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Originally Posted By: hoosjim
Thanks, Sandi. Now, the only question is: Is she still seeing the guy. We had a talk on Monday, as I posted earlier. Recommitted to the no contact... I had not pinned her down on whether or not she had seen him though I know she had. We also agreed to try counselling. Yes, I know, that is supposed to be premature until after NC and after the grieving period and true remorse.


First, boundaries are about future contact, "from this day forward" so are you trying to set her up and test her or what? I mean, either enforce the NC rule now going forward or tell her she already broke it...what's with the trapping?

Second, I don't know about how all "that is supposed" to go with such hard fast rules. "premature...until after Grieving and true remorse"...What?

the "true remorse" - meaning, wherein she realizes the depth of your pain??

Um, that may not ever really come, b/c remember, she felt years of rejection from you so her pain is what consumed her for a long time...

I think we cannot get in their heads and hearts and demand they think or feel something, as "conditions precedent" to forward movement ...all we can do is express and enforce our boundaries and needs clearly, and do our own work.

-

I intend to keep the DB going, however, and to continue "data collecting." If I find evidence she is still seeing the guy (and I somewhat strongly suspect she is and has just gone DEEP underground) my intent/plan is still to pull the plug and say "no more counselling, no more cohabitating" as long as you are seeing him.


hasn't this^^ already been said? Isn't that what just happened?


OTOH, next counselling is in 2 weeks, where we are to have several sessions in one day (both individual and together). Counselor thinks she can help end it, but... Idunno. The W could just as easily say "okay, im ending it" and then not do so. Anybody think I need to give it the two weeks and see what the counselling brings, regardless? I am of the opinion I need to stick to my guns on this, if it turns out she is still seeing him.



So The only issue to you is whether you need to enforce the last boundary or this one?

Does it matter? I mean, you have to enforce something or it'll keep happening.

And that's no boundary at all.


*make sure you are also clear that marriage to you would be better/different than before, b/c as you recall, she had legit issues and unmet needs for a long time.

I am not defending her A but definitely want you to recall how this all originate and not to lose sight of your overall goals.

If the only thing you focus on is her A, you won't grow from this ordeal. And then you're not getting your "money's worth" from this pain.

make sense?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
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H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
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X = "ALASKA 2.0"
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I am getting confused about the days you reference in your post. The last time I posted, I was trying to address your concerns about what your coach said about approaching your W with percise accusations.......and you were so anxious to address her........and you were asking me a lot of questions. I don't if you even read my response, b/c you come back talking about her re-committing to NC Monday. Okay, so why were you getting so anxious about what to say if she says such & such.......and about accusations, etc. You've got my head spinning!

Btw, let me back up or try to clarify seeing a MC with a WW, b/c sometimes I fail to give an explanation. As long as she is still in contact with the OM, it is my opinion that marriage counseling will not be successful (based on all that consumes a wayward). If she ends the affair and all types of contact with OM, then I think MC may have a little shot. If she stops having secret messaging with other new so-called male "friends", stops acting like a girl gone wild, and cooperates with her H in some form of transparency, I think MC has a better shot. If she has come through the withdrawals (at least the first hardest weeks), there's a greater chance at MC succeeding. Feeling remorseful, IMHO, helps her considerably, b/c her heart won't be quite as contrary and hardened against her H. There will still be tons of work to do, but once she feels remorseful.....she usually is a bit more humble about facing her areas of failure in the M. Do you see what I mean? It is hard to counsel a couple when one of them doesn't want to think about giving their MR another chance.


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I'm very confused about what "NC" requirement was agreed to and when and how it was defined, etc.

Also not sure what MC is doing, though you say you like this one.

I mostly agree with Sandi but am unclear on one thing. I am not sure how far you will get expecting your w to feel remorse when she probably does not yet.

I think She felt justified in having the A b/c of the intimacy issues you have long admitted (and which I admire you for admitting & working on, btw).

I guess I don't get why your w would suddenly feel such a fast & seismic change of heart towards the m, when you more or less said you had both checked out of it.

That's a pretty spectacular transformation to expect and require.

