So I guess what all my posts are saying is that I say I am detaching but I am actually not. I also feel guilty about what I didn't provide her during our decade together even though I always thought I put her first.
So I guess what all my posts are saying is that I say I am detaching but I am actually not. I also feel guilty about what I didn't provide her during our decade together even though I always thought I put her first.
Hello Tobias,
You are absolutely right, you are not detaching.
Your wife is cake eating. She is getting her needs met with OM while keeping you around as plan B in case things don't work out with OM. She will continue to do this as long as you allow it. You won't be able to change her behavior, but you can certainly change yours.
The best advice I can give you is to call a Divorce Busting Coach today. Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best advice on how to save your marriage and get things moving in a more positive direction. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004
Cristy Resource Coordinator The Divorce Busting Center 303-444-7004
A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.
Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
Ever since we met she has dealt with depression and suicidal thoughts. She had some medication but after two years when we left the state we met in she stopped having access to them. My flaws have probably escalated conflicts because it always came out of it nothing and so many times she said she just wanted to kill herself and that she is no good and how she shouldn't be alive. I told her she needs to see someone but never pushed it. It seemed we would always heal. But of course because my flaws she kept perhaps being dragged into this state. Ever since she became more serious with OM she has become even more erratic and she has become even more scared when I even seem to fall back into old patterns which as I wrote happened the other day.
But she IS depressed and her behavior is erratic. I sort of joked about that the other day without using the term erratic but she got so angry. But now she is just sitting there in tears not knowing what to do. I asked her what she loves about herself and she said she couldn't even think of anything.
So my HUGE mistake the other day was letting on that I was hurt by her actions even though we were spending a bit more time together. And of course the way she describes OM is text book what happens when you're depressed. I don't know if the depression was because of me but like I said it has been there from the start. Now maybe it became more heinous to her because she feels trapped and isolated.
I no longer want to work on our relationship before she addresses her depression with some serious help. If it means when she does that she realizes we should have never become serious so be it. I want her to feel better.
She is exhausted. She was going to hang out with OM based on what she said on Sunday which I guess made me a little weak and I addressed erratic behavior because she was still feeling sick. But I was shocked when she just went to her bedroom (I hate saying that, but I have to treat it as if we are not married) and was just sad.
I know with depression people sometimes need to hit rock bottom but I am worried that if she moves out she is going to do something crazy. I know I cannot stop that. But it seems she needs help.
This morning I went to her bedroom and I hugged her before she woke up. She said what's up in a friendly tone and I said I just wanted to hug her before I started the day because it seems she is in a dark place (she said uh huh) and that she is good enough and that I hope she doesn't let the darkness destroy the beautiful person inside of her. She said okay almost relieved.
So yeah what I have is a jackpot of marital challenges: my skills were lacking, she deals with depression (unmedicated and undiagnosed right now) and it got so far that she sought out first an EA and later a PA. I was following the rules and we got a little closer I was happy to take it slow but then I uncovered the affair, we became closer at a more rapid rate and of course she kept making erratic choices which instead of me realizing wait maybe she IS depressed (something I felt from the start a month ago) based on her actions and instead I passive aggressively made a comment. Now she moved from opening up to closing down again. But my plan is to GAL, detach but also do random acts of kindness to help the depression. I am doing that as her friend. It hurts. But there is no second marriage with her unless the depression is addressed. It will only collapse again down the road because marriage is never perfect.
Well I have nothing left but to detach and GAL... she basically said she doesn't know what she wants and it is obvious she is forcing herself to feel which lead to a rollercoaster of emotions and the more I am waiting to hug her the more harm it causes.
She seems to focus a lot on me discovering the PA and claims she was on the way out (I suspect that is a lie but her actions did sort of start getting closer to me).
