WW in A; NC achieved(?), Next steps. (2nd thread)

[hoosjim]

Starting second thread. Here is my first with my story:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2729896#Post2729896

In nutshell-- I seriously neglected W over 7-8 year period. There were overlays (health problems, 2 special needs kids, financial troubles) but ultimately the responsibility was on me-- I turned away from her instead of towards her. Wife is "sexual being", but not just sex is important to her but intimacy. EA started in October/November 2016 with a friend of mine who took advantage of situation and info both W and I confided in him to make his move. BD on 1/23 when I discovered the A. W said A not physical at that time, and I have good intel that this is so. She distanced for a few weeks while I was also awakening and GAL-ing, etc, during which things improved for us. Then, everything turned around and she started putting up walls and distancing again. In late March they spent the night together-- unclear if there was sex. The A MAY have gone physical, but I cannot be sure, she still says no-- at very least involved fairly explicit phone sexting, etc. The OM is kind of a low-life (serial drinker, womanizer, not much of a future, five years her senior but looks 10 years older) but is a "fun" and "funny" guy and really "makes her laugh." Based on her behavior, pretty certain she is a "WW" as Sandi2 defines that term. Got her to promise "No Contact" last week by establishing boundary of "no open marriage". She appears to be mostly complying, but started sleeping separately from me in guest room. Some but not alot of remorse shown for the A... "it just happened"... and she really fears alienating our boys (S16 and S18). Another BIG overlay is her BFF who also appears to be wayward (separated currently) and seems to be proponent/enabler of the A. Several other close friends who are in marital trouble as well. Hoping she and I can survive the storm, even if we're the only ones.

Trying to decide now WON to try to seek some MC.. she's mentioned but more in the context of box checking and "seeing if I want to try to work on marriage" rather than actually affirmatively "working on marriage." I am also struggling with the pursuit/distance dichotomy and how to balance that since it was "distance" that got me in this bind in the first place.

Also getting alot of conflicting "voices" on this. Please see my first thread for more details.

Thanks to all-- being on this forum really, really helps!

[hoosjim]

Okay, sending a call out to the WW experts here, Sandi2, especially (if she's still talking to me.) Trying to decide if what my W is doing is "normal" WW grieving where she has agreed to "No Contact" with the OM, or if it is a more troubling indication that she will likely be violating the no contact agreement. In sum, the W drove by the OM's favorite hangout tonight for a second time in four days (NC was agreed to a week ago today)... but she didn't go in. That indicates to me either that she is not in contact with him and so doesn't know WON he is there OR does know he's there and then chickened out and didn't go in. Or maybe she just wanted to check if he was there.(Again, nothing else currently open in the strip mall where this bar is and she never went there before starting the A with the OM so no reason to go into that lot other than to go to or by that bar, so she was there on account of the OM) At any rate, there does not APPEAR to have been any "contact", so she has not technically done what I told her would be crossing my boundary, though she did volunteer the following during that convo: "I wont be going to _________ (the bar)" and " I won't be seeking out any contact." I guess technically both of these are true, though she is toeing the line to be sure. On seeing her drive in there, I was ready to "put her out" (in this case, call her on violating that boundary I had established and to which she had agreed) but then she didn't go in. So, I'm torn between being somewhat pleased that she didn't go in and being irked that she drove by there in the first place. Did it violate my boundary? Technically, by the letter? No. In spirit? Probably yes. I understand the "grieving"/"recovery" process WW's need to go through-- is this an anticipated part of it? Should I be willing to let this slide? My take is that this seems hazardous and she shouldn't be doing it, but since not strictly violating my boundary maybe give it a week or so more and see if it continues.

Sandi2 is going to slap me for thinking I have to ask advice at every turn probably, but... i DO have a plan, here. It's just that, right now, I need to understand the mindset of the WW in one or two particular areas, and am not having much luck in the forums. Is the above behavior typical? Should a WW be given a little leeway in that regard in the early grieving process while I watch and wait a bit and give her some space (as I am planning to do) or should I be enforcing that boundary more strictly and insisting she not even drive by there?

For those wondering, I find all this out through family locator on verizon which works GREAT, BTW (and which she has never turned off on her phone), and I know pretty much when she is up to something ahead of time because she is an extremely inept liar and has a multitude of "tells" when she is up something, all of which I know.

