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The excitement of what if

"GOD does for us what we cannot do for ourselves"

I am not religious or spiritual for that matter. We were raised without any religion. I do not even know if I believe in GOD. But I took great comfort in this quote, so on some level I must believe somehow.

When I first came onto these boards, I had no understanding of what was going on. I tried to make sense of it. It was really hard for me to accept it because everything was shaded in this giant cloak of secrecy.

My STBX continues to deny gambling, and infidelity. He recently admitted to a problem with alcohol. (which I was oblivious to until I went through really old credit card statements) He would neither admit to nor deny a more serious drug problem. There is a lot of financial indications that point this way. As did everything else. I went back and read a lot of my old posts. My descriptions of my ex and our marriage all pointed to some one living with an addict.

I had no clue. I was really oblivious to the signs. I do not think I was a codependent. Only someone very ignorant and someone that was easily deflected and gaslighted.

I am very sick over this, because it seems like the drugs he has a problem with are drugs that are not easy to overcome. I am pretty sure that they are hard core. Its sad because he just had everything going for him. He is so smart. He went to top schools and earned top grades in an area that is certainly not easy. He is a hard worker and was always able to figure out things that others could not. At one time he was really a nice guy. He cried during my labor because of the complications and pain I was going through.

He really turned into someone that was so manipulative and so selfish and so evasive. It was this slow progression and hard to recognize and identify. I knew something was wrong. I was mad and resentful of him frequently because of many of these very selfish behaviors and because of the lack of transparency. And it all now makes sense. I was living in this really crazy and unfair world that slowly got worse and made less and less sense.

If I found out and he did not leave me, I do not know what I would have done. I do not think I would have left him. But I would not have reacted well to all that loss of money. We had so much potential as a couple. We were 2 professionals. Yet, here I am living with my parents like a knocked up teenager.

I am conflicted because I know this is a disease. I know now that he left me, because the only way he could avoid facing his financial destruction was to end our marriage and blame me. If i had found out, which I would have he would have had to answer to me. He would have had to admit something, that he is not even admitting to now. (he cannot because of custody and legal implications). He refused a drug test. He continues to deflect and his main concern is ensuring his own resources. He is still functioning at a high level (if you ignore huge amounts of debt and financial mismanagment and no more marriage). I know that in a few years, he cannot sustain this and its really sad.

In the after school television programs, they admit there is a problem, apologize and get better. That's not really the case here. When I asked him about all the money that was unaccounted for his response was "it was my money. I could spend it anyway I wanted" we were a married couple that had moved in with my parents because I thought we needed to save for a house.

But here's the thing. I don't feel good moving on. I don't get this great sense of satisfaction thinking of a future and listening to Gloria Gaynor. I feel really sad for how this turned out. Like its this bad dream I cannot wait to wake up from. Or perhaps like its this alternate path in my life that was never going to be actually lived by me.

I am just so normal. I do not like to stand out. I like being free of drama and conflict and I always made decisions based on practicality. So this being my life is hard to deal with. I hate that at work, I am pittied. The person that people will feel bad for. I feel really bad for my STBX because he is similar to me in that regard, yet this seems to have fallen upon him. And I know how ashamed he would be if he was capable of really seeing what happened. I do not know if he will be able to ever fact the reality of what he has done.

So right now, I have really mixed feelings. I do not know how to proceed. I need to realize that he is not him anymore and keep my son protected, but at the same time I need to be realistic and work within the system and look at things from a grayer perspective. I have to make decisions on how to proceed. I need to worry about the best financial arrangement for my son and I, but at what cost? And understanding that if ex does not get help there is little future any how.

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Originally Posted By: JujuB
I like being free of drama and conflict and I always made decisions based on practicality. So this being my life is hard to deal with. I hate that at work, I am pittied. The person that people will feel bad for.


Hey JuJuB,

I think you meant the following instead of the above: "My situation has shown me that people care about me because I'm a good person with good guts. They know that, unfortunately, bad things happen to good people and are concerned about me."

Can you look in the mirror and say 'I love you'? I hope so, because I've read most of what you've posted here and you have good guts.

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Quote:
I need to worry about the best financial arrangement for my son and I, but at what cost?


Do not worry about the cost to your H. Any money you get from him is money saved from being pissed away on his addictions. You will actually be in a better position to offer him help if he does get sober in the future, if you get a really good settlement now.

Also don't fall into the trap of thinking if you're "nice" to him in the negotiations and don't ask for everything you are due, he will be more likely to come back. It NEVER works that way on these boards. Never.

Get the most you can to help you raise your son because your H is likely to be a deadbeat dad in the near future.

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Hey Ju,

I'm not on much anymore, but I felt the pull of your post. Just dropping in to add a few pennies to the conversation and give you stuff to consider.

I'm the sister of a drug addicted brother, who lost his life to complications from that addiction 2 1/2 years ago. I'm now also close to his XW.

Quote:
because it seems like the drugs he has a problem with are drugs that are not easy to overcome. I am pretty sure that they are hard core.


I cannot emphasize this sentiment enough. Do you actually know why drug addiction is a disease? I heard that bandied about most of my early adult life, and it wasn't until much later that I found out. Some drugs, the instant they are taken, change the chemical makeup of the brain. Once that happens, for the individuals who are affected by the changes, it can't go back to the old wiring. With help, those neurologic events can be bypassed. Without help, they cannot.

So like people with many other diseases, it can be treated but never cured.

