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#2744775 05/26/17 01:08 PM
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Hi everyone, I am new to this forum. I am going to try to be clear and succinct. I will fail miserably at both so please ask for clarifications.

For years I neglected to take seriously the problems with my behavior in the marriage. Some of it was me not being able to enjoy small moments (I am always planning for the future, and have in fact recently managed to get the retirement package swell for both of us and now when I need to sign...I am trying to delay that process as I don't know if financially it still makes sense for myself on one salary... I am also always focused on chores). I didn't appreciate alone time and what it meant to W. I was bad with gifts and always seemed to mess up (her love language is gifts, mine is service). When the last time we had an explosive fight she came back and unlike other times we didn't seem to reconcile. I went into a full on let's fight for this marriage mode which let her to laugh at it. But I also addressed several behavioral issues. I became less of an angry driver, I focused more on listening to her rather than trying to fix challenges, I respected her alone time... I bought all sort of gifts and surprises. But it all seemed to fall on deaf ears. She said it was nice and she appreciated it but she was simply not in love anymore and wished I addressed these sooner. I wrote her lengthy emails (seriously...the new war and peace was written by me in a night!) Some of it is ADD which I always had but felt I had under control...but since I put so many things in routines and I get anxious when things don't go according to plan. (She actually got me a fidget spinner after I mentioned that some of the problems come from that and how I am trying to calm down.)

After doing some internet research I came across several places that all suggested the LRT or variations thereof. It made sense to me to stop the chase since she is conflicted about her feelings and working on myself made a lot of sense.

But I don't know if that is the right step for me or if I should try to date her again. Last night she said she just wants to date and not married and my response was that I don't want this marriage either because let's face it we messed it up (I used a different word) but what I wanted was a new marriage. (True story: my planning nature had for months been working on getting a new vow ceremony with new ring for her in November when we would have known each other for 10 years..in August we will be married 7 years). She seemed surprised when I said that and replied saying that if we get back together it has to be different and cannot be what we had. So this is where I am conflicted with the LRT or if I should suggest a small date.

To give you an example of where it is conflicting. She was upset I never wanted to go to the theme parks (we live three hours from Orlando and I am the only driver) and in December I opened up one of the parks and she got excited and of course because I am an idiot I started doing the math in my head and it was getting too expensive. So earlier this week when I was out of state (her suggestion was that I deserved a trip) we spoke occasionally through text that it had been five years since we went to a park. When I got back home I suggested we go this weekend and her first answer was why and then I said well because it will be fun and I regret not going in December (she then brought up other previous incidents where I didn't act appropriately...and I agreed that I wasn't the best but am trying to change that). this was followed by me going to my bedroom (yes we now have our own bedrooms) and she followed me asking if I was okay I said yes I just want to go read. That is when the conversation on dating and marriage came up. But then this morning she mentioned how she has always wanted to go to a particular park. She says on the one hand she is done. But she also keeps bringing these things up (usually after I am just doing my own thing). So I don't know if I should push and do these things or instead just completely not react to it and continue the LRT.

This has been going on for years (our ups and downs but I was always a forgive and forget person in fights whereas W is more of the view that what you say in a fight is how you feel) but this latest phase began early to mid April. I have stopped saying ILY for over a week. I have stopped doing surprises (except when I came back from the trip to which she seemed glad I got it but a little sad because I didn't have to do that...my logic was to pull the 180...do the things I never did). I also hadn't always been good at messaging when I was away on trips and I purposefully sent her a good morning good luck today text.

As to how much time I have...I don't know. W wants to move on her own but has mentioned it will be very financially challenging. I don't know if it is a test to see if I change or if the financial worry is ALL that is keeping her but she has been more affectionate lately. Definitely trusting more in communication and the night before I left she even cuddled me in bed and suggested we could fool around. I was extremely tired and was very scared about rushing things so I just cuddled her and we dozed off and yesterday she was thankful we didn't move further. Two weeks earlier she said she misses intimacy of all sorts but that she is worried it will go back to same old routines. I desperately need hugs and kisses and confirmation that we can face this together but I understand she isn't there yet. She said yesterday that it has been nice these past few weeks without fighting but that it feels like we are old friends and not anything more. I told her that that is also because I respected her need for space. Hence my confusion as to what to do. I don't want to rush it...but I also know every situation is different and if there is a chance to heal together we should do it together as a team ASAP. But if that healing is more effective later I can wait...

W is also considering doing a PhD in a different state and has spoken in I terms as to what can be done to get there. She does use we but it's to fix up the house (that we own and need to sell) and still does nice things around the house (my love language is service and I take it as a small sign of victory that when I was gone she was cleaning). She also talks about what we need to get for me in terms of clothes. But it seems every time she gets closer she freaks out and goes back to being cold. It's why I stuck with not forcing ILY on her and keeping my distance (ending conversations before she does).

The biggest obstacle is that she is no longer real comfortable being naked around me. I think she is trying to create that as a boundary but that has been a shift. But then at other times she lays on her bed kind of waiting for me without saying that she wants to cuddle but almost hoping I say something (her eyes tell weird stories sometimes). I have been sticking with the LRT but like I said at times I am doubting the wisdom of that.

TL;DR It's clear she cares about me. She calls me very attractive and that we don't have to hate each other if the marriage is over. She has noticed positive changes. The LRT seems to work to some degree but the challenge is her seeing us as friends lately might confirm her decision that it's over. We do have a 10 year age difference but I never felt she was younger.

So any advice? (I ordered the MR book and it will arrive sunday...I ordered a cooking book just in case she sees the package as well and I recently began more cooking...something she had always wanted me to do.)

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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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Welcome aboard. Make sure you read the homework on Cadet's post.

Quote:
For years I neglected to take seriously the problems with my behavior in the marriage.


Have you told us all the issues of your behavior, or is there more?

Quote:
Some of it was me not being able to enjoy small moments (I am always planning for the future


What have you done to gain information in how to balance your focus on the future with appreciating life in the present?

Has your W complained about you focusing on your retirement? Has she ever accused you of pinching pennies for the same reason ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^?

Quote:
I am also always focused on chores)


I can completely relate. Maybe it's due to our personality types or how we were raised......IDK. Isn't it funny how we often marry someone who is complete opposite?

Have you considered setting personal goals to help you in these two areas? Have you ever talked to a counselor to seek some ways in how to balance these drives you have?

Quote:
I didn't appreciate alone time and what it meant to W.


Please clarify.

Quote:
I was bad with gifts and always seemed to mess up (her love language is gifts, mine is service).


What do you mean by "mess up"?

Quote:
When the last time we had an explosive fight she came back and unlike other times we didn't seem to reconcile. I went into a full on let's fight for this marriage mode which let her to laugh at it.


She came back? Did she leave you? What do you mean let her laugh at it?

You said you respected her alone time. She does not work a job, right? She stays at home? Why does she feel you were not respecting her alone time? How long has this been going on........about her alone time? Is it time after you come home from work, that she wants this "alone time"?

I just want to comment on doing 180's. You probably should not 180 everything. The most common mistake I see H's make in 180's is when he tries to take on the cooking and house chores of his SAHW. If you are the breadwinner and she is home all day......do not go home and do all her work too (unless there is something you haven't told us).

Quote:
but since I put so many things in routines and I get anxious when things don't go according to plan.


It's when things don't go according to YOUR plan. Isn't that more accurate? I'm not picking on you, b/c I use to be the same way..........especially if I had worked hard in preparing for the "thing" to happen. Others can see us as controllers or being selfish......or even immature b/c we don't like when things don't go the way we planned. This is something we can control, and if not then talk to a counselor.

Is it difficult for you to relax? Do you feel you should always be active? These issues can be very irritating for the spouse, especially if she is laid back and easy going.

Quote:
After doing some internet research I came across several places that all suggested the LRT or variations thereof. It made sense to me to stop the chase since she is conflicted about her feelings and working on myself made a lot of sense.


Has she said she wants a divorce? It sounds as if she wants the benefits the M provides, but she doesn't want you.

How long have you been sleeping in separate bedrooms? What started it?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Thanks for your response. Let me try this quote function.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Have you told us all the issues of your behavior, or is there more?


I am fairly certain I covered it: not being able to enjoy the moment, freaking out over money, angry driving, not actively listening to her. The other issues that bothered here were the fact she didn't have her own bank account (bad credit) and I always just treated our money as being for the both of us...Recently I suggested she open her own bank account which is what she wants but she hasn't acted on it. She also has an anxiety driving but now says that me not supporting her to drive was controlling. I was worried about her anxiety so I didn't mind driving her places. Of course during fights I got weak at times and said well I am always driving you places.

Oh one thing I DID leave out as well was that I was always on my phone. I forgot because this past month I had actually put it away...it has been her for quite some time who is always on her phone. I pointed it out a year or so ago and she would get mad because I was doing it too (which wasn't always the case).

Quote:
What have you done to gain information in how to balance your focus on the future with appreciating life in the present? Has your W complained about you focusing on your retirement? Has she ever accused you of pinching pennies for the same reason ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^?


Well I have been okay with spending money. She hasn't complained about me focusing on retirement. But it is more when bills start adding up that I get anxious.. when it's on its own I am much easier accepting that things cost money. I regret sometimes saying that we couldn't afford her going on a trip to visit her friend (who we just visited a few months prior) and that I rather wanted to travel with her. The only other real issue that I became aware of is that when she had a health issue I would always investigate cost and how much it would cost and she saw it as me not caring about her. But previously she would point out how I am always going with her and how she appreciates it.

A few months ago she offered to work on a budget since we need to plan better and initially I was insulted because I was taking care of it and suddenly she wanted to be involved. I didn't immediately see she felt left out of these decisions.

Quote:
Have you considered setting personal goals to help you in these two areas? Have you ever talked to a counselor to seek some ways in how to balance these drives you have?


Well here is where I haven't had a chance to show change. I never bothered that I was doing these chores because I wanted to make it easier on her. She saw it as me doing it without letting her help. She suggested a chore wheel during the first weekend of our recent situation but either she was gone or I was gone. I have told her I am willing to just negotiate with her who does what rather than me doing it all at once. I guess this weekend will be a test of that.

Quote:
I didn't appreciate alone time and what it meant to W.


People sometimes need to be alone. I would text her or ask her questions. Or send updates. I can be a little puppy at times. She just needs a little time to recharge. If she would go with friends I would give silly updates like I just did laundry or sent her a dumb news story. I haven't done that this past month but of course we haven't been a real couple either.

Quote:
What do you mean by "mess up"?


Somehow I always forgot a card to commemorate the moment. I would also buy her things she said she wanted but I was never good at being spontaneous or just figuring out what she wants. At times when I DID try she would be sad and say I didn't get what she wanted. Of course she has close friends who are really good at it.

Quote:
She came back? Did she leave you? What do you mean let her laugh at it?


No this is what happens when I type quickly and don't reread what I wrote...She didn't leave...it was more that she responded with laughter... Essentially saying that she tried for years to get my attention and now I suddenly want to work on it was just funny to her.

Quote:
You said you respected her alone time. She does not work a job, right? She stays at home? Why does she feel you were not respecting her alone time? How long has this been going on........about her alone time? Is it time after you come home from work, that she wants this "alone time"?


We actually work at the same place and since she doesn't drive I am her driver. But yes, essentially at different moments she likes to have some recharge time.

Quote:
I just want to comment on doing 180's. You probably should not 180 everything. The most common mistake I see H's make in 180's is when he tries to take on the cooking and house chores of his SAHW. If you are the breadwinner and she is home all day......do not go home and do all her work too (unless there is something you haven't told us).


The 180 is more that I let her do her own things, I don't randomly make her bed or say ILY. Or that during arguments I just let it go now... I realized a big issue was that I wanted to be right which meant as much as I tried to not let it escalate I would get this dumb idea to be outsmarting her which of course never worked because all I said was hurtful things. I stopped doing that. I stopped contacting her for the most part and let her take the lead on that. I quit talking about the future other than suggest ways she can make it work financially to pursue her PhD.

Quote:
It's when things don't go according to YOUR plan. Isn't that more accurate? I'm not picking on you, b/c I use to be the same way..........especially if I had worked hard in preparing for the "thing" to happen. Others can see us as controllers or being selfish......or even immature b/c we don't like when things don't go the way we planned. This is something we can control, and if not then talk to a counselor.


No offense taken smile that is exactly what it is. I realized that lately. I wasn't trying to be controlling but in many ways I was controlling. Plus she used to be agoraphobic when we met and didn't really want to leave...she recently has gotten more friends and more confidence. I thought we enjoyed binge watching Netflix or just sitting and watching dumb tv but that seems to have suddenly shifted. I don't think I missed a comment on that but I wasn't always the best listener.

Quote:
Is it difficult for you to relax? Do you feel you should always be active? These issues can be very irritating for the spouse, especially if she is laid back and easy going.


Yes. But I am better at it. Funny thing was about two weeks into this situation we had concert tickets and we went and I even booked a hotel which was something she had always wanted us to do and I in fact requested late check out. I have actually been surprised how easy I am with just being a bit more patient. I would say I am impressed with myself but not unless she is back focused on us. Part of what I changed was sudden and such a change from almost seven years of marriage that I cannot blame her she is suspicious about me truly changing.

In fact, after I posted on here she blew up in my face about some comment I made saying I don't know much else about some event tomorrow and she said see there is the real you...it was all fakeness how you changed. I was really confused but I essentially said...well I don't know much else and I wasn't yet sure if I would go. At home she was a bit nicer but I decided I needed to go walk around the neighborhood so I left and she said my legs look nice and when I came back she was sleeping.

Quote:
Has she said she wants a divorce? It sounds as if she wants the benefits the M provides, but she doesn't want you. p/quote]

Yes. But and here is where I should have taken it more seriously. We have been fighting on and off over the years. I always saw it as our way of addressing issues but I now realize we never addressed it. She has said she wanted to leave me for several times and then would come back and apologize or just ignore the issue. These past few weeks she keeps changing what it is she wants. I went from a divorce to a trial separation to now living in the same home but acting like roommates. From saying she doesn't see how there is anything left to saying she feels she needs to be out of the home before we can get back together to yesterday saying if we get back together it has to be different. I am trying to figure out if her still living here is ONLY because financially there are some things she needs to work out or if she wants to just see how long I keep this "act" going. Which the answer is: forever since it makes me a better person and I am finally aware of what she seems to need.

[quote] How long have you been sleeping in separate bedrooms? What started it?


Well I am not an easy sleeper. I steal the blanket and kick her at night. On a king bed that is fine but a queen it's too small so she moved out long before this recent phase. It actually brought some spice back for a bit which was also odd because she seduced me only a few nights before all of this went down.

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Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.


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I am impressed at how you have identified your behavior issues and are working to change for the better. In many cases the spouse sees sudden change and thinks it is a ploy to get her back. I suggest you not tell her you are a new person or have changed, etc. It takes time and much effort to change a lifetime (or adult) behavior. Although her words probably hurt, try to shake it off and don't go into "explaining". This is something she will just have to see for herself, after you've proven it several times.

That reminds of another common mistake I see in H's. They go into explaining things way too much. It's usually when the W makes some type of comment about him and he starts explaining. I don't think it helps his case, and many times he will use statements he draws from the forum........and it doesn't sound authentic to her. That's just a tip, for whatever it's worth.

I'm glad you told me about her working. Do you see each other at the work place?

Quote:
I left and she said my legs look nice and when I came back she was sleeping.


confused Is this a same sex M?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Haha no I am a man. But I am not a stereotypical male (although some of the traits slipped into my behavior: the yelling at tv during sports, yelling cars, the wanting to watch a game rather than do something with her). Initially I decided to stop watching sports but that was not authentic she even told me that I should watch games. So I did and have been way more calm watching them. But those things don't define me...it's more of an escape. But I did go a little overboard. And now I just want to do more things with her...but of course she isn't there (yet? ever?).

Her comments about legs was that they looked like they got some muscles. We both had been working on getting healthy, we ran a lot of races together and it was a blast but at some point she got injured. Initially I kept going to races until I realized she wanted to do them with me. I kind of gained some weight back which scared me and scared her. But she is also dealing with negative body issues and calls herself fat. But after my pants didn't fit and I had to buy new ones I made a commitment to get healthier again. So I got a fitbit and like so many things I got obsessive on walking every hour, sometimes even running around the living room. But she has been commenting all this time about how I look good and looks like I lost weight. And how she said even though she is not IL with me that she still cares about me.

Don't be impressed. I am very late in acknowledging my flaws. The thing was that I blamed her for being angry and not caring about me and not appreciating what I did. I was too blind. (The real irony is that I actually teach about marriage and relationships...but like I heard from a former student: we are often so good at helping others and not applying these things to ourselves. As I told my wife...that we messed this up over the years and she tried to address issues and I was always afraid to open up wounds and things seemed to always get back to a balance. Looking back I see so many small moments where I just didn't stop to think for a second. Things I recommend my students to do I didn't do. Or took for granted. Or just thought well this is how we work.)

Welp. Your warning for explaining things is on point....It didn't help that I wrote lengthy emails explaining that I was changing. I stopped doing that after her reaction to them was mostly cold and negative. She did say I hope you are doing it for yourself. I decided to write letters because I always seemed to say the wrong things. I haven't written anything for two weeks or so and not told her ILY. It's been extremely hard but by doing it I have seen the most progress in her seeking ME out. I did in these letters say that I know it will take time for her to see these changes and that she may never get there. But of course I now see that was still me trying to force a reaction. I was also worried that with no real intimacy that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy to confirm her feelings that we are friends. So I wrote that as well. She saw that as me asking for sex. But like I said I haven't done any of that in two weeks.

I have been trying to do my own thing (I suppose that is the GAL) but it is also hard. I am trying to not always clean up but sometimes it's just so easy to do it. Like this morning I decided to make us breakfast and she said I am a great cook and that it surprises her I am not confident in my own skills. But when I was doing that I cleaned up the sink and she commented that she could do those things too but just not right now. But I am trying to be authentic. Normally I would have already started brewing coffee for us to have ready for the coming week. I would have done some loads of laundry etc. She just seemed so exhausted and it really wasn't that much to do.

I am not the most patient person...so I think that is been the biggest shock to her that I probably do seem more patient. I am not convinced I fully succeed at it yet but I definitely have been more okay with just waiting.

So okay. Last night after I wrote my reply...it was about 11:30pm here and I saw she woke up from her nap (since we got home from work) and when I walked by and looked inside the room. She was a bit irritated (she did JUST wake up) and said: what? And I asked if she was hungry. She said yes and sighed. Since I didn't want to start an argument I walked away. She closed her door and then later asked if I wanted to order pizza since we hadn't eaten. After I placed the order. She suddenly opened her door and walked into "my" (hate saying that, especially since it's the nicer one) room with tears. And I asked what was wrong. She said you know what is wrong. Leaned over to me and let me hug her. Then she got up and went somewhere. I had to leave to do something and we met in the hallway and she stood there for a second before hugging me and grabbing me tight. She said it's not easy. And I said something like I know it isn't but that everything will be alright regardless what happens (I think I said that second part but sometimes I think things and don't say them). The pizza came and we watched some things and laughed.

Then this morning she went into my bed and asked how I was feeling (we both have been dealing with some allergies) and if I had any plans for the day. Then she said that she kind of wants to do something during this longer weekend. I suggested going to one of the parks since she had mentioned wanting to do that. But she said it's too late for today and it's going to get packed.

So that is where I am at. I just don't know if she is determined to leave and just hates the consequences that she will be in much dire financial situation OR if she is desperately trying to get her feelings for me back. OR if she really just wants the M to be different. I think me telling her that I want a new marriage WITH her gave her some perspective that I am not just going to be happy the way it used to be. But it's hard to figure out what to do. My gut tells me to keep the LRT going but my heart tells me to hug her and kiss her. But I am trying to not do that until SHE says she wants us to work on it. Or SHE wants to stay. So far the closest has been that she mentions a potential future together but that she doesn't feel it right now.

Oh. You asked about work. Yes, she has been coming by for lunch. Yesterday she mentioned: wait, I cannot just come here, are you okay with me being here. Most of the communication during the day SHE initiates although we know a lot of the same people so sometimes I have to share something with her. Only other communication I initiate there is: how is the day going especially when she had mentioned having a lot of appointments.

The DR book arrives tomorrow. I am a little worried she will see the package but there is a cook book in it so it will likely be alright. I did leave another book about transforming marriage on the table when she got back from her trip two weeks ago...I kind of forgot it was there but she pointed out that she had read a list online with signs why people divorce that one of the authors had written. But my fear is that she will see this as me not being genuine. On the other hand, she knows I read a lot online for all sorts of topics so it wouldn't surprise her that I would try to improve myself. But my objective is to show her that I am still myself.

And that is enough rambling for now...

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A colleague of mine (and mutual friend of W and me) mentioned going to an event. I had mentioned it to my W on Friday and she told another colleague to go as well. That is when I was called fake when I said I don't have many more details. (and later that night she came to my room in tears). So yesterday I hadn't decided if I was going to go but when W was napping that colleague asked again. I tried to wake her but couldn't. So I left a text saying I was going to meet him. She first said to have fun and later seemed upset no one invited her. I said well he told me so it goes without saying you are invited as well.

This is one of many moments where I am mostly confused. She says she wants out but is then not happy when she is not involved in plans. I didn't want to say...besides you wanted out as it would start a fight.

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Of course after I post that she wakes up and says she hates this place (home? state?). Doesn't want to be here. I suggest we can do something and she says you don't feel well (allergies) and there is nothing fun to do here. She later said she is depressed and how it is not easy having to think of every little detail she needs to do (which is weird since I offered help with several things: getting her a bank account, getting her driving lessons, looking at apartments, offering basically low financial stress). And she says (with tears) that she is depressed because doing things with me just don't feel good anymore. And she hates that feeling. I point out that we haven't really done anything fun lately...and she said yeah because it doesn't feel good.

