Hi everyone, I am new to this forum. I am going to try to be clear and succinct. I will fail miserably at both so please ask for clarifications.
For years I neglected to take seriously the problems with my behavior in the marriage. Some of it was me not being able to enjoy small moments (I am always planning for the future, and have in fact recently managed to get the retirement package swell for both of us and now when I need to sign...I am trying to delay that process as I don't know if financially it still makes sense for myself on one salary... I am also always focused on chores). I didn't appreciate alone time and what it meant to W. I was bad with gifts and always seemed to mess up (her love language is gifts, mine is service). When the last time we had an explosive fight she came back and unlike other times we didn't seem to reconcile. I went into a full on let's fight for this marriage mode which let her to laugh at it. But I also addressed several behavioral issues. I became less of an angry driver, I focused more on listening to her rather than trying to fix challenges, I respected her alone time... I bought all sort of gifts and surprises. But it all seemed to fall on deaf ears. She said it was nice and she appreciated it but she was simply not in love anymore and wished I addressed these sooner. I wrote her lengthy emails (seriously...the new war and peace was written by me in a night!) Some of it is ADD which I always had but felt I had under control...but since I put so many things in routines and I get anxious when things don't go according to plan. (She actually got me a fidget spinner after I mentioned that some of the problems come from that and how I am trying to calm down.)
After doing some internet research I came across several places that all suggested the LRT or variations thereof. It made sense to me to stop the chase since she is conflicted about her feelings and working on myself made a lot of sense.
But I don't know if that is the right step for me or if I should try to date her again. Last night she said she just wants to date and not married and my response was that I don't want this marriage either because let's face it we messed it up (I used a different word) but what I wanted was a new marriage. (True story: my planning nature had for months been working on getting a new vow ceremony with new ring for her in November when we would have known each other for 10 years..in August we will be married 7 years). She seemed surprised when I said that and replied saying that if we get back together it has to be different and cannot be what we had. So this is where I am conflicted with the LRT or if I should suggest a small date.
To give you an example of where it is conflicting. She was upset I never wanted to go to the theme parks (we live three hours from Orlando and I am the only driver) and in December I opened up one of the parks and she got excited and of course because I am an idiot I started doing the math in my head and it was getting too expensive. So earlier this week when I was out of state (her suggestion was that I deserved a trip) we spoke occasionally through text that it had been five years since we went to a park. When I got back home I suggested we go this weekend and her first answer was why and then I said well because it will be fun and I regret not going in December (she then brought up other previous incidents where I didn't act appropriately...and I agreed that I wasn't the best but am trying to change that). this was followed by me going to my bedroom (yes we now have our own bedrooms) and she followed me asking if I was okay I said yes I just want to go read. That is when the conversation on dating and marriage came up. But then this morning she mentioned how she has always wanted to go to a particular park. She says on the one hand she is done. But she also keeps bringing these things up (usually after I am just doing my own thing). So I don't know if I should push and do these things or instead just completely not react to it and continue the LRT.
This has been going on for years (our ups and downs but I was always a forgive and forget person in fights whereas W is more of the view that what you say in a fight is how you feel) but this latest phase began early to mid April. I have stopped saying ILY for over a week. I have stopped doing surprises (except when I came back from the trip to which she seemed glad I got it but a little sad because I didn't have to do that...my logic was to pull the 180...do the things I never did). I also hadn't always been good at messaging when I was away on trips and I purposefully sent her a good morning good luck today text.
As to how much time I have...I don't know. W wants to move on her own but has mentioned it will be very financially challenging. I don't know if it is a test to see if I change or if the financial worry is ALL that is keeping her but she has been more affectionate lately. Definitely trusting more in communication and the night before I left she even cuddled me in bed and suggested we could fool around. I was extremely tired and was very scared about rushing things so I just cuddled her and we dozed off and yesterday she was thankful we didn't move further. Two weeks earlier she said she misses intimacy of all sorts but that she is worried it will go back to same old routines. I desperately need hugs and kisses and confirmation that we can face this together but I understand she isn't there yet. She said yesterday that it has been nice these past few weeks without fighting but that it feels like we are old friends and not anything more. I told her that that is also because I respected her need for space. Hence my confusion as to what to do. I don't want to rush it...but I also know every situation is different and if there is a chance to heal together we should do it together as a team ASAP. But if that healing is more effective later I can wait...