Can you elaborate on this?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Sandi, thanks for checking in.

I did read your response to me, and took yours (and others') advice to not act in the heat of the moment. I am still very hurt/upset/angry etc. about my W's breaking of the no contact last weekend. Given what I knew, I was (and am still) ready to "call her on it" but in the more measured tone you and my DB coach suggested. BUT... last weekend was complicated. And ugly. The night out where we were all drinking started out well, and was only when I and the BFF became somewhat intoxicated that things went south. Alot was said, then, I coming off as not level-headed at all (which I am sure was relayed to my W), and then W had to take me home early from the bar, I passed out and got sick. While this is and never has been a pattern with me, there are a couple of very painful/sad memories for her of when we were much younger where I had too much and acted poorly toward her in what should have been happy situations (once when she threw a birthday party for me on my 30th) and she has brought those memories up in our recent discussions as being particularly hard for her. While I was never an alcoholic or abusive (As that term is commonly used) or anything like that, i DID recognize that that lifestyle and heavy drinking was not a great idea and so I distanced myself far far away from that for many years. Only recently have I dipped my toe back into "going out" on the bar scene, somewhat because this is something she is doing and seems to enjoy so much. At any rate, I clearly was over the line last weekend and pushed her buttons. Not that that excused her going to the OM's bar, seeing him, and then going by his house for an hour later, BUT... I kind of feel like I'd like to give her another chance, especially after we talked on Monday (after she had gone out to meet with him again during the day) and talked about having a "do-over". I did not, on Monday, tell her what I knew about seeing the OM on
Friday and Monday, only that I knew (which was common knowledge by all at this point) that she had gone to that bar on Friday after I passed out and had not come back in until 5AM. (BFF says they were getting breakfast at diner, which is possible, but I know for a fact she went by OM's house before coming home.) I do not know what is going on NOW, this week, with her. She has had a couple of opportunities to see the OM, situations that look a little suspicious, and it is possible that she is on to my sometimes tracking and is working around it, because I have not been able to discern. It is also obviously possible that they are contacting each other by phone somehow or at her workplace phone. If I find out or get confirmation that she is still seeing him (and maybe even if the suspicious opportunities persist-- I have to decide what I can "live with") I will confront her as we have discussed and as my coach (and you) have advised.

As to the counselling, that, too, is complicated. This counselor seems to think she can "bring spouses in affairs back to the marriage"--- she uses individual as well as couples therapy and wants to meet alone with my W... no word yet on whether or not W will agree. We are to start "intensive" sessions (four in one day... some individual some joint) in two weeks. I would assume that the individual counselling might be effective in this regard(?) but I do not know. MLC and one or two others on this board, as well as my best friend (who seems to think I would be crazy to not accept my W's willingness to enter counselling-- but who also is still convinced that the A is not really an "A"-- he is my W's BFF's soon to be ex husband, remember and "trusts" her) who think counselling wouldn't hurt. I will note that I have heard my W telling her friend on two occasions "Some days I really feel like I want to try to work it out but then I get doubts or get home and think 'no'."(this is to the BFF who knows about the A). FWIW, BFF also told me, before our convo turned ugly on Friday that "she wants to try to find a way back to you" but also that "you may have to let her go." I also have it secondhand from another friend that W was irritated at me that she earlier voiced, as she thought, a willingness to go to therapy but I opined that either she was "too broken" or not ready. Not sure I ever said anything like that other than that I didn't see the point while the OM was in the picture. Anyway, that's where we are with therapy. If I get any kind of indication/proof she is still contacting OM, I am going to pull the plug on that, though, and put everything on hold. I may still do it anyway. I am going to give it a couple of days, see what our talks bring. But the regular going out with the girls over the past couple of weeks is not something I am sure I can live with under the current state of "trust".


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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Okay. The post you previously sent, just had me really confused. When a H starts sounding as if he's about to make a sudden decision out of his emotional state, which would basically be a very bad move (b/c he is not well grounded in DB).......then I am typing my fingers to the bone trying to help by answering the questions he has just asked. So does this mean I need not worry that you are going to charge at her like an angry bull?