It really feels like the "don't believe anything she says and only half of what she does" but she is clearly repressing her feelings for me. Anytime I keep my distance she comes looking for me and is in tears. Which makes me think there is SOMETHING ELSE I should be doing rather than keep my distance. She says she has no feelings for me, but grabs me tighter during hugs lately, she wants me to rub her back and says it feels good and is in tears.

I realize this is not me but her needing to process these things and I cannot do that for her. But it is also so extremely hard.

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Tobias,

Your W clearly has not sure what she really wants from the sound of things. Which in my opinion works in your favour. If she claims to want to leave the MR to be on her own. Don't throw it in her face. But simply mention that you left with the intent on giving her time alone at home. And that your just giving her what she asked for. I've dealing with something in my sitch with my own W. She went from not wanting me in the same room to joining me where I'm located when I've been out of sight for too long. She'll now send me invites to places, text and emails. I can tell she wants to be in the MR by her actions, but stubbornness seems to block all that. And I have the feeling your W will likely be the same way. She'll fight you and try to prove your changes aren't authentic. But its going to take time and patience. So just hang in there and allow the changes to happen naturally. Don't expect to be this much better person in a day or a week.


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I am having a rough time... the cookbook came and she saw it and got excited so I said you pick a recipe and I will make it. So I go to the store and when I come back I saw a note on her bed where she is writing things down on what to do to live on her own. Very short basically utilities and utensils but still... I was hoping she wasn't going to take this step. On it she has separation agreement written. And earlier today she did mention seeing an apartment close to work but it is pricey.

I know I can survive on my own but I don't want to. I was hoping with time and patience she will see that the changes I made are genuine. But I haven't gotten a chance to show her a better side when doing fun things. She is intentionally trying to not do those things.

I am just going to have to accept it's over but not be sad and angry about it. But it's soooo hard.

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What a weird day... so here is another update.... I went to go see a movie and when I came back W greeted me in tears and said how she doesn't feel anything. Nothing sounds like fun to her. She seemed in major despair so we hugged and we cuddled a bit. She then initiated more physical contact saying that she doesn't want to give me false hope and I said I don't have false hope I know it won't be fixed overnight and she said: maybe ever. And I said. Yes that is possible. She then initiated sex which we did. I know the rules say not to do that but given her despair and given the many mixed signals I figured this may give some kind of positive boost.

She then later came over to my room and said she is conflicted about what happened because she wanted to keep that boundary. But it was HER who initiated (as it was a week ago before I left for a trip...but at that point nothing happened). She said the most likely option is still for this to be over. She said it felt good but different since it lacked that lovey-dovey feeling.

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I got weak...and checked her computer and there it was evidence...she cheated. I don't even know this person who was texting with this guy.

I confronted her and she said it's not that serious and I didn't want to hurt you. Ugh...

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So I made some errors by telling a few close friends that I found out... I was so hurt by her cold reaction to me finding out. After I told them she came to me and for the first time in a while we talked for a few hours and fell asleep in the same bed. She mentioned why she went for this and how it felt and how there are many things that wouldn't work between them.

This morning she freaked out when she asked me if I had told anyone. I wanted to be truthful. She has been exhausted but has spend a bit of a time together. I showed her the sex starved marriage book as it seems our libidos never matched up...although we both wanted more sex but it just never clicked the right way.

She said last night that the OM actually helped her appreciate me more and almost make these past few weeks so much better with me. But that she didn't tell me because she had made the decision to leave before she met him and it was starting to fizzle out anyway.

I don't know how to feel. Somehow I want to make it work even more as I am so mad at myself for apparently neglecting her so much. Although she seems to only look at the negatives. She said OM opens doors, compliments her look, tells her she smells right. Things I have done and said but not always. From the texts I also learned she likes that he is dominant in the bedroom which is something I wish she would have addressed with me.

It's going to be rough getting back on track but I told her ILY. And I want to make it work. We need to start small. I definitely need to stop talking to others...but I was in such a lonely place and deep down I knew she was seeing someone else. So it was almost better that that was uncovered...as she was starting to treat me like the OM and the OM as her H.

Maybe now she will give it her attention since we do seem to have a strong bond. There are just things we need to work out.

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Sorry to hear about your W cheating. But at least you now know what pushed your W into wanting to leave. Don't get me wrong the neglect was a big part. But I have discovered that there is always a trigger that makes WS decide to leave. So your W is most likely lying about knowing she wanted to leave prior. Also your W is making no sense. The OM helped her appreciate you more. How is that? Especially when you say that she is only looking at the negative in you. But yet speaks about how great the OM is.

Did you ask for any details in regards to OM? Does OM have a w or does he work with your W? Don't get me wrong. Your focus should be solely on your MR, but these are details that you should know about. Because OP will always have a place in blocking when your trying to make changes in your MR.

Also what do you mean by strong bond.? Has she now shown signs of wanting to possibly make the MR work now that the truth is out there?


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Quote:
What a weird day... so here is another update.... I went to go see a movie and when I came back W greeted me in tears and said how she doesn't feel anything. Nothing sounds like fun to her


What are the ages of you and W? No offense, but she sounds very young and/or immature. She clearly has you wrapped around her little finger, which seems to be the case with the majority of newly LBH'S.

Quote:
She seemed in major despair so we hugged and we cuddled a bit. She then initiated more physical contact saying that she doesn't want to give me false hope and I said I don't have false hope I know it won't be fixed overnight and she said: maybe ever


For whatever reason you were led to think she had a change of heart.........she has not. It always makes me nervous when I hear about a W cheating and then seducing her H to have sex with her. I have a couple of immediate thoughts as to why she would........and neither are good. It would be easy if things could be fixed that easily, but it's not that simple anymore.

All cheaters have something in common. They are deceitful. From this point going forward, you need to protect yourself, before anything else. You will not be able to trust her word or actions alone.

Do you know if she has had sex with the OM?

Have you confronted her about the affair? If not, wait until we can discuss it more, before jumping into confrontation.

Never tell her how much you know, or the source.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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We do have about a 10 year age gap. She is 30, I am turning 41. She never was immature but I have felt her age is acting up now.

She knows what I know and she has been very upfront about it as well after I called her out on it. I took pictures just in case this isn't salvageable and the divorce can be filed for infidelity but I want to see if we can overcome this. It truly seems she was feeling isolated. And from what I have seen OM gave her attention more than anything. They did have sex about two times. The hurtful part is more that she lied when I asked her twice about it. And that I was trying to give her attention too...she just saw it as not being genuine because where was this H all these years? Well he had been there but inconsistently.

She said the OM made her realize things we are compatible with and by looking at me as a friend she got more compassion for me. Maybe she cannot be trusted but I have to figure that out. She told me this morning that she liked being sexual with me but that she doesn't know if she did it because she was afraid or because she wanted to. I told her we need to take this a day at a time. I told her that while there are a lot of complications we also have a history. The things we did yesterday where things she felt were missing all these years. But we also addressed several challenges that we needed to work on.

Some of what she describes conflicts with what happened. Like she felt these past few weeks I wouldn't even care if she slept with someone else because I didn't seem to show any signs. Which isn't true...except that for the past three weeks I stopped saying ILY and I stopped sending a ton of messages.

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Hello Tobias,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

Little compares to the devastation people feel when they discover their spouse has been unfaithful. Couples often struggle to get past intense emotional pain, mistrust, resentment and never ending arguments about the betrayal. Healing from infidelity is achievable for both of you with the right support and tools.

It sounds like your changes have been noticed, just difficult to believe at this point. These changes need to be made for you. They need to be long lasting and sincere. Prove that to yourself and anyone else through your actions, not your words.

You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004


A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.

Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
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So this past week has been in some ways the closest we have been. Yet she still talks to this OM and plans to meet him on Sunday. But she wants a date with me today. She said she has a desire to have sex with others and I am not opposed to that but I feel we need to first work on us. She said this week for the first time she can see a future with me but she isn't there yet. There is a lot of hurt that I neglected her.

She said if I cannot let her hang out with him and that it is first to have a friendship with him and possibly have sex. She says OM asked her what was happening with us and for the first time she says she told him she agreed to work on it with me. But I don't know if that's true and if it's true what he responded with. She feels trapped and lonely and isolated and from the messages I read he did treat her well and showed her attention and seems an okay person. So if it's just different sex she wants to experience I can live with that. But I also am vulnerable about us.

She noticed I ordered the sex starved marriage and so much of what happened with us was described in there. I want her to read it but she doesn't yet seem ready. We HAVE both been exhausted and she has been sick lately (she even says she doesn't know if she even feels well enough to have sex with him even if she wanted to).

She has acknowledged how she took the little things I did for granted and has expressed more gratitude towards me. I just keep going back and forth emotionally.

But it's a positive she wants to date today and that she has slowly been talking about moving somewhere together (e.g., "if you go there I can do gradschool there"), she shared annual passes for a park she wanted to do last year and I said no. This time I was ready to buy them but then she was like wait no let's not add another big purchase just yet. But she also mentioned a maid. I THINK (key word) she is genuine...and maybe she is just doing all this to see how serious I am about changing. I have been wrong towards her (that doesn't justify her cheating on me...).

She has also been more committed to seeing a therapist/counselor BUT then I doubt it when she still wants to hang out with him. She said she didn't want to hurt me but also feels she cannot just let this OM hanging since he was there for her as well. So maybe all they want to do is go out for dinner. Last week when I saw her devastated and she said she wants to kill herself and that she doesn't feel anything (before I discovered the messages) she said she was already feeling it was fizzling out (but the messages contradict that)...she said now that I know she feels safer if she can still see him.

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I just don't know what to do. She missed intimacy and didn't feel appreciated by me. So by me pulling away I feel I am doing the opposite of what I need to do. But we had a wonderful time yesterday but I feel by me trying to connect with her I am making it too easy for her to continue like this. But because I haven't always been there for her I am also wondering if by now pulling away again I am making it easier for her to think I am back to my old ways.

But I just told her that I just wanted to respect her wishes that yesterday was my day and today is OM's day (she plans to get a hotel) and that I cannot always be there when she wants me to be there. She got upset and called it passive aggressive. But I am just trying to do what she asked from me.

Any advice?

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Tobias,

So your W wants to have sex with other men. And your not opposed to that? Does that mean that your willing to have an open marriage? It sounds as if you came off way too soft when she talked about having sex with other men. No woman wants a man soft enough to be cool with her sleeping with other people. Unless your going to be doing the same yourself in the MR. Sometimes the things WS asks for don't need to be respected. To me it sounds if W just wants to keep having sex with OM. While dating you as well. Not sure what your boundaries are, but it might be time to come up with some.


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Sorry I'm choosing one issue, but I want to be sure I read it right.

She had a health issue and you focussed on the costs of addressing her medical problem, rather than immediate or best care? And that hurt her feelings?


What do you think now?


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*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
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Originally Posted By: Tobias
So I made some errors by telling a few close friends that I found out... I was so hurt by her cold reaction to me finding out. After I told them she came to me and for the first time in a while we talked for a few hours and fell asleep in the same bed. She mentioned why she went for this and how it felt and how there are many things that wouldn't work between them.

This morning she freaked out when she asked me if I had told anyone. I wanted to be truthful. She has been exhausted but has spend a bit of a time together. I showed her the sex starved marriage book as it seems our libidos never matched up...although we both wanted more sex but it just never clicked the right way.

was it a priority for you?


She said last night that the OM actually helped her appreciate me more and almost make these past few weeks so much better with me.

I have heard more people say this ^^than I ever expected. Esther Perel has a TED talk on this very topic you may wish to watch. It's pretty eye opening. And no, she's not promoting infidelity.


-From the texts I also learned she likes that he is dominant in the bedroom which is something I wish she would have addressed with me.


What she may have said to OM in a text means almost nothing about what she would want from you. Plus it hurts to read. Spare yourself the pain

and of course stop talking about it b/c when Other people are involved they tend to take positions and then your ego gets involved or you have to drop the friendships if they are not in agreement with you.

And Or your w will feel cornered into a divorce b/c otherwise, she was totally wrong and a $lut to have had an A, etc.

last but not least, when couples have real issues and THEN someone has an affair, as lousy and painful as it is, and believe me, I know

it's crucial too avoid only focussing on the A. Don't stop your personal growth, as it's the one upside to this in the short term. The other, possible upside is rebuilding.

See the video I mention, it's pretty eye opening. Couples can get past it, I've seen it.

-


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M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Tread: well she framed it as she did tell me we were separating. She understands I didn't see it that way and she didn't follow steps but she wanted to date (including me) and she feels it would help her reconnect with me as she considers me a catch (mostly due to changes I have made the past month and in her interactions with OM and seeing who is available).

She has expressed that she is polyamorous and honestly I am not that possessive or insecure. What I don't think is a good idea is before we work on our foundation to see other people.

But OM mostly seems to provide friendship and someone that makes her laugh. She feels pressured and trapped and if I would tell her she cannot see him she would move out and date (including if I wanted to do that). I think her seeing consistency in my actions is more important and her being 'home' is important. She isn't quite there to be committed to save the marriage but she changed from I want counseling to help us end this to now saying: I want counseling to see if we can be saved.

Unless she is really playing. She has made a sincere effort and has done a lot of things to make my life easier (doing chores), making comments about what she needs to work on, saying things like what she would like to see changed in the home, giving me compliments, being kinder to me (she said by seeing me as friend/roommate she has gained empathy for me and has acted on that. She enjoyed going on a date (her suggestion) and loved that I asked her questions. She is just afraid it is going to disappear. So by being able to see OM she feels empowered.

Doing a 180 for me seems to have to be to show her the type of husband I can be rather than completely detach. But I have stopped saying ILY (she knows my desire to make it work but has said she isn't 100% there yet... there is years of hurt..) She felt I wasn't into sex (totally not true.. I was insecure about my performance but she has recently said how much she likes it). She feels I don't listen. She feels I don't compliment her and appreciate her. So detaching would be doing in my eyes the exact opposite I need to be doing (although I need to not follow her like a puppy dog).

She went on a date with OM and said she was thinking about me.

25yearsmlc: not quite. I was very worried about her health and brought her there but there was lack of information and the initial insurance bill was 34,000 and it wasn't going to get covered. So I freaked out when I saw the bill.

Also I told her I forgive her for the A. I accept her explanation that she thought she avoided hurting me. She sees that she forgot steps. What I am worried about is rebuilding with her while she also has a shiny new toy and if it makes it easier/harder. But I must have hit the jackpot as OM keeps saying she will come back to me. And I actually feel like I could be friends with him as there are some interesting similarities between us BUT he is also not reliable to hang out with (his work has him work insane hours and he is always busy). So he might make her laugh, he might know how to please her sexually, but he cannot provide a serious relationship. In some ways he is more neglectful than I was.

On Tuesday they might hang out and the plan was to watch a movie. Now if that is all a lie she is a great actress.

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Originally Posted By: Tobias
She has expressed that she is polyamorous...


Tobias,

She'd make a great used car saleswoman. "Don't believe anything she says and only half of what she does." She's got you wrapped around her little finger.

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Originally Posted By: doodler

Tobias,

She'd make a great used car saleswoman. "Don't believe anything she says and only half of what she does." She's got you wrapped around her little finger.



Perhaps. But she has said that before. She just hadn't acted on this until she could no longer hope for a better husband. She said that she was so done with me and just waiting for the right moment to leave until I changed. She got curious. Like she was cold and almost mean at times early on during this past month. But she was also openly depressed.

The polyamory makes it more complicated to heal because that needs to be communicated and negotiated. Honestly, I don't know how serious she is when she says these things as what she wants for the future. Our sex live was bland and non exciting. That is on my insecurity and failure to talk to her about it. But I have also shown a more wilder side when it comes to that. It feels she is also testing me. Remember, I have been fighting in wrong ways (saying mean things, threatening that she wouldn't get anything if we would break up/divorce, it was pure frustration on my part and I haven't really shown that side during the past month...but she is worried I am acting) and she has felt trapped. She had been talking to this guy for months before anything even happened (I know...because she doesn't drive and we work at the same place...when she started hanging out with him is when I noticed). She also wants to do her PhD in another state and has felt I wasn't serious about going with her. She also seems to clearly have felt I got complacent about my career. And truth is I had been worried about how we were doing for years myself. And that consumed my time. Instead of talking to her about it I remained silent.

She hasn't promised that it will work out and in fact has said it probably won't but she has changed what she is committed to doing (from leaving and only considering counseling to help ME cope her leaving to HER also thinking about if it can be saved. I suggested a therapist for today and she immediately said that the one I showed her seemed to only be an intern with little experience...if she is stalling that is possible but she stuck it out with me for years and by her wanting a more experienced therapist that only makes it potentially a better situation.) She had several opportunities to just end it. Her actions validate what she said. But I am not blind. Obviously I am working on trusting her again. But if I don't trust her I ruin every chance we have to make it work. If she is spending more and more time with him than that will be obvious because when she did I got suspicious. She started being slowly more intimate when she saw me make changes and had sex with me before I knew there was an affair. I just got suspicious about that behavior when I found out and asked her (which is one of those impulses I need to control) I have got to also trust my gut in this.

Yes I am not blind. But I am trying to follow the rules as much as possible with also doing the 180s to be a change from what I did in the past. But every time we hung out it has been initiated by her and there have been times when I said I am doing something else. That is when she got curious again. She said it was nice I was asking her questions during our date. She said we never did that. (We did rush into things and our age difference her being 20, me being 30 but HIGHLY inexperienced in terms of what a relationship needs to work and we got into a routine that led to complacency.)

Remember. She had been hurt for years and I have only begun to address some of these problems authentically for a month. And when I discovered the affair it might have been a set back in our healing. I have also been not as solid in my approach because the affair had to be discussed and SHE brings it up a lot. SHE has been very open about it. So that is heavy and not always fun so since she doesn't have many friends to hang out with she is happy to go to a bar with him. He sends her constant dumb gifs and jokes. She says when she is with him he doesn't expect anything from her. And of course she knows I want US to work and she isn't quite there yet to fall back to that lovey-dovey marriage.

Am I completely okay with her seeing him? Not entirely, because I am worried that it will make her not work on it with me...and because he works so much and late hours...he offers kind of a mystery (but it has bugged her that she has to wait hours for him to show up and she said if I was dating him that would be the end of it but as a friend I accept it). But given the flaws I had that I am working on and the fact that I don't want her to feel pressured to make a choice (the begging, pleading and asking about where we stand, the saying ILY etc). If I need to trust only half of her actions...would it be possible that the nice ones are all fake? Maybe. Or that all the "I want to spend time with OM and do something fun" be fake. Or a little of both (probably, because she IS confused). I am not really off in my own little world all the time (my friends have said that, her friends have mentioned it), I have given her more compliments, I am not on my phone when we hang out (in fact she has done that for years and she realized she had begun to do what she blamed me), I have not been this insane crazy guy watching sports and yelling at tv (triggering her dad's emotional and physical abuse for when he did that and got violent), I am suddenly showing an interest in cooking and not giving into me fear and anxiety. She has said things she need to work on (so don't believe that right?) but when she follows up on those things (believe half of her actions) than I cannot help but trust the process. Unless she is acting and IS AWARE of the rules posted on this forum and is manipulating me. I don't think she is. She is no longer in her bedroom with the door closed. She wants to increasingly spend more time. But she also says she cannot go from 0 to 100. And that's wise. Everything that has been happening is discussed in Michele's work.

Finally, she had told OM that we were completely done. She was sick in her stomach when we were in the same house (that was painful to read and of course I was emotional when I told her about feeling that way). He had said it was okay that she would be intimate with me and that she would probably get back with me. He had been very much acting like her friend and doesn't force her to do anything. Now she lied about it when I asked if there was someone else (don't believe her words) but her actions also validated guilt (she was sad, she was depressed, she felt guilty). She had created this evil image of me. But she also slowly acted more intimate and caring towards me. So she also told me that she doesn't just want to leave him hanging because he was there for her before anything physical even happened. She has been very open about what they talk about. She doesn't show me the messages but again it's the actions that show something possible.

One final example before I stop this novel... (sorry I write a lot... but it also helps me process). She had always wanted to get annual passes for a park and on Friday she shared the link so I said let's do it. She then said she doesn't want to rush into that because she is worried I will bring it up in the next fight. And how she doesn't know if right now we should add this. But in the past I did blame her for the things I told her outside of fights I do because I care for her. So I caused hurt which led to resentment/anger. I cannot take that away from her other than through my actions. Right? She also is finally hearing from me that perhaps ADD did play a role (I was anxious often and followed my first impulse...but I denied that it played a role when she asked. She doesn't just automatically now want to believe that when I say that it was my ADD after all..or it might.). I was also worried about not being able to surprise her whereas she wanted to be surprised.

Anyway. Maybe you're right. Maybe you're wrong.

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What's for sure is that I need to be way more patient. I can be patient if I know there is not someone else involved. I make critical errors with the knowledge there is someone else involved.

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Originally Posted By: Tobias
Anyway. Maybe you're right. Maybe you're wrong.


Tobias,

Yes, it's a difficult minefield to navigate. For myself, I know that I shouldn't have believed my wife's spew (i.e., listen, but don't believe it) and I should've put more effort into GAL (along with my sons).

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I was just making some of my old mistakes.

- impulsive reactions. When she was talking about OM. I said it sounds like I am your gay best friend and laughed. She felt it was passive aggressive. I moved beyond just being focused on what I need to do and said how I am also trying not to get hurt again. And it kind of went from there. She was almost immediately explosive and angry and I stayed calm but I should have just let it go. Instead I tried to explain what I said...I even brought up how something she did years ago hurt me and that wasn't the time.

- expecting her to reconnect with me even though she kept telling me "I can see being friends with OM if we got back together", "I think we are in a good place and I am for the first time in a while thinking about that maybe it can be worked out". Instead one of the things she said: I should have known this would happen and that the honeymoon phase from last week would be short lived.

