WH came back. Piecing. Past the 2 year mark ...

[Coconut]

This makes me sad, not because I'm worried about you, i know you'll be ok, but because I know how dedicated you are to making it work... Not because you need to, but because you want to.

How can a M be stronger after an A? I'm no expert, but I'll give you my thoughts on it.

H & W going through M, experience the normal ruts in a M without having the tools that are available to learn how to communicate, relying instead on the fantasy belief that M is for ever, the "innocence of their S", and just suffer through daily life not knowing how to make things better.

Then, BD. Whatever process used, they end up getting back together.

Through the piecing process they learn tools to communicate, learn to be happy on their own and to share in each other's happiness, and know how to bring up issues and work together to find solutions, compromise, and feel like a team.

They find happiness and strength in the M becaus of their mutual accomplishment of working through things.

Sounds great right? But what if what you want in a M is the fantasy, you want more than anything to have the innocence? No amount of communication or teamwork can bring that back... Some people just want the fantasy back.

Not every M comes back stronger, many try, many fail, the survivors are stronger because they prefer the communication than the fantasy.

I may be way off, but just my uneducated thoughts. Blu, whatever happens, you have tried, you've made yourself vulnerable, stronger, and have compromised. I really wish the best for you, whatever the best looks like for you.

[Stormchaser]

I have been thinking more and more about separation. Everything has changed in the past several weeks. Even having had that genuine and solid glimmer of hope does not motivate me.

I can't help but wonder what my life would have been like had he never come back. And it's not that I don't think it COULD work, it's that I don't know if this is what I want anymore.

So after the betrayal, all those little things that didn't matter so much, now have me thinking second, third, and fourth thoughts about him.

The things have that have been coming up (big and small) just feel like deal breakers. They are telling about fundamentally who he is. Or are they? I can't say right now. I can't.

So here I am--the one that has the returned and remorseful H, and honestly I question it all. The only thing that gives me pause is that I understand that decisions take time. Big decisions deserve time, processing, thinking, and then a little more time.

I am not in a good place right now...
Blu

I'm so sorry, Blu.

If its any consolation, I feel exactly the same way lately.

My W had an event recently where she up on a stage. Everyone complimented me on how beautiful she was. How lucky I am to have her. She even praised ME in front of hundreds of people. Told an entire crowd how she wouldn't be where she was if it wasn't for me.

And I loved it. I felt great. Except for when I got home and started feeling dull again. Like I'm here for HER, not for ME.

I mentioned to my IC about how bad I've been feeling. He said its very typical for PTSD, how the event doesn't bother you at first, but then later, the thoughts, the images - the thought of her kissing OM never entered my mind when I first found out, but now it wakes me up in a cold sweat.

I have what everyone wants, a remorseful regretful spouse that now treats me like a king. But that innocence is SO gone. I said to my IC, "if I ever imagined us splitting, it would NEVER be about infidelity - hell, I'm so flirty at work sometimes that I worried about ME - but I always thought it would be about money, raising the kids differently, religion (my wife is religious, I am not). Now that I know she's capable of cheating, it just ruined everything"

The sad part - I don't think I'll ever trust anyone ever again. So, do I go on staying married to the person I will never trust, or find someone else that I will never trust?

Plus the fact, I still regret the bad therapy I had - the stupid IC and MC who both said it was ok for my W to continue working with OM. I wish I had balls enough to stand up back then and force the issue, at least I'd respect myself more.

Damn this. I finally have the marriage I've dreamed of. But at what cost?

BUT - this is not all doom and gloom. I will keep trying and keep trying. I know of people that HAVE recovered several years later. Lots of people. I desperately want to stick this out. I do have more good days than bad. Its only been a year and a half. Next year may bring more good days. I'm not getting any younger, but I'm getting better. Perhaps a shot at Retrouaville, maybe another MC down the road.

My IC says I need to still process this but he's positive. We know its ME with the problem now. My W wants to help, but she readily admits she doesn't know how. But at least she's honest.