You can't want sobriety for him more than he does. You can't fix this - you're a bystander who happens to love him.

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At one time he was really a nice guy. He cried during my labor because of the complications and pain I was going through.


I absolutely believe you. My brother was sweet and considerate with a big heart when he wasn't in his addict mode. He can't help it. His addiction has taken over his life.

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He really turned into someone that was so manipulative and so selfish and so evasive.


Yep, they're the best liars and manipulators on the planet. And if you feel gaslighted, I'm here to say I can promise he engineered that. It's how they are able to hide things as long as they can. I'm not here to tell you my story with it - it's ugly and painful and the ending was as cathartic as it comes. There was healing in his passing.

Quote:
In the after school television programs, they admit there is a problem, apologize and get better.


That's because they want to instill hope that there can be treatment. But it starts with the addict and ends with them. If they are not willing to do everything possible to maintain sobriety, it will NEVER have a happy ending.

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But here's the thing. I don't feel good moving on.


Quote:
I am just so normal. I do not like to stand out. I like being free of drama and conflict and I always made decisions based on practicality. So this being my life is hard to deal with.


I can promise you that you already stand out. You're also a walking soap opera because of him. You are a casualty in his war, and this drama is not one to attack with practicality.

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I hate that at work, I am pittied. The person that people will feel bad for.


I say this in peace, my friend. At some point, some people won't extend compassion. You will be a reasonable person who isn't willing to stand up for herself and her son and some people will be unkind to your face and some will talk behind your back. They will disrespect you. You might even jeopardize your relationship with your son down the road.

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And I know how ashamed he would be if he was capable of really seeing what happened. I do not know if he will be able to ever fact the reality of what he has done.


Listen, I'm sure he *is* ashamed. But his addiction holds all the cards and he can't change course until he's willing to hit rock bottom and claw his way back to the top. Very few (in the grand scheme of addiction) in that war decide to do it, but I do know quite a few who have.

My SIL was counseled by her parents, my dad, my sister and I to protect herself and their 2 girls. They owned a business together, and my brother siphoned all of it for heroin. She was left with pretty much nothing and has had to claw her own way back. Although she loved my brother (and still does), she divorced him to protect her children from the financial free fall he was putting them through. She took over the reins of their business and employed my brother. And her subsequent amour wound up liking my brother and making him a death bed promise to take care of his girls, and promised that he would always keep his memory alive in the youngest (who was 6 at the time).

Three years later, we're still able to make sure that she has a relationship with the living man who loves her and not the ghost she once loved.

You aren't the first person to love an addict, Ju. It's a heart breaking path, especially when the addict just can't seem to stay clean. If you were my sister or friend in real life, I would have this conversation with you on an ongoing and supportive basis.

I loved my brother with all my heart. I miss him. He and I had the same quirky and sometimes evil sense of humor, and we found a way to communicate with each other when we were angry. Toward the end, I had to shut him out of my life - he left a swath of destruction in his wake, and EVERYONE he loved and who loved him was caught in the web. We loved each other and all felt the same way, but we turned on each other out of sheer frustration. My brother provided peace and healing in this wide wake with his passing - and we've all committed to each other that we have each other's backs.

My niece turns 9 next month. And I think it's absolutely awful that she has to grow up without a dad because he couldn't find her reason enough to claw his way to permanent sobriety. I was super angry with him for a long time after he died. I was taking his daughter places and thinking, "A*hole, this is YOUR job." (Not that I hate doing it, it's just that he would have had a blast doing it - if that makes any sense.)

You love a person whose demons, by virtue of their physical properties, have a bigger hold on him than anything else in this world. Nothing you can do or say will change this, Ju.

I don't want you to not have hope. I know you're not a religious person, but you DO have spiritualism in you. It doesn't take much to meditate and offer positive thoughts to heal the situation. Direct those thoughts toward him and yourself. Find a few Youtube videos on meditation. It's a spiritual form of prayer. And just because you weren't raised that way doesn't mean there isn't healthy benefits to the practice. laugh

The system can only protect you if you protect yourself first. After that, you can still offer him the chance to connect with you and your son when it's good for you. You can offer him support without being sucked into the quicksand. That's called loving detachment. It really does work.

Big hugs for you, sister. It's a tough road to hoe. You deserve to live your life the way you want to - and that might mean leaving him be to figure things out while you move forward. (Notice I did not say move on. Moving forward means loving yourself first and putting your son's needs above all else. He deserves that.)

Betsey


"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."

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Underdog

Addiction really causes so much destruction.

The Giggalo is a compulsive gambler, this stuff destroys lives, families and stability.

My prayers.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
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Thank you all for your posts and responses. They really mean so much.

This discovery has been really, really hard for me.

All the secrecy. The double life he led. This scares me so much. I just feel so naive. I think I am in a pretty deep depression and not quite sure how long this will last. Doing things that are unstructured (work, taking care of son) are challenging. I just seem to lie in bed or google stuff on addicts. And its not productive.

I feel lonely, but when i spent times with friends last night I still felt lonely. All of my friends had stability and partnerships. They are in great places of their lives. They are building futures. And I am at a bottom. (i am just hoping no more landslides down)

It feels different then BD. At that time, I felt hope that there could be reconciliation. I felt MOTIVATED to work on myself. My ego was deeply wounded and I felt motivated to be be attractive and to do. I do not feel that way right now.

Instead I just feel defeated.

He took away so much from me. Things that were communicated and we were in agreement with from the beginning of our committment. Financial stability, and more children.

