In nutshell-- I seriously neglected W over 7-8 year period. There were overlays (health problems, 2 special needs kids, financial troubles) but ultimately the responsibility was on me-- I turned away from her instead of towards her. Wife is "sexual being", but not just sex is important to her but intimacy. EA started in October/November 2016 with a friend of mine who took advantage of situation and info both W and I confided in him to make his move. BD on 1/23 when I discovered the A. W said A not physical at that time, and I have good intel that this is so. She distanced for a few weeks while I was also awakening and GAL-ing, etc, during which things improved for us. Then, everything turned around and she started putting up walls and distancing again. In late March they spent the night together-- unclear if there was sex. The A MAY have gone physical, but I cannot be sure, she still says no--and based on my intel I am FAIRLY certain that this is true, BUT at very least involved fairly explicit phone sexting, etc. The OM is kind of a low-life (serial drinker, womanizer, not much of a future, five years her senior but looks 15-20 years older--and yes I changed this, but it's true due to how young my W looks) but is a "fun" and "funny" guy and really "makes her laugh." Based on her behavior, pretty certain she is a "WW" as Sandi2 defines that term. Got her to promise "No Contact" early May by establishing boundary of "no open marriage". She initially attempted to comply, but started sleeping separately from me in guest room and sulked, then NC fell apart about 10 days later after a drunken evening out for all of us. Sought MC based on several recommendations and her apparent desire to do so. She seemed genuinely engaged in it, and appeared to return to or at least try to return to some sort of "no contact" but then quickly relapsed and has seen OM regularly since. I am currently "rope dropping" and it is bearing some fruit with her showing markedly increased interest/curiosity about me, BUT... by end of week there will be a convo about her continued contact with OM and violation of my boundary, and she will "know I know". Major chance this ends the MC, but not sure. MC thinks she can pull us through it.
Some but not alot of remorse shown for the A... "it just happened"... and she really fears alienating our boys (S16 and S18). Another BIG overlay is her BFF who also appears to be wayward (separated currently) and seems to be proponent/enabler of the A. Several other close friends who are in marital trouble as well. Hoping she and I can survive the storm, even if we're the only ones.
I am also continually struggling conceptually with the pursuit/distance dichotomy and how to balance that since it was "distance" that got me in this bind in the first place, even as I see the apparent fruits of doing so in my current rope=-dropping efforts.
Also getting alot of conflicting "voices" on this. Please see my first thread for more details.
Thanks to all-- being on this forum really, really helps!
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
In MOST cases I know what the right answer is to the questions I ask, I just need to 1) be more confident in that and, especially 2) Do NOT get ahead of myself, do not get too wordy, and do NOT spin scenarios. Work with what is in front of me.
Sounds better.
Quote:
I am also continually struggling conceptually with the pursuit/distance dichotomy and how to balance that since it was "distance" that got me in this bind in the first place, even as I see the apparent fruits of doing so in my current rope=-dropping efforts.
As you may know, MWD has not distinguished the wayward wife apart from the walk away wives. IMHO, the WAW leaves in an attempt to survive the harsh circumstances the H cast upon the lives of her and the children. Whether she is fleeing an abusive situation; her H being imprisoned; an addict; or leaving a man who will not work to provide the bare necessities of life..........these women have to leave in order to protect/provide for themselves & their children. There is not that entitlement and selfishness you see in waywards. IMHO, the WAW comes from a M where the H is definitely the bad/sorry guy. In those type of situations, then the H would not want to do any action that looks like old behavior patterns to his W. He would want to prove himself, and hopefully in time, she would see he had changed and she could trust him again. I think MWD gives solid advice for those M's with a walk away wife.