- ignoring that to address problems with us we need a counselor which she was willing to do. Instead, I got greedy and tried to push it. But I also was having a hard time staying calm with her lack of apologizing for what she did. She feels justified and I can understand why she felt that way due to what I did but it still hurts. But truth is if I would have LISTENED to her I would have heard regret and remorse and her just trying to be a good friend to this guy. (although there is this nagging voice in my head that due to his unreliable work schedule and the fact they can only hang out later at night that this is why she isn't with him more...but that is NOT what I need to focus on.)

Later that evening we did hung out, after she said she needed to be alone it was her who reached out with a (harmless topic) text and this morning she gave me a hug but I can see she is putting walls back up. But I take the hug as her either playing with me OR realizing that I am hurt too and I am giving it a sincere effort.

I just need to keep working on myself and my impulsivity is a MAJOR turn off but the OM is mostly causing that. I can have all the patience but I am also worried because she said how the last time she had sex with OM that she didn't think it would be the last time but one of many more to come. So she is trying to not hurt either one of us.

I hope I am not back at square one but I knew this would take time. It was just nice hearing her warm up to me which she hadn't really done in a few years consistently, laughing with her, doing fun things with her, yes I desire her sexually but I haven't really pushed that either although I did compliment her since that is one of the 180s I need to do. But I need to remain calm when I know she is doing something else.

I tell her I forgive her for what happened but I need to not push her apologizing to me and more importantly forgiving ME. I desperately need that and it is making me weak and not confident. And that makes me less attractive.

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A major question I keep having is IF meeting OM in person sealed the deal for my wife or if she really didn't want to start anything new before actually wanting to leave.

Based on our conversations it appears that after we had a major fight she turned a switch (the fight was about how I felt she was bullying me and being mean to me.) I drove off angrily and she went to eat dinner alone. Two days later she said she needs time for herself and is going out. Because I would always contact her and I wanted to respect her space I didn't contact her. Turns out they went to meet in person and according to W she wanted to see that by seeing him all feelings would disappear. Instead she got curious. She said he was doing all the things I seemed to not care for: paying attention to her, asking how she is doing. During a recent trip she thought I didn't miss her because I didn't ask how she was doing. In fact I was missing her but for some reason I just never told her that. Before the trip she wanted to have sex and I was tired and worried it wouldn't "function" and I didn't want her to be upset about that when I would be gone for over half a week. I wonder if that moment sealed the deal for her.

When she left a week later at 11pm and didn't come back until 3am right when we needed to go somewhere at 7am and then drive for a concert it turns out she went to a hotel with him. She got colder towards me and didn't want to do anything with me. When she encouraged me to go on a trip it turns out she invited him over and they had sex in our home. She wanted him to come over other days but his schedule wouldn't allow it. She described me returning as making her sick in her stomach (text I saw between them). Last week she said for the first time thinking about the future with me isn't making her sick anymore...but she isn't quite there. She is worried I fall back (and that's why my behavior yesterday was so dumb when I should have just been happy with the progress...but reading the threads on here about how to do things different when there is cheating involved I got conflicted). But when I got back from the second trip she was acting very depressed and emotional and needed my affection. We had sex the day before I found out. She said it shows how she was getting back to thinking about me...but yesterday she also said she feels guilty towards OM how she dragged him into this and that how the last time they had sex she didn't feel it would be the last time and how there would be many more to come. Between saying those things she also mentions seeing a possible future with me and seeing him just as a friend. So it's all so conflicting...That's when I lost my cool and patience. Healing after an affair is already tough...but when it's still ongoing...at least emotionally?

After I found out we have been closer than maybe ever...but obviously I can get impatient (and that is where everyone on here talks about don't call victory too soon). But she keeps telling me that we had problems long before she had an affair (that she doesn't consider an affair because she said she wanted to separate). I acknowledge that and I forgive her for what happened but that it's the current phase that is painful and challenging for me. That I am trusting her. Yet I know she isn't completely over this OM. Nothing sexual has happened (mostly because his schedule I think...) since I found out.

So maybe she is right and she should move out while we figure things out. But it makes me worried I would even have less of a chance of controlling my emotions (and perhaps that is why she does need to move out so I can work on that). But she has liked seeing me lately she said. It makes her feel like there is a future possible. But I know I cannot believe everything she says, yet her actions do back some of that up.

It almost seems that she has more of a struggle forgiving herself for how she made me feel. And she feels guilty towards OM. That will take time. Only a week ago she was disgusted by the feeling of being with me. She CLAIMS she is over it but maybe she has never stopped feeling that way. God, we need a counselor...

My plan is to get back to my approach of GAL and not spending time with her whenever she wants to. To give her space. She did say she feels she has to explain what she does and says with OM and that I seem focused on her phone buzzing with texts. And that she hasn't had time for herself to rest and focused on making sure me and OM are okay. Until she says something more concrete about what she did wrong it's not my place to get her to that point. I can only show her my changes and focus on what I need to do.

(But I cannot stop thinking that I kind wish OM would just stop reaching out to her. My W. doesn't make friends easily and so I do feel guilty about wanting her to stop spending so much time with him. And of course she sees through me since I say it's okay that she spends time with him. And as friends I am totally fine with it...but anything potentially sexual? Not until we have worked on us...if polyamory is a possibility that is something for later...)

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So I guess what all my posts are saying is that I say I am detaching but I am actually not. I also feel guilty about what I didn't provide her during our decade together even though I always thought I put her first.

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Originally Posted By: Tobias
So I guess what all my posts are saying is that I say I am detaching but I am actually not. I also feel guilty about what I didn't provide her during our decade together even though I always thought I put her first.


Hello Tobias,

You are absolutely right, you are not detaching.

Your wife is cake eating. She is getting her needs met with OM while keeping you around as plan B in case things don't work out with OM. She will continue to do this as long as you allow it. You won't be able to change her behavior, but you can certainly change yours.

The best advice I can give you is to call a Divorce Busting Coach today. Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best advice on how to save your marriage and get things moving in a more positive direction. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004

Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004


A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.

Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
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Ever since we met she has dealt with depression and suicidal thoughts. She had some medication but after two years when we left the state we met in she stopped having access to them. My flaws have probably escalated conflicts because it always came out of it nothing and so many times she said she just wanted to kill herself and that she is no good and how she shouldn't be alive. I told her she needs to see someone but never pushed it. It seemed we would always heal. But of course because my flaws she kept perhaps being dragged into this state. Ever since she became more serious with OM she has become even more erratic and she has become even more scared when I even seem to fall back into old patterns which as I wrote happened the other day.

But she IS depressed and her behavior is erratic. I sort of joked about that the other day without using the term erratic but she got so angry. But now she is just sitting there in tears not knowing what to do. I asked her what she loves about herself and she said she couldn't even think of anything.

So my HUGE mistake the other day was letting on that I was hurt by her actions even though we were spending a bit more time together. And of course the way she describes OM is text book what happens when you're depressed. I don't know if the depression was because of me but like I said it has been there from the start. Now maybe it became more heinous to her because she feels trapped and isolated.

I no longer want to work on our relationship before she addresses her depression with some serious help. If it means when she does that she realizes we should have never become serious so be it. I want her to feel better.

She is exhausted. She was going to hang out with OM based on what she said on Sunday which I guess made me a little weak and I addressed erratic behavior because she was still feeling sick. But I was shocked when she just went to her bedroom (I hate saying that, but I have to treat it as if we are not married) and was just sad.

I know with depression people sometimes need to hit rock bottom but I am worried that if she moves out she is going to do something crazy. I know I cannot stop that. But it seems she needs help.

This morning I went to her bedroom and I hugged her before she woke up. She said what's up in a friendly tone and I said I just wanted to hug her before I started the day because it seems she is in a dark place (she said uh huh) and that she is good enough and that I hope she doesn't let the darkness destroy the beautiful person inside of her. She said okay almost relieved.

So yeah what I have is a jackpot of marital challenges: my skills were lacking, she deals with depression (unmedicated and undiagnosed right now) and it got so far that she sought out first an EA and later a PA. I was following the rules and we got a little closer I was happy to take it slow but then I uncovered the affair, we became closer at a more rapid rate and of course she kept making erratic choices which instead of me realizing wait maybe she IS depressed (something I felt from the start a month ago) based on her actions and instead I passive aggressively made a comment. Now she moved from opening up to closing down again. But my plan is to GAL, detach but also do random acts of kindness to help the depression. I am doing that as her friend. It hurts. But there is no second marriage with her unless the depression is addressed. It will only collapse again down the road because marriage is never perfect.

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Well I have nothing left but to detach and GAL... she basically said she doesn't know what she wants and it is obvious she is forcing herself to feel which lead to a rollercoaster of emotions and the more I am waiting to hug her the more harm it causes.

She seems to focus a lot on me discovering the PA and claims she was on the way out (I suspect that is a lie but her actions did sort of start getting closer to me).

She also was upset I told some friends when I was hurting and I overreacted on her lack of remorse... it's those damn impulses I cannot control. But even though those friends have said they love us both she thinks I am talking bad about her (whereas the opposite is true....I blame myself)

She is upset I am upset about the PA because she claims it didn't influence her decision to leave (I am going to assume that's a lie but I can only control myself)

She is also upset I focus on her saying she wants to kill herself and mentions being depressed because it is caused all by me and has been pretty much the entire decade (she says she felt trapped, despite that we moved to two different states but okay I cannot believe what she says)

It is too volatile for me to get too close. Because after she was angry at me she then was in tears and said she is trying hard to feel back in love because it would be so much easier. I told her that while I want that goal that I have decided that it is not fixed overnight and that I am working on things on my end because I need those skills for myself and that she needs to figure out what it is she wants and that that probably involves her making a decision about what she wants out of a M. That if she wants to work on it I am available but until she decides whether or not to work on it and trust that I am not acting a new part but am genuinely trying to make an effort and that changing yourself takes time and that I have weak moments. I ended it by saying that I am giving it at least a year to see noticeable improvements. She seemed shocked it would take that long so I clarified that it doesn't mean it's bad for a year but that we cannot be expected to be on lovey dovey we trust each other and we have no challenges. That likely a few months before we give it a real effort and after six months we would see some positive consistent behavior.

She also asked about what I tell people and I said I decided that I cannot involve them and I have only done it sparingly with a few people but I am going to stop it (and make it even harder on myself but I cannot involve people we both know). I told her she is amazing and I actually defend her when they insinuate something bad. She was sad and said I am not amazing. I am selfish and an [censored]. I told her I cannot make her take those words away but that I know that isn't true. That only she can work on that.

It just [censored] that we work at the same place and that she doesn't drive. And my work is a bit slow right now so my mind easily wanders. I am going to have to trick myself to not let that happen.

And then right before going to bed she wants to hug me and cries.

I am torn what to see that as: sadness she isn't in love or sadness that she wants out but cannot get herself to do it. But one thing is for sure: when she came back last week I should have been less eager. But how do I turn down my W when she always felt I did that. So maybe I shouldn't turn her down but definitely not suggest anything but let her take the lead. It's going to take a hell of a control effort. Especially with her being so sad.

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And this morning everything was even more confusing. I kind of did my thing and suddenly she came to my bedroom talking about things. And after she took a shower she grabbed her breakfast shake (if there is a movie about us it is going to need a sponsor for the shake!) and coffee and just sat talking to me for twenty minutes. Just like last week it was about things she wanted to get me.

In the car she said another guy reached out to her but she isn't attracted to him and she really only wants friends. She said I don't know why I am telling you. I said maybe because you wanted me to know someone else reached out.

And then after asking me to just cancel the weekend plans later at night she said oh you contacted them to see if they can cancel it...well if they cannot cancel we can just go.

So her words were angry her behavior initially was angry and later compassionate and almost wanting my presence. I now know I need to not take that as anything more at this moment. I just need to accept that she truly IS confused and if I push or reach out she forces herself to not want near me. If I keep my distance she pursues me and becomes curious.

I am re reading the steps from the DR book... and I am going to have to try harder at focusing on my work.I have been able to work but it's also rough...

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I noticed a pattern when my W would interact with me was sometimes when she needed something (a foot rub, food, etc) so I know she is in a meeting all day and she was responsible for ordering food. She reached out to me suddenly asking if I could pick the food up since she didn't plan it well. (we work at the same place). I told her a small lie that I am finally writing and so that I cannot really leave. She wrote "okay." "ttyl" and so much shorter messages than normal. So I said.. "calm down. You cannot be mad at me for wanting to do my work. I wish you would respect me more." And then she freaked out and wrote in all caps that she is not upset and how she doesn't like how judgmental I am. There is just a lot of unresolved anger that she has towards me.

Did I react too strongly? I just feel that if she tells me to stop doing all these nice things for her but that when I don't do them she reacts short or in the case of being hungry she says she will just go to bed hungry. And of course then I give in and say I will go grab something. I just feel so guilty and bad when I don't do these things. But I am in a desperate pursuer mode and she is retreating. And any time she comes closer and I connect with her she immediately retreats. I just don't know how to stop that pattern.

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Originally Posted By: Tobias

Did I react too strongly? I just feel that if she tells me to stop doing all these nice things for her but that when I don't do them she reacts short or in the case of being hungry she says she will just go to bed hungry. And of course then I give in and say I will go grab something. I just feel so guilty and bad when I don't do these things. But I am in a desperate pursuer mode and she is retreating. And any time she comes closer and I connect with her she immediately retreats. I just don't know how to stop that pattern.


Hi Tobias,

The short answer is yes, your reaction was too strong. She reached out for your help. You said no. Her response was fine with ok, ttyl. You should have left it at that. She asked, you answered. Done. No additional response from you would have been best.

Her asking you to do things for her is more of her cake eating. You are so smart to recognize that you are in a desperate pursuer mode. Loose the guilt by truly detaching. A DB coach will help you stop this pattern.

Cristy

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A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.

Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
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I am hesitant in responding b/c of what you have said about her depression and thoughts of suicide. I do not agree that the current situation is all your fault. Neither is every little bump in daily interactions are caused from you not saying or doing just the right thing.

From reading your thread, it pictures a man who is blaming himself for the past and striving to make improvements. He has a younger W who is in a PA with OM, and listens to her talk about the OM. He seems so disparate to be in his W's life that he is willing to share her with another man. IMHO, that is a formula for a very unhealthy MR.

If your W is showing erratic behavior and mentions suicide, she should be under the care of a doctor/therapy. Does she show erratic behavior only when she is responding to something you've said or done? Does she show erratic behavior with others, at work, etc? What about her family? Are they close and involved in her life?

I'm not sure if you are a meek and gentle man who compromises his boundaries.........or if you have a mistaken concept about DBing. Your W spends time with you on certain days and time with the OM on certain days. It's almost like a visitation schedule between you and the OM. Do you believe your W will be genuinely attracted to a H who is willing to share her with another man b/c he fears losing her? That must be a killer on your dignity.

Your W is bringing dispect into the sacred union of your marriage. You appear to believe the statements she makes about being with OM causes her to appreciate you more, and she's attracted to you, and how you need to be fair to him. Her values and standards and her sexually morality seems out of whack. Affairs can do that to people. It is not irreversible, if she has someone who is like a lighthouse, shining out the light from a place of stability. IMHO, you are trying to adapt to a lifestyle that is not what you really want, b/c in your heart you know she does not respect you if you share her with another man.

I encourage you to stand by your core values. Do not compromise your integrity.
Don't confuse your aim in changing for the better.......with becoming a puppet. Sometimes when a person sees his mistakes and wants to make up for the past, he takes responsibility for all of his faults.....and the faults of his spouse. He blames himself for the inappropriate behavior of his spouse.....to the point of rationalizing her actions. In his eagerness to show his changes, he begins trying to appease and accommodate his W's demands to the extent his role becomes subservient . Is this the man you really want to become?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Wow. sandi2 what a thoughtful and kind response. I was afraid what it was you would say. But you hit a lot of it on the head.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I am hesitant in responding b/c of what you have said about her depression and thoughts of suicide. I do not agree that the current situation is all your fault. Neither is every little bump in daily interactions are caused from you not saying or doing just the right thing.


Thanks.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
From reading your thread, it pictures a man who is blaming himself for the past and striving to make improvements. He has a younger W who is in a PA with OM, and listens to her talk about the OM. He seems so disparate to be in his W's life that he is willing to share her with another man. IMHO, that is a formula for a very unhealthy MR.


Yes. Honestly, I think if we are in a good situation and she has those urges and needs I can discuss that. I was hoping that by not forcing her NC she would recognize it was challenging to me and not pursue OM. But detaching and GAL seem so risky especially when there is someone else that delivers some of what she needs (emotional support, sex - last time two or three weeks ago with him). Like, I know I need to stop pursuing her but it just nags at me because that is exactly what I have been doing all these years. And then when she does want to hang out I now constantly wonder is she doing this just to get me off her back and then she can go back to OM. That is an unhealthy thought and I cannot control HER actions but it makes leaving the house seem like a risky choice. Especially when one text message showed when I was getting her food she was just chatting away with him and that was a day before I found out what was happening.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
If your W is showing erratic behavior and mentions suicide, she should be under the care of a doctor/therapy. Does she show erratic behavior only when she is responding to something you've said or done? Does she show erratic behavior with others, at work, etc? What about her family? Are they close and involved in her life?


No. But I have told her before that I feel she is a different person around me. She is very pleasant and extrovert around others but this exhausts her and so I always feel I only got her bad elements. This led to fights and of course she wanted to be vulnerable around me. I didn't get that. So instead of comforting her and LISTENING I tried to fix things and I distanced myself. She pursued me but I was defensive. And then when she got defensive I started pursuing her. Then she distanced herself...repeat cycle.

this article was helpful for me: https://www.elephantjournal.com/2014/08/a-married-mans-secret-tears-grace-cooley-steve-horsmon/

Going back to your specific question: her erratic behavior comes from when she tried to balance me and OM. I mean leaving late at night before I found out and then after I found out realizing she didn't create the right boundaries. Knowing I love her, knowing she wants to fall back in love with me but doesn't know how. (and of course there is an evil voice in my head saying...don't believe anything she says). So no, she is not that way around everyone else AFAIK. But I can see pain and struggle in her eyes and face. So I think it's genuine. And she has felt miserable for so long and kept trying and I made mistakes. Hence why I blame myself so much. But yes her pain and anger and sadness and depression come when I deviate from just laughing with her and having fun.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I'm not sure if you are a meek and gentle man who compromises his boundaries.........or if you have a mistaken concept about DBing. Your W spends time with you on certain days and time with the OM on certain days. It's almost like a visitation schedule between you and the OM. Do you believe your W will be genuinely attracted to a H who is willing to share her with another man b/c he fears losing her? That must be a killer on your dignity.


It is. But I also understand polyamory and I also understand needing to feel not controlled. Even though I didn't try to control her I can see I did. But just to clarify she has maybe seen him five times in total and they had sex twice. I know that's true since the messages indicate when I was gone they only met once and since she doesn't drive and we work at the same place that she doesn't see him a lot. They do text a lot but he works weird hours and I did see their messages are mostly about jokes. It wasn't just sexting although it took up a greater role lately. But I haven't seen any messages since early last week.

As to being meek. I know she was sexually assaulted by an earlier BF. We are both passionate about sexual assault as a problem. I have always felt scared to be dominant or to talk about sex because I didn't want to be one of those men. And of course turns out she kind of wants me to be that person every now and then.

I tried to not make decisions alone but when we did things together and I didn't do something right she got angry. I got defensive and withdrew. She said she wasn't angry and I just give up. I got hurt. We fought. Repeat cycle. So yes she kind of wants a strong man who she can feel safe around. (and OM has guns and is kind of a good old boy but she does miss the ability to have good intellectual conversations and the fact his work hours make him unreliable for emotional support...but of course every text is a piece of magic I think. compared to her H who is sad and wants to be back with her. That makes her sad... etc. So I know I need to be strong and confident but I hate seeing her hurt.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Your W is bringing dispect into the sacred union of your marriage. You appear to believe the statements she makes about being with OM causes her to appreciate you more, and she's attracted to you, and how you need to be fair to him. Her values and standards and her sexually morality seems out of whack. Affairs can do that to people. It is not irreversible, if she has someone who is like a lighthouse, shining out the light from a place of stability. IMHO, you are trying to adapt to a lifestyle that is not what you really want, b/c in your heart you know she does not respect you if you share her with another man.


I have been trying to be stable and she got confused and said wait why he is changing now. But then I found out and I told two close friends and that hurt her. But ever since I have been trying to be stable while also being incredibly worried and struggling with my self esteem. I know I need to stop doing that.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I encourage you to stand by your core values. Do not compromise your integrity.
Don't confuse your aim in changing for the better.......with becoming a puppet. Sometimes when a person sees his mistakes and wants to make up for the past, he takes responsibility for all of his faults.....and the faults of his spouse. He blames himself for the inappropriate behavior of his spouse.....to the point of rationalizing her actions. In his eagerness to show his changes, he begins trying to appease and accommodate his W's demands to the extent his role becomes subservient . Is this the man you really want to become?


I know. And when I tell her she is perfect she says no I am not. I have made mistakes. I have been angry. I have lost respect for you. I have things I need to work on. I am selfish. I am an [censored].

No I don't want to become that man. But see that is the messed up thing. For years I felt I was having to do those things...but she saw everything we did as me doing what I wanted.

==

Update. So I confronted her about my fear that her texting makes it very hard for me to give her space. That I want to trust her and that I have noticed she is trying but that I am constantly worried about her just waiting to get out and is just not being genuine. I said I know I have things I need to work on but there is someone else involved and that is the challenge to me. Especially when giving you space means doing exactly what you think I have been doing all these years: ignore you and force you to find emotional support from friends.

It led to a shouting match and I told her I cannot live under the same roof and be married until you recognize how hurt this PA has made me. I will help you move out but I just cannot. It feels like you have zero regards for my feelings and care more about his feelings and how he feels about it. That knowing that this happened makes it harder for me to be strong and confident which makes it even more likely she is done with me.

After that she came over to my bedroom and said something that I wish she would have said earlier and maybe she did but it was one of those things where I may just not be listening. It is also semantics. To me wanting to save a marriage doesn't mean the only goal is that we are happily married. She only wants to see if we can save the marriage. But she doesn't want to commit to saving the marriage.