He kept everything a secret. He deprived me of a relationship. If i had known, I would have had a choice. It would have been more of a partnership because he would have been sharing something with me that affected us as a whole.

I always said, we never had a team unit.

Its been almost 2 years since he left. And I am really struggling to move forward. To be productive. Doing the mundane right now. This is challenging me.


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((( JuJu )))




Originally Posted By: JujuB
Thank you all for your posts and responses. They really mean so much.

This discovery has been really, really hard for me.

All the secrecy. The double life he led. This scares me so much.


because you think differently of yourself in the past, now?

Or the gas lighting?

And Or the addiction itself?


I just feel so naive. I think I am in a pretty deep depression and not quite sure how long this will last. Doing things that are unstructured (work, taking care of son) are challenging. I just seem to lie in bed or google stuff on addicts. And its not productive.


Juju, 2 questions-- is it okay to be sad awhile? And, why is it non productive?

I ask myself the same question

at what point is the self examination and study to learn from this crap, turning into depression and wallowing and being stuck...?

I don't know. Maybe when I get too sick & tired, of feeling sick & tired...?



I feel lonely, but when i spent times with friends last night I still felt lonely. All of my friends had stability and partnerships. They are in great places of their lives. They are building futures.


hmm...like on fb with highlight reels? Or do you really believe that they have no challenges in their life? I'm not debating, just probing your view...of course I'm not where you are in stage of life. But your second guessing & asking "what happened and when??" really resonates.

One thing my T said that helped, was realizing that I believed things were true, b/c I wanted to validate my choice to stay, (subconsciously).

That itself does not make me - or you - stupid. Sometimes you just have to trust the love of your life.



And I am at a bottom. (i am just hoping no more landslides down)

It feels different then BD. At that time, I felt hope that there could be reconciliation. I felt MOTIVATED to work on myself. My ego was deeply wounded and I felt motivated to be be attractive and to do. I do not feel that way right now.

Instead I just feel defeated.


could it be your form of resignation and acceptance? Are those required for you to detach fully, to no longer have him as a factor in your choices?

Is that^^ bad?

Before you realized the core issue, or that his inner turmoil was not something you had any control over at all, you DBd and believed your course of action could change the marriage. I totally get that.

The feeling of being "defeated" after years of feeling you could make a difference... resonates with me but for different reasons.

So if we and our children are collateral damage in a struggle not of our making, now what?


He took away so much from me. Things that were communicated and we were in agreement with from the beginning of our committment. Financial stability, and more children.

He kept everything a secret. He deprived me of a relationship. If i had known, I would have had a choice. It would have been more of a partnership because he would have been sharing something with me that affected us as a whole.

I always said, we never had a team unit.


I'm nodding and getting this^^^^...

cry
no words




Its been almost 2 years since he left. And I am really struggling to move forward. To be productive. Doing the mundane right now. This is challenging me.



you may feel lonely, but you are not alone.

How long has it been since you fully realized the core problem and extent?


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Its been almost 2 weeks since I realized what the core problem was. It was only through financial disclosure that I figured it out. He had over 50 grand per year of unexplained money being pulled out from ATMS in really nasty neighborhoods. In addition to credit card debt and withdrawing large sums from his IRA. In addition to a decent amount of money being spent per month at liquor stores on his credit card.

For years, he was so evasive. Especially regarding finances. He was always disappearing, and always in the bathroom. Weird things that I look back on now as well. Like he knew A LOT more about pharmacology then your average person. He could not wake up in the mornings with alarms blasting for 2 hours (i am not exaggerating) He missed picking son up from preschool because of this. Certain physical issues and ailments. He had a group of friends that I never saw, that I knew were into bad drugs I just assumed he outgrew them.

Now, I still have no actual proof. He refused a drug test. Husband was never around for me to see any behaviors that would indicate drug use. He was awake all night, and constantly gone. There is a chance that he was taking money out and just hiding it. But why from the bad neighborhoods completely out of the way? Why withdrawals of cash every single day? If he is using, he is very high functioning. I was told by a drug counselor/social worker that that is very common of opiate users.

I came on here as Julieh in summer of 2015 not really understanding what was going on. He shared all the symptoms of every other walk away spouse on here.

The only difference, is that many posters on here talked about a great love and friendship and relationship that they missed. And I never felt that. I felt like my marriage was always void of a partner. Like I was begging for team mate and he just wasnt around.


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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
((( JuJu )))




Originally Posted By: JujuB
Thank you all for your posts and responses. They really mean so much.

This discovery has been really, really hard for me.

All the secrecy. The double life he led. This scares me so much.


because you think differently of yourself in the past, now?

Or the gas lighting?

And Or the addiction itself?


the addiction bothers me tremendously. It feels as if I just discovered my STBX has AIDs. I am afraid for how it can progress and for how it can affect my 6 year old son. But also the gas lighting. That was the worst part of BD and now I am realizing how much it made up our relationship. I would bring things up to him and he would deflect or make it out like I was difficult and stubborn and nagging and controlling. I thought I was a horrible wife and person when he left. I entered a short termed relationship, and really see how compliant I was to things I should not have been because I wanted to proove to myself how selfless and non controlling I was. I dont know who I am any more

I just feel so naive. I think I am in a pretty deep depression and not quite sure how long this will last. Doing things that are unstructured (work, taking care of son) are challenging. I just seem to lie in bed or google stuff on addicts. And its not productive.


Juju, 2 questions-- is it okay to be sad awhile? And, why is it non productive?