W is also considering doing a PhD in a different state and has spoken in I terms as to what can be done to get there. She does use we but it's to fix up the house (that we own and need to sell) and still does nice things around the house (my love language is service and I take it as a small sign of victory that when I was gone she was cleaning). She also talks about what we need to get for me in terms of clothes. But it seems every time she gets closer she freaks out and goes back to being cold. It's why I stuck with not forcing ILY on her and keeping my distance (ending conversations before she does).
The biggest obstacle is that she is no longer real comfortable being naked around me. I think she is trying to create that as a boundary but that has been a shift. But then at other times she lays on her bed kind of waiting for me without saying that she wants to cuddle but almost hoping I say something (her eyes tell weird stories sometimes). I have been sticking with the LRT but like I said at times I am doubting the wisdom of that.
TL;DR It's clear she cares about me. She calls me very attractive and that we don't have to hate each other if the marriage is over. She has noticed positive changes. The LRT seems to work to some degree but the challenge is her seeing us as friends lately might confirm her decision that it's over. We do have a 10 year age difference but I never felt she was younger.
So any advice? (I ordered the MR book and it will arrive sunday...I ordered a cooking book just in case she sees the package as well and I recently began more cooking...something she had always wanted me to do.)
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Welcome aboard. Make sure you read the homework on Cadet's post.
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For years I neglected to take seriously the problems with my behavior in the marriage.
Have you told us all the issues of your behavior, or is there more?
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Some of it was me not being able to enjoy small moments (I am always planning for the future
What have you done to gain information in how to balance your focus on the future with appreciating life in the present?
Has your W complained about you focusing on your retirement? Has she ever accused you of pinching pennies for the same reason ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^?
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I am also always focused on chores)
I can completely relate. Maybe it's due to our personality types or how we were raised......IDK. Isn't it funny how we often marry someone who is complete opposite?
Have you considered setting personal goals to help you in these two areas? Have you ever talked to a counselor to seek some ways in how to balance these drives you have?
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I didn't appreciate alone time and what it meant to W.
Please clarify.
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I was bad with gifts and always seemed to mess up (her love language is gifts, mine is service).
What do you mean by "mess up"?
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When the last time we had an explosive fight she came back and unlike other times we didn't seem to reconcile. I went into a full on let's fight for this marriage mode which let her to laugh at it.
She came back? Did she leave you? What do you mean let her laugh at it?
You said you respected her alone time. She does not work a job, right? She stays at home? Why does she feel you were not respecting her alone time? How long has this been going on........about her alone time? Is it time after you come home from work, that she wants this "alone time"?
I just want to comment on doing 180's. You probably should not 180 everything. The most common mistake I see H's make in 180's is when he tries to take on the cooking and house chores of his SAHW. If you are the breadwinner and she is home all day......do not go home and do all her work too (unless there is something you haven't told us).
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but since I put so many things in routines and I get anxious when things don't go according to plan.
It's when things don't go according to YOUR plan. Isn't that more accurate? I'm not picking on you, b/c I use to be the same way..........especially if I had worked hard in preparing for the "thing" to happen. Others can see us as controllers or being selfish......or even immature b/c we don't like when things don't go the way we planned. This is something we can control, and if not then talk to a counselor.
Is it difficult for you to relax? Do you feel you should always be active? These issues can be very irritating for the spouse, especially if she is laid back and easy going.
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After doing some internet research I came across several places that all suggested the LRT or variations thereof. It made sense to me to stop the chase since she is conflicted about her feelings and working on myself made a lot of sense.
Has she said she wants a divorce? It sounds as if she wants the benefits the M provides, but she doesn't want you.
