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H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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In nutshell-- I seriously neglected W over 7-8 year period. There were overlays (health problems, 2 special needs kids, financial troubles) but ultimately the responsibility was on me-- I turned away from her instead of towards her. Wife is "sexual being", but not just sex is important to her but intimacy. EA started in October/November 2016 with a friend of mine who took advantage of situation and info both W and I confided in him to make his move. BD on 1/23 when I discovered the A. W said A not physical at that time, and I have good intel that this is so. She distanced for a few weeks while I was also awakening and GAL-ing, etc, during which things improved for us. Then, everything turned around and she started putting up walls and distancing again. In late March they spent the night together-- unclear if there was sex. The A MAY have gone physical, but I cannot be sure, she still says no--and based on my intel I am FAIRLY certain that this is true, BUT at very least involved fairly explicit phone sexting, etc. The OM is kind of a low-life (serial drinker, womanizer, not much of a future, five years her senior but looks 15-20 years older--and yes I changed this, but it's true due to how young my W looks) but is a "fun" and "funny" guy and really "makes her laugh." Based on her behavior, pretty certain she is a "WW" as Sandi2 defines that term. Got her to promise "No Contact" early May by establishing boundary of "no open marriage". She initially attempted to comply, but started sleeping separately from me in guest room and sulked, then NC fell apart about 10 days later after a drunken evening out for all of us. Sought MC based on several recommendations and her apparent desire to do so. She seemed genuinely engaged in it, and appeared to return to or at least try to return to some sort of "no contact" but then quickly relapsed and has seen OM regularly since. I am currently "rope dropping" and it is bearing some fruit with her showing markedly increased interest/curiosity about me, BUT... by end of week there will be a convo about her continued contact with OM and violation of my boundary, and she will "know I know". Major chance this ends the MC, but not sure. MC thinks she can pull us through it.

Some but not alot of remorse shown for the A... "it just happened"... and she really fears alienating our boys (S16 and S18). Another BIG overlay is her BFF who also appears to be wayward (separated currently) and seems to be proponent/enabler of the A. Several other close friends who are in marital trouble as well. Hoping she and I can survive the storm, even if we're the only ones.

I am also continually struggling conceptually with the pursuit/distance dichotomy and how to balance that since it was "distance" that got me in this bind in the first place, even as I see the apparent fruits of doing so in my current rope=-dropping efforts.

Also getting alot of conflicting "voices" on this. Please see my first thread for more details.

Thanks to all-- being on this forum really, really helps!


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Carried over from previous post........

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In MOST cases I know what the right answer is to the questions I ask, I just need to 1) be more confident in that and, especially 2) Do NOT get ahead of myself, do not get too wordy, and do NOT spin scenarios. Work with what is in front of me.


Sounds better.

Quote:
I am also continually struggling conceptually with the pursuit/distance dichotomy and how to balance that since it was "distance" that got me in this bind in the first place, even as I see the apparent fruits of doing so in my current rope=-dropping efforts.


As you may know, MWD has not distinguished the wayward wife apart from the walk away wives. IMHO, the WAW leaves in an attempt to survive the harsh circumstances the H cast upon the lives of her and the children. Whether she is fleeing an abusive situation; her H being imprisoned; an addict; or leaving a man who will not work to provide the bare necessities of life..........these women have to leave in order to protect/provide for themselves & their children. There is not that entitlement and selfishness you see in waywards. IMHO, the WAW comes from a M where the H is definitely the bad/sorry guy. In those type of situations, then the H would not want to do any action that looks like old behavior patterns to his W. He would want to prove himself, and hopefully in time, she would see he had changed and she could trust him again. I think MWD gives solid advice for those M's with a walk away wife.

The mindset of a wayward wife has usually been in the making for quite some time. When she gives the bomb drop, it usually wakes the H with a charge, and he is ready to throw himself into the MR 100%. However, this woman is not a typical WAW. Upon observing a wayward, her "recent" strange behavior stems from a foundation that has been forming for a long time. She may have kept it under cover for a long time, but bad stuff has been brewing. The WW is filled with resentments from the past and she just won't let go. The resentment causes feelings of disrespect for her H and eventually she will do something (large or small) that is an act of rebellion (comparable to teenagers acting out.....all the way to girls gone wild, in & out of affairs, etc). The attitude and outward behavior of a WW is noticeable by her H, b/c of the obvious change in her. The WW is angry, and she is capable of venting her pent up rage.......and usually, the H is her target. Most of her anger, IMO, is in the form of bitterness. Especially in a long term MR where the W has had years of unmet emotional needs, big disappointments/pain, etc. All that bitterness and feelings of disrespect for her H/MR, has been pushed down and finally reaches its threshold. IMHO, she is in a state of emotional vulnerability, and the chances of her turning to something that makes her feel better, is high. Her mindset can change dramatically, to the point her H is wondering, "Who is this woman and where is the girl I married"? Most WW's have no romantic feelings for the H, and it's more like one feels for a relative. Of course, all of these things will vary to some degree in the individual. However, those characteristics are there, and one that seems very noticeable in WW cases is the selfishness. The WW feels a sense of entitlement and justification. This is part of what sets her apart from the WAW. Selfishness is her motivator. Everything is about her and what benefits her the best. We have seen wayward wives forsake their babies in order to be with some other guy or so she can act like GGW and sleep around. And then, justify her actions by saying, "This is my time to be happy".

I have said all of that to tell you how your previous and current behavior plays into it. B/c of the bitterness she has allowed to grow in her heart, it is hard to let go of it. Doing so, would require forgiving her H, and she doesn't want to forgive him. Being angry at him is her platform and it justifies her current behavior. There have been several reports of H's who made remarkable changes and was the man a woman would be a fool to leave. And yet..........it did not persuade his WW to give the MR another chance. Several of the WW's would tell the H how she could see his improvements, but that she still wanted a divorce. Some WW's would be angry that the H waited until she was done...before he got his act together. Other WW's would complement the H for his improvements, but then add how it had not changed her feelings. IMO, that's got to be a big blow to the H. And, that is another reason we stress to all newcomers to make improvements for themselves. If the W sees the changes, fine.......and if she doesn't, that should be fine with you, also. If you have to pursue her in order to prove your changes......then something is out of kelter. The WW does not respond well to a pursuing H. She is attracted to strength and confidence. She responds to him suddenly becoming mysterious, or him GAL, or that she could actually lose him b/c he didn't want her. B/c as a WW......she has not seriously felt threatened of losing you. If you pursue her.....that shouts to her that she can cheat and still keep you as her backup plan.

Now this is what I want you to really understand. Is your W trying to flee from you, due to your previous neglect? That's not what I see, based on your threads. I see a woman benefiting from the MR, while she plays GGW and cheats on her H. If your W was fleeing the M, in order to survive a really bad situation (short version), then the things your emotions are wanting to do with your W might make a difference (depending on the situation). However, that doesn't work successfully with waywards. Why? B/c of all that wayward mess in her head/heart. She has a bad mindset that has developed over time, and that's the enemy in your MR. It's not the OM, nor her BFF (although an influence)........it is her mindset about you, the MR, and the past. When a woman does not feel respect for a man..........she usually does not desire an intimate relationship with him. (That's why she wants him only for a friend). Now she may "use" him, if she needs the sexual release, or wants to have cuddle & comforting time, but the love a wife should have for her H is not there. She is a user, not a giver.

Some things will not change until she decides to do the right thing. She can't have it both ways. She is wrong to do what she's doing. Your WW does not want you pursuing her, b/c it makes her feel smothered and it turns her off. However, if you pull back....it brings her toward you. Just like you were dancing. You step forward and she has to step backward. You step back and she goes toward you. smile


Both people in this MR will need to make big changes. There is never a time a couple can stop working on their MR......if they want a happy one.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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So, today is a really, really hard day.

The issue of my boundary (no open marriage, wont share W with another man) finally came up last night. She asked if I was interested in talking about some of the stuff we had been assigned for this Friday's MC session (2 hours) and I said "Not really." (This was after asking where the notes and papers were, which had been sitting out on our bed but which I had put away after I found out over the weekend that she was still having FTF contact with OM.) So, she then says "well, can we talk?" and I say "talk away". So she launches into this explanation of how she has been feeling (and she really was or at least appeared to be, for her at least in her current "state", "opening up.") She says she has been doing a lot of thinking and some reading, and evaluating what she has been doing, and that she was (again) sorry for what she had done in terms of the A with the OM and that she knew that that had hurt me, but that she was trying to be open and explore her feelings towards me, etc. etc. She also says she has been wanting to say all this to me for a couple of days but that I had not been being very "responsive" to her. (As a refresher, this is all hard on the heels of me "dropping the rope" Saturday night, and pulling away hard. I had not been returning her texts unless they concerned the kids or some household business that couldn't wait, and I had been avoiding her around the house and not calling her during the day. In response, she had been texting my more frequently than at any time over the past 5 months I have known of the A, as well as calling me and following me around the house and being a little solicitious/flirty.) My response to her, in a level voice, was that I had noticed that she had been participating in the counseling, and that she had seemed interested in it, and I was appreciative of that, but... several weeks ago I had stated a boundary of mine to her, that I would not carry on as a married couple with her while she was seeing the OM or indeed ANY other man, and that she had agreed as a result to cut contact with the OM, AND THAT I knew she had been lying to me and broken that promise and that she was continuing to do so. Further, I didn't want to continue with the MC or discussing the MR as long as she continued to see the OM.

She, of course, wanted examples. And to protest. And to argue that nothing "serious" was going on. I gave her a couple of examples of things I knew, but did not let her know how I knew, and did not reveal anything that would've revealed all or even my most important sources,and held quite a bit back. (Though she did figure out that I had gone through her CC statements online.) I told her I didn't appreciate her trying to turn things around on me. She asked if I wanted to continue the counseling, and I said "under the current circumstances, no... I am not sure how I could trust you. If you could commit 100% to that process, and somehow demonstrate that you were trustworthy, I could myself give 100% to that process, but under no circumstances while she was in contact with OM." (These are not my exact words, but something close.)

We went back and forth a bit, prolly more than I should have, (she made one BIG denial that "I have not seen him since _______" which I couldn't stop myself from responding to-- she had seen him for a brief 10 min kissing meet up on Saturday, which I knew about but didn't share other than "I know you saw him at ______ on Saturday morning-- head drop on her part) though I think I kept from getting too far down in the weeds, and she DID grant that she still had the extra phone (though didn't offer to give it up) DID grant that she had been in touch with and following him on FB; and DID admit to one FTF meeting (though she downplayed it.) She also made a big deal out of me snooping (which she said it was obvious I had done) and that it made her feel even more "trapped and smothered" than she had previously. She also continually tried to justify what she was doing, once by saying she had been "living in fear" of when the children went off to college and she was "left here alone with you [meaning me]," and once by saying that maybe she needed to "explore herself" and "find out who she is". She also said she had been trying to "minimize contact" with OM, making it "less and less", and that lately both contact and phone calls had been much less frequent. Which could, actually, be true-- I have not been monitoring her 24/7 and wouldn't be able to say for sure-- and I think she probably HAS been trying, based on her behavior patterns-- she just keeps having some pretty significant slip-ups, particularly keeping the "easy-to-contact-OM-on cheater phone" (which she just bought a THREE MONTH service card for-- first time she has ever bought more than one month) and then the two "contacts" this past weekend-- the tearful Friday afternoon "I want to run away with you" phoncon she made from outside his fave hangout (though granted she didn't go in) I posted about earlier , and then the brief 10 minute meet up where they chatted and kissed a little at the end that happened Saturday Morning when she went out to "run errands."

She wanted to talk more about the MR, which I slipped and did a LITTLE but, in the end, told her "look, I really just don't feel comfortable pretending like we are working on us by "talking" as long as you continue to see OM."

Today we got up and said very little to each other. She was somewhat surly, head down. She asked if I "hated" her and I said "no, but I am very angry with you, and don't feel like being close with you or talking with you or doing all the texting and talking and so forth that you have been wanting to do the past couple of days." I restated my boundary, that I can commit to working on the MR, but that carrying on as we have been (including counseling) as long as the OM was in the picture, is something I was not going to do. And then I left to go to the gym.

No word from her today either via phone or text.

She also changed both her credit card account page passwords (which is not very encouraging) which I found out when I went looking for an old transaction to help me confirm something for my timeline of events that I am keeping in my private journal.

My sense is that this was a pretty damaging episode. Not that I regret it because I think it had to happen-- I was not going to continue to "play" house and "play" at MC while she was screwing around with OM, and she was clearly (at least to my mind) not going to cut contact without some kind of jolt. And she still might not, but at least now it's out there, she knows I know and it is not "in the shadows," so maybe that part of the thrill will be gone. She also mentioned again her fear of losing the kids and that "she knows she's being selfish.) At any rate, she is and prolly will continue to be angry with me. Have to wait and see if she can get over that.

Looks like I will be rope-dropping, and last-last-resorting for the foreseeable future. Wouldn't surprise me if she opts to leave (she mentioned last night "maybe I just need to be off on my own") Only about 10% of separated couples end up reconciling. frown


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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Thanks, Sandi, that is all VERY helpful. And you can see my previous post if you want to see how last night went. End result is that today is hard, and I hurt, but maybe basis for longer-term progress? Idunno, I give myself like a "6" on a scale of 1-10 in how I handled it. Could've been briefer, could've been more insistent on "no, we're just talking about this" but, at least, I THINK the right message got across. I am going to continue with the distancing/rope-dropping, am planning on cancelling (or converting to individual session) the MC unless SHE comes to ME and says "IM sorry, I want to try this, here's what Im willing to do" (not really holding out a lot of hope for that to happen, though maybe God will surprise me and that will be the start of my miracle-- I am putting it "in his hands" every day), and, at next opportunity or next time it comes up (prolly pretty soon) will make it known that we need to adjust plans for the July 4 "family vacation" as I am not going to go to that and "pretend all is well."

The following, BTW, is proabably the best and most succinct explanation I have seen from you yet of what the WW dynamic means for my particular sitch:

Quote:
She has a bad mindset that has developed over time, and that's the enemy in your MR. It's not the OM, nor her BFF (although an influence)........it is her mindset about you, the MR, and the past. When a woman does not feel respect for a man..........she usually does not desire an intimate relationship with him.


And I know you have said that elsewhere and in other ways, but the incorporation of the OM and BFF (both of whom I DO focus on quite a bit) really resonated with me. Thanks.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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Beautiful post from Sandi, what a great summary of WAW vs. WW! Reminds me so much of what I went through, and in fact at one point my ex even made that "This is my time to be happy" statement almost word-for-word!

Originally Posted By: hoosjim
The issue of my boundary (no open marriage, wont share W with another man) finally came up last night.


Wow, well that sounds like quite a discussion. My take away from this is that your boundary is a reasonable one, and she should respect that. But having not read your first thread, it sounds like there is an AWFUL LOT of snooping going on on your part? Checking CC records, possibly a PI? Not sure how you know all the dates and times she meets OM, but you’ve got to stop that. You know there’s an OM, do you really need to know every little detail? The more you dig then the more you will suffer, and the deeper undercover she will go with the A, and the harder it will be for you to know what’s up. You’ve stated your boundaries, she knows them, now the thing to do is go dark on her as much as you can given that you have kids. Quit snooping. Just tell her that when she has given up OM and is willing to REALLY work on the M, that you will require full access to her CC records and phone records and such as proof that she really did terminate it with OM. I can’t remember if this is in DB or if I’ve read it on these forums, but it has been suggested that the WW actually type and send a message to OM telling him it’s over and not to contact her anymore and do all of this IN FRONT OF the LBH.

Originally Posted By: hoosjim
She also changed both her credit card account page passwords (which is not very encouraging) which I found out when I went looking for an old transaction to help me confirm something for my timeline of events that I am keeping in my private journal .


That’s what I meant above about her going deeper undercover. Now that she knows you’re snooping she will ramp up her efforts to hide her tracks better.

Originally Posted By: hoosjim
My sense is that this was a pretty damaging episode.


Damaging to your chances to reconcile you mean? Actually I think you did pretty well. You clearly stated your boundaries and you stuck to your guns. The snooping thing was the one area where you maybe slipped up a little, but overall I think you did pretty well. She wants to cake-eat but now she’s on notice that that’s not going to fly.

Originally Posted By: hoosjim
Only about 10% of separated couples end up reconciling. frown


You’ve be surprised how many of those 90% are because the LBS doesn’t want to get back together. I’ve read many stories where after S the LBS becomes the strong, independent person we recommend here, and then when the WAS comes crawling back the LBS doesn’t want to have anything to do with reconciling. ESPECIALLY if there was MLC involved. Once you go through the pain of BD and spend months/ years rebuilding your life, if and when the WAS comes knocking the LBS can’t help but think “no, I will not go through that again.” There are a lot of examples of the tables being turned, where the WAS suddenly finds themselves begging and pleading with the LBS. For months after BD I wanted nothing more in life than to “restore” my previous life. Now? I am perfectly content to just have XW as a friend. She’s never hinted at wanting to reconcile, but if she did I would politely decline. Our old life is gone, I have awesome memories of it but that chapter is closed and I am writing a new chapter. Much different, but beautiful in completely different ways.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Thanks, stander.

Point well taken on the snooping. Yah, it is painful, and sometimes I think it would have been better not to have known. But then I think "what if she had come back, and never told me? Could we have had the relationship, the true relationship, that I really want us to have?"

