WW in A; NC achieved(?), Next steps. (2nd thread)

[sandi2]

Seems to me that its just that the place I am at now is "take action". What I am wondering is, how do I take action without "going into specifics" with her. I am NOT looking for another line to be drawn which she can cross

Perhaps we are not understanding what each other is meaning. When you spoke of specifics another time, it was in conjunction with accusations and your coach had warned against it, and I did, too. So are you speaking about confronting her of not honoring the
NC boundary........or, are saying you will take action, but want to tell her the specifics of why you are acting?

I KNOW i am in a tight spot with a woman that cant' be trusted and a bff enabler. Seems like its time for me to enforce my boundary and ask her to move out. To this point, I have still not yet "confronted" her about any of her contacts with OM or indicated I think she has violated them.

This is confusing. You gave her the NC, then she broke it. You said to have a do-over and she broke it again. Are you referring to not having confronted her before, or since, since the do-over? Are you wanting to confront about other things? I am trying to understand your point.

Is there really no utility at this point in saying "I told you I wont continue to live this way... I will not live with this situation/open marriage/lack of respect... I think you should move out of the marital home" and then going full last resort or beyond the last resort technique

.

I think I've already said yes to the last resort. You don't have to be separated to do to the last resort. You know that, right? However, you never tell your spouse you are going to use the last resort. Unless you told her that you will plan to separate, there are a couple of things you could try.

You seem hung up on confrontations. You have already told her you wouldn't continue to live this way, and she never blinked an eye. She continued seeing OM. So you want to repeat it?

I am really sorry because I seem to have ticked you off, and I am just trying to do the best I can.

I am not ticked. I am frustrated. Apparently, we have failed to communicate effectively.

Perhaps it is just that we are talking past each other here-- to reiterate, I am not looking to set additional boundaries or "reiterate" mine or get her to "recommit

Maybe you are right. Then what are you looking for, by having a convo with her?

We had ONE "you must cut contact" convo that included giving up the cheater phone and, yes, she was somewhat surly about it but I thought that was to be expected?

Yes

Now, she's violated the boundary, and pretty clearly so. I am ready to enforce it, and to end the marriage if necessary. I can't go on like this-- it is just too painful. I would just really like to know if you think there is no utility at this point to ENFORCING THE BOUNDARY and, if so, how, if you don't think I should have a conversation about it? I can't have her evicted and I shouldn't, apparently, dump her clothes in the hallway

Look, you said you had a boundary of NC with OM, right? So when you stated that boundary to your W, what was in the back of your head that you would do if she did not honor it? I am asking you what do you see as "enforcing" the boundary. Is it separation?

I was just trying to get some input on how best to say that. The guidance the DB coach and you had given me seemed sound: "dont go into specifics on what you know", just "reiterate that I can't keep going on that way" and that "I think she should move from the marital home since she is not interested in commiting to work on the MR."

Yes, I remember. And as I recall, you had other questions about how to respond to certain scenarios, and I tried to answer them (quite a long post). And then you came back with a post that threw me off balance, and I was re-reading your thread, trying to break through my confusion in the span of time ( the weekends, etc.) After a thread is over a week old, it is helpful to put the date of the month, instead of referring to Monday, last Friday, etc.

I am wondering if you are confused about confrontation and setting boundaries. Maybe it is finally breaking through my skull. You stated your boundary of NC with OM......but you never really confronted her. Is that what's bothering you?

I am NOT interested in getting her to "recommit" right now because clearly she is NOT going to do so, at least not in any sense that includes cutting contact with the OM

What do you want?

I was just looking for a 1) LITTLE guidance on how to deflect her attempts to find out exactly "what I knew" (which you helped with, thanks)

You are welcome.

and 2) to clarify that my endgame here is NOT at this point to seek a recommitment from her but to indicate she should move out.

Okay, I think I am understanding now.

I only asked about additional assurances/restrictions because YOU were indicating that I should be trying to get her to "commit to saving the marriage."

I think you may be referring to the post where I wrote out what you could say if she said such & such, without accusing her of specifics. That's the post I asked if you had read it.

I

really am sorry because it seems I am suffering from a combination of 1) not doing things as best I could have and
2) not communicating on here very well.