FWIW, I have seen situations where there were too many sources of advice. All forums, posters, counselors, marriage books, marriage coaches, family and friends are not going to give the same advice. How does a person decide who has the best advice? Do you cherry pick the advice you like? Some people can be left feeling very confused and emotionally drained with so many different sources of advice. I certainly don't blame anyone for seeking the best help possible, I'm just not sure how you would know which advice to apply. After all, some good advice is often not what we want to hear.

Well, I hope you can keep a level head about you. I encourage you to stay away from the bar scenes, since drinking has a bad affect on you.


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hoosjim Offline OP
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I am not going to charge at her like an angry bull. I can do this calmly and confidently.

I definitely hear you on the "too many voices." I find yours and other's writings on the WW dynamic VERY compelling... and I am almost positive that is what I have here with my W. She definitely is falling into that trap of "the OM is my soulmate" (planning or at least talking of a future together, etc) and the more entwined she comes with him the more distant/dismissive of me she is. The "best" we were post BD was the three or four weeks she distanced herself from him. As soon as she resumed regular contact, its been all downhill for us. OTOH, there are other voices which make "sense" to me as well, some of which are faith-related, that urge more restraing: be loving, dont be controlling, she wants to come back to you and will if you give her time/space. There is a part of me that kind of thinks God wants to make this as tough a situation as he can and then show what he can do by resurrecting our MR. There have been alot of strange signs and synergies that I may or may not have gone in to here in the past. Problem is, while I am a man of faith, I cannot rightly discern here if God would want me to "put her out", or if he would want me stand pat and wait.

On balance, the "tough love" approach toward WWs seems to make the most sense, but... Starting down that road for me DEFINITELY turned up the frigidity dial on my W. I understand that that can be expected but, still not easy to experience.

Then there is the counselling angle. I am right there with you (as I am on the general principle of co-habitating with an unrepentant WW) that a strong, confident man would not generally consent to pretend to work on the marriage via counselling, potentially offering the WW an easy "out", while the A is still ongoing, and that pursuing such counselling is likely to provide little if any benefit. Still, my W has indicated once or twice a desire, somewhere, to "find her way back" (though, Friday, at our first preliminary session she did say "Ive known its completely over for a long time now"-- which is significantly different than what she told both me AND the OM in January when she said she was only "80% sure it was over"-- IOW her revisionism is getting more pronounced.) At any rate, I cant help wondering if a good individual counselor could convince her of the error of her cheating ways and/or convince her to cut contact. I mostly think it would be best to force the issue myself "Im not going to continue counselling under these circumstances,.." but... what if this counselor is as good as I think she might be? What if I was (as I kind of believe) led to her through divine intervention. Would I be jumping the gun? Of course, even if there is a divine hand here it work, it could just as easily be my role to play in it to take a stand on my no contact boundary before proceeding. Tough. Too many voices. At the end of the day, though, I think it is going to be necessary for me to take action on the boundary violation. Intel from the past weekend is starting to point in the direction that she saw OM once and possible twice more. frown


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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Well, she definitely (okay, say 95% chance) saw the OM Friday night on way out of town when she was supposed to be with BFF. Not sure what they did but they met at a bar and there are three and a half unaccounted for hours. There was also a side-trip Saturday, unaccounted for by her (I talked to her casually about her weekend with girlfriends) which could pretty much only have been to meet him for breakfast on Saturday. Also have pretty hard confirmation now that the BFF is enabling and being a liaison.

I am done with this. Not spitting angry because I anticipated it and was already pretty sure it was happening, but I think something definitely needs to change unless I am going to assume her heart will soften towards me eventually and try to just "ride it out". Sandi, all of your advice, as well as DB coach, on confronting her, remaining calm, not going into specifics about the A, etc., seems sound.