I ask myself the same question

at what point is the self examination and study to learn from this crap, turning into depression and wallowing and being stuck...?

I don't know. Maybe when I get too sick & tired, of feeling sick & tired...?




I guess I feel time ticking away. I am almost 40.
I want to move forward. I want a parntership with someone. But I feel held down from all the secrets. from all the legal decisions I have to make. Most of all From the financial mis management. But also From the sadness. People say, "it should not matter just move forward" And they are right. I am so unhappy. The truth is, I do not want my ex back. And i have not wanted him back for a while now. So that is not holding me back. I dont really know what is.


I feel lonely, but when i spent times with friends last night I still felt lonely. All of my friends had stability and partnerships. They are in great places of their lives. They are building futures.


hmm...like on fb with highlight reels? Or do you really believe that they have no challenges in their life? I'm not debating, just probing your view...of course I'm not where you are in stage of life. But your second guessing & asking "what happened and when??" really resonates.

One thing my T said that helped, was realizing that I believed things were true, b/c I wanted to validate my choice to stay, (subconsciously).

That itself does not make me - or you - stupid. Sometimes you just have to trust the love of your life.



I think my problem was truly that I believe others to be like me. I was very trusting regarding my husband. I told him everything. I just expected the same from him. The double life is scary. But also there were signs that something was wrong. I approached, I fought, I complained. Torwards the end, I catered to him....That was the most humiliating part.

And I am at a bottom. (i am just hoping no more landslides down)

It feels different then BD. At that time, I felt hope that there could be reconciliation. I felt MOTIVATED to work on myself. My ego was deeply wounded and I felt motivated to be be attractive and to do. I do not feel that way right now.

Instead I just feel defeated.


could it be your form of resignation and acceptance? Are those required for you to detach fully, to no longer have him as a factor in your choices?

Is that^^ bad?

[color:#FF0000] Perhaps. And it might not be bad. I know now that he is incapable of rational thought. I know that he is incapable of a healthy relationship. He is just empty. To have done what he did and reacted to me the way that he did says a lot about him. Not me. I am ashamed for him. And see him for a very weak man. This was progressing for about 7 years though. And does not take away from some pretty bad behaviors I exhibited in our relationship as well.

But I dont know if my bad behaviors were a reaction to his, or just bad.


Before you realized the core issue, or that his inner turmoil was not something you had any control over at all, you DBd and believed your course of action could change the marriage. I totally get that.

The feeling of being "defeated" after years of feeling you could make a difference... resonates with me but for different reasons.

So if we and our children are collateral damage in a struggle not of our making, now what?[/color]

Now what? Once I figure that out, I will be ok.
But thats the scary part. What do I do with this new information?
It has custody implications. It has financial implications. I am struggling with this and I just dont know what to do. Do i legally fight for money that is most likely gone? The fight is expensive and will he even be able to pay back that money in the future? He declines drug tests. How do i know if my son will be safe. Will more conflict cause him more stress and more drug use? Will him having to pay me back more money cause him to seek cheaper and even more fatal drugs? this is the stressful part.



He took away so much from me. Things that were communicated and we were in agreement with from the beginning of our committment. Financial stability, and more children.

He kept everything a secret. He deprived me of a relationship. If i had known, I would have had a choice. It would have been more of a partnership because he would have been sharing something with me that affected us as a whole.

I always said, we never had a team unit.


I'm nodding and getting this^^^^...

cry
no words




Its been almost 2 years since he left. And I am really struggling to move forward. To be productive. Doing the mundane right now. This is challenging me.



you may feel lonely, but you are not alone.

How long has it been since you fully realized the core problem and extent?


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After a deep and meaningful conversation with myself, and yes I answered and argued back! I believe I have concluded the following phases:

Target- including the love bombing and sweet cycle phases, manipulation and gaslighting, unaware, in 'lurve', hopes for the future, slightly bewitched, bothered and bewildered

Spell break - an incident or series of incidents to the red pill

Victim- staying to try and 'work' it out, self blaming, questioning, fear, dread and being treated badly, bullying and hurt daily, being great negative supply, knowing it's not ok but staying anyway, this was the long and very destructive phase of control and part denial

Grand finale: discard, drama, one major incident following challenge, mask falls completely from other, snake dead eyes, real fear of harm and injury, death threats and warnings of financial destruction

Boundary- gradually setting boundaries and becoming stronger, firm in NC

Recovery and Survival- peace and reading, uncovering, utube, learning, courses, IC, medical help, therapies of all sorts, dodging, more NC, drawing it out until I stabilise, being able to enforce boundaries, exercise, great eating, extreme self care, gradually feeling safer but triggered, cleansing, purifying and becoming

Fight back- (where I am now), standing firm on boundaries, defending divorce actions, legal cases, beginning to have a normal life, social life beyond family and friends, leaving home in the evenings

Thriving- freedom I hope!

--------------------

Juju

The lying in bed thing with research on addiction. It's part of the Kubler Ross phase, I stuck there for 9 to 12 months. You will get to a point of being gorged on it, sick to know more and still thinking somewhere there is magic.

It is ok to do this, truly, and in abuse sitches with gaslighting and mirrors, addiction and waste it isn't depression. Anxiety, exhaustion and trauma maybe. It ok, you are supposed to do this, it is a great sign that healing has begun. I guess that's a very tough phase to be in when your adrenals have exhausted and you are weary to the bones. It's ok, your broken heart will heal, extreme self care, great food, some exercise, lots of rest, extreme, extreme, extreme, and if I haven't said so extreme.

