It's been awhile, so I think it's time for an update. IMO I personally feel that if we are going to give advice and 2*4 others, then we owe it to the community to share our own sitch.
We are getting close to the end of the Retrouvaille program. I have said before that we are not Catholic, however we appreciate the program, the teachings, and the overall goals. It is an international program and anyone is welcome to attend; couples (and priests) share a wealth of information on the importance of marriage and the steps needed to have a long term successful marriage. A lot of the tools we are learning are invaluable--communicating feelings, being personally accountable, and accepting that everything is a choice (marriage, love, forgiveness, etc). It's quite impressive actually.
That's the good stuff and I still do highly recommend it.
Here is where I am getting thrown off. I am starting to feel that the indoctrination is getting in the way of what I am trying to get out of it. Could it simply be that some of the presenting couples are more fundamental in their beliefs than others? The last session we were basically told that if we want to save our M, then we need to go to church together and pray together. I love that you are so fair with your comments. Though I'm Catholic, h was not (he became atheist in past 5 years (or more??)
So I was leary of anything that might press religion too much. It would turn h off.
OTOH, I do think if h had continued believing in something, he'd have behaved differently, and we'd probably still be m.
Maybe that's like me saying "if h had more values like mine...etc"?
The other reaction to your question is, maybe the more "fundamental" couples may well have Not started out that way but after they began digging in, they did. Or maybe that's why they were able to commit again?
The couples at our retrovaille had been thru he11, but they did seem bonded. I recall thinking "Good grief, if THEY can make it...!" It takes a lot of faith in something bigger than us, to forgive, IMO.
Without getting into my history in religion and H's history (why he became a MNG and our M failed, as he had an over-controlling Catholic mother), buuutttttt telling us TAHT is the last thing we need to hear to save our M. We are going to try and stay open-minded and complete the program, however we now must do so much more guarded.
ironic. About 9 days ago I posted here on DB about my very positive DivorceCare support group (it's hosted by a Presbyterian church in my area, and it's national. I'm not sure if it's always in their church. But they don't require that we join). There is a group leader from the church, who conducts the meetings and makes sure we begin/end on time.
My group is so open and supportive, that we socialize a lot. After every meeting, we go for pizza and beer and we hang out.
Someone posted on this site, that in their area the dogma is being pushed too much.
I shared my very different experience herein,
and dang if the next night, I felt hammered with fundamentalist Christian dogma in the group's video presentation.
I live in a very diverse part of the country and have friends and co-workers of all world faiths, and I have yet to see a strong correlation between religion and M success. In fact the couples that I think have strong marriages happen to me agonist (atheist). well that has not been my experience, but then, It's not as if I have taken a scientific poll. I read that people who marry in (a) church have a lower divorce rate. Not sure if that's true. But I've heard and read it a few times.
For me, marriage was more of a commitment partly b/c of my faith, but hey, here I am.
Am I suggesting that this data should mean anything about the program? No, but I am saying that couples can have lasting and loving Ms without going to church together and praying. There are so many reasons people stay together, and while religion/faith may help for some, it is not the only reason. of course
There have also been some presenting couples that have talked about the abuse they have endured and that they still choose to stay and work on the M. That has caused me some mixed emotions TBH. There are a few presenting couples that come to mind that my initial thought has been "why are you still together?"
the abuse was inside the marriage? Ugh. Yikes. I can understand your concern.
In our Retrovaille the single most difficult challenge in the presenting couples, was for the two couples who lost children. (I can't even...) And affairs.
The goal of the presenting couples are to go over the material in the post-sessions, but it is also to show newbies that really any M can be saved if both people decide to and do the work. That is correct and they are proving it's true. Me personally, there are just things that I could not endure and some of these people have accepted horrific abuses. Yeah, I hear you. (Gee, I guess the good news is that we'd have clarity.)
Lately, I have been again more focused on my own GAL. I cycle through times of doubt about my M and if I can forgive H. Will that last forever? - I still miss how I felt about him before the A. I want to feel that way about my partner in life. He is a good guy, he does all the things--remorse, great at validation, awesome dad and co-housekeeper, and he is all in--but my heart is not in it. He still had an A and left me for this ugly mistake. So while there are so many things I like about my H more now, the history is and will always be there. Will I learn to accept and embrace that over time? I can't say yet. you did mention that we all have choice. So? Or Is this a form of abuse for you? I'm asking, since you say that it's something you would not endure.
Guess your question is whether you are asking too much of yourself. Not whether you "should" but whether you can.
How can you figure that out?
I guess the difference now is that I don't feel as much emotion around it. I enjoy my day to day life, my family, my kiddos, my friendships, and my GAL. I have been running, swimming, hiking, and really enjoying my days off more than ever.
Blu
So is there really something to "decide" Now - or are you simply saying "hey, I'm in piecing - and it ain't for the feint of heart" ?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I hope you know the last question I posted for you was meant to help, (not smirk.)
We are both analyzers and imo, that's usually a great thing...
