Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11
#2744106 05/21/17 05:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Hi. I'm new here. Just started reading DR. My story, I'm 42 he's 45. He had an EA that j came across in an email. Floored me and devastated me. We started MC and tried working things thru. He moved out in October 2016. We have three kids S15, D13, S11. They live with me in the marital home. Long story short. We own a business together. So we have worked together for 17 years. We've been together for 21 years. Common in law. Stress was huge between us. He has an anxiety issue he refuses to deal with. So his moods are all over the place. Right now he sees me as the bad guy. He said he's done with the relationship and won't come back home. Then in the next breath he says I have not shown any change and why would he come back to the same old stuff. He's tired of the arguiing. I find I have been arguing because I can't let go. I don't want it to end. So I found myself pushing him for an answer to R. But obviously when I push that doesn't help and just pushes him away. We still work together and neither has filed for D. There is talk but nothing has been filed. He said he can't waste time trying to fix our relationship because he has to start his life over. And can't waste time on us. That breaks my heart. I love him and want to work on things. But I feel I may have done more damage by pursuing and arguiing and trying to get him to see my point. I can't have NC because of work and the kids. After spending the weekend reading DR I know that I can't reason with him. I need to stay positive. And I need to keep my temper in check. It's hard when I still feel resentful. I need advice please smile


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Me-70, D37,S36
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Thank you. Not that I want to be here smile although I've come a long way since he first left. I'm finally sleeping at night. I'm exploring options for a new hobby. Trying everything once until I find something I like smile putting my energies into making my backyard gorgeous again. Purging stuff from the house. I do want to say tho is that he never moved his stuff from the house. He summer clothes are still here. His other car is still in the garage and his passport is still here. He still gets all his mail delivered here.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.


Me-70, D37,S36
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 313
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 313
Henwen,

You've got some good challenges ahead of you since you work together. One of the toughest parts will be not talking about your relationship or where H stands.

Right now, it's about you being there for yourself and your kids. Your H is on his path and you are on yours. Sounds like you're looking for new hobbies and want to work on your yard. These are great outlets.

One thing that we all learn here is it is most definitely a marathon and not a sprint. Things take time and lots of it. If you try to rush, it will set you back.

All the best.


Me 42, Wife 39; Married 16; Together 17; Kids: D13, S10
Wife asks for Divorce: 03/19/13
Reconcile: 07/07/13
Round 2 Starts: 02/19/17
Apartment Life: 04/21/17
PA Confirmed: 05/23/17
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Thanks. Yes I find it extremely hard to not ask how his weekends are or be angry at him that he left. That's why the DR book is coming in handy. I can apply it this coming week when I go to work. Baby steps.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,121
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,121
Hello Henwen,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

Don't be too hard on yourself regarding past mistakes on how to handle things. Slip ups happen! The good news is that you are recognizing the slip ups and are learning from them.

Little compares to the devastation people feel when they discover their spouse has been unfaithful. Couples often struggle to get past intense emotional pain, mistrust, resentment and never ending arguments about the betrayal. Healing from infidelity is achievable for both of you with the right support and tools.

Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004


A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.

Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
How many people are actually successful at reconciling??


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 567
L
LiM Offline
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 567
Originally Posted By: Henwen
How many people are actually successful at reconciling??


That's a hard question to answer Henwen because so much of what happens depends on choices your S makes regardless of what you do. The goal of DB is to focus on YOU and to get you to a place where you are ok and even better than you were before all of this started regardless of what your S does. By doing the things recommend in the books and on this forum, you will ensure that you are taking care of yourself and stacking the cards in your favor to save the M but at the end of the day, you cannot control your S. They are free to choose whatever path they want. The sooner you come to realize that and let them go, the sooner you can get to a place where saving the M becomes a possibility.


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
Originally Posted By: LiM
Originally Posted By: Henwen
How many people are actually successful at reconciling??
The goal of DB is to focus on YOU and to get you to a place where you are ok and even better than you were before all of this started regardless of what your S does.

I can tell you that everyone I know who has worked on themselves have succeeded!


Me-70, D37,S36
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
I get the working on myself. I'm doing that. Enjoying the fact I can sleep in without feeling guilty smile I can choose to stay out with friends and not be accountable to anyone. So I get that. And I am learning and realizing with DR that I can't control my S. At all. If he chooses the single life then I accept it. I have come to look at my life in the future as single. It makes me sad. But I understand that I cannot control him. My question is. How will letting go of the marriage help to make the marriage a success? Maybe once I read the whole book thru I will have a better understanding of it all.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 567
L
LiM Offline
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 567
Good question,

Until you let go of the M, you won't truly be free to work on you. So long as you are pining for the M, you aren't doing as much work on yourself as you could be doing. First and foremost, you've got to take care of Henwen.

In your first post, you wrote how your pursuing and inability to let go of the M is only pushing him further away. He's telling you that he is done and wants nothing to do with the M. ANYTHING you do that gets in his way of what he thinks he wants right now will only aggravate him and push him further away. So stop doing that. Give him what he thinks he wants. By letting him go, you dramatically take the pressure off the situation and a cool down period can begin. If you spend this time working on you, your H will see that not only are you just fine without him, in fact, you have become a BETTER person. THAT is very attractive!

Look, my W was having an A. After we began reconciling, she told me that she was irritated that I didn't pursue her. But in the same breath, then told me that if I had, it would have only served to push her further away. It would have been smothering to her because she was checked out of the M. I had to give her space and let her dig herself deeper and deeper into the hole she was making for her life. Is was only in that misery that she was able to begin seeing the changes I had made for myself to be a better person and how horrible the choices were that she was making for her life.

Drop the rope. Let him go and work on YOU!


Me: 48 y/o
W: 47 y/o
Together: > 20 yrs
BD: Dec '15, then S
2nd BD: Mar '16, then I filed for D
April '16: started piecing
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Yes the word smothering. He has used that once. Just after he left. He said he felt smothered. I guess bottom line is if I feel if I let go then he will never come back. But in the end. I don't really want him back unless he WANTS to come back and wants to do the work involved to make this M work. So I see your point. I guess I'm scared. What if he likes it out there on his own? But like DR says, I can't change his course. And I can see in myself how unhealthy it is to be stuck where I am at. And he has said he still sees me as an argumentative person. So detaching will help. I did go to work today and I did not ask how his long weekend went. Or tell him what I did. That was new behaviour for me. I normally ask and then fill him in on what I did. Today I just kept quiet.

I really appreciate all this help. These are new waters I am. Not ones I like. But ones I am learning to navigate. So thank you!


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 561
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 561
Hi Henwen,
I don't have anything new to add. You've gotten some good advice on here already. I just wanted to stop by and encourage you to really lay low with him and read Sandi's rules every morning before you see him at work. Don't let your heart dictate your actions right now. It will go against the DB mindset, and I truly believe if anything is going to help us at this point, it is to follow it, of course revised where it needs to be to fit our individual circumstances. I've been where you are, and I know the fear and pain that comes with this season of our lives. Keep posting, vent on here, cry on here, but let him see the cool, confident, secure woman that you are. It may feel like you're playing a game, but it's so much bigger than a game. It's who you want to be, whether the marriage gets saved or not. Save yourself first. That's all we can do right now. I'm pulling for you!


M-60 H-51
M-14 years
BD 12/26/16
S 1/1/17

"First the pain, then the rising."
Glennon Doyle Melton

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Thank you! I'm so glad I came across this board. There is just so much support and help.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So good day today! I kept things even and any contact I did have with H I kept it light and good. He started to get grumpy due to being overwhelmed at work and normally I would get all into his face and tell him to stop being so miserable
Today I just detached and kept on my own path. And you know what? It felt good. I did not bring up the relationship. I did not being up the splitting of assets. That was my newest thing. Bring up all the dirty deeds of divorce. Child support, assets etc in the hopes of waking him up and him magically coming to me and saying what a fool he was. And how he wanted back. Nope. I was so proud of myself. Then my DD let it out that when she and her brother were with H this weekend he went to a sports bar with friends. My first reaction was anger. He was out living his life and probably picking up chicks ( I know this isn't the case for sure. He was out with mutual friends and he wouldn't make himself look like an idiot like that). But my knee jerk reaction is to assume the worst and then start berating via text and arguiing. After my DD told me this I took a deep breath and started folding laundry. Anything to keep me away from my phone so I wouldn't start texting. And it worked. I knew that he was probably watching the Jays game and not woman searching. And I reminded myself even if he was its none of my business. I need to let him walk his own path. It was such a realization tonight for me to not immediately act. So instead of leaving him with a sour taste in his mouth from me by arguiing. He is now left with happy thoughts because I was amicable and detached today.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Still here and still DB Although it is SO hard. It goes against everything I want to do lol. I get the concept behind it. And I am starting with a beginners mind. He started talking about the past last night. Its hard. Because when I answer his questions, anything I may say he will take it against him and then say this conversation isn't going anywhere as usual. Then he says lets just say its all my fault and I'm being ridiculous. And he ends the conversation. So what do I do in this situation? I have told him over and over that I do not think this is all his fault. It took both of us to destroy this relationship. How do I deal with this? He is obviously still in his fog. Do I just ignore it? And carry on.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 115
R
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 115
Originally Posted By: Henwen
Still here and still DB Although it is SO hard. It goes against everything I want to do lol. I get the concept behind it. And I am starting with a beginners mind. He started talking about the past last night. Its hard. Because when I answer his questions, anything I may say he will take it against him and then say this conversation isn't going anywhere as usual. Then he says lets just say its all my fault and I'm being ridiculous. And he ends the conversation. So what do I do in this situation? I have told him over and over that I do not think this is all his fault. It took both of us to destroy this relationship. How do I deal with this? He is obviously still in his fog. Do I just ignore it? And carry on.