She also was upset I told some friends when I was hurting and I overreacted on her lack of remorse... it's those damn impulses I cannot control. But even though those friends have said they love us both she thinks I am talking bad about her (whereas the opposite is true....I blame myself)
She is upset I am upset about the PA because she claims it didn't influence her decision to leave (I am going to assume that's a lie but I can only control myself)
She is also upset I focus on her saying she wants to kill herself and mentions being depressed because it is caused all by me and has been pretty much the entire decade (she says she felt trapped, despite that we moved to two different states but okay I cannot believe what she says)
It is too volatile for me to get too close. Because after she was angry at me she then was in tears and said she is trying hard to feel back in love because it would be so much easier. I told her that while I want that goal that I have decided that it is not fixed overnight and that I am working on things on my end because I need those skills for myself and that she needs to figure out what it is she wants and that that probably involves her making a decision about what she wants out of a M. That if she wants to work on it I am available but until she decides whether or not to work on it and trust that I am not acting a new part but am genuinely trying to make an effort and that changing yourself takes time and that I have weak moments. I ended it by saying that I am giving it at least a year to see noticeable improvements. She seemed shocked it would take that long so I clarified that it doesn't mean it's bad for a year but that we cannot be expected to be on lovey dovey we trust each other and we have no challenges. That likely a few months before we give it a real effort and after six months we would see some positive consistent behavior.
She also asked about what I tell people and I said I decided that I cannot involve them and I have only done it sparingly with a few people but I am going to stop it (and make it even harder on myself but I cannot involve people we both know). I told her she is amazing and I actually defend her when they insinuate something bad. She was sad and said I am not amazing. I am selfish and an [censored]. I told her I cannot make her take those words away but that I know that isn't true. That only she can work on that.
It just [censored] that we work at the same place and that she doesn't drive. And my work is a bit slow right now so my mind easily wanders. I am going to have to trick myself to not let that happen.
And then right before going to bed she wants to hug me and cries.
I am torn what to see that as: sadness she isn't in love or sadness that she wants out but cannot get herself to do it. But one thing is for sure: when she came back last week I should have been less eager. But how do I turn down my W when she always felt I did that. So maybe I shouldn't turn her down but definitely not suggest anything but let her take the lead. It's going to take a hell of a control effort. Especially with her being so sad.
And this morning everything was even more confusing. I kind of did my thing and suddenly she came to my bedroom talking about things. And after she took a shower she grabbed her breakfast shake (if there is a movie about us it is going to need a sponsor for the shake!) and coffee and just sat talking to me for twenty minutes. Just like last week it was about things she wanted to get me.
In the car she said another guy reached out to her but she isn't attracted to him and she really only wants friends. She said I don't know why I am telling you. I said maybe because you wanted me to know someone else reached out.
And then after asking me to just cancel the weekend plans later at night she said oh you contacted them to see if they can cancel it...well if they cannot cancel we can just go.
So her words were angry her behavior initially was angry and later compassionate and almost wanting my presence. I now know I need to not take that as anything more at this moment. I just need to accept that she truly IS confused and if I push or reach out she forces herself to not want near me. If I keep my distance she pursues me and becomes curious.
I am re reading the steps from the DR book... and I am going to have to try harder at focusing on my work.I have been able to work but it's also rough...
I noticed a pattern when my W would interact with me was sometimes when she needed something (a foot rub, food, etc) so I know she is in a meeting all day and she was responsible for ordering food. She reached out to me suddenly asking if I could pick the food up since she didn't plan it well. (we work at the same place). I told her a small lie that I am finally writing and so that I cannot really leave. She wrote "okay." "ttyl" and so much shorter messages than normal. So I said.. "calm down. You cannot be mad at me for wanting to do my work. I wish you would respect me more." And then she freaked out and wrote in all caps that she is not upset and how she doesn't like how judgmental I am. There is just a lot of unresolved anger that she has towards me.
Did I react too strongly? I just feel that if she tells me to stop doing all these nice things for her but that when I don't do them she reacts short or in the case of being hungry she says she will just go to bed hungry. And of course then I give in and say I will go grab something. I just feel so guilty and bad when I don't do these things. But I am in a desperate pursuer mode and she is retreating. And any time she comes closer and I connect with her she immediately retreats. I just don't know how to stop that pattern.
Did I react too strongly? I just feel that if she tells me to stop doing all these nice things for her but that when I don't do them she reacts short or in the case of being hungry she says she will just go to bed hungry. And of course then I give in and say I will go grab something. I just feel so guilty and bad when I don't do these things. But I am in a desperate pursuer mode and she is retreating. And any time she comes closer and I connect with her she immediately retreats. I just don't know how to stop that pattern.
Hi Tobias,
The short answer is yes, your reaction was too strong. She reached out for your help. You said no. Her response was fine with ok, ttyl. You should have left it at that. She asked, you answered. Done. No additional response from you would have been best.
Her asking you to do things for her is more of her cake eating. You are so smart to recognize that you are in a desperate pursuer mode. Loose the guilt by truly detaching. A DB coach will help you stop this pattern.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator The Divorce Busting Center 303-444-7004
A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.
Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
I am hesitant in responding b/c of what you have said about her depression and thoughts of suicide. I do not agree that the current situation is all your fault. Neither is every little bump in daily interactions are caused from you not saying or doing just the right thing.
From reading your thread, it pictures a man who is blaming himself for the past and striving to make improvements. He has a younger W who is in a PA with OM, and listens to her talk about the OM. He seems so disparate to be in his W's life that he is willing to share her with another man. IMHO, that is a formula for a very unhealthy MR.
If your W is showing erratic behavior and mentions suicide, she should be under the care of a doctor/therapy. Does she show erratic behavior only when she is responding to something you've said or done? Does she show erratic behavior with others, at work, etc? What about her family? Are they close and involved in her life?
I'm not sure if you are a meek and gentle man who compromises his boundaries.........or if you have a mistaken concept about DBing. Your W spends time with you on certain days and time with the OM on certain days. It's almost like a visitation schedule between you and the OM. Do you believe your W will be genuinely attracted to a H who is willing to share her with another man b/c he fears losing her? That must be a killer on your dignity.
Your W is bringing dispect into the sacred union of your marriage. You appear to believe the statements she makes about being with OM causes her to appreciate you more, and she's attracted to you, and how you need to be fair to him. Her values and standards and her sexually morality seems out of whack. Affairs can do that to people. It is not irreversible, if she has someone who is like a lighthouse, shining out the light from a place of stability. IMHO, you are trying to adapt to a lifestyle that is not what you really want, b/c in your heart you know she does not respect you if you share her with another man.
I encourage you to stand by your core values. Do not compromise your integrity. Don't confuse your aim in changing for the better.......with becoming a puppet. Sometimes when a person sees his mistakes and wants to make up for the past, he takes responsibility for all of his faults.....and the faults of his spouse. He blames himself for the inappropriate behavior of his spouse.....to the point of rationalizing her actions. In his eagerness to show his changes, he begins trying to appease and accommodate his W's demands to the extent his role becomes subservient . Is this the man you really want to become?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Wow. sandi2 what a thoughtful and kind response. I was afraid what it was you would say. But you hit a lot of it on the head.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
I am hesitant in responding b/c of what you have said about her depression and thoughts of suicide. I do not agree that the current situation is all your fault. Neither is every little bump in daily interactions are caused from you not saying or doing just the right thing.
Thanks.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
From reading your thread, it pictures a man who is blaming himself for the past and striving to make improvements. He has a younger W who is in a PA with OM, and listens to her talk about the OM. He seems so disparate to be in his W's life that he is willing to share her with another man. IMHO, that is a formula for a very unhealthy MR.
Yes. Honestly, I think if we are in a good situation and she has those urges and needs I can discuss that. I was hoping that by not forcing her NC she would recognize it was challenging to me and not pursue OM. But detaching and GAL seem so risky especially when there is someone else that delivers some of what she needs (emotional support, sex - last time two or three weeks ago with him). Like, I know I need to stop pursuing her but it just nags at me because that is exactly what I have been doing all these years. And then when she does want to hang out I now constantly wonder is she doing this just to get me off her back and then she can go back to OM. That is an unhealthy thought and I cannot control HER actions but it makes leaving the house seem like a risky choice. Especially when one text message showed when I was getting her food she was just chatting away with him and that was a day before I found out what was happening.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
If your W is showing erratic behavior and mentions suicide, she should be under the care of a doctor/therapy. Does she show erratic behavior only when she is responding to something you've said or done? Does she show erratic behavior with others, at work, etc? What about her family? Are they close and involved in her life?
No. But I have told her before that I feel she is a different person around me. She is very pleasant and extrovert around others but this exhausts her and so I always feel I only got her bad elements. This led to fights and of course she wanted to be vulnerable around me. I didn't get that. So instead of comforting her and LISTENING I tried to fix things and I distanced myself. She pursued me but I was defensive. And then when she got defensive I started pursuing her. Then she distanced herself...repeat cycle.
Going back to your specific question: her erratic behavior comes from when she tried to balance me and OM. I mean leaving late at night before I found out and then after I found out realizing she didn't create the right boundaries. Knowing I love her, knowing she wants to fall back in love with me but doesn't know how. (and of course there is an evil voice in my head saying...don't believe anything she says). So no, she is not that way around everyone else AFAIK. But I can see pain and struggle in her eyes and face. So I think it's genuine. And she has felt miserable for so long and kept trying and I made mistakes. Hence why I blame myself so much. But yes her pain and anger and sadness and depression come when I deviate from just laughing with her and having fun.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
I'm not sure if you are a meek and gentle man who compromises his boundaries.........or if you have a mistaken concept about DBing. Your W spends time with you on certain days and time with the OM on certain days. It's almost like a visitation schedule between you and the OM. Do you believe your W will be genuinely attracted to a H who is willing to share her with another man b/c he fears losing her? That must be a killer on your dignity.
It is. But I also understand polyamory and I also understand needing to feel not controlled. Even though I didn't try to control her I can see I did. But just to clarify she has maybe seen him five times in total and they had sex twice. I know that's true since the messages indicate when I was gone they only met once and since she doesn't drive and we work at the same place that she doesn't see him a lot. They do text a lot but he works weird hours and I did see their messages are mostly about jokes. It wasn't just sexting although it took up a greater role lately. But I haven't seen any messages since early last week.
As to being meek. I know she was sexually assaulted by an earlier BF. We are both passionate about sexual assault as a problem. I have always felt scared to be dominant or to talk about sex because I didn't want to be one of those men. And of course turns out she kind of wants me to be that person every now and then.
I tried to not make decisions alone but when we did things together and I didn't do something right she got angry. I got defensive and withdrew. She said she wasn't angry and I just give up. I got hurt. We fought. Repeat cycle. So yes she kind of wants a strong man who she can feel safe around. (and OM has guns and is kind of a good old boy but she does miss the ability to have good intellectual conversations and the fact his work hours make him unreliable for emotional support...but of course every text is a piece of magic I think. compared to her H who is sad and wants to be back with her. That makes her sad... etc. So I know I need to be strong and confident but I hate seeing her hurt.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Your W is bringing dispect into the sacred union of your marriage. You appear to believe the statements she makes about being with OM causes her to appreciate you more, and she's attracted to you, and how you need to be fair to him. Her values and standards and her sexually morality seems out of whack. Affairs can do that to people. It is not irreversible, if she has someone who is like a lighthouse, shining out the light from a place of stability. IMHO, you are trying to adapt to a lifestyle that is not what you really want, b/c in your heart you know she does not respect you if you share her with another man.
I have been trying to be stable and she got confused and said wait why he is changing now. But then I found out and I told two close friends and that hurt her. But ever since I have been trying to be stable while also being incredibly worried and struggling with my self esteem. I know I need to stop doing that.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
I encourage you to stand by your core values. Do not compromise your integrity. Don't confuse your aim in changing for the better.......with becoming a puppet. Sometimes when a person sees his mistakes and wants to make up for the past, he takes responsibility for all of his faults.....and the faults of his spouse. He blames himself for the inappropriate behavior of his spouse.....to the point of rationalizing her actions. In his eagerness to show his changes, he begins trying to appease and accommodate his W's demands to the extent his role becomes subservient . Is this the man you really want to become?
