WW in A; Broke NC promise; Dropping Rope-3rd thred

[hoosjim]

Well, there will be a pivotal "talk" either tonight or tomorrow night. Everything kind of came to a head last week when I told W i knew pretty much everything, cut the cord/dropped the rope, and MC went over the difficulties involved in ending affairs but emphasized that the A had to end (NO contact) if we are truly going to work on MR, and MC also strongly recommended IC for both wife (mainly) and me.

So, decisions have to be made on both that issue (continuing MC-- our next session scheduled is an "intensive" all-day NEXT Friday 6/30) AND on upcoming "family vacation" during July 4 week that I have little stomach for pretending to particpate in if A is ongoing. HAven't gotten much chance to talk/discuss since Friday session, as we have been in full bore preparation for my oldest son's HS graduation-- getting stuff ready, family in town, etc. MC said take a few days before decision made (My W's decision as to WON she can truly and completely cut contact and my decision as to WON I want to continue MC). W knows I am ready to cut that off, I have told her i do not trust her and have no desire to continue with it under current circs. My preference would have been to continue distancing and let her come to me, as she had been before I dropped bomb on her last week, but we are running out of time on MC and vacation plans. I myself may have to bring it up myself, and we do, at least, have direction from the MC to do so-p- she (MC) had wanted us to schedule IC sessions prior to the 6/30 intensive.

[sandi2]

What is "WON"?

[hoosjim]

Whether or not.

[Coconut]

the opposite of "Lost"

I think he is referring to Whether Or Not.

[hoosjim]

Sort of a tangent-- Just watched a couple of Ted Talks by a doctor named Esther Perel. She's brilliant. Explains alot of the dynamics about both infidelity and the nature of love/desire (particularly the role of "myster" and "distance" and "unpredictability") that will be familiar to most DB adherents and followers of Sandi's posts on WWs.

Just really, really good succinct explanation of alot of the dynamics involved.

[EastTN]

I watched one of those last week. It was a good talk. My C had suggested that I watch "The Magic of not giving a f---" and I found an Esther Perel talk right after watching that one.

Definitely worth watching.

[25yearsmlc]

I loved Esther Perel's talks about how some m's can survive, some even are deeper, despite the pain of an A. I didn't feel she lumped them all together, btw.


Anyhow, I think her talks are so useful. So is another TED talk called "Why We Lie",

and "The Power of Vulnerability" by Brene Brown. (Anything by her, actually).

Hang in there

[sandi2]

So, did you see the MC, Friday? Hope to hear from you soon.

[hoosjim]

I had my IC session on Friday. W still has not.

MC basically said it sounds/seems to her like W is still not in that place where she is ready to fully commit to cutting off the A with the OM and that, unless that changes, there is little point in continuing the MC. She wants to get my wife in for an IC session, as she says sometimes talking about the A and dynamics/addictiveness of an A with a neutral third party can help bring them to their senses but, still, at the end of the day, the W has to be willing to take that step. W has taken steps to significantly limit contact with OM (is not SEEING him, has destroyed extra phone, is significantly limiting other contact-- though is possibly/probably in contact via Facebook messaging, though I see this on my own feed and she is not on there very much if at all). Anyway, MC says you can tell by the way my W keeps bringing up our past as kind of justification is a big tip off she may not be ready to make that commitment and my W herself, to her credit, did purport to make that commitment to completely end the R, though MC said "take a few days until after the graduation craziness has passed to decide." MC says W is "sorry she hurt you" but not sure W has really indicated the sentiment that she realizes what she did was wrong in and of itself. MC does think even if MC does not go forward that we can still try to find time here and there to "bounce out" and go have drinks or something to try to reconnect some, but I am not juiced about doing that and think that is where here advice falls apart a bit.