Hi Henwen, I'm sorry you are here but it sounds like you are doing many things right. Keep your focus on your own healing and not on what you H is doing.

Also, you are not to blame or responsible for his actions. Don't accept them. In my case I often have remind my wife that she chose to leave the M with her behavior and I am still in the marriage. I tell her that her actions are not ok but I believe in her and believe she knows what is right and can make correct d cisions if she chooses to do so.

Stay focused on you and discover your own possibilities from here on out. Be the person only a fool would pass up.


Me46 W46 M25yrs T29yrs
4 children
ILYBNILWY 1/30/17
PA confronted 3/6/17
Separated same house
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 815
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 815
Henwen,

Just focus on you. I agree that you seem to be doing right things. H is trying to make himself come off like some kind of sacrifice. My W tried to do the same and I refused to go along with it. You continue to let him know that its not all on him. Don't let him put anything on you. He controls his own actions and feelings, not yours.


MR: 15 T:17
Me: 37 W: 34
S14
BD/PA/EA: 12/2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Thanks. It's an inner battle every day. But today I won the battle. And I am detaching. I don't wonder what he is doing in the evening anymore. I don't wonder who he is texting when I hear his phone go off at work. Every day I realize these little things it brings me closer to being happy. I'm not basing my life on his movements.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,121
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,121
Originally Posted By: Henwen
Still here and still DB Although it is SO hard. It goes against everything I want to do lol. I get the concept behind it. And I am starting with a beginners mind. He started talking about the past last night. Its hard. Because when I answer his questions, anything I may say he will take it against him and then say this conversation isn't going anywhere as usual. Then he says lets just say its all my fault and I'm being ridiculous. And he ends the conversation. So what do I do in this situation? I have told him over and over that I do not think this is all his fault. It took both of us to destroy this relationship. How do I deal with this? He is obviously still in his fog. Do I just ignore it? And carry on.


Hello Henwen,

I would hold off on ignoring him at this point. However, there are things that could work and make a difference. I suggest you speak to a DB coach, as they are experts in looking at what has happened to bring you to this point in your relationship and what is the best way to interact with him, so that you are most likely to bring him closer and not push him any further away. Your coach's expertise will help you come up with a very specific plan (that may be counter intuitive to what you feel like saying and doing) on how to best turn things around. I wish you all the best and would be happy to discuss the coaching with you.

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004


A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.

Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Thanks Cristy. I might just do that. Although some days it feels easier to just throw in the towel. Like today. I'm having a hard time with everything. I just question how he can throw away 21 years and everything we have in life. How he can upset our three kids. I just can't fathom that. I know everyone is in the same boat. And has the same questions. It's just frustrating. Especially this month. Which is what would have been our 22 year anniversary. I'm trying not to dwell on it. But it's hard.

I am signing up to a new gym in town this weekend. So I will be able to take some of my anger and upset out on the treadmill. And once I start to get active i will feel better about myself and my situation in life. I just figure that almost a year into this I would have let of the anger and hurt by now. So I'm really trying to do that. I hate days like this.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,121
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,121
Hi Henwen,

Sure, leaving might seem easier, but it isn't. Leaving just creates a different set of issues. Speaking with one of our DB Coaches will help you clarify your goals.

Good luck at your new gym! Sounds like an excellent plan!

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004


A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.

Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So WH found out I was going out this weekend with friends. Ever since he has been confrontational. It's hard to not engage with him. I have a couple times because he just knows the buttons to push and I am so tired of him spinning his false version of our R history. It's driving me crazy.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So last night I got a text from my WH, at midnight, which is weird because I don't usually get texts from him. Especially after business hours. Anyways he was angry I was putting the bills in my name. He's angry that I went and tried to put my cell phone in my own name. Anything and everything came up. But everytime he said something I would ask myself the question. What do I want my end result to be? And will this comment or action bring me to that result? I felt empowered with that knowledge and strength to follow thru. I even threw in some appreciation comments so I could be his 'cheerleader' without feeling like a doormat. No idea what set him off last night.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 115
R
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 115
Originally Posted By: Henwen
So last night I got a text from my WH, at midnight, which is weird because I don't usually get texts from him. Especially after business hours. Anyways he was angry I was putting the bills in my name. He's angry that I went and tried to put my cell phone in my own name. Anything and everything came up. But everytime he said something I would ask myself the question. What do I want my end result to be? And will this comment or action bring me to that result? I felt empowered with that knowledge and strength to follow thru. I even threw in some appreciation comments so I could be his 'cheerleader' without feeling like a doormat. No idea what set him off last night.


Hi Henwen,

What you are saying sort of sounds like how I am handling things right now. My situation is probably the worst it has ever been. W is disrespecting the marriage by being with the OM whenever she chooses.

I'm choosing not to be her doormat but at the same time I'm not falling and acting like a doormat. I can still choose to be validating and positive and even kind. She has gone low but I'm not going there. I want to walk through this with my own dignity. I will come out of this on the other side with grace. "The loser now will be later to win."

Somehow as dark as it has gotten for me I can still find little things, songs, poems, photos, that bring me inspiration just to get through the day.

Hang in there.


Me46 W46 M25yrs T29yrs
4 children
ILYBNILWY 1/30/17
PA confronted 3/6/17
Separated same house
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Resolut, you are in a tough situation for sure. I empathize. It would be very hard to be in your situation right now. I'm glad you are finding some light to concentrate on. I wish the same to you. Hang in there. Better days are ahead no matter how things end. As I keep saying to myself I won't always feel this way.

I had my first DB coaching session today. It was empowering to have a plan. It was nice to hear an impartial view on my situation and to have hope again. But know that if things don't work out then it will be ok as well. I'm ready to face tomorrow and my WH with my goal oriented plan and new views.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So I followed my coach's advice. Sent WH my apology letter. Made sure there was nothing but validation for him in there and asked for forgiveness. I don't get a response from him. Which i suspected. But I continue to treat him as a friend and drop all R talk. I don't question him. Every interaction I have with him is nice and light and friendly. Today is the second day since I sent the forgiveness letter. He is nicer and lighter. Even playfully swatting me with paper. I'm not looking into any of the behavior change as anything. I'm staying my course. But it's nice to not have that anger edge coming from both of us.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Today is a rough day. Weekends always are. I'm getting tired of the game of him not knowing what he wants and me feeling like I'm spinning out of control. So I checked myself and went outside and did some lawn work. Went grocery shopping. Stuff that took my mind off things. I have a question tho. He says it's over. He says he is tired of the arguing, etc. so what do I do here? Do I continue to just fence sit with him until he makes up his mind. Or do i just push for the things I want done. Like getting the house out of his name, changing the house bills to my name. To show him that I am tired of the game and if he sinserelt wants to move on then this is what needs to be done. I had a flood in my basement the other morning. And I didn't even let him know. Because he doesn't live here so it isn't his issue any more. At least in my eyes it isn't. And he will get upset that I didn't tell him because he constantly wants to help and I just see him helping as him wanting to assuage his guilt over leaving. My 12 yr old son wrote is his year book that his dream is to have a loving family. That really hurt and I haven't been able to stop thinking about that comment since. I have told him that daddy and I still love him even tho we are no longer apart. He just shrugged his shoulders.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
I meant no longer together. Not apart smile


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,509
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,509
You keep going, you keep working on yourself, you don't need to worry about all the legal or material stuff right now. Give it a year, or two, to worry about that stuff, by then you won't be spinning and if it comes to that, it I'll be more like a business transaction. For now keep working on yourself, give him space to find himself, he needs to want to come back, and you need to want him back not need him back.