[JRuss]

I would say driving by and not stopping isn't something, at your stage, that I'd go to the mattresses over. You raise it, and I think she then knows you're spying on her and tracking her movements, finds that creepy and demeaning, and I think she then concludes how on earth do I ever put a R back together with this man? Or maybe she's incredibly self-aware, and would immediately find the empathy to understand why you'd be doing this, isn't angry and doesn't shut down, but I kind of doubt that, or you probably wouldn't be in this place in your R in the first place.

It truly [censored] that she had this affair, but they really don't seem to end without a period of withdrawal that you have to patiently ride out if you're sincerely wanting to reconcile. Remember that many LBS never get even to this place, where the WS is at least articulating a desire to drop contact and work on the R. The drivebys are symptomatic of that withdrawal process and, if viewed in that light, maybe are not such a bad indicator (to the extent she hasn't stopped and gone into the bar).

[hoosjim]

This is interesting. Now, she tells me, she wants to have a "Mother's Day Date" with her BFF (the one who is herself most definitely a "wayward" and whom I strongly suspect of advocating/enabling her A with the OM) where she will then "sleep over" (probably at a hotel) with the BFF. This has disaster written all over it. I have said nothing about cutting contact with the BFF (I have no hard proof of her involvement/enabling/brokering in my wife's A) though have discussed with W that she should strongly consider WON the BFF is leading her in the right direction. She returned to our bed tonight for the first time in 5 nights after having asked me, and was visibly/noticeably friendlier. To me, this SCREAMS set-up to have a meeting with the OM. Not sure what I can do. There are ways I can monitor, of course, but I really feel like I shouldn't have to be, and SHOULDN't be, snooping all the time. Given my strong suspicion here and her pattern of behavior, guess maybe I try to monitor this one time to see... But seems to me she should be trying harder to earn some trust.

[sandi2]

Sorry I didn't see your post sooner.  

Okay, you say you got her to agree to NC with the OM.  Bear in mind that she still has a WW mindset.  I mean, you woke her from sleep, and stated your boundary.  I suppose, based on what you say, that she said there would be no more contact.  However, the agreemen to NC, alone, does not automatically end her waywardness.  Understand?    

You have quickly wanted to approach her about the Internet, FB, etc.  Do you mean b/c of the connection with OM?  If so, did you not say that she agreed to NC of any type?  If so, why do you feel it is necessary to have a second approach about her Internet activity? I don't recommend you approach her with anymore, at this particular time.  However, it may be needed later. Timing is very important, and H tend to have difficulty finding balance.

Her driving by their hang-out place, is very common for a grieving WW.  However, I get this uncomfortable vibe that there's more going on that meets the eye.  For instance, the response she gave you upon your approach about NC with OM.  She said it (the contacts) had dropped considerable.  Also, she accepted no responsibility.  Then one night after your boundary, she moves to a separate bedroom (I know about the bad back) and has remained there.  Three days after NC, she's driving by the hang-out joint.  I believe you said it happened twice?  Then the biggie.....she chooses to spend Mother's Day with her friend, and make it an overnighter......instead of being with her children on Mother's Day?  Why choose Mother's Day weekend to stay overnight in a hotel (you said probably) supposedly with her BFF?  Why couldn't she wait till the next weekend?  I mean, that's a red flag, IMHO.  

And with all of that ^^^ said, this is what I am wondering.  The OM was beginning to slack off with his contacting her, right about the time you hit her about NC.  Instead of worrying about her MR, she starts to feel insecure about their affair.....b/c of the actions of the OM.  She senses he is slipping through her fingers.  She drives by their favorite place to see if his car is there.  If it's not there, then she's worried he's found someone else. Maybe the BFF is helping her and OM with plans to meet up, IDK.....but it looks suspicious to me.  BTW, this would be completely in line with the mind and actions of a WW.  However, I don't really know what she was thinking or what was going on over the weekend.  

Let me explain something about the WW.  She may agree to NC, however, she will probably not feel remorse at the time her H approaches her about no more contact.  Also, she will experience something similar as you may have felt when you first discovered your M was in jeopardy.  It made you want to cling to your W even tighter.  You realized just how much you wanted to keep her.  Well, the WW begins thinking of how she'll be stuck in a M she doesn't want, and will lose her last chance at "true love and happiness" when the A ends.  She begins to desperately want to contact OM, at least see him one more time.  I said all of that to show you that there's a good chance she is not serious about no more contact, b/c of the emotional state of her mind.  That's not to say it won't change, but at the moment....she could be waffling.  Do you see what I mean?