The mindset of a wayward wife has usually been in the making for quite some time. When she gives the bomb drop, it usually wakes the H with a charge, and he is ready to throw himself into the MR 100%. However, this woman is not a typical WAW. Upon observing a wayward, her "recent" strange behavior stems from a foundation that has been forming for a long time. She may have kept it under cover for a long time, but bad stuff has been brewing. The WW is filled with resentments from the past and she just won't let go. The resentment causes feelings of disrespect for her H and eventually she will do something (large or small) that is an act of rebellion (comparable to teenagers acting out.....all the way to girls gone wild, in & out of affairs, etc). The attitude and outward behavior of a WW is noticeable by her H, b/c of the obvious change in her. The WW is angry, and she is capable of venting her pent up rage.......and usually, the H is her target. Most of her anger, IMO, is in the form of bitterness. Especially in a long term MR where the W has had years of unmet emotional needs, big disappointments/pain, etc. All that bitterness and feelings of disrespect for her H/MR, has been pushed down and finally reaches its threshold. IMHO, she is in a state of emotional vulnerability, and the chances of her turning to something that makes her feel better, is high. Her mindset can change dramatically, to the point her H is wondering, "Who is this woman and where is the girl I married"? Most WW's have no romantic feelings for the H, and it's more like one feels for a relative. Of course, all of these things will vary to some degree in the individual. However, those characteristics are there, and one that seems very noticeable in WW cases is the selfishness. The WW feels a sense of entitlement and justification. This is part of what sets her apart from the WAW. Selfishness is her motivator. Everything is about her and what benefits her the best. We have seen wayward wives forsake their babies in order to be with some other guy or so she can act like GGW and sleep around. And then, justify her actions by saying, "This is my time to be happy".
I have said all of that to tell you how your previous and current behavior plays into it. B/c of the bitterness she has allowed to grow in her heart, it is hard to let go of it. Doing so, would require forgiving her H, and she doesn't want to forgive him. Being angry at him is her platform and it justifies her current behavior. There have been several reports of H's who made remarkable changes and was the man a woman would be a fool to leave. And yet..........it did not persuade his WW to give the MR another chance. Several of the WW's would tell the H how she could see his improvements, but that she still wanted a divorce. Some WW's would be angry that the H waited until she was done...before he got his act together. Other WW's would complement the H for his improvements, but then add how it had not changed her feelings. IMO, that's got to be a big blow to the H. And, that is another reason we stress to all newcomers to make improvements for themselves. If the W sees the changes, fine.......and if she doesn't, that should be fine with you, also. If you have to pursue her in order to prove your changes......then something is out of kelter. The WW does not respond well to a pursuing H. She is attracted to strength and confidence. She responds to him suddenly becoming mysterious, or him GAL, or that she could actually lose him b/c he didn't want her. B/c as a WW......she has not seriously felt threatened of losing you. If you pursue her.....that shouts to her that she can cheat and still keep you as her backup plan.
Now this is what I want you to really understand. Is your W trying to flee from you, due to your previous neglect? That's not what I see, based on your threads. I see a woman benefiting from the MR, while she plays GGW and cheats on her H. If your W was fleeing the M, in order to survive a really bad situation (short version), then the things your emotions are wanting to do with your W might make a difference (depending on the situation). However, that doesn't work successfully with waywards. Why? B/c of all that wayward mess in her head/heart. She has a bad mindset that has developed over time, and that's the enemy in your MR. It's not the OM, nor her BFF (although an influence)........it is her mindset about you, the MR, and the past. When a woman does not feel respect for a man..........she usually does not desire an intimate relationship with him. (That's why she wants him only for a friend). Now she may "use" him, if she needs the sexual release, or wants to have cuddle & comforting time, but the love a wife should have for her H is not there. She is a user, not a giver.
Some things will not change until she decides to do the right thing. She can't have it both ways. She is wrong to do what she's doing. Your WW does not want you pursuing her, b/c it makes her feel smothered and it turns her off. However, if you pull back....it brings her toward you. Just like you were dancing. You step forward and she has to step backward. You step back and she goes toward you.
