I totally agree your comment on the LBS being in limerence and I possibly am if you mean I have an infatuation of my W yes I do, that I have bonded with her and crystallised that, yes I have. That my R with my W has deteriorated no brainer.
Does this sound familiar... You're here also.
Limerence is how mother nature makes us animals populate the world that's all, we choose a mate and chemicals start to build that allows our attention to remain with him/her and build a dependency - phase 1. Moving on we then copulate and bring a new born animal into the world - phase 2, once this is completed we either continue or move on to another mate - phase 3!
This three-stage process has been proved look into PEAS and the chemical cocktail this process produces.
"The obsessive parts, the romanticizing of the other person, idealizing (OR negating them) the intense fear of rejection, the dependence, intrusive thoughts about the other person..." Is this all summed up as phase 1 - infatuation..?
"If your m was actually a good solid one and this still happened, I would have lower expectations of a recon." Based on what? I understand people will not leave something for something worse I wouldn't say it was perfect but if and when my WW does come out of limerence and starts to see the AP/LO's flaws (we all have them) do I not stand a better chance of R..?
Again working on myself for myself and showing her a friendly safe place to come to that is known to her can only be in my favour instead of moving from one $h1t R to another although this could happen.
Looking through my threads you will see I have identified areas where I could improve our R and am working on them.
Please understand I'm as much interested in what happens to the brain when the A starts as I am as to why these start, A's sneak up on you and it's too late (as anybody purchased the two books prior to an A?) Knowing why the WW acts the way she does you can gain an understanding and then implement your changes.
Hindsight is a great thing I never in a million years thought I'd be going through this who does! But I am now better equipped to handle it, limerence is real people it's proved medically and has to end how you choose to deal with your sitch is up to you.
I base mine on fact, and will continue with my beliefs -
She's on fantasy island with her AP/LO eventually reality will kick in and she'll want to get off, don't blow the final bridge up back to you and the family. Work on becoming the better option by making yourself the best you can possibly be (P.I.E.S attraction), a friendly place which is safe for her to come to in times of need. I don't mean sacrifice your DR'ing and all those things (I'm trying to instil these in my situation as well) I'm just giving myself a chance based on the limerence process as my original thread laid out.
I will look into the TED talk video thank you.
Regards
Mark.
DR'ing started March 2017
Don't blow the last bridge up from fantasy island, act "as if".
Mark, no one can doubt limerence and its effect in these affair relationships. My own H is in severe depression and abusing serontonin and dopamine meds. I watched him through the end stages of his first affair (which went on for 3 years before I knew about it and then dragged on another year after). They broke up 3 months after I kicked him out and they hit real life. They were sneaking around and off and on those first three years so I think the limerence kept going.
Then he cycled back toward home, I think got scared by it, and ran off and found a new OW2. He is quite narcissistic at this point and I think falls very quickly into limerence (he is a big future faker--I saw texts and emails to the first OW backing this up). How long will this limerence last? Perhaps another 3 months or 6, hard to say.
But, I think the chances are good he will just go off and find another OW and continue the cycle. He would rather get the PEAs high than deal with the depression that he is running from.
I think folks here are just concerned that you are putting too much faith in limerence and although you pay lip service to recognizing that there are multiple paths out of it (she marries the LO, she comes back to you, or she finds a new LO), you seem at times to presuppose that she is coming back.
You can make yourself as attractive as you want and even if you are the better catch, it doesn't mean she is going to come back. I tihnk the problem with your approach is that it is centered on becoming the better choice for her, rather than simply working on making yourself a better you for you.
Lots of people have tried to weigh in and you seem pretty set on your path. Please just keep in mind that these folks are not thinking clearly and even science can't guarantee the result we want to see. I hope your faith in the science yields a postive outcome for you.
As you know my original thread was about limerence and I find it interesting that once you gained an understanding of it's behaviours you began to get your life back into some kind of order. Can I ask a few questions..?
1.How long did it take you to realise? 2.Did your H do anything in aiding it's escalation? 3.Was the AP/LO the reason you came out of limerence? 4.What made you look into it?