So, I'm torn between being somewhat pleased that she didn't go in and being irked that she drove by there in the first place. Did it violate my boundary? Technically, by the letter? No.

And by the letter is what she'd bring to your attention, if you mention it.  

In spirit? Probably yes. I understand the "grieving"/"recovery" process WW's need to go through-- is this an anticipated part of it? Should I be willing to let this slide? My take is that this seems hazardous and she shouldn't be doing it, but since not strictly violating my boundary maybe give it a week or so more and see if it continues.

        
I doubt she'll be doing much of anything "in spirit" toward the MR.  Her actions are what count.  I wouldn't call it letting it slide.  Just wait a few days to see how things go.    

Is the above behavior typical?  

Yes

Should a WW be given a little leeway in that regard in the early grieving process while I watch and wait a bit and give her some space (as I am planning to do)

She is going to test it.  You can be calm or go charging at her like a bull.  I'm saying you need to wait for a few days.  She hasn't come to a complete decision yet (just b/c she agreed to NC).

or should I be enforcing that boundary more strictly and insisting she not even drive by there?  

Wait a minute.  Enforcing a boundary is not "insisting" she does anything.  She had a choice when you stated your boundary, and she still has a choice.  Enforcing it is when you do some type of action other than talking.  I've seen H's go around crowing about their boundaries to the WW, but when push came to shove..........he was all talk and backed down. I'm not telling you to act on her driving by to see if OM was at the bar. I agree with JRuss. However, if you should discover she is still contacting OM, and especially if she spent the night with him.....instead of the BFF, then you can resort to action.

Boundaries are not threats, and the more times a H repeats them.....the weaker the boundary appears.

BTW, when you stated your boundary to your W, I remember you saying NC......but did you discuss transparency, also. Did she actually agree to be transparent? If you discover bad news for the MR, don't panic and instead do an exercise that brings down high blood pressure. Leave and go to a private rual areas vent out those negative that is messing with you.

[hoosjim]

Dammit Dammit Dammit. Disastrous weekend. W's suspected wayward BFF invites wife AND me out for dinner/drinks on Friday. Ah, I think, maybe BFF is not the WW i think she is... maybe this is a breakthrough. Certainly an opportunity to hang with the W in a fun setting. Instead, I puzzlingly get completely hammered on four or five drinks (it is likely someone slipped me a Mickey... I am no alky but 4-5 drinks dont do that to me, not even close.) BFF maneuvers me into a conversation about how she knows I suspect her of being a bid influence. I confront her, tell her I know what's going on, etc. (though i don't offer alot of details). LAter, after BFF leaves, W takes me home, I pass out, she goes BACK out to the bar where BFF and presumably OM are. She is out until 5:15 AM, stopping to spend an hour and 15 mins at OMs house (I can track her car, remember-- not proud of it but its my only failsafe). Saturday AM she tells me she "just" ubered out to get car. I find out truth from my son who I am apologizing to for being tipsy coming home. Then I check the tracking records because previously thought "no way she did anything Friday night after we came home". TODAY, she stayed home "sick from work"... went out midday while kids at school, parked in vacant parking lot and left car for an hour. I can hear her and someone (pretty sure the OM.. he has a hot rod mustang that sounds very unique pulling in) laughing and her giggling. On today's little mission, can't say for SURE she saw HIM, but sure seems that way. I just discover this TONIGHT... AFTER we have had a convo about me apologizing for being drunk Friday and RE-committing to No Contact and a good faith effort to work on the MR and talk on a daily basis. I did NOT tell her I know she went to OM's house, just that I know she went to the bar. She had no further confession.

I feel like such. a. chump.

Obviously I need to drop the hammer. Going to try to gather some audio intel... would like to hear her for certain talking about the A with the BFF with whom she talks to on phone alot. Pretty clear W is communicating with OM via her cellphone somehow.

I can't "force" her out in my state, though if I have proof of adultery it is a bar to spousal support. My big lever though is her fear of losing the love of the kids, which, not surprisingly, was a big component of her talk with me tonight... "Why would we ever want to tell them anything BUT that it was a joint decision if we split.. anything else would just be to hurt them and me.." Not that she's thinking of splitting with the OM or anything.

Thoughts welcome. I love this woman but my heart is breaking and she can't be trusted. She was so sweet and so nice once upon a time. I am willing to "put her out" but may have to resort to holding the kids over her head (my only real leverage) to get her to go. Doing that might also cost me my current best friend who totally trusts his wife (My wife's BFF) from whom he is currently separated. Tomorrow is her birthday, BTW.