How long have you been sleeping in separate bedrooms? What started it?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks for your response. Let me try this quote function.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Have you told us all the issues of your behavior, or is there more?
I am fairly certain I covered it: not being able to enjoy the moment, freaking out over money, angry driving, not actively listening to her. The other issues that bothered here were the fact she didn't have her own bank account (bad credit) and I always just treated our money as being for the both of us...Recently I suggested she open her own bank account which is what she wants but she hasn't acted on it. She also has an anxiety driving but now says that me not supporting her to drive was controlling. I was worried about her anxiety so I didn't mind driving her places. Of course during fights I got weak at times and said well I am always driving you places.
Oh one thing I DID leave out as well was that I was always on my phone. I forgot because this past month I had actually put it away...it has been her for quite some time who is always on her phone. I pointed it out a year or so ago and she would get mad because I was doing it too (which wasn't always the case).
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What have you done to gain information in how to balance your focus on the future with appreciating life in the present? Has your W complained about you focusing on your retirement? Has she ever accused you of pinching pennies for the same reason ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^?
Well I have been okay with spending money. She hasn't complained about me focusing on retirement. But it is more when bills start adding up that I get anxious.. when it's on its own I am much easier accepting that things cost money. I regret sometimes saying that we couldn't afford her going on a trip to visit her friend (who we just visited a few months prior) and that I rather wanted to travel with her. The only other real issue that I became aware of is that when she had a health issue I would always investigate cost and how much it would cost and she saw it as me not caring about her. But previously she would point out how I am always going with her and how she appreciates it.
A few months ago she offered to work on a budget since we need to plan better and initially I was insulted because I was taking care of it and suddenly she wanted to be involved. I didn't immediately see she felt left out of these decisions.
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Have you considered setting personal goals to help you in these two areas? Have you ever talked to a counselor to seek some ways in how to balance these drives you have?
Well here is where I haven't had a chance to show change. I never bothered that I was doing these chores because I wanted to make it easier on her. She saw it as me doing it without letting her help. She suggested a chore wheel during the first weekend of our recent situation but either she was gone or I was gone. I have told her I am willing to just negotiate with her who does what rather than me doing it all at once. I guess this weekend will be a test of that.
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I didn't appreciate alone time and what it meant to W.
People sometimes need to be alone. I would text her or ask her questions. Or send updates. I can be a little puppy at times. She just needs a little time to recharge. If she would go with friends I would give silly updates like I just did laundry or sent her a dumb news story. I haven't done that this past month but of course we haven't been a real couple either.
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What do you mean by "mess up"?
Somehow I always forgot a card to commemorate the moment. I would also buy her things she said she wanted but I was never good at being spontaneous or just figuring out what she wants. At times when I DID try she would be sad and say I didn't get what she wanted. Of course she has close friends who are really good at it.
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She came back? Did she leave you? What do you mean let her laugh at it?
No this is what happens when I type quickly and don't reread what I wrote...She didn't leave...it was more that she responded with laughter... Essentially saying that she tried for years to get my attention and now I suddenly want to work on it was just funny to her.
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You said you respected her alone time. She does not work a job, right? She stays at home? Why does she feel you were not respecting her alone time? How long has this been going on........about her alone time? Is it time after you come home from work, that she wants this "alone time"?
We actually work at the same place and since she doesn't drive I am her driver. But yes, essentially at different moments she likes to have some recharge time.
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I just want to comment on doing 180's. You probably should not 180 everything. The most common mistake I see H's make in 180's is when he tries to take on the cooking and house chores of his SAHW. If you are the breadwinner and she is home all day......do not go home and do all her work too (unless there is something you haven't told us).
The 180 is more that I let her do her own things, I don't randomly make her bed or say ILY. Or that during arguments I just let it go now... I realized a big issue was that I wanted to be right which meant as much as I tried to not let it escalate I would get this dumb idea to be outsmarting her which of course never worked because all I said was hurtful things. I stopped doing that. I stopped contacting her for the most part and let her take the lead on that. I quit talking about the future other than suggest ways she can make it work financially to pursue her PhD.