How long did it take me to realize I was experiencing limerence? Hummmm, I would have to go back through my old threads......b/c it was ten years ago and I was still in some fog when I joined the board. I had the right experienced mentors who were giving me critical information. Somewhere in there I was told about limerence. I did follow up through google, and maybe it was my state of mind, ........but a decade ago, the information I read was not as layman-friendly as it appears now. However, I grasped enough to at least consider the possibility. Plus, it tied in to the feedback I had on the board.....and to my own emotions. All in all, it wasn't too much time until I decided to go NC with OM, cold turkey. And that experience made me a true believer about the addictive power an A can hold. I can't remember exactly, now. I know the first 4 weeks were hell. The first 4 months were hard withdrawals......and around 6 months it began to taper off some. But it would take about 2 years before I began to feel like I wanted to put effort into my MR.
The WW has to go through a process, which can be very agonizing and long, if she has years of resentment and disrespect, as was the case with me. Although similar behavior patterns, each woman is an individual story. Every woman had problems and issues in life that may have had no connection to her having an A........... and those problems are still there when the A ends........plus the destruction the A caused. The pre-affair and post-affair complexities often require guidance from a professional therapist, in order to piece their life back together......and certainly, piece the M.
I'm not sure what you mean in question #2. To try and give a shorter answer to #3 & #4, I have always needed at least one person I could talk to about problems. However, nobody in my world knew this woman I had become. I was not ready to reveal to my family or friends, b/c if they knew the truth, they would have been shocked! So, the need to talk to someone was getting stronger. One night I decided to reach out for guidance, and I sought a Christian chat room or forum (can't remember). I must have chose an off night, b/c I quickly moved on.......and saw something about divorce busting. Along with the information I was receiving, I began seeing a few cracks in the knight's armor. So, I think timing played a big part, at least for me.
I did the hard work. I am still with my H. I am still here, but not as a WW. A former WW, passing forward (I hope) the favor that was given to me.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
How long did it take me to realize I was experiencing limerence? Hummmm, I would have to go back through my old threads......b/c it was ten years ago and I was still in some fog when I joined the board. I had the right experienced mentors who were giving me critical information. Somewhere in there I was told about limerence. I did follow up through google, and maybe it was my state of mind, ........but a decade ago, the information I read was not as layman-friendly as it appears now. However, I grasped enough to at least consider the possibility. Plus, it tied in to the feedback I had on the board.....and to my own emotions. All in all, it wasn't too much time until I decided to go NC with OM, cold turkey. And that experience made me a true believer about the addictive power an A can hold. I can't remember exactly, now. I know the first 4 weeks were hell. The first 4 months were hard withdrawals......and around 6 months it began to taper off some. But it would take about 2 years before I began to feel like I wanted to put effort into my MR.
The WW has to go through a process, which can be very agonizing and long, if she has years of resentment and disrespect, as was the case with me. Although similar behavior patterns, each woman is an individual story. Every woman had problems and issues in life that may have had no connection to her having an A........... and those problems are still there when the A ends........plus the destruction the A caused. The pre-affair and post-affair complexities often require guidance from a professional therapist, in order to piece their life back together......and certainly, piece the M.
I'm not sure what you mean in question #2. To try and give a shorter answer to #3 & #4, I have always needed at least one person I could talk to about problems. However, nobody in my world knew this woman I had become. I was not ready to reveal to my family or friends, b/c if they knew the truth, they would have been shocked! So, the need to talk to someone was getting stronger. One night I decided to reach out for guidance, and I sought a Christian chat room or forum (can't remember). I must have chose an off night, b/c I quickly moved on.......and saw something about divorce busting. Along with the information I was receiving, I began seeing a few cracks in the knight's armor. So, I think timing played a big part, at least for me.
I did the hard work. I am still with my H. I am still here, but not as a WW. A former WW, passing forward (I hope) the favor that was given to me.
AND she had to decide it was time to change again. Just like the LBS has to decide that it is time for them to change their behaviors.
