25yearsmlc 10 Yrs Later I File D part 3

[25yearsmlc]

Previous thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...011#Post2740011

I went up to see d19 (youngest) in Boston for Mother's Day.

I had seen my 2 oldest in CA the week before, due to GDC (Gross Div Crap) and despite the nature of that visit, we really had some heavy discussions.
Productive, but painful.

Friday night the same happened with my youngest. Lots of discussions, much of it painful as I owned my own role in the family dynamic that caused her to feel scapegoated at times

She brought up how h and I (and sometimes her much older siblings) would discuss her pot smoking, and her anger.

Her recent point was, "why didn't we talk about how dad was living away during the week, AGAIN"??? She felt the elephant in the room was avoided

Which is a damn fair point.

I felt like I owned a lot, some of which might not be true but IS HER perception. And she appreciated that. She and her dad do Not get along as she informs me that

she told him, "you said you want a R with me. Fine. I need from honesty from you, and you are not able to do that without professional help, bc you distort reality to fit yours."

Ouch...

ANYHOW then Saturday came and some protests happened in Boston.

MY Kid got punched in the face by some idiot (a$$) and they were both arrested.

I must say, this is an experience I've never had...bailing my kid out of jail, then staying another night in Boston, and showing up for the arraignment.

The bully a$$ did not show up, so there's a warrant for his arrest and evidently he has 2 other similar charges in other states b/c this is what he does. He brags online that he does this and that he drank "all" his vodka before the rally.

He's twice the size of my d19

and the good news is, it's all on film.

FTR, I don't share my d19's politics. Neither does h, for sure.

but So what? As a mother, I can only grimace at the photo of a guy twice her size throwing a punch at her with a soda can in his hand. She ducked away and it was a glancing blow but -

WHAT IF???? WTF?? It's really good that I wasn't there b/c I'm not sure I would not have been arrested too...seeing a guy that size hit MY kid...OMG...

And no, I did not call h b/c I was not asked to...

very mixed feelings there. On one hand, I was relieved not to have to calm HIM down or hear him discuss 1) the costs to HIM for this 2) the politics of it, or how 3) HE better not be blamed for ....whatever.

it's not about him.
It's about her, but never mind me bailing her out or staying the weekend for an arraignment and being up all night getting the film printed out, etc. H would assume I'd do that, as it's a given in h's mind. God, how true that is and when I write it out I shake my head. My needs in that marriage were not met for some time. I need to remind myself of this more often. The past few years, we had our moments. But other times, more often than not, I did all the heavy lifting in our marriage. And I let that happen.




But I would have liked his support. Wow, thing is, I would not have gotten it. I would have been peace maker again. OR he'd go into crisis mode and again, I'd have had to calm HIM down.

Now that we may have to hire a local attorney (I can't honestly say I'd be a real help given that I'm not licensed there. BTW, that state has some archaic procedures that were things I had not heard in 30 years if ever. "Oh ye, Oh ye">>>> seriously?)

I know one thing...it'll cost...

Could have been so much worse and I know that. She's bruised and will have a record if we don't take care of this. God knows what would happen if she were sharing a cell.

As for the assailant, I feel a maternal anger I've not felt since my son was sucker punched in 6th grade. But this is also fear based b/c d19 is openly gay and she's small, like Peter Pan.

And this horrible bully, targeted her, harassed her, flattened her and tried to punch her hard...

(In fairness to the police I do think they arrested both people b/c there were 2 volatile groups and I guess they figured it would sort itself out later, which is true. But costly and traumatic).

Should I have called h? I don't know. D19 did not ask me to (in her one phone call from jail) and the older kids were like "God, no."

It's not actually the first thing I've handled without h as a parent. Since we've separated and he's been on his adventure, it's actually the second.

Our s30, got very sick in early April. Apparently you can get "rhabdomyolysis" from over exertional exercise and that means your kidneys are behind the curve ball. Your limbs get weirdly enlarged (and though s30 is buff, he's not Popeye).

H is an MD. But when I suggested that s30 call his dad before s30 decides NOT to go to the ER,

s30 said they were "not on speaking terms"

But s30 did go into the ER & got treated. I just didn't know for a fact that h was not in close contact with s30. That's probably the most valuable r has in our family.

On Mother's Day, d19 wished me a Happy Mother's Day on fb (I was nearby, but still) and thanked me for raising her...I assume that's a dig at h, but it's fair too.

I'm exhausted and sad for my youngest. I worry she'll be targeted a lot in life. She is so very angry at h, at all his views, at everyone who she believes is like h. That cannot be good for her.

The moron who assaulted her is NOT h. I know this. You know this.

But d19 sees this^^^ all as related...it's a "white men over 40 bad"...I understand that, but it makes me sad (and no, I do not agree.)

On the other hand, from what I hear from s30 and d28, h's political views have become quite extreme.

Political differences were not that big with us, b/c we mostly agreed. I was always more diplomatic (always)

but I did notice a lot of anger in his views towards the end of our time together.

Sometimes I see a connection. Some strange dynamic wherein he came to demonize me as part of the "system" denying him his adventure.


SIDENOTE - d19 informed me that last summer h told her I would "come running up to Alaska eventually"... God, how annoying that is.

Driving back to DC from Boston, I finally arrived in my new place. My new "home".

And I felt overwhelmed like I could not take anymore.

But I don't know what that ^^^ means. I'm not crazy, I'm not suicidal, I'm running off to Europe (though suddenly that has appeal!)

and I'm not crying. Maybe I should, but I don't seem able to. Weird.

I'm furious about my d19 getting attacked, of course. I'm lonely not having a partner or co-parent sharing this with me. That makes me feel like I'm ready to be dating, btw.

In my head I still revisit how horrible h was when I was hospitalized (here in my hometown on a trip).

H didn't come out to get me till AFTER my doctor said I could not travel alone. My family was aghast. Then h left me in CA in a haze a few days later. I was unable to drive and only knew 2 people locally...how could he feel okay about THAT??? My gut says, he simply does not revisit that at all. How could he defend that?

I'm tired of feeling sad and angry, too. In my head, I know what I have to do.


Maybe I cannot think my way out of this pain. I have to face it, feel it, get through it and somehow just get past it. Like I said, in my head, I know what I have to do (getting out and getting life really do matter, and really do make a huge difference).


but there is a wearing down by the GDC, the health issue I have to constantly be mindful of, starting my career back up, taking care of my d19's issues, b/c she really does struggle with depression and anxiety,

(and I still need to be there for my older kids b/c they are in pain. I will always be their mom and I do not want THEM to be worried for ME as if they are the parent.) I know they want me to date but their reasons are mixed and not all right for me.

I think I'm ready to meet & "Date".

But to really have a relationship seems like you'd just be distracting yourself. Maybe that's good.??

I mean, how could you not compare your new Person, to the stbx?

As much pain as you're in, that means for awhile the OP will be "better than" the soon to be ex b/c God knows you want that to be true.

But there will be times that cannot be true. I mean, the jokes, the history -bad AND good- and the things you really did have in common, cannot all be exceeded in the new person. I'm attractive and smart and funny....

Maybe it's all about the new OP being in the adoring phase b/c God knows, I am not and neither are the kids.

No one in our nuclear family adores or admires what h has done. Since h needs that, perhaps he's right to start over in a r where he can get the admiration he so desperately craves. Hmmm, who am I to know or judge?

So back to ME...


Feelings won't spontaneously change with new wording. I must function, I must MUST get thru the GDC and I need to create a new life.

I need to see this and embrace this as a positive transformative experience in my life.

Oh, btw, I got no money from h this month, so that's nice.





M: 57 H: 60
M: 35+ yrs
S30,D28,D19
H goes ALASKAN, 2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille & M Restored 8/08
UPDATE
10 YRS pass
H to Alaska Again
like Groundhog Day
I file D 10/16
OW

[leahsue]

Hey 25,
You had a rough go of it on M Day weekend!
I had to take several DEEP breaths as I read your post, especially the parts about D19 being attacked. (If you'll read my last post in my thread you'll see what I mean.) I'm glad she wasn't hurt any worse physically, but now that whole scenario is stuck in your head. I've always believed that mothers really can't be any happier than their unhappiest child. And only mothers really "get" that statement.
I hear so much much sadness, and fear, and weariness in your post. That makes me so sad. You are so valuable and have given so much to this forum. I want you to be OK!
Do some radical self-care and love for 25 today.
When I get down, I like to say to myself those beautiful words from The Help- "You is kind. You is smart. You is important."
((((((25)))))))

[Sotto]

Hi 25, I'm so sorry you had such a rough weekend & what a horrible thing to happen. It's not surprising you got back to your new place and felt overwhelmed. I can remember feeling the same and the feelings do pass.

As for dating - actually I just passed my 'one year out from divorce' timescale and so I achieved what I set out to do in terms of waiting before dating...not that I feel that interested in OLD or similar just now....but if someone nice asked me out I might be open.

I hope you don't mind me saying, but you sound so much in the maelstrom of divorce proceedings and still raw - too early to think about dating IMHO. Though people do start at your stage and each to their own of course. Though I never saw one person post and say - heck I wish I'd started dating sooner. But I have seen many people post that they did start too soon - before they were ready and could start a healthy relationship.

My advice would be - wait to date, deal with business, keep the forward movement and plan new things just for you - activities you will enjoy, outings with friends etc. Enjoy making your new place your own and look after yourself during this trying period. It too shall pass..

Xx

[Accuray]

Sorry about your rough weekend but glad that you got some quality connecting time with your daughter! I have an 18 year old daughter and that is a volatile time in terms of figuring out what you stand for.

I think I'm ready to meet & "Date".

But to really have a relationship seems like you'd just be distracting yourself. Maybe that's good.??

I mean, how could you not compare your new Person, to the stbx?

As much pain as you're in, that means for awhile the OP will be "better than" the soon to be ex b/c God knows you want that to be true.

But there will be times that cannot be true. I mean, the jokes, the history -bad AND good- and the things you really did have in common, cannot all be exceeded in the new person. I'm attractive and smart and funny....

I'm two years into a post-D relationship, FWIW you're ready to date when you feel it's time. "Dating" can be done on many levels, from just having a nice conversation with someone over coffee to actively seeking a new life partner. There are no rules for where you should be on that spectrum and people interested in dating at all points on that spectrum.

Dating is both wonderful and terrifying, from my perspective the worst part was telling people you didn't want to continue dating them, that was far worse than getting rejected IMO.

I did not have any issues with comparing new relationships to exW, each person is so different and each relationship has such different dynamics, its truly apples and oranges.

What I did gain, through the benefit of the rearview mirror, is that I put up with too much for too long. I paid a heavy tax for exW's unaddressed issues and there is so much more room for joy in a relationship than I experienced the first time around.

In this relationship I'm well beyond the honeymoon phase, and it has it's own challenges, but they are different ones and better suited to how I want to live.

I know people talk about the fact that second marriages have a lower success percentage. I'm not sure that's a bad thing -- I think people go in the second time around with the knowledge that divorce is totally survivable and that makes you less willing to tolerate abuse than you might be otherwise. Ideally it would lead you to make better choices to begin with in a partner but life doesn't always work that way.

In any case, take your time, wade into the shallow end of the dating experience whenever you feel you are ready, embrace it and enjoy it, you will be a prize to be won!

Acc

[OwnIt]

25--I love what Accuray had to say about second marriages. That makes a lot of sense and I've never thought about it that way. But I'm still never getting remarried. I'm not having any more kids and I'm financially independent. I always want to be able to just point at the door. I think this is what comes from being a doormat for 25 years.

I'm quite appalled by what happened to your D. I imagine the two of us probably have less faith in the legal system than most. Let us hope that justice does indeed prevail here.

My D13 is reading the Inferno. I have to believe that Dante has a special place for people like your STBX. He sure is a piece of work. I think he has forgotten about how strong his enemy is though. I think that will bite him in the you know where before this is all over.

If you do decide to begin dating, I hope you have some lovely experiences and attract the kind of folks you won't. I think it is a much faster world than long-married monogamous people like us are used to. I dipped my toe in during a January pity party where I believed the things he said to me, but quickly realized I am nowhere near ready to go there.

[25yearsmlc]

d19 seems upset but calmer, and we are regrouping to figure out an effective way to handle any legal issues/ramifications and costs...(No money from h at all this month and only half from last month. He's waiting me out I guess. Says HE has retired, and also, wants me to work.

I wonder if he'll want me to pay HIM spousal support. Is OW advising this or his dad or who, b/c h is very bitter and very into seeing himself as the victim of a "toxic" m.
This is what he told our d19.

WTF?? News to me. We were on national tv about how "Solid m's survive political differences"....that's the m i was in.

I know I should not be baffled. I KNOW THIS! Yet I shake my head at HIS utter lack of remorse or shame at how badly he treated me the last year.

The lies...OMG....

ANYHOW back to d19, I THINK this will turn out fine in the long run but it's such a lousy unfair thing and truly, she's the most angry of the kids, the one with the worst r with h, and I have to wonder how this will eventually play out in her heart.

All I can do is affirm her. And let her r with her dad, be their problem. She claims she hates him but they engage, and I don't know for sure that it's solely b/c he's supposed to pay her tuition. I mean, down deep she must want to believe he loves her, no matter what she says...right?

While I can marry someone else (in theory, I mean) and "replace" my h, d19 will always only have one father. I know, I know, not my problem.

back to me and my life...

as I said, last weekend would have been really nice to have had a supportive partner with me. Not just for Mother's Day, but for the whole d19 arrest and ordeal...but I didn't and in reality I probably have not had a supportive partner for a lot of the last few years. My mom died suddenly and for a week or two, h was supportive and quite sad on his own.
---

Every time I think I'd like to casually date it's

1) for fun in the present and b/c I often like male company and I'd casually date because

2) in order to someday, down the road, to be for a real relationship....

then I read posts of post divorce break ups & the pain involved to DBers and I wonder.


Look, I know there are triggers that would end things for me in a minute, and without much or any regret on my end. Not sure of all of them obviously

but if the "new guy" were to be controlling about food issues, I'd just uber home.

I'd probably say "Hey, my exh was rigid about his diet and what others, including me, ate. I can see it's important to you, but it's a deal breaker for me, so we should end this now. Nice to meet you, bye".

I hope and believe that if I can end a 35 year marriage that was once a beautiful thing, that created 3 important young people, surviving the end of a lovely family

and still be alright, and lose my mom and see my last child off to college the same month and have a life changing medical ;problem the following month and move cross country...

then only the death of a close loved one would hurt me more.


My "fear" would be that I could spend 10 years or whatever the dating years I have left are,

and then lose the relationship. What then? Being alone for the "rest of my life"??

I don't hate being alone, and I have a lot of family and long time friends in this area.

So I'd have had another relationship that would have provided SOME or a lot of good things, (or it would not have lasted long.)

I'm sure I'd hold back on fully trusting my life/heart with someone, for some time.

But that feels more healthy to me.

feedback?

[kml]

Some observations from my years of post-divorce dating:

- the right time to date is when YOU are ready. If you're still pining for h ex or susceptible to reconciliation, you're not ready - it would be unfair to a new person. But if you're sure you're done - and have, like you and I, done everything already to save your marriage and are truly ready to let go - there's no magic time or number.

- After the breakup of my long marriage, none of the things that have happened in my dating life have been too distressing. Also the strength and resilience I learned through DBing put me in good stead.

- Although some would say I wasted four valuable dating years on Mr. Tall Dark and Handsome who turned into Mr. Sociopath Ex-Boyfriend, I don't see it as wasted. I had a lot of good times during those years before I found out the truth about him. And I realize I'm NOT actually that focused on finding a forever mate - it may happen, but even if it did, he could die of a heart attack. Therefore my goal is to be happy and fulfilled in my own life and friendships and family - as I am - and a guy is just the cherry on top. Nice, but not essential to my happiness.

- the thing that has brought me the most fulfillment after my divorce was not my dating life - although I had many great moments - but learning to play the drums and developing a great musical hobby. If I was forced to choose between the two, I'd take music and performing over another man any day!

- dating after divorce was an incredibly affirming thing for me. Even though none of the men turned out to be right for a variety of reasons, one thing was constant - not ONE of them could figure out how my ex could have been so stupid as to let go of me. Even the guys who were LOve Avoidant themselves and not available for a long term relationship thought I was GREAT and that my ex must have a screw loose. And not one of them thought I walked heavy either!

[25yearsmlc]

DATING

I do wake up some days and I just want to go back to bed. (Thank God my dog is insistent about needing to go out. I'm on the 4th floor so, you know, we have to go OUT.)

Some other DBers discuss this ordeal and how it can lead to a form of PTSD - and that it affects later dating.

I know my life is on a much different trajectory than it was even just a year ago. I'd never have believed this is where I'd be or how the past 8 months have gone. When I step back, objectively, at the number of dramatic changes in such a short time happening, I'm more at peace with a PTSD diagnosis for now.

Some men asked me out right when I got here, which was maybe 2 months after separation and a horrific hospital stay.

I was actually offended by this. I found it insulting to my m that someone would assume I could be ready to actually date.

They were men who divorced long ago, and or from short m's, who would assume I'd be ready to date them, then. It kind of made me believe their own m's must have meant very little to them.

(I'm not defending my feelings, just admitting them here.)

Anyhow, meeting men NOW, and getting asked out is different. It depends very much on the man & speed at which he'd want the R to move. I could not go fast, and trust it. Maybe that's just me & my position of what constitutes "fast/enough time."

INSIGHT - a guy from high school ("S") expressed interest in dating me, and has repeated it a few times. BTW, We briefly dated in 9th grade (literally).

In his recall, we "dated & fell in love at too young an age."

This version ^^ is fine I guess, as we all have our own narratives (his version is bigger & more flattering to me than I would have imagined). He's definitely pushing for way too much way too fast. It's obvious and I have gently said so, at least 3 times.

And FYI, "S" is a kind, smart attractive guy. And he's really into being a good dad. So he's not some "jerk".

Anyhow, I asked S how long it took him to date after he and his w "split," 10 years ago (i didn't define sep or Div in the question).

He said "3-4 days"...

Okay. I literally laughed b/c I assumed he was joking.
( I mean, "good one!", right? )

Then he blurted out "I was so lost and hurt...just seeking solace. They didn't mean anything."

Later he and his w recon for a year, before finally divorcing.

What I took from this^^ disclosure is that "S" is very needy, terrified of being alone, AND that he is presumably very high maintenance, emotionally. Huge turn off for me.

IF I did not know him before, I'd have thought he was an a$$ and I'd have probably assumed he had cheated on his w, (which I actually don't believe).

AND S is a very decent person. (He was an only child, & learned he was adopted in high school, when his adoptive "father" died.)

So maybe his "Dating" OW's within days of his separation from his w, is more about this abandonment issues --- but - whatever. See what I"m doing??

I mean, who he is & what he does, not why, is what matters.


IF we were to try and reason WHY someone is how they are, or WHY they treat us badly, (even if we were accurate in assessing the original causes)

reminds me a lot of obsessing about MLC/WAS and narcissism and what's real, what's an excuse, and whether we can hope for more or better from them, etc.

I want it to be simple and hope it can be, in this respect.

How we are treated = whether we are loved & respected in ways WE need & want,

and whether/how we give love & respect to the other,

are the only criteria, aren't they? Can't it be natural and evolving?

Christ, sure seemed like it was 35 years ago...

Make sense?

[25yearsmlc]

crossed posts KML

I'll read and reply more later...