I think the answer to that (I hope) is that the truth has to be out there. I just hope that my approach to it has not poisoned the waters so badly that she "can't" come back. Right now she is VERY apart from me. The Rope Dropping had drawn her back some, but no amount of playing it cool or distancing by me was going to draw her out today. Was like she fell into a black hole. She started to call me once--- my phone rang one time and i didn't pick up because i never pick up on the first ring with her these days and then it never rang again. She must have chickened out. Or doubled her "hate" for me, lol.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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In a sense, you gave her a BD when you told her you knew about OM. She will need space from you, b/c her mind will probably be spinning today.

Like most betrayed spouses, the waiting to see the next move is agonizing. You have tossed the ball to her, and her mind is probably spinning about what to do. Your job is to give her space and do not approach her again about the previous discussion. However, she can approach you to tell you what she is going to do.

Hoosjim, do not begin doubting yourself and worry if you said the right things, etc. B/c that will trigger your need to go into some form of action...........and usually, when men try to back up and go over what they said.......or even worse, APPOLOGIZE to their WW for the snooping and for not returning the calls, and anything else he thinks will help get through this waiting and not knowing what she will do...........will make a bigger mess of things. If she does not tell you anything before Friday's session, you might consider attending alone (without your W's knowledge), or postpone the appointment instead of canceling. Not that you need to keep your counseling a secret from her, but this would give some physical space and may give a slight air of mystery of not knowing where you are during that time.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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I went out last night to run a couple errands. Didn't say where I was going. She was curled up fetal asleep on top if guest bed when I got home. I went up later after helping s16 with homework and she had gotten up and moved to mbr. Was still awake (I think waiting for me). Asked where I'd gone... I stayed evasive, just a couple errands. She kept wanting to chit chat with me. The nice, kind of far ranging spiraling talks about everything that we used to have once upon a time and have had a handful of times in past few weeks when she's let her guard fown. I tried not to be too open, chatty, and accommodative, but only so standoffish you can be while laying in same bed as someone without coming off as an actual @$$. I at least focused on not sounding too friendly/warm.

This morning, did what I had been doing past week... up and out early to gym.She calls me as I'm driving. Says she had wanted to talk last night but I went out and she fell asleep. Sorry, she says. Silence from me. Also says she had wanted to talk about other things... she unfriended tho OM and OM's circle on FB and smashed the extra phone, she says. "I didn't know if you wanted to talk or not". "If you'd like" I say, "we can talk tonight". "Okay", she says "this is my late day at eork" (it is), "I'll call you when I'm headed home".

I'm suspicious. This seems a bit early to be having a change of heart, although her demeanor and tone of voice IS somewhat subdued/down/even maybe contrite? I keep coming back to that she immediately changed her cc password yesterday AM...


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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Originally Posted By: hoosjim
I'm suspicious. This seems a bit early to be having a change of heart, although her demeanor and tone of voice IS somewhat subdued/down/even maybe contrite?


You're right to be suspicious. I mean it's a good sign, the thought of losing you may have triggered an awakening on her part. But this is where a lot of LBS's slip up, don't be too quick to welcome her back with open arms like nothing ever happened. Because something DID happen, and it demonstrates that there are problems in the M that need to be resolved. She needs to WORK to have her M back, if indeed that's what she is thinking.

Good luck with the talk, let us know what y'all discuss. Remember to LISTEN and VALIDATE. Let her talk. You just keep eye contact, repeat back to her what she is saying, ask her how that makes her feel, and validate her feelings. Validating is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ begging/ pleading/ explaining, etc. It's simply acknowledging her feelings. "You sound frustrated and confused, is that how you feel?" "Yes it is". "I understand, I'm sorry you're struggling with that." That sort of thing. This is a serious question- would listening to her and asking about her feelings be a 180 for you? It is for most men.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted By: hoosjim

My sense is that this was a pretty damaging episode.


Make no mistake about it, what you did was not damaging to your M, the A is damaging and has to stop before there is any hope or chance for your M. You handled yourself very well and I get the feeling she knows you are demanding she make a choice, not get both worlds.

Originally Posted By: hoosjim


I'm suspicious. This seems a bit early to be having a change of heart, although her demeanor and tone of voice IS somewhat subdued/down/even maybe contrite? I keep coming back to that she immediately changed her cc password yesterday AM...


I don't know if there is really a timeline of when a change of heart could/should occur, but I will say this, I think you should take your time before having any follow up relationship conversations...

I hope I'm thinking of someone else's sitch, but I think you said she has "tried" to stop communication twice before, with the longest being like 10 days before she broke down. If she has a change of heart, and wants to work on the marriage, she isn't going to go back to the OM because you don't jump right back in.. No matter if she means it or not, wait and see what her actions are, not her words.


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
10/31/16 - We sold house
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Thanks Stander and Coconut.

These are really the big questions:

1) Do I even WANT to have a MR convo with her right now? My sense is that if SHE approaches ME, I can listen, but my trust is still nonexistent for her and i feel like she should know that. If she wants to "work on the MR", either with MC or by talking between the two of us, I want to know how I can trust her and I don't know if I can. I think it is incumbent on her to show me how I can trust her.

2) If we do talk, where do I take the convo or allow it to go? I am sensitive to the need to "validate" if we are really working on the MR and she is sincere, but... I am uncertain if at this stage with a WW that is what I want to be doing(?) I mean, obviously I don't want to be a jerk and be NON validating, but it seems to me I'd want to keep the convo in a place where it would not be "all about her" and that (validation) would not be as much of an issue. ALSO, she is almost certain to cheerily point out how she unfriended and blocked (?) OM on FB and "smashed the 2nd phone" (thjough I have seen proof of neither) but... My response to that internally is kind of like "So?" I mean, she got rid of the phone twice and then got it back. No reason she cant go by another. No reason she cant open a 2nd FB account either. I need to know where her heart is, not where her 2nd phone is. I think I need to be able to say that if we talk tonight.

3) Do we go ahead with the MC scheduled for tomorrow? I was ready to pull the plug on this earlier, but talked to MC individually. She wants us to do the session if possible (we have two hours scheduled BTB) and still thinks she might be able to help W get through and over this, especially if she can convince her to do some IC. I am in general opposed to doing anything pursuing or even "working on the MR" until I know W is sincere about cutting it off with the Om... which right now I can't trust at all. MC is a big proponent of transparency, cutting contact, etc etc, as well as trust and openness-- maybe I say I'm willing to go to this one session with W-- if W is willing to cooperate and be fully open with MC-- in hopes MC can help facilitate something?

I just feel kind of funny doing something so soon. Really just don't trust her at all at this point. Not even a week ago she was in tears on phone to OM saying "I just want to jump on you and run away with you". That doesn't go away in 6 days. No way no how.


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Ok, it was you who posted that your W tried to end communication with OM and that only lasted about 10 days before she started up again.

I would not have a R talk, if she says she is going NC with OM because she wants to save M, I would respond by telling her that it is going to take more than her saying it this time, and you are going to need her to actually stop all communication with him for awhile before you reinvest.

As for MC, if you think it may end up with her getting into IC, then I think it would be a good thing. But again, I would not start trying to "work" on the MR until she has been NC for awhile. Two reasons:

1. She needs to put in somework to show you that she has true remorse for what she has done, and is committed to working hard on the M going forward.

2. She needs to grieve the loss of OM, no matter how much she is going to try and convince you, she is going to grieve the loss of OM (like stopping a drug).


Look, don't try and rush the letting her back in to try and save M, you need to be 100% convinced that she wants to recommit and that you want to, piecing is really really really hard. I would recommend you look up LIM's sitch, and read what he posted about feeling like he let his wife back in the M to easy... It's been a year of piecing for him, and he still feels like she didn't have to work hard enough to "earn" him back.


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Originally Posted By: hoosjim
Do I even WANT to have a MR convo with her right now? My sense is that if SHE approaches ME, I can listen, but my trust is still nonexistent for her and i feel like she should know that.


Unless YOU want a D, then yes, you should accept every offer she makes to have a convo. Because again, as the LBS your job isn't to talk but to listen, validate and empathize. Validating is not agreeing! It is simply hearing her out, letting her tell you her feelings. I mean I would hope you would WANT to know what she is thinking and feeling, right?

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I want to know how I can trust her and I don't know if I can. I think it is incumbent on her to show me how I can trust her.


I think you can't see the forest for the trees. How do you build trust? Through COMMUNICATION. Obviously one convo isn't going to do it, but it's a good start.

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If we do talk, where do I take the convo or allow it to go?


You don't take it anywhere. You let her take it wherever she wants to. Listen. Validate. Empathize. Make that your mantra.

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I am sensitive to the need to "validate" if we are really working on the MR and she is sincere, but... I am uncertain if at this stage with a WW that is what I want to be doing(?)


She is hurt and confused. You want to give her a solid shoulder to lean on. That doesn't mean letting her cake-eat, it just means you want to be the safe port in her storm, the person she wants to confide in. Better you than OM. Don't let your own pain cloud you to the fact that she is hurting just as much as you if not more. Try to be sympathetic to what she is going through. Again, I'm not saying AGREE with her, that's not it at all. Just LISTEN to her and be there for her as emotional support.

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but it seems to me I'd want to keep the convo in a place where it would not be "all about her"


No not right now. It is ALL about her. When was the last time you read DB? Look at the "It Takes One to Tango" chapter again.

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ALSO, she is almost certain to cheerily point out how she unfriended and blocked (?) OM on FB and "smashed the 2nd phone" (thjough I have seen proof of neither) but... My response to that internally is kind of like "So?"


What does DB say about this? Celebrate the baby steps. I think you are ignoring the baby steps and hoping for some BIG move? Big moves don't happen in reconciliation. It's a series of many baby steps with a lot of backslides. If she tells you these things then celebrate them! Tell her you are very happy to hear that, and you appreciate that she has taken some promising steps on this long journey.

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I mean, she got rid of the phone twice and then got it back. No reason she cant go by another. No reason she cant open a 2nd FB account either.


Right, which is why we're saying not to welcome her back with open arms.

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Do we go ahead with the MC scheduled for tomorrow? I was ready to pull the plug on this earlier, but talked to MC individually.


I don't think it's time for that yet. I would suggest going alone. I'm not sure your pastor is the best choice for MC anyway. Have you tried a DB coach?


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Originally Posted By: Coconut

I would not have a R talk, if she says she is going NC with OM because she wants to save M, I would respond by telling her that it is going to take more than her saying it this time, and you are going to need her to actually stop all communication with him for awhile before you reinvest.



Originally Posted By: AnotherStander


Unless YOU want a D, then yes, you should accept every offer she makes to have a convo. Because again, as the LBS your job isn't to talk but to listen, validate and empathize. Validating is not agreeing! It is simply hearing her out, letting her tell you her feelings. I mean I would hope you would WANT to know what she is thinking and feeling, right?


AnotherStander is absolutely correct, when I stated not to have R talks with her, I was referring to initiating them, or responding with your thoughts, excitement, happiness (etc.) that you two are going to try and work things out.

Validate her, be pleasant, continue to GAL and be mysterious... but don't try and start piecing your MR back together. When you start doing that, you will be laying the foundation for the rest of your R, don't rush it, she will wait, if she doesn't wait then it wouldn't have worked because she wasn't really committed to making the M work.

Last edited by Cadet; 06/19/17 12:14 AM. Reason: Combine posts

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So, we talked a little last night. She had told me yesterday morning when she called that she wanted to talk. Tonight, getting ready for bed, she was kind of trying to make idle chit chat but wasn't saying anything about that morning, so i say "you said this morning you wanted to talk tonight tonight? " She responds "yes, but I went first last time do why don't you talk first now". Since there actually was something appropriate i thought I could say, I say "okay". "I appreciate what you told me you did with the extra phone and with facebook. I've told you how important it is that I be able to trust you and doing things like that are good steps towards that. Like I told you yesterday, though, theres been alot of damage done to my trust for you". She asks what MC and i talked about, and I tell her just that I knew that she was still seeing OM and contacting him and had been lying to me about that and that I was pretty certain I didn't want to continue with counselling or working on MR under those circumstances. I told her MC said she still wanted us to have the Friday (today) session just to see if there was any basis for reestablishing some of the trust. (I did not tell her that MC wanted to try to entice her to come in for some IC-- MC had asked me to let her (MC) bring that up.) W then tries to steer convo in direction of talk about MR itself, talking about how she read something today about 5 ways to tell if aby particular person is "the one", and about how it talked about going to each other in times of trouble, which we never really did, both of us being internalizers. (And it's clear when she does things like this that she's trying to find rationalization/validation for why OM is her "soul mate" and I am not.) At any rate, I tell her "W, i know you have alot of voncerns and doubts about us, and i hear what youre saying here, but...I'm sorry but rright now just don't feel comfortable or trusting enough of you to he talking about and trying to diagnose the problems in our MR." Her: "I'm trying to get through this the best I know how under the circumstances." She was somewhat defensive, also asking me "what conversation I had overheard and how I heard it" to which I responded quietly "does it really matter?" She made dome other comment that I took as minimizing the A or its significance, and I told her that I had been very clear on what I would live with in my M, and that there was no set of circumstances that made what she had been doing acceptable or appropriate, and that it made me upset for her to try go justify or minimize it. There was some other stuff, but it was not actually a long talk, and the words I typed above are intended to be a general representation and not a word for word regurgitation.

This morning, she was clearly stressed/in turmoil.(alot going on now-- ZHS graduation for my son, family coming to town starting tomorrow, and yesterday she finds out her mother is ailing and might not be able to come to town to visit for the graduation) When I came back up ftom breakfast, she was sitting in bed, head bowed in her hands. I said, "you look upset, ant to talk about it?" To which she says "no, I'm fine." (I would not normally have approached her in that circumstance with the way things are right at this moment-- preferring to let her engage first, but I know she is worried about her Mom.)

Also, color: she seemed somewhat more contrite and eager to talk yesterdat morning before she had two lengthy calls with bff, one at lunch (she told me she was on when I called her er midday about something for our son) and one in evening at home. I know very well where bff stands, here: "be free, do what feels good for YOU" (bff has had 3 affairs herself) "don't let him control you". And bff is also friends with OM and has been sometime liaison, so sure she is feeding/encouraging the rebellion and resentment in my w.

FUn stuff.


Addendum. At one point she said "I am committed to this" (Working on MR), which was when I said I just find that very hard to believe under the circs...

Last edited by Cadet; 06/19/17 12:13 AM. Reason: Combine posts

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Quote:
I appreciate what you told me you did with the extra phone and with facebook. I've told you how important it is that I be able to trust you and doing things like that are good steps towards that. Like I told you yesterday, though, theres been alot of damage done to my trust for you".


Apparently, you do trust her. She told you she smashed her phone! She told you about FB. And, you believed her. At this point, her word alone is pretty worthless.

She's still playing you. I told you she would try to pick you to see how much you knew. Good job at not spilling your guts.

This may sound as though I am hitting below the belt, but I just want to warn you. The old wife would never have done such a thing.....but don't be shocked if this WW uses the illness of her mother for some type of excuse......to her advantage. It has been known to happen, and even worse, by WW's.


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I didn't say I trusted her on that... I flat out told her "you told me you'd done these kinds of things before... what exactly does this mean now? It didn't mean then that I could trust you, what's different now?"

FWIW, she DID apparently smash the phone. She left her purse laying around, open, and it was pretty clearly in pieces in a ziploc bag. Not sure why she didn't bring it to me to show me. Maybe she assumed I'd snoop? (Maybe she got an old phone from someone and smashed it?) Hoo knows.

Her talk in MC session was tearful (but kudos to her for even showing up knowing what was coming). She "doesn't know" why she does some of things she does.. feels like a "terrible person" and "selfish", but at the same time doesn't understand why this one "little" thing (the A) has to be the benchmark for the entire MR discussion. She feels like "all the pressure is on her" to make a decision on the marriage because of this relationship, and that, if not for the EMA, we would just be talking about our problems which 'pre-existed" the involvement of the OM. She also wants to know "why, only now, after all these years and the other times she came to me saying things needed to change, am i wanting to fight for the marriage. Why did it take this outside relationship." MC explained the necessity of cutting contact, how hard it would be, how its like a drug, etc.... but wife clearly not sure she CAN do that and, from all indications, not at all clear that she WANTS to do it. She talked a couple of times about thinking often that she "needs to be off on her own to see who SHE is...", but then also granted that if we WERE to be separated that she would want to be able to "go out and see OM and his friends, of course just "as friends", if his group was going out to do anything. (And still some downplaying of the A even in the MC session even though she now knows all the cards are on the table.) MC mentioned possibility that contact would have to be cut with bff too, if W really valued the MR... THAT did not sit well AT ALL, and I kind of wish MC had not brought that up.

Of course, my position now is that I am not sure I WANT to work on the MR any longer because... I don't think I can trust her and not sure how to get back to a place where I CAN trust her. I did say that, if there were some way she could prove herself trustworthy to me and I could regain that trust, that I WOULD be willing to invest myself 100% in working on our underlying problems and trying to restore our marriage... but no way would I do that while she was seeing another man. And, as things stand, I am not excited about doing any of the upcoming family things we have planned and will likely look to start cancelling them.

MC suggested we both do a couple IC sessions. I REALLY hope W will do these. May be only chance to really get her to cut the cord so we can move on to our own issues.