Both people in this MR will need to make big changes. There is never a time a couple can stop working on their MR......if they want a happy one.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
The issue of my boundary (no open marriage, wont share W with another man) finally came up last night. She asked if I was interested in talking about some of the stuff we had been assigned for this Friday's MC session (2 hours) and I said "Not really." (This was after asking where the notes and papers were, which had been sitting out on our bed but which I had put away after I found out over the weekend that she was still having FTF contact with OM.) So, she then says "well, can we talk?" and I say "talk away". So she launches into this explanation of how she has been feeling (and she really was or at least appeared to be, for her at least in her current "state", "opening up.") She says she has been doing a lot of thinking and some reading, and evaluating what she has been doing, and that she was (again) sorry for what she had done in terms of the A with the OM and that she knew that that had hurt me, but that she was trying to be open and explore her feelings towards me, etc. etc. She also says she has been wanting to say all this to me for a couple of days but that I had not been being very "responsive" to her. (As a refresher, this is all hard on the heels of me "dropping the rope" Saturday night, and pulling away hard. I had not been returning her texts unless they concerned the kids or some household business that couldn't wait, and I had been avoiding her around the house and not calling her during the day. In response, she had been texting my more frequently than at any time over the past 5 months I have known of the A, as well as calling me and following me around the house and being a little solicitious/flirty.) My response to her, in a level voice, was that I had noticed that she had been participating in the counseling, and that she had seemed interested in it, and I was appreciative of that, but... several weeks ago I had stated a boundary of mine to her, that I would not carry on as a married couple with her while she was seeing the OM or indeed ANY other man, and that she had agreed as a result to cut contact with the OM, AND THAT I knew she had been lying to me and broken that promise and that she was continuing to do so. Further, I didn't want to continue with the MC or discussing the MR as long as she continued to see the OM.
She, of course, wanted examples. And to protest. And to argue that nothing "serious" was going on. I gave her a couple of examples of things I knew, but did not let her know how I knew, and did not reveal anything that would've revealed all or even my most important sources,and held quite a bit back. (Though she did figure out that I had gone through her CC statements online.) I told her I didn't appreciate her trying to turn things around on me. She asked if I wanted to continue the counseling, and I said "under the current circumstances, no... I am not sure how I could trust you. If you could commit 100% to that process, and somehow demonstrate that you were trustworthy, I could myself give 100% to that process, but under no circumstances while she was in contact with OM." (These are not my exact words, but something close.)
We went back and forth a bit, prolly more than I should have, (she made one BIG denial that "I have not seen him since _______" which I couldn't stop myself from responding to-- she had seen him for a brief 10 min kissing meet up on Saturday, which I knew about but didn't share other than "I know you saw him at ______ on Saturday morning-- head drop on her part) though I think I kept from getting too far down in the weeds, and she DID grant that she still had the extra phone (though didn't offer to give it up) DID grant that she had been in touch with and following him on FB; and DID admit to one FTF meeting (though she downplayed it.) She also made a big deal out of me snooping (which she said it was obvious I had done) and that it made her feel even more "trapped and smothered" than she had previously. She also continually tried to justify what she was doing, once by saying she had been "living in fear" of when the children went off to college and she was "left here alone with you [meaning me]," and once by saying that maybe she needed to "explore herself" and "find out who she is". She also said she had been trying to "minimize contact" with OM, making it "less and less", and that lately both contact and phone calls had been much less frequent. Which could, actually, be true-- I have not been monitoring her 24/7 and wouldn't be able to say for sure-- and I think she probably HAS been trying, based on her behavior patterns-- she just keeps having some pretty significant slip-ups, particularly keeping the "easy-to-contact-OM-on cheater phone" (which she just bought a THREE MONTH service card for-- first time she has ever bought more than one month) and then the two "contacts" this past weekend-- the tearful Friday afternoon "I want to run away with you" phoncon she made from outside his fave hangout (though granted she didn't go in) I posted about earlier , and then the brief 10 minute meet up where they chatted and kissed a little at the end that happened Saturday Morning when she went out to "run errands."
She wanted to talk more about the MR, which I slipped and did a LITTLE but, in the end, told her "look, I really just don't feel comfortable pretending like we are working on us by "talking" as long as you continue to see OM."
Today we got up and said very little to each other. She was somewhat surly, head down. She asked if I "hated" her and I said "no, but I am very angry with you, and don't feel like being close with you or talking with you or doing all the texting and talking and so forth that you have been wanting to do the past couple of days." I restated my boundary, that I can commit to working on the MR, but that carrying on as we have been (including counseling) as long as the OM was in the picture, is something I was not going to do. And then I left to go to the gym.
No word from her today either via phone or text.
She also changed both her credit card account page passwords (which is not very encouraging) which I found out when I went looking for an old transaction to help me confirm something for my timeline of events that I am keeping in my private journal.
My sense is that this was a pretty damaging episode. Not that I regret it because I think it had to happen-- I was not going to continue to "play" house and "play" at MC while she was screwing around with OM, and she was clearly (at least to my mind) not going to cut contact without some kind of jolt. And she still might not, but at least now it's out there, she knows I know and it is not "in the shadows," so maybe that part of the thrill will be gone. She also mentioned again her fear of losing the kids and that "she knows she's being selfish.) At any rate, she is and prolly will continue to be angry with me. Have to wait and see if she can get over that.