[sandi2]

What would have been the motive for WW & BFF (or anyone else)slipping you a Mickey? Wasn't your W going to spend most of the weekend with BFF anyway? I don't know why they would think you needed to be passed out while they carried out their plans.

She came home Saturday morning and played hookie from work Monday, right? What about Saturday & Sunday? Did she go out again? Wasn't her plan to spend Mother's Day weekend with BFF?

I can only imagine how upset you are. Please do not allow your emotions to make you reveal your sources of intel, or how much you know. Also, don't tell her you learned the truth from your son. Did you read the post I sent yesterday?

I just discover this TONIGHT... AFTER we have had a convo about me apologizing for being drunk Friday and RE-committing to No Contact and a good faith effort to work on the MR and talk on a daily basis. I did NOT tell her I know she went to OM's house, just that I know she went to the bar. She had no further confession.

What was said about "re-committing" to NC, and who brought it up? This is important to know. What did she confess? What was her demeanor?

She now knows you are using something to get your information, so she will go deeper underground to protect her affair. She'll look for devices you've planted.

I can't "force" her out in my state, though if I have proof of adultery it is a bar to spousal support. My big lever though is her fear of losing the love of the kids, which, not surprisingly, was a big component of her talk with me tonight... "Why would we ever want to tell them anything BUT that it was a joint decision if we split.. anything else would just be to hurt them and me.." Not that she's thinking of splitting with the OM or anything.

B/C telling the kids her version of the split is NOT a joint decision! It would be a lie to cover her a$$. Who brought up the subject of telling the kids, this time around? You may see it as leverage, but please don't threaten her about telling her children if she doesn't end things with OM.

Have you sought legal advice? What does the law say about a husband/father leaving the home to separate from his adulterous wife? You need to know if it would affect spousal or child support, and if so......how much. I hope you did your legal homework before you started down this avenue.

I think you should stop using words like "kick, force, or put her out". You're right, you can't make her leave if she doesn't agree to it. If it should get to that point, you can calmly tell her she should leave since she's the one who no longer wants the MR. But if she's stubborn about it (b/c WW's feel a sense of entitlement), your alternative is to leave and stay somewhere else until you reconcile or divorce.......or you can choose in-house separation (which is usually a no-win). But first, get legal advice!.

You must know where you stand legally, before you say too much. You have told her you would not stay in a marriage of three. You did not verbally give her an amount of time, did you? If not, then don't tell her she has xx amount of time before you end the M.
I can explain more, if you are confused.

I am not suggesting you back down from your boundary. I am saying don't back yourself into a corner. It happens when a newcomer acts on emotions and does not have enough grounding. I think you need to try to calm down and don't have any re-committing talks or drill her about her activities. You cannot make her behave. If you know she is not honoring your NC boundary, then the ball has been tossed to you. I guess you tried to pitch the ball back to her (re-commit). Don't let this become a pattern. If you feel you need more intel, that's up to you. Some H's have read or heard things that were difficult to erase from their minds........even after reconciliation.

[hoosjim]

Sandi, I did read your post. I am doing all of this because I don't see any other way. The A with the OM keeps developing and, apparently, STRENGTHENING even though we are nearly 7 months in to it. She is showing classic WW signs... acting out of character, not caring what her kids think, etc. If I thought it could be "waited out" I might try, but she is engaged in classic "cake eating", IMO, and thinks she can have the A, the marriage, and the kids. Waiting it out and just playing it cool and GAL-ing aren't, I think, going to cut it since I neglected her for several years and she would probably be just perfectly happy right now to have me step aside and do "nothing". It really seems to me the only option I have is to enforce this boundary... which may mean ending my marriage but I think without enforcing the boundary it will end anyway. And this guy is a dirtbag. I am not sure I could take her back after she was "done" with a relationship with him in a year, or two or whatever. I need her to commit to leaving it. There are already things that I have heard that are going to be hard to "unhear". Logistically, I want to force the issue... my intention would be to bring it up to her tomorrow (after I have heard what she has to say to BFF or anyone else after our talk last night). I would just say "I know you haven't been respecting the no contact commitment you made to me. I told you I can't and won't live that way. I know we talked about working on the MR on Monday night, but I will not do so while you are maintaining contact with the OM and I will not live with you under the same roof while same. It is clear to me that you do not want to be in this MR right now, and I think you should start looking for another place to live." Only question is do I dump her clothes in the hallway as some on these forums have suggested?