(Thank God you found men who didn't mind how you clomp around)

[Accuray]

Hi 25yrsmlc,

Like you its important to me to have appropriate boundaries about "what is and what is not your business" when it comes to relationship partners. It sounds like your H's position on diet was extreme if he was dictating what you could and could not eat. I think you'll find that type of attitude is far outside the norm.

As I was in a relationship for 20 years, there were many aspects of it that I just came to accept as "the way people are" or "the way relationships are" and one of the most refreshing things about dating has been learning that is not the case at all.

My current girlfriend has strong opinions on food choices, water usage, cleaning products, etc. It's been important for me to set a boundary that she can eat/clean/use water however she likes in a manner consistent with her beliefs and its not my place to comment on that. Conversely, its not her place to comment on what I choose to eat or what I choose to clean with. It is of course appropriate to respectfully make your opinions known, but that's where things need to end. As long as you establish your boundaries early in a relationship and are with a rational, respectful partner you'll be totally fine.

My "fear" would be that I could spend 10 years or whatever the dating years I have left are, and then lose the relationship. What then? Being alone for the "rest of my life"??

What's the alternative? Being alone now for the rest of your life? I think one difference between being single in your 20's and being single in your 40's - 60's is that there are no longer any "rules" or expectations about what you "should" be doing. You're free to chart your own course in a way that works for you and anyone else is far less likely to question your motivations.

Therefore, if you want to have one 10 year relationship, 10 1-year relationships, or no relationship for 10 years, it's all good, you're totally free to live the life you want to live.

Worrying about a relationship ending 10 years from now is borrowing trouble from the future right? From my perspective a relationship that lasts 10 years is a successful relationship, even if it ends, and there's a lot of value you'll gain from it and be able to keep.

I don't hate being alone, and I have a lot of family and long time friends in this area.

That's great! You want to be dating because you want to share your life versus because you feel you *need* to fill a void.

So I'd have had another relationship that would have provided SOME or a lot of good things, (or it would not have lasted long.)

Well look what you've gained from your experience here right? You've become something of a student of relationships. You're not going to be entering into a new relationship as a naive 22 year old seeking a fairy tale romance right?

This time around you'll see through someone's shortcomings far more easily, and be much less likely to make excuses for them or try to convince yourself you can look beyond them. Why would you? Who has time for that?

This time around you can be *very* discriminating and have the value of the wisdom you've accumulated in deciding who to get involved with.

When I went to MC the MC was talking to me about the dating population. He said that no one is really "perfectly emotionally healthy", but there is a spectrum where some people are pretty dysfunctional and others are pretty self actualized.

He said that if you look at failed marriages, there are those where both partners were dysfunctional, those where one partner was dysfunctional and the other was self actualized, or situations where two self-actualized people respectfully decide they don't want to be together anymore and go their separate ways.

For people who ended relationships due to pain related to dysfunction, some people are going to do the work to improve their coping skills and their behavior, and other people are not and are going to take the same problems into relationship after relationship.

Wouldn't you agree that you're savvy enough at this point to be able to tell if you're with someone who is significantly dysfunctional after spending just a couple hours with them? Even someone who is marginally dysfunctional you're going to figure it out after a few more hours. Therefore, your odds are pretty good that you're going to avoid getting involved with those people in any significant way and end up with someone who is pretty emotionally healthy right?

I think when you do, you'll find it to be a huge relief and it will paint some of the things that you had to deal with in your 35 year relationship into stark contrast.

I'm sure I'd hold back on fully trusting my life/heart with someone, for some time.

But that feels more healthy to me.

I would hope so!

I do have some friends who are single women in their 50's who have just given up on dating. For the most part, they've just talked themselves out of it, either by convincing themselves that "there are no good men out there", or its not safe to meet men, or they don't feel they're desireable, etc. etc.

Some of them don't seem to care or miss having a companion around, which is fine, but others seem persistently bothered by it and that is a tragedy.

It's definitely worth putting yourself out there -- people can be so amazing and have so much to contribute to your life. When you're ready, go for it!

Acc

[FightOn]

25 -

I am sorry to hear about D19's legal troubles. Let's hope the prosecutor, state's attorney, deputy district attorney, or whatever they are called in Boston has a good head on their shoulders and can discern a righteous case from a non-righteous one. From my perspective (btw, I am a prosecutor), your daughter's situation should be easy to untangle and the case dismissed. Unfortunately, you might have to wade through the process a little bit before it gets to that point.

As for dating, well, I can't offer you any words of wisdom on that one since I'm not there yet. So, for what it's worth, if all you want to do is dip your toe in to see how the water feels, I can't see how it could hurt. Maybe my view is to simplistic and not taking into account all the issues surrounding being a LBS, but a date is just a date. It's nothing more.

The events of the last eight months have been horribly unfair. I wish I could take you out for a pedicure and some drinks (and if you can't drink alcohol, then some good food instead). Please take care of yourself.

[Cristy]

Hello 25yearsmlc,

I'm so sorry that your D19 is in this legal trouble. Hopefully they get the guy! Keeping my fingers crossed that the tape will speak for itself and the charges against your D19 will be dropped. The silver lining is that you were there and able to help in her time of need. She'll remember that!

I wish you the very best.

Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks everyone.

I appreciate the support, I really do.

Fight, yes I think the case will ultimately be dropped but as you say, it'll be several steps down the process b/c that's how it is. The court was packed for other cases and we had no opportunity to present any of our evidence to just get it dropped before arraignment. Ugh..

The name of the guy was in the paper and he was arrested, but did not show up for court. So there's a warrant for his arrest (and 2 other warrants out of state for the same type of charge. This is what this moron does). Oh, and yes d19 was on the front page with her name and our old address (thank God it's the old address).

My d19 still has to deal with this system and make sure her record ends up clean. Hey, maybe she'll decide to be a lawyer...
(um, now that I write that^^ out, I am feeling WORSE!)

Accuracy--

RE dating and my comment about "a 10 year 'waste of time'" was meant sarcastically b/c

if I were to have a R with someone of more than a few months, it would have to be meeting some of my needs or it would end. So a r of 10 years would be, by definition a good thing. IF it were to end badly, that would stink...but I will absolutely be more sensitive to issues and there will be NO rug sweeping again.

I agree that it doesn't take those of us over 30, all that long to get past the attraction factor to see what's a really authentic difference, versus minor issues (and I agree that we ALL have our issues, but we had them when we were 20, too. Maybe we were more flexible or still forming then).

But if there's a deal breaker anywhere in the r, then the deal is broken. I am at peace with knowing I'll never have invested the creation of a family and all the education we attained and the decades we spent together,

and thus, will not accept so much I don't want or need to, again.

Any lies, even small ones about being late "too much traffic, or the boss/friend delayed me", would end the r.


My h always took good care of his physique, (which I appreciated & said). I did too but a hurt knee did hinder my jogging, so I put on 10-15 lbs over the last decade. I'm not fat. As Objectively as I can say, I'm considered attractive. (The self esteem and ego have taken hits there, I admit. H was not subtle when he gave me a fitbit for my birthday and it's not something I asked for. Nice...)

But you'd think I was fat by hearing h. Anyhow, his latest diet regimen of the past 2-4 years, became another one of his eccentric obsessions. Without belaboring the point, he was simply a fanatic, giving out Paleo books to every family member and literally hiding disapproved foods, scowling at the "wrong" ones and asking for HIS dinner not to include key ingredients b/c his way was better and there was no real alternative. Like there was no room to agree to disagree, he'd act as if he was tolerating our wrongness.

It was hard for him not to comment on other people's weight - privately- but even people on TV, he could not help himself.. His OW is quite thin, btw.


He did some pretty weird things like putting all the grains up in a box I could not see or reach and when I discovered that I pointed out how weird and over the line that was but I didn't "reach him". And I didn't make a big deal out of that, which I NOW see as sooooo crazy.

I introduced him to 2 Ayn Rand books 8 years ago and instead of just reading them and appreciating them, he went hog wild and read ALL her books and then all the related books and accepted every single thing she wrote was gospel,

And Ayn Rand was an atheist and so, then h was an atheist.

Now, I'm pretty open minded about religion but I DO Have beliefs. If I were dating, I would not date an adamant atheist.

But I was married to a man who became one...yikes.

anyhow,

KML said something about not dating until I'm 100% sure I don't want a recon.

Is anyone ever truly sure they don't want their former spouse (the one they loved) back? I detest the vision of seeing my first grandchild and not being able to share it with the other grandparent.

Or their graduations and weddings...with OW?? Gross. And even when I'm with some OM, it'll be weird.

Knowing that h could have been honest with me a decade ago, and really work on himself and that WE COULD HAVE MADE IT WORK

but h did not do any work on himself. As far as I know, none...and I let that happen too.

2/3 of my life was as h's wife. H HAS CHANGED for sure, and our 3 kids saw this before I did.

I know, I know, "never say never."

But when i look realistically at who h has become, as far as I can tell he's got such a weird BS narrative that I didn't even know what his legal pleading was referring to in maybe 1/3 of it, and another 1/3 was just so weird and distorted, and the last 1/3 was whining...

So I don't really know when it happened b/c it's more insidious than you might think, like a liquid that seeps in around the door frame. And it is NOT all a linear thing (sometimes h was his old self and I'd feel a lot safer, then another change or rigid position would reveal itself)

but yeah, when I SEE HIM as he is now, and for the past X number of years, (B/c I don't know the exact year or number)

and the wreckage he has created and the pain he's inflicted on our family -

I just want to run from him. And protect my kids. So that's a pretty low chance of recon...

D28 told me today that she's dating someone AND that our divorce is affecting her more than she expected...so she's seeing a T now.

It's never painless for the kids, is it? They wanted me to file for D, and yet here they are, all 3 in pain.

S30 is taking on the father role with his sisters, and I don't know how I feel about that.

Proud, concerned, sorry, sad and relieved, angry...

how's that^^ for confused?

[25yearsmlc]

Cristy,

Thank You. And yes, despite the anguish of the weekend, I DO feel grateful to have been there for d19. I know she was grateful too.

I wanted to mention how few of her friends have the parental support that I THINK I provide, notwithstanding d19's complaints about the marital past.

Something in our country is going on that is NOT okay.

Way too many of d19's friends have parents who shoved their kids out the door saying "Good luck!" And maybe it's only her circle, but a LOT of them have non existent fathers or very distant dads...

It's obvious to me that connections exist between divorce (and or a bad marriage) and problems with our young adult children. We are passing on our baggage to them. Not a legacy.

Makes me sad. Just thought I'd throw that out.

[kml]

But you'd think I was fat by hearing h

My ex was a fat nazi too. Even when I was way underweight. Part of his OCD.

One of the things I like about Sociopathic Ex Boyfriend was that he embraced my curves, even when I started to gain weight due to some health issues. He insisted that he didn't care about my weight and that I still looked great. Sounds great, right? Nope, just a sociopath telling me what I wanted to hear. When he was high and raging during his drug relapse - the mask slipped and he called me fat.

Maybe I'll pick a chubby guy next time. Definitely no more OCD guys.
Note - I'm not happy about the recent weight gain myself. But prior to this - and throughout my marriage - I was never fat. Did I have curves? Yes - I'm built that way. Was I fat ? Not at all, only in the last two years ( and even now, most of the extra weight is in the right places).

[beatrice]

Hi -one of the things I have learned over the years is that everyone has a different perspective on life - mix of their personality, their own life events and their personal values. Hence what works for one person will not work at all for another.

However I do think that the key thing is functionality versus dysfunctionalality.

I live alone, and while I miss many aspects of a close relationship, emotionally and practically it suits me. What eventually works for you only you can discover, but a relationship is not a sticking plaster, and to treat it as such is both disrespectful to the other person and likely (imo) to attract another dysfunctional person into our lives. You know this, and I realise I am stating the blindingly obvious!



I think we need to bite on the bullet of loneliness: once we have worked through that we can see whether or not we actually want a relationship or just do not want to be alone.

Having lived in a close and loving relationship almost all my adult life, at first it was like a toothache. Hated it. Now I can see only positives. I see so many people in not very good relationships terrified of being alone. Clearly this is the better option for them, but to me it looks insane!

I also see some very happy and successful new relationships . . . .

What is a useful exercise is to spend some time thinking about how we got to where we are in our lives - whether there is a pattern of making the same type of decisions, and accommodations, and what we might want to do about this.

For me (and this relates very much to who I am and see the world) Trust is the big issue. I have tremendous trouble trusting anyone now.

In terms of getting into a functional relationship at present, the odds are against it, and that some delay might be good - but you may have the resilience to deal with that - some of us do and some do not.

The other thing is that I now have a great network of real friends - there are a lot of wonderful people out there on their own, independent, savvy and full of fun. I hang out with these people when I want company.

Will I meet anyone I want to be with - not likely now, and I am fine with that. Life is good. A plumber with great handyman skills and a large bank balance would be nice, but they would also need to like opera and foreign travel

[180Man]

25,

After 35 years of M -- more than I've been alive -- I have no place to tell you this....in fact, I've been out drinking with the other officers, so...take it with several grains of salt...

However, I see you writing a LOT about H. I see a lot of excuses about why you can't date. Why you couldn't date someone if they did X, because then it would be over. I see fear. Granted, people are right to say you should date when you feel you are ready to date......BUT... I think it's probably one of those things where you never really feel ready and just have to jump in head-first.

I met a JAG recently -- my age -- she's very attractive, intelligent, etc. Oddly enough, I spent the afternoon with her today doing work stuff, but we started to get to know each other just a little bit. It's difficult to get her to laugh, but I found it is possible. She is very analytical, possibly as much or more than me! She views the world through her own lens, one that is fairly foreign to me.

Distraction? Perhaps.

But I'll tell you what, I feel much better thinking about the JAG right now than my selfish, cheating, W. As much as I love my W...there are some facts that you can't get around. And this is the guy who has forgiven her to the bottom of his heart saying this.

So...what's my point? Maybe you need to get out of your own way, if only just for a minute. Go on a date. Worst case you get a free dinner! Best case........free meals for life! I'm joking, but....seriously... I was not ready to date 3-4 days after BD or even 3-4 months after BD. My marriage meant the WORLD to me. She was THE ONE. THE FùCKING ONE.

Or was she?

Because this boy had a nice time this afternoon with a girl...even if it was simply stupid work stuff.

So I think you should consider it, because the consequences are negligible...and who doesn't like free stuff?

V/R,
180

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=180Man]25,

After 35 years of M -- more than I've been alive -- I have no place to tell you this....in fact, I've been out drinking with the other officers, so...take it with several grains of salt...

As You are about my son's age, & the sep is 7 months old, of course I take it with a pound of salt.


However, I see you writing a LOT about H. I see a lot of excuses about why you can't date.

Yes and no. On one hand, I have given too much headspace to h, and it's attached to money, mostly (I think). Or at least a lot is, due to making plans for my new life hinging a lot on finances. I live in a very pricey area right now, near family. I believe, which I can only prove with time and circumstance, that once the finances are clarified, I'll be along my way. Why? B/c h's behavior has been so wildly inappropriate, so uncalled for, that he's sort of jettisoned me thru a lot of the grief part. NOT all and some of this is like PTSD b/c it was so sudden (to me!) but I do not miss this guy.

As for excuses why not to date? That's funny to me. I'm not divorced yet, first of all.
I have 3 children.

In some ways this is like a death to me, (so would you ask a widow of a 35 year marriage to just start dating?)

I'm still reeling from a sudden family death, 2 moves including a cross country one, no kids at home for the first time in 30 years, a significant life altering health issue I didn't see coming, a new unknown career path, somewhere, and financial issues and oh, yeah, my h is very publicly "in a new R"...

What can I offer a OM? My hilarious wit, keen brilliance and great beauty, for an evening. Oh and my modesty (I think my greatest trait is modesty! )

I want to be kind and honest. I"m not sure the first few men I date (whom my T made me swear NOT to marry) are up for my "practice dating".

But who knows?

Why you couldn't date someone if they did X, because then it would be over. I see fear. Granted, people are right to say you should date when you feel you are ready to date......BUT... I think it's probably one of those things where you never really feel ready and just have to jump in head-first.

total disagreement here^^...No jumping in head first "where you never feel ready".

I think when I meet the guy who is interesting/interested, I'll know. And I'm 100% positive we will take it slowly b/c rushing in is how you waste time, ironically.

It's far more likely to be a waste of time, if you jump in. I look younger than my age but I am still 57. I figure I have 40 years left here (yes I have good genes) that I want to spend wisely, fully.

Except for the weirdness of ML to a new man after 37 years of being monogamous, which I guess is fear (but also other good things) it's that I want to use care with OM's heart and mine.

I don't want to waste more of my life and time on someone who isn't going to mean anything in the long run AND OR who will simply be "settling." As Beatrice mentioned the unhealthy dynamics she sees in other m's, I do too. 2 of my 3 sisters are in m's I would not want to be in. One of them is VERY unhappy but must/seems to prefer it to being alone.

I'm not there and don't want to be. I'd rather be alone than wish I were.

I have never lived alone before. Ever. This is a valuable experience.

I'm in no rush to fill that space. I have so much to learn about my own preferences and dreams and what causes me angst, apart from external factors.

As Beatrice suggested, there's a lot to be said for learning how to like being alone. It's only been 2 months but I DO like it. (To be fair, I do have a dog).
-

But I'll tell you what, I feel much better thinking about the JAG right now than my selfish, cheating, W. As much as I love my W...there are some facts that you can't get around. And this is the guy who has forgiven her to the bottom of his heart saying this.

I get ^^this.

But To be clear, I believe the man I loved and was married to for decades, is effectively dead. He's not coming back. Sure, of course I hope there will be a warming of R's with all of us, and a recon with our children b/c they need that (I think) and I know h does.

It'd be good for us to be cordial as we will have to see each other at least a few times...
Thats impossible , I THNK, while the div is going on as he's basically telling me to F--- off and saying the same to the court. In the long run that's just going to cost us and him, more.

OR I'm wrong and I'll be screwed. Time will tell.

While my ego hopes for a grand apology, it's not something I'm pinning anything on. Because of who he is now- which is NOT my problem, he's very unlikely to do much more than maybe mumble a moderate regret, once...

He made Too much wreckage to be able to look at, let alone try to repair.

So no, I'm not waiting for h to return. Nor am I ready to replace h.

STILL -- I do know a guy I'd LIKE to date someday, but I'm not ready to date him now. Yes, I know him now, but dating him at this point would be too reactive. That's what I was discussing on the thread earlier. He has traits I admire, which h eventually came to lack. He's attractive too.

But he's too good a catch to rush in with. Make sense? In fact if I could go back in time to recon with h 10 years ago, I wish we had pieced much more carefully.

For many here, the only goal is recon, NOT a restored m with intense piecing. H never did explore how he could rationalize what he'd done or what underlying crap was there to enable him to do so. And I didn't push it. Once his mom got sick, I let it go and hoped for the best, I guess.




So...what's my point? Maybe you need to get out of your own way, if only just for a minute. Go on a date. Worst case you get a free dinner! Best case........free meals for life! I'm joking, but....seriously... I was not ready to date 3-4 days after BD or even 3-4 months after BD. My marriage meant the WORLD to me. She was THE ONE. THE FùCKING ONE.

Or was she?

We definitely just see time differently, 180. You are about my son's age.

but I appreciate the sentiments.

[25yearsmlc]

Wow, I just posted over my 12,000th post here.

I feel like there should be an award or promotion ceremony.