That's how I feel about my failure to communicate with you. Sometimes, it just takes another person to say it in a different way, in order to fully get it. It's not just you, either. Occasionally, other posters confuse something I've said. Easy to do in forums, I think.

Maybe when she realizes she is losing me and the boys it will hit home with her how harmful it is what she is doing.

I hope so.

Please accept my apologies because I really appreciate your help and the time you put in on this site.

No apologies necessary. If my words have an angry tone, it is not my intentions.

The first time I read this post, it made no sense to me. I guess you haven't been able to follow what I mean, either.

I've just gone over this response to check for typos, when it dawned on me what you are saying about having a convo and addressing the specifics. At least, I think it did. Makes me want to delete this post and start over......but it's too long.

[hoosjim]

Thanks again, Sandi. I know you help many, many people here, so I don't want to monopolize you. Let me try to summarize where i THINK i am:

1) Late April/ Early May, we have 2 or three maybe talks mostly related to the "cheater phone" she has as well as the increasing realization that she is back in touch with the OM. I tell her I do not want an open marriage and will not share her and tell her I am not going to cohabitate with someone who is seeing another man and that we need to reach some sort of resolution. She interprets this as me saying I need her to give me a "thumbs up or thumbs down" on US, which she interprets as "pressure". The talks are, admittedly, a little muddled and we DO talk about the OM, which irritates her. This is followed by:

1) 5/5. I clarify with her that I am not demanding a yes/no on reconcilliation with us, but I DO need an answer, right away, on contact with the OM, and I set a firm boundary of NC with the OM on 5/5. She agreed, though she was a little word-gamy and reluctant, IMO ("I will not go to the bar, I am getting rid of the cheater phone, I will not seek anything out with him") Me: "I am not sure I heard you right... are you saying "you will not have any contact and will avoid any contact he tries to initiate" HEr: "Yes." She was also clearly resentful about it and immediately took to sleeping in guest room for about a week. She does get rid of the cheater phone (which had been provided by the bff).

2) 5/7 and 5/9, I think, she makes "drive bys" on the OM's bar, but otherwise seems to be keeping to "no contact". She is sullen and sulky.

3) 5/12-- The infamous "dinner and drinks" with her and BFF where all three of us had too much to drink, bff pushed my buttons ("you don't trust me, you think Im a bad influence, etc etc") So I confront her: "I know what's going on [no specifics] and I know it seems to happen an awful lot when you are involved" and some other stuff, but that is the most important for these purposes. I didn't make any reference to the drive-bys or insinuate I knew of anything since "no contact"-- remember we are only a week into NC at this point. Later that night, I pass out and get sick, my W calls BFF for help ("I feel trapped", supposedly) and bff gets her an uber to the OM's bar where she also hangs out. They stay till close, and at some point my W ends up at OMs house for an hour and doesn't come home until 5AM. (Incidentally I had feared this possibility-- OM is divorced but has teenage children in his custody who are in the dark about the A-- with good reason they go to school with my kids. I knew they would be out of town visiting their Mom on Mothers Day. Oh well, I shouldn't have gotten drunk.)

4) W hungover most of Saturday. Goes to meet BFF for "mothers day date" where they have dinner (check) and go to hotel to spend night together (check also). She could easily have hooked up with OM somehow after going to hotel but I have no way of knowing one way or the other. She DID go out dressed to kill.

5) 5/15-- W plays hookie from work (kind of, she had some comp time), goes to meet OM for an hour or so before all the rest of us get home from work/school.

6)5/15 (PM) She and I talk about the weekend. I apologize for being drunk Friday (I had not reviewed my surveillance for Monday at this point), tell her "I know you went back out after I passed out and didn't come back until 5 AM" (She had previously told me she just went out to retrieve the car-- BFF confirmed with me that W had come to the bar, and I heard W come in at 5 AM.) I knew she had gone to OM's house but did not confront her with this nor did I tell her I knew whether or not OM had been at the bar nor that I knew about Monday meeting. We agreed we needed a "do over" on the evening and talked about "what we were doing". It was a long talk and we agreed to have MR talks at least twice a week. I said that I was not going to micro-manage her but that I expected her to still respect my limits on contacting OM and she said she would "keep doing so."