I totally agree your comment on the LBS being in limerence and I possibly am if you mean I have an infatuation of my W yes I do, that I have bonded with her and crystallised that, yes I have. That my R with my W has deteriorated no brainer. Does this sound familiar... You're here also. I am not now seeking a reconciliation, as DBing for me was a once in a lifetime deal.
I don't say that in anger, I say that in recognition of reality.
I was here 10 years ago obsessing about my h's possible MLC. I spent a solid year trying to figure out what he was doing/why/how he was feeling/thinking/planning.
A year I'll never get back, and during which I was not fully present for my kids. I was way too preoccupied. I regret this deeply.
In the 2nd year I put an internal timeline for my limbo and knew that when d1 graduated from HS, I'd be DONE. I began to seriously GAL and detach. Still have a PMA but was readying myself for life without h but with happiness.
Then We reconciled shortly before she finished high school & we stayed m for 10 years.
I know we recon b/c I came here and GAL and DB'd my rear end off.
But maybe, just maybe, I was wrong. (Maybe I should have really faced h's behavior for what it was, dishonest selfish and pretty crazy).
Or maybe my mistake was how we carried on after.
All I know is that while we reconciled, we did not piece well. H never got, nor did I emphasize the need for him to seek IC to face the wreckage he created and to gird himself for the long haul repair work he needed to do with our d's
a problem that bothers him to this day - and which is probably part of why we are divorcing now.
In fact, only a few months after reconciling (VICTORY!!! I'm done, right??)
h's mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer so we shelved the piecing part - assuming we would have done it right in the first place -
and we never got back to it. Piecing is, imo, the hardest part of these ordeals and yet few people get to do it. Many try, and end their m's.
I don't believe you have given any thought to piecing b/c you are solely focussed on getting your w back as if that is the end game. It's not. You seem to have algebraic formulas for something far less scientific than you believe. I understand the need to make sense of why your life has turned upside down. We get it.
It's about feeling such a loss of control of your life and future, that you cling to what seems like the best way or approach or method or research to manage this loss saying your beliefs are "based on fact...she is on fantasy island with LO"...
(as if those^^^ clauses are not oddly juxtaposed)
Mark, I'm concerned you are doing no preparation for the reality she may not return. You say you understand that she may not return and you sound as if you get that cognitively - but I'm not sure you have thought out what that means for YOU...your life.
if your w had died in a car crash (God forbid), and enough time had passed that you had grieved and after which you were mostly healed...
would you curl up in the fetal position? No.
I think you'd be the best dad to your kids that you could be and I think you'd model for them how to heal. You would show them What a strong man of honor does when faced with a blow to his heart, b/c they would be looking to you as their model...
so, imagine if you were in the situation where you were a recovered widower but you were happy in your new life
what would that^^^ look like? Details...would you change jobs? Move? Would you take up a new hobby, or learn a language or go back to school? I know you'd be a single dad for awhile, but what things would you do that you believe would help you be happy?
Volunteer, coach, JOIN/VISIT -
in other words, what would a happy life without your w, be like?
That's something I hope you'll spend some energy on. Because you can do some of those things, now. Paradoxically I happen to believe, strongly, that it is you being happy without her, genuinely,
that is most likely to attract her back anyhow... .
Limerence is how mother nature makes us animals populate the world that's all, we choose a mate and chemicals start to build that allows our attention to remain with him/her and build a dependency - phase 1. Moving on we then copulate and bring a new born animal into the world - phase 2, once this is completed we either continue or move on to another mate - phase 3! I'm very familiar with it, and with falling in love and keeping it going. My m was a long one. Mostly a happy one.
I also believe love is always at least partly a choice.
The way you describe limerence seems to equate it to love, and that makes me a bit sad. As if there is no spiritual element or moral compass or commitment, other than those based on biochemicals.
I think there may be more to your w's A than these chemicals and if you reduce it to that, you may miss a crucial lesson.
What are your w's love languages? And how do you give love?
This three-stage process has been proved look into PEAS and the chemical cocktail this process produces.
"The obsessive parts, the romanticizing of the other person, idealizing (OR negating them) the intense fear of rejection, the dependence, intrusive thoughts about the other person..." Is this all summed up as phase 1 - infatuation..? "If your m was actually a good solid one and this still happened, I would have lower expectations of a recon." Based on what?
based on the reality that if you were a short tempered idiot, you'd know what to work on to improve. If you were lazy or a sloth and she complained that you did not help her with the home or kids or have a job, you'd know exactly what to work on in YOU.
Can you see how that would be empowering to you?
Instead you say things were really good as if to say that she should just wake up and realize how great she had it. That mostly leaves it up to her to discover...
And That might happen...or she may miss the kids enough to return or she may fight for full custody ? Who knows?
But I've been here long enough to know that the LBSers who work on themselves by confronting their own roles in the crisis in the marriages, & work on self actualizing for themselves, are a lot happier down the road, no matter what.
That is why I believe the BEST news a MC can give someone is that they themselves have some work to do. it's a rare WAS who returns to the marriage they left, unless they believe the marriage will be different/better than before.
Right or wrong, it's up to the LBSer to show the WAS that they will 1) be fine without the WAS
but also 2) a lot better as a spouse in the repaired/restored m.
What is new about you? How are you showing her it would be better
and yet that you will be fine, regardless?
I understand people will not leave something for something worse I wouldn't say it was perfect but if and when my WW does come out of limerence and starts to see the AP/LO's flaws (we all have them) do I not stand a better chance of R..? I'd rather she see you as a man only a fool would leave.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
AND she had to decide it was time to change again. Just like the LBS has to decide that it is time for them to change their behaviors.
Thanks, Cadet, for pointing that out. Let me also add, and I hope this will help Parkema........for me, it started with a decision to "do the right thing". Well, let me back up just a little, and say it really started with me wanting to talk with someone who understood. I had really no desire to jump back into my MR with both feet. I thought I had no energy left. At the time, my feelings for my H had certainly not changed from negative back to positive. I really want the LBS to get what I am saying here. How many times have I read the threads of some H who desperately wants his W to end her affair........and when she finally does end it, he is hurt further b/c she does not immediately fall into his arms! It took time for her to fall out of love with her H (the feelings of being in love), and then she thought she was in love with OM, and then she ends that R and is expected to immediately feel in love with her H again? It doesn't work that way, from what I experienced and have studied. She has to go through a process. For me, it started with turning to help (and I got it here on the board) and then it was a matter of doing the right thing.....instead of doing what my emotions wanted. Let me tell ya, my process was long. Making the decision to do what is right is just the beginning for her. Until then, I see no way for a successful reconciliation. She could sit around for a lifetime, waiting for loving feelings to prompt her actions. And that can become a crutch for some waywards, by saying they have no feelings. For me, I had so many years of resentment that it worked as a roadblock to the right feelings, along with remorse and other issues I would need to resolve. Thus, the answer for why the process took me so long
Although I had not behaved accordingly, my moral and spiritual beliefs were still implanted deep within me. Personally, I don't think a wayward suffers much with feelings of guilt (at least not enough to change her direction) at the time of acting out in rebellion, b/c WW's have a sense of entitlement and self justification. Many LBH's want to think their WW feels guilt, but even if that's true.......the mindset of the wayward is going to trump guilty feelings, at least during the peak of the rebellion. When my H confronted me, I felt like the guilty kid who had been caught with her hand where it didn't belong. I mean, he had solid proof! I even cried! 24 hours later, I took the affair deeper underground.
She has to end all contact with OM. If she feels no remorse, it will come when she truly releases her resentment, entitlement, justification, and score keeping. If she continues to throw up the past, then she has not let go. I did not bring it up, I just held on to it. This is one of the areas that couples often need professional help while they try to heal.
Let me quickly clarify something about the WW feeling guilty during the upside of her affair. Her heart has hardened. It has become cold, especially toward her H and the naysayers. However, she knows right from wrong! Her attitude is, "I don't care if it's wrong, this is what I want". There was a song by Barbara Mandrell, "If Loving You is Wrong, then I Don't Want to be Right". Talk about a song of wayward attitudes!
Anyway, back to making a decision to do the right thing. Before I actually made that decision, I told one of my mentors that I felt as if I had stayed in my M for the sake of my children, and now was I suppose to sacrifice my last chance at happiness for the sake of my grandchildren.......was there no time that I could do something for my sake? Good lord, that embarrasses me, today. It shows the sheer selfish mindset of a wayward wife who saw herself as a victim of an unhappy MR. Although I don't often recommend MC for those who are wayward (b/c there are many who will encourage the wayward to divorce and to find what makes you happy), advice (good or bad) can reach the wayward. Many MC's encourage the H to pursue, have date nights, and that type of nonsense. This is waywardness we are talking about, and that kind of advice is not the type that 's needed. It's better if the timing is right and there is a therapist who understands the wayward mindset. What I mean by the timing being right, is that I had willingly come to the board, in search of help. I was at a crossroad, and wanted someone to tell me why I should stay in my M. I wanted more than dime store "stuff" that I had read for years. If you could have seen how many books I read over the years! Btw, before finding this forum, I had even went to a highly recommended counselor in my area. Upon hearing about my affair, she immediately told me I had done nothing wrong! What? Of course I had! I was wayward, but I had enough sense to know right from wrong. I never returned for a follow up session.
I had to make a decision. Would that decision be based on what I was feeling, or would it be based on what I knew was the "right thing to do"? In spite of my negative feelings, I chose to follow the moral and spiritual values that had been planted many years ago. I don't say this so someone will think I'm exceptional, I am trying in my own weak way to explain that we often need to make decisions that our emotions don't like, and that's just a fact of life.
As a WW, making that decision was one of the hardest things, b/c it meant I had to do follow the logical, smart, and best way, instead of the easiest. It took me about two years, after making that decision, to get to the place to start working on my MR. That doesn't sound encouraging, I'm sure. I went a long time before actually telling the board members, b/c I knew how discouraging it must sound to newcomers. But finally, after seeing so many who did not understand why the WW could not respond as well as the LBH wanted, I started telling them just how long it took me. That's not to say it will take every WW that long. Each WW takes a different span of time to process what is needed.
Limerence is dangerous, IMHO, b/c of the destruction one can cause while under the influence. Another thing I want to point out is that once she comes through the state of limerence, there is absolutely no guarantee that her feelings for you will return. However, in time, it is quite possible. In some cases, the WS will D and M during their time of limerence, only to realize later their mistake. By then, the former spouse has moved on with a new life. Karma can really be a b'tch.
I hope you don't get dizzy while reading this post. Sometimes I tend to jump around with my thoughts.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I just went through all 8 pages, so I feel inclined to respond. I think you've been somewhat unfairly beat up regarding detaching and GAL. I am impressed with what you've posted regarding not initiating contact with your WW.
But, it really doesn't sit well with me how accommodating you are for your WW. As I read it, her time with the kids is hers, but your time with the kids is partly hers too. She gets to play house with OM at their house, and with you at yours. On top of that, she gets to pull you aside and chat whenever she wants, AND she gets to give you dating restrictions??
I wish Sandi2 would of expanded on what triggered her to want to do the right thing.. She mentioned getting caught, then going deeper underground. But if memory serves me, she got miserable hiding it, wanted to meet OM in person and threatened her H she was going to move out, and her H said do what you want, but don't think you'll ever come back.
She then had to make a choice, go and be with her affair partner and live happily ever after (what it seems like in the WW mind), or stay in M with H she resented for years.. But I think the key was, she had to make a choice, she knew she was gonna lose him and the M if she went.
Your W has never been faced with that choice, she got to keep her life (house minus H), gained the OM in that life, and practically got a key to your place. Her H is there whenever she wants, she's told her H not to date, and she truly has a good thing going. I don't think I'd complain if I was in her shoes.
I would never advocate keeping kids away, but I really don't think it's healthy for them to have family time with mommy and OM, and then having family time with mommy and daddy... That may have lasting affects on their understanding of what a healthy relationship is.
M - 9 1/2 years 5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA 10/31/16 - We sold house 01/10/18 - D Finalized
In what universe is that any of her business, given the givens?
I missed that.
Hope you had a good Father's Day, Park
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