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It's when things don't go according to YOUR plan. Isn't that more accurate? I'm not picking on you, b/c I use to be the same way..........especially if I had worked hard in preparing for the "thing" to happen. Others can see us as controllers or being selfish......or even immature b/c we don't like when things don't go the way we planned. This is something we can control, and if not then talk to a counselor.
No offense taken that is exactly what it is. I realized that lately. I wasn't trying to be controlling but in many ways I was controlling. Plus she used to be agoraphobic when we met and didn't really want to leave...she recently has gotten more friends and more confidence. I thought we enjoyed binge watching Netflix or just sitting and watching dumb tv but that seems to have suddenly shifted. I don't think I missed a comment on that but I wasn't always the best listener.
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Is it difficult for you to relax? Do you feel you should always be active? These issues can be very irritating for the spouse, especially if she is laid back and easy going.
Yes. But I am better at it. Funny thing was about two weeks into this situation we had concert tickets and we went and I even booked a hotel which was something she had always wanted us to do and I in fact requested late check out. I have actually been surprised how easy I am with just being a bit more patient. I would say I am impressed with myself but not unless she is back focused on us. Part of what I changed was sudden and such a change from almost seven years of marriage that I cannot blame her she is suspicious about me truly changing.
In fact, after I posted on here she blew up in my face about some comment I made saying I don't know much else about some event tomorrow and she said see there is the real you...it was all fakeness how you changed. I was really confused but I essentially said...well I don't know much else and I wasn't yet sure if I would go. At home she was a bit nicer but I decided I needed to go walk around the neighborhood so I left and she said my legs look nice and when I came back she was sleeping.
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Has she said she wants a divorce? It sounds as if she wants the benefits the M provides, but she doesn't want you. p/quote]
Yes. But and here is where I should have taken it more seriously. We have been fighting on and off over the years. I always saw it as our way of addressing issues but I now realize we never addressed it. She has said she wanted to leave me for several times and then would come back and apologize or just ignore the issue. These past few weeks she keeps changing what it is she wants. I went from a divorce to a trial separation to now living in the same home but acting like roommates. From saying she doesn't see how there is anything left to saying she feels she needs to be out of the home before we can get back together to yesterday saying if we get back together it has to be different. I am trying to figure out if her still living here is ONLY because financially there are some things she needs to work out or if she wants to just see how long I keep this "act" going. Which the answer is: forever since it makes me a better person and I am finally aware of what she seems to need.
[quote] How long have you been sleeping in separate bedrooms? What started it?
Well I am not an easy sleeper. I steal the blanket and kick her at night. On a king bed that is fine but a queen it's too small so she moved out long before this recent phase. It actually brought some spice back for a bit which was also odd because she seduced me only a few nights before all of this went down.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
I am impressed at how you have identified your behavior issues and are working to change for the better. In many cases the spouse sees sudden change and thinks it is a ploy to get her back. I suggest you not tell her you are a new person or have changed, etc. It takes time and much effort to change a lifetime (or adult) behavior. Although her words probably hurt, try to shake it off and don't go into "explaining". This is something she will just have to see for herself, after you've proven it several times.
That reminds of another common mistake I see in H's. They go into explaining things way too much. It's usually when the W makes some type of comment about him and he starts explaining. I don't think it helps his case, and many times he will use statements he draws from the forum........and it doesn't sound authentic to her. That's just a tip, for whatever it's worth.
I'm glad you told me about her working. Do you see each other at the work place?
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I left and she said my legs look nice and when I came back she was sleeping.
Is this a same sex M?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Haha no I am a man. But I am not a stereotypical male (although some of the traits slipped into my behavior: the yelling at tv during sports, yelling cars, the wanting to watch a game rather than do something with her). Initially I decided to stop watching sports but that was not authentic she even told me that I should watch games. So I did and have been way more calm watching them. But those things don't define me...it's more of an escape. But I did go a little overboard. And now I just want to do more things with her...but of course she isn't there (yet? ever?).