Looks like I will be rope-dropping, and last-last-resorting for the foreseeable future. Wouldn't surprise me if she opts to leave (she mentioned last night "maybe I just need to be off on my own") Only about 10% of separated couples end up reconciling.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Thanks, Sandi, that is all VERY helpful. And you can see my previous post if you want to see how last night went. End result is that today is hard, and I hurt, but maybe basis for longer-term progress? Idunno, I give myself like a "6" on a scale of 1-10 in how I handled it. Could've been briefer, could've been more insistent on "no, we're just talking about this" but, at least, I THINK the right message got across. I am going to continue with the distancing/rope-dropping, am planning on cancelling (or converting to individual session) the MC unless SHE comes to ME and says "IM sorry, I want to try this, here's what Im willing to do" (not really holding out a lot of hope for that to happen, though maybe God will surprise me and that will be the start of my miracle-- I am putting it "in his hands" every day), and, at next opportunity or next time it comes up (prolly pretty soon) will make it known that we need to adjust plans for the July 4 "family vacation" as I am not going to go to that and "pretend all is well."
The following, BTW, is proabably the best and most succinct explanation I have seen from you yet of what the WW dynamic means for my particular sitch:
Quote:
She has a bad mindset that has developed over time, and that's the enemy in your MR. It's not the OM, nor her BFF (although an influence)........it is her mindset about you, the MR, and the past. When a woman does not feel respect for a man..........she usually does not desire an intimate relationship with him.
And I know you have said that elsewhere and in other ways, but the incorporation of the OM and BFF (both of whom I DO focus on quite a bit) really resonated with me. Thanks.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Beautiful post from Sandi, what a great summary of WAW vs. WW! Reminds me so much of what I went through, and in fact at one point my ex even made that "This is my time to be happy" statement almost word-for-word!
Originally Posted By: hoosjim
The issue of my boundary (no open marriage, wont share W with another man) finally came up last night.
Wow, well that sounds like quite a discussion. My take away from this is that your boundary is a reasonable one, and she should respect that. But having not read your first thread, it sounds like there is an AWFUL LOT of snooping going on on your part? Checking CC records, possibly a PI? Not sure how you know all the dates and times she meets OM, but you’ve got to stop that. You know there’s an OM, do you really need to know every little detail? The more you dig then the more you will suffer, and the deeper undercover she will go with the A, and the harder it will be for you to know what’s up. You’ve stated your boundaries, she knows them, now the thing to do is go dark on her as much as you can given that you have kids. Quit snooping. Just tell her that when she has given up OM and is willing to REALLY work on the M, that you will require full access to her CC records and phone records and such as proof that she really did terminate it with OM. I can’t remember if this is in DB or if I’ve read it on these forums, but it has been suggested that the WW actually type and send a message to OM telling him it’s over and not to contact her anymore and do all of this IN FRONT OF the LBH.
Originally Posted By: hoosjim
She also changed both her credit card account page passwords (which is not very encouraging) which I found out when I went looking for an old transaction to help me confirm something for my timeline of events that I am keeping in my private journal .
That’s what I meant above about her going deeper undercover. Now that she knows you’re snooping she will ramp up her efforts to hide her tracks better.
Originally Posted By: hoosjim
My sense is that this was a pretty damaging episode.
Damaging to your chances to reconcile you mean? Actually I think you did pretty well. You clearly stated your boundaries and you stuck to your guns. The snooping thing was the one area where you maybe slipped up a little, but overall I think you did pretty well. She wants to cake-eat but now she’s on notice that that’s not going to fly.
Originally Posted By: hoosjim
Only about 10% of separated couples end up reconciling.
You’ve be surprised how many of those 90% are because the LBS doesn’t want to get back together. I’ve read many stories where after S the LBS becomes the strong, independent person we recommend here, and then when the WAS comes crawling back the LBS doesn’t want to have anything to do with reconciling. ESPECIALLY if there was MLC involved. Once you go through the pain of BD and spend months/ years rebuilding your life, if and when the WAS comes knocking the LBS can’t help but think “no, I will not go through that again.” There are a lot of examples of the tables being turned, where the WAS suddenly finds themselves begging and pleading with the LBS. For months after BD I wanted nothing more in life than to “restore” my previous life. Now? I am perfectly content to just have XW as a friend. She’s never hinted at wanting to reconcile, but if she did I would politely decline. Our old life is gone, I have awesome memories of it but that chapter is closed and I am writing a new chapter. Much different, but beautiful in completely different ways.