And yes, she is scared. She feels I have been emotionally abusive. I feel she has been emotionally abusive... (and I hate myself when I recognize that despite my intentions I was emotionally abusive) and I haven't shown this side and when I did it was one or two days before I would resort back. She said I can see you are really changing because in the past you had zero desire to just relax and calm down and breathe in and out. I told her that I needed to do that because my energy was just driving me insane. She said she checked out because she felt she was number 3 in my life: my work, wanting to watch sports (my escape from misery...as I teach about inequality and problems in our society) and then her. I told her that yes I made those errors where I turned you down and didn't realize I was doing it and then later wondered why we just seemed to not be right because in my mind she was the center of my world. I even agreed to buying a house. I focused on retirement. And in the meantime I told her no when she wanted to do fun things. She tried to address things I said but I didn't follow through (for different reasons... sometimes I was anxious to do something wrong because she would immediately snap at me which kills my confidence which then becomes a turn off for her).

She said she tried so many times and any time it felt better it would get bad. (Ironically, I felt the same way). I told her it's because I didn't understand a lot of things. I was so worried of losing you that I just couldn't think straight and acted out of desperation a lot of times. But that we never communicated fairly and openly about these things. She agreed and said she is really trying. And that it is just painful to think of the past. But that she wants to feel in love again. That if we would meet right now she would be madly in love but that she just cannot get over the past. That we need to meet a counselor to work on conflict resolution and communication skills (she NEVER said that lately). She says she just cannot commit to saving the marriage because she just doesn't know if she is ready for that. And that she was so DONE. She had been ready to leave for several years and I never seemed to take it seriously. That it just got very confusing when suddenly I DID seem to act differently. I told her this marriage is over. We both messed up and it just further escalated despite what we wanted. We need a new marriage. I don't ever want you to feel anything less than #1 and I want you to know how special and amazing you are. I told everyone those things except her. I thought she knew.

And just now she sent me a message saying go ahead and schedule the counselor.

(sorry that was long)

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I haven't written here since last Friday. But we had our first counseling session last night and W was really dreading it but I told her this won't be about whose to blame but rather about addressing the system rather than the symptoms and that it won't be a yelling match. I like the lady she seems very in tune with what we want (not seeing marriage or divorce as the automatic outcome) but encouraged my W and myself to also do individual sessions to address resentment. W. actually said she has stopped bringing up "well in the past you didn't do x,y,z or weren't excited" and I unfortunately didn't even notice that (probably because I saw focusing on those statements as a threat for us to start a conflict and for me to feel pain and hurt. She said she still thinks and feels these things but I told her I appreciate her taking this first huge step to not say it. And I was jumping for joy internally because I do think one of the biggest obstacles that prevent us from going forward is her resentment towards me.

W was encouraged to not continue talking to OM but in the car W said "just to be honest, I am not quite there yet" she also doesn't know how to talk about the MC to OM. I hope in the next couple of sessions W will reflect deeper and perhaps decide to stop talking to him is the best way for us to reconnect. But she also doesn't talk about him as being someone she can be in a relationship with. And I decided to just nod and say well he is being a friend to you. I think I need to recognize signs of progress and signs of her behavioral changes towards me as huge steps even though I wish time would move faster. But on the other hand, I DO need changes and I am not quite there with being consistent in several things.

W did mention depression in her in take which I was worried she would leave off. But expressed reluctancy to be medicated. MC said holistic approaches could work and suggested a mood chart which I think will be extremely helpful. Later I told her that if she doesn't want to give me an entire narrative and needing to comfort me if her mood leads her to want to be alone to perhaps initiate some words that indicate to me whatever she needs (e.g., need to be alone, need you in the same room but quiet etc.).

W. expressed to MC that she isn't willing to say save our marriage at all cost but that she is open to the idea of it being able to be saved. This to me was huge and unless she is with me to delay this process because living on her own is too expensive and complicated which would mean that my gut feeling is wrong and basically that I have been living with a stranger for a decade. I think the MC asking questions and me nodding and affirming my flaws were already huge for my W to feel much better about a future. In fact in the car she said... that I am not like her dad and that when she mentioned it in the past that there were elements (e.g., yelling at the tv during sports). I told the MC that I always dismissed her referencing her dad to me as non sense because I wasn't her dad and I wasn't abusive. But that I now recognize that I in fact by dismissing it and continuing that behavior that in many ways I was like her dad and decided I need to change that. MC said that was huge. And I like that W in car ride home kind of defended me.

We have our next appt next Wednesday and so we shall see but I am very hopeful. Not that it will be easy. MC suggested cognitive behavioral therapy where basically a bad memory needs to be replaced with 12 or so positive thoughts. And this will of course highlight all the things that are problematic and tough between us so it will be essential for me to not pressure her and to ONLY display signs of positive emotions regardless of my own fears, pain and insecurities. But I will discuss that with MC if we end up having individual sessions as well.

My W is also very positive about me in public towards others (I don't think she ever stopped doing it although at times she would show irritation towards me). She has encouraged me to befriend one of her coworkers' husbands which is a confusing step if she really was done with me. Her coworkers know very little about us and in fact have an extremely positive view of me it seems. So having me enter what is potentially an explosive situation if they ever find out what happened is a big risk on her part. Either she likes the risk, or thinks she can control it OR she simply desires to remain married but doesn't necessarily know how to do that and how to feel like that.

W also expressed reluctance to go on a trip back to another state. I booked it a month or so ago for her to go alone. So I said that if she doesn't feel like going she doesn't have to. It was HER suggestion that since I hadn't gone to the state where she wants to do her PhD that maybe we could meet there and she would still make the original trip but cut it short after a few days. She said it surprised her she was excited about the idea of us going there (but a day later said she doesn't yet see it as a romantic trip). I decided to go because a) I have always focused on cost of trips as reason not to go (ironically she is now worried it is expensive); b) she feels I am not supportive of her goals and c) I didn't book it immediately after she mentioned it but not only did she repeat that desire the next morning, she also messaged me several times to say she looked into options.

While I am adopting several things of the LRT I am not fully committed to it because I don't think we are at that stage. She IS still wanting to spend time and talk and she IS still living under the same roof. She HAS continued to show me affection in ways when I didn't ask for it. And she has expressed that she is a monster for the way she treated me. (and yesterday she jokingly referenced to OM as cheating and earlier she always said I am sorry it hurt you but we were separated and so nothing was wrong about it).

Since we booked the MC she has stopped referencing to moving out, stopped saying she will miss one of the cats, stopped saying she will miss me. Has she stopped THINKING and PLANNING it? Not sure. But other than the fact that we have problems we have been getting along maybe better than ever. A lot of that is because of changes I made but she has responded to those changes. A few weak moments from both of us but nothing major. Most importantly, we are working more and more like a team on several things like cleaning and cooking.

To be continued (I am sure... maybe negative...maybe positive...maybe both...)

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Originally Posted By: sandi2
I'm not sure if you are a meek and gentle man who compromises his boundaries.........or if you have a mistaken concept about DBing. Your W spends time with you on certain days and time with the OM on certain days. It's almost like a visitation schedule between you and the OM. Do you believe your W will be genuinely attracted to a H who is willing to share her with another man b/c he fears losing her? That must be a killer on your dignity.


It is. But I also understand polyamory and I also understand needing to feel not controlled. Even though I didn't try to control her I can see I did. But just to clarify she has maybe seen him five times in total and they had sex twice. I know that's true since the messages indicate when I was gone they only met once and since she doesn't drive and we work at the same place that she doesn't see him a lot. They do text a lot but he works weird hours and I did see their messages are mostly about jokes. It wasn't just sexting although it took up a greater role lately. But I haven't seen any messages since early last w.


These are just my thoughts. I have seen the subject of "control" brought into almost every initial thread of newcomers. Some H's are guilty of trying to control his W. Perhaps they confuse leadership and headship of their family unit, to mean controlling. Traditionally, the H is the protector, provider, and leader over his family. Along with that position comes a tremendous amount of responsibility. I can see how the man would need to feel in control, when facing this grave responsibility.

Some H's who are shell shocked when they arrive to the board, have difficulty implementing the information they receive, and maintain a sense of balance. In other words, he decides EVERYTHING has resulted from him being controlling. In truth, that's not always the case. But then that H will be so concerned about not being blamed as controlling, that he becomes extremely passive. And if he was guilty of controlling, he has exchanged one bad trait for another one that's just as unattractive. So, know yourself and see the truth from a balanced viewpoint. Do not resort to supplication to win the heart of your W. Not faulse pride, but a show of self respect is crucial for the H who wears your shoes.

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I was hoping that by not forcing her NC she would recognize it was challenging to me and not pursue OM. But detaching and GAL seem so risky especially when there is someone else that delivers some of what she needs (emotional support, sex - last time two or three weeks ago with him). Like, I know I need to stop pursuing her but it just nags at me because that is exactly what I have been doing all these years. And then when she does want to hang out I now constantly wonder is she doing this just to get me off her back and then she can go back to OM. That is an unhealthy thought and I cannot control HER actions but it makes leaving the house seem like a risky choice. Especially when one text message showed when I was getting her food she was just chatting away with him and that was a day before I found out what was happening.


I don't know how to convince you that your W probably does not have the same mindset as she had the day you M her.........unless, she veiled her true self from the beginning. Therefore, the response she may have had in the initial years of the MR, will not necessarily be her current response..........b/c her mindset has turned away from who she was... and has now become foreign.

I understand how you see a risk and can fear bad results. Would I be wrong to suggest most of the fear is due to how you feel uncomfortable in acquiring new attitudes & behavior that reflect male confidence that stands on your values and principles..........and therfore, you see less risk in adapting to a more comfortable approach, howbeit, with a weaker and lesser desired option?

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And I decided to just nod and say well he is being a friend to you.


Take this as a warning. Do not paint a sweet picture of OM's relationship with your W. She is a M woman and he is a predator. If he was a man of honor, he would immediately sever this so-called "friendship". However, infidelity has no honor! You need to refer to the affair by the correct name. Don't try to give it a cleaner name or description. They have committed adultery. She continues to give him access, while she plays her mind games with her H. The OM is not a friend to the union of holy matrimony. Do not be the counselor for your W's indiscretation. Do not comfort her feelings for another man. It lowers the chance of admiration and attraction for her H.

Identify your enemy, and never trust it, nor compromise with it. Do not allow it to visit your camp, and spread propaganda. Never speak favorably of the enemy to your troops, for this causes confusion and division of loyalty. You must not have comradery with what would greedily devour everything you hold dear to your heart. If you give leeway and/or adapt to the appetite of your enemy.....that which you cherish will inevitibility decay and collapse. Never underestimate its power to enslave and destroy. Understand? When the enemy invades, you either advance or retreat to higher ground..........but never surrender to the enemy!


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Tobias Offline OP
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I think my fear is mostly that whenever I am firm she showed anger and whenever I retreat she showed concern.

But I know I need to stop validating OM and what role he plays. You are right in saying he should have retreated. And I am trying to figure out if he tried to and she wouldn't let him or other way around. Especially since he is still living with his ex-girlfriend who cheated on him. (in fact she is living rent free apparently.)

My other fear is not knowing for 100% if she is being genuine. So we are going through counseling, we are both acknowledging flaws, but is she really interested in making it work? If so, then why the reluctance to stop talking to OM?

That her mindset is different from the day we met is something I realized a month and a half ago. But with that comes the fear as to what is the point of trying to fix it if she isn't yet willing to stop talking to him. And maybe she has stopped talking after the counselor. Maybe her saying she wasn't ready to do that made her feel sad and guilty and she is now in inner turmoil. So by giving her space and letting her work through things I hope she comes to the realization what needs to happen. Maybe I need to wait until at least the second counseling session next Wednesday.

Her recognizing that yesterday when she was about to be late for an appointment and her blaming me for that and me resisting the urge to fight and confront her about that but simply saying "that's not very nice" led her to apologize later at night and saying to me how she fell into old habits and how she took me for granted during that moment. Maybe that made her realize she needs to stop talking to OM or maybe she brought it up and he said something. Or maybe she doesn't know who she wants to focus on.

And all of that is further complicated by the fact how we both haven't slept well and how the weather is giving her major migraines. And how because of OM's hours he doesn't usually talk to her until midnight or 1am and him telling her she needs to go to sleep. All of this is happening at the same time when she has this inner turmoil about not being in love anymore, that she tried for a decade and now suddenly I seem to be finally getting it.

Do I need to be careful? Absolutely. But do I also need to give her some space to figure things out especially since we ARE going to MC? Probably.

Now do I need to stop validating OM? Yes, I have been way too positive about it. But I also just don't know to say how I feel about it without it getting to a fight....

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I think my fear is mostly that whenever I am firm she showed anger and whenever I retreat she showed concern.


I am curious about your personality type. Can you describe how you projected firmness to her?

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My other fear is not knowing for 100% if she is being genuine. So we are going through counseling, we are both acknowledging flaws, but is she really interested in making it work? If so, then why the reluctance to stop talking to OM?


Many WW's want the best of both worlds. She wants to keep her H as her BFF, plus she wants to keep her OM. She gets the benefits of being in a M to you.......and she gets the thrill of an affair on the side. Currently, it appears she is not ready to end the affair. If you google affair addiction, it can explain it much better. When your W has not had contact with OM in a day or so.........she may get cranky, or other negative symptoms. On the way home from the counselor, she probably had the desire to talk to the OM, even then. She gets a "high" from contacting the OM, and that is why she is reluctant to stop.

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But with that comes the fear as to what is the point of trying to fix it if she isn't yet willing to stop talking to him.


Well, if she was committed to working on the MR, and with that commitment she stopped the affair in its tracks..........the MC would certainly be more effective. Currently, your W may not be ready to get a divorce, but neither is wanting to end her A. The M can be saved, but it may mean that you have to emotionally let her go.

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And all of that is further complicated by the fact how we both haven't slept well and how the weather is giving her major migraines. And how because of OM's hours he doesn't usually talk to her until midnight or 1am and him telling her she needs to go to sleep. All of this is happening at the same time when she has this inner turmoil about not being in love anymore, that she tried for a decade and now suddenly I seem to be finally getting it.


Is she talking to OM as she is lying in bed with you? Just wondered how you knew what he was saying to her.

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I also just don't know to say how I feel about it without it getting to a fight....


We can work with you on what to say and do. For now, I think it is extremely important that you get out of the house and find things to do that you enjoy. Get a life without her involvement. Give her space from you........and try not to look heart broken as you do it. Take care of yourself, and let her take care of herself. Do not try to rescue her.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Tobias Offline OP
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sandi2: I probably am not firm but essentially I told her that if she continues to talk to him that she isn't giving saving the M a full chance. She said she isn't going to distance herself from the one person she knows here.

But I realized finally the true value of what I have read here so often: don't snoop. When I gave her space and privacy she did all of this. Now when I give her privacy I worry she is continuing it. I didn't know for sure what was going on until I started looking for answers. And what I found out devastated me. When I knew her best friend (a counselor) also knew about it and basically seemed to say that if she has set up her boundaries that she is free to do whatever she wants. That made me very upset as I trusted that person. On friday she spoke on the phone to that person and when I walked to the kitchen to grab some water I heard her talk about us and I lost it. I was basically looking for any confirmation she couldn't be trusted and of course with that approach I will only find confirmation.

So yes, I need to stop trying to push her.

The thing is her actions have been more positive when she realized just how devastated I was to find out about OM and about my inner turmoil between giving her space and not being sure what she is doing what that space. Yesterday when I was so worried I had undone all the positives she actually comforted me and said we are making great progress but that she hasn't had a whole lot of time to herself. She does have a ton of appointments and people she has to see (and as an introvert she DEFINITELY needs alone time after that...in the past I couldn't really handle that but now that I am aware of it...I shouldn't need to question what she is doing with that alone time). She texted later that she is sorry things got so heated and that it is probably because we were hungry on Friday night and instead of eating first she spoke on the phone for three-four hours...with a brief interruption by me and how we both exhausted. When she came home she said we are making great progress but we have to take baby steps. Her actions confirmed those words.

But. There are two options: either she is deceitful and if that is the case why waste my time trying to find evidence for that. Or she is in a lot of inner turmoil herself and by not giving her space I ruin every chance she feels safe around me. I know I keep saying I need to do that but I need to find ways to silence those devil voices in my head. So yes, getting out of the home, focusing on myself is important but in doing so I need to actually do something or else those voices come in.

I will bring this up to our second counseling session. This whole incident opened up demons from my past (I had zero friends, was extremely bullied, never trusted people could like me let alone the idea that I would ever be able to date a woman--> my W came along and this past decade I finally got really over some of those insecurities so when she cheated on me and lied about it I was transferred back to that little teenage boy). I told W that a lot of that is on me and how it is not her responsibility to always account for what she is doing but that progress isn't linear..sometimes unfortunately after a step forward there are set backs.

She also said she was dreading the weekend...because the past weekends things have gotten emotional. First I uncovered the affair, then the next weekend she saw him (for the most recent time), the week after she felt sick and depressed and it was when we made the counseling appointment after I told her that I want to trust her but that I am very worried about what she does with that. Then this weekend the plan on Friday was because it was raining to watch some Netflix and order pizza. When she told me she needed to call her friend I was initially okay but I started talking myself on the ledge.

So my goal this week is to be aware and extra conscious about HER fears and worries about the weekend because I noticed she seemed anxious and I saw it as deceit and dishonesty rather than a legitimate worry on her part.

It's just confusing. I feel our situation is sort of fitting a lot of typical situations but they are more nuanced and complex. She IS making an effort to be more healthier in her interactions with me but in doing so she is taking time away from her own healing. She is showing more physical affection and she is more conscious about her words towards me. I just need to INTERNALIZE and act more consistently on only exchanging positive emotions. But often it is her who tries to address the issues in the M and I try to not get too deep with that but it has been a way for us to recognize each other's needs.

===
Oh sandi2 also asked about how I know what OM says. No she has been in her own bedroom for months (I kind of move a lot while sleeping and steal blankets and sometimes kick her... we need a king bed) But she has been saying that when I say I worry about her being up late and needing rest she says funny you say that because OM says those things too. She might be lying but like I said I almost feel as if they truly have more of a friendship that just got increasingly more serious.

Her counselor friend (not the one we are seeing BTW) said that she knows couples who always struggle around each seven year mark and I had been reading that. I just wish I would have been less threatened...because even back in March W asked to go to counseling and I kind of was meh about it. That would have avoided OM and it would have made getting back on track easier. But she recognizes she betrayed me and I recognize that our problems predate OM. Before Friday I wasn't sure if she saw that first part as she mentioned the second part.

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Originally Posted By: Tobias


It's just confusing. I feel our situation is sort of fitting a lot of typical situations but they are more nuanced and complex.


My thought, your situation is following the script. It may seem more complex because you are trying to cheat the process; it's pretty consistently understood that you CANNOT work on the M while there is OM. Things are complex because you are trying to work on the M before the A is over or before either of you have worked on yourselves.

ps - I did the same thing, tried to work on my M while my WW was still in contact with OM. I snooped to find out if there was contact, every thing I found my W had a lie for, and I kept trying to work on the MR. It doesn't work. If I had to do my sitch again, I would have walked out the day I saw the texts, not said a word to her, just walked out the door and waited a couple of months before any contact. that way I could of let her do her journey without me having to see it, you can't stop the journey and I wasn't strong enough to deal with the thought of them together.

In your case, I think that's extreme, but I think you need to make a clear boundary of no open M, go dark and only interact by validating and being pleasant, and go find your own happiness.


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
10/31/16 - We sold house
01/10/18 - D Finalized
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You may be right. In this case my W convinced herself that somehow she can just be friends with OM. She wants to talk about him and then I walk away and she then wonders why I walk away.

I really wish she had more friends here that she can hang out with. He truly is the ONLY person that doesn't know me and who she can hang out with.

But I need to quit wasting my energy. Either she is deceitful and there is no point in wasting energy OR she is trying and my actions make it harder for her. It's just really hard when she talks about at some point probably hanging out with OM. She frames it as friends and I want to believe that but I just don't see how this makes sense at all.

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If I had to do my sitch again, I would have walked out the day I saw the texts, not said a word to her, just walked out the door and waited a couple of months before any contact. that way I could of let her do her journey without me having to see it, you can't stop the journey and I wasn't strong enough to deal with the thought of them together.


There have been WW's to come to the board saying that's exactly what their H did.......and it was him immediately walking out on her that had her in tears and begging for help from the forum, b/c it yanked her out of the fog or fantasy (whatever you want to call it) and she became the LBW.

Personally, I agree with Coconut, and believe that action would be very effective in most cases with a WW. The problem is trying to convince the newcomers. First, they won't do it, and they have a zillion excuses for not walking away. (It all boils down to fear). The majority of LBH's in newcomers fit the descrription of the NGS......and nice-guys just don't work that way. Second, I'm sure hands would be smacked if that became routine advice on a M saving forum.

IMHO, the effectiveness comes in walking away immediately upon learning about the OM. That's why dropping the rope works so well. However, by the time a lot of guys come to the board, they have been in their stitch for weeks/months. When the H waits around trying to do this & that, she knows he's not going anywhere anytime soon. So, she continues to play him.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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So we had our second MC session and it was rough because we addressed the big elephant in the room that she feels unsafe and I feel like her interactions with OM feels like an invader.

The counselor basically encouraged both of us to start thinking about "I" rather than "the marriage". Basically she reinforced what is discussed in the DR book. I am relieved W is now exposed to this approach to basically translate unhealthy thoughts, emotions, behavior to healthier expressions. It turns out W has her own fears just like I did but it will be interesting to see if we both start exchanging this type of language.

Counselor was emphatic to W but called out that the depression is way deeper than the M.

My goal (which I know will be challenged but I am going to have to be resilient) is to not add any emotional turmoil until we see the counselor again on Monday. If successful it will have broken the chain of subsequent weekends where something happens. Anytime OM is brought up I get unhealthy thoughts. Any other situation I am easily able to validate, nod, and just relax.