I admire people who can just move past this like it was nothing. Its forgotten about and never discussed again.

I wonder how Txhubby is doing, too.

[BluWave]

25,

Thank you again for your timely and thoughtful reply. (as you can see I still am terrible at the use of quotations) Okay so maybe I need to find this other Ted Talk. The one I saw highlights how common infidelity is. I find that depressing. I have had friends tell me "at least you know everything," or "I would not be surprised if there were things about my H I didn't know. I wouldn't want to know that!" Why does that make me so sad? I feel like this little girl who wants to believe in love, which perhaps has some very unrealsitic ideas interwoven in there ... then again, I know people that have what I consider to be a love/monogamy/respect that I DID have. I just don't anymore ...

Her research does show that. You are correct. It can be done. Our MC also told us that not everyone can get through this. All these years later and I still don't know if I am that person. I said for all those years that this was my only deal breaker ... and here I am. I am trying to convince myself of something that I never saw as possible. So you ask what have I done? Well I was in IC, we went to MC, we both have read a couple books, we attended Retrouvaille (but have not completed), and the most obvious, which is reading/posting here. Not sure I can list the books here, but I have found them to be good and helpful.

You tell me the H that I idealized is flawed. You are correct! I would say more than flawed tho. The behavior was extreme tho, wasn't it? Even my nonemotional, more logical, brain has trouble wrapping my mind around how a person can do what he did. He lied to me for 8 mos, had an A with a "friend" and then picked up and left me for her for 10 mos. This was right after my father died. During that time my bipolar teen went downhill in a severe way--running away, drugs--and I had to send her to treatment out of state for 1.5 years. It still blows my mind what I went through. How can you say you love a person and turn your back on them in that way???

So that is not just a flaw, is it? Okay so he is back, has all the remorse, etc, but I still go back to "but you did THAT to me, to us, to the kids," and it doesn't go away. So even though we have worked through things, I have come to realize that I don't have the bandwidth to handle/accept those other (smaller) "flaws." Basically I am still a bitter, scorned woman. Yup. That's me.

Do I have someone else real or in fantasy in mind? No. Not at all. I was alone when I met H, and even had a child, and I think I would have been okay. I am not afraid of being alone. I also think I would meet someone else eventually. But I can't afford my lifestyle, community, kids' schools, and what I provide for my kids if I were alone. I also know it would tear them up if we split. I watched it happen! So basically I am stuck right now anyhow.

Is my M a tapestry? I don't know. I can't see clearly. I think I could see both perspectives when I shift my thinking a bit. Like I said, I am not in a good place. His mother died a few weeks ago. I recall you saying how when your H's mother died, that something changed. ... I loved my MIL so, so much. She was a wonderful grandmother. And as different as we were on the surface, we are also pretty fierce in the same ways. Her H did the exact same sequence of events as my H, just several years before--had an A with a friend, left her for the A, was severely depressed, came back--and her son (my H) was her main support! Then this jackhole does the same thing to me just 5 or so years later. Crazy? Or expected? I don't even know.

So my H has been saying how I am a wonderful support for everyone in my life except him. So here he is grieving the loss of his mother and he feels alone. I should feel more compassion and love for him. I don't feel that way. Perhaps that makes me bad person ... I keep thinking about how I wasn't even able to be present for my father during his death because of the constant gaslighting during Hs A (when I didn't know). And then my father died. A couple mos later the A came to light. Then he left me. ...

People say to leave the past in the past. I get that. I am not dumb. But I can't. It doesn't feel right. None of it feels right. I can't seem to get my logical brain back in the drivers seat these days. I went on a long walk somewhere beautiful today to clear my head. By the end of my walk I was seething with contempt towards H and all the things he has recently said and done that has rubbed me the wrong way. ... this does not a marriage make ...