In answer to some of your questions:

Re the Mickey: Im not really paranoid, and I was half joking. Still, it was very weird and i still, 4 days later, don't feel "right". And it was not alot of alcohol for me over that timeframe. I suppose the motive might be that they would know for a fact I couldn't come snooping. W made up some story about me being "out of hand" when I came home and she had to leave, but my son, to whom I apologized because I thought I needed to, told me "you were fine, you just went upstairs and went to bed."

Re: Weekend plan and Actual Events: W's plan was to just spend Saturday Night and Sunday Morning with BFF. BFF invited BOTH of us out to dinner Friday because she knew she "couldn't "have" my W both nights to herself so she invited me." Saturday, both W and I were hungover (me I am not really sure why and she because she went back out and drank and hung out with BFF and OM and didn't come in until 5 AM).She left at about 6PM Sat to go have dinner with BFF. (This they did), and then go to hotel (this they also did). I WAS fairly sure they stayed there together (W was still hungover and BFF getting a cold)... UNTIL yesterday when the new paradigm of driving somewhere and getting picked up by the OM came to light. This easily could have happened Sunday but I have no proof of it, and their convo in car did not indicate any coming subterfuge.

Re: My intel sources and info. I already told her it was my S18 that told me when I apologized to him for coming in tipsy: I said +"He said 'you were fine, Dad, you went upstairs to bed and Mom ubered back out to see [BFF]" I heard her come in at 5, as I also told her. Dont think I actually tipped any devices to either one. I did not indicate I knew precisely where she went, just that I knew she want to see BFF, who i knew to be at the OM's bar since that is where BFF told us she was going when she left us. i DID say I knew the A was more serious than either was letting on, though I relied on the original phoncon I overheard which, in reality, is enough. I also indicated I had gone to the bar a couple of times to seek out the OM (dumb, yes, I know, to spill that, but I was drunk).

Re: What did she confess and demeanor? She "confessed" nothing. She knows I know she went to the OM's favorite bar, and she knows I know he is pretty much always there. She does not know I know for sure if she saw him there... I didn't force a response on that saying "I don't want to know... I do know things got pretty messed up Friday night, and I just want to know if going forward you can commit to working on this relationship under the terms discussed (and we discussed some specific plans like counselling, which she agreed to try and which she had agreed to try last week and I dropped the ball, talking regularly and, of course, NC with the OM) I asked her if she could truly commit to this going forward and she said "its the same thing we've already been doing." She was a bit evasive, not actually saying "I commit not to see him or contact him", which is something I had to kind of wring out of her the first time around. She was also initially reluctant to talk but ultimately we chatted quite a bit. She is very focused on things like "why would we want to hurt each other if we went our separate ways" and "the kids can be happy we don't want to present a fractured front because it will make it harder", and other things that make it pretty clear she is thinking primarily in terms of life after the MR. She brought up the subject of telling the kids in a roundabout way, but I did not bite. I have previously said I "will not lie" to them and that I think if she decides to leave to pursue another relationship that she should tell them so... She does NOT like that idea AT ALL because "we were already pretty much done." She has also become VERY revisionist again, which is a complete reversion to where she was in January: She doesn't love me now, and probably never did, citing all sorts of reasons I wont go into, but most of which are revisionist at least and outright wrong at worst.

Re: Telling the kids. I have not "threatened to tell the kids." Though she seems to think I said at one point "I think I would want to tell the kids". I have THOUGHT to myself that if she pursues a relationship with this OM, my former friend who betrayed me by pursuing a MARRIED WOMAN, his FRIENDS wife, that MY boys, my SONS, MIGHT want to know that if they were going to be carrying on any kind of relationship with this lowlife. Would I be wrong to bring up that latter sentiment to her if she pushes the issue?

Re: Legal-- in my state I cant lose property rights if I move out, and my kids are 18 and nearly 17, so custody is not really an issue and wont be the time the D, if any, is final (it is 12 months of separation where i live)

I dont want in house separation. I don't want to punish her but i really don't want her in the house with me as long as she is seeing the OM. It seems to me I am at the point now that IF i push this and IF she comes crawling back that she HAS to agree to pretty draconian (at least at first) transparency, etc., because... i just CANT trust her.