The loved ones of addicts reaaerch for a medication, a treatment, a word, a process that wilL make it OK. Eventually you will come to see acceptance in it. That it isn't your journey, and the peace will come and on to the next phase. This knowledge, this search for meaning is part of that which is needed to reach the higher self. And when it comes to you, the deep understanding that you rely and have care and love for yourself, that it's enough, this frees you from your loved ones and let's you allow them their path, even if that is to destruction. That is their choice.

Big hugs, you know where I am if you need a little Internet hug or a tiny bootstrap.

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Juju

If you are in America you can usually require a drug test for the other parent to exercise visitation.

I have a childhood friend with drug problems. As far as I know, she lacked a criminal record, but somehow her ex h made it a requirement for both of them to take drug tests in order to see their son unsupervised. She refused.

She did not see her son for 10 years...

So even without dragging in the cops, I would think this information given to your lawyer (the unexplained ATM withdrawals in weird areas and his behavior and sleep patterns, and more, etc) would greatly assist you in protecting your son.

So that's one big thing you may be able to shelve. Also, i'm 57 and realizing that at some point in the past, my h wasn't really in our m.

I do understand wondering about ourselves, our Identities, and the self doubt.

More later...


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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I was told by attorney that she did not think judge would mandate drug tests, because I had no other proof. I have never seen STBX inebriated in any way. (he simply was not around) and the missing money could be attributed to prostitution or gambling (which i doubt) etc.

I am also not looking to deprive ex of visitation with son. My son adores his father and the more they see each other, the better for both of them. Ex will be more willing to help son out financially if he is part of his life. He might have more of an incentive to work torwards sobriety (if it is in fact a drug issue) for his son. Son needs special memories with his dad. He deserves some sort of relationship with him and right now STBX is capable of something. Who knows about the future.

I do not want to be punitive. I do not want to humiliate or embarrass ex. But I do want to know son is safe. Ex has agreed that all overnights would have his mom present. From what I gather through son, my ex MIL does most of the care taking and STBX takes him on outings.

BUT IS THIS ENOUGH? If its a drug issue, I know it will go downhill. What do I need in place for the future? I am talking to social workers and drug counselors and my lawyers and none of them seem to really have an answer for me.

Some people tell me to try to get back that depletion of marital assets. Im up and down about it.

Im up and down about STBX. Drug addiction is a disease. Its physiological. Some times i view him as this villain that took away resources from a child, and severely psychologically abused me through gaslighting, blame, deflection, and irrationality. Other times I view him as someone that is diagnosed with AIDS or Alzheimers.
Was he always this narcissitic or was it drugs? I dont know who he really was either.


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What the ex does is his choice not yours.

Addicts don't change their patterns, the days, the times, the habits. You will have those documented in the first step.

You probably only need a friend or PI to be there with a camera.

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It's hard because I have so many mixed feelings. If I had discovered an affair I would have hated ex. I would have acted fast and probably been a bit spiteful and vengeful. I never would forgive him. I would have been back at the gym full force with a brand new wardrobe to boost my ego.

My ex treated me really bad in order to hide and deny his addiction. He neglected his son and continues to seek to maintain his resources for himself. He always had an addictive personality. He was not someone that was able to handle discomfort. Physically and I guess emotionally. I am really mad at this. It's not right and it's not fair.

But I have empathy. These drug companies stocked up pharmacies knowing they were pushing a highly physiologically addicting drug on the market. (There are class action suits currently being pursued as well) Doctors prescribed drugs meant for terminally ill cancer patients to pts with back pain like candy. It's disgusting and a big epidemic.

At the same time I don't want to enable, I also don't want him moving forward to cheaper drugs.

He hasn't been himself these past several years. And I dont know if it's because he's a selfish narcissist or if it's because of what drugs did to him.

At one time, he greatly loved me. He would run out and buy me tampons when I needed them for Gods sake! He researched the hell out of proper swaddling techniques when our son was an infant and he figured out the simple reason as to why I was having trouble nursing (when breast feeding consultants couldnt). He was the one crying when our son was one and they had to draw his blood.

He was in debt. He never asked anyone for help. He had access to all of my money and he never took it. Instead he took high amounts of money out of his IRA to pay off debt. That would only happen with someone that had no control

He was deeply ashamed and needed to deny and blame our marriage. I think he was provoking fights because having a way to end the marriage was an easier way them to admitting what really happened.

I don't want to handle this situation cruelly or punitively. Or in a way that makes me right and him wrong.

He was so so so wrong and cruel these past 5 years, but he wasn't always like that. I don't think he was anyway.

I have my answers right now. But it's a bad answer. He still wants to deny and ignore.

I can use the courts to push for more. But at what cost?

On one hand my son might have some more resources. As his mother, I should push for this. Its the right thing and its his fathers responsibility. Im the single mom taking on tons of resppnsobility. I was deprived of the chance to own a home and have an asset to retire with. I was deprived of the opportunity to have a much wanted second child. I dont want to enable. I'm a classic bleeding heart and im getting taken advantage of. He has had the upper hand before this discovery because legal bills are so high. Now I have the upper hand legally. He was going out to sone very expensive restaurants in 2016. That's not fair.

On the other hand this comes with more conflict, humiliation, and God knows what else. He's building up debt again. He can't sustain this. Long term he will not do well. Not if what everything is being pointed too is true.