W also seems worried that if she asks me to go to dinner that I think everything is fixed. Despite me telling her this will take a long time and that no I won't see it as fixed. But what IS true: anytime she takes a step closer she takes two steps back. Now that I know her fear and now that SHE knows a way to possibly break that cycle perhaps we can all relax.

W. did implement the technique after we got home.

It's amazing. We never set our M up right and I think that has made her to think that despite being together for almost a decade and having quite a lot of good times as well that she thinks we are just not compatible at all. I am stubborn enough to think that I would like to try being a better person and as such having a much better situation.

But sandi2: she mentioned to the counselor how early on she wasn't sure but kept hearing her friends say he is a nice guy. That I was like a father figure. She did grow from someone who thought she had agoraphobia to now someone who wants to explore. So you are pretty spot on. BUT the depression is also a major factor. And the counselor said she doesn't think it's the marriage but that it goes way deeper into her past.

Anyway. Baby steps and I need to stick to not having emotional turmoil even IF she is talking to OM. Hopefully, she now realizes on her own how that is not helping matters.

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Last night we had our third session (yes a bit early but we are going on a trip, W is first going somewhere alone and later we meet up in a place she would love to do her PhD in).

I have done a mediocre job in GAL (mostly due to the fact W doesn't drive and we work at same place and so our lives intersect and interconnect quite a bit). With OM still in the picture not anymore (at this stage at least) as a PA but I suspect still an EA (although W says it is mostly jokes and she has shown me a few texts here and there that indicate that is the case).

We are entering what seems to be the end of two months of me recognizing I might actually lose her and so my sleeping has been tricky. She is exhausted as well. So that increases the chances for emotional meltdowns (on both our parts). For the most part I have detached and done 180s except for when OM is mentioned (W. says she realizes she messed up (she used a different word but I want to respect the moderators here), she also wants to be honest even though she realizes it might be painful for me).

The MC has been a life saver. While I still need to work on myself and not talk myself on the ledge the MC has essentially calmed my anxiety down by highlighting things I tried tell W. Ironically, in the car ride back my W said "she says things that I have been trying to tell you which is a great relief to me" and I laughed and said "funny you say that, because I feel like she is saying things I have been trying to tell YOU". Which shows that a fundamental issue between us is interpretation of words. I didn't disclose that here yet but I am originally not from the US.

Last week we were told to focus on healthy versus unhealthy thoughts, emotions and behaviors. As I mentioned last week W. immediately implemented it, that gave me hope and patience. However, friday morning came around and I knew she would be anxious for the weekend. She then went on to say that she had told OM vaguely that maybe they would go get drinks later that night. I felt that was gas lighting on her part and I initially detached and later decided I needed to express how I felt to avoid something greater down the road. Initially I wanted to see if she would actually go but that to me seemed like a more potentially explosive scenario.

Something that gave me hope happened. She initially was hesitant but then proceeded to discuss this using the language of healthy and unhealthy and told me that she came up with a rule not to hang out with OM if we had a bad night or if we weren't in a good place. I told her I want to trust her that it is just friendship with OM but that I would be much happier if she went for drinks with ANY other friend (male or female). She understands that. She also expressed initial reluctance in counselor bringing up her depression but she realizes it plays a bigger role than she gave it credit for. That gave me an opportunity to validate her concerns about my behavior the past decade and I said that I am relieved she recognizes that and that one of my biggest regrets was not recognizing my own role in our problems and essentially blaming everyone on HER depression which led to isolation and anger. I know the technique by MWD calls for not going beyond my own role and I am sticking to that probably 80% of the time but my W has expressed fear and she sees that as me rather than the connection to OM. I do think she slowly is beginning to to connect the dots and of course it's my own fault for being wayyyyyy too accommodating once I found out about OM.

But in MC we were asked to report on the healthy/unhealthy behaviors and I reported on our Friday situation that was a huge fire being gas lit and it actually slowly dying out. W nodded and MC asked W if she agreed. So then the MC asked about the emotion with the communication (which was labeled as thoughts). W said "regret, but that isn't an emotion so she went with frustration" MC asked why: "it just feels like too little too late". MC asked me. I said I kind of agree with W about frustration and me recognizing I should have done this sooner but that I am also hopeful that we are finally communicating (honestly, we have talked more about real things in the past few weeks than in an entire decade) but that I have also felt exhausted. Which W. said as well. W. was then asked for the behavior associated with it and she said the communication and not leading to a huge fight gave her rest. MC then said you know what is so great about what you both just said? W was confused and was looking at words like frustration and exhaustion. MC said you are FINALLY on the same page. Even though it doesn't feel like that, you both have the same emotion. That is an important stepping stone and both of you need to continue looking at your individual contributions: "what am I contributing to this relationship...not marriage...but relationship" which of course was what I was familiar with so I validate a lot (especially when it's legitimately true what W says) and the MC seems to appreciate that. W. also nods a lot for the things I say. MC was going to express something that seemed to be about our future potential but then caught herself and said no, what I think isn't important. She said... you two in three weeks have done a lot of positives and I have never seen any couple get there THIS quickly. She said she cannot guarantee the end result (mostly because of course W feels pressured and doesn't know where she stands) but that if we continue the focus on individual contributions that whatever the outcome is we will both be in great mental places.

Because we had the trip planned and we won't be able to see MC next week she had us write down up to five things we would both do on this trip for ourselves. I was already planning to not expect anything romantic and basically letting W rest and maybe do fun things exploring the city but this activity helped us get on the same page. MC encouraged both of us to release something that is holding us back (not necessarily about our relationship but something that affected us).

When we came home. We both went to sleep early. But we both woke up around midnight. We spend some time together and W started kissing me. She wanted more but I told her I have been so exhausted these past few months that I don't know how much is possible. We cuddled a bit. But this is when I realized why I also need to focus on GAL and getting rest. It's started to affect my overall health and of course that decreases the chances of me being someone I can feel good about.

So two months in and about a month since I discovered about OM. My progress was greatly halted and undone after I discovered about OM. My fear to lose her made me want to accommodate her keeping OM in her life. Partially that is because of my guilt that she feels trapped and has lost close friends who either live out of state or moved away from us.

But W. is going to MC, she validates my worth, she has been honest about how she is interacting with OM and how she is just not sure how she feels about a future together (unless of course she is telling OM all sorts of other things but I highly doubt that). She does every now and then talk about possible things in the future but then catches herself and it is clear now that she is afraid that doing so makes me think everything is ok. Perhaps that fear has SOME merit but I do realize this is a marathon.

My commitment to GAL and detaching needs to continue. W. does recognize I am giving her space and that space makes her want to hang out with me. There are just a few moments where I need to control my emotions better. W said last week: best way for me to open up to you is through patience.

Things I need to do better (I am typing it out because it holds me more accountable) is not reaching out to her. She WILL come to me... she has shown that. Did I have doubts about her sincerity? Yes. Did I worry me not expressing how I really feel about her and OM? Yes. But if we have a future together I need to give her space. Especially now that she recognizes just how complicated her own actions have been. But the "nice" thing about that is that when W points out she messed up and apologizes for that it gives me an opportunity to validate her by saying thanks for that apology and I appreciate that but I also want you to know that I recognize the problems started way before OM.

TL;DR (sorry I am not succinct but I also type these long posts as being cathartic for me so I can let go off these thoughts and focus) IF and WHEN I actually GAL and detach it will likely increase the time W wants to spend with me. It will show her that I can be a stable person she would want to be with. And by me moving beyond the past, she has an opportunity to do the same. It may not work out, but we won't get to a better state until we both let go off the past. I will say that either I am really stubborn or I have fallen even more in love with W. (or a combination).

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So we came back from our trip and for the most part it was nice. W. showed a lot of intimacy and spoke about me applying for jobs there. But she also still texts OM. I confronted her about that and she acts defensive and says they are just friends and how I am blackmailing her if I want her to go NC because (I assume) she doesn't know what will happen between us.

This is the only thing I confront her about because to me the OM needs to be out of the picture. I know I wrote something else in the past on here but it has been rough. I feel like giving her space makes it hard when I know OM is still in the picture. And it may not be a PA at this stage anymore but it sure feels like an EA. W even said he isn't a bad person when I mentioned that my initial reaction was more based on my expectation that OM would just leave us the [insert cuss word] alone after he knew I knew.

The trip was nice and it does confirm that we need to be in a different place. Not that moving will fix everything but it might help offer a fresh start. The problem is we cannot think and talk about that until we have figured things out. So I don't know what to trust from my W. when she gives me compliments and talks about feeling empowered thinking about us in a different place...but also saying that she doesn't feel in love with me again. She did acknowledge for the first time that bringing OM to our home was disrespectful. Her actions towards me are mostly warm but there are moments when she lashes out. She says she is scared and it is very clear she thinks my changes are temporary and that it feels too little too late. TLTL should be an abbreviation on here haha!

She said she cannot work on herself and be a whole person when she is worried about how I will feel and react. I told her that I can give her space but that knowing that OM is still in the picture makes it harder...and that I don't think either one of us can be a whole person until OM is out of the picture. She has also mentioned that while she loved being with me on this trip that she needs space and thinks she needs to move out.

So why did I lose my cool? Well our MC told us it was good she wanted to mediate in a natural park where we would go to. I told her during the session that I wanted to do that myself. Right in the middle of the hike a mutual friend who had JUST moved to the area texted her and when she said that I saw she had texted OM. Earlier on the trip his name was nowhere to be found. I get it. I shouldn't snoop but I felt so disrespected at that moment that on this hike where it should be about us independently W decided to text OM. And of course it wasn't snooping as so much I saw her phone when she spoke to me. She said it was just to wish him happy 4th. After that we did not stay distant long... she spoke about not having bad thoughts of another trip. She did reach out to me and comforted me.

The next day before we left she once again spoke about my plans to apply to a job and encouraged me to do so. She says she is uncertain about the future. I told her so am I. She mentioned how she feels we are sexually compatible and how that is nice. She thinks I am attractive. I just don't know if her saying the scenery being different might make everything a lot easier is sincere or not.

She is making an effort I just don't know why she is so reluctant to not talk to OM. I assume it is because she wants a fall back option for when things don't work out but she wants to leave the state in a year and OM wouldn't be in the picture.

I don't want to think it all falls back to money concerns and her feeling her image would be tarnished.

This morning I dropped W off at work as I needed to head back to the house to wait for the AC maintenance. When I dropped her off I mentioned how maybe I would be back in time for her lunch and after I said that she said how she needs to study for her GRE test (to get into the PhD program) and cannot become a whole person if she worries how I feel etc. So that is when I mentioned how I said I don't think either one of us can be whole with OM in the picture. She called that blackmail. Later she did text me saying she hates that we fought and the conversations turned back to more neutral tone. But I just have a hard time trusting her. If she moves out I worry that fear will only increase. She would also not be able to see me and I worry that will make it even more likely she is gone.

My plan right now is that our fourth session is tomorrow (THANK GOD our MC encouraged us to come in tomorrow instead of waiting longer.) and I will bring up that I just cannot get past the fact that OM is still in the picture. Maybe the MC can then say we should either just call it quits or encourage W to really think about that.

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Tobias,

Why are you wasting your money on MC when there is an OM involved?

What are your boundaries regarding living in an open marriage?

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Because I felt she was trying to feel the desire to work on our M again.

Because I was hoping that her going through MC and hearing C say that contact with OM is not a good idea and how it's about what we both put into the relationship that this would make W realize that we have a long hard road ahead of us but that the longer OM is involved the harder it will be.

Because I trust my W when she says OM and her are friends.

Because I know I need patience and also need to sin for my failures as a H.

Because I don't want to end things even though I know they should be ended because of financial reasons beyond emotional reasons.

Because I see progress and every step forward I want it to be a larger step.

Because I think her talking to OM might make it easier on her.

Because I don't know if I can trust her saying nice things about me while also saying she doesn't know yet.

Because she changed wanting to go to MC because of wanting to end things peacefully to maybe wanting to see if she can feel she wants to work on it.

Because I would hate knowing I am a failure at 40 with no kids and pretty much sacrificing that. I was okay not having kids because she didn't want kids but now I wonder if I made the right choice.

Because I have gone for dual citizenship here and I would lose my native country's citizenship unless I am married to a US citizen.

Because I am stubborn and a fighter and I hate giving up.

Because I don't think but rather feel.

You need more reasons? smile

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As to the other question. I am open to an open marriage IF and only IF we are in a good space. From what I understand about these things that is the only way it would even work. Initially I thought we could get there but when that didn't lead to progress I realized that W might not really desire that and she either wants me to change or she wants out but doesn't know how.

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So we had our MC today and I kind of lost it. I know I should have kept quiet but I knew this was a ticking time bomb. I mentioned that I kind of don't feel I can give W space with OM involved. She admitted at the session that while he said he would leave her alone so we can work things out that she begged him to stay since they are both going through the same thing (ending a relationship. Ironically he got cheated on by his GF). She expects a D and fears being isolated. She told MC that she doesn't want to be M. She confirmed that all physical activities stopped (I kind of knew that given our unique situation of W not driving and us pretty much being in same place 24/7) but that she admits it is an emotional connection.

I confronted her about what happened on the trip and she said it was just as friends with me and that there is a familiar touch that is nice. And because I had said let's take it day by day (which is true...I just assumed she would slowly engage in NC with OM).

MC told her that clearly she is confused about what W wants as she cannot be working on the MR if she is also talking to someone about leaving the M. W said that she just doesn't know what to do. She wants to feel in love with me but she doesn't (I am not sure WHAT she misses, she says we have fun, we enjoy similar activities, she said before we flew back home that clearly we have great sexual chemistry, she thinks I am great at my profession and she would love for me to also be in another State...to me that is marriage: a profound friendship where two people enjoy each other's company regardless of what we do...) --> I do recognize that my impatience and impulsiveness and focus on money often prevented us from enjoying things. Add to that that during fights we both were mean and it escalated and whereas I want to fix problems at once, W needs space. So those are HUGE things that were never set up right.

MC asked me (when I gave the chance...ugh I really need to be better controlling my emotions but this had been weighing on me for weeks) if I wanted a decision now. I said I can wait as long as W needs but that it would be easier if OM is not in the picture. MC said that she has never heard of a situation where someone else was involved and it being good for the R. She also said that W is perhaps giving conflicting messages and false hope.

I mentioned how I don't feel a next MC session makes sense but W pleaded/asked that we go. So I agreed. W. also said that while she would feel empowered to think about us in a different State that here she feels trapped and feels that she needs to move out to clear her head. (At home she added that she knows she takes me for granted and kind of needs to know what happens when she misses me and I am not right there to help her.) and that because our lives are so intertwined that it is hard for her to have time for herself and is always worried what I think... I interrupted (shouldn't have done that) and said but that is because of OM.

MC said that she thinks we can get out of this but only IF both of us commit (yeah...I knew that, hence why I was so emotional). She said that some couples come out stronger after one of the people moves out. She also told W that I am communicating better in these sessions (although I was bad today and need to apologize to her) and that while I am clearly emotional that it is obvious I admire W and I love her and think she is amazing.

At home W suggested extended stay in a motel as an alternative. I said if she really thinks that will help and she isn't just doing that to prolong the inevitable that I can accept that. That I will try to not think OM is over there all the time. She said he won't come over. (I am trying to recall if she said all the time or implied not at all.) It doesn't matter. She knows how I feel and either she thinks she needs to get him out of her system and have more PA with him OR he truly is being a friend.

She shows compassion towards me when I am sad so I think that's a good sign. What is a bad sign is that I need to be strong if I want her to feel safe to come back. I really hope I can stay calm and she can see I am giving her space DESPITE knowing she talks to OM that maybe she will feel safer but part of me also thinks maybe her moving out would be the best especially if she commits to more MC which she said she wanted to do (I confronted her about her saying she wanted to date and she denied that at the session so maybe her thoughts did change or she is worried what MC would say). It would require an insane amount of emotional regulation on my part but it is important I focus on myself. I don't like feeling this way and it makes me whiny and unattractive.

At home she also said she regrets sleeping with him because he is a friend. When I mentioned it later she changed it to well not regret but...and she didn't finish. She did say we both need IC as well and she said she needs to do it and encourages me to do the same. Honestly, I need to work on things but for me it is mostly not knowing which side of W to belief. The one that comes closer to me. Laughs with me. Says we have sexual chemistry. Says she can see us live together in another State. OR the one that says she doesn't want to be married. Maybe both. Maybe neither. I can have patience. I have enough work to do...it's just that both of us want to leave the State in the next year. Figuring all this out how to leave AND how we feel about each other is going to be insanely difficult. The benefit I guess is that I can focus for a job so wherever I would go W COULD potentially follow me and do her PhD. Or maybe it just means we wait another year.

I do know we are both exhausted. I do know I love her. I do know she seems to care about me (in some fashion). I know she is worried about the finances when she moves out. I know she has major fear that I will hurt her. I know that in the past we both have been too excessively violent. But she starts to validate more and more that she contributed to the problem. And that we both have been emotionally abusive (my fault was only seeing her part for too long and not seeing how I did the same and sometimes worse). I know she validates that i have made huge changes for the better (she mentioned that to counselor as well) but that she feels it is too little too late. I told her that that is part of the reason I am frustrated because I was asleep for so long.

One other thing she said when we were home and she was in pain in her shoulders and neck and I did what I always do: rub it. She said it feels so good. So familiar. I love feeling that touch. She then sighed and said she messed up but doesn't know how to do it in this home. To me that is a glimmer of hope that what seems to be the biggest problem is getting over the fear of me, the resent towards me from the past and especially the too little too late. She even said we did so much bad to each other that it may be too much to overcome and I said: precisely because we both contributed that it is just important we start with a clean slate.

So maybe her moving out for a bit and not having me immediately there to rub it. Not immediately there to talk about her day. Not immediately there to think about our problems OR for any intimacy. She will either miss me and want to come back or decide she really wants out. Perhaps it will be too easier for her to do the latter. But I cannot control that. I can only control becoming the best H I can be.

My secret hope is that on Wed at our next session there is NO added drama from me. I have said my peace. She knows how i feel (and yes she did say I initially said something else and I explained that was fear). The MC now knows everything that is going on (except W talking about extended stay). But I don't know if she is mentioning these things to just delay the inevitable (because when I asked during the MC if there was anything that could change for her to want to recommit and she said not right now, not how things are. Which is different from what she said at home).

I know I need to detach and GAL. I know I need to accept that maybe she really is toying with my emotions. I know...don't believe anything she says and only half of what she does. But which half?

Long story short: I came to this board without knowing the full picture. When I found out about OM I acted way too accommodating. I slowly backtracked which of course makes sense why W is confused. So I am beginning at week 1 of this process.

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well

there's a lot in this so I'm going to just pick a few parts out. Others will focus on the OM more than I will- at the moment --- just b/c I want to focus on a few of your past comments I found maritally dangerous.

This is Not me defending your w's affair!


I don't know how conflicts were resolved in your family or origin or your wife's. That would be something to really look at. Do you recall how your parents or siblings dealt with conflict?

IMO, You are here largely b/c you both don't know how to fight fairly, so there's fear in her, and you don't actually resolve conflict. So feelings are pressed down, then they brew, and fester, and morph into intense feelings of resentment and alienation and for both of you - depression.

You have mentioned, repeatedly that you have a temper, you frequently "escalate" things when you are "emotional" (but really, when else would you escalate other than when it's emotional? I mean it's not much of a reason. )

You used the word "Violent" in arguments. That's a huge red flag to me and frankly, that bothers me so much that I can barely speak to the OM issues, without first saying WTF??

YES ^^that is something to fix asap. Otherwise It can literally be fatal. (I'm not being overly dramatic either. Tempers, stressors and affair partners are bad combinations.)

What are you doing to address your ability to express feelings of anger without losing control of your mouth or tone?

How will you learn to resolve conflicts in a better/different healthy way?

Your w has said she'd like a different marriage with you, so what would that look like and how are you showing her this?

(I'm not referring to OM but to your behavioral issues, specifically being worked on).

As for you being okay with her being polyamorous, "if you are in a good place", what does that mean? Are you also polyamorous?

Or do you mean if it's sex with another woman?

I have to say I'm having a hard time envisioning this working out well for you. That's partly b/c to me, being in a "good place" maritally would eliminate the perceived need for other lovers. I guess I'm mainstream in that way. I have read about swingers and open marriages. And their increased divorce rate.

So my main question would be,

Why throw gasoline on a fire, when staying married is hard enough as it is?

More later...

hang in there.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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If we were able to look in on that MC session where you "lost it", what we see you doing? Do you scream, pace around, throw things, curse, threaten, try to punch something? What be the main thing we saw that told us you had lost it.

As for as you considering an open M, have you ever been closely associated with the practice? I'm wondering if this more accommodation for your W.

Quote:
Because I felt she was trying to feel the desire to work on our M again.


Based on something she said or did that caused you to feel this way?

Quote:
Because I was hoping that her going through MC and hearing C say that contact with OM is not a good idea and how it's about what we both put into the relationship that this would make W realize that we have a long hard road ahead of us but that the longer OM is involved the harder it will be.


Has the MC made it clear........or have you been disappointed the MC didn't express enough of what you wanted your W to hear? From the quote above, have you been disappointed in the MC or your W's response?

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Because I trust my W when she says OM and her are friends.


But I thought you snooped and discovered they were more than friends.

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Because I know I need patience and also need to sin for my failures as a H.


Do you feel your failures as a H, justifies your W's affair?

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Because I don't want to end things even though I know they should be ended because of financial reasons beyond emotional reasons.


Could you explain what you mean, please?

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Because I see progress and every step forward I want it to be a larger step.


Can give one of the ways it has progressed?

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Because I think her talking to OM might make it easier on her.


I don't want to sound rude, however, this line of thinking is setting you up for something bad. You must not accommodate her EA/PA, nor a so-called "friendship" with OM.