7) 5/19-- After we have our first session with counselor (where the A does not come up--its mostly introductory) She heads out of town for "girls weekend" she'd had previously planned including bff. Stops for 3 and a half hour meeting at different bar (and, for part of time bff but at some point they split up) with OM. They had been planning at meeting at an even more distant bar but changed at last minute. she travel on to spend night with bff

8) 5/20-- she is to go to concert this day with bff and other friend. In middle of morning, and after already having had breakfast with girlfriends, she drives 45 minutes north (back toward OM's locale) to a Breakfast diner where she spends nearly an hour, and then drives back. She told me all about her weekend, including meals, and didnt mention this one. I assume it was a meet up with OM but cannot verify for certain.

9) She returns home on 5/21, and very surprisingly does not do any detours to check in with OM, though she has plenty of opportunity. He could've just been busy and she HAD just gotten two "fixes."

Other color: She has a couple of times indicated to bff or another friend that she "thinks about trying to come back to me" or "thinks she would try to work things out" but then gets home an thinks... "no". FWIW, bff told me "she wants to come back to you" but also "you might have to let her go" and "I advised her against starting this A" (possible, I suppose, but she is certainly currently enabling.) She had also brought up counselling a couple of times and my response had been to put it off based 1) on my (mistaken) understanding that she had wanted to do individual counselling first and 2) that with the OM in the picture (and I had told her this once before) I didn't see the point in counselling. MY best friend thinks I should be jumping at the chance. The marriage counsellor, with whom I had had a solo session, thinks I should have confronted her more fully about the affair earlier, but thinks getting us both into counselling now could actually be productive and break her out of the affair if W gets a "neutral" perspective on it. W seems to like/trust the MC at first glance, but W is also EXTREMELY revisionist at this point about our MR and history, and VERY distant towards me (which my best friend and my wife's bff attribute to me previously having been "controlling"-- which is code for trying to get her to stop seeing the OM)

My stance on all of this: she cant be trusted and has clearly violated the NC agreement she gave me as well as my boundary. I am not looking for a "recommitment" though I would somewhat expect her to offer one "This time it will be different" or else for her to fly off the handle "have you been monitoring me? I thought you would trust me?" Either way, I think I need to just tell her "this isn't working, you need to move out." My only hesitancy comes from this MC we have started. She actually called me today and discussed it and seemed interested/engaged by it. OTOH, there is, in my mind, little reason to pursue it if OM is still int he picture, although this counselor seems to think she can talk sense to my W. I am inclined, however, to put it all on hold. Maybe the loss/shock will eventually bring her to her senses. I don't think she believes I will dump her. In fact I know she doesn't

[sandi2]

Thanks for writing all that out again.

She actually called me today and discussed it and seemed interested/engaged by it. OTOH, there is, in my mind, little reason to pursue it if OM is still int he picture, although this counselor seems to think she can talk sense to my W

.

When you say "she called", you are referring to your W, right?

Okay, think of the alternatives. If you called for a separation, would it bother you that you did not go to the MC to see if there was something she could have done to reach your W? What was your opinion of the MC? Did the MC talk to you alone, and give some type of outline as to how she works with couples in this type of situation?

Before you decide about going to more sessions with this MC, I encourage you to please call your DB Coach. Not to get his advice on seeing the MC, but to hear his recommendations regarding your W still seeing the OM.

If your gut is telling you to try this MC as some type of last resort, then go for it. However, let me just warn you that some WW's have been known to use the MC's sessions as a way of announcing to her family/friends that she's tried everything.......even counseling......and it did not help. Or, she may announce to the MC and you that she wants a divorce. IDK what she'll do, I'm just saying this has been reported from LBH'S.

I do find it odd that your W is interested in going to the MC. The WW is motivated by selfishness, so that makes me wonder. I am curious as to what the MC has in store and why she feels she can talk sense into your W.

Listen to your coach, and make a decision about the MC before doing anything else, okay? Once you make that decision there, then you can plan what to do next. Otherwise, I could see you being overwhelmed and feeling very hopeless.

Let me remind you of something, and I hope it won't confuse you. As I originally stated, when a boundary has been stated......and it has not been honored, then there should be some type of action taken by the H. In looking specifically at what you've said to your W about the NC........you did not state to her any particular outcome, other than that you could not continue going with how things are. Is that correct? So, you've never threatened to S/D? If you did not make a verbal remark about what you would do if she did not respect your NC boundary............then you can hold back a few days from jumping into the talk about separating.........don't you agree?