I feel triggered. Stuck. Suffocated. Good news is I know these feelings won't last. They never do. Time. All I can do is self soothe. Shelf them. Think. More time. Have I shared too much? Perhaps. Don't have much else to lose at this point. So what is the take home message folks? You may get your S back. But this chit is HARD :-(

Blu

[leahsue]

Blu,
Today is "I'll be honest" day for you, right? LOL

I just responded to you over on my thread, but wanted to encourage you here on yours, and to once more thank you for your refreshing self-disclosure.

I know this board is more about those of us here alone, hoping and praying for a spouse to return, but for those who may be here in your situation, I can only imagine what a huge validation your words are for them. Both hurt and joy are so much better when shared.

((((Blu)))))

[BluWave]

C-nut,

Thank you. I feel sad too. You are correct tho--when it comes to finding tools to work through things, because otherwise we wouldn't ever need or find them, and perhaps the M can just go on blindly. I like to call these silver linings. They are there, but we have to allow ourselves to see them.

The thing is, the piecing process is not all that fruitful. It is a lot of 2 steps forward, 3 steps back. It takes a lot of GRIT! I have to exercise constant self restraint because the triggers come and my primal self wants to grab a spear and charge! I have never raised a finger at anyone, but there is this overwhelming sense of pain/frustration that is indescribable. I can't open the tool box when these things hit. I just have to wait.

You see, it was not just the fantasy or innocence of H that I want back. There was an element of respect and trust too. I see so many wonderful qualities in him, but without those there is nothing right?

You say that even if this doesn't work, then I will be better than before. Well, I guess that is up to me isn't it? I don't want to be a victim and just look at his mistakes. He told me in an argument last week that if I leave him, I will eventually look at myself and regret it ... ummmm what?... He hurled that in anger, but I guess I should think about that some more ...

Blu

[BluWave]

Storm,

Yes! I am right there with you! When I read your posts, I find myself feeling the exact same way. I can imagine the feelings of love/pride you felt for your wife and then just moments later the reality of the sitch (the A) smack you upside the head. It's like snatching candy from a baby. And there is the part deep down that feels this love/connection that has always been there ... but then we remember that is gone. So if that is gone, then what is this?

I will never trust another person either. So recently we were with a big group of friends and I had this moment. Like I said OW was a so called friend for many years. She had this very flirty/floozy way about her; I didn't understand the EA for a long time because she was like this with all men. I call it "hiding in plain site." I have another friend who is also flirty by nature. The difference is that this woman has a moral compass and I trust her as a friend. When we were all hanging out (and I have seen this before), her and my H were giggling about something. Totally innocent. However the affect on me is different. He could not be any less attractive to me in those moments! Repulsive.

I think you should give Retrouvaille a shot. We were in the best place we have been in doing that program. Perhaps we will get back to it. Not sure today tho. ... You know as well as I do tho that so much changes that we have to keep being openminded to what will come next ...

Keep posting :-) I need you.
Blu

[OwnIt]

Blu,

I wish I had something to offer you, but I don't. You've come further than I will have the chance to. You've lived through things that I hope I never have to face. You are obviously a strong and compassionate person. You will make the right decision for yourself.

[BluWave]

(((leah)))

I am sorry if my post was hurtful. I do try and be direct & honest with what I see and think. I don't like to sugarcoat things or fart rainbows. That is like putting a bandaid on a broken leg. Just know that I am as screwed up as everyone else here :-) Look, my H is what we are all seeking and I am trying so, so hard not to be that WAW. ... But I got nuthin but love for y'all. I have no other reason to be here, truly.

Blu

[25yearsmlc]

Blu

I will start with the anecdote I wrote earlier b/c I DO know how to use quotes and colors!




One - anecdote that may resonate. Years ago a friend was at a workshop with me. (The EE workshop as a matter of fact). Her name is Carol and she had lost a young child some months earlier. Yet she seemed sort of "at peace" for lack of a better phrase.

I was 6-7 months pregnant at the time, & Carol's loss was utterly terrifying to me.

I finally admitted that the idea of her beautiful life being "all ruined' by the loss of a young child was too much for me to comprehend. It was beyond my ken.