As for W, talked to her last night and today. She is still very hesitant and unwilling to come out and commit to completely ending the A and even on a more general level now to committing to the counselling, which is a bit of a switch. She is definitely more pouty and surly and quiet than before, so I think she is definitely in some sort of mourning/resentment period for the OM. We did get sucked into a 3 plus hour convo last night after I brought up the pending counselling sessions Friday 6/30 because Counselor needs to know by tomorrow if we are going ahead because she is blocking off an entire half day. I know we're not supposed to have MR talks under the circumstances (She knows I know about A, she has not done anything concrete to convince me she is ending the A completely and unconditionally, etc., I have given her my boundary) but I let myself get sucked in, though I did ultimately end it with "look, this is really not getting anywhere, and it can't get anywhere as long as there is this overlay from the OM/A". Anyway, amongst other things, W copped to being angry at me and breaking up the phone and unfriending on FB as sort of an "Eff You, okay fine I'll do this", even though her primary motivation in doing it was to "give this a shot". She also admitted that a big part of her DIDNT want to do it. Finally, she is very clearly still in an infatuation stage with the OM. Made very clear to me that there is no "spark" between us and she cant see there ever being one or any romance. Says she doesn't believe love can be created/built but that there HAS to be that instant spark or chemistry there and that its just not there for us. Not sure she can ever see us together romantically or intimately. SHe says "my whole life i've done what I've supposed to and then the one time I do something for me that i want... [I love that... the "ONE time", sheesh].. it's something "wrong"". Shes also is still upset with me for snooping/spying, though she hasn't used those nasty/perjorative terms, and says she "understands" why I would do that and that she would probably have done the same thing had the situation been reversed. She also wants to know "how I know" these things, which I still haven't divulged saying "does it really matter? " We talked a bit again this morning, where I offered to tell her "Everything I knew" in the spirit of openness if she really wanted to know, though I didn't see the point since the essence of the situation is known to both of us and talking about the details didnt seem like it would be that helpful to me. She declined to take me up on that, though was still curious to know about how I found out, to which I replied my feeling on that was basically the same-- she knew I had checked up on her at some point, what difference did it make how? Discussing the details would not be at all productive. Fairly short convo which I left at same point MC had left it at our last session: "MC needs to know by tomorrow if we are going to continue. I could commit to the counselling and working on the MR if I knew i can trust you, but right now i don't know if i can and you have given me nothing concrete or tangible that I could rely on, in addition to which you are very clearly hesitant to say you could completely cut the realtionship with the Om" (though I have to admit i am tempted to give her at least some minor honesty points on that one0-- certainly would be easy for her to just say "okay, yes", take a few more outward steps, act committed to the MC, but still keep communication open to the OM. At any rate, then told her "you know where I stand on this. I need something from you if we are going to continue as we have been and continue working with the MC. She was silent, a little teary, and nodded her head, but no response. If she indicates a willingness to go ahead on any level, I will contact MC and tell here and MC is going to try very hard to get her to commit to at least on IC session prior to Friday, and then maybe use part of Friday as IC as well.

Now wondering how long I wait to see if W mentions it. I would prefer if she brings it up, but that is not her pattern. If she says nothing, wonder if I just cancel the sessions as opposed to asking her again? Seems like the way to go.

Oh, a couple of other tidbits. I have of course been continuing to GAL, 180, distance, etc. I went out Friday to shop for something for son's graduation/college send-off, and was going to go to my favorite hangout afterward. W saw me all dolled and cologned up and asked if i could use some company. Normally I would have said "no" but we are kind of in a holding pattern at least until the MC angle is decided, and MC had advised us to "try to go have some fun", so I said "sure". We had kind of nice time, but she was nervous at one point as I was evasive as to where we were going and I think she thought I was going to drive to the OM's hangout, which is in the same direction and not all that far from where I was actually going. Then Saturday, I was going out again because my Friday shopping was unsuccessful. I didn't ask her to come and she was on phone with parents when I left. I was out longer than anticipated, went to my hangout for dinner and couple of drinks. Last night during our long talk she asked me 1) "IF i had not asked if you needed company Friday, were you going to ask me to come along" My Answer: "No" AND 2) "Why didn't you call me from the bar on Saturday to see if I wanted to join you since you knew I'd be off the phone by then" to which I answered "I just wanted some time to have some fun out by myself" Because she asked, I also talked about some of the people (some female) that I met, hungout, and talked with (I am becoming a bit of a regular at this particular establishment.) To me, this all seemed good, as in she's noticing and maybe getting interested, but then, of course, she manages to work into the convo that she "doesn't feel about me the way she should if we were to be a romantic/married couple. In particular, it doesn't bother her to think of me meeting someone else or even sleeping with someone else-- in fact she's be okay with it." Hmmm...

Anyway, right now she's moping up in room. I was at gym about 45 mins longer than i indicated and she seemed a bit ticked when I got hom... "you must have done that longer workout after all."

Now to just figure out if I broach the issue of the MC or if i just drop and cancel it. My sense is that she won't bring it up, and that it might make an impact if I completely rope drop on this one, BUT... at the same time I feel like she is close to maybe being able to completely cut contact to Om and to commit to the counselling, and that MAY BE the MC can get through to her. But, obviously, only if she goes in to see the MC.

Alot to chew on.

[hoosjim]

Note that in previous post, in first paragraph, there is a SIGNIFICANT typo: "did purport to" should actually be "did NOT purport to make that commitment..."