Also, she on several occasions repeated some variation of "why am I doing these things NOW... after feeling like I have felt (it's over with my H) for SO LONG now? Why only NOW am I doing these things." My sense (or maybe Im being paranoid, but it would mesh with other things shes said) is that this is a "OM is my soul mate and that is why, only NOW, am I wanting to do these things and actually leave my H."

Last edited by Cadet; 06/19/17 12:12 AM. Reason: Combine posts

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Well, your W's reaction in the MC is very typical. You may get tired of hearing me say it. I can somewhat relate to her feelings. I don't remember any case where the W "wanted" to give up her OM and the affair. (That's one of the things that a few folks don't seem to grasp). She feels that OM is her lifeline to experiencing all those wonderful feelings she has when he is with her. And now, she has to give it up and stay in a MR that is dead?! Yeah, it's tough, and the H feels more insult at the knowledge his W struggles to let go of another man.

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She "doesn't know" why she does some of things she does.. feels like a "terrible person" and "selfish",


She knows! She has not been honest with herself, so it's easier to say she doesn't know why.

Quote:
She feels like "all the pressure is on her" to make a decision on the marriage because of this relationship, and that, if not for the EMA, we would just be talking about our problems which 'pre-existed" the involvement of the OM. She also wants to know "why, only now, after all these years and the other times she came to me saying things needed to change, am i wanting to fight for the marriage. Why did it take this outside relationship."


All feelings very recognizable to me. Without an affair, she could point blame at you, but now the affair is getting in the way and the spotlight is on her. She is defensive, resentful, and bitter. She is trying to separate the affair from her M and say, "The affair has nothing to do with our problems". As more heat is put on her about the affair, she will probably blame you for her turning to another man.

I agree with the MC thoughts on the BFF, however, I don't know that your W will have the strength to distant that friendship. She wants that friendship and I honestly believe she could let go of the OM easier than her BFF. It's good that it came from the MC, rather than you.

The other thing I experienced and have seen regularly in stories is how the WW talks about wanting space to discover herself. What she really wants is time away from her M responsibilities and ties with her H. She wants to feel free and live the singles lifestyle. She probably will never admit it, but she wants to shed her current life for her fantasy. "Discovering who she is"......an old, old line handed down from the '70's decade and it's just a load of BS. It is an extension of her selfishness.

It's a rough time for both of you.


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and reading this response by sandi2 just hits home. Almost verbatim.

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Well, there will be a pivotal "talk" either tonight or tomorrow night. Everything kind of came to a head last week when I told W i knew pretty much everything, cut the cord/dropped the rope, and MC went over the difficulties involved in ending affairs but emphasized that the A had to end (NO contact) if we are truly going to work on MR, and MC also strongly recommended IC for both wife (mainly) and me.

So, decisions have to be made on both that issue (continuing MC-- our next session scheduled is an "intensive" all-day NEXT Friday 6/30) AND on upcoming "family vacation" during July 4 week that I have little stomach for pretending to particpate in if A is ongoing. HAven't gotten much chance to talk/discuss since Friday session, as we have been in full bore preparation for my oldest son's HS graduation-- getting stuff ready, family in town, etc. MC said take a few days before decision made (My W's decision as to WON she can truly and completely cut contact and my decision as to WON I want to continue MC). W knows I am ready to cut that off, I have told her i do not trust her and have no desire to continue with it under current circs. My preference would have been to continue distancing and let her come to me, as she had been before I dropped bomb on her last week, but we are running out of time on MC and vacation plans. I myself may have to bring it up myself, and we do, at least, have direction from the MC to do so-p- she (MC) had wanted us to schedule IC sessions prior to the 6/30 intensive.


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What is "WON"? confused


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Whether or not.


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the opposite of "Lost" smile

I think he is referring to Whether Or Not.


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Sort of a tangent-- Just watched a couple of Ted Talks by a doctor named Esther Perel. She's brilliant. Explains alot of the dynamics about both infidelity and the nature of love/desire (particularly the role of "myster" and "distance" and "unpredictability") that will be familiar to most DB adherents and followers of Sandi's posts on WWs.

Just really, really good succinct explanation of alot of the dynamics involved.


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I watched one of those last week. It was a good talk. My C had suggested that I watch "The Magic of not giving a f---" and I found an Esther Perel talk right after watching that one.

Definitely worth watching.


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I loved Esther Perel's talks about how some m's can survive, some even are deeper, despite the pain of an A. I didn't feel she lumped them all together, btw.


Anyhow, I think her talks are so useful. So is another TED talk called "Why We Lie",

and "The Power of Vulnerability" by Brene Brown. (Anything by her, actually).

Hang in there


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So, did you see the MC, Friday? Hope to hear from you soon.


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I had my IC session on Friday. W still has not.

MC basically said it sounds/seems to her like W is still not in that place where she is ready to fully commit to cutting off the A with the OM and that, unless that changes, there is little point in continuing the MC. She wants to get my wife in for an IC session, as she says sometimes talking about the A and dynamics/addictiveness of an A with a neutral third party can help bring them to their senses but, still, at the end of the day, the W has to be willing to take that step. W has taken steps to significantly limit contact with OM (is not SEEING him, has destroyed extra phone, is significantly limiting other contact-- though is possibly/probably in contact via Facebook messaging, though I see this on my own feed and she is not on there very much if at all). Anyway, MC says you can tell by the way my W keeps bringing up our past as kind of justification is a big tip off she may not be ready to make that commitment and my W herself, to her credit, did purport to make that commitment to completely end the R, though MC said "take a few days until after the graduation craziness has passed to decide." MC says W is "sorry she hurt you" but not sure W has really indicated the sentiment that she realizes what she did was wrong in and of itself. MC does think even if MC does not go forward that we can still try to find time here and there to "bounce out" and go have drinks or something to try to reconnect some, but I am not juiced about doing that and think that is where here advice falls apart a bit.

As for W, talked to her last night and today. She is still very hesitant and unwilling to come out and commit to completely ending the A and even on a more general level now to committing to the counselling, which is a bit of a switch. She is definitely more pouty and surly and quiet than before, so I think she is definitely in some sort of mourning/resentment period for the OM. We did get sucked into a 3 plus hour convo last night after I brought up the pending counselling sessions Friday 6/30 because Counselor needs to know by tomorrow if we are going ahead because she is blocking off an entire half day. I know we're not supposed to have MR talks under the circumstances (She knows I know about A, she has not done anything concrete to convince me she is ending the A completely and unconditionally, etc., I have given her my boundary) but I let myself get sucked in, though I did ultimately end it with "look, this is really not getting anywhere, and it can't get anywhere as long as there is this overlay from the OM/A". Anyway, amongst other things, W copped to being angry at me and breaking up the phone and unfriending on FB as sort of an "Eff You, okay fine I'll do this", even though her primary motivation in doing it was to "give this a shot". She also admitted that a big part of her DIDNT want to do it. Finally, she is very clearly still in an infatuation stage with the OM. Made very clear to me that there is no "spark" between us and she cant see there ever being one or any romance. Says she doesn't believe love can be created/built but that there HAS to be that instant spark or chemistry there and that its just not there for us. Not sure she can ever see us together romantically or intimately. SHe says "my whole life i've done what I've supposed to and then the one time I do something for me that i want... [I love that... the "ONE time", sheesh].. it's something "wrong"". Shes also is still upset with me for snooping/spying, though she hasn't used those nasty/perjorative terms, and says she "understands" why I would do that and that she would probably have done the same thing had the situation been reversed. She also wants to know "how I know" these things, which I still haven't divulged saying "does it really matter? " We talked a bit again this morning, where I offered to tell her "Everything I knew" in the spirit of openness if she really wanted to know, though I didn't see the point since the essence of the situation is known to both of us and talking about the details didnt seem like it would be that helpful to me. She declined to take me up on that, though was still curious to know about how I found out, to which I replied my feeling on that was basically the same-- she knew I had checked up on her at some point, what difference did it make how? Discussing the details would not be at all productive. Fairly short convo which I left at same point MC had left it at our last session: "MC needs to know by tomorrow if we are going to continue. I could commit to the counselling and working on the MR if I knew i can trust you, but right now i don't know if i can and you have given me nothing concrete or tangible that I could rely on, in addition to which you are very clearly hesitant to say you could completely cut the realtionship with the Om" (though I have to admit i am tempted to give her at least some minor honesty points on that one0-- certainly would be easy for her to just say "okay, yes", take a few more outward steps, act committed to the MC, but still keep communication open to the OM. At any rate, then told her "you know where I stand on this. I need something from you if we are going to continue as we have been and continue working with the MC. She was silent, a little teary, and nodded her head, but no response. If she indicates a willingness to go ahead on any level, I will contact MC and tell here and MC is going to try very hard to get her to commit to at least on IC session prior to Friday, and then maybe use part of Friday as IC as well.

Now wondering how long I wait to see if W mentions it. I would prefer if she brings it up, but that is not her pattern. If she says nothing, wonder if I just cancel the sessions as opposed to asking her again? Seems like the way to go.

Oh, a couple of other tidbits. I have of course been continuing to GAL, 180, distance, etc. I went out Friday to shop for something for son's graduation/college send-off, and was going to go to my favorite hangout afterward. W saw me all dolled and cologned up and asked if i could use some company. Normally I would have said "no" but we are kind of in a holding pattern at least until the MC angle is decided, and MC had advised us to "try to go have some fun", so I said "sure". We had kind of nice time, but she was nervous at one point as I was evasive as to where we were going and I think she thought I was going to drive to the OM's hangout, which is in the same direction and not all that far from where I was actually going. Then Saturday, I was going out again because my Friday shopping was unsuccessful. I didn't ask her to come and she was on phone with parents when I left. I was out longer than anticipated, went to my hangout for dinner and couple of drinks. Last night during our long talk she asked me 1) "IF i had not asked if you needed company Friday, were you going to ask me to come along" My Answer: "No" AND 2) "Why didn't you call me from the bar on Saturday to see if I wanted to join you since you knew I'd be off the phone by then" to which I answered "I just wanted some time to have some fun out by myself" Because she asked, I also talked about some of the people (some female) that I met, hungout, and talked with (I am becoming a bit of a regular at this particular establishment.) To me, this all seemed good, as in she's noticing and maybe getting interested, but then, of course, she manages to work into the convo that she "doesn't feel about me the way she should if we were to be a romantic/married couple. In particular, it doesn't bother her to think of me meeting someone else or even sleeping with someone else-- in fact she's be okay with it." Hmmm...

Anyway, right now she's moping up in room. I was at gym about 45 mins longer than i indicated and she seemed a bit ticked when I got hom... "you must have done that longer workout after all."

Now to just figure out if I broach the issue of the MC or if i just drop and cancel it. My sense is that she won't bring it up, and that it might make an impact if I completely rope drop on this one, BUT... at the same time I feel like she is close to maybe being able to completely cut contact to Om and to commit to the counselling, and that MAY BE the MC can get through to her. But, obviously, only if she goes in to see the MC.

Alot to chew on.


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"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Note that in previous post, in first paragraph, there is a SIGNIFICANT typo: "did purport to" should actually be "did NOT purport to make that commitment..."


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I don't know if I read all of that correctly, but you stated your boundary, she still crosses it, but nothing changes. You have to be able to go with the follow-through.

when you were all dressed up and smelling good and she asked if she could come, I think it should have been a no. Leave her wondering where you are you going.

She's still crossing your boundary, but she still gets to hang out with you...... Best of both worlds!!!

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I have a strong, faith-based belief that I am supposed to be giving MC, and, in particular, THIS particular MC a shot. As long as we are "in" that process (and that may very well, as I have indicated, end tonight) and wife can commit to it (her clock runs out effectively tonight), I am going to , for the most part, play it the way she (MC) wants me to. Which means finding SOME time to be sociable/friendly/etc. W knows that I am not willing to "keep doing this". The graduation and the pendency of the MC bought a few days (and, to all appearances, she HAS cut contact-- and if she hasn't it's DEEP underground and i don't know about it) but she knows she has to make a commitment and convince me... like NOW, or i am through


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

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And, again, not saying that I am handling this in the best possible way. I know I am making mistakes. I have a great deal of faith in this MC who is not strictly playing by the DB handbook, though alot of the core concepts she seems to be on board with, and she seems to understand the WW concept and affair addictiveness, etc., very well. At any rate, my faith in her and that process is definitely creating some overlays and muddying the waters a bit, but I am trying to stay the course the best I can. I just have a strong belief that God wants me to be giving this a shot right now so I am giving a good amount of deference to the MC. As I said, though, that mayh all end tonight/tomorrow, in which case I will probably be "going dark" or close to it.


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"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Fact is if she wants to keep up the A, in addition to FB messenger, there's a million other apps.. Even if she keeps up her end of the bargain, you still need to work on you, cause she'll have some working to do to. So giving space is vital in either scenario, and more importantly doing YOU...


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Originally Posted By: hoosjim
I just have a strong belief that God wants me to be giving this a shot right now so I am giving a good amount of deference to the MC.


I'm sure you've heard the one about the drowning man that kept praying to God to save him, and boats kept stopping by and offering to help and he kept saying "no I'm waiting for God to save me" and then he drowned, went to Heaven and asked God why he didn't save him and God said "who do you think sent the boats?" DB and these forums may be your boat.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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That's actually one of my favorite jokes. And, yes, I actually DO believe that DB is one my boats, particularly given the set of circumstances that led me here. However, an equally... scratch that, definitely MORE bizarre set of circumstances led me to this MC. Too much to believe, especially given the particulars, that there was not some divine intent there. Now, maybe her role is to enable me to see that there is "no hope" as things currently stand to facilitate me truly dropping the rope. Or maybe she will save our M. I honestly have no idea. BUT... i AM trying to balance the two as best I can. The fact that the MC, for the most part, seems to understand and buy into the DB paramaters (and she HAS been big on encouraging me to GAL, take care of self) makes it a bit easier, but it is still a challenge in some respects as her default position has been "even if we are not in counselling, try to find some time to have fun together", which is of course contrary to the rope-dropping scenario (though I will note that there have been some well-respected posters on her, GABulldog in particular, who have talked about the importance of being available to "bounce out" and go get a "No MR discussion" drink and have some fun in a noisy bar once your WW gets to "No Contact." Now, I am probably not to full "no contact"... though I might be and am at least REALLY close. At any rate, I'll know by end of week. W signed up, on her own motion, for IC with the counselor this morning. Counselor herself has said
that there is no point no point in continuing the counselling unless W is willing to completely cut contact and end the A, (and preferably provide some sort of verification/transparency to boot to that effect). So, W will either do that in a way that I can trust (burden of proof on her) or we pull the plug on the counselling and I go dark.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Originally Posted By: hoosjim
Too much to believe, especially given the particulars, that there was not some divine intent there. Now, maybe her role is to enable me to see that there is "no hope" as things currently stand to facilitate me truly dropping the rope.


Just try not to put too much hope on MC. I did and it played out just like everyone here said it would. It was too much pressure on W and led to our separation. I too thought it was an answer to my prayers, but it was definitely more of a curse than blessing in the end.

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...as her default position has been "even if we are not in counselling, try to find some time to have fun together"


That's pretty typical advice early on in MC. Ours told us we needed to have a "date night" once a week. That's great advice for couples that are struggling, but not for couples where one spouse is half out the door.

Anyway I'm not saying cancel the MC, I think it would be best if you did but you obviously feel strongly about going and it's not going to be a deal-killer so give it a shot. Just try not to have high expectations that it might be a "miracle cure" for your sitch. Good luck!


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Quote:
It was too much pressure on W and led to our separation.


This interests me. Cant recall and I am on phone with limited search right now whether or not your wife was a WW or whether or not there was an affair. Either way, what is your take on Sandi's idea that the WW usually HAS TO feel some pressure in the form of a loss or feared/perceived loss before she will "come to her senses"?

Because my own W is definitely in a place where she is feeling "smothered/trapped" as she puts it, though largely now because the A is out in the open and she knows that I pretty much know everything and that she has to either shut it down or we're done.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Originally Posted By: hoosjim

This interests me. Cant recall and I am on phone with limited search right now whether or not your wife was a WW or whether or not there was an affair.


My XW worked with a guy who found out his brother was having an A with his wife. He was crushed and XW swooped in to help him recover. Somewhere along the line she started having feelings for him but I'm not sure whether it was an IA or EA. I snooped early on like so many of us do and the conversations between them were 100% friendzone stuff, and in fact it sounded like he was pushing her to try and reconcile. I think after S that they may have had a physical fling for a while but I'm not even sure about that. Whatever it was ran its course after about a year though.

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Either way, what is your take on Sandi's idea that the WW usually HAS TO feel some pressure in the form of a loss or feared/perceived loss before she will "come to her senses"?


I think Sandi is absolutely correct, but sometimes the WAW never does come to her senses so you have to prepare yourself for that as well. There just aren't any guarantees. The beauty of DB'ing is if you really do follow it, then you'll eventually win even if your M isn't saved. You'll be better, stronger, more independent and probably happier than ever before. Anyway the point is don't perform an action to hope for a certain reaction. IE, don't kick her out hoping it will make her fear the loss and come to her senses. Because she might not. Your actions should be based on what you want and not based on how you are hoping the WAS will respond. Does that make sense?


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Quote:
Your actions should be based on what you want and not based on how you are hoping the WAS will respond. Does that make sense?