Just having the mental/emotional attitude that you are prepared to end the M, if she continues contacting OM.........should reflect to her the message of how serious you are about her behavior. As to her knowledge, she is not aware that you know that she has broken the boundary again, right? So, that buys you a little time to check out what your coach has to say..........and decide about the MC.

After seeing the wide-screen version of your situation, it makes better sense.

[hoosjim]

When you say "she called", you are referring to your W, right?

.

Yes. And not just to talk in generalities about the MC or the process. We had filled out a questionnaire/assessment and she was very interested in it and open and chatty about how she had answered the questions and how some of them were hard and others made her think this or that, etc., etc. Now, I should say that as of this first preliminary session we have not said word one about the "A", but did talk some about my wife's feelings of neglect. (This counselor told me individually that she DOES like to get the A out there in the open by the second session, and that there HAS to be some guilt/remorse).

What was your opinion of the MC? Did the MC talk to you alone, and give some type of outline as to how she works with couples in this type of situation?

I like this MC very much. She is VERY pro-marriage, and also an intimacy and sex-therapist. (And Christian-oriented, if you can believe that.) I have consulted with her individually twice. W knows this, though not exactly what we discussed. The MC was completely on board with my sentiment to confront wife about the A and OM and comfortable with my stance that "I would not share" my W. She (MC) is of the opinion that these types of A's don't typically end until someone puts their foot down or confronts the W or there is some other kind of wake-up call. The MC's approach in general appears consistent with what MWD counsels-- pro-marriage, goals oriented, etc. She does a combination of individual and couples therapy as she deems appropriate.

Before you decide about going to more sessions with this MC, I encourage you to please call your DB Coach. Not to get his advice on seeing the MC, but to hear his recommendations regarding your W still seeing the OM.

Just did this this morning...

...Conclusion was that there WERE some encouraging things in what my W had said about the counselling, that here willingness to do it for three months (or so it appears currently) was encouraging (she cited some other counselor who specializes in infidelity on this point), and that it was at least worth going to the intensive session (4 separate sessions) on 6/2 to see what comes out of it. WRT the NC agreement and my W's violation of it, the coach's advice was, especially since my W "does not know I know", to sit on it until after 6/2 to see what comes out of that. I always have that in my back pocket and available to me if things get too hard. Coach also advised (which makes sense) to maybe back off on the monitoring (though I have NOT been non-stop about it as it is) to improve my frame of mind going into the sessions, even to the point of just "letting her go out without objection or looking angry or upset" if she wants to out with BFF in the interim. Basically advised to put me desire to defend the boundary on hold until after 6/2. Also advised (which is consistent with what she had said previously and what you and others had said) to avoid, if it came to that either in counselling or elsewhere, specifying exactly what I know (except the stuff W knows I know) and how I know it, as me monitoring (or "spying" as she would see it) on her at this point would only damage the relationship.

However, let me just warn you that some WW's have been known to use the MC's sessions as a way of announcing to her family/friends that she's tried everything.......even counseling......and it did not help.

.

Yes, I fear this too. Especially since, during our "No Contact" talk on 5/5, we discussed counselling and I professed a desire to wait a bit since she had just "cut contact" (her body language was definitely on the defiant/defensive side that evening) and that i didn't want to do it as a "box checking" exercise, to which she replied she didn't see ANY problem with doing it as a "box checking" exercise since "we would want to know we tried doing everything we could." I also fear it because I know she desperately fears losing/alienating our boys, to the extent that she has maniacally guarded her secrecy in this affair. (I still don't know how she plans on gaming this-- a blind mule, let alone my borderline genius son, would be able to see what happened here if she ultimately gets together with OM, my former friend and family friend with whom I "suddenly" had a falling out just at the time our marital difficulties started. She would have to wait a VERY long time before going public with it... and in fact she stated so to the OM on the initial phoncon I overheard back in January). Because of this, she is desperate that the break up be "just about us" and that we "present a united front" to the kids. A completed course of MC would obviously help her in this regard. Still... she seems genuinely interested. At least a little bit but certainly more than I would have expected.