Point well taken on the snooping. Yah, it is painful, and sometimes I think it would have been better not to have known. But then I think "what if she had come back, and never told me? Could we have had the relationship, the true relationship, that I really want us to have?"
I think the answer to that (I hope) is that the truth has to be out there. I just hope that my approach to it has not poisoned the waters so badly that she "can't" come back. Right now she is VERY apart from me. The Rope Dropping had drawn her back some, but no amount of playing it cool or distancing by me was going to draw her out today. Was like she fell into a black hole. She started to call me once--- my phone rang one time and i didn't pick up because i never pick up on the first ring with her these days and then it never rang again. She must have chickened out. Or doubled her "hate" for me, lol.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
In a sense, you gave her a BD when you told her you knew about OM. She will need space from you, b/c her mind will probably be spinning today.
Like most betrayed spouses, the waiting to see the next move is agonizing. You have tossed the ball to her, and her mind is probably spinning about what to do. Your job is to give her space and do not approach her again about the previous discussion. However, she can approach you to tell you what she is going to do.
Hoosjim, do not begin doubting yourself and worry if you said the right things, etc. B/c that will trigger your need to go into some form of action...........and usually, when men try to back up and go over what they said.......or even worse, APPOLOGIZE to their WW for the snooping and for not returning the calls, and anything else he thinks will help get through this waiting and not knowing what she will do...........will make a bigger mess of things. If she does not tell you anything before Friday's session, you might consider attending alone (without your W's knowledge), or postpone the appointment instead of canceling. Not that you need to keep your counseling a secret from her, but this would give some physical space and may give a slight air of mystery of not knowing where you are during that time.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I went out last night to run a couple errands. Didn't say where I was going. She was curled up fetal asleep on top if guest bed when I got home. I went up later after helping s16 with homework and she had gotten up and moved to mbr. Was still awake (I think waiting for me). Asked where I'd gone... I stayed evasive, just a couple errands. She kept wanting to chit chat with me. The nice, kind of far ranging spiraling talks about everything that we used to have once upon a time and have had a handful of times in past few weeks when she's let her guard fown. I tried not to be too open, chatty, and accommodative, but only so standoffish you can be while laying in same bed as someone without coming off as an actual @$$. I at least focused on not sounding too friendly/warm.
This morning, did what I had been doing past week... up and out early to gym.She calls me as I'm driving. Says she had wanted to talk last night but I went out and she fell asleep. Sorry, she says. Silence from me. Also says she had wanted to talk about other things... she unfriended tho OM and OM's circle on FB and smashed the extra phone, she says. "I didn't know if you wanted to talk or not". "If you'd like" I say, "we can talk tonight". "Okay", she says "this is my late day at eork" (it is), "I'll call you when I'm headed home".
I'm suspicious. This seems a bit early to be having a change of heart, although her demeanor and tone of voice IS somewhat subdued/down/even maybe contrite? I keep coming back to that she immediately changed her cc password yesterday AM...
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
I'm suspicious. This seems a bit early to be having a change of heart, although her demeanor and tone of voice IS somewhat subdued/down/even maybe contrite?
You're right to be suspicious. I mean it's a good sign, the thought of losing you may have triggered an awakening on her part. But this is where a lot of LBS's slip up, don't be too quick to welcome her back with open arms like nothing ever happened. Because something DID happen, and it demonstrates that there are problems in the M that need to be resolved. She needs to WORK to have her M back, if indeed that's what she is thinking.
Good luck with the talk, let us know what y'all discuss. Remember to LISTEN and VALIDATE. Let her talk. You just keep eye contact, repeat back to her what she is saying, ask her how that makes her feel, and validate her feelings. Validating is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ begging/ pleading/ explaining, etc. It's simply acknowledging her feelings. "You sound frustrated and confused, is that how you feel?" "Yes it is". "I understand, I'm sorry you're struggling with that." That sort of thing. This is a serious question- would listening to her and asking about her feelings be a 180 for you? It is for most men.