Her comments about legs was that they looked like they got some muscles. We both had been working on getting healthy, we ran a lot of races together and it was a blast but at some point she got injured. Initially I kept going to races until I realized she wanted to do them with me. I kind of gained some weight back which scared me and scared her. But she is also dealing with negative body issues and calls herself fat. But after my pants didn't fit and I had to buy new ones I made a commitment to get healthier again. So I got a fitbit and like so many things I got obsessive on walking every hour, sometimes even running around the living room. But she has been commenting all this time about how I look good and looks like I lost weight. And how she said even though she is not IL with me that she still cares about me.
Don't be impressed. I am very late in acknowledging my flaws. The thing was that I blamed her for being angry and not caring about me and not appreciating what I did. I was too blind. (The real irony is that I actually teach about marriage and relationships...but like I heard from a former student: we are often so good at helping others and not applying these things to ourselves. As I told my wife...that we messed this up over the years and she tried to address issues and I was always afraid to open up wounds and things seemed to always get back to a balance. Looking back I see so many small moments where I just didn't stop to think for a second. Things I recommend my students to do I didn't do. Or took for granted. Or just thought well this is how we work.)
Welp. Your warning for explaining things is on point....It didn't help that I wrote lengthy emails explaining that I was changing. I stopped doing that after her reaction to them was mostly cold and negative. She did say I hope you are doing it for yourself. I decided to write letters because I always seemed to say the wrong things. I haven't written anything for two weeks or so and not told her ILY. It's been extremely hard but by doing it I have seen the most progress in her seeking ME out. I did in these letters say that I know it will take time for her to see these changes and that she may never get there. But of course I now see that was still me trying to force a reaction. I was also worried that with no real intimacy that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy to confirm her feelings that we are friends. So I wrote that as well. She saw that as me asking for sex. But like I said I haven't done any of that in two weeks.
I have been trying to do my own thing (I suppose that is the GAL) but it is also hard. I am trying to not always clean up but sometimes it's just so easy to do it. Like this morning I decided to make us breakfast and she said I am a great cook and that it surprises her I am not confident in my own skills. But when I was doing that I cleaned up the sink and she commented that she could do those things too but just not right now. But I am trying to be authentic. Normally I would have already started brewing coffee for us to have ready for the coming week. I would have done some loads of laundry etc. She just seemed so exhausted and it really wasn't that much to do.
I am not the most patient person...so I think that is been the biggest shock to her that I probably do seem more patient. I am not convinced I fully succeed at it yet but I definitely have been more okay with just waiting.
So okay. Last night after I wrote my reply...it was about 11:30pm here and I saw she woke up from her nap (since we got home from work) and when I walked by and looked inside the room. She was a bit irritated (she did JUST wake up) and said: what? And I asked if she was hungry. She said yes and sighed. Since I didn't want to start an argument I walked away. She closed her door and then later asked if I wanted to order pizza since we hadn't eaten. After I placed the order. She suddenly opened her door and walked into "my" (hate saying that, especially since it's the nicer one) room with tears. And I asked what was wrong. She said you know what is wrong. Leaned over to me and let me hug her. Then she got up and went somewhere. I had to leave to do something and we met in the hallway and she stood there for a second before hugging me and grabbing me tight. She said it's not easy. And I said something like I know it isn't but that everything will be alright regardless what happens (I think I said that second part but sometimes I think things and don't say them). The pizza came and we watched some things and laughed.
Then this morning she went into my bed and asked how I was feeling (we both have been dealing with some allergies) and if I had any plans for the day. Then she said that she kind of wants to do something during this longer weekend. I suggested going to one of the parks since she had mentioned wanting to do that. But she said it's too late for today and it's going to get packed.