Yes, it does, and it has, thanks. I guess that's the "fine point" or "fine line" here, isn't it? When does hoping for a particular outcome become overwhelming to your efforts to the point that you are not truly helping yourself but just being manipulative? Is it ANY hope? That movie exchange is funny because it's true-- "I want her back, but to get her back I have to not care whether or not I get her back." Taken to it's logical conclusion, that seems a BIT extreme (and is why it's supposed to be funny, I suppose.)

Can one NOT be 100% "outcome neutral" and still be an effective DB-er?


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Originally Posted By: hoosjim
When does hoping for a particular outcome become overwhelming to your efforts to the point that you are not truly helping yourself but just being manipulative?


Yes exactly, when DB'ing is done as manipulation the WAS sees right through it. Because even though your actions may be one thing, it's very tough to hide the feelings and emotions, especially to someone who's spent years reading you. But that's one of the reasons we say it takes time, because you've got to keep at it until it's not manipulation anymore. And I think if we're all honest here, we ALL start DBing because we're just trying to get our old M back, which is not really achievable anyway since our old M is already dust. But there's a sequence we all go through- first we DB to get the old M back, then we DB hoping to establish a new M with our spouse, then we DB because we want to make the best versions of ourselves that we can no matter what, and finally the DBing becomes a part of us to the point that we're changed and no longer DBing, it's just become our "new normal". What THAT person looks like is enormously different from the emotional wreck that arrived here to begin with. That person is strong, independent, attractive, and happy in life whether their marriage is reconciled or not. That should come as fantastic news to everyone- if you stick it out you win NO MATTER WHAT. Unfortunately when people get here they are so in shock and scared and confused that the ONLY answer they want to hear is that their old M will be restored. A lot of people here do reconcile, but the new M usually doesn't look much like the old one. And it usually takes longer to recon then most people expect.

Quote:
That movie exchange is funny because it's true-- "I want her back, but to get her back I have to not care whether or not I get her back." Taken to it's logical conclusion, that seems a BIT extreme (and is why it's supposed to be funny, I suppose.)


I think DBers can probably relate to that exchange better than most people!

Quote:
Can one NOT be 100% "outcome neutral" and still be an effective DB-er?


Yeah, definitely. The motivation for starting DBing may just be to restore the M, but that's OK. At first you need whatever you need to survive another day, and another. If it's hope that your old M can be restored then so be it.


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So, tonight, the good: She opted, on her own initiative, to set up and attend an IC session. The bad: she retired to the guest room to do her "homework" presumably from the session, and then stayed in there for bed. The unknown: Was pretty late getting home (I didn't ask-- possible she just had to stay late because she took time for the session) and she sought me out as I was having dinner out on the patio to sit and talk and have a drink while I was eating. She didn't talk about her session. Guess we'll find out on Friday. At least i know the MC is firmly in the "if she doesn't cut off the A completely there is no point to going forward with the counselling". I allowed things to go forward until then, but unless there is something new from her trust-wise, don't think the counselling will go past that day, and I will commence going dark.


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Originally Posted By: hoosjim
So, tonight, the good: She opted, on her own initiative, to set up and attend an IC session. The bad: she retired to the guest room to do her "homework" presumably from the session, and then stayed in there for bed. The unknown: Was pretty late getting home (I didn't ask-- possible she just had to stay late because she took time for the session) and she sought me out as I was having dinner out on the patio to sit and talk and have a drink while I was eating. She didn't talk about her session. Guess we'll find out on Friday. At least i know the MC is firmly in the "if she doesn't cut off the A completely there is no point to going forward with the counselling". I allowed things to go forward until then, but unless there is something new from her trust-wise, don't think the counselling will go past that day, and I will commence going dark.


That was her night, what was yours? You should have a GAL activity that eats up your night. Working out, doing some kind of hobby, getting out of the house, etc. Have adventures. Discover new things. Don't sit around the house worrying about what she has going on. It's nothing great, I can tell you that. Cheaters don't have exciting lives, they have seedy sleazy lives. Not what you want to spend your time focusing on. If she's doing some work then good for her. You don't worry about it and stay busy building the best version of you that you've ever been.



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TX Hubby makes a very good point. ALl you post about is what W is doing, MC, IC, her contact, no contact.

HOOSJIM? Get it? Ok, that was corny. What have you been doing for yourself? Your GAL?

I will tell you, I was the worst DB'er. My ex left me for another woman when my daughter was a baby and he was a not good to me for the 9 years we had been together. I was pretty much fed up with the cr@p and I ripped him a new one constantly, which had been building up inside of me for years.

That being said. I did take a lot from DB. I evolved as a woman who looked inside, probably too much. I GAL which I had never really developed on my own. I had good friends who got distanced with life happening and we all came together again. our friendships have been very solid and the best relationships of my life. Through GAL and working on me, I am in touch with who I am. While my dating life hasn't been the best in the 9 years I have been divorced/separated, the way I handle relationships have completely evolved. I do not pursue when I am let go. I used ot have no self-esteem, I begged my ex, I tolerated awful stuff in fear of losing him. I realize now that I lost my dignity. If someone does not want to stay, they can go. Because I am comfortable with me. I have a beautiful life built with my daughter, good friends, activities that interest me, a good career, I am advancing my education......

The two guys I dated somewhat seriously did not end because of me. There were circumstances that simply were huge barriers. but I can walk away knowing I was the best me I could be. Why? Because of the work I did on myself and the life I made for myself.

So, no matter how this pans out, you need a life for yourself. You need to do YOUR work and not worry about your W and her work so much.

My ex married OW. They have been married 6 years. I am civil with both. Because I know who I am now. I am good with me.

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I mostly post about my wife and what she's up to because that is by far the dynamic i understand the least well. I am way more than comfortable with what I am doing in terms of GAL, 180s, etc., so I rarely post about that-- don't see much value added in soliciting input on it and in that regard not sure I need the "Hey, great job, Hoosjim!" because i'm already really comfortable with that AND extremely comfortable in my faith and that God has my back whatever may come.

FWIW, I am an outdoorsman (and was previously, before I went into my deep slumber/coma that so damaged my MR). I hike, I camp, I canoe/kayak, I fish. I have revived my interest in and commitment to those activities. Been training for a three-day whitewater float with just my HS Senior son and myself in a canoe before he goes off to college this Fall. We are taking a float down a river that I have never successfully navigated-- last time i tried my canoe wrapped on a rock, broke in half in 55 degree water, and we had to salvage as much of our stuff as we could and hike our way out (the only public access to the river is at either end of the three day float and there is no cell coverage). IOW, high adventure. I have been working out almost daily, somewhat to prep for that but mostly just because I like being fit and had let inertia, malaise, and minor injuries set in and take me away from that over the years. I am currently in the best shape I have been in since probably before I met my wife at age 26, and I no longer fear seeing myself in the mirror or taking my shirt off at the pool/beach (even though I am 51). God has richly blessed me, I think, with the ability to navigate this fitness regimen despite some limitations (my age, obviously, but also a spinal fusion in my neck that limits my range of motion a bit). I have been meeting people at the gym (I typically go early in the morning, before W is out of house, which was a BIG 180 for me) and out at a couple of the local watering holes that I now frequent on a fairly regular basis. Reconnected with some old friends, the best of which I visit prolly about once a month just to go out, relax, meet folks (he is becoming a "fixture" in his new hometown which is a smaller rural town an hour south of me) and talk about our respective WWs (who are also best friends), but... mostly we chat and socialize, hobnob and (sometimes) dance and flirt (but just a very little bit-- we ARE both still married) with the local ladies. I have also resurrected my interest in music, taking my saxaphone out of mothballs and tuning it-- my plan is to start in getting used to playing it again this week. A couple of new things I want to take up and am in the process of scouting out-- swing dancing and horseback riding. The former because I have never been a great dancer but have always wanted to be better, and the latter because I aim to someday have some land and would want to be able to keep a horse or two. (I grew up in the country on a farm and rode a wee bit as a boy, so I am not completely unfamiliar with the animals.) Is that enough? smile


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I think the biggest issue your having/will have is that your still trying to work on the M. Your going to MC while she's actively in an A, and your basically labeling yourself as plan B.

Don't think of it as go NC or I'm done with this M. It should be more the mindset of you are in an A, I'm done with this M. Maybe in the distant future, if she ends with OM, and doesn't get another, you MAY consider getting back together, but for now I'm done and just worrying about me. (read TXHubby's recent thread on staying M)

The problem with trying to work on the M while she is in the A is that there will never be any real closure. You will likely resent that she didn't suffer any consequences if you get back together (you where there for her as soon as OM was gone), and neither of you will look back on your willingness to just take her right back and find much self respect in that.

I wish you the best, I just think you need to distance yourself from her for a while, the longer the better, whether she ends it with OM or not.


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Hey, I've done that before too, wrapped a canoe around a rock in the middle of a class 3 drop smile I mostly kayak now and I LOVE it!

Your GAL stuff sounds really good, and it helps us to know you're not hyper-focused on your W.

Quote:
So, tonight, the good: She opted, on her own initiative, to set up and attend an IC session. The bad: she retired to the guest room to do her "homework" presumably from the session, and then stayed in there for bed.


I'm not sure that's "bad" so much as "inevitable". Hey, at least she didn't try to kick you out of the MBR. She's trying to create more space, let her have it.


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M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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I think the biggest issue your having/will have is that your still trying to work on the M. Your going to MC while she's actively in an A, and your basically labeling yourself as plan B.


That very well COULD be my biggest issue, but, thankfully, the MC recognizes it as well, which is what this week is all about. I've allowed a little space, here, but W knows that "I am not going to be a the sucker in this relationship" and, specifically, that I am not going to "share her" or carry on as a married couple (or indeed any kind of "couple" as long as the A continues.

The other overlay is that it is not certain WON the "A" continues. Fortunately, at this point, i don't feel like I need to be too concerned with that because the burden of proof is now on her to show ME that it is not. She has til Friday. Until then, I am already playing it cool and continuing as I had been with my own life.


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Anyway, MC says you can tell by the way my W keeps bringing up our past as kind of justification is a big tip off she may not be ready to make that commitment


If the MC understands the mindset of a wayward, then she knows that bringing up the past is all the wayward has to fall back on, as a means to justify their behavior. And, just as you will have to forgive your WW for her betrayal, she will have to forgive you for the past. Otherwise, the R will not heal and be what either of you want.

Quote:
MC says W is "sorry she hurt you" but not sure W has really indicated the sentiment that she realizes what she did was wrong in and of itself.


Unless a W had a revenge affair, I don't believe her intent is to see how to hurt her H. Although she is resentful for things in the past, her motivation for the A is purely self centered. The A is all about what she gets from it. It's about how she feels, not about how it affects her H.

Quote:
MC says W is "sorry she hurt you" but not sure W has really indicated the sentiment that she realizes what she did was wrong in and of itself.


By admitting she did wrong, she has to face what she does not want to face. For me, it was stubborn pride that held me back. The WW has been known to even bargain with the H to pick up where their MR left off before the A.........but she does not want to face the fallout of her own works of destruction. Blaming her H has been what worked for her! If she can't blame him, then she has to accept complete responsibility for the destruction her behavior has caused. She is very resistant to own responsibility, look at the magnitude of hurt she has caused, and deal with the consequences.

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MC does think even if MC does not go forward that we can still try to find time here and there to "bounce out" and go have drinks or something to try to reconnect some, but I am not juiced about doing that and think that is where here advice falls apart a bit.


I agree with you. IMHO, if she continues contact with OM, then going out for drinks to reconnect could only, at best, give some sense of a false friendship.

I can relate to the place your W finds herself. However, instead of my H and a MC trying to get me to commit, I had mentors from the DB board.

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She also admitted that a big part of her DIDNT want to do it. Finally, she is very clearly still in an infatuation stage with the OM. Made very clear to me that there is no "spark" between us and she cant see there ever being one or any romance


My "want to" was definitely not on board with ending my A and committing to my M. Her feelings will not change as long as she is pining for the OM/A. Also, she has operated out of emotions and has depended on them to guide her decisions. So, when her emotions are not on board, she feels as if she would sacrifice her only chance at happiness and "true love" by staying in, what she believes, a loveless MR. Perhaps that it difficult for the LBS to really "get", since they are in love with the wayward spouse. You have to see it as if you were being pressured to live out your remaining days with someone you did not love.......and maybe not even like too much.

Quote:
Finally, she is very clearly still in an infatuation stage with the OM


For me, I began seeing a few tiny cracks in my knight's armor. At first, I ignored that little voice in my head, b/c I wanted the fantasy. Having my mentors relating the information I needed, helped me to see even more cracks. Fantasies are created in the mind, and they have to be fed in order to get the "high". Reality has a way of causing the fantasy to crumble.

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SHe says "my whole life i've done what I've supposed to


Yep, my song & dance, too.

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She also wants to know "how I know" these things, which I still haven't divulged saying "does it really matter? "


Never tell her. She wants to know so that she can be sure to stop that source or leak, and she can continue her indiscretions. The trap is when you are leading the example of being "open" with her, and you reveal your sources of intell. Big mistake! Even when you reconcile, do not tell her. You may not think it matters, but to a woman......it matters! Once she knows, she'll hold it over your head forever. If she starts "guessing" how you know.........do not answer yes or no. It's a trap many H's fall into, thinking he will clear the air.

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To me, this all seemed good, as in she's noticing and maybe getting interested, but then, of course, she manages to work into the convo that she "doesn't feel about me the way she should if we were to be a romantic/married couple. In particular, it doesn't bother her to think of me meeting someone else or even sleeping with someone else-- in fact she's be okay with it." Hmmm...


It's amazing how the WW is always quick to remind her H that she couldn't possibly have romantic feelings for him. As if it never dawns on her that it just might be that he doesn't have those feelings for her! And that part about you sleeping with someone else being okay? I doubt it. Here's the thing. She might be able to deal with you having casual sex with another woman. It might even help take her off the hot seat if you had an affair. What she isn't prepared for is another woman replacing her position in your life
.


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Okay, damn it, so something's come up which I was hoping I wouldn't have to deal with. I stop snooping and Gathering Intel on her over 2 weeks ago. One of the last things I found out, though, was that there was something coming up that she was going to meet her BFF 4 on the 27th, which is today, and which seemed to likely involve the other man. I am assuming that is probably something to do with his birthday since I know that it is this week, remember that we were friends for two years, that I can't remember the exact day. At any rate, she had mentioned any plans to go out today, so I thought maybe she was really trying to be good and put this in the rearview mirror. So just now she calls me and casually mentions that she might meet BFF after work and maybe have a couple of drinks and maybe go to a movie. Or maybe she would just let BFF go to movie after drinks and she would just stay at the bar. By herself. I am pretty sure I know what this is about, although I can't honestly say that I am certain. I do know for a fact that BFF has been a cover for her to meet up with om several times in the past. And that BFF has been a liaison in the past. We are technically any place for she is supposed to be no contacting. We are also in a place where she knows I know the BFF was at least complicit. In the past. We have not fully discussed that angle other than the difficulties she would face in Breaking that friendship. We also have the marriage counseling coming up on Friday where we were supposed to address and resolve the issue of whether or not she is fully committed to regaining my trust and how.

My instinct is to tell her I think she shouldn't go tonight. Maybe even tell her not to go or we're done. Based largely on the fact that I just don't know that I can trust her in BFF together in a situation like that. Particularly with the marriage counseling coming up on Friday. And the fact that she hasn't yet done anything concrete to show me she wants back in my trust. Of course I have some Intel on her that she might be up to something tonight, but I wasn't necessarily going to mention that to her. Or maybe that I should, just obliquely, as in look, I have known for a while you guys were planning something tonight. She already knows that somehow I had been monitoring her she just doesn't know how.

On the other hand, I could just let her go, say nothing, assume the worst, and just go completely freaking dark and cancel the marriage counseling on Friday. Of course that does a sushi is up to no good which I am not 100% certain of comma although my instincts are saying that's what she's doing in my instincts have been pretty good here. Or I could let her go, follow them, and confront the other man, which I have been aching to do so I can put my fist in his rotten nose if I caught him actually with my wife. Okay, maybe I shouldn't do that last one.

Anyone have any input on this? My plan is it stands is just to confront her about it and say look I don't think you should go. Are you committed to regaining my trust or not?


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Listen, I get it, it's like a living nightmare to watch your W go and carry on like a girl gone wild, I lived it too, and I wanted to do anything I could to stop it.. but I found out the hardway you can't, they are going to go on their journey one way or the other. The question is what journey are you going to go on? That's what you can control.

As for suggestions, here are a couple from the last couple of pages of your thread:

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

So, no matter how this pans out, you need a life for yourself. You need to do YOUR work and not worry about your W and her work so much.

Originally Posted By: Coconut


I wish you the best, I just think you need to distance yourself from her for a while, the longer the better, whether she ends it with OM or not.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

She's trying to create more space, let her have it.

Originally Posted By: TxHubby
Cheaters don't have exciting lives, they have seedy sleazy lives. Not what you want to spend your time focusing on. If she's doing some work then good for her. You don't worry about it and stay busy building the best version of you that you've ever been.