Quote:
Because I don't know if I can trust her saying nice things about me while also saying she doesn't know yet.


confused

Quote:
Because she changed wanting to go to MC because of wanting to end things peacefully to maybe wanting to see if she can feel she wants to work on it.


Okay

Quote:
Because I would hate knowing I am a failure at 40 with no kids and pretty much sacrificing that. I was okay not having kids because she didn't want kids but now I wonder if I made the right choice
.

So, you were okay with her not wanting kids.......and you were accommodating her wishes over your own. But if she doesn't stay with you....it makes you a failure and you sacrificed the kids? I hope you will remember this when trusting her in other areas of the MR.

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Because I have gone for dual citizenship here and I would lose my native country's citizenship unless I am married to a US citizen.


Ohhhhhhhhh!

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Because I am stubborn and a fighter and I hate giving up.


How do you act when you are stubborn and a fighter?

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Because I don't think but rather feel.
.

That's not good, b/c your wayward wife is operating out of emotions, also. There has to be someone with functional brain power! frown


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

IMO, You are here largely b/c you both don't know how to fight fairly, so there's fear in her, and you don't actually resolve conflict. So feelings are pressed down, then they brew, and fester, and morph into intense feelings of resentment and alienation and for both of you - depression.


Oh you hit it on the head. Although I think I mentioned this somewhere here: when she says something to me that is mean I shrug it off as her being just in the moment. She believes everything I say. I took her saying those things for granted and that added gasoline.

Quote:
You have mentioned, repeatedly that you have a temper, you frequently "escalate" things when you are "emotional" (but really, when else would you escalate other than when it's emotional? I mean it's not much of a reason. )


Yes. It is mostly because W doesn't seem to recognize that still speaking with OM is just something that is okay. I should have been firmer from the start that while I can forgive her for that indiscretion because clearly I caused her to drift away from me that any continued contact is not good. I was worried to lose her, and I thought maybe it could just work. Whatever it was, I didn't act well.

The past few weeks any meltdown was solely around OM, either her texting him, either her mentioning wanting to hang out.

On the other hand, beyond this sitch I have come to recognize that I also need to count to 10 more often. Especially when I feel cornered I can lash out. For the most part I am usually very calm. But what happened with W is that for too long I was afraid of what was happening with us (pretty much entire decade of knowing her) and I let things slide and when it reached it a boiling point it escalated.

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You used the word "Violent" in arguments. That's a huge red flag to me and frankly, that bothers me so much that I can barely speak to the OM issues, without first saying WTF??


Yes. And this is also part of why I focused on her being the problem for too long. Yes, I have pushed her out of the apartment (I was afraid and did that assuming she would apologize and say she was wrong...wtf indeed) but over the years she has been more violent with me that I said she has anger issues. I blame myself for being arrogant and not seeing that I too had anger issues. I told W actually today that I no longer want to win the fight at all cost. And to both our credit for the past three months we may have yelled at times or been upset but we have not had escalating fights that became violent (violence also being slamming doors, throwing stuff on the ground).

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YES ^^that is something to fix asap. Otherwise It can literally be fatal. (I'm not being overly dramatic either. Tempers, stressors and affair partners are bad combinations.)


I would never forgive myself for letting myself get too violent. The worst I could see myself doing is physically pushing her out which i have done before. But you're absolutely right. I think we both let things come to a boiling point and neither of us liked that. That pattern needs to stop.

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What are you doing to address your ability to express feelings of anger without losing control of your mouth or tone?

How will you learn to resolve conflicts in a better/different healthy way?


We will have to see my updates in the coming weeks but I think the MC session helped me become calmer. MC now knows W still talks to OM and W understands now fully that I am not okay with any contact. OM is also apparently afraid of me (which is funny because I am usually described as a gentle giant and OM has guns). I have mentally told myself that W has two choices: she can either contribute to the R and any contact with OM is purely as friends (and I am almost inclined to believe that) OR she can decide to play with my emotions and still engage in a PA. If she does that I expect her to either experience more psychological distress (right before I discovered evidence she was really at a low place and even seemed suicidal although she now denies saying that) OR for her to admit it and say she needs to move out and we need to pursue D.

Am I completely at ease? No. But W is afraid of me at times and she has legitimate reasons that go beyond OM for that. Now her not wanting NC doesn't help. But her fears need to be removed. Only I can do that and that can only happen when I stay calm. So I need to keep myself busy. And I also plan to journal whenever I have dark thoughts so I distract myself.

Will I succeed? Time will tell.

I also expect MC will help us with that and I believe that once W does IC she will receive tools to get over resentment. I have already mostly focused on the present and barely bring up the past.

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Your w has said she'd like a different marriage with you, so what would that look like and how are you showing her this?
(I'm not referring to OM but to your behavioral issues, specifically being worked on). As for you being okay with her being polyamorous, "if you are in a good place", what does that mean? Are you also polyamorous? Or do you mean if it's sex with another woman? I have to say I'm having a hard time envisioning this working out well for you. That's partly b/c to me, being in a "good place" maritally would eliminate the perceived need for other lovers. I guess I'm mainstream in that way. I have read about swingers and open marriages. And their increased divorce rate.


Just as a clarification. W ONLY mentioned this the day after I discovered the PA. And maybe a few days after that. She has no longer expressed that desire. She IS a sexual creature but after she learned I too felt we didn't have enough sex she seemed to see me in a different light. The sex we have had lately has been more passionate and wild. This may be a good sign or it may not be. But I almost think W felt she was in a sexless marriage and couldn't see herself be a 30 year woman who wouldn't have much sex anymore. I do have some insecurities but have been way more open about them.

On the other hand from a theoretical perspective I COULD see myself being okay with polyamory. The ONLY way this works is communication and trust. Neither of which exist right now. I personally am completely fine having sex with only and just my W. But I am an academic so I explore that question differently than perhaps I should.

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Why throw gasoline on a fire, when staying married is hard enough as it is?


Well I think W needs to figure out if she is throwing gasoline on our R by remaining friends. She has said once she feels she wants to recommit she would break contact.

From my part I was way too accommodating and that of course confused W. But you're right. It was playing with fire. Honestly, she said herself that it was easier for her to work on us while she could see him. And that she saw me in a different light once it became a PA. She did seem less cold and more wanting to be intimate a few days before I found evidence BUT this was mixed with distress.

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Originally Posted By: sandi2
If we were able to look in on that MC session where you "lost it", what we see you doing? Do you scream, pace around, throw things, curse, threaten, try to punch something? What be the main thing we saw that told us you had lost it.


Funny you ask. I interrupted both the MC and W... probably the best term is "sounding frustrated" my W didn't seem to get that me getting emotional was because she keeps talking to OM. MC seems to agree. I did have tears near the end. So perhaps "losing it" doesn't describe it well but I was NOT calm, overly friendly and respectful.

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As for as you considering an open M, have you ever been closely associated with the practice? I'm wondering if this more accommodation for your W.


See my response above this post. This keeps being brought up in here but in reality W hasn't mentioned it. At one point she said she wants to be single and date again (maybe that first week after I discovered PA) but when I mentioned that during our last MC session she shook her head and said no she just feels she needs to be out of the home and rest. (at which point I 'lost' it and frustratingly said: you can have all the rest you want if there is NC. She calls that blackmail.

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Because I felt she was trying to feel the desire to work on our M again.

Based on something she said or did that caused you to feel this way?


She mentioned future steps. Liking that I can ease her anxiety. Looking for jobs for me in the state she wants to move to. Being more intimate towards me (not just sex)

Quote:
Has the MC made it clear........or have you been disappointed the MC didn't express enough of what you wanted your W to hear? From the quote above, have you been disappointed in the MC or your W's response?


No MC said that at the end of intake session that it is best that there are no other people involved. W in car after session said she couldn't yet commit to that. I was accommodating and of course that caused inner turmoil with me. I hated the idea of another fight so I just nodded. MC made it VERY clear that in her knowledge no couple has successfully resolved things when there was someone else involved. She also told W that because she is in MARRIAGE counseling that speaking with a person ALSO going through breaking up their relationship only leads to confusion.

I wonder if I can stay calm for a prolonged period that maybe W would be more comfortable letting him go. Like I said above...her fear of me is legitimate despite me not wanting her to be afraid. But I can only accomplish that by staying calm REGARDLESS of what she does. (in her eyes the PA is completely separate from our issues which in some way is true)

So yes, disappointed in W that she cannot even let him go just yet. And I told her that if she does that that it doesn't mean we are fixed. But it would be easier for me to when she asks for space and privacy to just do my own thing.

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Because I trust my W when she says OM and her are friends.
But I thought you snooped and discovered they were more than friends.


Yes. She claims they are friends. First week she wanted to date me one night and go to a hotel with him the next night. THANK GOD his work hours are insane so they just went for a drink. She claims that night she said she could be friends with him. Maybe a day or two later she said when I discovered PA she still expected to sleep with him again. But ever since she says the conversation has been about jokes. Apparently OM offered to remove himself but she claims she begged him not to abandon her. In MC W mentioned OM could be a resource WHEN we would be divorced as everyone else she knew there has a connection to me.

Is she in denial about this? Possibly. Would she sleep with him first chance she has? Maybe. But I decided to take a risk. Not only am I going to see a friend for a few days after mentioning in MC that I have been afraid to leave her alone. She either gets rest and perhaps wants to recommit...or if she sees OM and continues PA she would likely experience psychological distress again like it happened right before I discovered evidence. Now, this time I wouldn't necessarily have evidence but it should help with W's fear that I don't give her space and privacy. W also mentioned considering doing extended stay in a hotel for a week to see if she would miss me. It has a huge risk of her being able to see OM. But it is clear she cares about me. It's clear she is exhausted. So nothing will improve unless she finds rest.

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Because I know I need patience and also need to sin for my failures as a H.
Do you feel your failures as a H, justifies your W's affair?


Umm. Partially. I think I am able to forgive her for this because I wasn't innocent. I heard her say she wasn't happy. I heard her ask for MC a few years ago. I knew I wasn't perfect.

But I don't think she is justified to continue doing this WHILE also talking about possible future steps with me (trips, fixing house, moving to another state). She validates that I have made changes and improvements so at this point I don't think she is justified to have an A.

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Because I don't want to end things even though I know they should be ended because of financial reasons beyond emotional reasons.
Could you explain what you mean, please?


Well divorce means we both go from two incomes to one. From living relatively comfortable to struggling. Emotionally I still want us to be married but beyond that there is a great financial cost from divorce. Now if there was no emotional investment money shouldn't be the reason you stay married.

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Because I see progress and every step forward I want it to be a larger step.
Can give one of the ways it has progressed?


When I came to this board she was cold almost mean. She would hide her naked body from me. She wouldn't even want to do anything like go to a movie. Since then she has wanted to spend time with me (and this has continued despite my emotional breakdowns), she went from basically no intimacy not even a hug to last week on the trip having sex once or multiple times every day. From laughing in my face that nothing could save the marriage to more and more talking about possible future plans. Now, mix in some fear as to how I reacted at times the progress stopped.

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Because I think her talking to OM might make it easier on her.
I don't want to sound rude, however, this line of thinking is setting you up for something bad. You must not accommodate her EA/PA, nor a so-called "friendship" with OM.


Not rude at all. I kind of agree. But I have begged, demanded, pleaded, asked nicely both in and outside of MC to please enter NC. Other than insisting she leaves the house I don't see what else I can do. She now KNOWS I am not happy he is still around. And she claims that it has been weeks ago when she last talked to him deep into the night which is something she did early on...mostly because he works late hours.

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Because I don't know if I can trust her saying nice things about me while also saying she doesn't know yet.


I mean... She doesn't know if she wants to be married yet says I look amazing, smell amazing, am amazing...all sorts of things. I guest worst case scenario she is lying. Best case scenario: she still is in love... other likely scenario: she cares about me but isn't in love.

Honestly, I asked her today to think about what it is she is missing in our R (other than our fights and conflict resolution needing improvement) she says she loves spending time with me, thinks we have great sexual chemistry and laughs with me. She calls me her best friend. To me marriage is a solid friendship where you love doing things with each other.

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Because I am stubborn and a fighter and I hate giving up.
How do you act when you are stubborn and a fighter?


Well I am not telling her to just leave. It would be easy to just get this over with. I am basically living with someone who wants to be in her own room. Who doesn't say ILY. Who has already found someone she loves having sex with. Who is still there. I mean... that is a lot of extra things to deal with and especially knowing that with every day it drags on that I am wasting restarting my life. But I see it as I am already restarting my life and hopefully my W jumps on board at some point. It's easier to do that if she lives under the same roof.

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Because I don't think but rather feel.
That's not good, b/c your wayward wife is operating out of emotions, also. There has to be someone with functional brain power! frown
.

I agree smile In the first part I was able to do that and I slowly got her coming back. Then I discovered the PA and ever since I am having difficulty controlling emotions.

At the same time I am not turning down intimacy because I really feel it rebuilds some connection. It doesn't fix everything and I am trying not to initiate it. But I do think W missed some sexual passion with me for some while and maybe this will at least be a building block. Not that everything is fixed. But if she thinks of me just as a friend than not having any intimacy seems like a danger.

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Tobias,

You have been given a lot of great advice. I was in a similar place to you after b d in September and was just like you, including allowing myself to listen to my w speak openly about OM, entertaining an open M, and a general willingness to do anything to save the M. The two best pieces of advice that I got here and seriously helped were to believe and then act and then say:

1. I will not be in a three way relationship.
2. I want to be your H not your friend.

I was afraid if I believed or acted on or said those things that it would be the end of the R. Instead, those were important steps in reclaiming my dignity and self identity apart from my W.

Another observation from your posts is I think you think and analyze you and your W and your situation way too much. It isn't helping you. Analysis is good. Over analysis suffocates and paralyzes you. I have learned this the hard way. That's one of the reasons why GAL and one day at a time is so important, to free your mind to think of other things or nothing at all. To do otherwise is too taxing and draining to do for the marathon that is before you.

Peace,

Gordie


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
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Gordie makes great points as has Sandi

But the emotional temper thing is still an issue. You seem to think b/c it's mostly about OM, it's alright. It's not alright to interact the way you two do, with any conflicts and this is a loaded one.

*you were not calm or in control of yourself when there was no OM in the picture, so it's something you have to work on.*

It is not attractive to see a man who cannot remain calm. It says "I cannot control myself" and is often coupled with a man who seeks to control others, ironically. Do not confuse a hot temper with romantic passion.

So I'd want to know what you are specifically doing to address your "heated communication" issues. We can all calmly compromise when a topic is not emotional or terribly important to us. That's the easy stuff we learn in school.

But dealing with a tension filled conflicting desires/emotions and lack of certainty about outcome, is always going to happen in life.

So whatever boundary or line you create, you still need to deal with this^^^ issue.

I know you are in pain. Gosh I don't mean to hammer you about something you already regret. I'm rooting for you.

I just worry it's being sort of tossed aside as not that big a deal. A vague promise to talk to a MC about it...

Throwing/breaking things, pushing her, are significant red flags to me and continue to be.

You can't just say "if she stops seeing OM then I'll be calm" - THEN we will handle things in a way we have not before...

how's that going to happen?


I know she has issues too.

But she's not here working on the m, you are.

Keep at this.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Originally Posted By: Gordie
Tobias,

You have been given a lot of great advice. I was in a similar place to you after b d in September and was just like you, including allowing myself to listen to my w speak openly about OM, entertaining an open M, and a general willingness to do anything to save the M. The two best pieces of advice that I got here and seriously helped were to believe and then act and then say:

1. I will not be in a three way relationship.
2. I want to be your H not your friend.

I was afraid if I believed or acted on or said those things that it would be the end of the R. Instead, those were important steps in reclaiming my dignity and self identity apart from my W.

Another observation from your posts is I think you think and analyze you and your W and your situation way too much. It isn't helping you. Analysis is good. Over analysis suffocates and paralyzes you. I have learned this the hard way. That's one of the reasons why GAL and one day at a time is so important, to free your mind to think of other things or nothing at all. To do otherwise is too taxing and draining to do for the marathon that is before you.

Peace,

Gordie


Gordie, thanks for your comment.

Yes, I think I agree with you as to making that clear boundary. To some degree W has come around more the past few days but it is very confusing for her (she keeps saying that word). What I am hoping she can articulate for herself is WHAT it is she is missing in the MR. The things she says she likes about me and us all point to a good potential. Maybe the problematic aspects (a weakening sex life, which recently got a little wilder and dare I say better AND the way we resolved conflicts..or rather escalated them).

I agree with the over analysis. I do think I am sincere when I say it is because of OM. It confused me why she kept him around. I have now made the commitment to myself that I stop worrying so much about that. She knows how I feel and if she wants to she will come back. But that is what I have done my entire life: I analyze things so I can survive. It's not healthy to do that right now I get that.

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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
But the emotional temper thing is still an issue. You seem to think b/c it's mostly about OM, it's alright. It's not alright to interact the way you two do, with any conflicts and this is a loaded one.

*you were not calm or in control of yourself when there was no OM in the picture, so it's something you have to work on.*

It is not attractive to see a man who cannot remain calm. It says "I cannot control myself" and is often coupled with a man who seeks to control others, ironically. Do not confuse a hot temper with romantic passion.

So I'd want to know what you are specifically doing to address your "heated communication" issues. We can all calmly compromise when a topic is not emotional or terribly important to us. That's the easy stuff we learn in school.

But dealing with a tension filled conflicting desires/emotions and lack of certainty about outcome, is always going to happen in life.

So whatever boundary or line you create, you still need to deal with this^^^ issue.

I know you are in pain. Gosh I don't mean to hammer you about something you already regret. I'm rooting for you.

I just worry it's being sort of tossed aside as not that big a deal. A vague promise to talk to a MC about it...

Throwing/breaking things, pushing her, are significant red flags to me and continue to be.

You can't just say "if she stops seeing OM then I'll be calm" - THEN we will handle things in a way we have not before...

how's that going to happen?


I know she has issues too.

But she's not here working on the m, you are.

Keep at this.


Thanks for your concern. I agree with that. To be clear; the violence has disappeared. Me pushing her out was years ago at the start of our marriage or maybe even slightly before that. Most of the other acts of violence have been her. The worst I have done is when she comes at me screaming or with an object is grab her wrist. I have since stopped doing that. But to be clear the last time that happened was at least a year ago.

We are right now at our worst division but I am proud we haven't had an escalating fight.

I agree that the temper is an issue and I may seem dismissive because I have been able to remain calm 99% of the time. The only exception is when it explicitly involves OM. I recognize that that 1% is also not helping matters.

What I do? Is think before I speak, walk away when an argument starts, rather than think about how I can win the argument I take a step back and think about if we REALLY have a different view point.

What I meant with the MC comment is that while I am determined to not have disagreements that escalate that W still clearly has fears about it. Hopefully the MC can help us give tools and resources. Either W gets to feeling safer on her own or through counseling. My desire and intent isn't enough to control how she feels. And of course she expresses anger and resentment and says things like too little too late. Etc.

But yes I agree with you that the temper is an issue. We are both explosive people and that is just not helping things. I actually think I tend to be calmer and I have been able to be calm.

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Tobias

just so you know, I'm in a Divorce Support group here in the US.

It's a great group of 12, (6 men/6 women). It has taught me so so much. Very comforting.


2 weeks ago, for the first time in the groups history, a h snapped and stabbed his wife to death and then shot himself to death.

He was in my group. We will never know what triggered it but he did say he had an "anger management" issue. The police had never been called and there was no history of domestic violence. He admitted he could snap at his kids/wife and get controlling.

And he had always remained calm in class and he attended every session for 39 weeks...

I'm a tad sensitive to tempers, escalations, etc.

Domestic violence is not always a linear path.

Don't freak out. I'm not calling you a monster or killer. I'm saying not to take it lightly.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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I fully agree with your fears. I don't like that side of myself and I also decided that I don't want to force W to stay with me if she wants out. While I want to fight for us and want to show her we can have a good MR ultimately I have to respect her choices.

If I stabbed her to death I would lose her too. If I let her go she at worst is gone from my life and at best may come back to me as a lover (and possibly as a friend). I don't like that reality but that is because at this point W does reach out to me for comfort and intimacy and so I don't just get coldness. I think it's mostly fear and uncertainty.

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So very random but W just walks to my office sits down and writes things that will make her feel empowered and the list is so simple (and I actually agreed several weeks ago that she should do them): do the GRE exam (for PhD), work out each day, open bank account (she had poor credit so everything is in my name...so I get that she feels that is controlling) and take driving lessons.

If the issue really is her fear of being trapped maybe doing these very simple steps would also empower me (I am always her driver and of course in fights I sometimes bring that up) maybe that is the source of her confusion and reluctance to want to work on this. I am not going to expect miracles anytime soon and I certainly need to keep giving her space (which I already accepted that if she needs to be alone that that doesn't mean she is mad at me) and I certainly shouldn't force her to think too much about the R. Leave that to the MC and IC.

I will say... the few times we have had sex lately has been magical. It is like we both recognize we are sexual creatures and we both were way too uncommunicative about that. And I think one of the draws to OM was that he was exciting in the bedroom.

We also have begun to do chores together like a team the past few weeks. I always felt she just expected me to do everything and the few times she asked me to cook with her I was uninterested. But we are working more as a team.

Now if we can do the same about finances especially with her having her own bank account perhaps there is a way out of the darkness.

I still expect this to at least take a year. And maybe tomorrow or tonight I write an update that contradicts what I just wrote but I am telling myself that it doesn't really matter if she wants to be married to me if the only change is her expressing those words. She still goes to MC, she still wants to spend time with me, she still continues to open up about her day (at one point I said I felt I was her therapist... she felt I was trying to fix her problems while she just needed someone to listen).

Don't get me wrong. We are clearly not together yet. It's very fragile. But if W focuses now on what would empower her it is a sign (I think) that she is thinking about a possible R with me. If she moves out the only thing she needs is a bank account (she had that as #3).