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
10/31/16 - We sold house
01/10/18 - D Finalized
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Thank you. You are right. I went out and spent time on my pool and talked with a friend and I feel a bit better. I just let the insecurities get the best of me.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So a week later after my last post something clicked in me and I detached. I didn't have to think about it. I didn't even have to try. It just happened. I finally realized that I am going to be ok without him. I am so hurt my family may not get back together. I love him truly. But I don't want him here if he doesn't want to be here. So I told him that when he gets back from his weekend away with the kids we need to sit down and has things out. Child access, parenting plans etc. he never answered me. I didn't argue. Because it doesn't matter anymore. I went about my evening. But you know what happened? He text me this evening. He said have a good night. He hasn't done that in six months or more. If I would say have a good night he would say ok or thanks. Never say it back. Today he said it to me with no prompts whatsoever. I'm not putting much stock in it. But it was a surprise to hear.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,152
Likes: 1
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,152
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Henwen
So I told him that when he gets back from his weekend away with the kids we need to sit down and has things out. Child access, parenting plans etc. he never answered me. I didn't argue. Because it doesn't matter anymore. I went about my evening. But you know what happened? He text me this evening. He said have a good night. He hasn't done that in six months or more.


Yeah that's the pursuit/ distance dynamic at work. When you pursue it pushes them away, so the natural instinct is to pursue harder but that pushes them away even worse. So when you pull back and stop pursuing, inevitably they will start temp checking you to make sure you're still on the hook as Plan B. Your goal is to stick with the distancing. Keep him guessing, make him wonder. Get out and GAL, it's the healthiest thing for you, and the best way to make him wonder.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So an update. Which is not much. We had a big blowup. My insecurities get the best of me and I seriously did a huge backslide last week. He said he is never coming home. So of course I got upset and told him to get his stuff out of my
House by the end of September. He got upset. I got upset. It was just a mess. I told him what I wanted out of the cottage. He was supposed to bring it home to me this weekend. But he didn't bring anything home to me. I don't know why I let my insecurities get the best of me. I don't know why I get angry at him for leaving. Well I know why. But it doesn't help anything. So I spent the weekend completely gutting my backyard. I weeded everything and threw out a ton of stuff. It felt good. And therapeutic. A new week. And a new week of detaching further.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So I found out he is going to a mutual friends daughters wedding. I wasn't invited and he was. I'm upset about that. Because I am hurt these friends didn't invite me as well. And it's going to be hard to know he is at the wedding dancing with people. I have made plans to keep myself busy that night. So I won't be home going squirrely. But it is going to be hard. The hardest part is knowing that his life hasn't changed a bit. He still goes out to the cottage every weekend. He got the cottage and I got the house. Even tho nothing is legally written down. He gets angry when I even suggest we sit down to discuss finances or I want to put the bills in my own name. Here's the thing I struggle with and maybe someone can help me. If he keeps saying things are over and he is never coming home and he is adamaent about that. How come he won't come get his stuff out of my house? Or separate the bills? Or go to a lawyer to sort out custody of our kids? We still have credit cards in both our names. I still have access to all our bank accounts. I have told him if he wants this legal separation/divorce then I'm ready. Let's get it on. Because I am. But if wants to try or he's undecided then let me know that as well. He won't do anything. My IC says if he is truly wanting to separate his stuff would be moved out of his house and separation agreements would already be drawn. But, and I'm mind reading again, maybe he doesn't want to take his stuff because his house is small. And this way his crap won't be cluttering up his house. It just clutters up mine. But really. If he wants this over why the stalling?? It is causing both of us to be stuck and not move on. I want things to work with him. So I can wait. But I also don't want to waste my time if he is truly serious about not wanting to come back. So I'm looking for advice. Thanks.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 33
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 33
Henwen, mine has separated some things but won't get on with the big show. They fear the new relationship won't work out and are afraid to let go of the long term supply (that would be you). Is yours passive aggressive or does he have narcissistic traits? I think it could be related to that too.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
There is no one else in the picture for either of us. And it appears he has become passive aggressive since his BD. He is normally a decisive person. Knows what he wants and goes for it. But with our relationship, it is the first time I have seen him fence sit. His words say he's leaving. But his actions don't seem to be going that way. Unless he surprises me and does actually follow thru and gets a lawyer. I am in the middle of redoing the house. His tv room has this paneling I have always hated. I just recently asked him about the condition of the drywall underneath so I can redo it. He got all angry and then said whatever it's your house do what you want. Did I make a mistake? Is that pushing him out? This is my GAL activity. I'm fixing up my house. Cleaning and organizing. One of his issues with me is that our house was always so disorganized. So I'm working hard and have hired help to help me sort things thru. But me redoing stuff my way, should I leave his old room?

So to answer your question. With just this R he is passive aggressive. Refuses to answer questions about finances. Refuses to talk about parenting plans.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 33
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 33
Henwen, I wouldn't discount a third party. The actions, including the prior EA are consistent.

I would redo the room. How about giving him a consequence to his actions that has an upside for you either way.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Very true about the upside. And interesting that you think the actions are consistent with a third party in the picture. If there is I want nothing to do with him anymore. But I wouldn't even know how to go about securing that kind of knowledge. I still get all the phone bills and his credit cards and bank statements to my house. Nothing is out of order. I work with him and right now our kids spend every weekend with him. And there is no one else. He is always where he says he is. So I'm not sure what else to look for when I am looking for evidence of a third party. And I know that isn't healthy. But truly I would rather know then now know. Because then it would over me and allow me to just move on.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Edited: I would rather know then not know.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 33
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 33
I had control over all the bills. My H worked long hours and I thought was accounted for 24/7. He had a hidden affair for 3 years with a woman 4.5 hours away. He insisted on driving our son to an activity about an hour from there and went and saw her. I had no idea she existed. They used FB messenger to text and talk. There are a million other options with apps, burner phones, etc.

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 4,560
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 4,560
I am in the same boat, all signs point to my W having an A but I have no proof. I try to investigate through cell phone information however I really didn't find anything. At this point in time it wouldn't change anything or how I am detaching etc. so I realize it could be happening but don't sweat it.


Married 14, Together 17
M: 44, W: 43, D: 8, D: 6
M: 46, W: 45. D: 10. D: 8 (CUR)
Bomb Dropped: 5/28/2017
Separation Date: 6/17/2017
Divorce Filed: 2/7/2018
Divorce Final: 4/12/2018
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 264
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 264
I think this is the hardest part of any of these situations: does the other person already have someone else.

If you cannot find evidence I would say either assume there is someone or assume that there is no one. There are too many ways that arrangements can be made (new credit card, paying in cash, having the other person pay, and OwnIt mentioned other things). If those things happen there is NO WAY you can detect it.

But I definitely get it. I too am thinking what she is telling other people etc. It drives you insane and doesn't help.

Would it be easier for you to assume there is someone else and that IF he wants to recommit to you HE will have to do the hard work of convincing you there is no one else.

OR to assume that he needs space/time and IF he comes back you assume there was no one else. OR if there was someone else that he made the choice that you are more important.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
I have both his email and fb passwords. Unbeknownst to him. So he's not talking to anyone that way. I am going the version that he just needs his space right now. And if it turns out I was wrong then I'm wrong. But either way none of this stops me from detaching and finishing my house. And if he comes home he comes home. If he doesn't. He doesn't. I can't control it either way. I must move forward with my own life. I talked to one of my kids friends parents this weekend. And she left her husband for another man and is living with this man. And is telling the kids that their dad doesn't want anything to do with them. It's horrible. I know the father cares deeply about his kids and it's the mom that is taking the kids away. It just reiterated the need to get along if only for the kids.

It's just driving me insane that he says he's finished. He's done with the arguing. But he won't take the final step to finish it. So it gives me false hope. And I know the rules. Don't believe anything they say. But that is hard to do. Because like I said I don't want to rely on false hope.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So back when WH and I were together he built a garage he moved out before it was finished. He came back to finish it. But the driveway needed to be regarded to match the garage. I told him no. He wasn't living at home anymore he wouldn't be putting any more money into the house. And I left it at that. Two days ago WH texts me to tell me that the landscapers are coming to the house to redo the driveway. I said I was upset that he didn't respect my wishes to leave it alone. But what was done was done. And I wasn't going to argue about it. So I get home that night and not only do they have my driveway tore up they have tore up my front patio and garden as well. My front patio was horrible before. And my front garden was non existent. So I text WH and ask if he knew about this. He did and all I had to do was go over the plans for the interlocking stone and garden plans. I was floored. Why would he go to all this trouble for a house he doesn't live in? He's not planning on selling the house. We have already discussed that issue a long time ago. So now the house has a gorgeous interlocking brick front step and porch and a new garden. And the ironic part? They don't do paving for the driveway. They were there to fix the grade of the driveway. But mainly there to do the new porch and garden. So why would WH go to all this trouble to redo the front of the house if he never plans on coming home??? Thanks


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 33
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 33
Scrambled eggs for brains. That is what I was told every time I asked these why questions. My tells me constantly he wants a divorce (without using the word) but won't file and won't even tell me what he doesn't like about the separation agreement I had drawn up.

If you read the stories from a lot of the returners they say they knew they'd come back in 5-10 years whatever. I think they try to keep their place at home while they are out running around living the teenage life. Let him pour his money to improve a house he doesn't live in.