I am rambling because I am greatly conflicted about how to proceed. I have always had trouble making decisions and this is an awful one to have to make.

I am so depressed, I don't want to get out of bed and face anything any more. Thank God for work and my son or I would be locked up in my bedroom.


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One minute I think "it's just money. Won't even be a huge amount (but definatly helpful and money thats not being given to a dealer) and won't necessarily even be recoupable"

And then on the other hand i just want to mvie forward and have things conflict free.


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I am sorry you are feeling so depressed right now. If it wasn't for my daughter I probably wouldn't leave the bedroom either. Our kids really are angels.

I know your decision on to whether or not to get more money is weighing on you. Have you asked the lawyer how much it would be? I do believe you need to weigh the benefit. Sometimes you can't put a price on piece. If it is truly a life altering amount, I would say go for it. But if it's a few extra bucks in the pocket, I would probably let it go. I have been letting it go for years. I could probably get like $50 more bucks a month but it isn't worth it to me.

No decisions need to be made now. But the decision needs to give you some peace.

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Technically, it is a significant amount that he would owe. Its all a matter of perspective though, but what he would owe me by splitting the depleted marital assets would pay a 20% down payment on a home here. Or a nice portion of sons college. It [censored] because all this money going to drugs could have paid for a home here and a really comfortable mortgage! And that's just from a 3 year point. I don't have financials beyond that.

I do have to consider the following:

The cold Practical stuff:

1. If I pursue, I would change lawyers. Litigation costs are high and negate some of what i would have the possibility of obtaining. So may not be a down payment. And probably stretched out over the next bunch of years.

2. There is also the issue of will he even be able to repay if it is mandated. If he has an addiction (and it really truly seems to be the case) I don't see how he can sustain a job for much longer. I don't know how much longer his health will hold out. There is currently no money, as he is building up credit card debt again (blames it on child support) He withdrew high amounts from his retirement account and yet lives with mom and earns 6 figures. But this shows me he is most likely still purchasing some expensive stuff.

Some people think he is not using drugs, but hiding money. If this was the case, I would pursue legally. But the fact that he has cc debt, and withdrew from IRA, and lives with mom seems to indicate something is up. (unless he is a manipulative master mind and hates me that much )

Sad Emotional stuff

1. I still care about him. Obviously, There is no chance of reconciliation. But I am not looking to do things to further stress and downward spiral. He obviously has some pretty bad demons he is dealing with.

2. This will prolong mental agony for all of us. Heres the crazy thing...He gets annoyed that I am taking so long BUT HE HAD SO MANY DAMN SECRETS!!!

3. I am worried that I am constantly giving in and giving in and giving in. GIVING IN COMES AT MY EXPENSE AND THUS SONS EXPENSE. I have an obligation to secure resources for son. He has been extremely selfish regarding resources. WHen I confronted him he actually said "I provided and made sure everything was paid off. Its my money I can spend it anyway I want" THIS WAS NOT TRUE. HE MOVED IN WITH MY PARENTS FOR A YEAR.


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I keep rehashing and rehashing.

But the basic question is this...

Is me not pursuing more from him, further enabling? A disservice to my son?

Or is it a practical decision that will give my son more happier memories with his dad and help with less conflict?


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Quote:
Is me not pursuing more from him, further enabling? A disservice to my son?


THIS.

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Originally Posted By: JujuB
Technically, it is a significant amount that he would owe. Its all a matter of perspective though, but what he would owe me by splitting the depleted marital assets would pay a 20% down payment on a home here. Or a nice portion of sons college. It [censored] because all this money going to drugs could have paid for a home here and a really comfortable mortgage! And that's just from a 3 year point. I don't have financials beyond that.

I do have to consider the following:

The cold Practical stuff:

1. If I pursue, I would change lawyers. Litigation costs are high and negate some of what i would have the possibility of obtaining. So may not be a down payment. And probably stretched out over the next bunch of years.

2. There is also the issue of will he even be able to repay if it is mandated. If he has an addiction (and it really truly seems to be the case) I don't see how he can sustain a job for much longer. I don't know how much longer his health will hold out. There is currently no money, as he is building up credit card debt again (blames it on child support) He withdrew high amounts from his retirement account and yet lives with mom and earns 6 figures. But this shows me he is most likely still purchasing some expensive stuff.

Some people think he is not using drugs, but hiding money. If this was the case, I would pursue legally. But the fact that he has cc debt, and withdrew from IRA, and lives with mom seems to indicate something is up. (unless he is a manipulative master mind and hates me that much )


he does not have to hate you (but he may right now) to justify theft to "protect HIS MONEY"...He rationalizes or hides from far more than you realize. Please protect yourself and your son.


Sad Emotional stuff

1. I still care about him. Obviously, There is no chance of reconciliation. But I am not looking to do things to further stress and downward spiral. He obviously has some pretty bad demons he is dealing with.

2. This will prolong mental agony for all of us. Heres the crazy thing...He gets annoyed that I am taking so long BUT HE HAD SO MANY DAMN SECRETS!!!


yes I understand your view. Totally


3. I am worried that I am constantly giving in and giving in and giving in. GIVING IN COMES AT MY EXPENSE AND THUS SONS EXPENSE.

yes it does - there is zero benefit to giving in, that i can see


I have an obligation to secure resources for son. He has been extremely selfish regarding resources.


you have some answers here^^^. NOT easy at all, but not complicated...