In looking specifically at what you've said to your W about the NC........you did not state to her any particular outcome, other than that you could not continue going with how things are. Is that correct? So, you've never threatened to S/D?

.

Welll... I never threatened to S/D per se. However, in the 5/5 convo, I said something to the effect of "if this (NC) is not something that you can commit to or honor, I think we need to start the process of going our separate ways." (not verbatim, though I did definitely say "separate ways.")

As to her knowledge, she is not aware that you know that she has broken the boundary again, right? So, that buys you a little time to check out what your coach has to say..........and decide about the MC.

.

She doesn't know I know, but she knows I suspect about the ONE instance (seeing the OM at the bar Friday night 5/12). I did not confront her on that or push the issue and, of course, it is POSSIBLE that OM was not there. Unlikely, but possible. Sadly, her going to his house for an hour later that night/early-morning from about 3:30 to 4:30 AM removes any doubt that she DID see him that night, WON he was at the bar. But she does NOT know I know she went to the house.

While so much of her fits the WW profile, there are little bits and pieces here and there that make me think that (to quote Luke Skywalker) "there is still good in her". Nonetheless, I would tend to think that a dose of reality wouldn't hurt to help jar that into motion. (although the last "dose of reality" resulted in a major pull-back and amp up in frigidity from her.)

[sandi2]

(This counselor told me individually that she DOES like to get the A out there in the open by the second session, and that there HAS to be some guilt/remorse).

She has to feel guilt/remorse during the session or in order for the relationship to work successfully?

I am really glad you called your DB coach. I think he's right about not monitoring her so closely. Once you have intel that lets you know she is cheating, I just don't see how it could be mentally healthy to look at it all the time. Besides, the WW will try to trip you up on the specifics, if you allow it. Cheating is cheating, whether you do it one time, or several times a day.

Since describing the MC, I have a better feeling about her...FWIW.
If you have already invested time in her and you really like what you know so far, then I wouldn't look for "another" MC. However, brace yourself if WW doesn't like her by the second session. Hopefully, the MC can work wonders. And I mean it, I really hope she can.

While so much of her fits the WW profile, there are little bits and pieces here and there that make me think that (to quote Luke Skywalker) "there is still good in her".

I don't think you can look at her as having a bit of good or bad. Currently, her emotions are in charge and dictating to her all the reasons that justify this affair. Does that make it right? Of course not! She is in a bad place. Her behavior is bad. Her decisions are bad. However, I know it's possible to change what she presently feels, and work her way back to being her true self......instead of what you see now.

[hoosjim]

I think he's right about not monitoring her so closely. Once you have intel that lets you know she is cheating, I just don't see how it could be mentally healthy to look at it all the time.

Yes, you are right. It is very hard to maintain a good frame of mind for YOURSELF and to stay grounded when you are basically constantly having to relive the revelation of the affair over and over and over. I try not to do it all the time but just in situations that are suspicious. Even that is very rough on the psyche.

She has to feel guilt/remorse during the session or in order for the relationship to work successfully?

She has to feel guilt ultimately in order for the relationship to work successfully (and to help restore trust and start the healing), but also sounds like, in a more limited sense, for the sessions to be "productive" at the end of the day, whether that remorse comes immediately or comes later. (Honestly, while it would cause some hurt, there is part of me that almost wishes-- ALMOST wishes mind you-- that one of the boys would stumble across one of the bits of affair evidence that she is SO careless about, because that would CERTAINLY be a wake-up call for her. I am not going to be the one to inflict that pain, however.)

However, I know it's possible to change what she presently feels, and work her way back to being her true self......instead of what you see now.

I hope so. I still love her, damn me for a fool.

[hoosjim]

Dangit. I just don't know if I can do this. "This" meaning 1) hold on for another 8-9 days knowing what is going on under my nose with the A despite my WW's promise to "no contact" and 2) Going into MC, despite my confidence and trust in the counselor, knowing that my W is in such a mindset that she is almost certain to lie to the counselor, saying she (my W) is honoring the "NC" promise/boundary, that the "A" is over, and that it is "not serious." I feel like participating in that charade will either make it harder for me to put my foot down later (remember I KNOW what's going on even though my W does not "know I know" and/or "force" me (or lead me, whichever) to reveal the "truth" of the affair (not the grim details, but just that I know that it is continuing an know it is more serious/sexual/intimate than W admits). Also feel like with my wife's current mindset, the MC is not likely to be effective no matter how good at her trade and, finally, that, if I reveal the "truth", either in the counselling sessions or to W afterward, that that will "burn" that MC for us as W will be to mortified and/or defensive to return.