My one question is this: What if she says "yes, of course I will commit to saving the MR, that is why I agreed to try counselling" or something of the sort (although her stance at the first session was that she thinks its pretty much over and has for a while and is doing this, MC, to "find out if there is any way she would WANT to try to save the MR")...and then just continues seeing the OM, undoubtedly even deeper underground now since she will be effectively tipped to my surveillance? She has promised me now twice that there would be "NC" most recently a week ago tomorrow. There was definite contact twice last weekend (Mothers day weekend) which I didn't call her on and which she does not know I know for sure about (though she knows I suspect as I know she went to the OM's hangout with BFF). There have now been two "dates" THIS weekend, which occurred after her most recent reiteration of her promise. Doesnt seem she can be trusted at this point. She can say she is committed to going through the counselling but... she said that before and said she would commit to no contact and has continued to date the guy. At this point shouldn't I either be a) demanding some sort of additional transparency (which wont work if she is really determined) and restrictions (no overnighters, no going out with BFF) which, as MLC notes, will undoubtedly result in resentment or evasion or both OR b) just saying "its clear this is not going to work out, I dont know if I can trust you any longer and I think you should leave the marital home."

The whole narrative/dialogue you propose makes perfect sense, and I am right there until the end. At that point, I am uncertain how, as you suggest, getting her to "commit to saving the marriage" is all that helpful at this point as an "endgame". She already has kind of promised to do that, at least in the respect of no contact, seeking counselling, and regular talks between us to try to work out or problems... and yet she has continued to see the OM.

Thanks as always for all your help.!


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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Quote:
My one question is this: What if she says "yes, of course I will commit to saving the MR, that is why I agreed to try counselling"

Doesnt seem she can be trusted at this point. She can say she is committed to going through the counselling but... she said that before and said she would commit to no contact and has continued to date the guy


I'm not going down that road again about what if she says--- you say. Besides, you've answered your own question. At this point, she cannot be trusted.

Quote:
At this point shouldn't I either be a) demanding some sort of additional transparency (which wont work if she is really determined) and restrictions (no overnighters, no going out with BFF) which, as MLC notes, will undoubtedly result in resentment or evasion or both OR b) just saying "its clear this is not going to work out, I dont know if I can trust you any longer and I think you should leave the marital home."


Well, she's not a teenager, so I doubt grounding her will have much effect.

Let me explain how this looks to me. First, you were busting a gut to confront her. Then you heard about boundaries and couldn't wait to "use" it on your WW. When she would not actually come out and say she would no longer contact OM, you tried to put the words in her mouth......or as you said, "wring it out of her".

Then, (if I have the story correct) you were hot to confront her again. You were advised to calm down, and not jump into the deep water before you knew how to swim. The place you currently find yourself comes about when the H does not have a clue to what he's doing.......and pretty much makes a mess out of the confrontation. You grabbing bits & parts from various sources and nothing is working. You want the magic dialog that will snap her out of waywardness and make her commit to the MR.

I see the H as having one good chance with the confrontation speech about NC, transparency, & commitment. (That's why he needs to know his stuff before opening his mouth). If he goofs the first time, then in some situations he might make the second one more convincing......but after that, he may as well shut up, for all the good it's doing. When she does not follow through with what you presented in the confrontation, what will you do? Have another one?

In your case, I really don't see any more confrontations succeeding, at this time. She did not honor your NC with OM boundary, and somewhere in there you said something about transparency to her..........so are you going to draw another line in the sand and dare her to cross it again? Are you going to demand that she commits to the M? Frankly, at this point......she is not listening. You could make all the demands you want, but as long as she can slip around with OM.....she will not heed your demands.

IMHO, when the WW has a close enabler, and she is drinking and staying out all night, spending weekends away from home, etc............it is more difficult for her nice-guy H to get very far on words alone. Now I don't know exactly everything that has been said, but according to you, there have been two times that she agreed to NC. She did not heed the agreement. For you to confront again and demand commitment & transparency now.....will make you appear desperate and controlling.

The options I see left are (1) call your DB coach (why are you "saving" the calls when you need the session now?); (2) Drop the rope; (3) Try the miracle MC; or (4) Physically separate. Perhaps someone else can offer something better, but I just don't think another confrontation is the answer.