Forget about him and live as though he isn't coming back.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
I'm trying to forget about him and move on. And most days I'm successful. It sometimes be throws me for a loop. Like doing the patio and garden. And today he tells me that he hopes I like it. Because he picked out what he thought I would like. What does it matter what I like or not? And he told me to have a good night. And he told me about his day yesterday. So weird.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Edited: but sometimes he throws me for a loop


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 3
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 3
Hi Henwen,

I just read your sitch. I am impressed with your disposition and stance on this. You seem very level headed and strong. It is still relatively early and you have a solid grasp on things. I would say to try and keep in mind that it is still early. The saying here is that this is a marathon, not a sprint. Often we want answers and to know the outcome, however it really can take many months or even years to unfold. Even if D proceedings happen or legal paperwork is done, please keep in mind that things can still change. The emotional aspect still exists too, as that is all just paper.

I have been reading here for 3 plus years, and while I am no expert, I tend to think that there is some type of A in most sitches. Sometimes they are revealed right away and sometimes not at all. It sounds like it won't do you any good to worry about that or speculate anyhow, so I am glad you are letting that idea go. I only bring this up because you say that any type of A is an automatic deal breaker. I can understand feeling that way. I always felt that way too, until it happened to me. Sometimes as the years go by and we see the benefit our family has on our kids, or begin to understand our partner on a deeper level, the concept alone becomes less relevant than all the circumstances surrounding it.

I can completely sympathize with mindreading and why he is not moving things out, working on the house, and overall sending mixed messages. I struggled with that a lot! My H did and said so many things while he was gone that indicated he would come back. And he did. The thing is, when I have gone back and asked him about those incidents and if he was doing/saying it because he wasn't detached from me, I was only right about half the time. There were also so many random interactions that we had where he was missing me, wanting to come back, and showing remorse and I completely missed it. So my point is, it is very hard to tell and somewhat of a wasted effort.

My initial thought about the work he had done on your house, is that he plans on coming back. He could also just be feeling guilty for leaving. He also simply may care about you and the children and wants your space to be nice with no thoughts of returning. I wish we could tell, but I tend to believe we have no idea what they are thinking or feeling. One of my H's breaking moments (when he knew he wanted to come home) was when we had a random telephone conversation about walking the dog. Something very simple, which led to feelings of normalcy, was one of the straws that broke the camels back. ... Not however the bottle of wine and card he left on my bed months prior. That he said was just a thank you note. ... Sigh.

I think you are on the right track though. Keep living for you and keep up those DBing efforts--Sandis rules, GAL, 180s, and then allow that detachment. Detachment is good in any M or R for that matter. Your post a couple weeks back was right on target. You are going to have wonderful life with or without this man, and if he doesn't want in on it, well then you really don't want him either. It is almost that simple. On the flip side, often people come back together or remarry years down the road ...

Just take it day by day and keep living for you. This will all unfold as it should in time.
Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
I try to take it day by day. Trust me. Some days it's an uphill battle. Thank you for taking the time to respond tho. I read about your sitch everytime you post. You are an inspiration Blu.

So tonight WH came to pick up the kids for the weekend. I wasn't home. I guess he looked around at the new landscaping. He told me it looked good. But he wasn't impressed with part of it and if I wasn't he would talk to the landscaper for me to see if he could change it. Then he says. You know maybe we should look into getting the pool surround and back patio done. I don't know how to respond. Why in the world would he want to do that? Especially since I asked him if he wanted to get together, just as a family, for our boys birthdays next week. We did a family dinner out at a restaurant for our Ds birthday at the beginning of the year. So why avoid the question about the boys but then suggest we spend a ton of money to fix up the back yard.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Just looking for some input on why he would want to get the backyard re landscaped, but not answer about dinner for our sons birthday this week.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 4,227
Likes: 63
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 4,227
Likes: 63
It's the way that they disconnect - people first, things last.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Hmm I never thought of that before. Weird that he would start a big and expensive project like that while he is disconnecting. I did hear from him that he is going to dinner with us as a family for the boys birthday. I have made a goal for myself. To not talk of any R or anything that resembles R for the rest of July. Aug 6 he takes the kids and leaves for the rest of the summer and travels with them. We used to do it as a family but this year it's just him and the kids and I will stay back and run the business. So I won't see my kids for a month while that bothers me they are all ok with that. So I am trying to be upbeat and positive for them. I don't want to say no to the trip as they do it every year. So it's something they look forward to. And honestly. With working with each other every day it is super hard to detach. So him being gone will a good break. So I'm trying to be light and breezy and leave him with a good feeling of us when he goes away. It's hard to see them all have fun when I am left behind. And yes I am GAL but it's still bittersweet to see them all living my old life without me. My best friend keeps telling me WH is showing signs of coming home or at least being confused. By him telling me of his day last week and now wanting to build up the house. And I refuse to look at it like that because it hurts to much to get my hopes up. My IC who used to be our MC said the same thing. She doesn't think he's gone for good. He's just gone to get some breathing space. There are so many signs of him going to return. But once when I asked to date or if he was coming home he said no. He was tired of my arguiing and accusations. And I will never change. I want to believe he will come home. But at the same time I don't want to live in that constant feeling of hope. I know if I press I will get the answer I don't want. But then sometimes I think it will be better then the limbo I am in. I know I will be ok with out him. That's not what concerns me. I feel that if he is really wanting out then let's get it over with. And I even said as much to him. Let's get it on if this is what you want. But then he won't. So to save me from going crazy I have promised myself a break. Leave it for the summer. Don't talk R. Detach. GAL. Continue working on my house. Lose some weight. And revisit things in the fall when he comes back with the kids. Easier said then done for me.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So I have been doing a ton of reading on these posts. And I'm a bit nervous. I have read and understand how my WH feels. And when I found out about his EA I never let him live or down. I always brought it up. I held deep resentment in me about it. I'm over it now tho. I see it for what it was and why it happened. I know it's no ones fault but his own. But I can see how it was enabled etc. anyways my point being. For almost a year I cried victim over this. Not every day and sometimes not every month. But any chance I got i brought it up. And I know he felt like [censored] for doing it. Because he has been cheated on in his past. But how does he get over me thinking he was trash? And know that I don't think that way anymore. I have sent the apology letter to him as per my DBcoachs suggestion and things got good between us. And with us working together I have made mistakes like paid bills late and now he keeps bringing that up. He says he can't trust me to get my job done. And then he just gets angry at me. He can't look at himself right now and see his faults. It's too hard for him. I have stopped arguiing at work. And have asked for him to put his personal feelings aside as well so we can just work together. I can't quit. I make way to much to find anywhere else. I have nc with him except work and the kids. And I know he needs to do the work himself to get over his anger. But is there anything else I can do from my end? Especially when he starts to get angry and then starts getting angry st me and blaming me for stuff that has nothing to do with me.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 3
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 3
I understand that feeling of wanting to "do" more, when sometimes doing less is actually more. In terms of him getting angry and blaming, I would say revisit the validation threads for ideas. It is a good way to let him know that you are listening and care about what he says, without necessarily agreeing or taking the blame. It's a good skill to have in any R.

I don't know what else to tell you about why he is investing in expensive house projects. I don't think it is an indicator that he will come back, as much as I don't think it's an indicator that he won't. Sometimes it is hard to accept that we just don't know why. You don't though. He may not even know. My H certainly gave off signs that he would return and it wasn't even his intention. If someone had asked him at the time, "are you doing this because you plan on returning home?" I don't think he would have known how to answer. He probably would have said "no" just to save face.

If you read all of Cadet's HW, you will see that they speak in absolute negatives because they are also scared. Remember to believe none of what he says and half of what he does. The more sure they seem, the more we believe it is true. That is incorrect. There were times I would press H for answers, "What are we doing here? What about the house? Or the kids? When are we getting D?" I would really test him. The more I did this, the more I was met with "I told you we are done and it's over." I think forcing this out of him also aided in him staying away longer.

It wasn't actually true tho. He was hurt and confused too. He felt that he had made his decision though and was also showing face and protecting his ego. I didn't learn any of this until after he came back of course. So I would say if you press him for answers, it may only hurt you more. Can you accept that there is a chance that he is as hurting and confused as you are? And maybe be is hiding that so well because he is a man that just walked out on his family and is afraid he made the wrong choice, so guilt and pride may further cloud his judgements? I don't know this but perhaps it's possible?

I know it must hurt they are taking the family vacay without you. I did this with my kids and it was hard for me and for H being left out. All in all though, the benefits of time, space away, and detachment seem like a great opportunity for all of you. Maybe this is what you all need?

