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TO:

I think you are trying to guilt him with the kids and needing help because you can't let go despite what you say (I don't doubt that you need the help, but you are trying to control what it looks like). He left. He doesn't want to be with you. He wants space from you. You are not respecting that. You are digging this hole deeper and deeper.

Instead of asking him to come to your home to watch the kids, he should be doing what most of the fathers on this board do and take the children with him a few nights a week. Then you can do what you need to do. He can have his space. He can bond with his children. And they can bond with him.

Again, like Zues says, stop trying to control everything. You are not going to guilt him back and you are not going to force him back. Let him go.

Get help with the child care you can and make sure you get the financial resources that you are entitled to under the law. Then leave him alone. When things calm down, think about the comments he's made, own what is yours and clean it up, and then move on with your life.

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I am so angry at your husband right now...

His behavior is mentally abusive, what kind of father/husband would rather party than caring to his own children when he know that his wife is in need of help.

Make sure to document his actions and his words, you will need those proofs in case of a divorce or a separation to show his lies.

Don't answer any more message/email from that woman, obviously she is deeply emotionally involved with him and is not a friend but rather an enemy of your marriage.

Accept the help of your family and friends, you need it, we are not super humans and it seems that you are getting burned out. You are now the only sane parent left for your children.

The more you will try to pursue him, the further he will go away and the angrier he will be.

I totally understand how badly you want him to be present and responsible for his own children but sadly he is infatuated with someone and limerence took over. Nothing you can say or do will make him change his behavior. The only resource you have right now is to detach from him, I know it's heart wrenching specially with a newborn. When you detach you are protecting yourself, stopping/decreasing fights and de facto removing any more causes he can make up to justify his behavior by blaming you. Right now, he is very aggressive toward you because he needs to find excuses to justify his actions, he knows deep down that people will judge him down the road so he needs to create a story to validate his decisions.

You did nothing to deserve to be treated that way, you are not the cause of his behavior. Step back, let him deal with his issues. The thread on detachment is excellent, please for your own sanity read it. I know how you feel I went though that nightmare, it was hell at home when the OW1 started to push him to ask for a divorce.


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TO, I'm not minimalizing the amount of work your having to do... But I would of given anything to walk away from my M with my step son, dogs, and any other responsibilities that existed in our M..

Instead, because he was my step son, and I had no legal rights, I gave her everything cause I didn't want him to go without. Sure, I took the things that were strictly mine, grills, tools, etc., but I literally left with 1 pan, 1 bowel, 1 plate, 1 fork, spoon and knife. I moved into a shell of an apt, and our life just moved to her new apt., everything except me.

I know it's tough to raise children, but you get to raise them, and enjoy everything that comes along with that. Be strong, be there, be thankful.


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
10/31/16 - We sold house
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Quote:
His behavior is mentally abusive, what kind of father/husband would rather party than caring to his own children when he know that his wife is in need of help.


This is indeed horrible behavior. And I don't think you'll find anyone more opposed to walking out on a marriage on these forums than me.

I think that making big conclusions about him as a father is a bit too soon. If in 1, 3, 5, and 10 years he is still prioritizing his social life in front of his kids, then yes, I think it's safe to say he is a negligent father. But this is so fresh I see his avoidance as nothing more than him running away to try to get space. The more he feels T0 tugging the leash the further he is running. This doesn't excuse the behavior, I am just clarifying that this is a very small sample size and it could be a symptom of their domestic issues and not a reflection of what type of dad he'll be for the kids in the long term. The kids deserve a father so the kindest thing for them to do is ease up on the anger and judgment, understand that he's a bit out of control like now like a child throwing a tantrum, let the dust settle, and keep a smooth road home for him to his children if nothing else.

I have no problem documenting facts, but I wouldn't be doing it with an escalated mindset. There's a balance between protecting yourself and your children and preparing to go to war. For me personally I didn't want my kids growing up in a household where their parents were battling in court, and to me that was worth letting go of a lot of small stuff. Big stuff I get, and it's worth being prepared. But it's like buying a handgun for protection. Keep it unloaded and locked up, don't get it locked and loaded with an itchy trigger finger looking for a reason.

In all, before anything becomes clear the dust needs to settle, then some time needs to pass. T0 can't control him and doing so only stirs the dust up again, but if she calms down and stops thrashing around then little by little it will settle. Because like WAH, T0 is pretty escalated and isn't at her best either. I don't agree with some of some of her actions, but I don't think of her as an angry woman, she is simply going through hell right now and it's hard for anyone to cope.