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And I should add for past two or so weeks she has been on her best behavior-- hanging around the house, coming home early (except for last night when she had IC session), telling me where she is going to be well in advance and not taking any extended "errand" trips away from house, spending almost no time on FB and minimal time on the phone in general (at least when she is at the house.) She could still, obviously, be talking to OM at work or on any number of phone apps. I had really, really thought that this day was going to slip past, and now... and especially the way it came up (very "suddenly" and unannounced, BFF is not usually in town on Tuesdays unless something special's going on, the place she's talking about meeting is right out near the OM's work and neighborhood, etc.) plus that funny instinct making me pretty sure this is a planned meet up. And, yeah, this is another post about what my WW is up to, but... critical juncture here


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"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Thanks Coconut. Good suggestions all, in general. But here, I "know". And I think maybe she needs to "know I know".


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She asked to go along with you on your night out, you should ask to go along with her smile

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what are your thoughts on backing off from her, focusing on you, and letting her take her journey? Or are you just looking for an answer on how to control her so you can get exactly what you want?

Your going to drive yourself insane if you try and control her, because you can NOT control her. Hell, if you want, just tell her you know she's going to meet OM and you're done... at least that would be different.

But your best bet is to go on the path everyone is trying to lead you to, the one where you give her space, and focus on yourself.


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Quote:
She asked to go along with you on your night out, you should ask to go along with her smile


That's evil. I like it.


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"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Quote:
Your going to drive yourself insane if you try and control her, because you can NOT control her. Hell, if you want, just tell her you know she's going to meet OM and you're done... at least that would be different.


Well, that was actually one of the options I was mulling (and thought I had posted.) I get that I can't control her. But if she won't "control herself", then I am free to walk. That was the whole gist of our discussion a week or so ago.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Originally Posted By: hoosjim
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She asked to go along with you on your night out, you should ask to go along with her smile


That's evil. I like it.


Also brilliant. I second this suggestion.



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Originally Posted By: hoosjim
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Your going to drive yourself insane if you try and control her, because you can NOT control her. Hell, if you want, just tell her you know she's going to meet OM and you're done... at least that would be different.


Well, that was actually one of the options I was mulling (and thought I had posted.) I get that I can't control her. But if she won't "control herself", then I am free to walk. That was the whole gist of our discussion a week or so ago.


But you gotta follow through else it means nothing......

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Originally Posted By: hoosjim
Quote:
Your going to drive yourself insane if you try and control her, because you can NOT control her. Hell, if you want, just tell her you know she's going to meet OM and you're done... at least that would be different.


Well, that was actually one of the options I was mulling (and thought I had posted.) I get that I can't control her. But if she won't "control herself", then I am free to walk. That was the whole gist of our discussion a week or so ago.


So let me ask you this..

why is blowing your M up and then going to work on yourself better than
not blowing your M up and just going to work on yourself?

Why not just go do your own thing? Let her wonder why you are no longer around the house anymore, let her wonder why you're not answering her calls or texts.. those things improve your chances, because she's thinking about you.

If you blow up on her, tell her everything you know and everything she's doing wrong, then she won't want you around her, the only thing she'll be thinking is thank goodness I don't have to deal with him anymore.


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MC wanted us to give it til Friday. I deferred to her and gave her that time-- a little over a week, but both she and W know I want out of this s-show. I figure I am not damaging my credibility too much at least to this point because I am certain W has been behaving herself since then. Today's a test, though.


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C-Nut has an excellent point here. This is about a shift in attitude.

In both cases you're learning how to get by on your own, working on yourself, GALing. But in one case you're closing the door on your M, where you're leaving it open with the other. Which do you want?

I get that it would be satisfying to slam that door. It might help you feel stronger and better about yourself in the moment. But it may be something you come to regret.


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BD:4-23-17
W filed:7-17-17
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Quote:
The WW has been known to even bargain with the H to pick up where their MR left off before the A.........but she does not want to face the fallout of her own works of destruction.


My WW has already made noises in this direction a couple of times. Once, after a lighter moment when we had both laughed long and deeply at something in the middle of one of our recent talks, she said "Sometimes I wish we could just push the pause or stop button on all of this[meaning all the hurtful and painful A and MR talk--I asked and she clarified] and just start fresh." AND then just Sunday towards the end of our long talk: "Did you ever think to yourself that maybe all of this negative and painful talk is actually hurting our relationship. Maybe if we just focused on the positive..."


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Quote:
In both cases you're learning how to get by on your own, working on yourself, GALing. But in one case you're closing the door on your M, where you're leaving it open with the other. Which do you want?

I get that it would be satisfying to slam that door. It might help you feel stronger and better about yourself in the moment. But it may be something you come to regret.


So that's really the question, then. How do you "enforce your boundary" while still "leaving that door open". Seems like a pretty fine line. I certainly wouldn't want her in the marital bedroom, and likely not even in the house (and Sandi seems to agree--In house separation = ultimate cake eating) yet, OTOH, once separated marriages have like a 90% failure rate, I think (yes, yes I know-- "outcome neutral"). I suppose if she doesn't know I know about additional transgressions, just that I don't trust her, I could simply rope drop within the confines of the house. i just dont see, though, if I find out she is ACTIVELY carrying on the A at some point, how I just "wait that out." Seems like she needs to think she could lose me (and that I need to think I could lose her, and still be okay.) But the two are not co-dependent. Seems like having both would be the ideal sitch.


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"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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TxHubby, thanks. Question: I know you stayed in "limbo" for a long time. Too long, I think you said. At any point did you ever actually "put your foot down" or otherwise confront your WW about the A, or did you simply say nothing, drop the rope, and move on with your life. If the latter, during that whole time, did you just live in the same house with her, effectively ignoring everything (including the A)?


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Well, she called once, said she didnt think she was going. Called back 45 mins later, said she was going to go after all. I told her "look, you can do what you want, but right now given where we are I don't feel comfortable about you going out under those circumstances with bff." Some silence but, then "okay, I totally get that... I was thinking about that earlier and it was why i wasn't going to go initially."

Im already on my way out door to get a drink. gorgeous weather.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Ok, I hope you learn from this you can't control her. She IS going to take her journey, how about you grow some balls and start to take yours? So far every move you've made is based on what she does, now it's time to figure out Hoos-jim... I haven't seen Jim in this sitch yet, I hope to see him soon.

Seriously, do you have a friend or family member you can stay with for a few weeks? You need space and time to level out. You need to go dark and find that path your supposed to be on. Tell us about your favorite GAL activities.


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Of course I know i cant control her. What kind of idiot do you people take me for? (Ive been drinking a bit, sorry. smile )

So she joins me at MY watering hole, after I go out. Looking like a million dollars. If she isn't the hottest 49 year old woman in this state I don't know who is. She just kills it. Why, why why why why? I had fun, though. My peeps and the waitstaff, bartenders there know me well. new band which was awesome... met and talked to them. Was a good evening. With WW sitting across from me, laughing, talking, swaying... and occasionally dropping some kind of hint about how she wasn't attracted to me.

My LIFE can be great. I am doing so much, and learning so much, and remembering how to feel FULFILLED and AMAZING... and I can't get past the image of her blue eyes looking at me across the table. And the smell of her perfume, and the sound of her laugh. Damn the woman!


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Originally Posted By: hoosjim

My LIFE can be great. I am doing so much, and learning so much, and remembering how to feel FULFILLED and AMAZING... and I can't get past the image of her blue eyes looking at me across the table. And the smell of her perfume, and the sound of her laugh. Damn the woman!



I don't have much to add except sympathy. It blows that she shows up and acts like this to you. I'd love to hear a female perspective on why she would do this.


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M:18
BD:4-23-17
W filed:7-17-17
(5 months of in-house separation hell)
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Originally Posted By: hoosjim
TxHubby, thanks. Question: I know you stayed in "limbo" for a long time. Too long, I think you said. At any point did you ever actually "put your foot down" or otherwise confront your WW about the A, or did you simply say nothing, drop the rope, and move on with your life. If the latter, during that whole time, did you just live in the same house with her, effectively ignoring everything (including the A)?


I did. At first she was crying all the time and I was raging. I said if I ever saw OM (neighbor) again I'd probably kill him. Fortunately that AP fled the scene, abandoning his wife and kids, and ran off a few states away to live with his mommy. He was a "good" church-going "Christian" man and couldn't face his guilt.

A big problem is that I said I could forgive her right away. I figured after she got busted and lost her job (they worked together somewhat. His company was their external auditors and she was a department director of finance. They both got fired over the conflict of interest and inappropriate relationship) that she would snap out of this and wanted us. Nope. She stayed in the MLC/WW mindset. I came to find out she was out playing online and had met at least one other person, maybe more.

Anyway, I was very passive about the whole thing. I played the role of patient morbidly depressed hubby. I sat back waiting for her to "come around" and stop hurting me so badly. I gained weight, my career suffered, my health suffered. Our youngest child's grades started to suffer. Nobody was driving the ship anymore. WW was always glued to her devices (phone, iPad), started going out with new friends (divorced women), got really cocky about "growing" and "improving" herself (cheated, lied, got fired, great improvements right?). Strung me along. Treated me like crap.

I found this site and started implementing the principles. I'll be honest, I didn't do every step. Sometimes not all rules apply. I was patient, did nothing, but started to work on me. Improve my life. I was going in half way though. Faking a lot of it. I think she could tell. Not much changed. We drug on for over 2 years and in that third I had an awakening. I had just been prescribed Lisinopril because the doctor said my BP was dangerously high (around 205/140). I've never been on any drugs like that. It snapped me out of my own depressed hubby waiting for his wife to come back to him routine. I said F this. NOBODY is worth me dying over. I joined a gym that day. She actually tried to fuss at me for spending the money without consulting her and I took the opportunity to say I'm going to be doing a lot of things without consulting you.

I walked the walk from there on out and so can each and every one of you here. I did a self evaluation spreadsheet on Excel and graded myself on everything. I was brutally honest and didn't like what I saw. Then I made an action plan on how to improve everything I got a bad grade in. Employee, Father, Physical health, Nutrition, Emotional health, etc. I looked for a therapist that could help me plan my life POST divorce. That was my plan.

After about three months I had lost 20 lbs, dressed way better everywhere I went, got my career back on the right path, spent more time with our DD and improved that relationship, totally ignored my WW and left her to her seedy new life. I wanted no part of it. She had a front row seat to my transformation.

Rarely did I have even a minute to talk to her. I literally stopped caring what she had going on. That was the biggest thing that helped me get healthy. Before I'd see her on her phone or tablet and knew she was talking to other men and it was killing me. Literally. After my change I couldn't care less because I knew she was a sleaze and that the men she was talking to were sleazy. I wanted no part of that in my positive new life.

One night she actually tried to seduce me. That had always worked for her. It caught me off guard but my new self took over the situation and it was like I was a spectator watching me handle this with confidence and strength. I basically said no, I don't think so. I have no idea where you've been or what you're carrying these days. No thanks. That blew her mind that that is what I thought of her but it was the truth. I didn't know what kind of sleazy men she was hooking up with. I'm selective. I don't sleep with tramps. I have too much self-respect for that. That is also the moment I knew I needed to divorce this woman. The woman I used to know and married so many years ago, the great wife, mother, woman of integrity was gone and I wanted nothing to do with this WW type of woman. She was gross.

I filed for D and had her served. Her foolish pride consumed her. Her fancy new life was "great". She didn't me. I guess she thought that would manipulate me but filing wasn't a bluff. I wanted out. She kept up her show for a few months. The D was getting closer and I was ignoring her. Not on purpose but because every day my life was filled with activities. After work I'd go to the gym, go ride my bicycle, go meet with friends. Always something. No time for her. She can live in cheaterville. Her armor started to crack. She would ask me more often where I was going. I was always friendly and never combative. I'd say to work out, meet friends, whatever.

Finally she asked that one time and I said out. She said can I tag along. I said nope. As I was leaving she started sobbing and begged me to talk for a minute. Then she broke down like I've never seen a human being break down. She sobbed on the floor uncontrollably. All her cockiness was gone. All her great new cheater life with all her cheating friends was gone. Come to find out she has regretted her choices for some time but was too stubborn and prideful to admit anything. She even admitted that other women were telling her she was really screwing up and was going to lose a good man and that there would be others beating the door down to replace her. One of her "friends" actually said that she would pursue me if my wife no longer wanted me. Don't think for a second that something like that doesn't make a wayward spouse take notice. It makes you a prize to be won.

After that breakdown everything changed. I didn't really comfort her during it because I told her she has to understand that she was the person I used to care most about in this world, I would walk through the fires of hell for, but she hurt me really bad and I had to detach her from my heart for my own health. I told her I'm sorry she's hurting but I can't allow myself to be sucked back in, that I'm doing much better now, and we should move on, and that I wished her the best.

Needless to say, things changed that day. She started owning her decisions. I think she read this site or maybe Dr. Harley's but she stopped blaming everything else in her life and started looking inward. When the D was about 60 days out she asked if we can delay that, not cancel it. That was simple because our state doesn't have a long term separation required before D. You can D any time you want so I figured what the heck, and had my lawyer table the paperwork.

At this point I became the pursued and she was the pursuer. She was the one always concerned about what I was thinking, where I was going, who I was meeting. The roles had reversed because my new life and new self were way better than hers and she wanted in on it. What made her want in even more was that I was on the fence leaning toward not wanting her to be in on it. I was doing very well by then. I had gotten promoted at work, I was in great shape, and I had really positive rewarding relationships going with old and new friends. I wasn't about to let anything interfere with that. Especially a sleazy cheater. I came to find out she had stopped all that months before when she realized what she had become. She had also dropped her sleazy new friends but was too prideful to tell me. She admitted that sometimes she'd dress up and go see a movie alone just to make me think she was going out partying.

As time passed she transformed into a much better person. Even better than she was before her MLC/WW period when I thought she was amazing then.

I'm not saying that all your wives or hubbies will do this. What worked for me may not work for you. I know sometimes it's prescribed to us to do nothing and wait and see. That almost killed me. My BP was in heart attack/stroke range and I felt horrible all the time. 2 years and change is all I could take of that.

Although it was my wife's choice to "snap out of it" and work on herself, I do think seeing me moving on with a great new life was a huge part of that. I had made myself the most attractive version of me that I had ever been. I whole heartedly suggest that anyone caught in the situation that we all find ourselves in do that. If your career is dead end then get a new one or work on the one you have. I went from dead end developer with no future to the boss in just the last 2 years. If you're out of shape, get in shape. Anyone can do that, it requires no special skills. I hate working out on equipment at the gym so I do yoga, cross-fit, and even zumba on occasion. Sometimes I go swimming. Sometimes I ride my bicycle. I bought a pretty nice hybrid bike. It's good for streets and off road. I have friends and we meetup and ride this long trail in the city where we live. I won't give that up. She's now welcome to join me and she does. For a long time she wasn't welcome.

The point being is that I didn't do anything that any of you can't do. I have no special talents in life. I'm just a regular guy who went through a horrible thing like all of you are. Maybe your M will be saved, maybe it won't.

What I'll testify to is that if you do these things for yourself, you'll be fine either way that comes out. It worked for me and brought my wife out of her MLC. She doesn't talk the talk, she walks the walk. I had told her a year or so ago that I didn't believe one word out of her mouth because she had done nothing but lie for a couple of years so if she wanted any chance at all I'd watch her actions and would have to see real and permanent changes.

It's really not hard. Just become the best version of you that you've ever been. Start a spreadsheet or notebook of the things you think you need to address about yourself. If you smoke then stop today. If you're over weight then start a new diet today. If you drink too much then stop drinking today. If you're out of shape then start doing pushups, crunches, and going for walks today. If your clothes aren't "fresh" then go buy new clothes (not too many if you're going to lose weight but dressing better does make you feel better). Work on all the things that you need to and you won't have time to worry about your walk-away or cheating spouses. You'll have too many good things going on in your life to concern yourself with them.

It may work, it may not. Either way you'll be great. Did I drop the rope? Yes, I did at about 2.5 years in. For me that was too long to wait because it was causing me health issues. I think that limbo time limit is different for all of us. If it's killing you like it was me then drop the rope and move on. Fix yourself.

As for the house, we never separated. Separate rooms after I decided I didn't want her in my life any more. As long as I stayed in our master bedroom and occasionally had sex with her she was able to keep me in the limbo state that was killing me. I fixed that by moving out of that bedroom and turning down her offers of sex. I don't sleep with skanks who meet men online for sex romps.

Hopefully I answered your question and I apologize for rambling on but I'm trying to describe my situation in detail and what worked for me. The data is against all of us. By the time we get here most of us end up divorced. You have to accept that going in and don't let that possibility rule your actions. If that happens, it's ok, you'll survive it. You might be better off.

Anyway, end of ramble. Good luck.



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TxHubby,

I know a lot of people have been asking the same thing but if you have a chance can you take a look at my stitch. I am in a similar situation with an in house separation. My wife has been doing her own thing and i have been trying to better myself and GAL. I am at a point where I thought leaving might be the best option but do you think staying under the same roof helped? Thank you for any input you can provide. I found your story to be so inspiring.

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Originally Posted By: PEW1974
TxHubby,

I know a lot of people have been asking the same thing but if you have a chance can you take a look at my stitch. I am in a similar situation with an in house separation. My wife has been doing her own thing and i have been trying to better myself and GAL. I am at a point where I thought leaving might be the best option but do you think staying under the same roof helped? Thank you for any input you can provide. I found your story to be so inspiring.