Just saying...

[180Man]

25,

I am slightly more sober now, I apologize for being so brazen. Very much understand what you're saying and I believe the words "head first" were a bit much on my part. I am not ready for any of these things, either, I know this -- so I completely understand what you're saying. I, too, must learn how to live alone because I have not done so in a long time. Not to be unfair to our dogs, but I don't think they count when it comes to this.

I was in no way trying to push you to start a long term R, but I can see that I wrote it poorly. I do think you should go on a date or two purely for the distraction of it. I say this simply because my distraction yesterday at work with the JAG was a nice surprise. I found myself not thinking about my W and our problems for once. One of the constant things I've battled is, despite significant efforts to get involved with something that would distract me from my M problems, I would routinely start thinking about it in the middle of whatever I was doing.

Go kart racing? Fun! Requires some level of focus. Did great for several laps and then I come around a corner and start thinking about my W. Uggghh. For this exact reason I have not resumed flying yet because I feared it would consume my thoughts at dangerous times -- I think I am ready to get back in the cockpit soon, I think yesterday showed me there is a light at the end of the tunnel and my mental canvas will not always be such a hindrance.

Go karts are just an example, I have tons from the last six months. It was just such a mental relief yesterday to finally not have that happen in my head and I want the same for you at some point.

So, in closing, I think you should invite the occasional distraction when you are ready (but I still suspect that we will not necessarily ever feel ready, sometimes Nike is right). Nothing long-term, of course, but having lunch or dinner with somebody whose mere presence will prevent you from bringing up the D topic (mentally or verbally) if only for an hour or two, may provide you with a nice mental break. Or, who knows, maybe go karts alone will do it for you!

Take care ((((25))))!

[Accuray]

Some men asked me out right when I got here, which was maybe 2 months after separation and a horrific hospital stay.

I was actually offended by this. I found it insulting to my m that someone would assume I could be ready to actually date.

They were men who divorced long ago, and or from short m's, who would assume I'd be ready to date them, then. It kind of made me believe their own m's must have meant very little to them.

I was interested that you felt this way. Why would you assume their m's must have meant very little to them?

nd FYI, "S" is a kind, smart attractive guy. And he's really into being a good dad. So he's not some "jerk".

Anyhow, I asked S how long it took him to date after he and his w "split," 10 years ago (i didn't define sep or Div in the question).

He said "3-4 days"...

Okay. I literally laughed b/c I assumed he was joking.
( I mean, "good one!", right? cool)

Then he blurted out "I was so lost and hurt...just seeking solace. They didn't mean anything."

Later he and his w recon for a year, before finally divorcing.

What I took from this^^ disclosure is that "S" is very needy, terrified of being alone, AND that he is presumably very high maintenance, emotionally. Huge turn off for me.

Hmmm, you were judging "S" pretty harshly there weren't you?

At the point that exW and I finally separated I'd been DB'ing for three years, not having my needs met, etc. At the point I decided I was "done" it was after a very long wind-down. It wasn't like everything was great and the next day I decided to leave and date someone else right?

So in the context that a marriage was bad for a long time, dating "3-4 days" after separating might not be unreasonable -- it's much better than dating *before* separating which so many people seem to do right?

Then, as he described his actions as being due to feeling lost and hurt, I'm not sure why you would conclude that he was needy, terrified of being alone, and high maintenance emotionally?

We all know that divorce is hugely traumatic, the way people act when they're recovering (sad, remorseful, angry, potentially depressed) doesn't define "who they are" right?

It would be like concluding that someone who was in the hospital was "sickly and likely an invalid" based on an episode at a point in time.

I guess I saw "S"'s disclosure to you as a person who was being vulnerable, which requires self confidence.

I'm confident you'll find your path!

[JujuB]

Hello 25

I just wanted to express how sorry i am that your daughter had to experience such an undeserving, incomprehensible and horrific violation at such a young age. And as a mother, I know that you experienced every depth of it as well.

Sadly there are people in this world that commit horrible acts and other people that suffer from them. I hate having to accept that it is just as simple as that.

I know many of us here are suffering from some pretty incomprehensible acts from the people we loved and trusted as well. We want answers and explanations for our pain and suffering but sometimes there are none.

I was recently validated as having been victimized, but advised not to be a victim. That I need to take back my power. And that is something I have been thinking about a lot. And that advise seems to encompass a broad range of scenarios, from a physical assault to lies and betrayal or sexual/financial infidelity

Regarding dating...

I think it is tempting to think about the potential for another mate, for love, for support, physical and emotional intimacy when our spouses first leave, or perhaps leave again.

I think those thoughts or the action of dating can be a bit self medicating. An escape when our lives are at their most tumultuous.

Right now both you and I are in the trenches. Legally, and emotionally. I kind of feel like its healthier to just get through those trenches first. You will be in a better place to actually get to know someone, instead of seeking them for an escape.

I did date someone a while ago and while it did not go badly,
I realize that he was just so wrong for me in so many ways. My selection process was way off. Scarily off. Beyond scarily off. And I was relieved when we ended things amicably. It was unfair to him as well because I became the person leading a secret life. I was light hearted and friendly with him. But in great pain deep inside due to legal issues and betrayals.

Dating him, did take away a lot of my hurt and anger when I found out my ex was dating someone at the same time though.

It made me realize that OP really is not the demon I once imagined. They are delusions for our ex. That OP does not mean our ex spouses are happy or satisfied with their choices. That there are moments when they probably just want to physically run away from OP as well because of repulsion and the feeling that things are just wrong. Very unsettling. Dating someone gave me insight as to what our exes feel with their new spouses (but i obviously had less guilt as my ex had already left me a year prior)

If you do date, I would go in without any expectations or attachments. But is that really fair to the person you will be dating?

What I do not look back on from this experience is the relationships with new friends I have met through this process. Building a new support system and friendships with people that have shared my experiences was very rewarding and something I will never regret. I have met people from different locations and backgrounds and with different experiences and it has been amazing and a much more fair way of self medication.

[Cadet]

Wow, I just posted over my 12,000th post here.

I f eel like there should be an award or promotion ceremony.

Just saying...

Best I can do since Puppy/Starsky is not here anymore!

[25yearsmlc]

Some men asked me out right when I got here, which was maybe 2 months after separation and a horrific hospital stay.

I was actually offended by this. I found it insulting to my m that someone would assume I could be ready to actually date.

They were men who divorced long ago, and or from short m's, who would assume I'd be ready to date them, then. It kind of made me believe their own m's must have meant very little to them.

I was interested that you felt this way. Why would you assume their m's must have meant very little to them?


I should have given your more info but felt it would belabor the point.

In S's case, he sends constant texts and if not returned fast, (within a few hours) he asks if something is wrong.

When my d19 was assaulted/arrested, I explained that's what I was doing in Boston. S then asked if he could see me. I found that odd, but didn't make much of it. Sort of shook my head. (Mind you, there was no prior arrangement to meet up).

I repeated that I was attending my d's arraignment ( )

and he repeated the question as if I was discussing the weather. Like he could not get off the goal HE had, no matter what I was going thru.

Not attractive to me b/c it struck me as self centered and or too needy. (Plus the other childhood issues of his, and things that go beyond the point I was making.)


As for his dating so fast after his wife left, his sep/div was a shock to him, btw. I should have told you that before. So he could have been an LBSer. I could not understand him not fighting FOR His marriage, given that he said he was hurt and lost by the sep.

But instead he immediately started hooking up with other women -

all in the span of 3-4 days. Accuray, that's ^^still not something I grasp. But yeah, I see the emotionally soothing (needy) part of it and that was sort of helpful for me to take things less personally.

Oh and S is also IN a R, but wants to date me instead of her. So he says he will end his present "no sex, passionless" r, for me - IF I "commit" to dating him. Like he has to grab the new vine before he lets go of the old vine.

That^^ bothers me a lot.

Then he blurted out "I was so lost and hurt...just seeking solace. They didn't mean anything."

Later he and his w recon for a year, before finally divorcing.

What I took from this^^ disclosure is that "S" is very needy, terrified of being alone, AND that he is presumably very high maintenance, emotionally. Huge turn off for me.

Hmmm, you were judging "S" pretty harshly there weren't you?


I will really ponder ^^ that.

And See if you feel differently with the info I should have given earlier.

I agree that the disclosure was honest. IN a way it was helpful b/c I can see how self medicating the R's are.

Accuray, most women I shared that comment with, felt the same as I did. They were aghast that a guy who did not expect or want a sep, would immediately hook up.

I read somewhere that men remarry faster than women, regardless of who ended their previous m. Is it possible men have more trouble being alone in general? I'm asking.

S not telling me he was still dating someone, until I specifically asked,

means, he wants things all set up with me, the new person (to grab the new vine before he lets go of the one he holds now) Makes me feel like he can't be alone. And isn't being honest with her or me.

Who does that? (Oh wait, I know who).

yes it pushed some buttons.



At the point that exW and I finally separated I'd been DB'ing for three years, not having my needs met, etc. At the point I decided I was "done" it was after a very long wind-down. It wasn't like everything was great and the next day I decided to leave and date someone else right?

Well that's ^^ fair enough.

Now that h is SO openly dating (on FB and in every convo with our kids) "the Love of His Life", I'd actually feel safer dating. Ironic. I certainly have permission.

I cannot help but fear any of my new R's being compared to his "Love of Life"

("is 25 in love yet?? Why Not? She must be holding onto h OR she can't get a date??"- ??)
But dating for that^ reason is goofy.
To me this divorce was sudden. Until late last summer, I can honestly say I did not see THIS coming.

Now I feel very much like I should have seen it. OR not put up with crap from h.

I hate that feeling.

Man I need to ruminate less.


So in the context that a marriage was bad for a long time, dating "3-4 days" after separating might not be unreasonable -- it's much better than dating *before* separating which so many people seem to do right?

Clearly.
My son told me today that h was "horrible to you and acts insane now, so [I] hope to God you don't miss HIM."

Ouch, yet helpful.




-
We all know that divorce is hugely traumatic, the way people act when they're recovering (sad, remorseful, angry, potentially depressed) doesn't define "who they are" right?

God let's hope not.
-
I'm confident you'll find your path!

Thanks, and I'm taking things you said in. Not blowing them off.

[Accuray]

Yes with that additional information I agree with you! Those are all bad signs, and that's really the benefit you have from life experience is to stay away from that.

I read somewhere that men remarry faster than women, regardless of who ended their previous m. Is it possible men have more trouble being alone in general? I'm asking.

That's a great question! I have pondered that myself. I read that the people who life the longest lives are married men and single women, so that statistic suggests that men have health benefits from being in a relationship whereas women benefit from being single later in life, or maybe that's an improper assumption of causality.

I have three male friends who are lifelong bachelors and really aren't looking for a relationship so my small data set suggests that some men are fine alone.

I also read that one of the typical differences between men and women is that men feel soothed just by having their spouse in the same space/house even if they don't interact at all, whereas women need interaction to take value from the relationship, and cohabitating without interaction is a source of anxiety.

My "world view" has been changed by my divorce in several ways. One of them is that I attach less validity to stereotypical gender differences than I used to -- I've just found that we're all just "people" at the root of it and whereas some challenges seem to be more associated with one gender or the other there seem to be an equal number of exceptions.

For instance, my exW had very low sex drive, and some of my married friends have complained that their wives don't want to have sex frequently enough, so I formed this belief that married men want more sex than married women and are typically frustrated. Therefore, I didn't consider my situation to be outside of the norm.

Since being divorced and doing a bit of dating, I've met an equal number of women who had higher sex drives than their former partners and it was an equal source of angst. One woman I went to college with said her H would only have sex with her once a year and she had to beg for that to happen. So much for my prior belief! The reality seems to be that there are plenty of high drive women and low drive men running around, and sexual issues in a marriage are of course much more complex than just a mismatch in drive.

The other observation I've had is that people coming out of long term marriages, particularly LBS's, begin dating with some fairly common challenges.

For one, they were generally resigned to spending the rest of their life with a single person, and when they suddenly get immersed into the dating scene with so many options and so little friction (with all the apps, meetups, and dating sites) they can go a little off the deep end.

When I was last dating in my 20's, it was difficult -- you didn't know who was single, you didn't know who might be interested in you without a "high risk" proposition of some point, and the pool of people you were exposed to was pretty limited. The challenge was "settling" for someone who wasn't ideal because you'd get fatigue from the search.

Now, there's virtually no friction in finding someone to date and identifying who's available, and you can reach out to people with very little risk via e-dating. This creates a much bigger pool to draw from with little rejection risk, so the challenge I read about today is the "unicorn problem" where people get addicted to the hunt, and the velocity, and convince themselves there is always someone better for them around the next corner, so they never settle.

This can look like a veritable buffet of choices to someone recently divorced who may be tempted to overdue dating many people at once or being indiscriminate about who they reach out to.

Secondly I see LBS's leaving long term relationships pretty beaten down and feeling undesireable. Therefore, the first interest they get from someone new can be like crack cocaine and to your point, they can come across as extremely needy and overeager to rush into something because they no longer have to feel alone and undesireable.

Both of those influences -- the overdoing it and the being overeager to move too fast seem to pass within a couple months, but it does tell me I wouldn't want to be the first person to date someone just out of a divorce!

It seems that like DB, in many ways its a process you just have to live through and accept that you will make mistakes along the way.

Finally, feel free to blow me off or disregard me at any time! I'm no expert and I'm not offended if what I have to say isn't helpful.

Acc

[25yearsmlc]

Great post.

Lots to take in and yes I can see many truths in this^^.

More later

[25yearsmlc]

Yes with that additional information I agree with you! Those are all bad signs, and that's really the benefit you have from life experience is to stay away from that.

I read somewhere that men remarry faster than women, regardless of who ended their previous m. Is it possible men have more trouble being alone in general? I'm asking.

That's a great question! I have pondered that myself.-

I also read that one of the typical differences between men and women is that men feel soothed just by having their spouse in the same space/house even if they don't interact at all, whereas women need interaction to take value from the relationship, and cohabitating without interaction is a source of anxiety.


yes to my end of it. If theres no touch or talk, I'd have to know we "chose" just to watch something together. Otherwise, puttering around in different roomsms would probably make me wonder what was happening. Interesting

My "world view" has been changed by my divorce in several ways. One of them is that I attach less validity to stereotypical gender differences than I used to -- I've just found that we're all just "people" at the root of it and whereas some challenges seem to be more associated with one gender or the other there seem to be an equal number of exceptions.

I hope so. A bit tired of hearing about Men are from Mars/Women, Venus. Seems dismissive..and yet of course I know there are real differences too

For instance, my exW had very low sex drive, and some of my married friends have complained that their wives don't want to have sex frequently enough, so I formed this belief that married men want more sex than married women and are typically frustrated. Therefore, I didn't consider my situation to be outside of the norm.

Since being divorced and doing a bit of dating, I've met an equal number of women who had higher sex drives than their former partners and it was an equal source of angst. One woman I went to college with said her H would only have sex with her once a year and she had to beg for that to happen. So much for my prior belief!

Someone close to me has a similar problem with her live in bf.

Now that i'm here on DB, I cannot believe she'd put up with it! I mean, there are no kids, no m, and its been 6 years of a "Dealbreaker"! Move on...but she's someone most afraid of being alone. I mean, I guess.
-

The other observation I've had is that people coming out of long term marriages, particularly LBS's, begin dating with some fairly common challenges.

For one, they were generally resigned to spending the rest of their life with a single person, and when they suddenly get immersed into the dating scene with so many options and so little friction (with all the apps, meetups, and dating sites) they can go a little off the deep end.

When I was last dating in my 20's, it was difficult -- you didn't know who was single, you didn't know who might be interested in you without a "high risk" proposition of some point, and the pool of people you were exposed to was pretty limited. The challenge was "settling" for someone who wasn't ideal because you'd get fatigue from the search.

Now, there's virtually no friction in finding someone to date and identifying who's available, and you can reach out to people with very little risk via e-dating. This creates a much bigger pool to draw from with little rejection risk, so the challenge I read about today is the "unicorn problem" where people get addicted to the hunt, and the velocity, and convince themselves there is always someone better for them around the next corner, so they never settle.

This ^^ makes sense to me (not in a great way). But I can see this happening.

And I've known people who like to just 'wink" and "flirt" but say nothing real to anyone, and never meet anyone. (I have not agreed to meet anyone b/c I know I'm not ready for ML and so that stops me...so far) and btw,

it scares me from a petite woman standpoint. How can I rule out serial killers?

Just saying...

This can look like a veritable buffet of choices to someone recently divorced who may be tempted to overdue dating many people at once or being indiscriminate about who they reach out to.

YES - I can see this^^ happening for sure.

I'm sure I need more definite clear parameters but I'm not yet sure of all of them. Besides I have SOME but hey, who will admit that they "like to lie sometimes"? Also, who says they're "Not big on loyalty"??

I think we all like "Fine dining and walks on the beach"...AND honesty and loyalty and humor...

Mainly I probably need to watch out for red flags.

Secondly I see LBS's leaving long term relationships pretty beaten down and feeling undesireable.


absolutely. Because in the end, regardless of who filed, I feel like the LBSer and I know that h chose a PLACE and "adventure" over our marriage and family and it only "helps" a little to know he did the same thing 10 years ago.

It also hurts like crazy to know he did the same thing 10 years ago. Like he learned nothing - which must mean I was not "good enough" in some way - for him to stay with me.

Plus he announced on FB - which he rarely used before the sep - that he is with the "Love of his life" now. Wow...and that was the same month we sep.

Yeah, I know it was an affair (it's actually more insane if he didn't have an affair and announced the "love of his life" within a month). But who does that?

And heck yes it hurt deeply. Mortifying. Huge blow to the ego.



Therefore, the first interest they get from someone new can be like crack cocaine and to your point, they can come across as extremely needy and overeager to rush into something because they no longer have to feel alone and undesireable.

Yes ^^^ , I get that. And I think it's why I'm SO careful about dating and not "jumping in".

I don't want to attract weird guys only but I have not really done the online dating thing yet.

in my case it was "S" and another guy from high school who came on very strong as soon as I was available. Sure, I see elements of flattery in there but it felt weird and wrong in terms of what I want in my life right now.

AND YET the adoration factor from S was also appealing. Otherwise there would have been no engagement.

The second guy "F", I just avoid as he creeps me out. Not sure if I mentioned him but he asked me to "look into annulment" FOR HIM.

What??

1) my 35 year marriage won't end in annulment from MY end, (or h's) as we had 3 children who were conceived and born into a committed marriage and

2) given that I'd never date F, I sure found it weirdly out of line for him to share HIS hope that I can "marry in the Catholic Church" someday. I could barely get off the phone fast enough. Wacky.

WTF?




Both of those influences -- the overdoing it and the being overeager to move too fast seem to pass within a couple months, but it does tell me I wouldn't want to be the first person to date someone just out of a divorce!


OMG yes I totally hear you. Why volunteer for the whole rebound? Like saying you want to maximize your risk. Especially out of a long recent m??

Maybe I need to wear a sandwich board that says "want to practice date, b/c I know you're NOT "'the one'"??

When I step back objectively to see & depersonalize h's behavior, I can say "wow, that's crazy fast and it cannot be about me." I don't always manage to depersonalize it, but sometimes I can.

And I'm working really hard to get him out of my head. This "cold turkey" No contact after mostly daily contact for 35+ years is really weird.