Also wondering if, again, I need to try to pin down the OM (I know where I can find him this weekend) and let him know I know what's going on and that I do NOT consent to this and have NOT release my wife or if I need to, in some other respect, expose him and/or the A to remove some of the thrill and force it to END.

Please expound more on this:

"I can explain more, if you are confused.

I am not suggesting you back down from your boundary. I am saying don't back yourself into a corner. It happens when a newcomer acts on emotions and does not have enough grounding. I think you need to try to calm down and don't have any re-committing talks or drill her about her activities. You cannot make her behave. If you know she is not honoring your NC boundary, then the ball has been tossed to you. I guess you tried to pitch the ball back to her (re-commit). Don't let this become a pattern. If you feel you need more intel, that's up to you. Some H's have read or heard things that were difficult to erase from their minds........even after reconciliation."

I don't intend to let this become a pattern. I intend to defend my boundary. I would like more intel. Maybe she just slipped up after an ugly Friday and our talk last night will make a diff. Unlikely, I know, but I'd like to be sure. Can't imagine i'll hear anything more hurtful than I have already heard. I understand I have the ball, now. Any suggestions on exactly how to broach it with her? I know I will need to be "calm" and I am confident that I can do that, though I do hurt.

Any other thoughts would be helpful. This [censored], but I am committed to doing what needs to be done if there is any chance to save my marriage. Doesn't seem like "waiting it out" offers that chance, here.


Sandi-- Two more quick questions in addition to the foregoing on this as it appears I am coming to a pretty significant nexus point:

1) When confronting her, might I give her a "chance" to c"come clean" say, by saying we need to talk and then asking, as if I know (which I do) "how many times have you seen OM since you agreed not to..." Or is that just "moving the goalposts"?

2) WRT the angle with the kids, because she is SURE to ask: "What do we tell the kids"... "Are you going to tell the kids". Understanding that I shouldn't threaten her with the kids as a lever, is it the right course for me just to say "I think you should tell them the truth, that you have met someone else and are not interested in staying married to me" and/or "You can tell them what you want, but, if asked, I am not going to lie to my children." (Possibly adding my thoughts on "they deserve to know the [censored] former friend betrayed their father before entering a relationship with him"-- but I am not married to making this latter statment)

Thanks

Sandi-- Two more quick questions in addition to the foregoing on this as it appears I am coming to a pretty significant nexus point:

1) When confronting her, might I give her a "chance" to c"come clean" say, by saying we need to talk and then asking, as if I know (which I do) "how many times have you seen OM since you agreed not to..." Or is that just "moving the goalposts"?

2) WRT the angle with the kids, because she is SURE to ask: "What do we tell the kids"... "Are you going to tell the kids". Understanding that I shouldn't threaten her with the kids as a lever, is it the right course for me just to say "I think you should tell them the truth, that you have met someone else and are not interested in staying married to me" and/or "You can tell them what you want, but, if asked, I am not going to lie to my children." (Possibly adding my thoughts on "they deserve to know the [censored] former friend betrayed their father before entering a relationship with him"-- but I am not married to making this latter statment)

ThanksSandi-- Two more quick questions in addition to the foregoing on this as it appears I am coming to a pretty significant nexus point:

1) When confronting her, might I give her a "chance" to c"come clean" say, by saying we need to talk and then asking, as if I know (which I do) "how many times have you seen OM since you agreed not to..." Or is that just "moving the goalposts"?

2) WRT the angle with the kids, because she is SURE to ask: "What do we tell the kids"... "Are you going to tell the kids". Understanding that I shouldn't threaten her with the kids as a lever, is it the right course for me just to say "I think you should tell them the truth, that you have met someone else and are not interested in staying married to me" and/or "You can tell them what you want, but, if asked, I am not going to lie to my children." (Possibly adding my thoughts on "they deserve to know the [censored] former friend betrayed their father before entering a relationship with him"-- but I am not married to making this latter statment)

Thanks



And finally, one more question (and please note i have "shotgunned" three separate posts, here, because I am in extreme turmoil and also sleep-deprived):

How important is it (if at all) to tell her "I know what's going on." Is it equally effective (or more, or less) just to say "I can no longer go on with the way things are going on" and if she pushes for what that means just tell her the things she knows i know: going out with her bff; going to the OM's favorite hangout; being out all night; having no phone transparency... etc OR does failing to directly confront the affair give it "life" or "legitimacy" or maybe put this whole thing "on me" for not being able to deal.

thanks again, I know you are a very valued and busy member around here...