It makes me sad that she feels so controlled and trapped but after critical self reflection I acknowledge I wasn't great. It pains me because I teach about being careful of abusive relationships. But that is the past. I can only control myself NOW.

OR she is manipulating me and just is doing these things to help her move out. But several of the items don't fit the moving out part (GRE, working out). OR she could have simply said she needs to do these things to help her move out. But now I am over analyzing. And even if she isn't telling the truth, I come back to the fear part. She actually smiled when I said good list and that it would empower me to see her do those things.

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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Tobias

just so you know, I'm in a Divorce Support group here in the US.

It's a great group of 12, (6 men/6 women). It has taught me so so much. Very comforting.


2 weeks ago, for the first time in the groups history, a h snapped and stabbed his wife to death and then shot himself to death.

He was in my group. We will never know what triggered it but he did say he had an "anger management" issue. The police had never been called and there was no history of domestic violence. He admitted he could snap at his kids/wife and get controlling.

And he had always remained calm in class and he attended every session for 39 weeks...

I'm a tad sensitive to tempers, escalations, etc.

Domestic violence is not always a linear path.

Don't freak out. I'm not calling you a monster or killer. I'm saying not to take it lightly.


I'm so sorry that happened with someone in your group!

Thank you for sharing.

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004


A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.

Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
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So my W mentioned something about how she still doesn't feel in love and I told her we have to take it a day at a time especially if she is still scared.

The more I think about it the more I think she is just completely done with living in this State where she has virtually no room for advancement and because I wasn't behaving in the best way possible she saw me as part of the problem especially since I was complaining about the money needs for her to pursue that dream. I wanted to focus on those things and she heard me telling her no, she cannot do that. add that our sex lives became mundane and routine and the fact that I didn't really seem to give her attention the way she needed. This led to loss of respect for me because while I was at work I didn't seem to advance.

Since I discovered PA she has I think gotten some new respect for me but now she is in turmoil because a) she was convinced she wanted out, b) she tried and tried and tried to get me to go to MC or for me to recognize there was something wrong (in reality, I told her I was happy but I was always worried and afraid and desperate to find out what was wrong... a simple 'yes, let's go to MC would have done wonders') and c) her meeting someone else complicated everything.

She wants to keep OM around because the fear is still there and he is the only one here without a connection to me. She understands that I am worried that she does that and wants to be honest with me but also needs time and space to figure things out. Time and space I keep telling her she has but I keep having moments where I let my emotions get the best of me.

She says I need to stop doing nice things for her but she does appreciate them and enjoys them. She clearly cares for me and wants to feel differently but also needs to focus on herself. So today, when she woke up sick I was there to help her and she appreciates it but also feels guilty I am doing these things for her and apologizes she doesn't feel in love.

I truly think IC will help her clarify her own thought process and it could lead to either the start of a better R or perhaps the start of us breaking it all off.

She needs me to not always push her to do things and I have begun to be more patient.

She needs much more sexual intimacy and while we have this sitch going on we have been much freer and open in expressing our sexual desires and (she says so at least) it has been different and almost more passionate. I have been trying to let her initiate any intimacy like hugs and kisses and sex but a few times I initiated because I think one of her things was that she wants me to be more dominant and take what I want. I make sure she wants to and usually right after I initiate she gets excited and tells me what she wants. I recognize this may be risky but I also think that intimacy is the lifeblood of a relationship and if she sees me as a friend the more positive our intimacy is the more perhaps she can get out of the fog. (especially also because she calls herself fat and ugly...hence the working out desire she has) --> the fat and ugly probably didn't help that she thought I didn't want to have sex with her and there have been moments where she was seducing me and I was just not interested (I want to punch that version of me....!)

Related: she always says I walk fast. This is true...it's part of being Dutch, we walk fast. But there have been moments where I think she is right there and I am already half a mile ahead. Even worse..there have been a few times where I went through a door, held it open for a bit but DIDN'T check if she was there and the door fell shut right before her. Again I want to punch that person and lately I make an effort to not do that. I don't overdo opening doors but I make sure she is there. I check my pace often and adjust it to hers.

She always needed me to allow her some time alone and with some ups and downs I have been better at letting her do this.

She needed someone to listen to her rather than interrupt and fix things. In recent months I have done much better.

She always liked it when I touch her to ease her anxiety. She calls it familiar. She calls it feeling great. She wonders now if she can live without that. Or if that alone is reason enough to stay.

Of course her turmoil now is greater because she never thought I would be able to provide this and now she doesn't know that when she says ILY if I go back to the old person. But she VALIDATES that I made these changes.

My dilemma is: do I encourage her to stay here so she can see that even with our lives intertwined so much I can keep doing these things OR does she need to be out on her own. She wants a week in a hotel and that may be good because it is short term but expensive. She said what if she signs a multi month lease and after a week realizes she was being dumb. (the fact that she thinks that a few days is enough tells me that she doesn't really want to be done)

In the meantime her writing down four things she would feel more empowered with are important things to pursue. Perhaps THOSE four things alone would greatly make her feel less afraid and more likely to recognize we have a lot going for us.

To her credit she recognizes more and more how she took me for granted. This morning she said she appreciates that even though I am sick (I am fairly certain it is a consequence of my own stress) I still drove her to work. I told her that those words are so powerful because I always felt she didn't recognize it and even though I am happy to do these things during fights I would throw it in her face. Or perhaps I would use it to punish her in some other way. She nodded and said she did and still does at times take me for granted.

While I was taking care of her today she said I don't have to do it I said you do the same for me and she said no I was mean to you. I suggested that perhaps her not being able to drive scared her so that when I am sick she would feel helpless.

I know...I know a lot of analysis...I am curious to see how MC goes tomorrow.

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Is your wife American? If so, why doesn't she have a license? Unless you live some place like NYC where you don't need one, it can be extremely isolating.


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2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
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Yes she is American. She has a fear of driving. When she was younger she got behind the wheel and there was an accident. One of the challenges has been that when she has been asking whether or not she should drive I focused on her anxiety and told her I could do it.

==
So something else that I keep running into. So she mentions how talking to OM is a source of relief and comfort but I am not entirely sure how truthful she is. Last night she seemed to suggest there was an attraction there and even said "why cannot I like both of you for different reasons" and this morning she said it was as a friend.

I don't want to validate her hanging out with OM but I also don't want to force an ultimatum because clearly she feels more trapped.

It doesn't help that today is our session and she is always extra anxious before a session and on Fridays. Because she acts anxious I probably respond in similar fashion because she is looking for flaws in my armor and nice guy behavior.

But she cannot figure out how she really feels about me if she is stressed and anxious. Last night I said something how I think she is a wonderful person and she said "No I am not, because I insert censored word another guy and despite you asking me to stop talking to him I cannot do that and you think he is a bad guy and that makes me a bad person because only a bad person would be with a bad guy."

I want to tell her well if you essentially make a choice between us it will probably reduce your anxiety. But I kept my mouth shut.

Let's hope the MC can get us another step forward.

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Tobias,

My wife, now XW, had a special friend (the OM). We were at Disney World when I first discovered they'd been texting each other all day long even though we were on vacation with my sons. I hit the roof; I actually told her I wanted a divorce while we were walking up the ramp to the monorail. I was one livid SOB.

That night, after the boys went to bed, my wife and I talked for several hours. She convinced me that I was just jealous and that her friend was just a friend. I bought into the nonsense; I was an idiot.

We eventually went to an MC and the MC became my IC. This is what the IC said to me, "Listen, this is how marriage works; if one spouse doesn't like the other spouse's friend, then the friend has to go."

That's a quote worth memorizing. Don't let your wife sell you on the friend nonsense. The friend needs to go.

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Tobias,

I agree with doodler. I know that it is "easier" to pretend like you are still a couple, but basically what you are doing is saying that you are OK being in a open M. If you are OK with that, then nothing wrong with what you are doing, however, if you are not OK with an open M, then why are you still thinking / acting like she's your W when she has a boyfriend?


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
10/31/16 - We sold house
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I agree that the friend needs to go. But any time I mention it she says she feels more scared and trapped. I recognize that this is something she has to address in IC but she does feel isolated. A mutual friend who she had told that she was thinking about leaving me told her he respects me and so he couldn't help her move out if she decided to do that.

From what I understand my approach should be not to act overly lovey-dovey but to also show that there is a smooth path back if she chooses to take it. The more I disengage the less smooth I make that path.

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Originally Posted By: Tobias
...show that there is a smooth path back if she chooses to take it. The more I disengage the less smooth I make that path.


Tobias,

My original intent was just to reinforce the fact that your wife apparently has an inappropriate relationship with another man. But, you mentioned a "path back" to the relationship; your wife hasn't suffered any loss so she doesn't need a smooth path back, she's already where she wants to be.

If you had this conversation with your wife, "You need to choose me or the other man; I'm unwilling to stay in the marriage as long as you have a boyfriend. I would be very happy if you would chose me and I'm willing to do what needs to be done to save our marriage, but you have to be committed to the marriage as well." That establishes a boundary, the consequences of not heeding the boundary, as well as a smooth path back.

In my opinion, it's just as simple as that, but our emotions get the best of us so we get caught-up in a silly game of pursuit and distancing.

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Excellent advice, doodler!


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W filed:7-17-17
(5 months of in-house separation hell)
W moved out:1-6-18
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I had that conversation and she called that blackmail.

Also she CLAIMS that the inappropriate element has stopped and is now a 'regular' friendship. I find that hard to believe but at the same time there were legitimate concerns about me that I need to work on.

I know she needs to move out. But I am terrified that this will solidify her decision that she is better off alone and stay in that fog. But then the time we DO spent together is usually good.

I just feel I am damned if i do and damned if I don't. And as to what is easier on me? I don't even know.

Everything she is asking from me in terms of what she needs from me is what a M is about: intimacy, communication. She talks about the future (and then catches herself and says she is scared because she doesn't know what will happen). It's like she wants to go for it and then gets scared and thinks of all the times it went wrong in the past.

I am terrified to leave next weekend but I know I need to go.

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The fact that she called that blackmail is a big red flag for me. It's not blackmail at all, and it's not even unreasonable. It's you standing up for yourself, but letting her know you also want her back.


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BD:4-23-17
W filed:7-17-17
(5 months of in-house separation hell)
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Your W basically just guilt tripped you with that blackmail nonsense. Twll her it's about respect. And that it's inappropriate to still be in comm unication with OM. At this point you need to make sure she respects you or things won't work out anyways.


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I appreciate the concern and I do have some of it myself. But let me just sent you verbatim what she wrote to me an hour ago.

"BTW last night when I was telling you that it felt good to have someone say those things to me I was talking about how the initial appeal happened, not presently"

"I kind of am apprehensive because when I try to open up to you, you act calm and then at a later time you start saying things that seem like you're using my words against me"

(the second one is me basically on here when I said I took a step backwards or whenever OM is being brought up. This specific instance was what I wrote about earlier about what she said last night and I didn't really say anything this morning other than that it is clear she is confused about what she wants and what his role is in her life)

"When I think about living alone or staying somewhere alone I really do think about being away from literally everyone"

and

"And yeah I do think about hanging out with him again but that's because I want to be his friend. And I know I [censored] a lot up and there's a lot I regret because he really does have the potential to be a good bro"

I know she could be playing me. I know she could be wanting to eat her cake too. I know all of that but tell me that a) she isn't at least trying (even with me having some emotional moments) and that b) she isn't trying to be honest and open in communication and that c) she really seems to be torn and confused.

And here is a follow up. She complained that she has no say over finances (I tried to get her involved but either I ignored her or she changed her mind) and with her not having her own bank account (she had poor credit when we met) I figured this would help her feel more empowered and less controlled (even though she has access to all accounts and credit cards but I guess it's not the same)

ME: "anyway I hope you like this sheet i made with finances and working on the chores one. I don't want to decide all that alone but I figured I would make a start"

HER: "Yes that sounds great. We can set aside time at home to work on it..."

ME: "one thing I have really enjoyed lately is working as a team. I always missed that."

HER: "I am just so scared for many reasons right now and I don't want to make any fear-based decisions"

HER: "Yes I like teamwork a lot better"

Am I really that blind or crazy?

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Quote:
"When I think about living alone or staying somewhere alone I really do think about being away from literally everyone"

I've heard that twice in my life. It was lies both times.

She might be torn and confused, but I seriously doubt she's being honest. Her wanting to keep OM around is a big problem.


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I'll quote the conversation I had with my XW the day after her 40. birthday party, 4 months before BD.
Me:"why did you sit him at the table next to ours directly facing you when you know I'm not comfortable with him"
Her:"come on, it was a coincidence, he is just a friend"
Me:"I'm really not comfortable with that friendsship"
Her:"how about you and "female coworker" (whom I go to lunch with at Burger King one a month in a group of four and exchanges maybe two texts with per month when gossiping about people from work and other silly stuff), I'm not comfortable with her... "
Me:" come in, its just "female coworker". I don't even consider her female. She's just one of the guys, not even a sexual being in my eyes"
Her:"exactly the same way i feel about OM"

Who is now banging her on a regular basis (I assmume...maybe they are playing bingo every night LOL)

The friend HAS to go....


M:46 WXW:40
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Originally Posted By: EastTN
Quote:
"When I think about living alone or staying somewhere alone I really do think about being away from literally everyone"

I've heard that twice in my life. It was lies both times.

She might be torn and confused, but I seriously doubt she's being honest. Her wanting to keep OM around is a big problem.


I agree my W is currently trying to sell me on this bs excuse as well. The I suddenly just need my own space to be alone. More like a space to have sex with OM without me being in the way. Please don't fall for the he's just a friend now line.


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Maybe you are right but it doesn't feel that way. She is afraid, that much is true. Now her keeping OM around even as a friend isn't something I really CAN or WANT to support.

I don't know why she would go out of her way to clarify what she meant the night before. I have shown the messages to a few friends who know about the PA and as such I am not disclosing anything new and they were initially thinking she was playing me. They see an attempt to try after reading these messages. They agree that OM needs to be out of the picture.

For the most part she has respected my boundary by saying he would never come to our home. She herself introduced another rule a few weeks ago that she wouldn't hang out unless we were in a good place or if we had a bad experience. Now she could be lying and when I leave next weekend have him over but that would require a level of heinousness which if she really wanted that she could just go out for drinks and go to a hotel OR just move out. Sure it would cost her money but it would be an escape. She wouldn't go to MC and now setting up IC. The counselor also said after we left on Saturday she was worried and almost called us to see if we were okay.

My W for the most part has followed through on the "what am I contributing to this R" to the point where I wonder if SHE maybe started looking online for ways (she really does try to only exchange positive and happy emotions except when I pushed too hard because of OM...but even after that it is HER who tries to get the balance back to peace). Or maybe she really just trust this counselor. She continues to check herself when anger or resentment pops up. She has been honest for the most part about wanting to be in love but simply being too scared. If it was all about wanting to continue a PA with OM she would have found ways to do so. If she is trying to have two relationships she is making it very hard to add another R to do that equation because she suggested we cook some meals together. (Remember: she said at some point that she told OM that I probably wouldn't even care that she was with him. I know.. WW lie and deceive...but she truly DID feel I thought she was ugly and unattractive.)

Not that there isn't a small voice of doubt in my head BUT if I listen to that voice I wouldn't be honoring DR and this board because it's about doing 180s and validating her concerns and detaching and GAL. If I keep being too focused on OM and what W does or wants to do I am not doing that. Sure, I shouldn't be validating the R either but she knows I rather have her not do that.

This morning she brought up something that happened yesterday. Normally she would have yelled at me. She would have confronted me last night but instead she said she assumed I was just excited to be with friends and she shouldn't resent me for something (it was something small... I was playing music, she had mentioned earlier how her migraine was acting up...I turned it off but when a friend came by I got too excited to show him an artist that I use in the classroom and he has a similar teaching approach...we had a few drinks so I didn't recognize immediately W migraines were being brought up...about 20 minutes in I realized what I was doing and turned the TV off and actually also apologized this morning. )

Does this mean W is madly in love with me? No. Does this mean I can lower my guard? Hell no! Does this mean W is giving it a genuine effort to NOT add further pain and hurt into the R? Absolutely. Does this mean W is recognizing how she resented me more and more over the years and now wants to stop destructive patterns? I absolutely think so.

One of two things will happen. The more these positive changes continue W will recognize that her fears may not come to fruition and want to spend more time with me. She will stop texting all the time (not just OM, but her friends...who she felt needed to become her support mode because I kept saying I wasn't her therapist rather than recognizing she just needed someone to listen to). She will likely let go of OM. I am fairly certain the MC in her IC session with wife will bring that up. Either way with both of us wanting to leave the State there won't be a reality of a PA. OM won't leave (I would be shocked unless everything I read and everything I know about him is a lie and he suddenly changes his personality and approach). Even in the meantime the ONLY times W could hang out with OM if she wanted to would be really late in the evenings.

Does this seem fast? Absolutely and this will take a LOT OF TIME. But I do think a few things worked in our favor here:

- I made changes before discovering the PA
- I validated her concerns (I think a few folks on here early on said that was different from other cases). In turn SHE has validated a lot of my concerns and not just nodded but actually CHANGED her behavior.
- For the most part I have been consistent for over two months in major changes. The BIG one is impulse and emotional control (read through all these pages and you will see that one pop up)
- The PA happened and continues at least as an EA (or actual friendship I am not dismissing that) BUT if OM worked regular hours she would have been sleeping with him daily. She would have gone on dates etc. So when I discovered it I may have been at a much bigger disadvantage if they had done a lot more.
- W. DID deal with emotional distress of having the PA and recognized before I discovered it that something wasn't right. (this is my gut telling me that but also based on seeing her be VERY emotional and express suicidal ideation and "not feeling anything")
- W. after I discovered the PA almost instantly wanted to make sure it had nothing to do with me. She has been almost consistently positive about my value and worth as a man and person. In other sitch I see a lot of anger and resentment and ridicule of the LBS.

Again. Maybe I am delusional. Maybe I am trying to be too optimistic. Maybe all of these positives only show she just doesn't want an explosive fight. But even that is a positive take away. Maybe, she is afraid of her image being tarnished and people judging her. That is certainly a thought that popped up in my head. But that risk won't disappear. If we split up and even if it is amicably people will ask questions. So maybe she is making these positive moves reluctantly but you know maybe she will slowly come to realize that our R wasn't that bad or at least can be a whole lot better. She has already seen what a different H I can be. She may be sad and upset it took me so long...but she is curious enough to stick it out so far.

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Tobias,

Two things that I absolutely think (pardon the oxymoron) will help you immensely:

1. Wear a foil hat so that you'll stop mind reading.
2. Get out an GAL. Get sweaty, dirty and stinky-nasty and have the time of your life.

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hahaha you're right about the mind reading.

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He's right about the GAL, too... it'll help calm your mind if nothing else.


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oh absolutely. It's why I am going on the trip and why I have been able to get back and focus on work a bit more.

It continues to be mostly pleasant interactions with W. A few times she has pointed out something that in the past would have led to a huge fight because one or both of us got defensive and aggressive. Now W. instead lets it go and brings it up a bit later.

So the way I see this there are two options: W is cake eating and just wants a smooth ride until she can leave OR she is really opening up.

I don't really believe she would go the extra mile if she still just wants to leave but I suppose it's an option.

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I did encourage her one more time to finally open her own bank account. I did this for three reasons:

a) she really DOES need to have one for herself
b) it was something she said it would empower her and the MC said of the four things she listed that one is the easiest to do
c) it confronted MY fear that she is only staying now because she feels trapped. Now that she has an account the longer she stays the more relaxed I will feel

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Not much to update so far. But my trip is coming up this Friday and I cannot say I am not a little anxious. For the most part I am excited to go because a) my W says she knows how I feel and this will give her an opportunity to be honest with herself. I will have no way of knowing if they hung out or if she had an interest to do so BUT I think I will be able to see her reaction when I come back Sunday. and B) she does need rest, time and space. She says she needs to be bored and if she wants to do something there are other people she can hang out with. Again, don't believe what she says I know...

She had her first IC session on Saturday and is going back this coming Saturday when I am gone.

After her session she took me up on the idea to go buy a new lock for the front door and we did. In the store we spoke about other home improvement projects as well as making the place look nicer and more enjoyable to live in (and while not vocalized we both want to sell the house and move out of state). I am a little confused as she hasn't recommitted yet to me but in some ways it feels like she has flipped a switch. She IS scared but I do think she is trusting more and more that I too flipped a switch and take our problems seriously. I am giving her what SHE needs from me at the moment and she is giving me what I need from her as much as she can.

Don't worry I am not declaring victory anytime soon.

For the most part we have been peaceful towards each other which NEVER happened for more than a week, maybe two weeks tops over the past decade (if there have been longer peaceful moments it may have been a month...not saying there were explosive fights but things that were dumb and blown out of proportion by both of us). We both recognize warning signs. We both take turns in fact stepping away. So even if we won't survive I think we are both turning into better people.

She has not mentioned OM or wanting to hang out since last Tuesday (the night before our session) although he came up indirectly when we discussed my trip and she mentioned something how she knows I am worried he is going to come over. In all honesty she hasn't been texting a whole lot compared to what it was the past few months. And often she actually tells me who is texting and what is being shared (she could lie I suppose).

Our level of warmth and closeness was high during the week and mellowed a bit over the weekend. We are both still sick and W had some stressful things at her work on Friday afternoon. I tried to validate her experiences and listening to her but I started making suggestions to her. She was a little upset and then later apologized. But here is the thing: SHE has been the one making an effort to get back to a friendly state almost immediately after something like that has happened lately.

She has also been wanting more and more to do things together. And she is suggesting things we can do together. So I keep coming back to thinking that she at least is trying to implement what the MC is telling us to do. Maybe she does this to fool me...but if I start doubting that then I only drive myself crazy. Heck, maybe she thinks she is fooling me and then through the continued positive interactions recognizes we may have a future.