I'm also baffled by HIS anger at me. What?? I mean the spew is insane and intense. Way more angry than I seem to be, which is wackadoodle crazy.

HE wronged me in such an obvious way, that I can't even make sense of his spew.

I don't get it.

Good news is that I know I don't have to "get" it! We often have to accept things including pain, that we don't understand.

I never understood how h could leave me AND our 2 d's for 2 years, a decade ago - and not feel like crap about it. I assume he just dosen't go there.

But he did. And that's just true.

back to ME...I joined a writer's group and will meet them this Monday night.

I also signed up for a "DivorceCare" group that meets nearby, this Tuesday.

And I volunteered for something called Crisis Counselor, Remote

which I THINK means I answer my phone when I'm on call and they provide free training for a week.

I also need to discuss my real job search. I do worry that I won't be able to do MY dream if I have to worry too much about money.

But, one day at a time...



It seems that like DB, in many ways its a process you just have to live through and accept that you will make mistakes along the way.

Finally, feel free to blow me off or disregard me at any time! I'm no expert and I'm not offended if what I have to say isn't helpful.

Acc

it's helpful and you have had a valuable (crappy) experience. I have to be okay with making mistakes. I think rejection of me physically would be a downer.

I've never had that experience before, (not to brag, just that my looks are something I always knew were in my favor. Now I'm aging and that's a huge fear - that we will age and get traded in for someone slimmer or younger, etc)

This is all weird to admit, but yeah, h leaving to choose OW and the tundra, SO FAST, is deeply wounding. And for the life of me, going SO over the top public about it,

feels awfully personal. I also think it embarrassed my kids.

My s30 thought it was "rude and cruel & mentally ill".

(How much money would it take for you to know your kid thought ^^that about you?)

Anyway, hey If we don't grow from THIS ordeal, we are not getting our money's worth.


PS

let me know about any red flags I should look for please! Did you meet your new flame online?

I don't know what else to call her, but I kind of like "new flame"...

[Accuray]

And I've known people who like to just 'wink" and "flirt" but say nothing real to anyone, and never meet anyone.

Yes I saw that video online about Millenials and the fact that people get addicted to getting "likes" on Facebook, Instagram, etc. so they check it compulsively and get a little endorphin hit when they get acknowledged. I think the online flirting is a similar thing where it's all about the endorphin hit of being acknowledged and that's really all some people need.

it scares me from a petite woman standpoint. How can I rule out serial killers?

You can't, but really what's the likelihood of that? Isn't that akin to worrying about being struck by lightening? What you give up in your life in exchange for that perceived bit of safety doesn't seem worth it to me. I have a woman I'm friends with who won't date *anyone* just for that reason, she's afraid that she'll be attacked physically. As a result she lives in a state of loneliness and complains about it.

If you stick to talking to people (via voice) before you meet in person, then meeting in a public place, and having faith in your "radar" to know when something is off you'll be fine. I had a scenario where a woman invited me to come to her house in the woods at 10:00 at night for a first meeting -- um, no thank you. It's easy to avoid stuff that obviously feels wrong.

I'm sure I need more definite clear parameters but I'm not yet sure of all of them. Besides I have SOME but hey, who will admit that they "like to lie sometimes"? Also, who says they're "Not big on loyalty"??

I think we all like "Fine dining and walks on the beach"...AND honesty and loyalty and humor...

Mainly I probably need to watch out for red flags.

Well one of the gifts of going through DB is you really know what to watch out for and you're far less likely to make excuses for someone's shortcomings. More importantly, you know more about yourself and what's important to you. I guarantee you that if you meet someone who tells you he would put the wheat on a high shelf so his ex couldn't reach it you'll run screaming no matter how good he seems otherwise. You are MUCH more aware of who you are and what you need than you were when you were in your early 20's, and that's a huge difference.

Your example about the guy who is discussing annulment before you've even agreed to go on a date. (Backs away slowly and limits eye contact) You knew right away that was a non-starter.

absolutely. Because in the end, regardless of who filed, I feel like the LBSer and I know that h chose a PLACE and "adventure" over our marriage and family and it only "helps" a little to know he did the same thing 10 years ago.

It also hurts like crazy to know he did the same thing 10 years ago. Like he learned nothing - which must mean I was not "good enough" in some way - for him to stay with me.

Plus he announced on FB - which he rarely used before the sep - that he is with the "Love of his life" now. Wow...and that was the same month we sep.

Yeah, I know it was an affair (it's actually more insane if he didn't have an affair and announced the "love of his life" within a month). But who does that?

And heck yes it hurt deeply. Mortifying. Huge blow to the ego.

Of course it hurts, it's awful. That's part of the journey. Just remember that it says a lot more about him than it does about you. A lot of it may not be about you at all. I went to a talk recently where the speaker was talking about the fact that "there are things that happen" which are just facts, and then there's the "story we tell ourselves about what happened", and we confuse the story with the facts, and that does us such harm!

For instance, when you say he chose a place and adventure "over your marriage", that's a story you're telling yourself. You don't know that he compared one against the other, or put any conscious thought at all into an "either/or" decision. Sometimes people do things without thinking about them at all, or ignore the consequences, or think it's all going to work out positively for them regardless of what they do. To say that he "chose a place and adventure over your marriage" puts his actions into a context that he made a conscious and measured decision to choose A instead of B while in all reality, he just did A without thinking about B, or what A meant for the future of B, do you see what I'm saying? We all have a tendency to insert ourselves into someone else's decision landscape when we may not have been there at all.

There are his actions and his Facebook posts, and then there is the personal meaning that you attach to them, in terms of how it reflects on you. Some of that if fact, and some is a story you're telling yourself that's not adding any value.

All that said, yes it is hurtful and mortifying and terrible and awful, and you should give yourself permission to feel every bit of that. You will need to in order to move beyond it.

let me know about any red flags I should look for please! Did you meet your new flame online?

I don't know what else to call her, but I kind of like "new flame"...

I guess the only advice I can give you is to "cut bait early" if you know something is not what you want. It's very easy to agree to a second date when put on the spot at the end of a first date, and even easier to agree to a third date at the end of a second. After three dates, it's far more painful and awkward to break things off than it would have been after one date when it's obviously less personal because you don't know them as well. Practice your polite "no thank you" speech in advance.

Yes I did meet "new flame" online, although after two years it doesn't feel that new! It's great to be in a new relationship but even better to be able to draw upon the learnings of what I could have done better last time around and not make the same mistakes again! All relationships are challenging and require lots of care and feeding. For me, I'm okay being alone, in some cases I prefer it, but it's also wonderful to be with someone who shares your hobbies and interests and is just generally a great companion.

Acc

[25yearsmlc]

good stuff

and i was kidding about the serial killer thing (other than the obvious public places for meeting).

Plus, I always pack heat...( )

But how do you say "no thanks" to another date if you've been pleasant the whole evening but internally ruling them out...?

[Sotto]

What Accuray posted above about the event and the meaning we apply to it (often causing pain to ourselves) reminded me of Guy Winch's emotional first aid TED talk - well worth a listen.

I agree about the 'due caution' advice. Take your time. Have a little exchange via email. Have a chat by phone. Meet for coffee in a public place. Let someone know where you are etc Don't accept a lift and so on. I think if you do all of these things, you will stay safe. And I think we are about as likely to meet a serial killer as win the lottery, so I wouldn't even worry about that!!

My advice would be - if you're going to dip a toe in - do just that and keep it light. There's no need to look for a relationship as such, at such an early stage - but some company and fun may be nice...

As for the 'let down' speech - before I met XH I tried OLD and went out with a guy. We met once and had a pleasant evening (though no spark for me) and then he told me he was looking for a life partner and I wasn't it.... ookay I never forgot that one!

As for rejecting someone. I was asked out recently (by text) by a guy who seems perfectly decent, but I just didn't have a romantic interest. I had to google - how to kindly refuse a date!! I did feel uncomfortable, and I tried to respond as kindly and politely as I could. And the googling sure helped with some kind phrases...

Another thing that happened to me was being asked out by a guy slightly older than me - who said he thought I was in my mid 30s. I told him my actual age and he lost interest completely - go figure! So I think we do have to take a little rough with smooth with OLD.

Actually, I think dancing is a great (no pressure) way to come into contact with guys. I go to a salsa class and they rotate the women around the guys so you get to meet them all - a sort of 'speed' dating environment where you have a little chat, a little dance and move on.

My dance teacher has had about 8 people marry from her classes so far!!

Xx

[25yearsmlc]

I love to dance. And I need to get out of my head, and condo.

I joined a writers' meet up - and volunteered to do crisis counseling (they train).

I also signed up to check out a "DivorceCare" support group that is literally a block from my place.

And I will google "nice let downs".

Sotto, wow, I sure like the guy who said he knew you were not his life partner... how "efficient" of him...

The age thing is curious. Seems a LOT of men only date up to their age, which I think means younger is their strong preference.

Here is what I don't get about^^ that.

If procreating is the goal, I can see why a man would want to date a younger woman.

Otherwise, the reality is that we women can have sex for longer than men, generally. Even with Viagra, that is often still true. A lot of men our age have some ED issues and are not responsive to the medications, or the side effects are problematic.

Just from a sexual standpoint, why aren't women looking for younger men to date?
just curious

[Accuray]

You know I've heard that "I'm looking for a life partner" thing from women I know before, I wonder if guys read that somewhere as being a good let down?

25 I don't know the best way to do it, if you figure it out let me know. What I do know is that if you agree to a second, third, fourth date when there's no spark, then what could have been a 30 second unpleasant conversation has the potential to turn into an hour long tear-filled emotionally draining marathon to better to be polite early on!

Your GAL activities sound great, go for it!

I know *plenty* of women who are dating younger men, including a couple former DB'ers. One of them is in her late 40's and dating a 32 year old guy. Plenty of examples of that. My xW was 49 and dated a 35 year old -- it happens!

Acc

[kml]

I would change one piece of advice that people have given you. Chat online - a little. Do NOT start a relationship online ( odds are good you won't be attracted when you meet them in person, so don't get too invested). Agree to meet just for coffee if the online conversation goes well ( good to find out quickly if there is no chemistry). And DONT give them your phone number until after you've met them in person. (Trust me, if you meet them and they are creepy, you will NOT want them to have your phone number!)

[25yearsmlc]

I would change one piece of advice that people have given you. Chat online - a little. Do NOT start a relationship online ( odds are good you won't be attracted when you meet them in person, so don't get too invested). Agree to meet just for coffee if the online conversation goes well ( good to find out quickly if there is no chemistry). And DONT give them your phone number until after you've met them in person. (Trust me, if you meet them and they are creepy, you will NOT want them to have your phone number!)

KML Ellie,

I don't even know what you mean by chatting if I can't be on the phone with them.

Some online dating group and then we chat on line?? Then I meet them and LATER I give them my phone number?

But I won't know if they're mumblers before I meet them (come to think of it, mumbling drives me crazy. But I won't put that on the profile...)

Geez, this is getting complicated.

But I'm happier about it.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

So I went to the grocery store where my secret crush works. He walked my groceries home to my condo building (not my actual condo) when I couldn't drive.

He did that twice and it was really nice. And he's very attractive so I thought maybe I'd get some practice with him...

ANYHOW when I went to the store in the produce section, some woman told me I had my shirt on, inside out...which was true.

This ^^ bothers me on a number of levels, especially since I had just seen my doctor and he said nothing about that. (God, I hope he didn't write it down..."patient seems disheveled"...)

I need to step up my game.

[kml]

I mean "chat" as in messaging back and forth online. Also, one other reason not to give out your phone number until after that first short coffee date - dick pics. Yeah, they're a thing.

Online is just like being at a party and bumping into someone interesting. The coffee date is that part where you sit down on the sofa at the party and talk to each other a little bit. THEN if you're still interested you can give him your number and hopefully he'll call for a real date.

Excessive chatting online can lead to feeling like you're already starting a relationship - making the gap between fantasy and reality all the more crushing when you meet in real life (and stickier to get out of).

[OwnIt]

Also, get a burner number for when you do give out the number. I briefly went on some dates at the beginning of the year (no idea why) and had to burn several numbers because of the creeps out there. Also don't give your real name or let them know where you live until after you've gone out long enough to know they are not insane. Online dating is scammers, pervs and projects. In my short tenure I had some inappropriate conduct thrown at me that was quite shocking. Much better off meeting someone in real life.

[25yearsmlc]

I mean "chat" as in messaging back and forth online. Also, one other reason not to give out your phone number until after that first short coffee date - dick pics. Yeah, they're a thing.

Online is just like being at a party and bumping into someone interesting. The coffee date is that part where you sit down on the sofa at the party and talk to each other a little bit. THEN if you're still interested you can give him your number and hopefully he'll call for a real date.

Nice analogy.

Excessive chatting online can lead to feeling like you're already starting a relationship - making the gap between fantasy and reality all the more crushing when you meet in real life (and stickier to get out of).

Wow, that makes sense. The photos are another thing, b/c my sister met a guy who was WAY Off his photos. Other than the 40lb difference he simply did not look like the photo at all. I did not recognize him when i met him, and I had seen the photos.

*Why set yourself up for meeting & seeing someone visibly disappointed??*

I can see why it would be harder to extricate after too many talks on the phone.

Expectations of sex are...what? Forget the articles that ALL say "depends"...

I just want to know how long I can put it off IF I want to keep the R going (and if I don't then it's a non issue). Is there an expectation that after 3 dates you are "leading them on"??

[25yearsmlc]

Also, get a burner number for when you do give out the number. I briefly went on some dates at the beginning of the year (no idea why) and had to burn several numbers because of the creeps out there.

Wait...are you saying I have to get a temporary phone from some store, to use in case I'm hounded by a werido? But if I date someone I like, THEN I give him my real number and act like it's normal?? So I'm carrying around my "dating" phone?

Jesus Christ...OWn you are scaring me! (And protecting but still.... )


Also don't give your real name or let them know where you live until after you've gone out long enough to know they are not insane. Online dating is scammers, pervs and projects.

really? I mean, I'm not lending anyone money or having some guy move into my house...

other than insane $hit, what are the more subtle things b/c I HOPE I can spot the obvious ones...

Thieves?? Oh God...

In my short tenure I had some inappropriate conduct thrown at me that was quite shocking. Much better off meeting someone in real life.

Yeah it is better but as Accuray points out, there's a lot to be said for meeting online in terms of "efficiency".

the nice "Boyfriend" I met in person at the grocery store is kind and very attractive but I doubt we have a lot in common for long term. He's just in the neighborhood and went out of his way to be kind to me.

So the online thing is appealing in the sense of a bigger pool.

I want to like this, people!

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=kml]I mean "chat" as in messaging back and forth online. Also, one other reason not to give out your phone number until after that first short coffee date - dick pics. Yeah, they're a thing.

oh for God's sake. Unasked for dick pics? (Forget that question b/c Why would I ask for pictures??)

Okay now I'm laughing AND shaking my head...

[kml]

Well, lest you get too spooked, let me say MY experience with online dating overall was pretty good. I think what helped with me is that I was pretty good at reading between the lines on their profiles, and reading their photos. Most of the guys I met were pretty much as advertised. (My friend, on the other hand, cannot seem to pick up anything from their profiles and has mostly struck out).

I only dated one guy that I DIDN'T meet online - he picked me up while shopping in the discount store and shall forever be known as Mr. Big Lots. He wasn't any better or worse than the guys I met online.

I DID end up dating several Love Avoidants - guys that didn't really want to be in an actual relationship, were fine with just the occasional date. Probably a subconscious choice on my part, as I wasn't quite ready for a full time boyfriend myself (although I thought I was). I also dated some guys who were WAY too young for me - good for the ego but really a waste of time (although I have fond memories and we remain friends).

Then of course there's the Sociopath Ex Boyfriend, who looked like such a great guy and not commitment phobic at all - well, now we know that was too good to be true,

One alternative approach, not specific to dating but to creating a new social circle, is to join Meetup groups. Many people here have found that helpful. I've never done it but my Adult Rock Band class pretty much met that need for me, I made tons of new good friends in that group.

Wherever you find your dates, remember to live by the adage one of my younger girlfriends gave me - "No glove, no love". Our generation, unaccustomed as we are to worrying about stds, is apparently subject to increased risk. I'm SO grateful that I never had unprotected sex with Sociopath Ex Boyfriend .

All this being said - my first boyfriend after divorce was delightful. Yes, he was Love Avoidant, and yes, he dumped me after a year when his childhood sweetheart found him on FB. But he was crazy sexy, smart and well-read, and definitely gave me back my mojo. We are friends to this day. Don't be afraid - just discerning. And don't expect the first few to end up being The One. Just have some fun adventures.

[OwnIt]

You can download a burner app and pick your phone number. It works through your regular phone. Costs about $5 per month. If you have given to someone that you are nervous about, you just burn the number and it vanishes. With the few I got to the point of giving my "number" I explained when I gave it that it was a burner number (and in my case because I didn't want racy texts coming through my phone that my children frequently pick up and read). Plus I was able to lock down that burner number without locking them out of my regular phone.

I second the glove comment. Also, this may not be a big deal for you, but I am disease phobic. I have nothing and want nothing. There is a lot of herpes 1 and 2, hpv and some nasty stuff floating around. At this point I wouldn't even kiss someone without inquiring about herpes 1 (and remember you can get both of them by mouth and the other).

I never did more than that so I never had to go into the really awkward testing question, but maybe kml or someone else has some idea of how to handle that.

[25yearsmlc]

a wealth of information HERE!!

[25yearsmlc]

You can download a burner app and pick your phone number. It works through your regular phone. Costs about $5 per month. If you have given to someone that you are nervous about, you just burn the number and it vanishes.


WTH??

how weird, but okay....


With the few I got to the point of giving my "number" I explained when I gave it that it was a burner number (and in my case because I didn't want racy texts coming through my phone that my children frequently pick up and read). Plus I was able to lock down that burner number without locking them out of my regular phone.

not exactly clear on what this^^ means...I'll google it?

I second the glove comment. Also, this may not be a big deal for you, but I am disease phobic. I have nothing and want nothing. There is a lot of herpes 1 and 2, hpv and some nasty stuff floating around.

pfft!

At this point I wouldn't even kiss someone without inquiring about herpes 1 (and remember you can get both of them by mouth and the other).


Seriously? God, how on earth would I "inquire about" that?? Not to mention how "attractive" it sounds -

[180Man]

At this point I wouldn't even kiss someone without inquiring about herpes 1 (and remember you can get both of them by mouth and the other).

Seriously? God, how on earth would I "inquire about" that?? Not to mention how "attractive" it sounds -

Oh jeez. My STBXW got herpes as a baby when someone kissed her. In all those years I never got it. It's not a big deal, just don't kiss anyone when they're having a flare up. She would always tell me when she couldn't kiss me on account of it -- actually the last time I tried to kiss her, just after New Years, I think she used it as an excuse to avoid kissing me. Not sure and I don't care. Anyways, of all the things to worry about, I wouldn't worry too much about that.

[kml]

90% of the population have been exposed to oral herpes by age 50 according to the NIH. Just because you don't have outbreaks doesn't mean you haven't acquired the virus. This is not something to worry about.

[25yearsmlc]

90% of the population have been exposed to oral herpes by age 50 according to the NIH. Just because you don't have outbreaks doesn't mean you haven't acquired the virus. This is not something to worry about.

We were both in the Army and we were tested non stop every year. If h has anything now, it's on HIM and hopefully not me.

KML, I don't see why it's NOT something to worry about if so many of us might have it.