I think it helped me to stay because it gave her a front row seat to my great new life and the positive changes I was making. She could also start to see that I no longer cared what she was doing. That could also work if you're physically separated but the front row seat, I believe, is more effective. You have to be really "as if" around the house. Have enough going on for real in your life that you have very little time to concern yourself with her. You should get a response from that. I did. Most do.



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Thanks, TxHubby, that is all really great insight. And again I am so happy that you appeared to have weathered the very long storm and come through the other side.

Quote:
I came to find out she was out playing online and had met at least one other person, maybe more.


This is one of the things that makes it harder for me in my sitch, I think, on a number of levels: My wife is not in full-blown "girls gone wild", sleeping around with everyone, etc. mode. In my mind, it might almost be easier if she were. Easier for me to deal with and easier for her to move past. Instead, she seems to have "fallen" for one guy. Perhaps sees it as an "exit affair", but definitely just the one guy. I did quite a bit of snooping at one point and on more than one occasion heard her tell him (though they did have several explicit sex talks) that "it's NOT all about the sex." She wants "intimacy", too, and that "spark" of romance (she became a major consumer of romance novels and hallmark channel romance movies during her long period of being neglected, and had always been soap opera fan.) So, while the WW mindset Sandi describes (resentment, rebellion, disrespect) is DEFINITELY there, and while she IS more inclined these days to go out with her separated friend (bff who is MY best friends separated W) than with any of her married friends, and does, in general, want to "go out" more than she had been, she is not all hot and bothered to just sleep around with anyone. She pretty much feels, to all appearances, that OM is her "soul mate" and ticket to happiness. Which is, IMHO, a pretty tough thing to overcome, especially since the relationship, at least up until her efforts of the past couple of weeks, had just continued to grow and grow. And, to be honest, why the guy IS a low-life (divorced once due to his own infidelity, tried to convince me to hire a hooker for my teenaged son when we were still friends, sketchy job, serial drinker and womanizer, not to mention pursuer of married women and friends' wives) he DOES check alot of her current "boxes"-- makes her laugh, makes her feel beautiful/wanted, spontaneous, likes music, rides a motorcycle, former athlete (my wife was a HS and college athlete), and more. She just really made a connection with him. Yes, granted because of her wayward mindset, but... I think this is a sitch where it will be much less likely for W to take a look at what she's doing and say "this is incredibly destructive and I need to stop." She thinks she's in a love affair (though, TBH, I have never heard her say the word "love") and wants to run away with this guy (or at least that's what she said two and a half weeks ago talking to him).

So now she's apparently making this effort. Cutting contact (at least as far as I know), trying to hang out with me some, etc. And, while I am fairly glad that she has taken those steps, it just feels too soon. She's clearly still sulky/turmoiled/conflicted, obviously does not have any "romantic" feelings towards me, etc. Even if the "no contact" holds up, this is kind of an awkward spot to be in. Feel like I should be demanding some "proof" at this point (and I actually have so demanded), but in terms of interacting with her, not sure where the line is. There was a poster GaBulldog who posted quite a bit of stuff a while back, and had added some nuances to Sandi's 37 rules particularly concerning WWs who had achieved "No Contact." Alot of those nuances concerned not just abandoning them at that point to their wayward mindsets but to try to "be around" and find ways to "occupy their time" some but still without pushing the MR angle/discussions. The nuances even allowed for "nights out" at noisy bars just to get out of the house and ease the pressure without any R talk. Idunno... Alot of that kind of made sense to read, but... I also feel like my own GAL and detachment efforts were and are not fully mature. I have certainly not reached a place of full detachment, and while me W has had time and opportunity enough to notice my changes and my budding new lifestyle, there has not, apparently, been enough time for her to become "attracted" to it (probably due to the dual factors of lingering feelings for OM as well as just not enough time of seeing my changes.)

So im conflicted. The better part of me wants to stick to my guns on this boundary, demand some sort of tangible/concrete accountability from her if she wants to keep trying and, if she doesn't or if I otherwise feel I can't trust her, completely drop the rope (with or without separation, I can see the arguments on both sides, there). OTOH, if she is willing to try to explore our relationship (and, right now, that would not be for "love" but just because of the family, the kids, and because she'd think it was the "right" thing to do and that Maybe, even though she doubts the likelihood of it, we could eventually rekindle something romantic), then part of me's thinking I SHOULD be open to spending some time with her, etc, etc, at least in the sense suggested by GaBulldog.

But by far the vast bulk of experience and knowledge on this site seems to be saying the ONLY way she comes back is if I fully detach and she actively pursues me... which has definitely NOT happened yet.

So maybe Im answering my own questions...


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And, additional thought, not that it offers me any easier a path out of this, but... Quite possible that I manipulated/controlled "us" into this situation. Her trying a "no contact" that her heart is not really into, without feeling the full remorse that would allow her to move into a productive counselling dynamic, and without having had time to really "miss" me, buy into my changes and truly want to come after me AND, on my side, without me having achieved the full level of detachment I likely need to have a fully healthy relationship with both her and with myself.

Of course, stepping back now, especially if she is maintaining the "no contact" is going to look pretty jerk-ish. As would, I imagine, me leaving her by herself all the time stewing at home in her WW mindset while I am off gallavanting around improving my life and having fun. Perhaps the answer is just to acknowledge that we are "not ready" right now, that we should spend some time on ourselves, with the continued understanding that I am not going to live with any further infidelities as long as we remain married/cohabitating.


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I'm with you 100%. I too would no longer tolerate a cheating spouse. That's a firm, immovable, boundary for me. It appears to be for you too. Nothing wrong at all with that. To be told by your spouse they want to work on your M but at the same time staying in contact with their AP is just silly and a waste of your time. Once I found my strength I no longer tolerated that because I was being fed the same line of bull. BTW, I wouldn't worry about them running off together because even though it's not all about sex for her, there's a good chance that it is for him even if he says otherwise. We know men. Most men wouldn't want to get serious with a woman they're screwing that is cheating on her husband because she's not the marrying kind. He wants sex, and will agree with whatever she says that will keep the sex spigot going, but he probably doesn't want to marry your wife. Who would? At this point if you weren't married, and she behaved this way, you probably wouldn't want to marry her either. Neither would I.

Anyway, once I had had enough of working on a marriage with a cheating spouse I moved forward with D proceedings. I realized I was worth too much to tolerate that. I had options and I was going to explore them. This worked for me. It doesn't work for everyone but it is something to consider. Whether you file for D or not does not mean you can't enforce a strict boundary of NO AP's!!!



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hoosjim

is the reason you leave or have her get her own place, financial or because you fear the chances of a recon are decreased?

I ask b/c it Seems clear to me you and your w need enough space apart, for her to notice your changes and to fear losing the new you.

The concern that you'll push her into OM's arms is going to be there for a long time no matter what option you take.

It is too soon to expect her to feel the way you want her to feel, which is why she told you that she's not attracted to you. Yes she enjoyed the power of seeing you attracted to her. But that's part of the underlying issues you guys had before hand.

(I also thought you agreed not to drink around her? May I suggest again, not drinking so much at all, for 90 days? Just to avoid the trap that lies there.)


Anyhow, I'm just trying to help you figure a way to create mystery and detachment that is real and noticeable and I cannot see it happening with you so much into her head and not into your own GAL for real.

Circular discussions about boundaries and no contact just seem a little short sighted.


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Hoosjim,

while I think Txhubby makes a valid argument for his own in house sep, it's not really the same situation.

Plus, while some can do the "front row seat" changes, i think most of us need some geography to detach, and make the changes noticeable.

Otherwise the changes can be too incremental to notice, and besides, you can't put on your highlight reels of GAL with your w right there. Your w w will see you on a daily basis, obsessing, spying, backslides and all.

This really boils down to what you can pull off, which is all about detachment and GAL for real, not for your w. I have witnessed the spinning on this, the spying & obsessing and drinking, and then repeating.


I guess I'm not clear on what "working on the M" means to you and your wife.

And are you 2 clear on that?


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Quote:
Plus, while some can do the "front row seat" changes, i think most of us need some geography to detach, and make the changes noticeable.


Full separation really puts you behind the 8 ball and the numbers bear that out. Like 90% failure.


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Originally Posted By: hoosjim
Quote:
Plus, while some can do the "front row seat" changes, i think most of us need some geography to detach, and make the changes noticeable.


Full separation really puts you behind the 8 ball and the numbers bear that out. Like 90% failure.


Where did you get that statistic?

From what I've seen in the many years I have been here, recons don't happen until there is full separation. Aside from TXHubby, I haven't known one DB'er to recon while living in the same home.

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Quote:
From what I've seen in the many years I have been here, recons don't happen until there is full separation. Aside from TXHubby, I haven't known one DB'er to recon while living in the same home.


Really? Seems to me that's actually quite common for reconciling. I am thinking what you actually meant to say was that aside from TxHubby you are not aware of any reoncilliations involving WWs that did not involve some sort of actual separation. I think there are plenty of marriages in other sitches that reconcile without a separation.

Im looking for the 90% number but cant find it. Just saw it like two weeks ago. Granted there are others. Found 80% right off the bat (which still ain't great, obviously).

Wondering what Sandi thinks, here. Seems like she preaches IHS is no separation at all, but not sure she feels like an actual separation separation is in any way "necessary", but I could be wrong. She herself did not actually separate from her H, either.

I'd like to hear others chime in on this because methinks you are overstating the case a bit. (But, then again, I could be wrong.)


I mean, and I know MWD doesn't preach any "necessity of full separation." Quite the contrary, yes? Except in the "Beyond the Last Resort" and even then it is not required, just a willingness to do so.

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Originally Posted By: Ginger
Where did you get that statistic?

The 10 % succes rate ain't far from the truth. If you Google reconsile after separation you'll find a US statistics website that cites that 87 % of separations lead to D. A small percentages probably R after D so the odds are not on favor here. But then again, why shouldn't hoosjim be in that 13 %, someone has to be ;-)


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Originally Posted By: Ginger1
Originally Posted By: hoosjim
Quote:
Plus, while some can do the "front row seat" changes, i think most of us need some geography to detach, and make the changes noticeable.


Full separation really puts you behind the 8 ball and the numbers bear that out. Like 90% failure.


Where did you get that statistic?

From what I've seen in the many years I have been here, recons don't happen until there is full separation. Aside from TXHubby, I haven't known one DB'er to recon while living in the same home.


I agree with Ginger, full seperation is needed for most.

Its not that I think full seperation is actually needed to reconcile, just that It's rare to find someone in this situation who can see WW on a daily basis and still detach enough to make a difference.. As successful as TXHubby was at getting there, he lived through two years of hell to get to that point... That two years will tear most M's to shreds, shoot I only did it for two months and it really affected me emotionally and physically, not to mention the emotional pain I tried to inflict on her..

I just really feel like living together really limits each other's ability to go on their own journey...


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Originally Posted By: Btrow
Originally Posted By: Ginger
Where did you get that statistic?

The 10 % succes rate ain't far from the truth. If you Google reconsile after separation you'll find a US statistics website that cites that 87 % of separations lead to D. A small percentages probably R after D so the odds are not on favor here. But then again, why shouldn't hoosjim be in that 13 %, someone has to be ;-)


I do doubt that they have a statistic for those who are in house separated. I only know what I know from here.

I agree with coconut. It's rare to reach your full potential of detachment living with a spouse who you aren't with, but want to be with. It's very difficult to focus on you and not her. And you really focus on her.

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Quote:
I agree with coconut. It's rare to reach your full potential of detachment living with a spouse who you aren't with, but want to be with. It's very difficult to focus on you and not her. And you really focus on her.


Idunno, guys. Just doesn't seem all that consistent with the MWD divorce-busting to have a bias IN FAVOR of separation. Nor even with Sandi's guidelines, and she's pretty tough (And I'd note she's another ww who reconciled without a separation). Would love to hear her chime in on this one.


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Physical separation from a cheating spouse frees them up to pursue their seedy life guilt free.



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Hoosjim,

I was confused about the same thing. MWD wants you to sit back and wait out your WS, while working on yourself. But the advice from posters on this site will tell you to drop the rope. It seems to contradict what the book tells you. That has always been confusing for me in regards to DB'ing.


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Quote:
MWD wants you to sit back and wait out your WS, while working on yourself. But the advice from posters on this site will tell you to drop the rope. It seems to contradict what the book tells you.


Hi Tread. Actually, the rope-dropping is entirely consistent with DB-ing from MWDs books. Most particularly the "Beyond the Last Resort" technique or "Last Last Resort" (one or the other, I can't remember.) That technique basically counsels "going dark" or "dropping the rope," as some put it, when the WS/WAS won't end the A and the LBS can no longer take it. I would say a good portion of the folks who come to this site and start posting are at the end of their ropes and have, to that point, not been very successful with the early steps/stages of DB-ing. Many or most also are dealing with "Wayward" wives who, as Sandi often notes, are a different animal than WHs, and more often put you in a scenario where you need to go to the Beyond the Last Resort.

Im probably doing some violence to the idea as I am a relative noob, but by my understanding what Sandi and others counsel is generally speaking not inconsistent with DB-ing... it just assumes a more dire circumstance from the get-go when you have a WS and particularly when you have a WW.

Quote:
I was confused about the same thing. MWD wants you to sit back and wait out your WS, while working on yourself. But the advice from posters on this site will tell you to drop the rope. It seems to contradict what the book tells you. That has always been confusing for me in regards to DB'ing.


Also, just for the record, what I am saying in my response to Ginger and Coconut is that I don't see how/where full "separation" is necessary or even advised for "rope dropping" or "beyond the last resort" or whatever you want to call it. My understanding is that you need to be prepared to do that if necessary, but it is not prescribed and, indeed, has some drawbacks.

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H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Originally Posted By: Btrow
Originally Posted By: Ginger
Where did you get that statistic?

The 10 % succes rate ain't far from the truth. If you Google reconsile after separation you'll find a US statistics website that cites that 87 % of separations lead to D. A small percentages probably R after D so the odds are not on favor here. But then again, why shouldn't hoosjim be in that 13 %, someone has to be ;-)


Not sure about that statistic for 2 reasons.

As of the last time I researched around here, it was not the in house sep that lead to the most recon

and moreover, 1/3 of the divorces actually filed in CA do not lead to divorce, so the idea that 90% of people who sep end up divorced, is at least false in that state.


Just food for thought and I really think these stats are hard to come by accurately.


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Originally Posted By: Tread
Hoosjim,

I was confused about the same thing. MWD wants you to sit back and wait out your WS, while working on yourself. But the advice from posters on this site will tell you to drop the rope. It seems to contradict what the book tells you. That has always been confusing for me in regards to DB'ing.


Being patient and "waiting it out" is only part of what you should be doing. It's not passive. Just sit back, do nothing, and hope for the best. While you're "waiting it out" you have to be very pro-active about your own life. You can't control your spouse so don't try. Leave them to their choices. You can control you. Just detach from them, even if in the same house, and put your own plan into place for your future.

I think that is the miscommunication sometimes. I tried the passive waiting it out and it was soul crushing. I wasn't doing it right. I was waiting, but I wasn't truly executing my own plan for my life. My thoughts and actions still revolved around her and if she'd want me again. It consumed me. It'll kill you.

The proper way to wait it out is to get yourself moving on YOU and disregard what they're doing. Once you get a solid plan in place and fill your time with positive things that are working toward a great future for you then you won't have near as much time on your hands to "wait it out" and it makes being patient much much easier.

I may seem contradictory because I did file for D but that was after years of waiting it out and I was finally so detached that filing for D didn't bother me a bit. Staying in the M at that time was a hindrance to my great new life so I was going to remove that hindrance.

If waiting and seeing is too painful it's because you're not doing it right. Detach from the spouse you're waiting on, be friendly, be cordial, but DON'T let them cause you heart pain. Detach. It's for your own health. Don't give them ultimatums or engage them in any way about your relationship. Let them go. Even if you stay in the same house, let them go. Focus instead on you. Make plans for your future. Execute those plans. Have fun, set new career goals, set new personal goals, eat better, exercise, do hobbies, renew old friendships, make new friendships. Fill your life with positive activities and time will fly. You won't even notice you're still "waiting and seeing". That's how you do it correctly.



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Originally Posted By: hoosjim

Full separation really puts you behind the 8 ball and the numbers bear that out. Like 90% failure.


Statistics don't tell you why though. I just said this in another thread, but I am convinced that after S, the LBS finally lets go and moves on and THAT is why the success rate is low, the LBS. When the WAS finally wants to recon, guess what. The LBS says "why should I take this liar/ cheater/ heartbreaker back, I've moved on and healed, do I really want to risk going through all that pain and agony again?" And for most of them the answer is no. I was a model DBer, and yet when it came time to fish or cut bait I was the one that pushed the D through, not my XW. Even the best DBers eventually get tired of the BS and decide it's time to get on with life. I also mentioned in the other thread that when I was going through S I polled my D'd friends and family and asked how many of their WAS's tried to recon. I was astonished to hear that every single one of them did. A few of them took their spouse back, most of them did not. And the reasons they gave were what I mentioned above- "by the time he/ she wanted to come back I was done and had moved on."

Don't put your faith in statistics. Put them in your own abilities. You have a very good chance of being in the 10% if you are willing to put in the work and be patient.


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TxHubby,

Thanks for that explaination. Been waiting for months for someone to break that down.

