On Higher Ground

[job]

Congratulations on your son's graduation! It's a big transition from 8th grade to high school in the fall.

As for your h, many of them get the self help books and read a couple of pages or just let them sit on the night stand and collect dust. Some pick up the bible and begin reading it and then talk about it quiet often. It's all part of the journey and I do hope he does read the books and figures things out for himself.

[Gordie]

Interesting re meditation and self help books as my w has been reading a lot along those lines too. I never ask her about these books and what she thinks. Do you? Glad you were able to enjoy 8th grade graduation together. You are an amazingly patient woman.

[mleigh4]

Congrats to your S graduation! Can you believe he is heading to high school? It goes so fast.

Interesting about the books. I hope he reads them and takes something away from it.

M

[BrightFuture]

HaWho, congratulations on your son's graduation! I hope the transition to high school will go smoothly for him. It is probably another important event in your H's MLC journey. Will see how well he will be able to handle it, having a son in high school.

There are definitely some interesting developments with your H. And he wants you to come on the trip... I agree with roist, do what is best for you, whether you decide to go on the trip or not.

There are some small "development" in my sitch, in regards to H doing different things compared to the previous years. But, I think I'm somewhat removed from the whole thing by now, so I don't really pay much attention. Maybe I should, ha.

You keep amaze me with your patience and insights into your H's behavior. Take care of yoursef!

[HaWho]

Thanks Ownit, Job, Gordie, Mleigh and Bright. And no Gordie, I don't ask about the self help books.

Happy Father's Day to all you fellas!

Well, a simple financial question somehow led into a temp. read conversation. At dinner I asked h a fairly simple factual financial question. He told me let's discuss it later.

After dinner he led me up to the master bedroom and then answered the question. He opened up a few of our accounts and we discussed a few things. Then he went downstairs to the stinky room to find something. A few minutes later I went down and told him not to worry about it tonight as it's Father's Day.

He asked me a few follow up questions about work. I answered and he asked me to sit down. What proceeded was a sort of r talk. Unfortunately, it was just as bizarre as all the others have been. Seems to most resemble the conversation he gave at BD #2.

He told me not to meddle in his affairs and he won't meddle in mine. He told me I can go out on weekends and do whatever. So I said "so this is an open marriage?" His answer seemed to most resemble "don't ask, don't tell." He was cagey. I looked him square in the eye and reminded him that 3 years ago he promised me he would let me know before anything happened as that would be the decent thing to do. He didn't seem to remember though and I laid it all out for him again. He said "I am here" and later on that he had "nothing to report." Of course this was peppered with lots of "I don't ask you, so don't ask me." He was very secretive in general; nothing was transparent. It was like he was coached by Johnnie Cochran.

He told me if I met a guy he would move out. He was emotionless.

So, as Job advised, I asked if he was happy. He said no, of course not. He said he was almost 50 and living in a dorm room. So I asked what his plan was for the next year. He said he would continue to live in the dorm room as long as he could take it and that he didn't want to leave the kids and even me; he said he didn't want to leave what he had built. But then he said if I met a man or I needed him to move out he'd move out to down the street.

He told me he wanted to be friends. That is all he wanted, no more.

At one point he mentioned that he would never screw me financially and asked if I knew that. I was honest and said that after these last 3 years there was not much I knew about him anymore. I told him that was a conversation for another day. He said we are basically strangers to each other. I said he has done things these last 3 years I did not believe him capable of doing.

It was a calm and quiet conversation.

At one point he said he knew I was trying to have a big romantic talk. I cut him off and said I certainly did not intend for this conversation to happen and I categorically told him I had no interest in a romantic talk. I told him I'd had enough of these conversations these last 3 years. He said we'd hardly had any. (Still too many for my liking, though I did not say so.) Plus, it seems he is done so what more is there to say? I mean, how times and how many ways can you listen to someone say he is done with you? It's like death by paper cuts.

He does not seem to feel anything for me. He told me several times he will not ask what I am doing in my private affairs. He told me I can go out on weekend nights. (That what he said at BD 2; that I could sleep around.) He told me he'd move out if I met someone but he'd just move down the street.

Otherwise it seems his plan is to stick to the stinky room. And as I left I thought: he hasn't moved an inch. Ants cover more distance.

[OwnIt]

I'm so sorry. I imagine this was very painful to hear. I asked my H what we were doing about our situation after making him mad and knew exactly what he was going to say, wanted him to say it, but it still was a crushing blow when he said we should get started on the divorce.

I think we watch them and we see these signs that seem to point ot some kind of movement and then we are disappointed when they aren't. Yours sounds so much like he is in the throws of overt depression and I would think the things he says are even more unreliable.

I know when my H told me he didn't love me anymore I thought, of course not, you are scr**ing some other woman and spending all of your time talking to her and none of it near me or with me. How could you possibly have any feelings for me.

Yours sits in his smelly room isolated from the world and seems surprised that he can't emotionally relate to anyone. That alone is a sign of his problem.

Kudos to you for remaining calm. I think you know you can't trust what he says and you just have to keep plugging forward.

[Gordie]

Hugs to you HaWho! Death by a thousand paper cuts, yeah that about sums it up. I was waiting for you to throw in a how are those self help books (just kidding). My attempt at humor comes from knowing how awful and painful that conversation must have been.

"You have done things these past three years I didn't know you were capable of doing" - that is a strong and true and matter of fact statement, bravo!

So what do you want for you and your children? Your H talks a lot more about this fantasy life than actually living it. I'm not sure if that is good or bad. How long one can live in this type of situation, only you know.

[job]

HaWho,

I am sorry that this conversation came up, but at least you now know that he's not moved one inch in the mental department from years ago. You handled the conversation very well and pointed out a few things to him.

What I find interesting is that he wants to play the martyr if you find someone. He is more than willing to fall on his sword and do the right thing, i.e., move out if you meet someone. He is still hoping that you will make the decision about the marriage. He doesn't want to be the bad guy and leave on his own. It's all about perception and he's waiting on you to make the decision for him.

HaWho, you need to take some time this summer and reflect. There's no way to predict what the future will bring, but you need to think about the present and how his behavior may be affecting not only you, but your sons. There is no guarantee that he'll recover unless he seeks professional help in the way of AD's and therapy and even then, he may not recover.

Take it slowly, don't make any rash decisions at this time...you've got plenty of time to decide what it is you want for yourself and your sons. Maybe him moving out might be the best thing for all of you. Living in the dorm room may be keeping him safe and he needs to be like the little bird and attempt to fly from the nest. He'll never know what the outside world is like, at his age, if he doesn't get out there and explore it. I think he'll find that he had it good at home w/you and his family. However, that's my .02 for the day.

[roist]

Hawho

I am sure you must be a little disappointed with how that went, not because you expected more, but because you hoped his fog was lifting or at least dispersing partially. I don't have job's experience but I will point out one of the key mantras drilled into us on this forum: believe none of what he says.

There have been so many little improvements that I do believe deep down he has changed. It is also possible that he isn't really aware of what his current thinking is. When depressed the brain is fuzzy and clear thinking is next to impossible.

I have never had a real bomb drop or ILYB conversation but this one appears half hearted. He is unhappy but not enough to leave you. Depending on how you chose to look at it, that can be a good or a terrible thing.

It is good because he is relatively stable and not planning on leaving.So you have time. It is terrible because the current situation is likely to last for a good while yet.

I am sure you can handle this situation for as long as you decide to. Despite being capable of doing so, you may choose not to. You don't have to decide that now though.

I really like the way you were able to tell him some home truths.I also liked that you let him know that you were not seeking a R talk or R anything else. It will do him no harm to know you are not waiting for him. Although not strictly in accordance with job's great advice, I may have told him that you finding someone may not be the reason he could have to move out.

I think he is trying to feel better by giving you permission to go out at weekends and he'll move out if you find someone. I suspect it is only words but why not get away for a weekend anyway. Why not an evening during the week too. Be a rebel going without permission!!!Haha.

Your H did not come across to me as someone hiding an affair.He seemed more like a ten year old trying to keep face when questioned by a parent. He reminded me of my son who could not think of a good answer so stays vague.

All and all did it feel good to let out some of your thoughts?

[AndrewP]

I think he is trying to feel better by giving you permission to go out at weekends and he'll move out if you find someone.

I was told "go find someone else" a number of times just before BD. From my point of view (and none of us can really know anything for sure) perhaps he's looking for permission, not giving it. Didn't he start off with a fantasy of girls on beaches throwing themselves at him?

Again, we can't know for sure - but to me and from my guy perspective and not having all the facts - he sounds like someone who is feeling trapped and is now looking for a way out of the trap.