But it's good to know.

I heard some "new info" that isn't new - but my family didn't have the heart to tell me earlier, (H's FB post that he met the "love of his life", which he said some months ago, like within weeks of our parting)

AND d19 getting assaulted/arrested in Boston, AND my 9 hour drive each way

AND my freaking dental implants (I have green/purple bruising and a left sided jowl)

AND h not sending 75% of what he owes, b/c you know, b/c he "retired" and cannot pay, and the "expert" who keeps sending me horribly boring job announcements I guess I have to apply for,

and all my fears about money

Geez, it's been a lousy week. D28 called b/c she's worried about me.

I detest that ^^ although I know it's well meant. I'm not brain damaged or disabled, (well, some dizzy stuff and short term memory issues from the meds and those are improving)

though I know since the neuro crap in October the kids stare at me like I've got dementia.

While in CA last month for GDC, I saw the older kids. We went out to dinner and while they were in the rest room, I switched to a better table.

When they returned, they were looking all around and outside for me. I think they believed I had "wandered off aimlessly" and they were getting a bit worried. Then they saw me inside and came to the table.

They asked what was up and I said

"I changed tables...sit down, your dad will be here any minute."

for a minute, they were terrified...

I've still got it.

[kml]

Oral herpes - type 1 - is different from the type 2 strain that causes most genital herpes.

You would not have been tested for type 1 even in the military.

Basically, almost everyone has the oral herpes virus but not everybody gets fever blisters.

[kml]

Oh, and fwiw, your H didn't "just happen" to meet "the love of his life" within weeks of your split. I'd bet money he had already started something with her before or had a history with her from before.

Also, that "love of his life" phrase - don't put too much stock in that. Sociopath Ex Boyfriend posted a bunch of pictures of us on Facebook and called me "the love of his life" - except, of course, when those pictures were taken he had the side-chick plus was grifting other women plus was lying about a whole bunch of other stuff. So appearances on Facebook can be VERY deceiving!!

[adinva]

What an informative thread you have here, 25! I'm learning a lot!

[25yearsmlc]

Oh, and fwiw, your H didn't "just happen" to meet "the love of his life" within weeks of your split. I'd bet money he had already started something with her before or had a history with her from before.

Oh I know^^^. In fact it'd be weirder & crazier (arguably worse?) if he had just met her and posted that crap. He never posted about us on FB (rarely posted anything other than a few "adventure" pictures of himself on a mountain, hunting, a maybe few graduation photos). The kids noticed that he had very few pics of us as a family. Now I guess he's all about it.

It all bothers me of course. But I know that it's mostly my ego/heart. I mean, in my head I know that it can't be true and that our 35 year marriage was not a sham and our family was not the "practice family", but I am stunned by how cruel it is of him. He's burning a lot of bridges - my family is huge and he loved them. He has one brother who lives near me and we remain close. I don't know about my FIL anymore...and that feels like a loss b/c I have to assume h badmouthed me big time with his own weird narrative.

MIL (the wife FIL has had for 25 years) is sympathetic so I don't really know about my FIL but he's been in my life longer than my own dad was.

I feel sad and angry about losing him/them, if I have. H took OW to meet them in Mexico. Evidently posted pics of them kissing there...nice.

Zero of those pictures were ever shown of us. Jesus, I should have wondered more...



Also, that "love of his life" phrase - don't put too much stock in that.

it's not that I believe it, cognitively. But how can he post about it so publicly? We are still married, and it's like I never existed.

Sociopath Ex Boyfriend posted a bunch of pictures of us on Facebook and called me "the love of his life" - except, of course, when those pictures were taken he had the side-chick plus was grifting other women plus was lying about a whole bunch of other stuff. So appearances on Facebook can be VERY deceiving!!

I think as long as the divorce proceeding (MONEY !!!) is at play, which h attaches so much importance to,

I'll never know anything real.

lately I have imagined something happening which may sound like a "hope" but I don't think it is...I think it's just a realistic guess that keeps h's doubts at bay. He once told me if things didn't work out he'd "just win me back" years later...

I believe that h will call me in the next few years. I don't know what the trigger will be but he will need or want something, maybe just reassurances or reminiscing. (Not sure how my own remarriage would affect that but assuming I'm still single...)

But whenever that day comes and he calls or reaches out or sees me at a family event -- he will not apologize or acknowledge wrong doing. He will play nice, as if he's being a gentleman who is taking the high road.

He has ended our m in such an ugly dishonest way. And SO PUBLICLY...


And that really strikes me as worse than cowardly. It strikes me as a "nutty bad"
(the word "evil" is too heavy and my kids are his). My sister said it was the meanest thing she's ever seen on FB, short of naming me as a loser.

But him looking so bad, so "nutty bad" makes me feel worse. Like he's so so flawed and I was so so blind. And I my family hates him now, fwiw.

I think my h is winning the $hittiest exH award.

[25yearsmlc]

not that there's a contest for $hittiest exh

but in MY family, (so far??) he wins...

there are plenty of others worse off around here. I'm luckier than most, I know.

And if this were the only way to have these 3 wonderful children in my life, I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

I'll remind myself of this^^ in the days to come.

It's just that at this particular moment, I cannot imagine being pleasant or even acknowledging h at a function.

I spent time at the bank this afternoon, and h had cut me off our joint accounts there (accounts we had for our whole 35 year marriage) back in October when he had me sign something odd, a few days out of the hospital. H is an MD and knew I was impaired

(do YOU guys who never met me, think I, 25, would sign away rights if my brain was turned on??)

How on earth does he live with himself?

Lots of triggers.

[25yearsmlc]

I went to a DivorceCare support group at a church near my condo, last night.

2 things struck me (and yes I DO recommend these groups, Like DBers in person.)

Coincidentally Half men, half women and that wasn't what I expected. Lots of universal themes about the divorce process being so grueling, so much limbo/hell, the damage to the children, the alienation parents felt (not all men, either).

Several of the men talked about how much they miss their children. One in particular hit me hard.

He wasn't talking like a Disneyland dad, who only wants the fun things for the kids. And he wasn't whining about how high the CS is, or to make custody about lowering the CS.

No, he was talking about how much he misses just hanging out with his daughters. Driving them to the pool and watching them swim, then they get to hang out more and they chat and talk about their days... They are now the same age my daughters were when h first went on his Alaskan adventure.

I was so moved and touched. He just wanted TIME with his d's.

I felt tears in my eyes b/c honest to God I would give anything to have a h who wanted TIME with his d's when they were young, or even now...

(not on His schedule or to take them hunting or fishing in Alaska, b/c that's what HE LOVES to do and they are, you know...open to it...)

but he was not there when they needed him the most and it's time he cannot make up). And they remember...

The other day d19 asked h for food money for the summer - as she's working there in Boston. If she were at home, we'd pay and if she were taking classes, we'd pay.

H said something like HE is "tired of being used for money."

d19 said "well, what else would I 'use' him for? Deep talks? TIME together??"

I am crestfallen about the past - but yes, I'll refocus and look forward. It just touched me deeply.

SECONDLY, I wanted to share that the group was FUNNY and mostly well spoken and educated. Like they would be your friends in real life and it IS real life.

We went out for chili and beer later and there's a cookout this weekend. I think I'm going to go. I already have friends and family nearby but this would allow me to meet new people AND be able to discuss the divorce in a helpful way, but also transition into fun things.

I enjoyed them and they made me feel really welcome.

So yes Check those ("DivorceCare") groups out there b/c they seem a lot like DB but it's in person and there is a facilitator/ They also have a pro marriage component in case that is your goal. And they have had couples reconcile, but mostly it's for people in the throes of a sep or divorce. Just getting help through it.

So while They support reconciliation they also realize that most of the people there are already in the D process so they try to support you wherever you are.


WOMEN - there's a group called Women Institute of Financial Education (WIFE.org) that supports teaching women about finances after divorce. It comes through something else called 'SecondSaturday" which is for people going thru divorce and has lawyers and CPAs there to give presentation. It's free or nominal fee, and it's 3-4 hours with tax issues and other financial goals --- my "WIFE.org" class is thru them.

I hope this is okay with the admin to mention these resources as I'm not part of them and they all do talk about reconciliation, but they also talk about financial protection.

Divorce cost a LOT more money than I expected and probably more than h expected.
It costs me more than I thought it would, emotionally too.

My h betrayed me in every way a h can betray a wife, and he did it semi publicly.

I deserve so much better. It's not my job to say what h deserves but to keep the focus on myself and to remember and remind myself that I DESERVE BETTER THAN H GAVE

and that's all I need to know. No more movies of OW and h and how rich he will FINALLY be, but without me.

Just that a guy who could inflict this much pain on the 4 people who loved him the most, should not present himself as a victim. (It's "typical" but it's also WEIRD)

He should have been so grateful and loving and available, to those children, who gave him another chance to be present...so many times and so many times he was not there.

But some men are. And that's a good thing.

To those of you out there who want to RAISE your kids, not just show up every 3 weeks for a day getting ice cream, I salute you.

Some courts don't make it easy. And some stbxw's don't either.

Keep trying. Kids need to know you tried.

((( )))

[adinva]

I was interested to see that you liked the DivorceCare group. I had thought they would be mainly bitter people stuck in the early stage of DB that DB helped us get past but that some divorced people NEVER get past, the anger, the blame, etc. You know, since they were doing DivorceCare INSTEAD of DB. Big assumption, I know. I also had thought that men there would be looking to pick up women there. I'm glad you're taking such good care of yourself.

This:

I am crestfallen about the past - but yes, I'll refocus and look forward. It just touched me deeply.

I could relate to completely. I thought my own bad choices, which I was prepared to live with the consequences of (if you can't change your situation, change your attitude!), and stick with for life...were my own problem, but then when I realized I had subjected my children to those choices too, and the dad they had was not the dad they deserved, and there were other husbands out there who were such better role models, yes crestfallen is a great word for it.

I guess, don't beat yourself up over it. You did the very best you knew how, for as long as you could, and your kids are the wonderful people they are because they had the life and the parents and experiences that they did. You have a chance to do better for yourself (with or without a man) and your kids will learn from that too.

Hugs!

[Trees00]

(((( )))) I'm sorry you and your daughter went through that! I can't even imagine. I'm glad she has you for support.

I went to a DivorceCare support group at a church near my condo, last night.

-Good for you!-


Several of the men talked about how much they miss their children. One in particular hit me hard.

He wasn't talking like a Disneyland dad, who only wants the fun things for the kids. And he wasn't whining about how high the CS is, or to make custody about lowering the CS.

No, he was talking about how much he misses just hanging out with his daughters. Driving them to the pool and watching them swim, then they get to hang out more and they chat and talk about their days... They are now the same age my daughters were when h first went on his Alaskan adventure.

I was so moved and touched. He just wanted TIME with his d's.

I felt tears in my eyes b/c honest to God I would give anything to have a h who wanted TIME with his d's when they were young, or even now...

-(((( ))))
This is heartbreaking. I've never understood how someone could not value time spent more so than money or personal preferences. I think that is why maybe you (and I) did not see things as they were before, the pure selfishness.... I know in my case, I never really thought it was possible.

My dad valued time spent with my sister and me more than most anything really (other than his faith). He was a hard worker, and in my teenage years literally worked 7 days a week for 10 years (gone over 12 hours a day). He only had two days off in those ten years: the day I graduated high school and the day my sister graduated high school (two years later). In spite of this, there was never a feeling of disconnection or neglection with him. He spent each morning with us before we went to school. He spent 2-3 hours with us in the afternoons after school, and made it a point for us to all have dinner together (except at times my mom would take hers in front of the tv). Each weekend, we went to dinner on Saturday and Sunday. We did this for years and it was nonnegotiable. We planned our other activities AROUND our family time. There were times my mom would go to dinner with us, but mostly she would stay at home in front of the tv. So I have truly experienced the no excuses in parenting. He was present emotionally and physically and he was an example of what it means to be able to count on someone. He made me feel special.

So, when you know you're valuable (and you are and you know this), I think it makes it even harder to see the things your H is doing and your head not spin each time he picks himself over his family. -

(not on His schedule or to take them hunting or fishing in Alaska, b/c that's what HE LOVES to do and they are, you know...open to it...)

😒😒😒

but he was not there when they needed him the most and it's time he cannot make up). And they remember...
The other day d19 asked h for food money for the summer - as she's working there in Boston. If she were at home, we'd pay and if she were taking classes, we'd pay.

H said something like HE is "tired of being used for money."

d19 said "well, what else would I 'use' him for? Deep talks? TIME together??"

-They know what they deserve.-

I am crestfallen about the past - but yes, I'll refocus and look forward. It just touched me deeply.

SECONDLY, I wanted to share that the group was FUNNY and mostly well spoken and educated. Like they would be your friends in real life and it IS real life.

We went out for chili and beer later and there's a cookout this weekend. I think I'm going to go. I already have friends and family nearby but this would allow me to meet new people AND be able to discuss the divorce in a helpful way, but also transition into fun things.

I enjoyed them and they made me feel really welcome.

-Sounds like you have found something great!-



Divorce cost a LOT more money than I expected and probably more than h expected.
It costs me more than I thought it would, emotionally too.

My h betrayed me in every way a h can betray a wife, and he did it semi publicly.

I deserve so much better. It's not my job to say what h deserves but to keep the focus on myself and to remember and remind myself that I DESERVE BETTER THAN H GAVE

-You know this and you would not be as far along in this as you are if you didn't. What he's done on Facebook is shameful, but that reflects on HIM and not you. Most people seeing that are not thinking "Awww, what a great couple! Glad he found the love of his life!" but "Isn't he married? Isn't that soon to be posting all that...?"
There is a police officer in town that one day exploded his social media with pictures of him and someone else... that was not his wife. I always thought he was a good, decent man and I was appalled (still am) and shocked to realize he was blasting this new relationship and he was not even divorced from his wife. I still do not think of him the same, even though his XW seems to be doing really good now (my best friend is friends with her). I know it caused her a lot of pain, and his actions (to me) spoke nothing of her, but his lack of integrity. I know this doesn't help with how frustrating it is to be treated that way, though. -

[Sotto]

Glad to hear the group went well. I also found a variation of divorce care helpful and a bunch of us keep in touch and do regular social things. I would highly recommend to anyone 😊

[kml]

I thought my own bad choices, which I was prepared to live with the consequences of (if you can't change your situation, change your attitude!), and stick with for life...were my own problem, but then when I realized I had subjected my children to those choices too, and the dad they had was not the dad they deserved, and there were other husbands out there who were such better role models, yes crestfallen is a great word for it.

Yeah, I relate to this. It was MY choice to take my ex back after he cheated on me early in our marriage - but it wasn't just me taking that risk that he would cheat again, I subjected my future children to that risk as well.

[25yearsmlc]

Yes - yes,

we mostly tend to make the idea/fear of Div a total nightmare (and God knows I'm in a $hit$torm at the moment) without any upside,

but we forget that staying together can have huge costs too. Not just to us!


My kids have been lovingly & brutally honest with me about the costs to THEM, of our staying together.

I thought I was staying married in large part FOR THEM...and in large part, that was true. But that does not make me right.

A woman there said something that has nagged at me all day.

The woman said she has 2 friends ("OW" and "OM") from her firm, who are having an A and confessed it to her. She says they both said they are leaving their families for each other. Both have kids.

This woman said she ENVIES this cheating couple b/c "they will have soft landings and THEY have such a deep love" that each is willing to lose their children for the other.

I'm flabbergasted. The cliches about how miserable they will be "someday" and their guilt, their shame haunting them, etc

all sound a little hollow to me at the moment. Let's admit it, some couples who are both cheaters, seem just fine down the road, don't they? I know it's very unfair. But so is my friend with cancer and another friend who lost a child to an unknown weird heart defect.

That's unfair too, yet it happens.


Thoughts?

[25yearsmlc]

Reading my own post and am annoyed.

Way way too much about being in my h's head. Random musings/frustrations (I'll elaborate if need be but these are comments I tell myself when I start to spin.

YES I am in a hurry to rush thru this b/c I was already here 10 years ago. Wasted a year+ of time "Why?WHYWHYWHYWHY?????"

Well. NOT THIS TIME. It'll be October when it's a year since I saw him, and we separated. By then I shall be done with this, I swear, by then.: (Please let me be done by then!)



1) on one hand, "hey, 25, it's OKAY you're a little stuck, it's a process! It was a 35 year marriage with 3 kids! OF course its hard to just "detach".
You don't have to race through this and be ALL done by... Tuesday, July 16th...at 930am. It's okay to backslide and process all of this. It is a LOT to unravel 3+decades of a life and family you built together, and a 5393 plans and dreams you had are not shelved OR experienced alone...

..PLUS you are in a $hitStorm right now with other events and needy kids, and no money for the first time in years & years.....and it hurts and you are reeling from other life events AND your h is really obnoxiously painful to you and the kids. If he knew how painful it is, would he also realize it's going to cost him MORE b/c I'm not at all interested in settling for less...who knows? Who cares??

BACK TO ME...

2) I want to have my own, "new" life in order. H had a head start, for sure. It sure looks like it! I want to be living my own life without him in it. Now...So,

Goal#1
get h out of my head.

3) Balance these^^^ factors...

How?

A) Detach. How?

1) Start with daily (hourly?) affirmations and Mantras to help redirect your thoughts. e.g.

"H was NOT kind to me or the kids for the past X years. So regardless of who he may be to others, or who he acts like he has become later, - He was not good to us and would not have changed for us. I had no choice but to file, and would have been miserable if I had not filed.

That^^ is what I KNOW. That's all I need to know now.

b) He is acting badly and causes me and kids MORE pain by renting my headspace...

Good riddance to lunacy. My future and my kids future, won't have a cray cray man in it anymore. No sudden escalations of tension or awkward moments or holidays clouded by h's snap comments and no disagreeable treatment on vacations.

SO, less h = less cray cray crap.

This is a good thing and this,^^ we KNOW.

Affirmations - "25, embrace the change life has given you. Enjoy your new life with reliable, loyal honest loved ones, less tension and doubt in your primary r, and the opportunity to find that elsewhere..."

Next step to GET HIM OUT OF MY HEAD...STOP SIGN and Good riddance...turn it over, for real

GAL...what kind? What costs the least but gives the most fun?

Travel is on your horizon and it will be to a place ON YOUR Bucket list, no one else's.
Will ponder

Also - Must use new anger as a call to action, complete ALL the divorce paperwork and detective work as he is STILL be hiding money. Let the L's handle it and GAL

More GAL

Join a divorceCare group so you have a PLACE with real people, where you can vent, but which does not poison every other event you attend.

(Keep DB ing online, b/c that's helpful and we can vent here but it's not = GAL.)

I'm in a book club, good.

Maintain time in a writer's group (meet up.com has a million different interest groups) Continue to socialize with new people at least once a week, while also seeing my regular peeps once a week.

Pursue professional goals


MORE GAL...(con't)

plan a trip after the Div hearing (in late July).

Open to dating...try online and dip my toe in the water.

Physical - get knee scoped so I can hike and dance again.

Take subway into city to museums, with a friend or just go.

Audition at local theater or one in DC

Signed up for wine pairing class, in June.

Getting some sleep now...will touch this list again, later...

Thanks for letting me ramble.