Hang in there!
Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
I agree that he is hurt and scared as well. And doesn't know what he is doing. I have told him that the path home is open to him. But I am not forcing nor asking him to come home. It will be his choice and decision. I guess I just want to hear that he needs more time to decide. I would be ok with that. And I try to remind myself that believe none of what he says. But it hard when he says he's done. And I found out in his email that he just bought a used sea doo for the summer and the kids. He hasn't told me. I know that he doesn't have too. As we aren't technically together anymore. And I know the old me would have got into a huge argument over it but it still hurts that he is hiding it from me.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
I will reread the validation. Thanks


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So just journaling. WH told me he didn't need anything from the house. Whatever he didn't pick up he would just buy. Today he text me if he could come by and pick up a window air conditioner from the house. As much I wanted to say I thought you were just going to but what you needed?? But I didn't. I just said ok. So he came by and got the ac unit and helped our oldest son with the hot tub.

I'm having a hard time with him going to this wedding in two weeks. So we got into an argument over that. I need to keep my mouth shut and my anger down. It's hard tho. It just feels like his life never changed. He still gets to go out on weekends at the cottage. And I stay home. I still run the kids everywhere. He does work later then me. My question is. Do I force him to run the kids around as well. Or just do it and grin it and bear it so he will come back. And how do you tell when it's too late for the M? He tells me it's too late. But then sometimes I tell him to come home and he just rubs his face. So part of me thinks it's not too late. This is all confusing. Two of my friends have separated and both got back with their husbands. But it was the women who left and the men wanting them back. Not the men leaving. And I know there are no guarantees in life. But I'm
Just wondering on signs.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So today was my oldests birthday. We went out to dinner as a family. We did the same thing on Monday for my youngests birthday. It was nice. Today H asks if I wanted anything at the coffe shop. I think I stumbled over my no thank you. He hasn't asked if wanted anything for months. When I get angry I try to think of the bigger picture here. I have read all about the actions and reactions. So I'm trying not to let my anger get thru. I'm trying to figure out a life without him. How that will look and feel. How maybe I should try and look for a job where I'm not working with him. I make a lot of money at this job. It would be a bad decision financial wise to give it up. After all the reading her this past week I can see that my anger and blame has been validating my H's reasons for leaving and making me seem like a b!tch. So I need to give that up and move forward with the forgiveness. For myself. So I'm not angry.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,680
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,680
Hi! Just wanted to stop by and say thank you for your kind words

I don't know the deets of your story but if H is not living there and if he has OW you should Go dark. NC unless kids or bill related. It's difficult if you work together but then maybe you could remember to treat him as a neighbor. People referenced the check out clerk. Smiles and goes about her day with the next customer, that really helped
Me to imagine what that looked like.


M 31 H 34
S 6 S 9
BD 2/14 Piecing 8/14
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Hi T. No OW that I know of. Nothing points of one. He left because he said he was unhappy with the way things were. The constant arguiing and lack of sex.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 32
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 32
Originally Posted By: Henwen
Hmm I never thought of that before. Weird that he would start a big and expensive project like that while he is disconnecting. I did hear from him that he is going to dinner with us as a family for the boys birthday. I have made a goal for myself. To not talk of any R or anything that resembles R for the rest of July. Aug 6 he takes the kids and leaves for the rest of the summer and travels with them. We used to do it as a family but this year it's just him and the kids and I will stay back and run the business. So I won't see my kids for a month while that bothers me they are all ok with that. So I am trying to be upbeat and positive for them. I don't want to say no to the trip as they do it every year. So it's something they look forward to. And honestly. With working with each other every day it is super hard to detach. So him being gone will a good break. So I'm trying to be light and breezy and leave him with a good feeling of us when he goes away. It's hard to see them all have fun when I am left behind. And yes I am GAL but it's still bittersweet to see them all living my old life without me. My best friend keeps telling me WH is showing signs of coming home or at least being confused. By him telling me of his day last week and now wanting to build up the house. And I refuse to look at it like that because it hurts to much to get my hopes up. My IC who used to be our MC said the same thing. She doesn't think he's gone for good. He's just gone to get some breathing space. There are so many signs of him going to return. But once when I asked to date or if he was coming home he said no. He was tired of my arguiing and accusations. And I will never change. I want to believe he will come home. But at the same time I don't want to live in that constant feeling of hope. I know if I press I will get the answer I don't want. But then sometimes I think it will be better then the limbo I am in. I know I will be ok with out him. That's not what concerns me. I feel that if he is really wanting out then let's get it over with. And I even said as much to him. Let's get it on if this is what you want. But then he won't. So to save me from going crazy I have promised myself a break. Leave it for the summer. Don't talk R. Detach. GAL. Continue working on my house. Lose some weight. And revisit things in the fall when he comes back with the kids. Easier said then done for me.


I am in a similar sitch as you only reversed gender roles. We work together and I found that its actually easy to fake detachment when you work together. I am faking it till I make it. I keep our conversations strictly limited to work. I make sure I dont initiate any convo about kids, work, and home unless absolutely necessary. R talks are a big no no for me to initiate. If she initiates R talk while talking about work I listen, validate and immediately go back to work talk. I would make my work fun, chat with co workers and clients about GAL activities. Make friends with everyone. Be an employee he cannot afford to lose and watch how job offers pour in from your own clients. But it will take some time. Till then DETACH.

Do not get your hopes up, as his investing in the house maybe to increase the value in case you guys end up selling it, when D is finalized. Your goal is to be the W only a fool will leave. And yes lose some weight, read Dr Davis's book, Wheat Belly even if you dont have a belly. When he comes back in fall, be a pleasant co-worker and nothing more. Let him hear it from others, the GAL stories you will be sharing with others. Exercise everyday and find a hobby that takes you out of the house. I am no expert, follow what you like best of the things I mentioned.

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 32
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 32
Originally Posted By: Henwen
So just journaling. WH told me he didn't need anything from the house. Whatever he didn't pick up he would just buy. Today he text me if he could come by and pick up a window air conditioner from the house. As much I wanted to say I thought you were just going to but what you needed?? But I didn't. I just said ok. So he came by and got the ac unit and helped our oldest son with the hot tub.

I'm having a hard time with him going to this wedding in two weeks. So we got into an argument over that. I need to keep my mouth shut and my anger down. It's hard tho. It just feels like his life never changed. He still gets to go out on weekends at the cottage. And I stay home. I still run the kids everywhere. He does work later then me. My question is. Do I force him to run the kids around as well. Or just do it and grin it and bear it so he will come back. And how do you tell when it's too late for the M? He tells me it's too late. But then sometimes I tell him to come home and he just rubs his face. So part of me thinks it's not too late. This is all confusing. Two of my friends have separated and both got back with their husbands. But it was the women who left and the men wanting them back. Not the men leaving. And I know there are no guarantees in life. But I'm
Just wondering on signs.


Two weeks is a long time to accomplish a whole new GAL routine. Also you need to stop looking at any signs, its all a deceptive facade. Do not ask him to come home. 180 all the way. Reconnect with some old friends (not mutual friends) and invite them over or go out for dinner/ movies. Be sure to share it with everyone else at work when he is NOT there. Let him hear it from them. Its never to late but you need to stop the persuit immediately. There are no guarantees but the chances of you coming out on top are substantially higher if you follow DB steps.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Thanks!! I woke up today promising myself no arguiing. Nothing. So he got upset with me this morning as two employees are not here. He swears I did not tell him. I know I did. And I'm front of our other employees. So next time I will make sure I text him and screenshot said texts so I have proof that I did tell him. It bothers me that he does not hold himself accountable for a lot of his actions. He came from a very abusive household growing up. So he has a hard time accepting fault with himself. That is what leads to our arguments. Because I try to get him to see his faults and he refuses to look. I don't do that now. This was during the relationship. And I would always jump at the chance to show how wrong he was because he always believed himself to be right. I can see now how that would be detrimental to the male or anyone's pysche.

I will fake it until I make it. It's the only way right now and use this board more to vent on so I don't vent on him.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 32
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 32
Just text him next time, no need for the screenshots, if he questions politely tell him to check his texts and dont ruin your workday. The fact that two employees didnt show up is blessing, now you can step up your game and move closer to being the employee, he cannot afford to lose. If he argues even about work listen validate and move on to the next task. He needs to see the new you but it will take time. And it does get easier especially when you work together and long as you dont forget DB rules and DETACH

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
That's what I'm trying to do. But he knows what buttons to push and i still fall into the trap.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So I found out he gave the kids a used sea doo. He text me today that it's an old one low hp. I simply said that it's a fantastic gift and I am sure everyone will have fun with it. And left it at that. I know he was expecting me to argue about it and get upset. But I wasn't going to give him that satisfaction. Plus who cares if he got that for the kids. Really. It has nothing to do with me.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So H text me last night about some payments he thought came out of his Visa card. I kept it simple and said those payments should not have come out of your Visa. Show me tomorrow. I'm confused. Then he came back and said oh my mistake. I'm wrong. They did come out of the bank account. I simply said ok good. Then he said but there are some weird transactions on my Visa. I again kept it polite and said I'm not sure. You will have look into that. I don't use your Visa.