WHen I confronted him he actually said "I provided and made sure everything was paid off. Its my money I can spend it anyway I want" THIS WAS NOT TRUE. HE MOVED IN WITH MY PARENTS FOR A YEAR.



well, then he's either spending it on drugs AND OR hiding it. And justifying it...

Legally & strategically I'm not sure what your question is. How is doing nothing in your son's or your interests?

Emotionally, I do understand your dilemma...the past, the present and the future and how to see them all...

When my T asked me what I wanted out of therapy, I finally said "I want help accepting that my m is over, and move forward in a healthy way..."



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Originally Posted By: kml
Quote:
Is me not pursuing more from him, further enabling? A disservice to my son?


THIS.


yes^^^^


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Juju,

I'm sorry you are struggling and I absolutely agree with Ellie and 25. And maybe I'm missing something, but how can not pursuing your STBX financially give your son better memories with his Dad?



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"he does not have to hate you (but he may right now) to justify theft to "protect HIS MONEY"...He rationalizes or hides from far more than you realize. Please protect yourself and your son"

We always kept our bank accounts, credit cards everything separate for the most part. So he does not view it as stealing. He views it as "mine". I was always the saver and it made no sense that I had more then him since I went down to part time to watch son. He earned 2/3 my salary.

We moved in with my parents for a year. I thought it was to save money for a home. But really he had hidden credit card debt (i am not responsible for it)

After I retained attorneys (and was told how important they were and how much i needed them to protect me in lieu of mediation) , I was told by lawyers that everything was too expensive to fight for, no real guarantee either and would leave us both with little. I was told that he was most likely a bad spender and that all that money could not be recouped. That is until I researched these withdrawals (lawyers did not even look at the statements or even tell me that they had them until recently. Im the one that went thought them). Now I am not 100% sure anymore. I was in shock and more worried at the time over the safety issues regarding possible addiction.

He has no money. It is gone. A judge might enforce that ex pay me back some of it as it was unexplained depletion of marital assets. But no guarantee. I could spend a lot in legal fees, for judge to rule in ex's favor. Also, if he loses his job or spirals further downward (seems typical with an addict) I will get nothing and be out of those legal fees. Where I live the lawyers charge 400 to 500 dollars/hour. Every 5 minute email is charged as 15 minutes and costs me a fortune. It seems like they get paid just to scratch their head and think. Its crazy.

So yes. He is wrong. He should be paying us back that money. But I am seeing that with cases like mine, it becomes a matter of lawyers literally telling me they cant do much to help me because their fees are too high. That if we were talking millions, it would be worth it.

I am honestly glad that we are no longer married. I am glad that he was the one to leave. I have no guilt and will not struggle the way many spouses of addicts will. I have a chance at a real relationship with someone. My son will not grow up observing a really unhealthy dynamic.

But I'm still feeling deeply traumatized by it all. The way he left, the whole legal process, and the secret life he lived, and whether son will be safe in the future.


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If I had good reason to believe he would be capable of working and maintaining his salary for the next 15 years it might be worth it. Perhaps what I really need is an actuary instead of an attorney.

And like I said, emotionally I really do feel bad. Its hard to come to terms with the idea that the person I basically grew up with has turned into a monster. His actions are those of an enemy and mine should be as well. But he is also someone I loved and that I know has a disease that changed his brain function. Yet Im the single mom living with my parents in a region I cant afford and cant move away from because of the custody implications. Theres just no good answer.


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I dont know if I am playing devils advocate because thats a way to avoid conflict for me (same as when I had to take him to court for child support) or if what I am writing makes practical sense.

Thanks for hashing this one out with me guys. You dont know how much I appreciate it.


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I think that deep down you know what to do. Do you want to get some of the money back knowing that it's going to be costly for you (and with no garantee) or do you move forward and plan sensibly using what you have?

I understand how hard it must feel for you but remember that you have managed to cope so far and that shows how strong you are.

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Thank you rouky.

I'm climbing out of my slump. I just wrote an email to attorney regarding necessary changes to opposing counsels proposed decree. I am asking what else has not been disclosed. I am trying to separate this portion as pure business. Someone told me that 95% of time judges will go by law, and that is all I want. At this point it is too expensive to switch attorneys so I just need to be part of this more.

I am making appointments with my hypnotherapist who I really trust and relate to and i have an appointment with a counselor/social worker next week who has experience with addiction.


I am and have been obsessed with ex's addiction, googling Whether addicts can be remorseful, reading forums for drug users, trying to see if ex is a narcissist or addict.

But I have just as dangerous of an addiction, and that's the way I am not moving on with my own life. I need to start a second job, I need to stop procrastinating, I need to get better organized, I need to get my power back.

My hypnotherapist told me that while yes I have been victimized that she does not want for me to become a victim. That I need to move forward and regain my power. And I realize how with my situation, I do come across as not the strongest woman.

I went to one alanon meeting and met a woman that just came across as sone one severely abused by her husband. She had taken him back and you could just read her body and language as someone without power and control. I never want to be how she is.


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Journaling a bit

This has hit hard. I have been feeling very depressed. Son is with father, and I literally did not leave my room yesterday. Even acute BD, I was getting out, going shopping, exercising. But right now, I have been in a really bad mood. All I want to do is sleep and escape.

I might need ADs, but I do not know any MDs that I would trust and I am afraid of medication. I do have an appt with a counselor for next week though.