I actually do feel better

[kml]

I feel you on the kids. I thought our initial reconciliation when the kids were young teens was the best thing for them. And since Ex had never moved out of the house, and we had s good reconciliation for a few years until the youngest was a high school senior, I would have thought it was for the best. It was long after our split when I learned the kids had always been waiting for the other shoe to drop. Staying together really hasn't provided them with as much stability as I had hoped, because apparently they were still living in fear the whole time, even when I thought things were good.

[OwnIt]

Why does it matter that he has head start? He has a head start because he is not trying to learn, heal, and go into his next relationship as a better person. I look at mine and think wow, he's been gone since Oct and is already well into his second "serious" relationship. Then I go, whoa, he's the same POS he has always done and will never have a meaningful relationship until he does the work he needs to do. And I know the likelihood of that.

Who cares what that you know what is doing. He is stuck, stuck, stuck. He is angry and ashamed and too stubborn to right his wrongs. You are going to heal, fly and soar. You are ahead in every way that matters--except it doesn't.

Time to start living 25!

[25yearsmlc]

KML

I know what you mean about the kids waiting for the other shoe to drop after a recon. Other than increased income, my perception was also that there was more security & stability for them by reconciling. We stayed in their childhood home, another 7 years and that has to count for something. But there was stress in the house and now h remembers things so differently.


Today, d19 got a letter from h informing her in a very convoluted way, that he will Not be paying for her college anymore. She's finishing her sophomore year and we paid 3/4 of the other kids college,

(Our deal was that the kids would be more invested in their college and selection, if they had to pay some of their own. We put ourselves through so much schooling, it seemed fair and reasonable.)

But now h has changed the deal, unilaterally. His letter was very self serving, and as if he's sending her one rambling "here is how you can be on your own, it'll be good for you...health insurance info----here --- and hope you have enough money for tuition and blah blah blah"

WTF?

He seems to be blaming me for his not paying but he's kind of all over the place. The letter is dated a month ago, claims he "retired as of 1 April" (I note the clarity of date in his letter) and there are many lines crossed out. Unusual for him and H has very good penmanship, but the letter was sloppy and filled with facts NO 19 y/o would need or grasp. Self serving about how HE is still covering her for insurance for now...(I think??)
. How many kids that age know the difference between an HMO/PPO?

Oh and he's required by law to keep her covered, so I can't decipher the meaning...

He discusses a Veteran's program/funds that she received & qualified for, thru him, but OOPS, it might be wrong. So she might have to pay it back to the federal government!.. (What???)

He blames his refusal to pay more, on my getting spousal support which, as I've said, he totally opposes in court. And I have not gotten.


Hey, maybe the good hopeful news is that h expects to pay me spousal support???

except no, I don't think he's doing that. I think he's hiding money, income and washing his hands of me and our children...either we have been permanently replaced, or he

is operating under the assumption that "hey, they'll get over all this, in time" or "when I make money and they see me SO HAPPY and THEN it'll all be worth it" b/c I know a lot of WAS's who believe kids are resilient AND THEREFORE the departing parent will of course be forgiven.

FTR, h's dad mistreated his mom in their divorce. H always resented it but never said a word to his father.

And Truth be told, FIL is very very difficult for everyone in our family, including h. And our kids...

But now, FIL owns a mansion in Cabo San Lucas and has a stunning mountain side ranch in Washington State.

IF not for those beautiful^^ places, I seriously doubt we'd visit FIL much. Before he had those places, we rarely stayed more than a few days every few years.


My kids see great injustice and of course there IS great injustice. Heck yes, I see it too.

But as Own says, what's the difference? Well, I hear you. This post wasn't really prompted by my own brain, yet.

It's what the female lawyer said at the DivorceCare group, that struck me.

She mentioned the 2 adulterers at her firm, who are leaving their families for each other. She envious of the cheaters. She said "the [cheaters] have such a great love and will have such a soft landing, while their families will be heartbroken....."

and here in DBland, we deny that^^. I know I don't want to believe her.

Here, We say the WAS's will be haunted by the pain they have caused and tbh, I've heard of a few of them - the WAS's in real life say things like "if I'd known how much pain this A and Div would cause, I would not have done it". I have known an OW call the ex wife to ask where the WAH was, b/c she (the OW-now wife#2) couldn't find him...so the h was still cheating.

So yes, I know SOME WAS's regret their decisions. And of those who do, some will tell the LBSer and of those who tell the LBSer, some will make an effort to repair the damage they've done.

Guess we need some belief to hold onto, to believe that all will be fair and just in the end. But I know a lot of 2nd marriages (or 3rd) who don't SEEM to have much regret about leaving. They have justified it for so long they now believe it.

OR OR do we let go of that need for fairness in our eyes, and instead just address what WE are going to do and who we are going to be, from this day forward? You know, the whole "Best revenge is a life well lived"< thing?

And even if our WAS were on Mars, and could never hear of how great we were doing, we would know that we had improved the trajectory of our lives. I think that has to be enough and besides, our kids don't want us to be victims or become bitter. They are watching us and want us to be happy. No matter what...

Unfair things happen and I'm not the first woman in this position AND in the grand scheme of themes, I'm better off than 90% of women. I DO KNOW THIS.

My question was more rhetorical. Do the WAS's ever really regret their departures?

Are they haunted by inflicting pain on the people who loved them most?

My h is a fool to have left for Alaska, instead of staying in a m to a woman who was loyal and loving, with 3 children who are smart, kind and hilarious and talented. We have SO MUCH history.

I know that as I enter the dating world, I will look to see how much contact the men I'd date, have with their children.

If it's limited or non existent, that's a red flag.

((( )))

[25yearsmlc]

Do I "do" anything about h cutting our d19 off from college tuition?

I cannot pay for it. If I prevail in court in late July, and or get a well paying job, I'd be able to help. And I would.

But H turned down a well paying MD job to "retire" after the court ordered him to pay me spousal support.

H took out a school loan for our son while H did a fellowship (which did not pay much). Otherwise H earned high 6 figures...

Yet he won't do the same for d19. SIGH...I have to stop putting a rational spin (me trying to understand) on irrational behavior.

OR maybe I have to stop trying to frame this as a misguided but loving decision, when it may be simply selfish and greedy and unloving.

Ouch.

[exquisitetobe]

Simple... he wants a new life with a new woman. Of course you and your children will be neglected and put aside. If he wanted the life he had with all of you, he would have stayed. MLCer do not want responsabilities. It pisses them off to be responsable snd accountable for others. They are after the fairytale. Stay in reality 25, stay real.

[Sotto]

I'm sorry to hear your H decided not to fund the tuition. I suspect contacting him to try and resolve it wouldn't be productive. However, securing it in the divorce settlement may be an option perhaps?

From all that you've posted, he seems to have the mindset of - I've been supporting others financially for years and now I'm going to have some 'me' time and avoid paying any more than I absolutely have to. I suspect once your settlement is agreed, he may begin working again...

I'm not familiar with the law over there, but I would certainly run it by your L for an opinion? Hope you have a nice weekend. Xx

[25yearsmlc]

I'm sorry to hear your H decided not to fund the tuition. I suspect contacting him to try and resolve it wouldn't be productive. However, securing it in the divorce settlement may be an option perhaps?

Definitely not productive to reach out though God knows I am sorely tempted...

It will somehow be addressed in the divorce. MY L's first reaction was that "in effect, 25 would then be paying, which is BS" and I agree.

H knows it's my achilles heel. Sotto, the most striking piece of this TO ME, is that by doing this, h is burning some bridges, isn't he?

Does he either not care about his R's with the kids, or believes they'll all improve eventually, or if they don't, then it's MY fault or theirs and he can just keep hiding...

or stick around his new fan base who can admire him? BTW if he's not working at all, which I don't believe, but IF...then how great a catch is a retired MD who has no R's with his kids?

It would very much strike me as odd if I were an OW or her kids...


From all that you've posted, he seems to have the mindset of - I've been supporting others financially for years and now I'm going to have some 'me' time and avoid paying any more than I absolutely have to.

Oh yes,^^^ his letter is filled with a self serving list of HIS contributions. (never "ours" but always just HIS). He expects that since he is SO HAPPY everyone else should be happy FOR HIM. And his delightful "retirement with OW..."

The health insurance almost made me laugh. He HAS to cover d. (And me, btw. We were a military family so it comes with the deal.) But he listed that as something and it's not relevant to her tuition so...why mention it?

Yes I know. To pat himself on the back and reassure himself that he's a good dad. But my kids say he's "officially abandoning" d19. I sometimes wish they would not be so blunt b/c I feel very sad for d19. A bff of mine said "but if h does not love them, why not say it?"

1) I cannot believe he has no love for d19 and or our other children.

2) even if I were convinced of that (and sadly, it's possible he does not like d19 much, as she is VERY different from him and very honest with him

I would still not believe I should ever tell her that.

Am I wrong?



I suspect once your settlement is agreed, he may begin working again...

um, yeah...he may take a month or two to admit it but IF IF IF he's not working now, (hard hard to believe for all who know him and it would be literally the ONLY time he's not working in the 38 years I've known him)

but if I were a betting woman, I'd bet that he will openly then work and invite the kids to see him at his expense, and feel good about how everyone has gotten past the... "unpleasantness"...

I'm not familiar with the law over there, but I would certainly run it by your L for an opinion? Hope you have a nice weekend. Xx

I did email my L. I know my d19 is very stressed with the court stuff and now, this.

I'll have a good weekend. I am going to GET OUT OF MY CONDO and I will enjoy the holiday.

Thank you.

((( )))

[25yearsmlc]

Simple... he wants a new life with a new woman. Of course you and your children will be neglected and put aside. If he wanted the life he had with all of you, he would have stayed. MLCer do not want responsabilities. It pisses them off to be responsable snd accountable for others. They are after the fairytale. Stay in reality 25, stay real.

I hear you. He absolutely sees himself as a victim. Given my hospitalization and what he was doing then, he - either forgets that, (??) or somehow dismisses it (Not serious??)

and I simply will never be able to understand how someone could do that. To anyone, let alone the mother of their children. It can only mean he's not a good man. Ouch.

So I guess my questions are half rhetorical and half reality based.

The rhetorical ones are "HOW THE HE!! DO YOU DO THIS & NOT FEEL LIKE CRAP??"

and the answer is unknowable, or "easy, I don't look/I justified it all", which is too hard to wrap my brain around.

So far...


Another useless Rhetorical question - is wondering IF/WHEN he will see the wreckage he created...and the answer to that is "who knows? Maybe never"

Another answer I think is likely, is "even if h someday sees

wreckage he created - he won't tell you ---that he REGRETS it, but rather that he feels he lost something & it hurts HIM...= self pity, not an awakening".

So the reality based questions are all about HOW I HELP, myself, my kids, especially d19. Looking into L's for d19 up north, and job hunting for me...but mainly I help myself and my kids

by doing as my L says, and GAL.

The happier and more at peace my kids see me as being, is truly what is best for THEM, too.

I really hope for my sake AND THEIRS that I prevail in court in July. I'll ask for prayers then and meanwhile.

Sometimes writing these ^^ things out really does keep it simple.

It's very damn hard. But sometimes it's just not that complicated.

[25yearsmlc]

exquisite,

how are your EX H's relationships with the kids, now?

[Sotto]

The state of not really wondering what or why is a peaceful one to get to. I went through all of those questions WRT XH. What I always come back to now is - stick to me and my stuff. His stuff is his to own. Will he ever? How will he feel? That's up to him.

I'm with you on - wouldn't OW think that is odd? Well, OWs get involved in some pretty bad situations as we know. Through all that happened, XH has become a guy I wouldn't date. Twice married and the second time he was unfaithful. But of course in many situations that is glossed over. I do think any wound to another is ultimately a wound to ourselves though - and also that things do take a while to work through too..

Again I come back to - the only person I have to share a bed with is me. And I want to feel comfortable and at peace with myself...whether he feels at peace with himself is of course up to him and has nothing to do with me any more. I'm glad to say that...

Take care, and hope you find something nice to do today...always good to get out & blow the cobwobs away....

[exquisitetobe]

well, ex-h get what he has put in. None of them will sacrifice a plan they made in order to spend time with him.

Daughter21 will let him know she comes home only if she comes for a full week. they go out for supper and she is right back here. If he visits her, she will be cordial but she will not hesitate to tell him if it is not a good time.

Son18 found a good paying job in Ex-H' s town. He is around ex-h the most yet do not talk nor do things together. Ex-H did not even know Son had registered to go to College this fall. There is NO COMMUNICATION. Son lives in his bedroom or hang around his friends or works. On his days off, he is here. In other words, Son has a free room and board while working.

Daughter17 goes to ex-h when she feels sorry for him. Maybe once a month if even. She is the most sensitive of all 4. She is also the one Ex-H talks to the most about his feelings. It worries me sometimes because even thou he tells her how sorry he is for the choices he made, he does not do anything to change the outcome. Words/ actions. She is the one reporting and asking the most questions. She want to study psychology and social work. Her dream is to help children who struggle. Their relationship is on a part-time basis. On and off.

Daughter14. this father-daughter relationship surprised me... Remember the feeling of not being good enough, at time of bomb? Well, she was 6 years old then and for ex-h, she was perfect. She accepted him leaving without much thought. SHE WAS 6 !!!! well, this changed. He made accusation toward her witch she did NOT accept and now, she makes excuses why she cannot go to his place.

Visitations were never respected and no longer exist. The kids run the show. They make their own decision and he takes whoever is willing to go. Again, maybe once a month if he is lucky.

25, None of his outcome matters to me. My outcome does. Ex-H is getting the fruit of his labour and I have mine. Ex-H is not a great catch. Many OW gave him a shot. Will one finally stay? If she feels like she must settle for him. With that said, what does it say about her? Ex-H has cash but you become his possession not his life partner. You become the responsible one and he will make sure you will not have a life other than a life that benefits him. (narcissist)

I do feel sorry for my Ex. I wish him well. Maybe he is happier?? At what cost? Not one I am willing to pay.

My self-esteem, self worth, my values, my pride, my peace of mind are worth so much more then having a dysfunctional family with ex-h. As hard as it was to get through this, deep in my heart, I know it was the right thing to do. Maybe he feels the same way since he has never shown us otherwise.

We are becoming deep-thinker. lol For the Big D, stick to facts, not emotions.

My prayers are with you 25! xox

[adinva]

Your x 25 is turning out to be like mine. In VA there is zero obligation for x's to pay for college and i've been told it's a tough sell if it goes to court. We pay for S19 through an account we had sellaved for kids college, not even enough to pay one year each but so far has covered the cost for S19 above the dinky amount of fed loans he qualified for. Then he'LL have to get private loans. Your D can get private loans? Suxx but what can you do.

I suspect that letter and the not-paying is a jab at you for requesting support. When ppl do bad things they sometimes lash out at their victim, weird but normal, somehow lets him feel justified.

Never tell kids their Dad doesn't love them. Not for you to say. Listen to and sympathize with their feelings and encourage them to express those feelings to their dad when they feel ready to. It's between them and their dad and not good for you to try to interpret him to them.

(These are just conclusions I reached facing similar H issues)

[25yearsmlc]

Your x 25 is turning out to be like mine. In VA there is zero obligation for x's to pay for college and i've been told it's a tough sell if it goes to court. We pay for S19 through an account we had sellaved for kids college, not even enough to pay one year each but so far has covered the cost for S19 above the dinky amount of fed loans he qualified for. Then he'LL have to get private loans. Your D can get private loans? Suxx but what can you do.


In CA, case law seems to say if one or both parents can afford it, we are supposed to pay for college IF it was an expectation we created and agreed to, before.
Which is true, and we did so for the older kids.

H's argument SEEMS to be that he cannot afford it as he has "retired". I'm not positive what happens when h goes back to work (assuming he isn't now, for the first time ever).

Can D get private loans? Not without a co-signer, which I guess would be ME.

Question -?? Before I let D19 quit school or take on some insane (if available) amount of debt, shouldn't I inform h's parents (FIL and step mother in law)?

They are very wealthy (and h will be inheriting a lot when his dad passes away).

is that tacky, or airing too much dirty laundry? If I share any info with FIL, how to do it?







I suspect that letter and the not-paying is a jab at you for requesting support. When ppl do bad things they sometimes lash out at their victim, weird but normal, somehow lets him feel justified.

Clearly^^^

Never tell kids their Dad doesn't love them. Not for you to say.

I would NEVER tell my kids their dad does not love them. First, I don't think that's true. Second, it would not be my place and finally, I would never tell them something like that anyhow.

My only quandary was b/c of a BFF who is into "truth at all costs" person, and while I respect that, I don't agree. (Plus, how do I "know" how h feels? He sukks as a dad right now, but that's his problem).

I'm a mother and my job is to love my kids and help them feel loved, including assuring them of their dad's love.

However, my kids have asked me quite clearly NOT to "defend" their dad OR tell them that he loves them. That's a new development. So I'll respect their boundaries but I won't translate that into saying he does NOT love them.

Make sense?


Listen to and sympathize with their feelings and encourage them to express those feelings to their dad when they feel ready to. It's between them and their dad and not good for you to try to interpret him to them.

(These are just conclusions I reached facing similar H issues)

Agreed

[NLW]

25,

Another old-timer coming out here (Hi, Advina!).

I've taken a lot from your recent posts - so thank you sincerely for taking the time to let us know about the next phase of your journey.

I am in a similar position to that described by you - and although in a different country, I suspect the MLC response will be the same.

Mine refused to pay court-ordered child support (which specifically detailed school fees).

He is self-employed and consistently maintained that he earned less than minimum wage (while travelling the world, holding memberships at exclusive clubs, and leasing a luxury car).

Child support agency tries to chase him, but he is too slippery.

My youngest son recently turned 18 and qualified for 'Adult Child Maintenance' because he is at university.
Ex-H refused to pay, as he says he doesn't earn any money.

Son now has to sue his father via a legal-aid lawyer in an attempt to get some assistance.

I know he won't pay, but like the outstanding child support payments, once 'on the books', in my country, these debts never disappear. If necessary, they are taken out of a deceased estate. If there is anything left when he dies, I think that's the only way my kids will see their money.

Our twist on Alaska is that ex-H has moved permanently to a third-world country (living in a hotel). When my son contacted him recently to give him a heads-up about his responsibility to contribute to university costs, ex-H said that he'd had to move b/c it was 'too heartbreaking for him to live in the same city as his kids (sob, sob)."

Basically, it was a case of "Poor me, my kids don't want to have anything to do with me...I think I see them around the city all the time; I can't get them out of my mind.. I feel sad. = They have made me run away."

In his defense, when asked by S18 for some support to attend university, ex-H immediately suggested S take a gap year (he was already 5 months in to first semester) and he would pay for him to come out to Cambodia and live with him. They could travel all around to neighbouring countries and have a great time!

Just no point even trying to reason with them.... It's such a strange pattern is it not?

[kml]

My ex insisted on putting college costs into the divorce agreement. Both lawyers actually advised us not to do this but he was insistent, as if he thought I wouldn't pay my share. In the end, I was so glad it was there, as I don't think I could have relied on him for anything otherwise.

As it is, if youngest son ever decides to return to college I doubt Ex will contribute as he will be over the age limit set in the agreement . I will probably delay my retirement to help him.

And yes, even with alimony ( which expires in a year) my ex takes home twice what I do, AND his wife works, he has a nice mid-six-figure income yet is always squawking like he's poor.!

[25yearsmlc]

well KML

there's no divorce agreement and so that's just not applicable. In CA, I've been told one thing (that it's a parental obligation and thus, not related to spousal support )

and I have read case law that says it depends on what the reasonable expectation of the child is and the income of the paying parent (or expected paying parent).