I know. And when I tell her she is perfect she says no I am not. I have made mistakes. I have been angry. I have lost respect for you. I have things I need to work on. I am selfish. I am an [censored].
No I don't want to become that man. But see that is the messed up thing. For years I felt I was having to do those things...but she saw everything we did as me doing what I wanted.
==
Update. So I confronted her about my fear that her texting makes it very hard for me to give her space. That I want to trust her and that I have noticed she is trying but that I am constantly worried about her just waiting to get out and is just not being genuine. I said I know I have things I need to work on but there is someone else involved and that is the challenge to me. Especially when giving you space means doing exactly what you think I have been doing all these years: ignore you and force you to find emotional support from friends.
It led to a shouting match and I told her I cannot live under the same roof and be married until you recognize how hurt this PA has made me. I will help you move out but I just cannot. It feels like you have zero regards for my feelings and care more about his feelings and how he feels about it. That knowing that this happened makes it harder for me to be strong and confident which makes it even more likely she is done with me.
After that she came over to my bedroom and said something that I wish she would have said earlier and maybe she did but it was one of those things where I may just not be listening. It is also semantics. To me wanting to save a marriage doesn't mean the only goal is that we are happily married. She only wants to see if we can save the marriage. But she doesn't want to commit to saving the marriage.
And yes, she is scared. She feels I have been emotionally abusive. I feel she has been emotionally abusive... (and I hate myself when I recognize that despite my intentions I was emotionally abusive) and I haven't shown this side and when I did it was one or two days before I would resort back. She said I can see you are really changing because in the past you had zero desire to just relax and calm down and breathe in and out. I told her that I needed to do that because my energy was just driving me insane. She said she checked out because she felt she was number 3 in my life: my work, wanting to watch sports (my escape from misery...as I teach about inequality and problems in our society) and then her. I told her that yes I made those errors where I turned you down and didn't realize I was doing it and then later wondered why we just seemed to not be right because in my mind she was the center of my world. I even agreed to buying a house. I focused on retirement. And in the meantime I told her no when she wanted to do fun things. She tried to address things I said but I didn't follow through (for different reasons... sometimes I was anxious to do something wrong because she would immediately snap at me which kills my confidence which then becomes a turn off for her).
She said she tried so many times and any time it felt better it would get bad. (Ironically, I felt the same way). I told her it's because I didn't understand a lot of things. I was so worried of losing you that I just couldn't think straight and acted out of desperation a lot of times. But that we never communicated fairly and openly about these things. She agreed and said she is really trying. And that it is just painful to think of the past. But that she wants to feel in love again. That if we would meet right now she would be madly in love but that she just cannot get over the past. That we need to meet a counselor to work on conflict resolution and communication skills (she NEVER said that lately). She says she just cannot commit to saving the marriage because she just doesn't know if she is ready for that. And that she was so DONE. She had been ready to leave for several years and I never seemed to take it seriously. That it just got very confusing when suddenly I DID seem to act differently. I told her this marriage is over. We both messed up and it just further escalated despite what we wanted. We need a new marriage. I don't ever want you to feel anything less than #1 and I want you to know how special and amazing you are. I told everyone those things except her. I thought she knew.
And just now she sent me a message saying go ahead and schedule the counselor.
I haven't written here since last Friday. But we had our first counseling session last night and W was really dreading it but I told her this won't be about whose to blame but rather about addressing the system rather than the symptoms and that it won't be a yelling match. I like the lady she seems very in tune with what we want (not seeing marriage or divorce as the automatic outcome) but encouraged my W and myself to also do individual sessions to address resentment. W. actually said she has stopped bringing up "well in the past you didn't do x,y,z or weren't excited" and I unfortunately didn't even notice that (probably because I saw focusing on those statements as a threat for us to start a conflict and for me to feel pain and hurt. She said she still thinks and feels these things but I told her I appreciate her taking this first huge step to not say it. And I was jumping for joy internally because I do think one of the biggest obstacles that prevent us from going forward is her resentment towards me.