AnotherStander,

What you mentioned is exactly what I am afraid of. If my W decides that she is just going to mess with various OM for whatever reason. Then why would I take that back whenever it seems like she was out there spreading it for everyone? One guy can be forgivable. But when you cross the line with multilple, which I feel may end up happening eventually. I don't see myself wanting that in a W. Because I wouldn't have married someone like that to begin with.


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I am not telling you what to do, only what I have seen.

Being in the house rarely gives a chance for the WAS to miss them.

For most, coming to the point where you don't care what the WAS is doing while you are living under the same room and reaching full detatchment rarely comes under the same roof of a cheating spouse. ANd you spend ALOT of time in her head.

TX HUbby proves it not impossible. But it takes ALOT. It's really all a matter of not if it gets her to notice you, it's what route will be the best for your to become fully detached and the best you possible.

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I'm kinda with TX hubby here, and for one basic reason-- As he said, much harder for her to carry on her cheating lifestyle guilt free under my roof. In fact, I don't wanna make it at ALL easy for her. OM is relentless, has almost no time commitment job wise, can basically come hang out with her whenever, and, quite frankly, leads a very carefree gun party lifestyle that right now she finds very attractive. So I see no reason to make it easy on her to carry on this A if I don't have to. HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT... I am more than willing to separate if that ends up being the only way to enforce my boundary and if she won't cut contact(though right now it kinda looks like she has)


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Originally Posted By: Tread

What you mentioned is exactly what I am afraid of. If my W decides that she is just going to mess with various OM for whatever reason. Then why would I take that back whenever it seems like she was out there spreading it for everyone?


Yup exactly. Here's the thing with BD- it makes the WAS remember nothing but bad things about the M and it makes the LBS remember nothing but good things. They both have rose-colored glasses firmly in place and only see half the picture. Ironically it's opposite halves. With time, the WAS starts remembering the R wasn't all bad. And the LBS starts remembering it wasn't all good. The glasses come off eventually and the WAS starts asking "do I really want out of this R?" while the LBS asks "do I really want that R back?" There are quite a few recon stories on these forums and one thing they all have in common is showing how piecing is the hardest work of all. It is actually much easier to walk away (not at first, we want to cling to them with a death grip, but eventually). Pretty much all LBS's get to that point of being content with never looking back, but it takes a while.

Originally Posted By: hoosjim
So I see no reason to make it easy on her to carry on this A if I don't have to. HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT... I am more than willing to separate if that ends up being the only way to enforce my boundary and if she won't cut contact(though right now it kinda looks like she has)


Great stuff Jim, one of the strongest statements you've made!


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Sigh. I am so frikking bad at this.

Sum total of situation appeared to be that she was cutting contact with OM, though, oddly, without fully "committing" to cutting all contact. If that makes sense. She was doing all the right things, and OCCASIONAL monitoring was not turning up any "infractions", but she was still hesitant about unequvically committing to cutting all contact forever, still defensive about having to do so, and still resentful of the things I'd done to hurt her and effectively make it so that the "Relationship was Already Over" when she involved OM. Meanwhile, I had been doing pretty well at GAL and distancing, the latter of which when I did two weekends ago really drew her toward me.

Fast forward to Friday 6/30. Counselling session again tearful. She reiterated for the millionth time how she had no feelings for me, couldn't see herself ever having feelings for me, and wanted that "special spark" and "chemistry" as well as a laundry list of things in a man that pretty much describe OM to a "T". She did come forth with some more details about the A, defended the OM as a "good guy" on a couple of occasions and, most importantly, had an outright "angry" moment with me where she all but blamed the A on me, even as she "recognizes that it was "wrong" to do." Also said based on all of the above that she is not sure she wants to continue with efforts to work things out (which is kind of where I am.)

Based largely on belief that we were in "no contact" with Om, or at least very close, MC advised us to stop thinking/talking about worst case scenarios (ie what we would do in event of a D) and start thinking about what a reconciliation would look like. Asked us to not make any decisions on MC going forward until after the July 4th weekend during which we had a family vacation planned. She indicated we should go out a couple times, try to "Be in the moment" and just have a good time and then talk when we go back. Well, we did that for the most part, although W was on phone constantly texting/calling with her bff with whom she had previously planned a weekend beach getaway for the latter half of the July 4th week.

Anyway, my efforts and self-improvements and everything pretty much completely unraveled. W showed up when we went out Monday night and she just looked smoking. I mean like better than she ever has, even when we first met and she was only 23 years old (she's 49 now and has just gotten better looking all the time.) But... smoking. We had a good time, spent all evening out, had a few, but not too many drinks, and went back to hotel. Only glitch was that she disappeared into bathroom for 30 minutes to talk on phone to bff. Back at hotel, she changes into a nighty, slides into bed, and starts talking about how cold she is. I cave and offer to warm her up... no pressure for anything more... and am of course rejected. Bad enough to get used for sex or get made out with as a temperature check, but I got sucked in so easily she didn't even have to touch me. In addition, trapped in a hotel with kids in next room and a commitment to have a family vacation of sorts for 5 days, very little opportunity for me to be getting out and distancing, doing "gal" stuff, etc. I managed to get out of room a couple of times in evening for walks, worked out once, and went to the corner beach bar one evening solo, but that was about it. So, strike two there.

Finally, my "tough" stance on she has to "prove" herself trustworthy completely fell apart. She played wishy washy all week on beach plans with bff, saying she "wasn't sure she even wanted to go" and would probably just "come home with us". (As a reminder, bff has been an enabler and "cover story" for the affair for the past few months.) That changed to "if I DO go I will come home with you guys first and then just go for a couple of nights. I had not talked to her about it yet, thinking she would reach out to ME to discuss it, knowing how I felt given the affair, etc., and what I had said about her needing to "show me something" to prove herself trustworthy. Well, she managed to evade and such until we were all the way home... and then packed her stuff and left early this morning (Thursday) to return Saturday. When it became clear what she was doing, I approached her at bedtime last night and basically said "Were you planning on talking to me about your plans, where you were going to be, when coming back, etc?" She seemed annoyed that I had brought it up (yes, granted she was already in bed, though not yet asleep). Her stance was that she HAD shared stuff with me... she had "let me see texts" between her and bff about the trip, she had talked about going down herself from home and NOT going with bff which would have "trapped" her there for four days.. had been "planning the trip for months" etc. etc. All of which was basically true, but... all things she did obliquely without coming to me and saying "Hey, how do you feel about me taking this trip, here are my plans" (and she KNOWS how I feel about this because I told her last week I wasn't thrilled about her taking the trip). But, In sum, I completely fell apart. Ended up acknowledgeing what she had done in terms of showing me texts and limiting trip, kind of apologized to her "if I seemed like I was harping on it" but that I would prefer she came to me as I didn't always want to be the one seeking out info and trying to drag it out of her ("But Im not trying to hide anything", she says), and then did NOT mention the affair explicitly nor insist on er doing something tangible to try to restore some of the trust between us. Just told her, "you know I am trying to "process this" (As if it were MY fault) and it doesn't help when you are not telling me things."

Anyway, she left this morning, did call with the name of the place and the location, and texted me a few times during the day. No way to know whether OM is there at beach with them or if there will be a meet up, but I DO know he is also out of town this weekend, so he COULD be there. Last contact I know of for sure is that wife sent (or tried to send him) a birthday card and present a little over two weeks ago. Don't know if hes been contacting her on phone apps or at work or not, BUT... I will say that while W has been mopey, she has not been so full-on depressed teenager-like that I think she has actually cut contact with "Mr. Wonderful."

Just pretty disastrous week, IMO. Think I need to regroup, and when she comes back I just need to say "The past couple weeks have been crazy... a lot of extra stuff going on but... nothing has changed. I still have no reason to trust you and you have given me no reason (though she has, to pretty much all appearances, cut contact with OM even as I can't confirm in a lot of respects including what's going on this weekend.) Running off with your bff, knowing how I feel about that and knowing what role "weekends with the girls" have played in the recent past in the A, was just not the way to rebuild our trust."

And then I just need to go completely dark WRT her and get on with my life.


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Oh man, that reeks.

Look, I'm confused.

Is the only reason she is 'trying" to stay married b/c she doesn't want the boys to know about OM?

I'm asking you, not claiming it. But IF that's the biggest factor, then IMO, it won't last.

I would think She will justify her choices (as she already has). Maybe she will eventually share those justifications with the boys. I don't get the sense that she really wants to reassure you of her commitment to the m. In fact I sense that she is working herself out of the m.

Even if she's not seeing OM this weekend, she's not making the effort she needs to make to be "all in."

Maybe You want to believe her so badly that you're chomping on the scraps she throws your way, even in the face of serious doubts about her trustworthiness.

Not a recipe for lasting happiness.


As for the affair, it's one thing to think you are in a solid & satisfying m only to learn later that you were in a very different m than your spouse was.

Versus hiding our heads in the sand hoping things will magically improve and get better, until they get worse.

I think it's more shocking to have the first scenario. But it hurts either way.

So How can you show your wife she is losing you?

Because right now that's not what you are projecting.
IOW, I think the only way your w can see the light is by "losing" you. Might not work but imo, nothing else has a chance. You're not "Nicing" your way back in, and as long as the changes you are making are real and for you, then dropping the rope for real is about all you can do...but that means taking control of your life and moving forward.

you can keep the door open a crack or unlocked, but you must stop staring at and obsessing about HER choices/feelings/plans. Get back to you. How are the GAL meeting new different people? Man, I know it'll help you a whole lot more than having drinks with the same crowd & feeling bad about yourself.


The one clear thing in your situation, to me, is that your course of action to save your m

is the exact same course of action to take if you want to move forward in your life.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
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Jim, I'm sorry it didn't go better, but as far as backslides go I think you handled the interactions with your W fine. Frankly I think it was cruel of her to bait you by coming to bed with a slinky nighty on and complain about being cold only to reject you like that, I mean temperature checks (no pun intended) are one thing but that is just blatantly messing with your feelings. I completely agree with you that you need to use this to regroup. You were doing well with GAL and now this experience has your emotions swirling all over again, so go back to what was working for you- detach. GAL. Leave your W to her mess.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Even if she's not seeing OM this weekend, she's not making the effort she needs to make to be "all in."


I agree with 25, it sounds like she is still fully checked out. All of the texting, the going away on a trip thing, the clear rejection in bed. She's not trying at all. She's still getting her ducks in a row for her fantasy "perfect" life without you.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
So How can you show your wife she is losing you?

Because right now that's not what you are projecting.


EXACTLY. Right now you are projecting that you are a very solid Plan B, and that's where your W will keep you. She's got to think she may lose you. And that's the hard part. You can't just pretend she'll lose you, you have to get to the point where you truly are detached and are happy to go through life with or without her. So get after that GAL, and quit giving her these opportunities to spoil your new attitude!


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Is the purpose behind these recent pros & cons on in-house or physical separation due to you feeling compelled to enforce your boundary? B/c this is not the first time you've brought it up.

Here is what I see. Like most LBH's you are not detached, therefore, it is very difficult for you physically S from her. It's almost like you want permission to remain in the house with her. You fear that physical S would lead to D, so you mainly want a way out of having to stand behind your boundary. Although, I can't remember you actually telling her you would leave, but it is what YOU saw as enforcing the boundary.

Since I'm late to the party, you may be in a different place by now. However, I notice you go through this same thing when you suspect she is going to see the OM. I don't blame you for not wanting her to meet with BFF. She has been attempting some form of accountability or transparency? If she has truthfully had no contact with the OM, she has to be feeling pretty ripe for the taking about now. However, jumping to conclusions without knowing for sure what she's doing, could end badly. I would leave the "committed or not committed to the M" for the MC Friday. If your WW and her BFF don't engage in inappropriate behavior, then you might shoot yourself in the foot. Yes, this is a test, and there will more to come.

Quote:
So that's really the question, then. How do you "enforce your boundary" while still "leaving that door open". Seems like a pretty fine line


You make it sound as if everyone has the same boundary, and there is only one wat to enforce it. Did you tell your WW that you would separate from her if she did not end the A? Yes or no?

You cannot give the WW the appearance that you are leaving the door open. B/c as long as she knows you are holding the door open........she will not believe she is losing you. That's why I can tell you are afraid to really drop the rope, go dark, separate or whatever. It's YOU that wants the door to stay open.

Txhubby can correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw him becoming the walk away husband. Actually, I see H's doing this quite frequently, but the thing that bothers me is the span of time and the abuse the H takes before he decides he's had enough. If only he would have had that attitude when he first discovered the W's affair, his self respect (and her respect for him) would not take such a beating. Txhubby did not care about leaving the door open, b/c he was fed up and would not take anymore cr@p, and.....his WW knew it.

LBH's are too careful to assure the WW that he doesn't want a D, and wants to work on the M. If not for her wayward mindset, maybe this would be okay. But she is wayward and the more her H "reminds" her that he still wants her.....the less she cares.
It equates to how she manages to remind him she has no romantic feelings for him and can't imagine ever having desire in the future. It bugs the mess out of him when she drops those little stingers on him, but he's doing the same thing to her by dropping his "I don't want a divorce".

Quote:
There was a poster GaBulldog who posted quite a bit of stuff a while back, and had added some nuances to Sandi's 37 rules particularly concerning WWs who had achieved "No Contact."


He use to try to discredit almost anything I said (which started a long time ago when I disagreed with a particular advice he gave), and I felt his intentions were really to tear down the 37 rules. Anyway, I didn't bother to reply. Maybe I should have, b/c obviously it caused confussion. Let me say this once again, the 37 rules are guidelines (based on MWD's book DR) for a newcomer who does not know what to do when he arrives on the board. Some people who have not reconciled, continue to use them (ex: Vanilla). They are NOT designed for the piecing stage of the marriage. Your problem, Jim, is that you don't know where you stand in your MR, and that's why you bring up all these things and say she doesn't really fit the mold. Many LBH's bounce around, looking for something that fits their own actions (or lack thereof), rather than their W's behavior. They decide being the H to a WW requires tougher love than they want to do (like enforcing blundsries), so they decide she's a WAW b/c he was such a bad H. Some will look over the MLC forum and see people who are staying in the home as their spouse continues bad behavior. Then suddenly, they decide their W is having a MLC and is not a WW at all. I don't think it has anything to do with their W. They shop around for the label they feel comfortable having, and b/c they are too weak to say, "Enough, I won't take this cr@p any longer". I'm not saying you are looking for some type of way out of enforcing your boundary, Jim, but I think you are close to forsaking the board. This has happened many times, too. The H gets frustrated and wants a way out. In order to save face, he stops posting and leave the board. This is why we can't give anyone stastics about how many M's are saved, b/c we don't hear the endings. People just quit, and we don't hear the ending.

Your W may not be your description of a GGW, and that's good. Whether it's an exit affair or whatever, she is still wayward. Whether she's in love with OM or soul mates, she's still wayward. I think you are trying to find loopholes.

Sorry, this post is getting too long. I'll move along and try to catch up.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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what she said^^.

Footnote, - the only wrinkle in your situation, which is not a rare one, is that you knew you were in a rocky marriage before the A, & you felt you played a significant role in the troubles.

I'm not going to argue that with you.

From your description, your w did the heavy lifting in the m and then she began to quit.

Your slightly unique twist is that you informed the "friend" you had, about the marital issues and he became the OM. Lesson learned.

But I don't see how that changes Sandis' & our advice to you, at all.

YOU still have your work to do which was/is to show you're a h only a fool would leave.

But that's not for your w!
(I mean, maybe it will be way WAY later...)

It's b/c you want to be a great husband/father i.e. - you want to be a GOOD MAN - b/c that's what YOU Want. You seek self actualization and that's a great goal!

If you know you've made authentic changes, then you've cleaned up your side of the street and that's all you can do inside the marriage.

Now, you move forward as if you don't have a committed wife, b/c that is the ugly truth.
-
Like I said, this is not complicated. I know the situation Is acutely & painfully difficult.

But there is clarity in your situation.

I know You want an answer that is easier, an answer with less pain. Believe me, I know this. cry

but a less painful choice, a less terrifying option, does not exist. -

You have to deal with the cards you were dealt.

We are all rooting for you.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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jim, it sounds like you're making progress with W, but she's fighting it the whole way. I remember you mentioned about her showing up at your favorite place looking all good, and dropping hints about not wanting to be with you. Now the nightie incident is more of the same. This seems to be her MO - she enjoys rubbing things in your face and shooting you down.

I don't bring this up to make you overanalyze it, but just be aware that it's likely to happen again. Be ready for the next time, and try to show her that you won't be a victim again.


Me-47,XW-43
S13,S16
M:18
BD:4-23-17
W filed:7-17-17
(5 months of in-house separation hell)
W moved out:1-6-18
D granted:2-15-18
Decree signed:3-29-18

Your future is out there. Go find it.
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You know what? Maybe the door will be open one day, maybe it won't be. She doesn't need to know you are leaving the door open. If she wants in, she will try.


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Originally Posted By: Coconut
I think the biggest issue your having/will have is that your still trying to work on the M. Your going to MC while she's actively in an A, and your basically labeling yourself as plan B.

Don't think of it as go NC or I'm done with this M. It should be more the mindset of you are in an A, I'm done with this M. Maybe in the distant future, if she ends with OM, and doesn't get another, you MAY consider getting back together, but for now I'm done and just worrying about me. (read TXHubby's recent thread on staying M)

The problem with trying to work on the M while she is in the A is that there will never be any real closure. You will likely resent that she didn't suffer any consequences if you get back together (you where there for her as soon as OM was gone), and neither of you will look back on your willingness to just take her right back and find much self respect in that.

