WW in A; NC achieved(?), Next steps. (2nd thread)

[sandi2]

Oh no!! I had just finished writing a book to your last post........and somehow I lost it. . This happens a lot on my IPad, and it's so frustrating.

Anyway, I can't repeat all of that again, so will try to keep it shorter.

To clarify, I was not suggesting you wait out the affair. I was suggesting you take a few days to calm down before making big moves.

I

f I thought it could be "waited out" I might try, but she is engaged in classic "cake eating", IMO, and thinks she can have the A, the marriage, and the kids. Waiting it out and just playing it cool and GAL-ing aren't, I think, going to cut it since I neglected her for several years and she would probably be just perfectly happy right now to have me step aside and do "nothing".

I disagree about the reason for playing it cool and GAL. One of the things that differentiates the WAW and WW is their motive behind their actions. In most of the WAW cases, their motive is welfare, protection and survival for their children and themselves. Not so with the WW, b/c her motive in everything is pure selfishness. It comes before her own children. Everything is about her. This is where I wrote too much in my first try, and don't have time to rewrite it. I'll narrow it down by saying if you were abusive, mean, hateful, spiteful, wicked, or too lazy to provide for your family and your W is trying to flee b/c of it.......then prove you have reformed. If you were a criminal, a pathological liar, addict, molester, etc............you bet she will need to see major changes before going back into a MR with you! However, those are not the norm in cases with a wayward wife. You can work till you turn purple trying to be what you think is the perfect H any woman would want.........and it will not change the heart of a wayward. B/C the problem that currently exist, lies within your W's wayward mindset and is playing out in rebellion. All that attention and time you want to lavish on a WW......will not work at drawing a wayward back into the MR. Once she is humble and owns responsibility for the pain she's caused and is remorseful.......then the couple has a shot at emotionally reconciling and the H will be able to give her more time and attention. I don't have the time to repeat what I have written many times about the differences in a WAW & WW and what a H with a WW should, and shouldn't, do.

Also wondering if, again, I need to try to pin down the OM (I know where I can find him this weekend) and let him know I know what's going on and that I do NOT consent to this and have NOT release my wife or if I need to, in some other respect, expose him and/or the A to remove some of the thrill and force it to END.

Do you expect him to run when you say you have not given consent for their affair? Who would you expose him to?

Only question is do I dump her clothes in the hallway as some on these forums have suggested?

Really? That's your only question? I don't think it's necessary. At least don't worry about something like that, until you see if she cooperates about moving out.

Remember, her attitude eventually tells the truth about the feelings in her heart.

[hoosjim]

DB coach suggested wait a few days, too. Going to be VERY hard. Sleeping VERY little. My stomach is like an acid ball. The Coach also suggested when having the "confrontation" to NOT directly address the "allegations" (as in "I know what you did" and even that I might not want to say "I know you broke your promise") but, rather, just saying "I can't keep doing what we're doing." Now, I am not sure if that second suggestion is going to be "tough" enough "tough love" in the case of my ww. Seems to me she needs to know I know about the A. But maybe not. My thought is I could risk looking weak, particularly since, while drinking, I made it known to BFF (without specifics) that I "know the A is more serious than she is letting on."

Thoughts?

[sandi2]

The Coach also suggested when having the "confrontation" to NOT directly address the "allegations" (as in "I know what you did" and even that I might not want to say "I know you broke your promise") but, rather, just saying "I can't keep doing what we're doing.

I agree with the coach's advice, and here's why. It's a about the words and the approach. The first example is a direct personal attack on her. Although it may be true, it's doubtful you will have positive results.......outside of her pretending to commit again. The second example is more open and includes more than just spotlighting her. It's about what you can't continue doing.

My thought is I could risk looking weak, particularly since, while drinking, I made it known to BFF (without specifics) that I "know the A is more serious than she is letting on."

It doesn't have to make you look weak. Looking weak would be you falling apart and crying on her, whining about what she's doing, or begging her to stop seeing the OM. Making demands and raising your voice doesn't make you appear strong. Approaching her in a calm, self-confident, and collected tone about your concerns can actually look stronger and help maintain cooled emotions at lot better than charging at her.

Now, I am not sure if that second suggestion is going to be "tough" enough "tough love" in the case of my ww.

You need to visualize how a confident man would tell his cheating wife that he can't continue going like things are going. You sound confident, you stand tall, look her dead in the eye, and speak in a low/soft volume. You don't cry, shout, or threaten.

Seems to me she needs to know I know about the A. But maybe not. My thought is I could risk looking weak, particularly since, while drinking, I made it known to BFF (without specifics) that I "know the A is more serious than she is letting on."