And, finally, to color what you tell me (yes, 4th post)... i absolutely 100% AM ready to end my marriage if this A does not stop. I am not saying I need to run out and file, and I would obviously like to reconcile and if there still ways to do that, then fine. BUT... I can no longer allow myself to be treated like this. It is far, far, far too painful, especially given my particular dynamics.

[25yearsmlc]

Sandi, I did read your post. I am doing all of this because I don't see any other way. The A with the OM keeps developing and, apparently, STRENGTHENING even though we are nearly 7 months in to it. She is showing classic WW signs... acting out of character, not caring what her kids think, etc. If I thought it could be "waited out" I might try, but she is engaged in classic "cake eating", IMO, and thinks she can have the A, the marriage, and the kids.


Waiting it out and just playing it cool and GAL-ing aren't, I think, going to cut it since I neglected her for several years and she would probably be just perfectly happy right now to have me step aside and do "nothing". It really seems to me the only option I have is to enforce this boundary... which may mean ending my marriage but I think without enforcing the boundary it will end anyway.

this^^^ kind of sums up your most overall situation. I mean, keeping it simple



And this guy is a dirtbag. I am not sure I could take her back after she was "done" with a relationship with him in a year, or two or whatever.

Zero reason to worry about this^^ right now. Truly, don't even go to HOW you'd reconcile and THEN HOW you'd piece - which is harder, imo,

before you are even separated - it's a dark rabbit hole.


I need her to commit to leaving it.

well, we know.

But you need that before what?? Imo, she's not ending it on her own or she would have by now.

And in case no one else says it, I would not drink out of a glass and I would not drink more than a beer, if I were you. Period. It's not attractive or empowering.

Plus, if you do have a point about someone slipping you a micky, that's just too creepy to cope with.

It could have killed you too. I mean, wtf?

There are already things that I have heard that are going to be hard to "unhear". Logistically, I want to force the issue... my intention would be to bring it up to her tomorrow (after I have heard what she has to say to BFF or anyone else after our talk last night). I would just say "I know you haven't been respecting the no contact commitment you made to me. I told you I can't and won't live that way. I know we talked about working on the MR on Monday night, but I will not do so while you are maintaining contact with the OM and I will not live with you under the same roof while same. It is clear to me that you do not want to be in this MR right now, and I think you should start looking for another place to live." Only question is do I dump her clothes in the hallway as some on these forums have suggested?


^^^way too many words. Keep it to 3-4 sentences. And no, don't dump her clothes b/c it's undignified. And its what your sons will see YOU do.

Btw, I would expect that she'll move in with OM so please be prepared for that if you take this route. And have you spoken to a L or not? I'm still not clear. Reading this on your own online is not the same.

In answer to some of your questions:
--

i DID say I knew the A was more serious than either was letting on, though I relied on the original phoncon I overheard which, in reality, is enough. I also indicated I had gone to the bar a couple of times to seek out the OM (dumb, yes, I know, to spill that, but I was drunk).

change to "more sexual". And given the present givens, truly, don't drink at all for this ordeal.

It only helps for an hour and it can lead to more lasting damage than you may realize.



Re: What did she confess and demeanor? She "confessed" nothing. She knows I know she went to the OM's favorite bar, and she knows I know he is pretty much always there. She does not know I know for sure if she saw him there... I didn't force a response on that saying "I don't want to know... I do know things got pretty messed up Friday night, and I just want to know if going forward you can commit to working on this relationship under the terms discussed

the drinking and the goal post moving are not helping either of you.

(and we discussed some specific plans like counselling, which she agreed to try and which she had agreed to try last week and I dropped the ball,

meaning what?

talking regularly and, of course, NC with the OM) I asked her if she could truly commit to this going forward and she said "its the same thing we've already been doing." She was a bit evasive, not actually saying "I commit not to see him or contact him", which is something I had to kind of wring out of her the first time around.

having to "wring this out of her" doesn't bode well. You are not on the same page.


She was also initially reluctant to talk but ultimately we chatted quite a bit. She is very focused on things like "why would we want to hurt each other if we went our separate ways" and "the kids can be happy we don't want to present a fractured front because it will make it harder", and other things that make it pretty clear she is thinking primarily in terms of life after the MR. She brought up the subject of telling the kids in a roundabout way, but I did not bite. I have previously said I "will not lie" to them and that I think if she decides to leave to pursue another relationship that she should tell them so... She does NOT like that idea AT ALL because "we were already pretty much done."


she sees it as an "exit affair" and distinguishes it from an affair that happens in an otherwise functioning marriage but in which one party is weak or too tempted or just selfish.