I used to use his Visa before BD. Anyways I didn't fall bait to anything I kept it professional and he had nothing to fight against and he stopped texting. Today at work I'm keeping it professional and light.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Interesting. H had a tow job today. And he couldn't find the vehicle. That normally gets him overwhelmed and getting angry at me. But today he said directions got messed up and it wasn't my fault. That is not normal for him. At all. I see this as a plus.

I did however ask him to talk to our D13 about living with him part time in the fall. She doesn't want to at the moment. Because there is nothing to do at his house she says. And since he has them for the month of August it would be a good time to talk to her about this. He said he can't make them do anything. Which totally goes against his whole you are the parent and they are the child philosophy. And he's not talking about taking the kids not because he doesn't want them. He loves the kids and loves spending time with them. He's not making any decisions in this separation. If he wants it so bad why won't he make decisions? Lol.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
I know I know. No R talks. But I asked H today if the reason he won't talk to the kids is because he wants me to make all the decisions. Even with the divorce itself he won't make a decision. I said i think it because you want me to be the bad person and then you can go around and say I pushed you out. And he said is that right. And I said yes. And he said he was just tired of all the arguiing. And that's what he says all the time. He's tired of the arguing. And that's why he initially left is because of the arguiing. So could it be just that? He needs the arguing to stop? Any and all confrontation. It can't be that easy. Any one else have experience like this?


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
He told me today that he knows nothing will change if he moves back home because things haven't changed at work. I'm still arguiing. So I simply said I was sorry he felt that way.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Lol feels like I'm talking to myself. But that's ok. It helps to come back and see how far I've come or not come. And what I still need to do in my life. So H and I had a new convo today. He was going on about how I was always argumentative and what not. And I validated. And he said pretending everything is going to be ok does make it ok. And I said I'm not pretending. I can agree with lots of things that you have said I have done wrong in the past. And some things I won't agree too. He said why would he come home since nothing has changed at work. So it will be the same at home. Everything the same. So I tried to explaining why I was upset. But I did a lot of validating and explaining that I have said things in anger that i don't actually believe. We even talked about memories and reminisced about some things. Over all I thought it productive. I learned some new things that he is still holding grudges about and upset about.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 3
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 3
You are not talking to yourself, just look at how many people have read your thread. 1000s :-) Maybe people are just not sure what to say? You seem to be doing well. When I read your updates, they are reasonable and you are making progress. Listening and validating is key--you are doing that! Pat yourself on the back and keep it up!

You might find that the posters that get a lot of responses are asking more questions and have more dilemmas. I don't get very many replies either, but I also don't ask for much. That and there are few posters that are actively piecing. Maybe posters don't quite know how to advise me.

Keep updating even if it takes people time to reply. Also, ask for advice and specific questions.

It sounds like today your H has revealed that he is afraid that the changes won't stick. That is good news in my mind because he is thinking about things with you. You are in a unique sitch where you work together and see him daily. You get to show him your changes often. The best way to prove change is to actually change your actions and do it consistently over time. Read Sandi's rules every morning before work--go in and be your best self--keep listening and validating. It could take a very long time, but that is okay.

Lastly, take time for you. It is easy to get wrapped up in measuring if he is going to coming back. We all focus on that in the beginning! Remember that true success is not about him and what he does, but about you. Do you feel good about you and your changes? Are you happy with your GAL and 180s? What do you want in life overall? Now you have to gift of time to pursue those things.

That attitude will also attract quality people towards you. If not him, then definitely someone else one day! You want someone that appreciates you for you.

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Henwen
I know I know. No R talks. But I asked H today if the reason he won't talk to the kids is because he wants me to make all the decisions. Even with the divorce itself he won't make a decision. I said i think it because you want me to be the bad person and then you can go around and say I pushed you out. And he said is that right. And I said yes. And he said he was just tired of all the arguiing. And that's what he says all the time. He's tired of the arguing. And that's why he initially left is because of the arguiing.

I believe poor conflict resolution skills is a factor in most divorces when you think about it. And you admit that you do not do conflict resolution in a way that he feels at peace with. So, I'd say take his words at face value until if/when he gives you reason to doubt it.



So could it be just that? He needs the arguing to stop?


In one major study, people were asked what they value most in their spouses.
Women said "security" (presumably financial and physical) and fidelity.

Men said what they most valued in their wives was "physical attractiveness" and "Peace". Fighting can wear people down and shut off emotions.




Any and all confrontation. It can't be that easy.


hen, when you say it "can't be that easy" I really don't get what you mean. Are you saying that you don't have a problem with changing the pattern, or that you have or that it is solved?

I mean, behavioral patterns are hard to break without conscious consistent effort and usually requires new tools. especially when the behaviors are associated with emotions.

Confrontation is not the same as conflict resolution. ALL relationships have conflict, parent/child, siblings, spouses, friends, etc. Some things can slide but most have to be worked out to mutual satisfaction OR one person will not be at peace with the result.

And that means resentment at some point, will arise. Often the "loser" of the conflicts ends up storing up grievances.

Are you in IC?




Any one else have experience like this?


Early in our marriage neither h nor I knew how to fight fair. We had terrible "attack & then retreat" models from our parents. We knew we had to fix that dynamic or end up like our parents.

For reasons unrelated, I attended a personal growth workshop that was profoundly life changing for me. Among the many important things I learned was much more lasting effective conflict resolution.

it was especially useful to learn these methods in calm times, b/c the tools were way more natural to use later on during times of heated conflict.

Anyhow, a few months after seeing changes in me, h decided to attend it. The most loving years of our marriage were the 15 years that followed the workshop. I wish we had gone back a few years ago, but that is water under the bridge. (FWIW it's called Essential Experience or "EE" and it's in Philadelphia. Some DBers have attended and they each found it powerful as well).

All I'm saying is that your H seems to believe you are in a rut of arguing. You need new tools. He thinks that if you two still fight at work, which is where he sees you, then he expects the same pattern at home. That is a reasonable belief, don't you think?

Typically, we tell the LBSers to use the time they have with WASs well. Think of things like kid drop offs, or mutual friend's events, sporting things of the kids, etc.

^^^Those are opportunities to show change. To show that the dynamic can improve.

& This dynamic can change.

Since you work together, in some ways you have a lot more of a chance to show change

but it can be easier to revert to what you know, which isn't helpful obviously.

Just know that when we repeat the same destructive behaviors, we hurt the cause.

So Hen, if he were to return home, what do you think would be different/better than before?

I'm Not saying this is "your fault". I'm just trying to brainstorm with you.

And He's not here trying to stay married.



M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Henwen
He told me today that he knows nothing will change if he moves back home because things haven't changed at work. I'm still arguiing. So I simply said I was sorry he felt that way.


So what are you doing to create a new dynamic in the m?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Thank you for your responses. After texting with him last night I know where my path lies. I need to stop arguing and be more reasonable. I'm going to search out how to resolve conflict more. And listen to actually hear him. Not just to respond. He said to me that he can't really take the kids because his house is so small. It is. It's a two bedroom and our daughter takes his room while she is there and he sleeps on the couch. He said if he takes them then he will need to sign a lease on a bigger house and he doesn't want to do that. His house he rents now has no lease. He can get out with two months notice at the moment. So I guess I repent for that. But like I said. He says he's done. But then he tells me that he can't come home because nothing willl change. And it's hard to wrap my head around not believing anything he says lol. And yes I am out GAL. I am just beginning to agility train my puppy. Which I love!!!! I am back working out again which is nice. And I try to fill my weekends with friends and stuff to do.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
if he's saying nothing will change if he comes home, I would NOT ask or probe ther. You don't want to corner him. The more you challenge his choices, the more he will feel forced to defend them, and then cement them. Make sense?

But yes I would see that "if I come home", as an opening for you to model the changes you want to make.

You can simply say that "if you had it all to do over again, you'd do many things differently."

That's not a doormat statement but it does show awareness of the need to change & willingness to do so.

As for GAL, I applaud any and all. My personal suggestion is to meet new people who don't know your m situation, which is stimulating and gets your mind OFF the m.

Maybe do something that you either always wanted to do but never got around to, or an old fun thing you have not done in a long time.

I've always been glad to have done this^^.

It's just that the inertia to stay in our caves and old ways, can be powerful, so we have to overcome that and we have to overcome the resistance to change.

See, even though we can know from others what NOT to do in times of conflict and heated emotions (like from our parents)

unless we replace those negative "do NOT do" behaviors, with

new positive ways of coping in healthy manner, we tend to resort to what we know when we are confronted with painful conflict.

And the cycle continues. But the cycle can be broken.