My DB coach told me these things. She said "Let the dust settle". She also told me I could tell WAW "We are making choices that will permanently impact the future of our family. It makes sense to be at our best when we make those choices and I don't think either of us can say that right now. Would it make sense to slow things down a little until we feel we're on our best game?"

Ironically, as much as I loathe WAH for walking away, he was the one that was saying he wanted space and he wanted time, and T0 kept pushing and escalating. And REGARDLESS of what WAH is saying at this moment, when she starts giving him space and time and taking care of her side of the sandbox, I think WAH will change his behavior. It might not be on the timelines T0 wants or needs. It might not be enough for her to look in his direction again. It might not be enough for him to want to return. Who knows? But that's just it. The future is uncertain. We can't control it, we just do our part to give God a chance to work a miracle. If nothing else we can feel good when we look in the mirror and take some satisfaction in the road we walk.

Get some rest this weekend when you can T0. We all have our own beliefs, but we are all in your corner and wishing you the absolute best.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
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What Zues ^^^ said. Let the dust settle! I literally want you to download one of those free meditation apps so you can take 10 minutes a day to focus on one thing, like releasing anxiety or breathing.
I'm not a gimmicky person, but it has helped me more than I expected. Like this morning at 5am...

Okay, though I'm loathe to bring up the topic of that hideous woman texting you,

I have to say her over reaching & lack of boundaries is breathtaking. And cruel.
Block her texts. What can she possibly say of value or comfort to you?

(Has she given birth? If not, it shows.) I know this crap is on your h, But there are times my own gender shames me.

Back to You -

carry on T0, you'll get through this. The pain you feel right now - WILL NOT LAST forever.
And we are here for you.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
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DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Trying to figure out how to let go of seeing him as who he was vs who he is now

My dad said he was leaving all along. Ever since he bought the flowers for the girl and the motorcycle purchase. Everyone wants me to say F off to him and move on with my life but I dont want to I don't know how.

I feel so sad thinking of looking at my life divorced. Of this baby growing up not knowing us together.

I need to figure out how to stop being sad about that.

I know I need to leave him be and stop hair g expectations of him. But at the same time last time he left he lived the good life and never saw the kids except on his own time table and wasn't accountable for any type of schedule.

I need him to find his way back. I don't want to continue doing this alone. I'm just having a sad moment about this. He's at the concert we have gone to together for our last 3 anniversaries. How can he not remember the good times we had when we went there together.

And Zues - when can I say that about letting the dust settle? It's how I feel. Ow is not the time to be making permanent decisions... there is too much going on with the baby school work and all this stress... let cooler heads prevail. There are too many raw emotions. His mom told him that. He said he knew his decision was made and that it was over and done. Nothing would change his mind.


M 31 H 34
S 6 S 9
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T384 #2747248 06/17/17 01:27 PM
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Quote:
And Zues - when can I say that about letting the dust settle? It's how I feel. Ow is not the time to be making permanent decisions... there is too much going on with the baby school work and all this stress... let cooler heads prevail. There are too many raw emotions. His mom told him that. He said he knew his decision was made and that it was over and done. Nothing would change his mind.


Sorry for the confusion. You don't say anything to H about this.

In my case it was a bit different when my Divorce Coach told me I could say that bit about slowing things down. XW and I were in communication, she was showing signs of regret and confliction. In your case there is no such opening at this moment.

Besides, there are words and there are actions. And actions speak way, way, way, way, way, way, waaaaaaaaaaay louder than words.

So many times I've seen an LBS tell his WAS that he understands how she feels and respects her request for some distance, when the very action of having a conversation about the relationship is just emotionally clingy showing that they actually AREN'T understanding or respecting anything.

In your case, the best thing to do is let the dust settle on your end. With your actions. And I think your actions are a lack of words.

I'm not saying total no contact. If he asks how the kids are, they are safe and cozy. If he asks if he can come see him, you work out that arrangement. If he throws harsh words at you then you can validate and say you can understand how he'd feel that way, and there are many things you'd do differently if you could do them again.

We get it. You are in immense pain, and you wouldn't be if only WAH would change x/y/z behavior, so therefor your only path out of pain is for you to change his behavior, and surely if he could just realize how much you hurt and how hurtful his behavior is and have him understand what kind of monster this makes him he'd make a different choice, right?