She will justify this and you can expect that it will not change in her mind.


She has also become VERY revisionist again, ---
Re: Telling the kids. I have not "threatened to tell the kids." Though she seems to think I said at one point "I think I would want to tell the kids". I have THOUGHT to myself that if she pursues a relationship with this OM, my former friend who betrayed me by pursuing a MARRIED WOMAN, his FRIENDS wife, that MY boys, my SONS, MIGHT want to know that if they were going to be carrying on any kind of relationship with this lowlife. Would I be wrong to bring up that latter sentiment to her if she pushes the issue?

not sure what you mean "if she pushes the issue", but your boys will figure out a lot more than you imagine.

Sometimes, not always but sometimes, it's better to let them figure it out without calling their mom a name. Or implying it. Nothing I'm saying means you should lie to them if they actually ask.

And since you hold out hope for a recon, at least partly, always keep that long term goal in mind. Don't let anger take over if that's your goal and also even if it' snot your goal, your sons will recall how YOU behave now. How can YOU show are a "man of strength and honor"?

That ^^was the mantra of some DB men here, whom I still so admire. Some got their marriages back, others did not.

But they all retain their strength and honor to this day.
..

Re: Legal-- in my state I cant lose property rights if I move out, and my kids are 18 and nearly 17, so custody is not really an issue and wont be the time the D, if any, is final (it is 12 months of separation where i live)

I dont want in house separation. I don't want to punish her but i really don't want her in the house with me as long as she is seeing the OM.

agreed, of course. Bummer that OM knows way too much about the m. Did you share with him that your w wanted/needed more physicality and that you were not interested, so he knows all that too?

I'm not blaming, just asking. My guess is he justifies this too. Based on that info.


It seems to me I am at the point now that IF i push this and IF she comes crawling back that she HAS to agree to pretty draconian (at least at first) transparency, etc., because... i just CANT trust her.


IMO, She will either not agree, and then move down the street to OM's "guest room"

or she will comply, temporarily, and resent the hell out of you.

Any "conditions" you impose, must at least match some promises you make as a h.



Also wondering if, again, I need to try to pin down the OM (I know where I can find him this weekend) and let him know I know what's going on and that I do NOT consent to this and have NOT release my wife

Unusual wording. So do you think he believes you surrendered or "released" her to him, b/c of the intimacy issues you told him, or what? Also try not to refer to her in a way that sounds like she is your property for release or barter, in case it gets read that way.

I know you didn't mean it that way. Why not say you love her and you are still her h and you want to be her h and you have a family together ?


or if I need to, in some other respect, expose him and/or the A to remove some of the thrill and force it to END.


good luck with "force it to end"....to whom would you expose HIM?

Please expound more on this:

I am not suggesting you back down from your boundary. I am saying don't back yourself into a corner. It happens when a newcomer acts on emotions and does not have enough grounding. I think you need to try to calm down and don't have any re-committing talks or drill her about her activities. You cannot make her behave. If you know she is not honoring your NC boundary, then the ball has been tossed to you.

this^^^^

I guess you tried to pitch the ball back to her (re-commit). Don't let this become a pattern. If you feel you need more intel, that's up to you. Some H's have read or heard things that were difficult to erase from their minds........even after reconciliation."

I don't intend to let this become a pattern. I intend to defend my boundary. I would like more intel. Maybe she just slipped up after an ugly Friday and our talk last night will make a diff. Unlikely, I know, but I'd like to be sure. Can't imagine i'll hear anything more hurtful than I have already heard. I understand I have the ball, now. Any suggestions on exactly how to broach it with her? I know I will need to be "calm" and I am confident that I can do that, though I do hurt.

Any other thoughts would be helpful. This [censored], but I am committed to doing what needs to be done if there is any chance to save my marriage. Doesn't seem like "waiting it out" offers that chance, here.

agreed that waiting it out does not seem to be working. My guess is that it lessens the chance of recon in the long run.

[25yearsmlc]

And, finally, to color what you tell me (yes, 4th post)... i absolutely 100% AM ready to end my marriage if this A does not stop. I am not saying I need to run out and file, and I would obviously like to reconcile and if there still ways to do that, then fine. BUT... I can no longer allow myself to be treated like this. It is far, far, far too painful, especially given my particular dynamics.

understood