((( )))


Hang in there


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
I get the cementing thing. Today i kept it light and non argumentative. At work I listened and tried my best to get everything done on time. And he was in a much different mood. Happy and whistling. I guess sometimes I feel like if I act happy then he will think that I am ok with the separation and then he would feel no guilt. But yes who wants to be around a sullen moping person work for the day is almost done. Tomorrow is another day to get thru smile


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So another day done. And another day I succeeded. No arguments. There was an issue that usually gets my H overwhelmed. And sure enough he did. But normally I would get all is his space and tell him to calm down and tell him to grow up. But today I stepped up to the plate and hit a home run. I kept calm and gave him all the tools HE needed to succeed. And therefore I succeeded. I take it day by day. I have noticed little things this week with H. He is more calmer with me. Doesn't immediately jump to conclusions that everything is my fault. At BD he would leave work to do an out of area service call. And he would just say to me I am going to said town. He wouldn't tell me who he was doing the call for or anything. He would just leave it open ended for me to be insecure about and unsure. This week he will leave on a call and tell me where he is going and who he is with. He is leaving his phone unattended. Ever since I set some boundaries on the weekend and backed off him things have got better. It's hard not to look on the bright side and see how things have turned around. He could still never come back. But I'm going to continue on this path and see where it takes me. He doesn't text me in the evenings or weekends yet. But he is more amicable during the day while we are together. The insecure part of me thinks he's happier because I am not bothering him so he can move on happily. But the positive part of me thinks that this is a step forward. Either way I will be ok with out him. But it is nice to see this change. Here's to another day that I can succeed.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So today I did something I have always wanted to do. I took a level one course in Reiki healing. Loved it. Had such a fabulous time!!!


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
Good GAL!!

Keep it up and please keep the PMA - DB 101.

Btw, have you gotten an IC yet?

I don't think I could work with my h seeing him every day and not go nuts or blow it.

Keep at it!


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
I do have an IC. And yes I have blown it several times with H at work. Every day I get a bit better. I can't believe how I felt so out of control in the first few months after he left. I'm in a much better place now. And that's what I don't understand. Lol. I have even said to him that if this divorce is really wants he wants then let's get it over with so we can both move on. But he still stalemates. I bounce back from he just wants me to make the decision to he will eventually come home once he is assured the arguiing can stop. But really if he didn't come home I'd be sad but I would be ok. Today my parents came and picked me up for breakfast!! It was so nice to just see them.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
[quote=Henwen]I do have an IC. And yes I have blown it several times with H at work. Every day I get a bit better. I can't believe how I felt so out of control in the first few months after he left. I'm in a much better place now.


great news. ^^




And that's what I don't understand. Lol. I have even said to him that if this divorce is really wants he wants then let's get it over with so we can both move on. But he still stalemates.


why are you pushing for it if you don't want it and if you think it can be repaired with new dynamics and tools?

Maybe you can resist the urge to make those types of remarks.




I bounce back from he just wants me to make the decision to he will eventually come home once he is assured the arguiing can stop.


I think this^^ is both mind reading and hoping. What if you just worked on not fighting and learning to resolve disagreements the way you would at a table of beloved friends with different opinions? That would be a win, regardless of what your h may feel or do or plan


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
I guess I push is because if the divorce is something he truly wants then let's get it over with. Why wait? I'm not acting on those words. I say them here. I used to say them to him. Not anymore. I am a cool uninterested cucumber when I am around him right now. And yes after seeing what I saw this past week how I react and he reacts nice back I'm not going to set everything back 25 steps by arguiing again. That's one of the reasons I did the Reiki healing. Because I want to let go of the anger and resentment


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So yesterday he dropped the kids off and I was watering the lawn and he was talking to me and then he kind of just stood there as if he didn't want to leave but then said well good bye guys and left.

Today I have a question. Fall will be here before I know it. And that means schedules for the kids after school activities. So what do I do? Do I continue on driving the kids everywhere. That is something I have always done. Do I continue doing this because I want him home and I don't want to stress him. Or do I make him do his half of the driving and running around etc? And just go believeing him and treating him as if he is my ex? I'm confused as to
How to proceed with that. He has already said that he can't have the kids at his house full time one week as he has no room and he doesn't want to sign a lease. So do I just bide my time and wait for him to
Come around? My gf thinks he will come around and is on the verge of coming home. But if he's not I don't want him cake eating while I do all the kid running around.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,121
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,121
Originally Posted By: Henwen
So yesterday he dropped the kids off and I was watering the lawn and he was talking to me and then he kind of just stood there as if he didn't want to leave but then said well good bye guys and left.

Today I have a question. Fall will be here before I know it. And that means schedules for the kids after school activities. So what do I do? Do I continue on driving the kids everywhere. That is something I have always done. Do I continue doing this because I want him home and I don't want to stress him. Or do I make him do his half of the driving and running around etc? And just go believeing him and treating him as if he is my ex? I'm confused as to
How to proceed with that. He has already said that he can't have the kids at his house full time one week as he has no room and he doesn't want to sign a lease. So do I just bide my time and wait for him to
Come around? My gf thinks he will come around and is on the verge of coming home. But if he's not I don't want him cake eating while I do all the kid running around.


Hello Henwen,

You're working with a DB Coach, right?

I can see why negotiating the kids schedule would be confusing.

Please give me a call at 303-444-7004 and we can go ahead and get you scheduled to speak with your DB Coach.

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004


A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.

Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1

Remember you said you want to let go of the anger and resentment. Keep that in mind as you read your words and thoughts.

Beware of the score keeping, okay? It's very tempting yet, never, ever, helpful.


Originally Posted By: Henwen
So yesterday he dropped the kids off and I was watering the lawn and he was talking to me and then he kind of just stood there as if he didn't want to leave but then said well good bye guys and left.

sounds confused or at least uncomfortable.


Today I have a question. Fall will be here before I know it. And that means schedules for the kids after school activities. So what do I do? Do I continue on driving the kids everywhere. That is something I have always done.

so you have "always done" it, but...you want him to do more now? I'm not arguing, just trying to understand your reasoning.


Do I continue doing this because I want him home and I don't want to stress him. Or do I make him do his half of the driving and running around etc? And just go believeing him and treating him as if he is my ex?

If you need help, ask him to take one/2/3 of the kids to/from on a regular basis, or all 3 of them one or two days a week, etc.
As for believing him, what do you mean? Believe what? That he needs a break from stress?

Be as calm as someone who was sedated, behaves. Truly look into meditation b/c I sense your urgency from here. And I Get it!! You are afraid. And hurt.

Just saying that the anger and tension is so not your friend.

And who said to treat him like an ex?


I'm confused as to
How to proceed with that.


He has already said that he can't have the kids at his house full time one week as he has no room and he doesn't want to sign a lease. So do I just bide my time and wait for him to
Come around?

I'm sorry but what is the question^^ here? What are your goals? You want him to take the kids half time? Even though you don't want him to sign a lease, you also want him to have them overnight?

Don't push for certainty when there's no certainty- b/c you may end up cornering him into a place neither of you wants to be.



My gf thinks he will come around and is on the verge of coming home.


But if he's not I don't want him cake eating while I do all the kid running around.



First, this^^^ is like anticipatory score keeping. Lose the scorecard. You already said you have "always done" this so I don't know what it is you really want. It feels like you want control over what he does.

Are you more afraid of doing more than him, than you are of losing the m?

Second, to an extent all WAS/MLCers eat cake temporarily.

That is b/c they don't know if they want the marriage and the LBSer here, does know. That is inherently unbalanced - for awhile. I mean, he's not here to hash out a fair division of labor or to save the m. You are.

Calmly ask for help in transportation. Limit the requests, and be specific. Not vague "Do more!" complaints blurted out in frustration. And be ready to compromise. He may only be able to do X, not Y.

(I'm not a shrink, but the man sounds exhausted and depressed to me).


Model new behaviors.


the more you do ^^^that, the more likely you are to arrive at an equitable arrangement.

Have you found an IC to help with the anger management or conflict resolution?

Here is a gentle well intended 2 x 4.

I sense a lot of seething resentment in your posts, that spill over in your life at times. You have to address those are all of this will be so, so hard for you.

I think things can improve but without that underlying resentment issue addressed,

you'll be in the same place again.

How can you address that?

There was another poster here who had a similar issue. I will try to find her screen name (we met in RL). She is a passionate hard working Latina and her way of expressing anger was way more "get it all out" than her h's.

After 17 years of m, h shut down and wanted out. She was giving birth to their 3rd child. Shortly after, and presumably with more stress in the house, he found OW.

To her credit, she learned much better conflict resolution and is a calmer happier woman now. Kids are great. As of last month they have not reconciled. It has been a few years now.

But the behavioral pattern & her insights later on about what the fighting was doing to her h, are useful.

Tragic, but useful. She bounced back from the fighting, and didn't see it as criticizing so much as her "way of communicating". But for her h, it was emotionally sapping him.

Food for thought.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
time with the kids and your h


What about if you arrange 2 nights a week in which you will be out GAL and he can watch the kids or take them out.

Then be mysterious and upbeat and calm and serene. You could use a break anyhow.