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hoosjim Offline OP
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Did I really blow it that badly? Seems to me that its just that the place I am at now is "take action". What I am wondering is, how do I take action without "going into specifics" with her. I am NOT looking for another line to be drawn which she can cross. I KNOW i am in a tight spot with a woman that cant' be trusted and a bff enabler. Seems like its time for me to enforce my boundary and ask her to move out. To this point, I have still not yet "confronted" her about any of her contacts with OM or indicated I think she has violated them.

Is there really no utility at this point in saying "I told you I wont continue to live this way... I will not live with this situation/open marriage/lack of respect... I think you should move out of the marital home" and then going full last resort or beyond the last resort technique.




I am really sorry because I seem to have ticked you off, and I am just trying to do the best I can.
Perhaps it is just that we are talking past each other here-- to reiterate, I am not looking to set additional boundaries or "reiterate" mine or get her to "recommit".
We had ONE "you must cut contact" convo that included giving up the cheater phone and, yes, she was somewhat surly about it but I thought that was to be expected?
Then, after the "bad weekend" we had one follow on to say "look, lets both have a do-over, it was a bad weekend and we both probably messed up" (very true in both our cases) without specifying any boundaries being crossed

Now, she's violated the boundary, and pretty clearly so. I am ready to enforce it, and to end the marriage if necessary. I can't go on like this-- it is just too painful. I would just really like to know if you think there is no utility at this point to ENFORCING THE BOUNDARY and, if so, how, if you don't think I should have a conversation about it? I can't have her evicted and I shouldn't, apparently, dump her clothes in the hallway, so I am going to have to say SOMETHING to her.
I was just trying to get some input on how best to say that. The guidance the DB coach and you had given me seemed sound: "dont go into specifics on what you know", just "reiterate that I can't keep going on that way" and that "I think she should move from the marital home since she is not interested in commiting to work on the MR."
I am NOT interested in getting her to "recommit" right now because clearly she is NOT going to do so, at least not in any sense that includes cutting contact with the OM.
I was just looking for a 1) LITTLE guidance on how to deflect her attempts to find out exactly "what I knew" (which you helped with, thanks) and 2) to clarify that my endgame here is NOT at this point to seek a recommitment from her but to indicate she should move out. I only asked about additional assurances/restrictions because YOU were indicating that I should be trying to get her to "commit to saving the marriage." I KNOW i already tried that, didn't do the BEST job of it, but don't think I completely botched it, and now want to enforce that boundary I established.
Maybe when she realizes she is losing me and the boys it will hit home with her how harmful it is what she is doing.

I really am sorry because it seems I am suffering from a combination of 1) not doing things as best I could have and
2) not communicating on here very well.
Please accept my apologies because I really appreciate your help and the time you put in on this site.
This is very, very, very hard for me right now.

Last edited by Cadet; 05/22/17 08:57 AM. Reason: Combine posts

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"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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25yrsmlc thanks.

I am NOT expecting any such seismic shift. i KNOW we have VERY SERIOUS issues and a LONG track record of neglect here. Even without the A, I would consider us a pretty long shot to reconcile. But, nonetheless, that is what I am hoping and praying (and trying very hard to work) for. WITH the OM in the picture, however, I think we have precisely zero chance. It is, I am confident, as you have said that she views this as an "exit affair", and also that she sees the OM as her "soulmate and one true chance at happiness" (which is actually pretty laughable if you know the individual involved), and that she is, in all likelihood, looking at MC (or whatever else) as an easy and painless way out that gets her to the OM's arms without losing anything.

It is for that reason that I am trying very hard to do whatever is necessary (even though I know that in the end I cannot "change" her and that she has to "change" herself) to protect myself and my family from the "A" and, in the process, hopefully create an environment/dynamic more conducive to her coming to her senses and coming back (perhaps when she realizes she will be losing her family and MR?) I know and do not expect that this will happen all at once or even quickly. WE have a lot of work to do, even notwithstanding the A and the OM. I just don't see much point in doing that work as long as the OM is in the picture. As long as he's around, seems to me any "work" is just the steps she thinks she has to take to get through the MR so she can be with the OM.

Which is why I think I just need to pull the plug: "I told you I won't go on living under these circumstances. Since you are not interested in respecting my boundaries and committing to work full time on the MR, I think you should move out of the marital home."


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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