But no, because the thing is that he is also in immense pain, and if you could understand how much he hurt and how hurtful your behavior has been to him then you surely would make different choices as well, such as to stop lashing at him when he's curled up in a ball begging you to stop (he feels your judgments as beatings and is running away from them, because he actually cares a lot what you think. He's not leaving because he doesn't care, he's leaving because he does and can't take the pain of you looking so venomously at him).

So no initialing R talks. No explaining. No judging. No telling him what he should be doing. No telling him what kind of a man or father this makes him. No telling him that if he takes another step away you're done with him for good.

Just let him go. You can punch a pillow, talk to a friend, post here, or shoot some pool. Whatever. But 30 days without kicking up your own dust.

There were two thoughts that got me through.

One was that if I couldn't do it, how could I expect them to? I had to lead, and act with the character I wished WAS had.

The other was that if I looked at the life God had given me, with my children laughing and healthy, my employment challenging and rewarding, my hobbies, my friends, my family, good books to read, air conditioning in my car, good music to listen to, and so on, if I looked at all of this and still turned to the sky shaking my fist at God saying "This isn't enough, without the marriage I want the way I expect it to be right now then all of this is garbage and I can't possibly be happy with anything, you really stink God", if I was truly THAT ungrateful...well, I realized that if I was that miserable then having one flawed woman back in my life couldn't possibly save me from my misery.

Life is not about getting what you want, it's about wanting what you get. We all have things we desire we don't get, but we also have things that can fulfill us if we focus on appreciation for what we have.

Not saying you're not entitled to grieve your loss and honor your pain. I'm simply sharing what got me through. In fact, I've never been more fulfilled in my life. Not because divorce is a positive thing. But because it was so, so, so utterly devastating to me that it FORCED me to finally let go and stopped trying to control my life so I could have everything I thought I wanted to be happy. I was forced to learn to just be happy even though a lot of things stunk.

One last thing I am reminded of was the time when my son was 9 just before bomb drop. He was throwing a tremendous fit, breaking things, trying to hit his mom. Well, we had a sliding back door that had a protected plastic layer on it because we had dogs we would put in the back yard and didn't want them scratching it up. Point is the glass sliding door was pretty solid. It was super cold in MN at the time, like 0 degrees and some wind. I picked my son up, carried him out the back door kicking and screaming, then shut the sliding door and locked it. He was in a t-shirt and shorts. It was so cold every second must have felt painful. Every single second. I told him he could come back in when he calmed down. XW was screaming at me to let him in, that he'd get frost bit or sick or whatever, but I wouldn't let her let him back in. I told her that if he was REALLY cold he'd calm down. My son kept screaming and screaming and screaming and banging the door and banging, and I kept repeating in loud calm tones that when he stopped screaming he could come back inside.

Want to guess how long it took him to calm down? Probably around 30-40 seconds. At some point the pain of the cold overcame his rage and he shifted his priorities and behavior. Of course XW used this incident to prove I was abusive. But personally I thought it was just exactly perfect.

I know you will get there too. You are still in this cycle. As long as you think changing H will stop the pain you'll keep trying to go that route. At some point when you've suffered enough you'll let go.

Until then I want to continue to wish you moments of peace and faith that it will pass and get better.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
T384 #2747250 06/17/17 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: T0324
I'm
Trying to figure out how to let go of seeing him as who he was vs who he is now

YES^^ ^this is among the hardest parts for those of us who once had a good m. I get it.

Not sure how to "do it" but to say that where the head goes, the heart will follow. I have had moments where I wrote what I thought would be a brief summary (a 1 page) letter to h just trying to express my disappointment & surprise at his hideous treatment of me and our kids - with the obvious idea that I'd never send it.

But the letter got longer & Longer and then spiraled into a really long list of things.

So I narrowed it down to 2-3 things I really felt were deal breakers or close to it. I found, when I was objective, 3+ things (of recent origin) that were deal breakers.

I can't say why I didn't immediately file when they happened, but I didn't.

When I miss the h he once was, I look at the few deal breakers - without going into my whole rage inducing grievance list.

And I read again, something I wrote here in 2006. "If h puts me thru this ordeal again or if there's an OW, I will walk away and not look back."


Not looking back is much much harder than I thought it would be. But sometimes reading that promise to myself, does clarify things.

what did you tell yourself back in round one, if this or anything like it, happened again?

Maybe you need to remember what you told yourself then, to do it now.



My dad said he was leaving all along. Ever since he bought the flowers for the girl and the motorcycle purchase. Everyone wants me to say F off to him and move on with my life but I dont want to I don't know how.