I guess this is how men think. They always want their W to know she isn't getting anything over on him. Perhaps it makes some sense when it comes to cheating, only it doesn't work in favor of the H when he spills everything he knows. A large percent of betrayed H's want confrontation with their WW before anything else, just to let her know they know. It only opens doors that call for more than the newcomer is prepared to do. But anyway, back to this concern of yours......... she knows that you know. okay? She's figured it out when you told her NC with OM. She doesn't know how much you know......and if you are smart, you will stay away from drinking, and her BFF. You don't tell everything you know at this point. I hope you'll listen to what I'm saying about this. That's what your coach was telling you. Take a few days to calm your nerves, and don't reveal how MUCH you know when you calmly approach her.

[hoosjim]

Thanks, Sandi, for the response. I will wait, pray, and buy some maalox and unisom.

But i should, yes, push HER to move out or start making such arrangements?

...meaning WHEN i do ultimately approach her with this, probably at the end of the weekend or early next week. who knows, maybe a miracle will happen by then. Im about due one...

[hoosjim]

Also, if my goal is to be somewhat imprecise in terms of accusations and keep it to "I just won't continue this way or under these circumstances", then how do I respond if she forces the conversation that way... as she is likely to do. She is very sharp/sassy, etc., and is likely to say "Well what do you mean by 'this way' and what do you specifically think the problem is" and/or "what do YOU think 'working on the relationship' should look like" (she has actually asked the latter question previously), which sort of responses necessarily force the conversation toward specifics about "what she is doing." Do I just keep it as simple as "I can't work on the marriage or cohabitate (or whatever) with someone who is leading the lifestyle you are leading" (to which she would probably say "what lifestyle is that" or "what do you think Im doing." And Im not just spinning out bad possibilities, here, this is how she often talks when confronted with something like this. At what point in the conversation do I default to "I am not comfortable with the relationship you ARE carrying on with the OM" (her answer: "what relationship, I agreed to no contact...") and then MY response is?....

[Cristy]

Also, if my goal is to be somewhat imprecise in terms of accusations and keep it to "I just won't continue this way or under these circumstances", then how do I respond if she forces the conversation that way... as she is likely to do. She is very sharp/sassy, etc., and is likely to say "Well what do you mean by 'this way' and what do you specifically think the problem is" and/or "what do YOU think 'working on the relationship' should look like" (she has actually asked the latter question previously), which sort of responses necessarily force the conversation toward specifics about "what she is doing." Do I just keep it as simple as "I can't work on the marriage or cohabitate (or whatever) with someone who is leading the lifestyle you are leading" (to which she would probably say "what lifestyle is that" or "what do you think Im doing." And Im not just spinning out bad possibilities, here, this is how she often talks when confronted with something like this. At what point in the conversation do I default to "I am not comfortable with the relationship you ARE carrying on with the OM" (her answer: "what relationship, I agreed to no contact...") and then MY response is?....

Hello hoosjim,

What did your DB Coach say about this the last time you spoke? Focus on those suggestions and let me know if you need to schedule another session.

Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

[hoosjim]

Sandi, I also wanted to circle back a bit on "not telling her everything I know. Generally, my approach will be "I just won't continue this way or under these circumstances", but then how do I respond if she forces the conversation toward what I know and/or what she has done. As I posted previously, this would be consistent with her pattern and her personality. She is likely to say "Well what do you mean by you can't continue'this way'" or "what do you specifically think the problem is" or even (as she has asked before) "why do you think this is some sort of torrid affair"AND "what do YOU think 'working on the relationship' should look like", both of which responses by her necessarily force the conversation toward specifics about "what she is doing" and why it isnt consistent with "working on the MR."

Do I just keep it as simple as "I can't work on the marriage or cohabitate (or whatever) with someone who is leading the lifestyle you are leading" (to which she would probably say "what lifestyle is that" or "what do you think I am up to.") And I guess I could just say "the going out all the time", "not knowing where you are", although she has gotten craftier and more secretive and some of the stuff i know, particularly specifics about the post-NC-agreement contact she's had, she doesn't know I know about (because it's the result of surveillance i don't care to reveal). At what point in the conversation do I fall back on"I am not comfortable with the relationship you ARE carrying on with the OM" (to which her answer would be: "what relationship? I agreed to no contact...") and then MY response is?....

Or do I just keep repeating "I am not comfortable with the way things are right now." or some variant?

Thanks, as always. I know you keep track of a lot of different folks on here and it must keep you very busy!

[hoosjim]

Cristy, I just had a session on Tuesday, and I have already contacted the office and there is a plan in place for further sessions. The coaching sessions are extremely helpful, but for me I find them to be MOST helpful when considered in combination with some of the experiences of the folks on the forum. I cant afford to have more than like one session a week and sometimes only one every couple of weeks, so it really, really helps me "keep with the program" to be able to get interim input on here, and so I am VERY thankful that you folks maintain these forums, which have proven to be an excellent supplementary/complimentary resource to the coaching sessions.

[sandi2]

But i should, yes, push HER to move out or start making such arrangements?

...meaning WHEN i do ultimately approach her with this, probably at the end of the weekend or early next week. who knows, maybe a miracle will happen by then. Im about due one...