Cause of all this internal angst is continued and heavy FB messaging between W and OM today. And, yes, I know I am supposed to be detaching and trying "not to look" and trying to hold off a week just to see what the first round of MC (four sessions same day) brings but, CRAP! Seems like it is all setting up just to be kabuki to provide W with some cover. Can someone talk me off the ledge here. The long weekend is only going to be tougher as i am sure she will find some way over three days to slip off with the OM.

Maybe i should just go with my gut from a few weeks back, find him, and kick the S**t out of him...

[LH19]

Jim,

You set a boundary of NC and transparency that your wife has broken multiple times correct?

Your in MC when your wife is in an active affair which everyone pretty much agrees is a waste of time and money.

IMO you have no choice but to enforce your boundary.

[hoosjim]

LH19,

Its complicated. Read my history, above. Think we were headed for possibly successful "NC" until we had a pretty disastrous weekend. W does not "know I that I know", yet, so not like she thinks I am being weak or indecisive. She has actually been VERY discrete and sneaky... it's just that I'm pretty smart at finding things out. So, the DB coach's advice was to wait until we had these sessions next Friday because there were some "positive signs" that W was interested in the process and possibly in actually exploring reconcilliation and see if it looked like there was actually any "opening" so to speak to move things forward. The MC we are using seems pretty confident she can help get my W to listen to reason. (Although even she was curious why I hadn't full confronted her with what I knew and has said that usually these don't end until someone "puts their foot down.") Problem is, as soon as I "put my foot down" here, she is pretty certain to know I have been monitoring (i.e. "spying on") her, and this in and of itself might scotch any chance we have of reconcilliation. Many, many moons ago when we were first dating and broke up I briefly went a bit "stalker" on her (nothing serious, but was spying on her some) and that has stuck in her mind all this time. Says she feels like she is constantly "looking over her shoulder". And, yes, I know, I know-- if she weren't engaging in an affair she wouldn't have to be "looking over her shoulder" at all.

My plan, based on discussions with my DB coach, with a friend, and on Sandi2s posts indicating that if the W "doesn't know that I know" that I could maybe hold off a few days just to see if the MC provided any breakthroughs, was to hold off, see how the MC went, and then, if there was dishonesty or any game playing by the W to either use the MC as a platform to say "I don't think this can work out under the current circumstances) or else to drop the hammer sometime shortly thereafter.

Now, however, I am wondering if it might not be advisable to, fairly soon and especially if she tries to slip away with OM or to go out with her bff (which lately has been code for "going to see the OM") say "look, I gave you my boundary, and I can't go on living this way with you, including pretending that we are going to try to work on the MR through counselling, under the current circumstances" and indicate I think she should move out of the marital home. Maybe leave open the possibility of going to the first counselling sessions to work things out, but... Idunno. Definitely cant trust her, and as soon as I drop that bomb I am sure she will go so deeply underground that I wont be able to monitor her at all.

[hoosjim]

So this must be the waywad rebellious mindset. 6 o'clock so I call W at work because I want to make dinner (she's usually home by 6). No answer. Call her cell. She answers "I'm having a meeting with ______ and ________, go ahead and start dinner." I make dinner. We wait a bit. And a bit more. I don't call because I dint want to be clingy. We eat. We clean up. 7:40. I call her. "I'm leaving now"h (no apology) TEN minutes later, (751) she calls. "Hello" i say. First thing she says: "You're irritated with me, I can hear it in your voice." (Still no apology) (And I didnt sound at all irritated, and said that I wasnt. Then, her: "Well, I'm on hov, I should be home pretty quick." No explanation, no apology. The boys had just left for a HS ball game. I grabbed my bag and headed to the gym. Leave her the empty house. I've had it. Just... had it. Supposedly she wants to "explore working on the marriage". Ummm, yeah, right...