to shake her out of this and wake up to herself...her words, not mine.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
Give her time and space. I know you said you will but it bears repeating because most LBSs think "time and space" means "don't text her for 15 minutes and then send 6 texts" and "let her go to the store by herself this time but be waiting by the door when she leaves and gets home." You really need to make yourself scarce, I can't emphasize that enough. The last thing you want to do right now is rush her into MC and pressure her with a bunch of talk about the future and such.

You've made me realise that everything that we have done/tried so far or agreed to in the future has been my idea. I am giving her space in the house though. I'm already not messaging like normal through the day, or calling, or initiating conversations as I used to. Maybe I should move out for a while??

Once again, thankyou Anotherstander. You have made some good points and got me thinking.

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Had another talk with my W over the weekend. She initiated the talk, not me. She started by saying she doesn't hate me and doesn't want me to hate her. She had picked up on my mood lately, which hasn't been the best. I was quite down last week. Its something I'm really focusing on fixing right now, its just bloody hard!

I spoke my mind a bit more this time, told her some hard truths and how I was really feeling. Told her I was sick of the limbo I was in and that I didn't know if I could go on much longer. Told her how everything we have been trying over the past 8 months or so has been my idea, nothing has come from her. How when I think back, she hasn't really shown me that she is willing to try everything and fight to fix the MR. It's all come from me.

At one point she broke down a bit, gave me a long hug and sobbed "what have I done". I wasn't trying to upset her or make her feel bad, I'm just sick of the whole situation and let her know how I was feeling. At no point did I ask to try anything, plead her to stay, beg etc. I have probably done this, in one way or another, when we have talked in the past. It wasn't a heated discussion at all, was completely civil.

She moved into the spare bedroom a couple of nights before this. She wants space. I hear that loud and clear. I on the other hand don't want to feel like [censored] anymore. I am really trying this week to pick myself up and focus on me. I'm mentally preparing myself for all this to not work out. Trying to anyways. I'm seeing my psychologist this week so see what that brings.

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When a wayward spouse wants space 99.999% of the time that means they want to pursue a relationship with someone else but want you to sit patiently and wait, as their plan B, in case the new thing doesn't work out. The question then becomes, do you accept being plan B? Do you accept knowing that you'll do if something better doesn't pan out for her? These are things you have to get out in the open right now or resentments will grow like cancer. She's still all in on the wayward mindset right now. Deep in the fog. Zero remorse. Guilt, yes. Remorse, no.



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Originally Posted By: TxHubby
When a wayward spouse wants space 99.999% of the time that means they want to pursue a relationship with someone else but want you to sit patiently and wait, as their plan B, in case the new thing doesn't work out. The question then becomes, do you accept being plan B? Do you accept knowing that you'll do if something better doesn't pan out for her? These are things you have to get out in the open right now or resentments will grow like cancer. She's still all in on the wayward mindset right now. Deep in the fog. Zero remorse. Guilt, yes. Remorse, no.

I agree with this except that mostly that relationship is a fantasy.
So there are times that it is not even with real people but just all in their head.
Real people can not compete with fantasy because we all have warts and wrinkles.
An affair partner can come in many forms and the fantasy is always better than the real facts of it.


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Originally Posted By: Forbet

She did mention the other night that maybe we need to be away from each other for a couple of weeks. Maybe thats what she needed to shake her out of this and wake up to herself...her words, not mine.


That's the WAW's way of letting the LBS down slowly. She doesn't want time away, she just wants out. Period. She doesn't want to hurt you though, so she thinks talking about "time away" won't upset you as much because it's tinged with hope that she will want to return.

Originally Posted By: Forbet
You've made me realise that everything that we have done/tried so far or agreed to in the future has been my idea. I am giving her space in the house though. I'm already not messaging like normal through the day, or calling, or initiating conversations as I used to. Maybe I should move out for a while??


First, don't move out!!! The WAS needs to feel the impact of what they're doing, so if separation happens the WAS should be the one to go, and have to move their stuff, and deal with finding a place, etc. etc. She has to learn to miss you and she's more likely to if she has to move.

Second, you've been trying to save things and good on you for that. But hopefully you see now that it hasn't worked and won't work. To her it all just looks like pressure and pressure is what pushes the WAS out the door. Look at Sandi's rules again and live those rules. No talk about the future. No pressure. No following her around. No frequent calling and texting. Act "as if". Etc.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2230603

Originally Posted By: Forbet
Had another talk with my W over the weekend. She initiated the talk, not me. She started by saying she doesn't hate me and doesn't want me to hate her. She had picked up on my mood lately, which hasn't been the best. I was quite down last week. Its something I'm really focusing on fixing right now, its just bloody hard!


It is super hard, and I'm very sorry you're going through it! It is a life-changing experience. You will emerge better and stronger, but it takes a while to get there. I'm sure you feel like you needed to have that talk, but the R talks need to stop (see Sandi's rules).

Originally Posted By: Forbet
I spoke my mind a bit more this time, told her some hard truths and how I was really feeling. Told her I was sick of the limbo I was in and that I didn't know if I could go on much longer.


OK well that's actually a good lead-in to going dim on her. Time to embrace DB and Sandi's rules and really get serious about it. Between that and what you said above, your W will start thinking that maybe you're not going to wait around as plan B after all and that might worry her. I'm not trying to get your hopes up for an immediate reconciliation, but over time, it could happen!


Originally Posted By: Forbet
At one point she broke down a bit, gave me a long hug and sobbed "what have I done".


Like TX said, that's the guilt talking. She has no remorse because she thinks she's doing the right thing for both of you. So for her it's still full steam ahead even though she does feel bad about it. Not sure if you read other threads here but pay particular attention to Sandi's posts. She was a WAW and she gives some really interesting insight into what is going on in a WAW's head while they're in the fog. They feel bad and their emotions are all over the place, but at the same time they are resolute and without remorse.

Originally Posted By: Forbet
I wasn't trying to upset her or make her feel bad, I'm just sick of the whole situation and let her know how I was feeling. At no point did I ask to try anything, plead her to stay, beg etc. I have probably done this, in one way or another, when we have talked in the past. It wasn't a heated discussion at all, was completely civil.


Overall the convo wasn't a bad one, but again it's time to table all R talks. You both need time and space to think about things now. In house separations are very, very tough. Just try to find things to do out of the house to really give her space.

Originally Posted By: Forbet
I on the other hand don't want to feel like [censored] anymore. I am really trying this week to pick myself up and focus on me. I'm mentally preparing myself for all this to not work out.


I think we can all relate to your sentiments about not wanting to suffer anymore! I'm sorry to say though, there's no quick fix. If you leave you won't feel better. If you kick her out you won't feel better. If you push for D you won't feel better. Just hang in there and take things a day at a time for now. Just try to do things to take your mind off your W. The more you can give her space and do things independently of her the better you both will start to feel.


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Originally Posted By: Cadet
I agree with this except that mostly that relationship is a fantasy. So there are times that it is not even with real people but just all in their head. Real people can not compete with fantasy because we all have warts and wrinkles. An affair partner can come in many forms and the fantasy is always better than the real facts of it.

I'm no psychologist/counselor but I do believe that she is still grieving the A in one way or another. Not necessarily the OM but the A feelings and emotions. While she is still going through that there is zero chance she will ever feel anything for me.

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