H is putting all his chips on the "Oh, I retired!" board.

Honestly, despite all the crap he has pulled, and the things he has said and FB posts about how HAPPY he is now and blah blah blah, so that I try to treat him as dead to me,

I actually did not see this coming. I thought he'd feel heroic about paying...boy was I wrong. I keep underestimating hs ability to see himself as a victim. And I admit I hate the OW now.

I mean, she wasn't really of significance to me before, but now I'm irked like he11. I swear to God if I were dating someone and they told me they could "no longer afford" to pay for their own kid's college, I'd be shocked. NOT okay with it and would probably stop seeing them. Period.

(Of course, maybe he'll pay for HER kids...??? I don't even know anymore...)

And mind you, this is the gay d19 who was assaulted and arrested 2 weeks ago.

Okay...I don't want to spin. It's getting really late.

Thanks guys.

Truly

[PsySara]

I am always stunned at how WAWs can shed their obligations like a snake shedding their skin. I sometimes wonder if you could travel back in time and show the WAS what kind of person they become if they would be horrified? The sad fact is they usually realize what they have done when it's way too late to make repairs. Part of me wonders if this is a symptom of first world selfishness? I rarely read about this behavior in countries where people have to scrape just to eat.

Honestly I hate OW for you. I have to ask myself what kind of low life dates a person who neglects their loved ones? It's a matter of time before OW loses her novelty and starts expecting the same level of maintenance and care, then he'll shed her as well.

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=PsySara]I am always stunned at how WAWs can shed their obligations like a snake shedding their skin. I sometimes wonder if you could travel back in time and show the WAS what kind of person they become if they would be horrified?


Good question, which got me pondering...
My guess (and partially to console myself) is that it will take the passage of more time before h realizes any loss. Like we'd have to know how it goes for them in 5 years b/c they justify what is going on now OR they don't see the downside AND OR they are in la la land. THEY have their immediate needs met and don't have to look around yet.

To h, as of yet, he got OW's family at Christmas and assumes "in time" the kids will come around. THey're resilient!

D19 told me sometime ago that after college she did not expect much or any contact with h. (I actually think she felt that way before we split). This is suspected by h and now he can save money and not lose more than he already lost, with d19?? The insane part is that h seems to think all of his behaviors are in a vacuum.

How he treats ME affects his r's with the kids, which he does not seem to realize. Ironic since his dad treated his mom badly in the divorce and h always resented that and never said a word to his dad. Think about that....

As for OW - she's the type of Christian who posts on FB about her faith, and dates a married man (this was last summer at the latest) and sees him lose his family but either is happy about it b/c then she gets a DOCTOR (I have to put that in caps as an inside joke from First Wives Club) as a step dad and h,

AND OR she believes I turned my kids against h, and h has paid SO MUCH for HIS (never "our" kids and never "we" paid, just HIM) we should all just be grateful. Plus I must be an overspending wife (God I wish, what with all my bling)

In OW's eyes, the cost of private college for our older kids is a huge amount. It's huge to me. So was h's salary.

Somewhere inside me I fear h will pay for her kids' college. That just occurred to me. Gross.

BACK to the question, we know one thing about MLC/WAS, which is fairly universal.

They do NOT look far down the road in a way that reflects poorly on them, or that has a bad outcome for them.

In my case, I know for a fact that h's bff warned him against going down this road. H's bff went thru this as a child when his own dad impregnated his OW and bff had to meet his "new stepmom/half brother" at the age of 10.

Bff's dad later divorced OW#1, and the halfbrother, and his dad married OW#3

when #3 left bff's dad, the dad fell apart and eventually took his own life. So that is the experience h's bff had in HIS childhood and he has warned h many times that this is a bad road to take, especially for the kids.

By the way, the best husband and father I know, is h's bff. These cycles can be broken.

Bff said "h won't listen, he doesn't get it"...

So we would have to have a telescope farther into the future, like 5 years and see that h is not around or involved in the graduation (I doubt d19 will invite him at all) and if he is invited to a wedding, all the awkwardness of it will radiate.

Will it be THEN that he wishes he'd done things differently? OR will he still say "too bad 25 didn't just come up to Alaska with me like she should have?"

Gosh, in truth I think it'd be easier for h to blame me even then...and never look in the mirror as to why our children and my family (which is huge) and his bff don't see him the same way.

H's bff is really disappointed that h lied to him about not cheating. Says "h swore up and down he did not", but it's obvious now. Why lie to your bff?? Bff would still love h.

That's the piece of this that made me first wonder about the narcissist trait in which what matters is not your behavior but how others see it...

Sara, maybe the answer is that they won't view themselves as bad or wrong or that the choices even cost them anything, (other than money)

unless they know they are viewed differently.



The sad fact is they usually realize what they have done when it's way too late to make repairs. Part of me wonders if this is a symptom of first world selfishness? I rarely read about this behavior in countries where people have to scrape just to eat.

Interesting.

True, most of this behavior is the behavior of the leisure class. And to an extent, so are our views. Our suffering is mostly ego, compared to 3rd world issues. I mean, if a WAH pays CS or alimony and the LBSer gets half the assets,

in the 3rd world, who would complain about that?

I heard a TED Talk by a Vietnamese refugee grown up in America and he discusses the lack of the subjunctive in his language ("would have/could have/should have") A lot of cultures and languages lack the subjunctive.

His point was that we ruminate a lot more than some cultures. His family would just deal with what is and plan for their future, not looking back.

And I have to say he has a point.


Honestly I hate OW for you. I have to ask myself what kind of low life dates a person who neglects their loved ones?

I understand that Sara. Believe me, one of my greatest achievement in this is not ever looking her up on FB and blocking h.

Like how could she encourage him to do this? H dated the letter to D19 early April but she just got it. Did HE pause or what?

I'm told OW posts about her faith in Jesus, God, etc on fb. OW Likes the world to know she's a good Christian. That tells me she cares about how she is viewed, which is really telling. Maybe not so much about what is real, but how she is seen....

h invited s30 to meet her in Mexico in March but s30 declined, OMG I hope that didn't hurt OW's feelings???!! If it did, it would have just annoyed h.

Anyhow h MUST have told OW I turned the kids against him. How else do you explain not seeing your kids since you moved?

Over the years, H said a few times that I "brainwashed the MC's" we saw b/c I'm good at words. Mind you, he was there with me.

We saw 4 different MC's over the years for the SAME issue, which was his obsession with Alaska. Each one gently or overtly said "h, you are not making the decisions of a man with a family
/you are acting like a single man/
you are not considering your w's feelings/
your children moving 2 more times at critical times in their lives",
"when are you going to be 'done becoming what you want to be in life'? etc

no one agreed with him. This caused seething resentment which, evidently, grew and festered over the years. OW lives in Alaska, & is from there. Problem solved !!

So she either blames me for distance between H and our kids, OR She likes the idea that he can supplant her own exh

or who knows? A friend in Alaska called her a "man whore" and I don't know what that means.

I just know h treated me badly towards the end, and I could not have moved there for him, again. And that was the choice I was presented with.

[25yearsmlc]

It's a matter of time before OW loses her novelty and starts expecting the same level of maintenance and care, then he'll shed her as well. [/quote]

Of course this^^ could happen. She will not compare well to me in every way even in h's eyes.

To be objective she doesn't compare well to me in anyone's eyes other than she jogs...
but h is not objective. I am the reason for all his ills and I am why he's not farther ahead in life and I'm the reason his kids are not close to him and blah blah blah.

But even in HIS eyes, there will come a day when she doesn't make him laugh (which I freaking did) or get his joke, or know something I know, that bothers him. OR she will disagree or snap at him. Even OW's are human.

And yet For some reason, my gut says SHE will end it, not h. H can come on strong and sweep you off your feet, and he tends to go all in, in every new hobby or venture (or relationship).

I'm told OW has not posted about them on FB nor has she said she's "in a R". That struck me since she is supposedly divorced. ("An abusive ex h"....okay...)

Maybe she's still married, maybe she fears her ex h but Since it's THIS OW naturally i'm skeptical of her having legit reasons. Who knows?

OR maybe she's not as into him or going public. I don't know.
I don't want to read into that, however.

I do think that going so public about it on h's end, means he's cornering himself into having to marry her or what?

To H, being alone will mean failure unless he's dating up a storm and rolling in the money (but since he "retired" that will have to remain hidden for some time, and he may want to hurry this divorce up so he can openly work and remarry)

I hate feeling like I'm in high school with this sense of "competition"...

Sara, I need to remind myself of the 3rd world and 1st world selfishness.

Much as this hurts and infuriates me, there are 3 remaining "future facts"


1) I will survive this and not starve, even if I get "screwed" by h in the divorce. I won't be homeless. And let's hope I'm freed financially of horrific worries so I can LIVE MY LIFE WELL.

2) When I begin to think of h's selfishness - I must remind myself not to get too carried away b/c as your comment has prodded me to see,

we really do have it pretty good in the grand scheme of things. Shelter and food and some form of medical care...puts us ahead of most of the planet.

3) my children are who I must protect. I just don't know exactly what that all means right now.

Protect from truth?

Seeing ME at peace, is probably what's best for them over all

b/c otherwise I won't be able to support them emotionally. I don't know what details they need or don't need. They obviously know d19 was cut off.

Ugh

[25yearsmlc]

ONLINE DATING


So I signed up for it last night. Kind of felt good to just dip my toe and start this part of my life, and though I'm not ready for a RELATIONSHIP no one is proposing one yet, so one thing at a time...


THANK GOD KML and OWN warned me about not giving out my phone number

(I will read the posts about getting a burner phone with my own number (???) on it soon.)


So last night a young guy NOT in the age range I selected (??) and not in my geographical area (???)

starts "chatting" with me and says he wants to meet me and yada yada but he's 1000 miles away.

And he's too young. Which I tell him, plus the distance.

But he comes on strong and I'm mildly put off AND mildly flattered both at once.

THEN He asks for my number b/c he wants to send me some pics.

And KML's warning about "dic pics" resonated so

I said "oh, I don't want dick pics"

and he said "Oh, okay" and went away.

God, I'm laughing and so grateful you guys warned me.

What a time. I will for sure need advice b/c a LOT of friends say online dating makes sense and so does Accuray!

But there are for sure some awkward weirdo obstacles to meeting a normal person.

[Sotto]

Wow - sounds like OLD got off to an eventful start!! That is great advice about caution and I'm sure it will become apparent if something is a little 'off' when someone gets in touch. Many genuine people OLD and I'm sure you will meet some.

Best of luck xx

[OwnIt]

25--download the burner app on your phone. You will then pick the area code you want and it will give you phone number choices. You give that number out to the potential pervs. If they are, block them. If you are still getting offensive calls (blocks are very easy to avoid) then just burn that number and start all over again. Easy as pie. Rings into your regular phone.

[25yearsmlc]

25,

Another old-timer coming out here (Hi, Advina!).

I've taken a lot from your recent posts - so thank you sincerely for taking the time to let us know about the next phase of your journey.

I am in a similar position to that described by you - and although in a different country, I suspect the MLC response will be the same.

Mine refused to pay court-ordered child support (which specifically detailed school fees).

He is self-employed and consistently maintained that he earned less than minimum wage (while travelling the world, holding memberships at exclusive clubs, and leasing a luxury car).

Child support agency tries to chase him, but he is too slippery.

as a L, this^^ has always annoyed me. Really annoyed me. The laws SAY we get "X" amount but if all the guy has to do is lie with impunity, who cares what the laws say?

You have to wonder if the people writing these laws knew that...okay I don't want to get too conspiratorial but this problem is NOT new


My youngest son recently turned 18 and qualified for 'Adult Child Maintenance' because he is at university.
Ex-H refused to pay, as he says he doesn't earn any money.

Son now has to sue his father via a legal-aid lawyer in an attempt to get some assistance.

how lovely for your son. Btw, my s30 is a good young man. So help me if he ever pulled this crap on his future family, yours truly would be out there in a heartbeat..."splainin' to him"

I know he won't pay, but like the outstanding child support payments, once 'on the books', in my country, these debts never disappear. If necessary, they are taken out of a deceased estate. If there is anything left when he dies, I think that's the only way my kids will see their money.

there is something to be said for having it "official" in some way. I understand and you never know, maybe there's a treasure there. In h's case, his father is quite wealthy and I DO want my FIL to know that his youngest grandchild is being cut off.

God only knows what h has been telling his family.

Our twist on Alaska is that ex-H has moved permanently to a third-world country (living in a hotel). When my son contacted him recently to give him a heads-up about his responsibility to contribute to university costs, ex-H said that he'd had to move b/c it was 'too heartbreaking for him to live in the same city as his kids (sob, sob)."

I had to read this^^ a few times to grasp it. So, your son would be NEAR his dad and so now your ex h must move??

Okay...so if I have that right, it means your x is either a criminal and or a what?? I mean, who hides from their kids?

My h ran, but I would THINK if my kids were there...well, come to think of it, h would have to hide that he's still working at the same place but hiding income.

Good grief, who did we marry?


Basically, it was a case of "Poor me, my kids don't want to have anything to do with me...I think I see them around the city all the time; I can't get them out of my mind.. I feel sad. = They have made me run away."

In his defense, when asked by S18 for some support to attend university, ex-H immediately suggested S take a gap year (he was already 5 months in to first semester) and he would pay for him to come out to Cambodia and live with him. They could travel all around to neighbouring countries and have a great time!

well, that only makes sense in the "Good times" buddy buddy I'm not really a dad, way.

Or I'm wrong and have to reconsider. It just makes no sense with the other "now i have to move".

You'd think your x would lie about why he's moving. Like "oh I got a small buy paying job ELSEWHERE ..."

and not make it so personal.


Just no point even trying to reason with them.... It's such a strange pattern is it not?

Strange but evidently not rare. So here are a few random remarks...


1) don't try to put a rational spin on irrational behavior

2) even if we had a crystal ball that could (accurately) see into their minds, the things we would see would still not necessarily "make sense" - events that did not happen as they believe or did not mean what they believe,

AND the emotions & thoughts we understood would change the next day/week/month and back again! Not that valuable a tool.

3) the hardest pain to accept is usually pain we don't understand. So we get bogged down into trying to make sense of things.

In some cases it's just a waste of time. I mean that more than I ever have.

My dear friend LC, lost her 22 y/o son last fall, out of nowhere. On his way to a job interview. He was athletic and it turns out he had an unknown cardiac defect that only affects 1 in 500,000 and it presented without symptoms and he's gone. Dropped down, said he couldn't breathe and had a heart attack at age 22. The end.

This friend has tried so hard to make sense of this enormous loss. She sends ME good thoughts and cards and book suggestions as both our lives have changed dramatically.

(Trust me, I'd rather be me than her). She's such a kind person.

Point is, there's no "Sense" to her son's death. She has one other child and a h. And decades left of life.

She informed me that some sharks can only live if they keep moving b/c their gills/lungs don't work without movement. They have to keep moving or they will die.

We have to keep moving forward or we will be stuck and that will be terrible for our kids AND ourselves. Life is so short and tomorrow is promised to no one.

I believe with all my heart that the best thing we can do for our kids is live well and be at peace.

That's my goal for me and for them. Figuring out how is my task.

But get those CS debts on the books. You never know.

Do you ever ponder about when your son marries, what your h will think or do. If he will be invited?

Will he Send a card with a big check and feel like all is well that ends well??

Good grief.

[25yearsmlc]

25--download the burner app on your phone. You will then pick the area code you want and it will give you phone number choices. You give that number out to the potential pervs. If they are, block them. If you are still getting offensive calls (blocks are very easy to avoid) then just burn that number and start all over again. Easy as pie. Rings into your regular phone.

So I take my iPhone I have in my paws now, and I download a free app? And then I choose a number from their options, and if someone uses that number it rings on my phone?

AND I will know it is coming to that "burner" Number, so it can only be one of the men I give my number to, right?

And when do I pay and to whom?

[25yearsmlc]

PS

THANK YOU

and also, should I keep a gallery of dic pics? IF so, where to post them, as this does not seem like the appropriate place? Maybe We should ask Ellie

[OwnIt]

Yes the app is free, but you have to pay for the number. You pay through your itunes account if you have an iphone and however you normally pay for apps if you don't. Easy as pie. Takes a minute. I think it is like $5.99 per month for a number.

[OwnIt]

But yes, you have the operation of the thing down.

I would really hate to see that gallery. Having married young and been faithful for 25 years, I haven't been exposed to many.

[Ginger1]

I pretty much zero out an dic pics, bathroom or gym selfies. Oh, and the guy who took a pick of butt as his profile pic.

Let me tell you about my last online date. All I have to offer is a laugh unfortunately. His profile said his last R was 10+ years. He asked me about mine on the date, so I asked him about his. Well, that 10+ years was with God he tells me. He just left the priesthood. Then he says to me "you are pretty hot" and I could think is "a priest just told me I am hot.....eeeeewwww!" At the conclusion of the date he tried to shove his tongue down my throat. LORD HELP ME!

They haven't been all bad. I think I only made it to date 4 with one guy, but we all know him as the inappropriate plumber.

I have friends who were very successful with online dating. Went on to marry and have kids.

When I come out of my depression, I plan to maybe give it another shot.

Another suggestion when online dating. You get what you pay for. In my age range, I have realized the free apps have more dic pics and guys looking to get laid.

[Georgiabelle]

Hi 25,

I'm sorry your soon to be x is being an a44hat. You are a funny, kind, smart lady and I have no doubt that things will work themselves out and you will be stronger on the other side. Still, it hurts and it is bizarre being betrayed by someone we thought we would be with until death. It can make one wonder if it was all a façade, but in reality, you know it was real.

I am of a different school of thought than some. I don't necessarily think people "regret" their decisions. They may no like the outcome because it isn't what they wanted. However, I believe people don't make their decisions lightly and it has been well thought out. Regardless of how outlandish it is! I know people who have been married to their affair partners for 10 plus years and have kids with them. Eh, I think sometimes we wish karma would get them (or that they feel repercussions for their actions)but in reality, maybe they don't truly feel the loss because they didn't value what they had? And initially, I think that is what I wanted for my ex. I am so ashamed to admit that. It did not take long for me to realize that is too exhausting for me to concern myself with. I have realized people do what they do. Every thing we ALL do has repercussions (good or bad) and as long as we can live with the consequences or outcome, then that is on us. I wish ex Mr. GB no ill will and hope that he finds peace for himself. Whatever that looks like is on him. I have to focus on my peace:)Sorry, I hijacked.

Can't help with online dating. I only did it for about 3 weeks and I had been eyeing the person I went out with as he worked in my building. However, I think it would be fun if one just relaxes and enjoys themselves. I have known some people to have great success and others have just had fun and used it as one avenue of meeting peeps.

Hope the holiday was nice:)

[25yearsmlc]

not sure why but I am really feeling STUCK.

The Gross divorce crap continues and I feel almost helpless, which we all hate feeling.

Like the other shoe is going to drop. H cancelling out d19's college tuition rings in my head, as does the legal problem we have to deal with in late June (which infuriates me and which I believe h does not know of).

the refusal to pay me support or even the half of the pension he knows & agrees I'm entitled to (is it a game??) and his zero communication about why or what is happening, or when something will be sent,

all make my stomach churn. OH and I need to get a job, too...and be healthy...