But Carol is one of those Zen people who seem to have such resilience and inner contentment that I just liked being around her. Yet I was so uncomfortable, I had to ask her how on earth she was dealing with it.

I said that to me, her loss would be like a beautiful painting that someone had thrown red paint on and now this painting, i.e. her "Life", could never be beautiful again. Not with that horrible stain.

So she turns and says "Oh I see life more like a tapestry. Up close you can see the stains and frayed threads, or you can see all the textures and variations woven in,

But when you step back you can still see that on the whole, it's quite beautiful."

Maybe your m is a tapestry, Blu.



So now let's look at your post...

[quote=BluWave]25,

Thank you again for your timely and thoughtful reply. (as you can see I still am terrible at the use of quotations) Okay so maybe I need to find this other Ted Talk. The one I saw highlights how common infidelity is.

I don't disagree, but here are 2 thoughts on this^^. First, I'm not sure if they count someone who has had 2+ A's as 2+ cheaters or as one, and

Secondly - a one night stand or a fling for a shorter time than your h had, counts the same as a long term repeat cheater.

I don't see that quite as black and white.



- I feel like this little girl who wants to believe in love, which perhaps has some very unrealsitic ideas interwoven in there ... then again, I know people that have what I consider to be a love/monogamy/respect that I DID have. I just don't anymore ...


how do you know what these other people have? I mean, honestly? I think you want a time machine to go back to what you had or think you had.

Dear God Blu if you do find a time machine, let me know.


Her research does show that. You are correct. It can be done. Our MC also told us that not everyone can get through this.

choice+ effort ^^^

All these years later and I still don't know if I am that person. I said for all those years that this was my only deal breaker ... and here I am. I am trying to convince myself of something that I never saw as possible.

this^^ resonates with me. I had boundaries and they were crossed, and I found DB. Maybe I just wanted a way to stay and not feel degraded or foolish.

OR maybe I was smart and loving (as a mother and wife) to put my ego & pride aside, to examine what really truly mattered to me and our family. To keep us intact.

I'm not sure I was right to stay back 10 years ago. Maybe I should have filed and started over at age 47 instead of 57, though there were financial benefits to my kids to staying m. (Discounting the possibility of me finding a great job or financially helpful new h)

I am not sure of my past choices, but I know that regretting them too much now will not help me or my kids.
-

-

You tell me the H that I idealized is flawed. You are correct! I would say more than flawed tho. The behavior was extreme tho, wasn't it?


yes it was Blu. I am not going to minimize it. I relate. The fb posts of how HAPPY h is and how me met the "love of his life" are cruel behaviors I'd never ever have imagined h doing. If your h can explain it to me, I'm all ears.

Makes me grateful that h is in Alaska, so I don't have to deal with the "hi everyone!!" factor...

You are being very challenged.

Even my nonemotional, more logical, brain has trouble wrapping my mind around how a person can do what he did.

I have said these ^^ exact words to my T. She said to "stop putting a rational spin on irrational behavior."

Maybe there's an "in for a penny, in for a pound" mentality. ??


He lied to me for 8 mos, had an A with a "friend" and then picked up and left me for her for 10 mos. This was right after my father died.
During that time my bipolar teen went downhill in a severe way--running away, drugs--and I had to send her to treatment out of state for 1.5 years. It still blows my mind what I went through. How can you say you love a person and turn your back on them in that way???

if you know my "updated" story you will recall that I filed after h left for the tundra, just days after I was released from the ICU for a weird sudden neuro problem that has changed my life (though temporarily I'm pretty sure). It was terrifying and I was impaired. And my mom had died and last child was off to college and some other things happened so that I was at my weakest. And neediest.

D19 was a troubled teen, has been arrested and assaulted since...

So this&^^^^^^ sadly resonates with me a lot.


So that is not just a flaw, is it? Okay so he is back, has all the remorse, etc, but I still go back to "but you did THAT to me, to us, to the kids," and it doesn't go away.


why won't it go away? I'm asking.