I recognize this is a marathon and this won't be fixed soon but I do see small improvements. Would I want her to say: OM is out of the picture? Absolutely. But I think she is working towards that...or is still figuring out if they can be friends. At this point I don't want to push it. I am also thinking that she has been doing some soul searching and is now saying how she hates how she knows I am devastated he came over to our home. So she is feeling pretty bad about herself. I hope that this weekend we can take some progress by not being under the same roof.

Some of this has been awkward and we both said that. Like we recognize we need to communicate better. Sometimes we assume things and then act and the other person gets upset. We both do it at different moments. But we stick with the plan from MC and we are doing more things together. At the end of the day I am THRILLED to be at that phase right now.

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(not much to update..yet I wrote a book chapter lol)

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Tonight is our next MC session.

My W was have an anxiety attack two nights ago and she was so relieved I was able to calm her down. Yesterday she mentioned how she and two colleagues are going for happy hour on Thursday and I mentioned maybe she could get her colleague to give her a ride to work and I can stay home and she said...I can but I have been really enjoying our morning ride to campus together. She added "it feels like we are finally also working on that friendship part that we never really developed...heck we never even had a proper date". She added "and I have really been enjoying doing things together".

Again, don't believe anything she says but half of what she does right. She has been talking about this weekend and how she needs to get some rest and how she wants to maybe hang out with some people. OM's name is not mentioned. If she is manipulative and trying to get me to think by her saying other people's names that she can sneak out and hang out with him than of course that is possible but it just doesn't fit with her other actions.

Something I need to watch for is that now that she is opening up more and more I run into two problems of the past:

- I didn't always listen to her and offered suggestions. It sometimes feels like I am not authentic to always say that [censored], that is frustrating. Sometimes I phrase it into a question: "is this why you are upset because..." or "how do you feel about what you just described". She seems to enjoy that I ask questions. But sometimes it goes on and on and on so it is easy for me to start offering suggestions.

- Because she now is back to sharing stories with tons of asides and other comments that I THINK are not relevant and so sometimes I slip up and interrupt her. I think that happens because I switch from the person that I am trying to be now: on my guard and trying to not pressure her and her excitement in talking to me again switches my thinking into wanting to add to the conversation. (clearly I like to speak...as you can see in these very short posts).

The other issue is that I am trying to get her to stop thinking about how awkward some of our interactions are: like we are learning how to work as a team and we recognized that we sometimes speak different languages. She wants me to do A, and I assume it's B. It's awkward but also humbling and I am telling her that I appreciate her patience and her ability to recognize we need to work on that. And that the more we do this the more we will start to understand what is expected and we don't need to have follow up questions.

But I am feeling hopeful. I still desire her to be recommitting to me but I am also starting to accept that if this doesn't work out that I will be better if someone else enters my life. The thought saddens me as my W is amazing. In fact, I realize that I never was in love with her until very recently when she blossomed into a more self confident woman. What I thought I felt for her was affection and I enjoyed being with her but it wasn't love.

In turn she continues to develop herself and recognize that SHE needs to also be better in certain aspects.

Very humbling. But VERY glad my W is still in the same house and at least respects what the MC asks us to do. I don't know if it is because she really wants to or if she thinks it makes her end game smoother but I am deciding that I don't really care about it. If she wants to leave THIS version of who I am becoming than she is an idiot. Yes, I messed up. Yes, I made mistakes. Yes, it took me WAY TOO LONG to address this. But what I am addressing were the small things that made living with me so tough for someone like her.

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The MC session was interesting.

- MC said that while I clearly am making progress that I still operate from the rescuer mode (not false) and that I need to focus more on my needs (not false and I have been better at it but I frame a lot of what I have learned in connection with W.)
- MC said I need IC since I mention that while I am being better at patience and controlling impulses that she can help me with that
- Last week MC said she dislikes putting a time stamp on things but near the end said that while cost may be a factor that she thinks we need two more months of MC. (my W. pointed this out in the car that it was odd.. I replied that she may be doing it for a multitude of reasons but essentially to tell us to not expect a quick fix but also that she did say she has hope for us...which I felt was an odd comment as well for a MC to make)

One thing I have noticed, W is less enthusiastic during the sessions than at home...she validates (nods, verbal agreement) things I say and points to positive things that happened..but at home she is much more at ease and warm in that. There is a lot of reasons why this might be but I have realized that perhaps this is why I continue to doubt her sincerity which seems to be there but then she talks herself into seeing obstacles. HOWEVER, we are getting along better and we are working on things on our own. And the obstacles my W points out are things that are real.

So the trip tomorrow. I am trying to shut off the unhealthy thought that all she will do is have wild adventures with OM (who she hasn't seen for weeks now). But she may have already stopped talking to him. She may not even want to see him because she wants to not do something she knows that would hurt me. But that is ultimately the doubt I have: she is not the woman I married but in some ways in recent weeks she has shown more of those sides of herself. And she IS terrified of the financial reality of living alone. But if that is what is keeping her here why does she STILL want to interact with me, why does she still follow the tools and resources provided in the MC? I.e., why does she do more than the absolute minimum she can get away with? And when I start asking those questions I recognize I am over analyzing and driving myself nuts so I remain calm.

I feel good about going on the trip. I am not terrified. Yet I know this will be a test for us both.

And like we keep saying: this is a marathon. Essentially we are learning things that should have been fostered from the start.

There is progress but there is also doubt. I am trying to remind myself of what I type to others on here: take it day by day. Small steps.

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So the trip went alright. I had a great time and our MC encouraged us to have a communication plan which we ended up not deciding on but my W was the one calling me and trying to find moments where we would talk on the phone.

Could she have been hanging out with OM? Sure. Could she have been doing this to fool me? Sure. But when I left I knew she was in pain and wasn't feeling well and so when she ended up staying home on Saturday instead of go out with her coworkers I didn't think she was seeing him. In fact, she tried to communicate with me a few times throughout the night.

When I came back she had said how she missed me. Her actions are getting warmer and warmer towards me. I do have the urge at times to ask if she went NC as it really seems that way. But I know we still have things to work on. So I assume she will tell me that. But the positive interactions keep occurring. When there is a challenge or problem one of us recognizes it and stops it or addresses it. To me all of that is healthy.

On the trip I saw someone bring their new GF and I recognized little things as to what I was doing in the past (ignore her, walk away/ahead, not waiting for her) that made me project and say later to my friends how he might lose her if he isn't careful (turns out she had been dropping some signals to another friend). So I do think I am realizing more and more how I wasn't the perfect H or even in many ways an appropriate one. In turn it seems W has appreciated my growth and is now more and more working back to fully recommitting.

At this point I would like for her to say those words but it doesn't even really matter to me. We are having a good time and the more we do things together and not just act like good friends the better it seems to me. Like I told MC: if she is faking keeping the peace just to bide her time than that is her loss. But if that is the case I am learning skills as to how to work together, I am learning how to recognize when I need to listen rather than try to fix her problems, I am learning how to just have a good time rather than worry about little details that may be relevant but shouldn't be the first question. She sees more and more a side of me she hadn't seen or trusted that it was there.

She has been spending a few moments in the MBR but (this is dumb) her allergies act up in that room..we haven't had a moment to get the carpet some deep cleaning (probably dust and cat hair is intertwined in there)

There has been more talk about doing things together. Not necessarily overly romantic but I think we both recognize that we kind of skipped the fun parts: the dating, the developing a sound friendship. We sort of jumped straight into a business arrangement. We both also changed over the years so now we are just rediscovering who we are and how we fit together.

As to where we are? I don't know. But I don't think we are necessarily heading for a divorce as things have gotten a lot better. Does that mean we will be back in love? I think that's too soon, we both still have things to work on. But do I think she is giving it an effort? I would say she is doing that.

Looking forward to the next MC session on Wed evening (and then we both have IC on Sat).

I fully realize that there might a major set back right around the corner.

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That major setback WAS around the corner but we have to see how much of a setback it was.

My W is really upset about things at work. (So much that the MC picked up on it and in her IC apparently discussed how trauma bonding is what my W needs to avoid). She also isn't feeling well. So when she gets snappy I call her out on it but then she gets upset and says she is not angry. It went further and she said "this is why I want a divorce" and "I can barely tolerate you".

I think what may have triggered things was that our 7 year wedding anniversary is coming up on August 4th and I asked her how she wanted to approach that day. And she said you keep talking about wanting a new marriage so why would I want to celebrate the day we fought?

A few days prior she had suggested going to Asheville, NC that weekend. So that confused me since she clearly was thinking about doing something.

We need a new blender and we got a relatively expensive one so I suggested we could use that. But that is something I suggested in the past that something we needed for the home which was a relatively big purchase would be what could be applied. So that was dumb on my part.

Later in the car ride to work she said we both said things we didn't mean and that exhaustion and stress played a role but it did reinforce my doubt that she HAS BEEN faking it. And she thanked me for getting her to work.

So like I have been saying... things are going well but it's not a complete "I want to make things work" and comments like the one this morning would in the past have been reasons why I would let it escalate. So I am dismissing those as her true feelings BUT I am also not going to ignore it completely.

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She gets snappy and you call her out on it?

That's not working. Stop doing that.


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You're right. It's just that sometimes hearing complaints about work gets overwhelming. Our MC talked about a temp gauge and not giving our power away to others by being that affected and so I just wanted to say hey good morning and talk about something more pleasant.

It was a major issue for us in the past. I felt like a therapist hearing her complain about everything and everyone. But she really does let it affect her mood the rest of the day. And that affects the way we interact. And when we are right in a very fragile state I just wish she would take some ownership of how much that affects how she interacts with me. But somehow when she is frustrated from work it starts to lead to comments about things I do wrong (and more so things from the past).

But as I wrote in earlier posts: a lot of the time lately we have been interacting very pleasantly and been doing a lot of things together.

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It seems like w likes it when you listen...do more of that...no unsolicited opinions or trying to fix her problems...just listen. If you find your mind wandering or getting bored tell her that you need a 5 minute bathroom break...and re focus and listen some more.


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2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
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The thing is I wasn't even offering opinions.

I will see how the evening goes. One sign of progress is how quick we both recognize something is about to escalate (or in this morning did escalate) and we sort of go back to a neutral spot.

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On a different note, I am so glad we are seeing a counselor. And that W has IC (I will start mine on Saturday to deal with...hahahahaa impatience) but I know I shouldn't be her therapist but I often feel like I am forced into that role by her.

But the counselor asking her about her work and bringing up trauma buddies might be a slow but steady progress on that. I just don't think she should let it affect herself so much. I hear it on skype, text or facebook messenger from her, in the car ride home, and then at home...in the morning she focuses on it. I have been validating her feelings and keeping suggestions out of it. But her unhappiness to be in Florida mixed with her thoughts about work really affect her mood. Imagine how she then feels when she sees me or has to think about our MR and whatever problems we have! smile

In many ways what I really need help with is better reading the situation while also doing my 180s. So for example, one issue was she felt I wasn't interested in sex (I felt she wasn't interested ironically). Lately, I have been expressing that more. Sometimes she responds positively but sometimes she is tired or in pain or not in the mood (which is fine) but if that goes on for a few days AND there is a lot of stress about things that need to happen (at work for W or chores in the home) I too often don't stop and think to recognize that she IS stressed and may be anxious and if she isn't feeling well she doesn't need me to be right there in her face so to speak. But the challenge is too that she often asks me to rub her feet or ankles and usually she then initiates further intimacy from that. If she didn't ask me to do that I would be sitting in a different room or doing something else.

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Had a good evening and morning with W. We talked a bit further as to what happened and while reflecting on this before going to bed I came to the realization that not everything W. does has to be a reflection of how she feels about me. I knew that already. But I also realized that after a few days of not much coming from W. that I attempt to dismiss that conclusion.

But and here is the other big moment that I think several of you have pointed out, my W. probably pointed it out and for sure the MC: before she can fully want to recommit and work on US she has to first work on herself. Just like I have work left to do. In many ways I knew that. I just hadn't internalized it nor did I accept its true meaning.

My W. feels like she is running out of spoons (any introvert on here will recognize that language) and so ANY interaction with me causes her exhaustion when she needs the time to recharge. Sometimes she just wants me in the same room. But of course while I let her initiate the conversation most of the time I become very chatty.

In the car ride this morning we spoke about how we both love seeing green and trees and while moving won't fix things that being happy in the place you live is important. Neither of us really likes the sun here in Florida. We both like to be outside but we barely are outside because we are immediately drenched in sweat and my W deals with major migraines. But we cannot move immediately so we have time to further develop the counseling and hopefully in a few months we can see where we could be going. I still expect a least a year of real work on US.

My W. last night said I look good, I look younger like "you are looking like the old Tobias again". I look less stressed she says. Part of it is certainly compared to when I first got here (and the month before that) I AM more relaxed. I sleep better. Mostly it's because W and I are interacting better and we are going through counseling. I also heard that colleagues here want me to become department chair because they trust me. On the other hand, I think while my W has regained some of her respect for me that she still is working on that. Me giving her space, not always being in her face, not always needing communicating, not always needing to address a problem WHEN it happens rather than take a break has allowed her to relax a bit and notice that while I certainly am taking care of myself more in recent weeks that a lot of what she felt were reasons she was unhappy with me can be fixed.

Again if she is faking it. If she is just learning skills to be with the next person. If she is really not interested in staying with me beyond that now she can afford things on both of our salaries. The worst thing could be true BUT I have learned so much about what I needed to do. I love for her to remain in my life as my W but if not, someone else out there will appreciate it.

She is also working on her independence. She still needs to start driving lessons but the more independent she is the less trapped she will feel. Once that feeling is gone she will realize that while I may have said things and done things that gave her valid reasons to be scared that I am not some abusive controlling husband. On my part I am addressing the legitimate reasons she felt that way. I am comfortable saying in some ways I was a abusive controlling husband. I hate that it was that way but I no longer focus on my justifications and explanations that may be true but they shouldn't be present in a healthy relationship.

So in my IC on Saturday I am going to bring this all up (unless it comes up in the MC tonight) as there clearly is a link here with me being impatient.

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It's kind of appropriate this thread is nearly at 100.

I will try to keep it short (emphasis on try)

MC sessions went alright.
- W. brought up the fight from two days ago
- MC suggested we needed about six more weeks of MC and probably longer IC. When she asked how we felt my response was that the six weeks sound good but that probably we would need to assess if that is the right end period. W agreed and said that she still has fears and still has resentment to deal with (I saw that as a good sign. SHE brought it up to the MC so the fear she is faking it is diminished because obviously in the IC the counselor will discuss this with her and the worst that can happen is when she is over the resentment that she isn't in love. I would hate that but I can accept it...at least the counselor knows a big block.
- I brought up the wedding anniversary and when counselor prompted her W said she never had happy thoughts of this day (which I almost brought up her lovely smile and giggling during the actual vows...but she isn't wrong that we did fight that day so she is focusing on the bad)
- MC suggested that we can do something to create a new memory. W immediately said she loves that idea. MC said do something silly maybe a minion cake but then W said she also likes the idea of going over the top and dressing up nicely and going to a fancy restaurant (this tells me kind of she is actually trying and may actually still be in love but there are things we need to work on). MC said you could even pick a different day. It's funny my W suggested going over the top because I had a crazy idea to propose to her (I never actually did that) but I won't since it's too early. But I do wonder if maybe something like a promise will work but that doesn't sound right either. She needs actions not words.
- I told MC that the reason why I brought up the anniversary was because I missed so many big moments for my W where I thought I was there for her but now I recognize I messed up and I didn't want to add another.
- Counselor pointed out I still frame a lot of what I say with "she" and that I occasionally slip into rescuer mode. This is true. It's just this is how I have always operated.
- MC suggested that we work on a 24 page worksheet over these weeks and that part of that deals with self forgiveness. I told her that I can more easily forgive W but that forgiving myself is much harder as that seems too easy and while I have accepted that I made mistakes I rather focus on not adding new mistakes. She said that is very common. It's especially hard knowing that I was in many ways (I almost typed some...) controlling.
- Something interesting that I clearly don't have a context for because it happened in W's IC: MC said that W was worried about pursuing empowering things and that her independence would come at the cost of me. I had a similar fear that while I want my W to be independent and empowered that I did fear it would be closer for her to leave.

After the session we went to the same restaurant that we went to after the first counseling session. It's as if we are doing a new tradition which is good. My attempt has been to do new things with her that are enjoyable. So that when she thinks of topic x, y, z or situation a,b,c, that the latest data input has been joyous rather than what we have had in the past. Perhaps it's manipulative but my attempt is not to suddenly stop being nice.

- W brought up that she still has fears because in recent weeks I had explosive moments. So I sighed inside and brought up OM. I hadn't talked to her about him in a while. I told her to put herself in my shoes and think how she would if I had sex with a woman and she found out and was hurt by that how she would feel that I would still talk to her. She said that they don't talk that much (which really does seem true based on what I have seen at home..) and that he offered to leave her alone and that she needs to focus on working on herself. This made me reinforce that the more I don't give her space the less likely she will feel different.
- W brought up that the counselor saying six weeks felt a bit like pressure as if she had to make a choice. I told her, well she also said that we would visit twice a month for a bit and then once a month. She said she feels like things are nice now but we have a referee to sort of interfere when things would go out of hand and that we perhaps keep things inside. I told her but you aren't faking when you are showing affection to me right? She said no. So I told her that she has shown so much affection lately and that if I am keeping anything inside it's those thoughts that would normally occur and would cause an argument. Now I just try to be more patient and THINK before I speak. But her fear is still an issue. So six weeks is a pretty long time for me to be even more consistently calm.
- I spoke to my mom on Skype earlier that day and told W that they have a lot of love for her. Note: When I first told them my W wanted a divorce their first thought was OM. I didn't know she had one so I denied. It never came up again and I never felt it was important for my parents to know about this. Especially IF we recommit my parents need to not be an issue. But my W doesn't think so and said they call me a gold digging bitch. I said they never said that but clearly she is worried about how they perceive her.
- She said when my parents visited (they live abroad in the country I am from) she wasn't feeling well but also didn't expect to see them again and she didn't want to fake lovey dovey around them as she felt it would be disrespectful. This was in 2014 right after we bought the home. It's just amazing how I knew she wasn't happy but I never knew just HOW unhappy she was and she DID stay with me for a long time.
- The wedding anniversary came up and she said probably the breaking point was last year when it seems I didn't put any thought into it and just googled "six year wedding anniversary". I got her a silver necklace with a 6 and I knew she didn't like silver but I don't know why I went for it but I felt it would be funny. Reality is: I have always been worried about what to get her. Now I realize she is dropping a lot of hints and I just didn't listen. But I did put a lot of time looking for things.

So yes, similar obstacles: she is still afraid, she is working on her independence, she is addressing her depression and mood, she is working on dealing with colleagues. She says she isn't committed to saving the marriage (although she hasn't expressed those words in a while now....instead she says she still feels the same way and has fear) but her actions tell me a different thing. Affection isn't always coming from me first. She initiates a lot and she clearly is trying to do what the MC encourages us to do.

It almost seems as if she has slowly created this very dark image of what our M was like and she is slowly realizing it may have not been all that bad and that we actually CAN have a lot of fun and CAN work together and that she CAN have space and that I CAN be calm. The challenge is now switching to ONLY now and today rather than think back and think about missed opportunities. That is why I am glad she brought up resentment.

I remain hopeful but I cannot wait until W says she is recommitted. But her actions so far are more meaningful than her words. I also cannot wait to do a recommitment ceremony as I can then fully use my new found arsenal of being an amazing H. She sees a lot of pieces of what I can do and I have been very consistent. Like when I have left for a trip or she left I have done something to surprise her. None of it has been romantic but I have tried to do something meaningful and change it up. She has really loved all those moments (her love language is gifts).

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final post in this thread. Cadet my next post will be a new thread so unless there are responses I will start it myself after this one!

Had some positives and negatives.

Positive:
- W validated how she took me for granted for doing things for her and that made me so happy that I wanted to tell her that in the car ride home that I appreciate how she recognizes these things BUT

Negative:
- In the car ride home she started talking about work and I had a thought that I brought up and shouldn't have but she got snappy and I got defensive and it kind of went on. I tried to de-escalate but W kept quiet. The thing was the thought was something I knew but W insisted that I didn't...it wasn't even relevant just a rare occasion of a topic where I got excited about some connection I had. Dumb on my part.

Neutral:
- near the end of car ride she brought up how she doesn't just want to complain about work but that she needs someone who can validate her feelings and she sees me as that person.
- She said I should see it as positive that she tried to explain what was upsetting to her. Which is true. (I need to work on letting go of her recognizing that she can be upsetting me too...I can only control myself and I do occasionally slip out of that).

Rest of evening was mostly meh. We did spend time together. We processed it some more. She said don't beat yourself up so much. She also said "this just seems like a lot of work" and later said we both have things to work on. That this is one of those setbacks that occasionally happens. Not very affectionate but not distant either. She was talking to her friend who is a counselor and maybe that influenced how she acted later on and this morning.

This morning she was about to blame me for something not being in the laundry. I just stayed out of it. She closed the bathroom door and came out and said: that wasn't your fault. I closed the door because I was about to go into victim role and blame someone else for something I should have done. I told her that was very nice of her to recognize that. She talked a bit more about struggles at work and I just validated and listened. The car ride over she was quiet but did thank me several times for doing that.

She has a retreat at work and there is a lot of stress there so she probably did have more anxiety about that and was impatient with me that caused the incident. I will bring it up in my IC tomorrow. She is of course also thinking about it being close to the weekend and that our wedding anniversary is coming up soon.

But it is soooo fragile. When it's good it's really good, but one little thing and it seems to lead to an explosion inside of her. Maybe i am doing things I am unaware of. But it's a MAJOR obstacle. I feel that she easily turns into a snappy mood and gets mean towards me but of course she is trying to convince herself that she is better off alone.

Or maybe she is selfish (she has said that about herself) and things have to go on her schedule: so when she needs me she is around. But the counselor has nodded when I said that before W can work on us she has to work on herself so I take that as I will accept it for now since W does make an effort to spent time with me and not just when she feels like it.

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