I am hesitant to use the word "push", b/c that could imply something physical and you sure don't want it going there. I believe you said the law (where you live) does not affect either spouse that leaves the house.......is that correct?

We tell the faithful spouse he should not leave, if it affects him legally (should divorce and child custody come about). Unfortunately, we have seen many WW's refuse to leave and the poor betrayed H would be trapped in a house from hell, waiting for his WW to file or commit. So my advice is when you decide to approach her, to do it in as calm manner as possible. If you start in accusing her and telling her to "get out!"...........it may turn ugly and get out of hand quickly. You had better know for certain where you stand with the law. In some places, you can't kick a spouse of the house is in their name. Also, we have seen some WW's file false police reports that the H had threatened or they felt afraid of him, etc. So, it's important to have this talk at the right time (no more waking her up in the middle of the night) and to keep things calm. You need to be the one leading the conversation, and you need to stay in control of it. You don't do it by force.

You can choose a time when she seems to be in calm mood. You approach with one basic goal, and that is to hear her say she will commit to saving the MR. You won't accept her dancing all around the issues. You won't be led into some specific behavior of hers, at this time (which may prove to be very difficult). You are not going to give her precise examples or accusations, b/c it will definitely lead to other things and you still won't have a solid answer. So, you tell her you have no desire to be in a relationship under the current conditions. If she says, "What conditions?", just look her in the eyes and say, "I don't want a separation, but I cannot stay in a MR without complete trustworthiness and respect from my spouse". If she says, "And just what am I doing that makes you feel so disrespectful?"(or something similar to this), you say, "We both know what's going on, so we can either commit to working through the issues......or we can separate/divorce. Either way, we cannot continue with how things are now". If she starts up with something else, hold up you hand in the stop position....and tell her, "I am not going to get off into all of the specifics until I hear you commit to saving our M, or tell me you won't. If you say you won't commit, then we can prepare to take the next step". If she asks for time to think it over, tell her "no". Her taking time to decide if she wants to be M to you? No, b/c she will claim she still doesn't know what she wants.

I am not that good when it comes to telling people how to say word for word. Your coach may disagree with my suggestions. IMHO, you need to present yourself in a calm, controlled voice, steady, and with self confidence. Don't approach her as if you are her judge & executioner. The more you accuse her (especially specific things), the more wiggle room she'll take to twist & turn things and get you off track and turn it into a fight. Before giving you an answer, she may ask what you expect from her "if" she commits to the M. Then you can say, "To do whatever is necessary to save our relationship".

Here's the thing. You are already worried about her craftiness and all the things she might say. It will rob you of your confidence, if you focus too much on all of that. You know what's going on. You are not required to show proof or argue the case. She knows the truth, too. She has lied, betrayed, and disrespected you. All you want from her is a commitment to do whatever it takes to save the MR. And if she is unwilling to save the MR, then she should leave the marital home. If she says is not ready to commit, then you could say, "If you don't want to be in the M, then I feel it would be better for all of us if you lived somewhere besides the marital home".

Don't put yourself into the position of "explaining" what you mean to her, b/c that gives her a chance to harp on specifics. Stay in the lead, and maintain a steady voice. Do NOT try to put words into her mouth! Wait for her to say it herself. Every time she tries to skirt around it, bring her back to giving you an answer. Don't start trying to out yell her. If it gets out of hand, then leave.

Whatever answer she gives, it would probably be best to wait until the next day, before having further discussion about the relationship, unless this all took place early in the day. It's very emotional (even if there are no tears or yelling). In another couple of days, she might even change her mind, IDK. But I'm pretty sure she'll want specifics, b/c she wants to know how much you know. Don't play that game. Never reveal how much you know, or how you got your information.

[hoosjim]

Thanks, Sandi. Now, the only question is: Is she still seeing the guy. We had a talk on Monday, as I posted earlier. Recommitted to the no contact... I had not pinned her down on whether or not she had seen him though I know she had. We also agreed to try counselling. Yes, I know, that is supposed to be premature until after NC and after the grieving period and true remorse. This counselor is a good one, though, I had a couple of sessions with her solo, and she knows about the A. She thinks she can facilitate "ending it". I am not so sure. I could tell from the first session that my W (who is now in full-on revisionist mode-- "I had doubts about us from the very beginning"... "I have known it is completely over for a while now") is thinking that this will be a relatively painless path to exit the M. I intend to keep the DB going, however, and to continue "data collecting." If I find evidence she is still seeing the guy (and I somewhat strongly suspect she is and has just gone DEEP underground) my intent/plan is still to pull the plug and say "no more counselling, no more cohabitating" as long as you are seeing him. OTOH, next counselling is in 2 weeks, where we are to have several sessions in one day (both individual and together). Counselor thinks she can help end it, but... Idunno. The W could just as easily say "okay, im ending it" and then not do so. Anybody think I need to give it the two weeks and see what the counselling brings, regardless? I am of the opinion I need to stick to my guns on this, if it turns out she is still seeing him.