What is home life like with the kids there? Are any of them having behavioral issues?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Henwen
I guess I push is because if the divorce is something he truly wants then let's get it over with. Why wait?


because 1) he does not know and 2) it's a life altering decision that most people struggle with.


I'm not acting on those words. I say them here. I used to say them to him. Not anymore. I am a cool uninterested cucumber when I am around him right now.

^^^Great to hear!


And yes after seeing what I saw this past week how I react and he reacts nice back I'm not going to set everything back 25 steps by arguiing again. That's one of the reasons I did the Reiki healing. Because I want to let go of the anger and resentment



a basic DB principle which, strangely is not stressed enough in "real life" is to

do more of what works and less of what doesn't.

Seems so simple, (and yet). We get stuck in what we think SHOULD work, or what we once thought would work...

and even in the face of a ton of evidence to the contrary, we tend to double down on behaviors that we think should work. It is hard, but it is not complicated.

We can be our own worst enemies. Keep posting.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Ok I read all your posts and processed them as best I could. I didn't mean make it like score keeping when I say that I do everything for the kids. But you are right. There is still resentment there for him not being a full time parent like I am. But he is still puts in more hours at work then I. And yes resentment for him cake eating. He would for sure take the kids any time I asked. He already does take them out to dinner one night a week. I have not said any of this to him in person. Right now I am mostly disinterested in his life and I keep calm when I am near him. The only child I see having issues is our daughter. She missed a lot of school last year because of this. We've talked and I hope things will be better this year. If not I will get her IC. Good point about doing more then him then saving the marriage. Definitely food for thought. Ok I will continue to model my new behaviour. And go out and do my GAL activities. Our break in August will be good for us. Hopefully he see that he misses being around me and our family. And if he doesn't. Then I will be ok with that.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Henwen
Ok I read all your posts and processed them as best I could. I didn't mean make it like score keeping when I say that I do everything for the kids. But you are right. There is still resentment there for him not being a full time parent like I am. But he is still puts in more hours at work then I. And yes resentment for him cake eating.


Turn this^^ around. What if HE said "I work way harder than w, and she resents ME?"


Where is the "cake eating", btw? I'm serious b/c if he's working longer hours, to enable you to go home, how is that cake eating? I'm not saying you are taking it easy by any means.

I'm just wondering if you can see HIS point of view.


He would for sure take the kids any time I asked.
He already does take them out to dinner one night a week. I have not said any of this to him in person.


Sounds really good. So what is it you have not said to him?


Right now I am mostly disinterested in his life and I keep calm when I am near him.

This ^^ is great.



The only child I see having issues is our daughter. She missed a lot of school last year because of this. We've talked and I hope things will be better this year. If not I will get her IC.

any chance you can get her into IC now? There's no school and she's already had problems. I don't mean to guilt you!!

I'm thinking out loud that I waited too long with our d19 and until I saw actual damage, I didn't get it.

And damage is sort of hard to undo. Would have been better for me to help her turn the corner before she hit that wall.



Good point about doing more then him then saving the marriage
. Definitely food for thought.

meaning, that measuring when he's not even on board saving the m, isn't a great use of our time. Is that what you meant?

Also, btw, sometimes we forget that our spouses have their own scorecards. They measure things differently than we do, and we have not seen their viewpoint at times. We might be very surprised at the scoring process they use, and or their resentments...

On their score cards, we are rarely ahead.



Ok I will continue to model my new behaviour. And go out and do my GAL activities. Our break in August will be good for us. Hopefully he see that he misses being around me and our family. And if he doesn't. Then I will be ok with that.


You can do this. Keep at it and DO get some tools. Undoing our old habits and customs is very hard.

Usually takes outside help and there is no shame in that. Seriously.

((( )))


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
I have outside help. I see an IC. And I will get my D into seeing her. Yes I agree he is resentful of me going home to be with the kids. He always says I'm a part timer. I guess I just find it hard. Like today. He is sick and grumpy and miserable to me. It is taking everything in me to continue to be calm and not react. Because I know he isn't feeling well. It's frustrating to know that if I acted the same way he would be all over me. Just one of those days today where everything is bugging me. Yes I am getting my IC to help me to overcome my resentment. And I have come a long way. And you are right. He is tired and depressed. I guess I am also at the point where it's hard to not believe everything he says and if he says he wants it to end. Then I am at the point where I think what is the sense of dragging things on. I get it it gives me space to work on me and ultimately things will improve either way. Yes I work on myself everyday and I find it is flowing into other aspects of my life. I am way more patient with my kids. And I am more present in their lives and for that I am so thankful. And if it wasn't for this separation I never would have seen myself for who I was. And never would have had the chance to change who I am.

I am frustrated because I have not been arguiing with him and kept things really mellow and good. Now today he is in a bad mood and everything is my fault again. So all the good I have done is gone in his mind because of him being sick and in a bad mood. Just voicing my disjointed thoughts.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
So a question. Tomorrow will be the last time I see H until September. He's taking the kids on a month long vacation. Do I wish him a good trip? Or do I not say anything?


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Henwen
So a question. Tomorrow will be the last time I see H until September. He's taking the kids on a month long vacation. Do I wish him a good trip? Or do I not say anything?


Sure. You are an upbeat positive happy woman, with fun things planned for YOU and new interesting people to meet. Don't present your needs to your h, but your best self.

I think you should wish them all well and give him something to miss.

No down side to this^^ that I can see.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Ok I figured as much. Wasn't too sure about the NC and wishing him at good vacation


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Hard night tonight. H is a wedding of what I thought were mutual friends. They only invited him. I'm having hard time thinking of him dancing with other women. I am sure friends are asking him to dance. And yes I'm having a hard time detaching from that. I did plan activities today to take my mind off it. But now I'm home and it's all I'm thinking about. Going to play mindless games on my phone until I can fall asleep.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Henwen
Hard night tonight. H is a wedding of what I thought were mutual friends. They only invited him. I'm having hard time thinking of him dancing with other women. I am sure friends are asking him to dance. And yes I'm having a hard time detaching from that. I did plan activities today to take my mind off it. But now I'm home and it's all I'm thinking about. Going to play mindless games on my phone until I can fall asleep.


Well, That's not easy. In that respect I'm very glad my h is "far away in another land..." He has a whole new fan base and I only know one of them well, and she's my friend more than his.


For sleep issues, Try the free meditation app on your phone "Insight timer" or "headspace" or "10% Happier" or "Calm" or "Pacifica". I know Insight timer is free.

I never meditated before, but now I listen every night and if I waken at 4am, especially with gross nightmares, it also helps. It's Fast acting and I'm not groggy in the morning.

As for other women asking him to dance, don't assume it's b/c they are trying to seduce him so much as hoping to offer solace. It's social awkwardness they want to avoid, I assume.

What exactly do they all know? Did they witness you two arguing?

And your kids are near him, correct? Look, I've been to 2 weddings since separation and it's not where I'd expect to meet a new man. These are family and close friends around, used to seeing me as part of a couple. I would think they are not going to immediately try and replace my h for me.


Try to detach from what you have no control over, b/c it makes life a lot easier. And it will help you in this scenario a lot. Trying to manipulate the outcome or control the results is not productive.

Drop the rope so you don't wonder about what actions to take to affect your h. There's nothing useful for you to do in this situation, other than detaching and GAL as best you can.

((( )))



M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
Today I made a mistake. When he picked up the kids I didn't even look at him. I don't know why I feel that going to this wedding was a betrayal to me. I know a large part was jealousy. And that resentment again. He hates wedding s and I went to a lot myself because he wouldn't go. And this one he goes to because his friends wanted him there. So today I just relaxed and let myself feel those feelings and worked thru them and got thru them. I didn't let them control me or my actions.

Thank you 25 for all your help.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
Likes: 1
tomorrow is a new day. Start again.

Sometimes it's about being happy, not being right. Anger is not serving you
, but maybe b/c it's so quick as your first option to correct a problem, it seems as if it's the correct option,

your h attending the wedding was not a betrayal of you. Having fun is not a betrayal of you. The rest of what you imagine might not have happened. Drop the rope and don't pick it up again!!

This does get easier with practice.

((( )))


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
H
Henwen Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 147
I am seriously trying to drop the rope. I think that maybe just giving up and letting him go his way will be better for all. I won't be jealous anymore or angry. I will have just finally given up. So I told him. If this is what he wants then let's get lawyers in the fall when he comes back and close this chapter. I'm just not healing in limbo. I love him and I want him back. But it's like a band aid that I just keep ripping off and exposing the wound. He looked like he was going to cry when I told him that we can close this chapter in September. But honestly. He keeps telling me he's never coming back and having hope is killing me.


Me: 41 H: 45
T:21 yrs
S:16 D: 13 S: 12
BD: October 2016
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78

Last edited by Cadet; 08/09/17 05:52 AM. Reason: Link

Me-70, D37,S36
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11

Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard