WW in A; Broke NC promise; Dropping Rope-3rd thred

[Coconut]

My sense is that this was a pretty damaging episode.

Make no mistake about it, what you did was not damaging to your M, the A is damaging and has to stop before there is any hope or chance for your M. You handled yourself very well and I get the feeling she knows you are demanding she make a choice, not get both worlds.

I'm suspicious. This seems a bit early to be having a change of heart, although her demeanor and tone of voice IS somewhat subdued/down/even maybe contrite? I keep coming back to that she immediately changed her cc password yesterday AM...

I don't know if there is really a timeline of when a change of heart could/should occur, but I will say this, I think you should take your time before having any follow up relationship conversations...

I hope I'm thinking of someone else's sitch, but I think you said she has "tried" to stop communication twice before, with the longest being like 10 days before she broke down. If she has a change of heart, and wants to work on the marriage, she isn't going to go back to the OM because you don't jump right back in.. No matter if she means it or not, wait and see what her actions are, not her words.

[hoosjim]

Thanks Stander and Coconut.

These are really the big questions:

1) Do I even WANT to have a MR convo with her right now? My sense is that if SHE approaches ME, I can listen, but my trust is still nonexistent for her and i feel like she should know that. If she wants to "work on the MR", either with MC or by talking between the two of us, I want to know how I can trust her and I don't know if I can. I think it is incumbent on her to show me how I can trust her.

2) If we do talk, where do I take the convo or allow it to go? I am sensitive to the need to "validate" if we are really working on the MR and she is sincere, but... I am uncertain if at this stage with a WW that is what I want to be doing(?) I mean, obviously I don't want to be a jerk and be NON validating, but it seems to me I'd want to keep the convo in a place where it would not be "all about her" and that (validation) would not be as much of an issue. ALSO, she is almost certain to cheerily point out how she unfriended and blocked (?) OM on FB and "smashed the 2nd phone" (thjough I have seen proof of neither) but... My response to that internally is kind of like "So?" I mean, she got rid of the phone twice and then got it back. No reason she cant go by another. No reason she cant open a 2nd FB account either. I need to know where her heart is, not where her 2nd phone is. I think I need to be able to say that if we talk tonight.

3) Do we go ahead with the MC scheduled for tomorrow? I was ready to pull the plug on this earlier, but talked to MC individually. She wants us to do the session if possible (we have two hours scheduled BTB) and still thinks she might be able to help W get through and over this, especially if she can convince her to do some IC. I am in general opposed to doing anything pursuing or even "working on the MR" until I know W is sincere about cutting it off with the Om... which right now I can't trust at all. MC is a big proponent of transparency, cutting contact, etc etc, as well as trust and openness-- maybe I say I'm willing to go to this one session with W-- if W is willing to cooperate and be fully open with MC-- in hopes MC can help facilitate something?

I just feel kind of funny doing something so soon. Really just don't trust her at all at this point. Not even a week ago she was in tears on phone to OM saying "I just want to jump on you and run away with you". That doesn't go away in 6 days. No way no how.

[Coconut]

Ok, it was you who posted that your W tried to end communication with OM and that only lasted about 10 days before she started up again.

I would not have a R talk, if she says she is going NC with OM because she wants to save M, I would respond by telling her that it is going to take more than her saying it this time, and you are going to need her to actually stop all communication with him for awhile before you reinvest.

As for MC, if you think it may end up with her getting into IC, then I think it would be a good thing. But again, I would not start trying to "work" on the MR until she has been NC for awhile. Two reasons:

1. She needs to put in somework to show you that she has true remorse for what she has done, and is committed to working hard on the M going forward.

2. She needs to grieve the loss of OM, no matter how much she is going to try and convince you, she is going to grieve the loss of OM (like stopping a drug).


Look, don't try and rush the letting her back in to try and save M, you need to be 100% convinced that she wants to recommit and that you want to, piecing is really really really hard. I would recommend you look up LIM's sitch, and read what he posted about feeling like he let his wife back in the M to easy... It's been a year of piecing for him, and he still feels like she didn't have to work hard enough to "earn" him back.

[AnotherStander]

Do I even WANT to have a MR convo with her right now? My sense is that if SHE approaches ME, I can listen, but my trust is still nonexistent for her and i feel like she should know that.

Unless YOU want a D, then yes, you should accept every offer she makes to have a convo. Because again, as the LBS your job isn't to talk but to listen, validate and empathize. Validating is not agreeing! It is simply hearing her out, letting her tell you her feelings. I mean I would hope you would WANT to know what she is thinking and feeling, right?

I want to know how I can trust her and I don't know if I can. I think it is incumbent on her to show me how I can trust her.

I think you can't see the forest for the trees. How do you build trust? Through COMMUNICATION. Obviously one convo isn't going to do it, but it's a good start.

If we do talk, where do I take the convo or allow it to go?

You don't take it anywhere. You let her take it wherever she wants to. Listen. Validate. Empathize. Make that your mantra.

I am sensitive to the need to "validate" if we are really working on the MR and she is sincere, but... I am uncertain if at this stage with a WW that is what I want to be doing(?)

She is hurt and confused. You want to give her a solid shoulder to lean on. That doesn't mean letting her cake-eat, it just means you want to be the safe port in her storm, the person she wants to confide in. Better you than OM. Don't let your own pain cloud you to the fact that she is hurting just as much as you if not more. Try to be sympathetic to what she is going through. Again, I'm not saying AGREE with her, that's not it at all. Just LISTEN to her and be there for her as emotional support.

but it seems to me I'd want to keep the convo in a place where it would not be "all about her"

No not right now. It is ALL about her. When was the last time you read DB? Look at the "It Takes One to Tango" chapter again.

ALSO, she is almost certain to cheerily point out how she unfriended and blocked (?) OM on FB and "smashed the 2nd phone" (thjough I have seen proof of neither) but... My response to that internally is kind of like "So?"

What does DB say about this? Celebrate the baby steps. I think you are ignoring the baby steps and hoping for some BIG move? Big moves don't happen in reconciliation. It's a series of many baby steps with a lot of backslides. If she tells you these things then celebrate them! Tell her you are very happy to hear that, and you appreciate that she has taken some promising steps on this long journey.

I mean, she got rid of the phone twice and then got it back. No reason she cant go by another. No reason she cant open a 2nd FB account either.

Right, which is why we're saying not to welcome her back with open arms.

Do we go ahead with the MC scheduled for tomorrow? I was ready to pull the plug on this earlier, but talked to MC individually.

I don't think it's time for that yet. I would suggest going alone. I'm not sure your pastor is the best choice for MC anyway. Have you tried a DB coach?

[Coconut]

I would not have a R talk, if she says she is going NC with OM because she wants to save M, I would respond by telling her that it is going to take more than her saying it this time, and you are going to need her to actually stop all communication with him for awhile before you reinvest.

Unless YOU want a D, then yes, you should accept every offer she makes to have a convo. Because again, as the LBS your job isn't to talk but to listen, validate and empathize. Validating is not agreeing! It is simply hearing her out, letting her tell you her feelings. I mean I would hope you would WANT to know what she is thinking and feeling, right?

AnotherStander is absolutely correct, when I stated not to have R talks with her, I was referring to initiating them, or responding with your thoughts, excitement, happiness (etc.) that you two are going to try and work things out.

Validate her, be pleasant, continue to GAL and be mysterious... but don't try and start piecing your MR back together. When you start doing that, you will be laying the foundation for the rest of your R, don't rush it, she will wait, if she doesn't wait then it wouldn't have worked because she wasn't really committed to making the M work.

[hoosjim]

So, we talked a little last night. She had told me yesterday morning when she called that she wanted to talk. Tonight, getting ready for bed, she was kind of trying to make idle chit chat but wasn't saying anything about that morning, so i say "you said this morning you wanted to talk tonight tonight? " She responds "yes, but I went first last time do why don't you talk first now". Since there actually was something appropriate i thought I could say, I say "okay". "I appreciate what you told me you did with the extra phone and with facebook. I've told you how important it is that I be able to trust you and doing things like that are good steps towards that. Like I told you yesterday, though, theres been alot of damage done to my trust for you". She asks what MC and i talked about, and I tell her just that I knew that she was still seeing OM and contacting him and had been lying to me about that and that I was pretty certain I didn't want to continue with counselling or working on MR under those circumstances. I told her MC said she still wanted us to have the Friday (today) session just to see if there was any basis for reestablishing some of the trust. (I did not tell her that MC wanted to try to entice her to come in for some IC-- MC had asked me to let her (MC) bring that up.) W then tries to steer convo in direction of talk about MR itself, talking about how she read something today about 5 ways to tell if aby particular person is "the one", and about how it talked about going to each other in times of trouble, which we never really did, both of us being internalizers. (And it's clear when she does things like this that she's trying to find rationalization/validation for why OM is her "soul mate" and I am not.) At any rate, I tell her "W, i know you have alot of voncerns and doubts about us, and i hear what youre saying here, but...I'm sorry but rright now just don't feel comfortable or trusting enough of you to he talking about and trying to diagnose the problems in our MR." Her: "I'm trying to get through this the best I know how under the circumstances." She was somewhat defensive, also asking me "what conversation I had overheard and how I heard it" to which I responded quietly "does it really matter?" She made dome other comment that I took as minimizing the A or its significance, and I told her that I had been very clear on what I would live with in my M, and that there was no set of circumstances that made what she had been doing acceptable or appropriate, and that it made me upset for her to try go justify or minimize it. There was some other stuff, but it was not actually a long talk, and the words I typed above are intended to be a general representation and not a word for word regurgitation.

This morning, she was clearly stressed/in turmoil.(alot going on now-- ZHS graduation for my son, family coming to town starting tomorrow, and yesterday she finds out her mother is ailing and might not be able to come to town to visit for the graduation) When I came back up ftom breakfast, she was sitting in bed, head bowed in her hands. I said, "you look upset, ant to talk about it?" To which she says "no, I'm fine." (I would not normally have approached her in that circumstance with the way things are right at this moment-- preferring to let her engage first, but I know she is worried about her Mom.)

Also, color: she seemed somewhat more contrite and eager to talk yesterdat morning before she had two lengthy calls with bff, one at lunch (she told me she was on when I called her er midday about something for our son) and one in evening at home. I know very well where bff stands, here: "be free, do what feels good for YOU" (bff has had 3 affairs herself) "don't let him control you". And bff is also friends with OM and has been sometime liaison, so sure she is feeding/encouraging the rebellion and resentment in my w.

FUn stuff.


Addendum. At one point she said "I am committed to this" (Working on MR), which was when I said I just find that very hard to believe under the circs...

[sandi2]

I appreciate what you told me you did with the extra phone and with facebook. I've told you how important it is that I be able to trust you and doing things like that are good steps towards that. Like I told you yesterday, though, theres been alot of damage done to my trust for you".

Apparently, you do trust her. She told you she smashed her phone! She told you about FB. And, you believed her. At this point, her word alone is pretty worthless.

She's still playing you. I told you she would try to pick you to see how much you knew. Good job at not spilling your guts.

This may sound as though I am hitting below the belt, but I just want to warn you. The old wife would never have done such a thing.....but don't be shocked if this WW uses the illness of her mother for some type of excuse......to her advantage. It has been known to happen, and even worse, by WW's.

[hoosjim]

I didn't say I trusted her on that... I flat out told her "you told me you'd done these kinds of things before... what exactly does this mean now? It didn't mean then that I could trust you, what's different now?"

FWIW, she DID apparently smash the phone. She left her purse laying around, open, and it was pretty clearly in pieces in a ziploc bag. Not sure why she didn't bring it to me to show me. Maybe she assumed I'd snoop? (Maybe she got an old phone from someone and smashed it?) Hoo knows.

Her talk in MC session was tearful (but kudos to her for even showing up knowing what was coming). She "doesn't know" why she does some of things she does.. feels like a "terrible person" and "selfish", but at the same time doesn't understand why this one "little" thing (the A) has to be the benchmark for the entire MR discussion. She feels like "all the pressure is on her" to make a decision on the marriage because of this relationship, and that, if not for the EMA, we would just be talking about our problems which 'pre-existed" the involvement of the OM. She also wants to know "why, only now, after all these years and the other times she came to me saying things needed to change, am i wanting to fight for the marriage. Why did it take this outside relationship." MC explained the necessity of cutting contact, how hard it would be, how its like a drug, etc.... but wife clearly not sure she CAN do that and, from all indications, not at all clear that she WANTS to do it. She talked a couple of times about thinking often that she "needs to be off on her own to see who SHE is...", but then also granted that if we WERE to be separated that she would want to be able to "go out and see OM and his friends, of course just "as friends", if his group was going out to do anything. (And still some downplaying of the A even in the MC session even though she now knows all the cards are on the table.) MC mentioned possibility that contact would have to be cut with bff too, if W really valued the MR... THAT did not sit well AT ALL, and I kind of wish MC had not brought that up.

Of course, my position now is that I am not sure I WANT to work on the MR any longer because... I don't think I can trust her and not sure how to get back to a place where I CAN trust her. I did say that, if there were some way she could prove herself trustworthy to me and I could regain that trust, that I WOULD be willing to invest myself 100% in working on our underlying problems and trying to restore our marriage... but no way would I do that while she was seeing another man. And, as things stand, I am not excited about doing any of the upcoming family things we have planned and will likely look to start cancelling them.

MC suggested we both do a couple IC sessions. I REALLY hope W will do these. May be only chance to really get her to cut the cord so we can move on to our own issues.


Also, she on several occasions repeated some variation of "why am I doing these things NOW... after feeling like I have felt (it's over with my H) for SO LONG now? Why only NOW am I doing these things." My sense (or maybe Im being paranoid, but it would mesh with other things shes said) is that this is a "OM is my soul mate and that is why, only NOW, am I wanting to do these things and actually leave my H."

[sandi2]

Well, your W's reaction in the MC is very typical. You may get tired of hearing me say it. I can somewhat relate to her feelings. I don't remember any case where the W "wanted" to give up her OM and the affair. (That's one of the things that a few folks don't seem to grasp). She feels that OM is her lifeline to experiencing all those wonderful feelings she has when he is with her. And now, she has to give it up and stay in a MR that is dead?! Yeah, it's tough, and the H feels more insult at the knowledge his W struggles to let go of another man.

She "doesn't know" why she does some of things she does.. feels like a "terrible person" and "selfish",

She knows! She has not been honest with herself, so it's easier to say she doesn't know why.

She feels like "all the pressure is on her" to make a decision on the marriage because of this relationship, and that, if not for the EMA, we would just be talking about our problems which 'pre-existed" the involvement of the OM. She also wants to know "why, only now, after all these years and the other times she came to me saying things needed to change, am i wanting to fight for the marriage. Why did it take this outside relationship."

All feelings very recognizable to me. Without an affair, she could point blame at you, but now the affair is getting in the way and the spotlight is on her. She is defensive, resentful, and bitter. She is trying to separate the affair from her M and say, "The affair has nothing to do with our problems". As more heat is put on her about the affair, she will probably blame you for her turning to another man.

I agree with the MC thoughts on the BFF, however, I don't know that your W will have the strength to distant that friendship. She wants that friendship and I honestly believe she could let go of the OM easier than her BFF. It's good that it came from the MC, rather than you.

The other thing I experienced and have seen regularly in stories is how the WW talks about wanting space to discover herself. What she really wants is time away from her M responsibilities and ties with her H. She wants to feel free and live the singles lifestyle. She probably will never admit it, but she wants to shed her current life for her fantasy. "Discovering who she is"......an old, old line handed down from the '70's decade and it's just a load of BS. It is an extension of her selfishness.

It's a rough time for both of you.

[Tobias]

and reading this response by sandi2 just hits home. Almost verbatim.