So that is where I am at. I just don't know if she is determined to leave and just hates the consequences that she will be in much dire financial situation OR if she is desperately trying to get her feelings for me back. OR if she really just wants the M to be different. I think me telling her that I want a new marriage WITH her gave her some perspective that I am not just going to be happy the way it used to be. But it's hard to figure out what to do. My gut tells me to keep the LRT going but my heart tells me to hug her and kiss her. But I am trying to not do that until SHE says she wants us to work on it. Or SHE wants to stay. So far the closest has been that she mentions a potential future together but that she doesn't feel it right now.
Oh. You asked about work. Yes, she has been coming by for lunch. Yesterday she mentioned: wait, I cannot just come here, are you okay with me being here. Most of the communication during the day SHE initiates although we know a lot of the same people so sometimes I have to share something with her. Only other communication I initiate there is: how is the day going especially when she had mentioned having a lot of appointments.
The DR book arrives tomorrow. I am a little worried she will see the package but there is a cook book in it so it will likely be alright. I did leave another book about transforming marriage on the table when she got back from her trip two weeks ago...I kind of forgot it was there but she pointed out that she had read a list online with signs why people divorce that one of the authors had written. But my fear is that she will see this as me not being genuine. On the other hand, she knows I read a lot online for all sorts of topics so it wouldn't surprise her that I would try to improve myself. But my objective is to show her that I am still myself.
A colleague of mine (and mutual friend of W and me) mentioned going to an event. I had mentioned it to my W on Friday and she told another colleague to go as well. That is when I was called fake when I said I don't have many more details. (and later that night she came to my room in tears). So yesterday I hadn't decided if I was going to go but when W was napping that colleague asked again. I tried to wake her but couldn't. So I left a text saying I was going to meet him. She first said to have fun and later seemed upset no one invited her. I said well he told me so it goes without saying you are invited as well.
This is one of many moments where I am mostly confused. She says she wants out but is then not happy when she is not involved in plans. I didn't want to say...besides you wanted out as it would start a fight.
Of course after I post that she wakes up and says she hates this place (home? state?). Doesn't want to be here. I suggest we can do something and she says you don't feel well (allergies) and there is nothing fun to do here. She later said she is depressed and how it is not easy having to think of every little detail she needs to do (which is weird since I offered help with several things: getting her a bank account, getting her driving lessons, looking at apartments, offering basically low financial stress). And she says (with tears) that she is depressed because doing things with me just don't feel good anymore. And she hates that feeling. I point out that we haven't really done anything fun lately...and she said yeah because it doesn't feel good.
It really feels like the "don't believe anything she says and only half of what she does" but she is clearly repressing her feelings for me. Anytime I keep my distance she comes looking for me and is in tears. Which makes me think there is SOMETHING ELSE I should be doing rather than keep my distance. She says she has no feelings for me, but grabs me tighter during hugs lately, she wants me to rub her back and says it feels good and is in tears.
I realize this is not me but her needing to process these things and I cannot do that for her. But it is also so extremely hard.
Your W clearly has not sure what she really wants from the sound of things. Which in my opinion works in your favour. If she claims to want to leave the MR to be on her own. Don't throw it in her face. But simply mention that you left with the intent on giving her time alone at home. And that your just giving her what she asked for. I've dealing with something in my sitch with my own W. She went from not wanting me in the same room to joining me where I'm located when I've been out of sight for too long. She'll now send me invites to places, text and emails. I can tell she wants to be in the MR by her actions, but stubbornness seems to block all that. And I have the feeling your W will likely be the same way. She'll fight you and try to prove your changes aren't authentic. But its going to take time and patience. So just hang in there and allow the changes to happen naturally. Don't expect to be this much better person in a day or a week.
that is exactly what it is. I realized that lately. I wasn't trying to be controlling but in many ways I was controlling. Plus she used to be agoraphobic when we met and didn't really want to leave...she recently has gotten more friends and more confidence. I thought we enjoyed binge watching Netflix or just sitting and watching dumb tv but that seems to have suddenly shifted. I don't think I missed a comment on that but I wasn't always the best listener. 
Is this a same sex M?