Topping it off was that my s30 seems to want me to rush thru all this, and

just be GLAD I'm out of an unloving and that the m "ended long ago" (which hurts and angers and triggers me)

and that I need to address why I didn't see that or why I put up with crap so long, etc.

there are 3 parts of this^^ that strike me.

1) s30 has no idea what unraveling a 35 year marriage & life is like, nor can he really. But I'm positive h and i once had a very strong marriage, - that it was real, for many years...(& yes, rather pathetically I did verify this with others)

and

2) s30 wants to see me happy and at peace, which I get. And appreciate.

and

3) and there is some truth to s30's remark about my need to only look forward, eventually learn to see more upsides to this divorce, and not ruminate at all,

but maybe what troubles me is that s30 saw things I did not see. WTF? I think I'm so self aware...

YES I know I saw things s30 did not, (good and bad) and what happens between a couple who raise children together and build a life from nothing, and from being impoverished, are things no child of theirs can ever really know.

But what about MY blindness? The money maneuvering h has been doing for at least 7 months or longer (gross )

still leave me reeling.

My worst fear is that h will grab onto our retirement savings which I am not old enough to access. And they'll be gone.

I know it's not supposed to happen and yes the divorce filing petition says not to do it

but so what?? I feel like my lawyer (the junior one) is wimpier than I expected or seems powerless. I am loathe to find a new one at this point, but geez...

[DonH]

Online dating? I could not resist throowing in my two cents. I've tried it several times over the years and can only report it went from bad to worse. Perhaps it's me? I swear I've sent at least 50 emails over the time I tried - maybe 75? I rarely even got a response. If I did, I'd find someone claiming they want someone like me - naming interests, politics, age, wants, etc. then I'd get back "I don't think we are a match." I'd be like, huh? How can I fit 10 of the 12 things on your list and not even be worth chatting with? Then to top it off, the few that did message me were so beyond anyone I'd even consider for two seconds. I'd be like, really??? This is what it's come to? Some would message for weeks amd then disappear. I did meet a few but there was just no connection other than one who I would at least have gone out with a second time. She didn't even respond when I texted after the date. So, at least for me it's been worse than real life. I'm dumbfounded how people report long term Rs or even marriage with the first people they met online. Hopefully you'll do better than I have.

[OwnIt]

25--I'm so sorry you are having this moment, but it is inevitable as you work through the stages of grief.

I felt very much the same way and felt so ashamed. My IC kept telling me my H (whom she had met in session) was a narcissist, would never get better, and that I need to cut my losses, get out, and save my children. I was dumbfounded about how I could have missed that for so long. I felt ashamed and humiliated.

Apparently when we love someone we project onto them the qualities we would want them to possess. Children, even adult children, don't do this. They see people for who they are.

After this happened everyone around me came out to tell me how awful he was. Apparently my SIL told my B two years before that something was going on with my H based on his FB posts. No one told me. No one said anything to me.

You saw the man you loved. You did that because your core values tell you to love, be loyal, and to trust. That is nothing to be ashamed of. You saw the good in him because that is the kind of person you are.

Your son just doesn't want you to hurt. He doesn't understand that you have to work through this. He doesn't understand how this destroys your sense of self, your confidence, your belief in others.

You know this will pass. You will get a job. You will get resolution of the divorce. You will hear something. Your life will get better. You know that. Now, how do protect yourself in the meantime?

How do you mourn the man you loved and the life you expected to have? How do you embrace the new life that is waiting for you? I think you will do it with grace and dignity.

[25yearsmlc]

Online dating? I could not resist throowing in my two cents. I've tried it several times over the years and can only report it went from bad to worse. Perhaps it's me? I swear I've sent at least 50 emails over the time I tried - maybe 75? I rarely even got a response. If I did, I'd find someone claiming they want someone like me - naming interests, politics, age, wants, etc. then I'd get back "I don't think we are a match." I'd be like, huh?

well, from my "vast experience" I won't bother responding to a "flirt/wink", but if someone sends a message, AND assuming it's not a weird message, I'll answer.
But I can tell from the photos sometimes, (dark photo that just makes me feel creeped out, or a really goofy or odd expressions, or a guy sitting on a bale of hay with a straw in his mouth like Jethro, etc) that I won't feel any chemistry and I don't care how much we seem to have in common on paper.

How can I fit 10 of the 12 things on your list and not even be worth chatting with? Then to top it off, the few that did message me were so beyond anyone I'd even consider for two seconds. I'd be like, really??? This is what it's come to?

so some women messaged you and you were turned off b/c...? I mean, DonH, isn't that the exact same behavior?


Some would message for weeks amd then disappear.

I know I'm nervous about it so I can see this^^ happening b/c I'm not as ready as I hope. OR as much as I thought I was

and I noticed a few turns off for me too. A man I don't know at all, obviously, told me - without more, that he "wants more photos." (Oh, too bad. I don't owe you any). I never responded to his later messages. I just felt like he would be a jerk. Sometimes if they are super fit and show their body too much, I know it's not going to be pleasant b/c my h was a health nut and I've had enough of that. Constant weight checks and looking at whatever we are eating, etc.



I did meet a few but there was just no connection other than one who I would at least have gone out with a second time. She didn't even respond when I texted after the date.

for some reason DonH, this comes off as a "barely felt enough to have a second date" and I wonder if she got that vibe from you. How open are you to really doing the heavy lifting in a relationship? When you date, are you excited at all?

I'm not saying I am either, at least not yet. Just curious.

So, at least for me it's been worse than real life. I'm dumbfounded how people report long term Rs or even marriage with the first people they met online. Hopefully you'll do better than I have.

my own brother has been married for 15 years and they have a daughter, they met with Eharmony. In fact about 1/2 of my friends in their second marriages met online.

Trust me, I KNOW how crazy it sounds, but it's true.

[25yearsmlc]

Own,

thanks. I joined a DivorceCare group and we met last night. It's so helpful to be in a place where you can mourn or whine or b1tch and not worry that you are dumping too much on friends and family.

So many walking wounded among us.

Amazing. And for the 2nd marriages formed among the healed (not reactive), I commend that.

[DonH]

So, are you active online now? If so, this is sort of what I mean. If you are not yet ready to go out on a date, why have an active OLD profile? Is that not sort of like going into a restaurant, being seating at a table and then saying "oh I'm not ready to order anything today, I just wanted to see what it was like going into a restaurant so when I am ready I'll have checked it out." I felt like the waiter would in that situation. Some people will put "just looking at this point" right in their profile so everyone knew. If not, is it fair to the guys showing interest? Or just wasting time?

As to the woman I would have dated a second time, I think I showed interest - at least some level. I guess I'm just so huge on honesty Again, all she would have had to say was "I enjoyed meeting you but I don't think we are a match." Would that be so hard?

When I say I sent 50 to 75 emails, I mean just that. I rarely if ever just winked. All were at least a few sentences. Most were a few paragraphs. I tried all sort of things - serious, goofy, light, references to things they put in their profiles, referencing their pics, asking questions, all sorts of things. I have heard that women start out responding to everyone, as you suggest you would. They quickly get bad responses as guys don't like to be shot down I guess - still no excuse. But after a few snarky retorts, they simply stop responding at all unless they are interested.

I get I'm not everyone's match - clearly. But 0 for 50? Really? I used to think and am still told I'm reasonably good looking. I had no inappropriate photos, some with friends, one on stage, only one "selfie". I really don't get it.

Then on top of it I'd see some women for a long time. I was on and off and they may have been as well but I'd see them looking for several years or more. Obviously they were not doing any better than I was, yet no response. Oh and yes, I tried a variety of profiles. I'll bet I changed it a half dozen times - again long, short, serious, funny, a combination of all of the above. Same results

For the ones that contacted me that I said were non starters, some were much older, some were wearing clothes from a decade ago, terrible photos like they had just woken up and were very pissed off about it, lol. I don't know how to give an example but they were just not even in the ballpark of possibilities. Thing is, I did usually respond to thank them for their email.

For more "fun" OLD and other dating stories check my thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2729845#Post2729845

I just finally gave up. I'm sure it's something I was doing. How could it not be? I just didn't ever figure out what it was. Perhaps it was the women I was interested in? Perhaps it's my age? I don't know. I rarely went more than 10 years younger so it's not like I was out of my age range. Most were within 5 years of me either way.

I've done better IRL - but not by much. Even there I can't figure it out. It clearly works for some people - just not me. That's why I have titled my thread "this used to be easier and a lot more fun." Because it was. I never had women lining up at my door but used to find it rather easy to date. Since my D and even more so in the last five years it's gone down hill. Finally, about three months ago, I just stopped trying altogether. If I meet someone I meet someone if not at least I'm not being rejected all the time. Same end results but less pain.

[25yearsmlc]

Don,

point taken about why profile? I hid my profile after 4 days b/c it's like a part time job just trying to weed out AND be kind to those who send messages.

Unless the messages are weirdly familiar or bossy or curt (15%?) I answered them. Horrific grammar also rules out some (another 15-20%) so a 1/3 are weeded out just by how they write.

I can't say ^^that's a "great system", but when the numbers are high, you have to come up with something. I ignored most winks and flirts unless I saw a photo of someone hot. And even then, not many.

Most messaging men seem to want to meet soon, whereas I want 2-4 conversations first. THEN I'd want to see if we can have coffee to check chemistry and see where it goes. That was my "plan". Not a dinner first and a public place is needed. Also I KNOW that if I have not slept with a man other than my h, for 36-7 years, I can't just go do it. Mind you, i have a high libido. But it will be SO different (painful?? God I hope not) that I'll have to freak out and I just hope I can hide it.

When I posted there was a deluge of messages repeated, from guys who want to move too fast.

Don, I got scared off. It was not a game. I have the phone number of 3 guys I may call. One in particular seems seriously ready to be IN a relationship and he has a cabin in the mountains ---and I'm already thinking "NO, I want to live overseas, and maybe have a cabin for LATER..."

So in a way I'm talking myself out of things. Like for all I know, he's willing to move or travel, but it's like I'm finding reasons he could not be a mate.

I'll have to think about all that. In real life, yes it's easier b/c I feel more facile with conversations in person. Wit and concern are easier to convey in person.

But I will ponder all this and welcome the OLD stories and advice, which have already helped me. So I think i''l call

Interestingly, I feel like there's a temporary escape when i imagine dating. Like my ego isn't so bruised. Like I CAN recouple someday.
But I'm not sure that^^ is a good reason to date...and I'm not sure it's a bad one.

Thanks

[Ginger1]

Can I make one small suggestion on the online dating thing?

I prefer to meet right away. Why? because yes, this OLD thing is like a part-time job. Messaging then finding out there is nothing there when you meet in person almost seems like a waste of time. So a quick coffee after a few messages is the best way to go. Plus, then you at least have the superficial conversation rather than no conversation if it doesn't go all that well.

I will get a lot of messages. I answer about 1/8. A lot of times the message is 2 words. I don't answer them. he probably sent that to every woman. But the thoughtful ones that sound normal, I answer.

And from what I hear, they say don't put all perfect pictures of yourself up. Not your best angled selfies or the pics you took while at a wedding all dolled up. I add some of those, but they say put some real life, imperfect hair, no make-up stuff. Because that makes you look real and there are no surprises!

[peacetoday]

Hi

I have many friends sho date online
Interesting to hear about and it is like a job,,meeting and getting to know people

I never had the chance to do it as I began a R about 2 years post separation
it just happened..I really tried to resist it but it was very strong
still together 8 years now-he is a good man-very different from my exH
but I am not sure I would marry again or him-
feel like I missed out b/c I jumped in to an exclusive R too soon
take your time-

I didn't read your story but I remember you from long ago
you were one of the lucky ones who reconciled-
sorry it did not work

[Ginger1]

And yes, hope is a good reason to date. As a very wise person told me, life is about possibilities. Possibilities keep us going.

[DonH]

I must totally agree that OLD can be like a part time job! I tired eHarmony like 7 or 8 years ago and by far that really was like a part time job!

So I sent 50 emails with hardly any responses while you and G have so many you can't keep up and need a system to weed through them all. No wonder women don't send much themselves - they don't have to.

Man life is just really not fair! Lol I only wish I had so many to chose from that I could not keep up. Yeah that must really stink! Lol. I really am being good naturedly sarcastic here - well mostly. but C'mon, this is just not fair! .

[25yearsmlc]

well DonH,

you make a good point. The cynic (scaredy cat) in me says guys are more likely to be creepy...

Sexist? I KNOW! (But I'm only sexist when it's convenient so...you know...that's different).

Yes there are a lot of obvious players with the standard inapplicable messages and over the top cliched ones.

A thoughtful message - mostly get a response but as Ginger said, it's easy to get overwhelmed.

Ginger, as for photos, don't we have to crop out a ton if there are other people?

God forbid I put a selfie on, as 90% of the selfies I see make the guys look insane or drunk.

Or it's dark...

OKAY I won't whine anymore since poor DonH got stood up online.

Other than paying something, are there big differences in the programs?

And no, I"m not sure I'm ready. For some reason I set a "one year" timeline on myself back in the fall.
I also always thought it was a in poor taste to date while still legally married.

But now I just have no idea when the D will be final at this rate. Yet here I am taking a dip, sort of.

Sheesh, with H cutting d19 off, who knows when this D process ends?

But I digress.

[DonH]

Stood up? How crazy is it that being stood up might actually be a step up! At least to get stood up I'd have to have heard back from someone and made plans to meet! On the bright side, I've never been stood up. I've met I'd say 10 people in person from online - the majority of which was around 2007 through about 2011. I think my actual on line date was three years ago. I've not been online for at least a year now - might be closer to two. After my 0 for 50 run I pulled the plug and have not gone back.

I did find eHarmeny to take the most time and mist work. However the most serious people were there although at least the Simon I met were hell bent on finding a husband. A friend of mine had tried it so it was my first attempt - I think in 2007. ONTH he is married with three kids. Yes, he met his W on eHarmony.

[JujuB]

25 this is a great topic!

(Soon, I am going to set up an OLD account somewhere as well. So weird to date this way, because they really were just starting, back when I was single)

I have been lurking on a made up account and here are some of the things that bother me from male posters....

1. When they complain about women not matching their photos, or make comments about weight. This is a total turn off and makes me think they are very shallow. I do understand its important not to misrepresent oneself. But at the same time, a guy that complains about it on his profile is a red flag for me. (I would have been annoyed with that request to send more pics as well) Guys (and woman) that complain on their profiles in general are red flags for me. Like if they, "please know the difference between their and there". Ugh. It does not make me think they are smart or funny... Just arrogant. (I recognize I am complaining right now )


2. When they do not have children, yet post pics of themselves with children. Personally, I shudder at the thought of seeing my child's pic on someone's match profile. I am wondering if they actually got permission? It also misrepresents, as I would like to meet a guy that has small children. Not a guy that poses with other peoples kids so that potential dates think he is sensitive, or looking to settle down.

3. When guys post pics with their arms around other women. Come on. Cant they just use another photo? Unless they label it as "me and sister"

4. I like the posts where guys show they are funny with a joke or sarcasm as opposed to just writing down "I am hilarious lol" which seems to be really common. One guy wrote "I look better in person then in pics...at least that's what my mom tells me" and I thought that was really cute.

Any suggestions out there for us females?


P.S. I think a few back and forth exchanges first makes sense if you want to feel safe. But it is easy to develop a sense of intimacy or safety with someone via writing, that does not actually exist.

[25yearsmlc]

Well these are all good points.

Strangely, I swing from one extreme to the other , which may not bode well for how 'ready" I am to date.

This weekend I've holed up with weird deep feelings of rejection. Like HOW can h really want all this wreckage and financial ruin? How can he do this to me/the kids?, etc.

(Actually h probably sees no financial ruin due to his real plans NOT to retire as he says, and the big bucks and yada yada,

but still, this costs us both a fortune. Then again, OW has a "successful business" and I guess makes money and ta dah....all is well.

And h probably sees no damage to his r's with the kids b/c either the damage is already done so H may as well be all happy,

or he can postpone thinking about all that b/c later, "things will work out" when the kids see the riches or that h is SO HAPPY, or they just come around,

or maybe h and others like him just don't go there at all.

ON THE OTHER HAND

I feel like meeting a nice normal guy for a drink (coffee is also possible) and talk, would be lovely (or hilariously boring) but then see where it goes.

Guys, other than the serial killers out there (mostly kidding DonH)

tell me, what I'm really risking - ASSUMING I protect my heart? (Okay you may be asking, "that's nice 25, just 'protect' your heart, yeah, good luck")

But it's kind of Hard to believe I can be deeply hurt again.

Then again, the ego could use a boost, not a bruise.

Dang, it's been a rough year people. I know I do not "need" a man to be complete. I know this.

Frankly, the idea of someone moving in with me now that I'm finally living alone for the first time in my life, is not appealing. Nor is a needy guy who is high maintenance...

I think it's the idea, however premature, of an endless life/future of being the "single aunt, the 'divorced one', that seems dreadfully unappealing. I don't want my kids to worry about me, I want them to see me healed and well and at peace.

I think they want to see me in a R, - (I know at least 2 of the 3 say they want that)

Geez at times this seems like a sh1tstorm & that I'm looking for a rescue.

Other times I feel strong and competent, wounded but a little liberated -

what's up with that?

[180Man]

Hey 25, I just stopped by for a few minutes and was reading the latest from you...

Frankly, the idea of someone moving in with me now that I'm finally living alone for the first time in my life, is not appealing. Nor is a needy guy who is high maintenance...

Pump the brakes 25! Nobody is moving in any time soon!! The time between coffee and moving in is long! As it should be! And you're in control of it! Don't sweat it!

I feel like meeting a nice normal guy for a drink (coffee is also possible) and talk, would be lovely (or hilariously boring) but then see where it goes.

I can confirm, it is lovely to sit with someone of the opposite sex who interests you and have coffee. No pressure, no rush, no expectations...just coffee. And then if you enjoyed it, you go for coffee again. I hope you find somebody who interests you that you might want to do this with!

[25yearsmlc]

Hi 180

my point about someone moving into my place is NOT about dating and then rushing, at all...

it's that I am enjoying living alone. Some LBSers do not. I need to experience the "$uck in this" and I need to grow as only someone can do when they are pushed far out of their comfort zone and into their fears... \

I think I am where I need to be.

I also think dating this quickly is reactive, a desire to fill a void that is partly within me. And for sure the desire to appear to have moved on so my kids worry less about me, even though we all know that dating is not necessarily a sign of moving on anymore than not dating means we are stuck.

Coffee? Oh sure. But a part of me thinks many men I may meet are not up for coffee alone. At least some are in a rush to couple up.

I may look younger but the clock says 57, and most men in my dating range want to either always play the field, or hook up & marry asap.

They don't want to be alone or single for long. I've already had guys from my high school years who want to date.

I know for a fact, since they told me, that two would commit based on the past, not on who I am today, as they are tired (or terrified) of being alone forever. Whereas I have been married longer than single.

So That^^ fear of being alone is what I am veering away from. Make sense?

[Jim1234]

25, if you think you are ready to sit down for coffee, then go for it. If not, take a little longer...... your choice

[Ginger1]

Geez at times this seems like a sh1tstorm & that I'm looking for a rescue.

Other times I feel strong and competent, wounded but a little liberated -

what's up with that?

All I can say is that sums me up pretty well. so I am going to decide that it is completely normal to feel this way.

And it's possible to be in both places at the same time.

[25yearsmlc]

Cadet I started a new thread.

Can you link my old one? Thank you


http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2745850#Post2745850