I'm not sure any of this^^ "advice" helps you at all. I don't care for it when people tell me things that make me doubt more of the past and feel more like a fool.

What is the usefulness of retroactive pain when you have enough today already?


I feel so sad thinking of looking at my life divorced. Of this baby growing up not knowing us together.


What IS NOW, is not what you'd want your baby to see. But You have a loss, no doubt. You'll recover but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.


I need to figure out how to stop being sad about that.


Let me know when you figure it out. Otherwise I believe it takes time And effort. More effort than you will "feel" like making at times.

I feel better than I did even one month ago, and I sure feel better than I did in January.



I know I need to leave him be and stop hair g expectations of him. But at the same time last time he left he lived the good life and never saw the kids except on his own time table and wasn't accountable for any type of schedule.


but, so what? I mean, what difference does that make today? Plus this^^ is all about HIM. Where are you in this?


I need him to find his way back. I don't want to continue doing this alone. I'm just having a sad moment about this. He's at the concert we have gone to together for our last 3 anniversaries. How can he not remember the good times we had when we went there together.


he's fleeing pain and conflict at home at the moment, that's how. The more he's home the worse he feels. So he's running.

Don't chase or plead or criticize or try to guilt him, b/c I've never really seen anyone shamed into going home and staying.

His behavior speaks for itself and for now, just back off. Stop trying to manage the outcome of something way out of your control.

It makes you spin and you must stop the spinning.



And Zues - when can I say that about letting the dust settle? It's how I feel.


You must control your emotions and not act on them or blurt things out b/c that's how you feel.

Can you see the double standard here? You expect your h to restrain himself & not decide anything or say he's "Done" or act on how he feels, but you don't seem able to impose that standard on yourself...


there is too much going on with the baby school work and all this stress... let cooler heads prevail. There are too many raw emotions.


that is what we are saying^^^. I totally agree. So back off.

See a L & listen to them, so you & the boys are not damaged.

Maybe you can stop asking your parents for their interpretation of your h's feelings from the past and deal with the now.




His mom told him that. He said he knew his decision was made and that it was over and done. Nothing would change his mind.


So this ^^ is how he feels now. And he's behaved in ways you said, repeatedly, were deal breakers for you.

I am not saying you are being "contractually obligated" to enforce your deal breaker boundaries, but at least ask yourself this:

*"Am I letting my h cross my boundaries b/c I'm very sad and very afraid -

OR b/c I genuinely want to move the goal post back, & not have that boundary?"*



M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Just. A quick post and I'll get back to both of you guys.


Zues - you say he is in immense pain and he cannot look at me judging him. Do you truly believe that because I'm not so sure I do. I haven't told him I'm done. I've never used those words to him. Actually quite the opposite... I said we want him here we appreciate him and we don't want to go through this again. It was terrible and painful last time and we don't want to go on that ride.

He still chose to leave. Also, how is he hurting when he's partying st a concert. Whavent heard from him at all besides when I text him if he wanted to stop by the kids were at my moms before he left... other than that nothing.

How is he hurting if he's seeing someone else and emotionally attached himself to her.

I'm sorry I'm just not sure I see it that way. I poured my heart out to him over the last three months. I kissed him made him lunch was sweet and loving the ONLY thing I did was about once every week or two say so what's going on with us. And it wasn't yelling or screaming matches it was me saying I don't understand how you don't know if you want to be in this M. What do you need from me to make that decision. What do you need to be happy. He could never answer.

Again - not trying to be negative I just don't know. The more I think about it is maybe he just cannot be the man I need him to and the man he was wasn't really him but THIS man he is now is who he is. I just don't know. I don't understand how he lies about everything. It's quite scary. Because I don't think he even knows how to tell the truth anymore. He lies about what time he goes to work. And he voluntary offers this information to me. It's not like I have asked him any questions since he left. I'm questioning my entire M. Who I've been sleeping next to. Hell im questioning if he was even honest when he came back after last time.

The thing is if you dislike me FINE ... but we do have a one month old. I feel so disrespected and angry for my children. How hard is it to send a text checking on them.

And what possibly could he be telling everyone at work that he left his family with a newborn baby. I just don't get it. I don't... we made this baby together and i can't imagine just walking out and not giving a [censored] about not helping care for him. And our older boys. To not even text them or anything. Just sad.


M 31 H 34
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BD 2/14 Piecing 8/14
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Originally Posted By: T0324

Zues - you say he is in immense pain and he cannot look at me judging him. Do you truly believe that because I'm not so sure I do. I haven't told him I'm done. I've never used those words to him. Actually quite the opposite... I said we want him here we appreciate him and we don't want to go through this again. It was terrible and painful last time and we don't want to go on that ride.

He still chose to leave. Also, how is he hurting when he's partying st a concert. Whavent heard from him at all besides when I text him if he wanted to stop by the kids were at my moms before he left... other than that nothing.

How is he hurting if he's seeing someone else and emotionally attached himself to her.

I'm sorry I'm just not sure I see it that way. I poured my heart out to him over the last three months. I kissed him made him lunch was sweet and loving the ONLY thing I did was about once every week or two say so what's going on with us. And it wasn't yelling or screaming matches it was me saying I don't understand how you don't know if you want to be in this M. What do you need from me to make that decision. What do you need to be happy. He could never answer.

Again - not trying to be negative I just don't know. The more I think about it is maybe he just cannot be the man I need him to and the man he was wasn't really him but THIS man he is now is who he is. I just don't know. I don't understand how he lies about everything. It's quite scary. Because I don't think he even knows how to tell the truth anymore. He lies about what time he goes to work. And he voluntary offers this information to me. It's not like I have asked him any questions since he left. I'm questioning my entire M. Who I've been sleeping next to. Hell im questioning if he was even honest when he came back after last time.

The thing is if you dislike me FINE ... but we do have a one month old. I feel so disrespected and angry for my children. How hard is it to send a text checking on them.

And what possibly could he be telling everyone at work that he left his family with a newborn baby. I just don't get it. I don't... we made this baby together and i can't imagine just walking out and not giving a [censored] about not helping care for him. And our older boys. To not even text them or anything. Just sad.


You two both have a lot in common. You both love each other. You are both in a lot of pain. And you are both totally stuck in your own view points and think the other person is the problem. And you both seem to think you can't do this anymore and are totally surprised when the other person doesn't change first.

How can WAH be doing what he is doing? Medication.

As for how you've managed your side of the road the last few months, I am confident that you did your best at the time, but there is clearly a huge disconnect.

Look at it this way- somewhere in your behavior from the last 90 days your H has felt emotionally beaten by resentment and judgment. He has told you that repeatedly in every way he possibly can. The message I have heard is "T0, I love you and want nothing more than to be the H you want and be by your side, but it's impossible for me to do that when I feel constantly attacked by suspicion and disapproval". Yet you look back at your same behavior and justify it and say you have been loving and warm and you don't get why he had to leave.

I have followed your posts over the last patch, 60, 90, 120 days. I have seen what your H is talking about. I am not excusing his behavior. I am not agreeing with his decision to walk. I don't. And I understand exactly how hurtful that is. I have also seen the pain he has caused you over the last patch. All I am saying is that even through your posts and your voice which may not be totally objective, I've still seen enough to where I understand how your H could feel the way he feels. Even today every post is disapproval, disapproval, disapproval, but of course how could you feel any other way based on what HE'S doing...it just doesn't stop. Nowhere do you see yourself causing H pain and him bucking like a wild animal trying to get away from a burning brand of anger and disapproval. All you see is the animal bucking.

You may not see it that way, but the problem with the way you see it is that if you continue to see it that way you'll have a heck of a story for your children about why you and their dad didn't stay together. You can explain to us, your friends, your family, and anyone else that will listen about how unreasonable he was and what a bad guy he was. OR, you can reread your last 90 days of posts and highlight everything you did and said that triggered his "You'll never accept me again" reaction and put it all on a big masterlist and read it every day until you have an AHA moment and see what it is that you're doing that is hurting him, then stop it. You may not feel those actions should hurt him. You may feel they were totally reasonable things for you to do. You may feel they are nothing compared to what he's done to you, and that the scorekeeper is showing that he's done much worse. But the bottom line is you have hurt him and continued to act in a way he felt he couldn't live with. You either get a story about how your H wasn't good enough or you get a marriage.

T0, I don't think you should fight for your marriage today in terms of actions or anything like that. I don't think H is coming back today nor am I saying you should take him back if he did. I think it would be foolish to jump into something when the cycle hasn't been broken, it would just be a rerun. I think you need to take care of yourself and let some of this go for a little while. But I mentioned not making big decisions when you're not at your best. I think your vision is a little tunneled right now. Might be a good idea not to trust your thoughts and feelings too much right now. They are real, but that doesn't mean they are the healthiest way to steer your ship right now. Just get through the days when you are at your worst. When you are really at your best then reread your old posts and see what you can learn. Hang in and take care.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
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