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I think I know what you are asking :-) Sometimes if I go back and reread a post that I wrote, I can see where I am actually contradicting myself; that definitely helps me check myself and helps me look at things more objectively. For example, I have said how the Retro program has drilled the point home that Love, M, and Commitment are all choices and not feelings (or should not be decided based on emotions). And I do agree with this. Then I turn around and say, "but it doesn't feel right." So what I am saying is that understanding and agreeing with this ideology is not necessarily making it easier for me. Making a choice that doesn't feel right is hard.
you did mention that we all have choice. So? Or Is this a form of abuse for you? I'm asking, since you say that it's something you would not endure.
Guess your question is whether you are asking too much of yourself. Not whether you "should" but whether you can.
How can you figure that out
The abuse that some of the presenting couples have described seems extreme IMO: some of them have been through repeated adultery, emotional, physical, and sexual abuse. I mean in the M with the same person they have restored their M with. Some of them have been abused by their partner for most of the M. It honestly shocked me. I think the affect that it could have had would be that any M can be salvaged if both partners agree, even in the worse of circumstances. However I found myself thinking that no one should put up with that and if this had happened to me, I would move on and never look back. ... So what tho, as I am sure many people would look at my sitch and what my H did and think the same. We can't live based on what other people think tho.
All that being said, I always told myself that any type of infidelity would be unforgivable. So here I am trying to undo that. And I still say that now--that if H ever betrayed me again, I would end the M and never look back. ... These sort of absolutes make it hard to forgive the past. Because even tho I know that love is a choice, I feel that by going against my promises to myself and forgiving him, that I am somehow now betraying myself.
Not sure if that makes sense. Maybe I just don't know what I am going to do.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
I think I know what you are asking :-) Sometimes if I go back and reread a post that I wrote, I can see where I am actually contradicting myself; that definitely helps me check myself and helps me look at things more objectively. For example, I have said how the Retro program has drilled the point home that Love, M, and Commitment are all choices and not feelings (or should not be decided based on emotions). And I do agree with this. Then I turn around and say, "but it doesn't feel right." So what I am saying is that understanding and agreeing with this ideology is not necessarily making it easier for me. Making a choice that doesn't feel right is hard.
all of this^^ makes sense. The last sentence highlighted above -is b/c I realize that when a choice is not hard, it's not really a choice. We just decide.
When a tough moral dilemma presents itself, I figure chances are that the harder option is the morally correct one. Why? Because if the easier option were morally superior to the alternative, we would not be struggling, we'd just decide.
Make sense?
you did mention that we all have choice. So? Or Is this a form of abuse for you? I'm asking, since you say that it's something you would not endure.
Guess your question is whether you are asking too much of yourself. Not whether you "should" but whether you can.
How can you figure that out
The abuse that some of the presenting couples have described seems extreme IMO: some of them have been through repeated adultery, emotional, physical, and sexual abuse. I mean in the M with the same person they have restored their M with.
ugh I HOPE that it means they somehow connected very deeply during the forgiveness and reconciliation phase. Maybe I have to believe that.
Or someone is sweeping under the rug and not enforcing a boundary, (maybe?)
And many years would have to pass before we could know for certain, I think.
Some of them have been abused by their partner for most of the M. It honestly shocked me. If it were physical abuse, - actually that would have at least been clear. But I'm with you on being a bit stumped.
And yet I just specified "physical"^^^ abuse above. Hmm. Yeah it's more dramatic and dangerous. But there are other forms...
Hey, I've been swirling a bit today (it's h's birthday today. It's the first one since 1979 that I did not plan for, or do something. And this Monday we will have been sep a year, which is the last time I saw him.)
ANYWAY
I see h differently now. Not putting it all on him. I would do many things differently if I went back in time. And I'd accept less crap, too. - I see some lousy things h did that I glossed over before, and some were long ago. (Not all of it was recent "new h" stuff.)
Some of it looks pretty neglectful or abusive to me now, but then, I'm looking at the past with a new lens.(Nothing physical, to be clear).
It's Embarrassing to be honest. Here is the thing, I put up with too much in hindsight. But I'm Not sure if a single incident is worth leaving - but when you add them up cumulatively, it looks surprisingly bad.
Those women in the abusive marriages, Blu -when you are in the maze, you don't know it's a maze.
Sorry to ramble. I do feel for you. I want it to work for you, but only if you come to feel love for and from your h and are at peace.
-However I found myself thinking that no one should put up with that and if this had happened to me, I would move on and never look back. ... So what tho, as I am sure many people would look at my sitch and what my H did and think the same. We can't live based on what other people think tho.
All that being said, I always told myself that any type of infidelity would be unforgivable. So here I am trying to undo that. And I still say that now--that if H ever betrayed me again, I would end the M and never look back. ...
These sort of absolutes make it hard to forgive the past. Because even tho I know that love is a choice, I feel that by going against my promises to myself and forgiving him, that I am somehow now betraying myself.
Not sure if that makes sense. Maybe I just don't know what I am going to do.
Blu
it makes sense.
When you told yourself that "any type of infidelity would be unforgivable" -
Was it the imagined anger you had back then, preemptively, or that you assumed you just could not forgive it, or that you knew something about yourself?