So even though we have worked through things, I have come to realize that I don't have the bandwidth to handle/accept those other (smaller) "flaws." Basically I am still a bitter, scorned woman. Yup. That's me.

Sorry Blu but I'm still not clear on this^^^. Are they small flaws or big faults or what?

I love the analogy of bandwidth, but are you saying that you cannot allow this many frays on the tapestry or what?

As for bitter scorned woman...OKAY so if you leave him, what will you be? I mean down the road

do you envision a life of peace and contentment or what? Are you like Diane Keaton on Something's Gotta Give, where she lives on the ocean in a beautiful home and writes,

or are you making sure your kids know it's still their dads' fault or what?

I do think fleshing out some details of what you envision is a good idea for you.

Know what your options really truly are, as a day to day life.


- I can't afford my lifestyle, community, kids' schools, and what I provide for my kids if I were alone. I also know it would tear them up if we split. I watched it happen! So basically I am stuck right now anyhow.


IF THIS^^^ IS TRUE - then what's the question?



Is my M a tapestry? I don't know. I can't see clearly. I think I could see both perspectives when I shift my thinking a bit. Like I said, I am not in a good place. His mother died a few weeks ago. I recall you saying how when your H's mother died, that something changed. ...

actually both our mom's died a few years apart. H's mom got sick and died after we recon and we stopped piecing. She was not a big part of our lives. She was an emotionally unstable but kindly woman, whom h loved but he also did not seem to want to live near her...

When my mom died, something shifted in ME and I knew another "let's go to Alaska" ordeal was not something I had in me. It was supposed to be "my turn" now in life. All those moves for h and none for me...I could not do it again and face my kids OR myself.

Life is short. Losing my mom was a big fat deal to me. Horrible. It reminded me of that brutally. I could not subsume myself into h's dreams and discontentment and chronic restlessness anymore. I loved him, I was committed and loyal to him and our m, but a part of me would die and not return if I went, again. Still, I would not have filed for div, had he not betrayed me when I was sick.

BUT my h wasn't like your h is acting. My H was behaving exactly the same as he had been a decade earlier like all the "growth" had been fake or he simply went backwards...


I loved my MIL so, so much. She was a wonderful grandmother. And as different as we were on the surface, we are also pretty fierce in the same ways. Her H did the exact same sequence of events as my H, just several years before--had an A with a friend, left her for the A, was severely depressed, came back--and her son (my H) was her main support! Then this jackhole does the same thing to me just 5 or so years later. Crazy? Or expected? I don't even know.

I'm tired of hearing about the cliched parallels between spouses & parents. It does not have to be!

My h's bff Dan, is among the best husband's I know. Dan had 3 sisters and they had a terrible father figure. Dan's dad left the family to marry pregnant OW.

Dan's was 9 watched his dad marry OW and then saw that marriage end, Shockingly. Of course now there was a half brother for Dan, as well.

then his dad married wife #3. He treated his third wife in a crusty mediocre way b/c he refused to look within and change HIM and

so W#3 left him - 17 years after the first marriage and family broke apart.

Dan's role model %ucked. But overall, I see Dan as the best h and father I know. I love his w too. Long time friends of h and mine.

Point is, the cycle can be broken.

FWIW, Dan and his w have 3 grown kids all happily married. Their 2nd grandchild is on the way. They all seem stable and happy and when I saw the photo of their family at the ocean, 3 generations

I and realized where Dan came from in terms of HIS role model, the cycle he broke AND the legacy he created,

I'm awed, and envious.

How about you?





more later

[BluWave]

Ownit,

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the encouragement. I am open to your feedback and advice. You obviously are a smart woman and quite level headed; I agree with your feedback to others as well.

I want to get caught up on your sitch. I started reading your threads (in addition to 25s and several others) but I cannot keep up! Between work and kids, I don't have enough hours in the day! Do people actually read every post in a thread or just glance over? Maybe I should just skim through and not read them word for word.

Blu