W was encouraged to not continue talking to OM but in the car W said "just to be honest, I am not quite there yet" she also doesn't know how to talk about the MC to OM. I hope in the next couple of sessions W will reflect deeper and perhaps decide to stop talking to him is the best way for us to reconnect. But she also doesn't talk about him as being someone she can be in a relationship with. And I decided to just nod and say well he is being a friend to you. I think I need to recognize signs of progress and signs of her behavioral changes towards me as huge steps even though I wish time would move faster. But on the other hand, I DO need changes and I am not quite there with being consistent in several things.
W did mention depression in her in take which I was worried she would leave off. But expressed reluctancy to be medicated. MC said holistic approaches could work and suggested a mood chart which I think will be extremely helpful. Later I told her that if she doesn't want to give me an entire narrative and needing to comfort me if her mood leads her to want to be alone to perhaps initiate some words that indicate to me whatever she needs (e.g., need to be alone, need you in the same room but quiet etc.).
W. expressed to MC that she isn't willing to say save our marriage at all cost but that she is open to the idea of it being able to be saved. This to me was huge and unless she is with me to delay this process because living on her own is too expensive and complicated which would mean that my gut feeling is wrong and basically that I have been living with a stranger for a decade. I think the MC asking questions and me nodding and affirming my flaws were already huge for my W to feel much better about a future. In fact in the car she said... that I am not like her dad and that when she mentioned it in the past that there were elements (e.g., yelling at the tv during sports). I told the MC that I always dismissed her referencing her dad to me as non sense because I wasn't her dad and I wasn't abusive. But that I now recognize that I in fact by dismissing it and continuing that behavior that in many ways I was like her dad and decided I need to change that. MC said that was huge. And I like that W in car ride home kind of defended me.
We have our next appt next Wednesday and so we shall see but I am very hopeful. Not that it will be easy. MC suggested cognitive behavioral therapy where basically a bad memory needs to be replaced with 12 or so positive thoughts. And this will of course highlight all the things that are problematic and tough between us so it will be essential for me to not pressure her and to ONLY display signs of positive emotions regardless of my own fears, pain and insecurities. But I will discuss that with MC if we end up having individual sessions as well.
My W is also very positive about me in public towards others (I don't think she ever stopped doing it although at times she would show irritation towards me). She has encouraged me to befriend one of her coworkers' husbands which is a confusing step if she really was done with me. Her coworkers know very little about us and in fact have an extremely positive view of me it seems. So having me enter what is potentially an explosive situation if they ever find out what happened is a big risk on her part. Either she likes the risk, or thinks she can control it OR she simply desires to remain married but doesn't necessarily know how to do that and how to feel like that.
W also expressed reluctance to go on a trip back to another state. I booked it a month or so ago for her to go alone. So I said that if she doesn't feel like going she doesn't have to. It was HER suggestion that since I hadn't gone to the state where she wants to do her PhD that maybe we could meet there and she would still make the original trip but cut it short after a few days. She said it surprised her she was excited about the idea of us going there (but a day later said she doesn't yet see it as a romantic trip). I decided to go because a) I have always focused on cost of trips as reason not to go (ironically she is now worried it is expensive); b) she feels I am not supportive of her goals and c) I didn't book it immediately after she mentioned it but not only did she repeat that desire the next morning, she also messaged me several times to say she looked into options.
While I am adopting several things of the LRT I am not fully committed to it because I don't think we are at that stage. She IS still wanting to spend time and talk and she IS still living under the same roof. She HAS continued to show me affection in ways when I didn't ask for it. And she has expressed that she is a monster for the way she treated me. (and yesterday she jokingly referenced to OM as cheating and earlier she always said I am sorry it hurt you but we were separated and so nothing was wrong about it).
Since we booked the MC she has stopped referencing to moving out, stopped saying she will miss one of the cats, stopped saying she will miss me. Has she stopped THINKING and PLANNING it? Not sure. But other than the fact that we have problems we have been getting along maybe better than ever. A lot of that is because of changes I made but she has responded to those changes. A few weak moments from both of us but nothing major. Most importantly, we are working more and more like a team on several things like cleaning and cooking.
To be continued (I am sure... maybe negative...maybe positive...maybe both...)