I wish you the best, I just think you need to distance yourself from her for a while, the longer the better, whether she ends it with OM or not.


I'm going to refer back to a post I made to you about two weeks ago, which kind of goes right along with Sandi2 saying that you don't know what stage you are in, which is the exact trap I got stuck in...

There needs to be real closure on the affair, and what you are posting reads to me more like there has either been a "postpone while under the microscope" or may even still be actively going on further underground.

She needs to want you back, and I think that will be delayed as long as you are always there for her. One thing that I find in common with those who go the route similar to the one you're on, is that they never feel like their WW had to work to earn them back. Years of piecing go by and they still have that feeling, like they never stood up for themselves, their self worth, and took her back as soon as she broke down because she regretted what she had done..

But it's not necessarily a healthy way to start over, it creates even more resentment because they analyzed every action she did for so long, and so they didn't just have to work past the A, but had to work past on this day you did this to me, and on that you day I couldn't believe you did that..

Lets say you continue on your current path for another year, and during that entire year she secretly continues her A with OM, then in a year he gets tired of her and dumps her, and she then breaks down to you and wants to get back together with you... would you take her back if you knew she was seeing him for that year? would you require that she tell you everything that went on in that year, would you question every little thing she did or said for that year? Do you think feeling betrayed like that would help you put in the work for a healthy R?


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
10/31/16 - We sold house
01/10/18 - D Finalized
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Quote:
So she joins me at MY watering hole, after I go out. Looking like a million dollars. If she isn't the hottest 49 year old woman in this state I don't know who is


Every LBH's W on this board has the hottest woman on the planet. Just ask Coconut about his. wink

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She just kills it. Why, why why why why?


I don't understand the question.

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With WW sitting across from me, laughing, talking, swaying... and occasionally dropping some kind of hint about how she wasn't attracted to me.


She doesn't have to look below your waiste to know she is turning you on. Thus the punches about her having no attraction for you (which was mean). After all, her purpose was to temp check. Obviously, she did a good job!

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Originally Posted By: hoosjim

My LIFE can be great. I am doing so much, and learning so much, and remembering how to feel FULFILLED and AMAZING... and I can't get past the image of her blue eyes looking at me across the table. And the smell of her perfume, and the sound of her laugh. Damn the woman!


Originally Posted by Holding

I don't have much to add except sympathy. It blows that she shows up and acts like this to you. I'd love to hear a female perspective on why she would do this.


Some women find it to be a lot of fun to tease, especially in public when the man knows it can't turn into more (having sex). She feels safe b/c it's a public setting, and she can play and tease his attraction for her..........and know he can't throw her down on the floor and have his way with ner. She knew what she was doing, and she taunted him by reminding him how she was not attracted to him. That was cruel. What he should have done was to walk out and leave her hot body and blue eyes sitting alone. (Actually, when she left him to spend 30 min on the phone, was when he should have walked out). This was just another side of bad behavior. As noted, when they were alone in bed.....the scene quickly changed before he could even touch her.

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She just really made a connection with him. Yes, granted because of her wayward mindset, but... I think this is a sitch where it will be much less likely for W to take a look at what she's doing and say "this is incredibly destructive and I need to stop." She thinks she's in a love affair (though, TBH, I have never heard her say the word "love") and wants to run away with this guy (or at least that's what she said two and a half weeks ago talking to him).


In most every case, the OM is a moral lowlife. B/c of her wayward mindset, she overlooks the important points......and she confuses his inappropriate behavior as him being a "bad boy", and it turns her on. He often is the opposite of her H.......and her own former standard of values. That's what I'm trying to explain about the wayward mindset. It all goes against who and what she once was.....(unless you M a wayward woman). Her H could say or do some of the same things to her.....and she would not be turned on, like she is when it's from the OM. That often is mind blowing for the H, but he is trying to make sense out of a woman's illogical mindset.

Jim, you are afraid she has truly fallen in love with this guy. You think your stitch is exceptional. Everyone feels that way about their own. B/c it is so personal and painful it's hard to see it as an observer. So many things you describe in your W are exactly the way I was. I did not want to see the bad in the OM. He made me feel beautiful, smart, sexy, etc. I wanted to hang on to the thrill I felt with him. I had been neglected for years, too. I had so much resentment it would have taken a wrecking ball to make a dent. And pride.......my gosh, I had so much stubborn pride! Yet, in spite of all this that was going against the M, I was able (with a lot of help) to come back off the ledge, end my A, and work on my M. I don't think the WW necessarily sees how destructive her behavior is....until she starts experiencing consequences. She's like a rebellious teenager who won't change until she has consequences for her decisions. So far, I have not seen any consequences for her behavior. Just like that night in the bar when she was spending so much time texting (which I thoroughly despise and think is totally disrespectful to the person/people you are with at the time). You could have set a small boundary then and said, "I have decided that from now on when a lady is with me, that I will not wait around while she spends time on her cell phone".

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she is not all hot and bothered to just sleep around with anyone.


Loopholes.

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She pretty much feels, to all appearances, that OM is her "soul mate" and ticket to happiness.


Yes, I did too.

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So im conflicted. The better part of me wants to stick to my guns on this boundary, demand some sort of tangible/concrete accountability from her if she wants to keep trying and, if she doesn't or if I otherwise feel I can't trust her, completely drop the rope (with or without separation, I can see the arguments on both sides, there).


This is where she has you over a barrel. You don't know if she is in or out. You say she is apparently "making this effort". What effort? To be with you once in awhile, when it suits her? You have taken down your sources of intel......and you assume she has cut contact? In the meantime, she is a lot more married to the BFF than she is to you! If you told her tonight to chose BFF or you......she would pick the BFF! Look, she comes back from a holiday vacation with her family, only to want to straightway leave for more days away, only this time it's with BFF? That smells of rotten fish to me. Does she have a job, or any responsibilities? Tell me that every wife & mother takes a few days out of nearly every week, or even every month, to be away with some BFF......and I will tell you that you are deceiving yourself. That woman is cheating on you! She is not serious about ending her A, and she's not working on her M. She is playing you.

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OTOH, if she is willing to try to explore our relationship (and, right now, that would not be for "love" but just because of the family, the kids, and because she'd think it was the "right" thing to do and that Maybe, even though she doubts the likelihood of it, we could eventually rekindle something romantic), then part of me's thinking I SHOULD be open to spending some time with her, etc, etc, at least in the sense suggested by GaBulldog.


What you have failed to recognize...... maybe due to how it was countering most of the 37 rules, is that his nuances was more like an attack by trying to delibertly shred what I had stated in the 37 rules, and I felt it was done in retaliation to some previous head-butting. Remember, the 37 rules are simply bullets points, and I have had to give further explainations for several people who did not understand. No problem doin it. Anyway, I did not succumb to the temptation to respond to the "nuances", b/c I felt it was bait he had purposely set (due to the timing in which it occurred and previous encounters). Anyway, I have tried to stay away from further unpleasant dealings, but since you've pulled this up, I feel I need to respond to you feeling conflicted. It would have served a much better purpose if the "nuances" had been presented as stand alone guidelines instead of confusing newcomers, the way it has you. They could be guidelines during the time NC was established and the WW is going through withdrawals. (I read them only once, but from what I recall, that is the only time they would work with a wayward). I fully agree about spending time together, once it is established that she has ended the A and is in NC and is willing to do the right thing about her MR. The key word is if she is "willing" to do the right thing........and if she is, then you would probably be in the piecing stage. You are not in piecing, Jim. You are in limbo! You are trying your best to find a loophole that grants you permission to forget about your boundary and stay where you are........b/c that's where you want to be. When you get fed up enough.......you will be like Txhubby and no hole in Texas would be large enough to keep you with her bad behavior. She would either prove her loyalty to you, or you would be gone. Why is that so complicated? B/c you've made it complicated. You want to see things from her that is not really happening.

I even encouraged you to see what the MC could do b/c she sounded promising, only to see that she tells you that at the next session she is going to get a commitment from your W or know where she stands. Next session comes, and you go home, no better off. She has not stuck by all those big claims she made before you invested in those meetings. mad If anything, waiting around (which is code for putting up with WW cr@p) has made things worse, b/c WW sees you tolerating her A. MC has done nothing to change this fact, as far as I can see.

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The nuances even allowed for "nights out" at noisy bars just to get out of the house and ease the pressure without any R talk. Idunno... Alot of that kind of made sense to read, but...


Funny you said this ^^^^^* b/c I think it was shortly after I firstI posted the rules (at that time I only had 34) when I specifically wrote the one about staying away from bars. The man that prompted me to write it, was a person much like you, Jim. He would start drinking and it led to other problems he would have been a lot better not encountering. I had also read several stories from H's who would go to bars and they would not handle temptation with women. It led to all sorts of issues, and mainly.....tearing apart their stand on cheating. I suppose this is one of the bullets I should have expanded, about going to bars without your spouse when your M is on the verge of D. To me, that makes sense! smile

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while me W has had time and opportunity enough to notice my changes and my budding new lifestyle, there has not, apparently, been enough time for her to become "attracted" to it (probably due to the dual factors of lingering feelings for OM as well as just not enough time of seeing my changes.)


For years, I preached about improving yourself and becoming an attractive man to the wife. I still preach about improving yourself and becoming an attractive man. However, I don't usually add that last part, and let me tell you why. Over the years of reading thousands of stories, just like yours, I have seen that it rarely makes a difference in the outcome of marriages with a wayward wife. I believe it definitely helps, especially if the man is GAL like crazy; being mysterious; and leaving his WW standing in her fantasy dust. I think he has to do all of those things together. There have been many broken hearts of H's who really worked hard to change old behaviors, attitudes, and bad habits. Did their WW notice? Sure did! Then she would give him another bomb drop and tell him that it had not changed her feelings and she still wanted out. frown The thing he didn't change was the dynamics in their relationship, and therefore, the respect factor had not changed for her. You see, while some may think they are on the front row showing the WW all their changes.......she is just as likely building up more disrespect if she sees him there enduring her cr@p. It was when Txhubby was walking away and not caring what she did, that really made the difference. That's when he changed the dynamics in the relationship, and hopefully, it will stick. Sure, the improvements help......but it is the respect that that trumps everything. Even if she has years of resentment, if she gains just a little bit of respect for her H.......then she can start working on letting go of the resentment. She sees strength in the man who won't take her cr@p and the one thing a WW respects is strength. See what I mean? So if the MC can't get your W to see things clearly, where she'll make the decision to do what is right and commit to working on the MR..........and you don't instigate something that causes her to respect you as a man......I don't see a lot hope for a successful MR. The A may eventually frizzle out, and she may not file for a D, and may even have sex occasionally.........but she won't feel that spark. She can't. She is designed in such a way that she can't feel sparks for a H she doesn't respect as a man. Ironic, isn't it? She can get all crazy over the scumb ball OM, and yet she can't feel that way about her own H. As perverted as it sounds, in some twisted way she imagines something in the OM that she respects in a man. Mostly, it's just the fantasy she's created about him. Here's the thing, if they got married, it would be no time until she'd detest him, b/c her feelings were built upon the lie she fed herself. Plus.......once the man becomes her husband, that places him a whole different realm. Not only does she have to respect him as a man, in order to feel in love, but she also has to respect him as the husband in the relationship. That includes his leadership, protectiveness, provisions, decision making, etc. It is a complexity that women have in their role of wife. .


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Your problem, Jim, is that you don't know where you stand in your MR, and that's why you bring up all these things and say she doesn't really fit the mold.


^^^This this this this and THIS. It is quite possible (POSSIBLE, though perhaps not PROBABLE) that my W is in a bona fide state of "no contact" with OM. And forgive me, for purposes of THIS post, I DO NEED to go into what SHE is doing:

The last in-person contact MAY HAVE been nearly four weeks ago (6/10). There have been other opportunities-- most notably this weekend right here and then she had lunch with bff three weeks ago on a weekend out kind of near OM's neck of woods, BUT... for the latter I knew where she was going, she knew I knew and at that point she also knew I was wise to the whole A, so doubtful she did anything there AND she was not gone for too long.

This weekend is a bit dicier: Three hours away, at beach, trip has been planned for months so I am CERTAIN that OM knew about it and, if not outright invited to stay with them (which I doubt-- small condo with other girls in it) could easily have made plans to also be there this weekend. Also, he IS on vacation this week (I called his office-- zero risk check-in which I hoped would put my mind at ease if he was in town) though that is potentially less meaningful as a clue given that it IS July 4th week. Also, my W's bff, who socializes with OM's crowd and may (I am not certain) have a new beau who is familiar with OM's crowd and who also has been an assistant/enabler of the A particularly on "girl's weekends" is the one who set the trip up and was in CONSTANT contact (both phone and text) with bff during our family's beach getaway in first half of week. Most notably, as I mentioned, the night we went out and stayed out late together she disappeared for 35 minutes at one point "to go to the bathroom" but actually to talk to bff (or at least to talk to someone on bff's phone-- when she was gone for so long I checked the phone logs.) She did share a number of texts between her and the other girls but didn't say squadoosh about the bathroom phonecall or indeed the several other calls she had with bff when I wasn't around at beach, maintaining she "limited her responsiveness because she wanted to hang out with us." Now, she confides in bff about EVERYTHING and always has, including our MR, so it doesn't have to be anything plotful and insidious but... they were talking a LOT. She had considered (or at least so she told me) not going at all and just coming home with the family, but then got "talked into" going down. She DID come home first so she could have her own car and come home Saturday as opposed to Sunday. Anyhoo... hard to read this one and I am not doing any kind of monitoring of her. Once I found out OM is also "on vacation" my assessment of the likelihood of a meet up is that it is not a certainty but still somewhat likely (say 50-75%, just knowing OM and how relentless he is and what wife's current frame of mind is.)

As to frame of mind, I will expand on the Friday counselling in a different post, BUT... while she has been distant and surly and pouty to a certain extent over past few weeks since I dropped MY bomb, she has not been the full-on emotional teenager I expected. (Idunno, maybe the previous couple of tries at NC where she DID kind of go off of the "Im trapped, I can't do this, 9-1-1" deep end was/were ACTUALLY the start of the withdrawal(?). At any rate, she is still "defending" OM's character, even in counseling, now has the "additional" doubt of WON she could have a relationship with me because she knows I don't trust her and she'd always be "second guessing" herself and wondering if she could go out with her friends and that she might not be able to "be herself" under such circumstances. And, right now, "hersfelf" at least as she puts it, involves her thinking of herself "with her girlfriends" or "on her own" more than it does with me. Finally, when we were talking about commitment to the process, and based on something that MC said I asked her if she could remain faithful to me and she said, tearfully: "i AM... but if this continues, if we stay together and things don't change between us i WONT be, i KNOW i wont be." Surprising, but, i suppose, honest words from her.

With that frame of mind, I am not sure what to think. She could easily, of course, be continuing in some sort of contact with OM, although her FB activity as fallen WAY off... sometimes no more than once a day or once every other day.. although OM is still on her "contacts" list and not, AFAIK, actually "blocked" even though she unfriended him. (She doesn't share her phone with me openly enough for me to discern all of that). He could be calling her on her work phone, as he has been wont to do in past, and bff could obviously be relaying messages. Again, I have no way of knowing. Last verified contact of ANY sort was a little over two weeks back she sent or tried to send him a card and small gift (t-shirt) for his birthday... something she had been planning to do with bff's help BEFORE i dropped bomb on 6/14, so she might have just been offloading it, IDK.

So that's the picture. If i AM legitimately at "no contact", it seems as Sandi indicates that I need to be trying to take advantage of that. And MC is cautiously of mindset that we need to be moving forward and building some positive momentum. And she (W) DOES seem interested in doing some things in terms of openness and transparency, though she always does it kind of obliquely and seems reluctant to come to me at all contritely and say "look, I know what I did was wrong... this is what I want to do to make up for it" which MC indicates is kind of important. (Though she did say, when MC asked in counseling "Yes, I know that what I did was wrong.") For instance, dinner out last week she wanted to have with bff (which I am PRETTY certain might have involved OM and some sort of birthday get-together of his friends) she waffled on back and forth and then, when I calmly voiced my concern she instantly backed off and said "yeah, I totally get that, I was thinking of not going anyway." So, are we at NC or aren't we at NC? IF we ARE at NC, then her mind/heart certainly does not seem to be into taking the next step (how could she run off with bff this weekend if so?) I just really am at a quandary as to how to handle my interactions with her, particularly when she comes home.

YES, i continue with my OWN 180 and GAL efforts, (which she HAS noticed... and maybe its just my own male vanity but i DO see her "checking me out" when she thinks I'm not looking and she HAS started noting my changes/improvements to friends (he's really getting into good shape these days and taking care of himself) rather than being so relentlessly negative) AND YES, I play it cool to a certain extent with her, but... am I still at a place where I want to drop the rope and/or keep hammering her on the transparency/openness? I really feel like I need to know if she is maintaining the NC and wish I had taken a little more effort to monitor things on this beach trip. If she is at NC, if I shut her out now seems to me could be counterproductive. Or maybe not. Thoughts please.


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

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Sorry for that long book, I did not see Cadet's message to start a new thread.


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Ill start a new thread. Can you respond to my latest there?


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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