Regardless, it's not as if you have to keep that "vow" to withhold forgiveness. You are re-examining a boundary that you (kind of) set for yourself many years ago.
FWIW, you'll probably do the same with your kids when they are in their teen years
and You do have choice.
Or are you wondering if you are in the "maze" and just not seeing it?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
25, I don't know. My head hurts trying to think about those answers. I just don't know. I mean that. And I am so, so sad as of late. I'm not doing too well these days; having trouble sleeping and poor appetite. Feeling anxious like I did post BD. It's hard for me to post when things are not going well. I have been honest with H about my feelings. He listens, apologizes, feels like there is nothing more he can do, and so it goes. I'm tired.
I hate to let people down; it seems some of you look to me for hope. I'm sorry, but today I can't give that. I don't want to say too much more now. But I will say that there is a man giving me a lot of attention these days. I like it. The guilt I feel is tremendous. Then I feel rage at H: I am not having an A, so how could you? I don't want to hurt you, so how could you? Again, how could you do that to us? .... but I do like the attention from this man, I cannot lie. I also recognize this is making things worse .... again the guilt ... then anger .... and round I go. And no, I have not told my H about this. That's the part that feels bad.
Now listen here, I don't want all you scorned LBH to come swinging hard and telling me I'm going wayward! I am on your team, remember? I will say tho, I am starting to see how it happens. I am starting to understand how a friendship can go to an EA. I feel something shifting in me--not an A, but perhaps understanding how they work. .... . I'm so confused at the same time. Unfortunately, this confusion only pulls me further away from H. He made a choice, he wasn't a victim. Every time I allow this OM to flirt, I make a choice too.
I think it's time for a new thread. I don't know if I have the energy for a new thread. I'm tired.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
I actually think I GET what you are saying. I almost said to my H the day he dropped the bomb on me about the one night stand- it could just have easily happened to me.
THAT DOES NOT EXCUSE IT. But if I'm honest, there were times in my first marriage that were so awful, and I got the slightest attention from another man, I could feel the shot of adrenaline, the rush, the heat, and if they had pushed, well I don't know.
The difference is..... I did NOT cheat. I got a divorce instead. Because life was so horrible I did not even care if I lived or not.
I'm just sayin....... don't beat yourself up. You keep posting girl, and being vulnerable and honest on here. That's the only way any of us can help anyone else.
M-60 H-51 M-14 years BD 12/26/16 S 1/1/17
"First the pain, then the rising." Glennon Doyle Melton
Blu I am sorry that you are struggling. I have no words to help you through.
I would comment that it is commendable that H is attentive to you and your lack of enthusiasm hasn't made his WAS self reappear. That says something about him. I also believe if reflects your own worth.
I am glad you have the courage to continue posting. There are learnings for everyone in it, plus your insight can help some people have empathy for the struggle of their own WAS.
I hope you find your way to reconnect and love him again. I don't see that happening until you can get passed the resentment you feel about his choices previously. But above all I wish you happiness.
Best wishes
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
Hi Blu, I too am sorry if this is a rough patch. It's a tough one for sure. His past poor choices are of course his to own - and from all that you post it sounds as though he is doing his best to invest in the R now. Your feelings and reactions about his past poor choices are of course yours to own - though his current support and behaviour is important too - ie: helping you heal.
When I thought of the possibility of XH and me reconciling - I liked to think that I could be as forgiving as the next person - perhaps more so? But it isn't easy for sure. I still feel I would be glad if things didn't work out with OW - that's not true forgiveness is it and here I am 3 years on. I still feel I wouldn't want to have to see XH and OW - even though they are very much a unit now - and if he and I had kids together, I would probably have to suck that up and get on with it...
I think I need and would like to do more reading around the whole area of forgiveness. I'd love to get to the point where I can genuinely release what has happened and truly wish them well. I'm not there yet - partly there for sure but not fully...
You may also want to take the pressure off yourself/yourselves and just coast a little too - no big decisions have to be made right now..
Take care and I value your postings and your insight as I'm sure many on the site do.
Xx
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Blu, I was thinking about the loss of the "Innocence of Love" that I find myself feeling nowadays, and how you had mentioned something similar in the past. Decided to come on the board and get caught up in some sitch's and saw your last update.
I posted something similar in the past, but I was separated (Newly Separated) and the woman was newly married. I remember how fast and naturally it happened, nothing inappropriate happened, but it didn't take long before we started feeling in a way that would be inappropriate for a married Woman.
I think the only reason it stopped was because I was all to familiar with the destruction that it could cause, and I made a conscious effort to stop it, and it was oh so difficult to push her away. I sometimes wonder how that would have ended if I had met this woman before there was an A in my marriage.
I won't say what your doing makes you good or bad, I would only say that if you want to do it, don't hide it. Make that decision and let your H know if that's what you want. You get to decide what you want in life, I just hope you don't get yourself into an uncomfortable situation because you deferred making a choice.
M - 9 1/2 years 5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA 10/31/16 - We sold house 01/10/18 - D Finalized
I HOPE that it means they somehow connected very deeply during the forgiveness and reconciliation phase. Maybe I have to believe that.