I am relating to the main character from Rosemarys Baby. Everyone around me acting like things are normal, when really there was this major threat. And that's what I feel like. Ex's mom refuses to acknowledge that there is an issue. Ex was and is so damned secretive. And he continues to act like everything is normal. If I did not share a son with him, it would be different. I would never have to deal with him. But this is scary. Addiction is scary. It is dark and dirty and dangerous.

I have been reading a pretty well known drug forum, and that world is just so scary. Its hard to discover my ex is part of it and was leading this double life for so long. And I never ever want my son to be part of it either.

I feel like there is just too many people I have to deal with that are dark and manipulative and liars and codependents. The lawyers, my ex, and his mom. I just want that all gone.

I am glad to be away from ex. I know now what I was up against. I know why I was always so frustrated. I know that he was empty and selfish and could never be a real partner to someone. It was this frustrating battle where I was always trying to just get him to be a partner to me. I did not know why he couldnt and now I know.

I should have been the one to have left him. Many spouses of addicts at least have the knowledge of their spouses addiction. My spouse was so secretive and I feel manipulated and lied to. He made it out like he had this demanding job so that he could "provide" I deserved to know so that I could make the choice. The financial duplicity is revolting.

I dont know how to get over this. The only good thing, is that he is taking the minimum visitation. There are no custody battles. I have to remember that.


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I just wanted to say I am so sorry for the depression you are going through. I know how much it stinks. But right now I think you are reeling over the shock of something. It's like a betrayal all over again. But I know you will get through this.

I would continue perhaps with the alanon meetings. Just to help understand you are aren't alone. I always thought about going to one and I never did.

I know the temptation of all the research. I know you are looking for something, anything, to give you comfort. But I think the best place to find it might be in those who have gone something similar.

I'm thinking of you and praying for you (to some god or another:)

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Thanks ginger, I went to 1 alanon meeting and didn't love it. I know I'm supposed to give them more then 1 chance. But there were some seriously messed up people in this meeting I went to and it kind of turned me off. (One guy left and told everyone to F off because he was talking and his time was up, and many of the people there were former addicts themselves. ) It felt a bit cultish to me. Lots of rules and reading out passages together which I don't seem to have the attention span for.

I think at this point, I need one on one or maybe a small informal group of people that have been through something like this.

No one but me and my family seems to even recognize that there is a problem and that scares me.

I read some of newcomers and many of the walkaways have mixed feelings. They do temperature taking. They come back and sleep together. They come back and leave again. My ex was never ever like that. He just wanted out. It is scary how one could emotionally detach himself so easily from me. He made it out like it was all me. He argued every valid point I brought up and then blamed our failed marriage on those arguments. He was so blatantly wrong about things, yet denied and continues to and it's like I'm arguing with a mad man that comes across as valid and put together. This affects me so much and I know I just have to walk away and say, "hey I'm dealing with someone that's not all there"

But I also doubt myself because he comes across as so cool and in control. And like the perfect divorce buster. "Let's agree to disagree" . No there's no disagreement. He's wrong!!!!! The financials reveal everything. What other proof do I need?

I want to move on. I can't wait to be at the point when I am on these forums discussing my dating life with you guys! It's been 2 years already. I should be past this.

Vanilla wrote something about this not being depression but trauma from an abusive situation. The covertness of it all is a huge mind f. But he does not want anything from me. He is uninvolved. He just wants the divorce over and done with and wants to give as little as the law allows. He is not trying to control how I raise son. Or anything for that matter. He just wants to be left alone. So is it really abuse ? Is it me?


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You know, my exH never had any mixed feelings. Never temp checked, never tried anything with me, he was done. He used the D word the second he dropped the bomb and was gone that night. Your ex had drugs numbing things. Mine had an OW.

Your ex is so detached from HIMSELF which is why he can say "let's agree to disagree" He is in denial. He doesn't see any of this.

I think we can almost say somehow we were all "abused" and have trauma. My "trauma" has manifested itself in future relationships sadly enough and how I handle break ups. I fall apart because I feel like my ex is leaving me all over again. And this manifests depression. I don't really need to label it. I just need to learn how to deal and cope with it. My IC is helping me.

I think the key is to work on your depression. To focus as much as you can on your side of the street. I know how difficult that can be. I'm completely off my ex's side of the street. My anger builds up when I feel trapped and hopeless in my life due to decisions that he unilaterally made. But what choice is there? I got to just focus on me and how to deal with these feelings.

I know you can too.

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Juju,

I'm sorry you are having a difficult time. It's tough to wrap your head around some of these things. My ex h never waivered either. Well, he wasn't excited about moving out because he was going to have to start paying for stuff. But he never told me he loved me or tried anything once he moved out. He did get angry when I dropped him as my husband of FB but he was with his gf by then. And that felt odd.

I think this alters us in a way that we can't fully comprehend. Doesn't mean we can't live a great life, love again or move forward. Just means..... we sometimes see things differently than before. And I think that is exceptionally difficult to really wrap your head around.

Try to do what ultimately feels best for you. You can't help him and you are only going around once on this planet in this format. Try to focus on what is going to make you happiest.

Hang in there!



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Juju,
I'm so sorry you are having these feelings. Fortunately, you are not alone with us here. Continue to vent and process.

I'm in the same boat- 2 years and not one tiny ounce of hesitation or remorse. Not one tiny minuscule. Zero temp checks. Nada.

It boggles my mind, too and I often think... Was any of it real? Did I mean that little to him? Three months after our separation, I was in his presence when I got word of a family member passing. I collapsed to the floor sobbing and it was as if I was by myself. No condolences, no hand on the shoulder. He didn't even offer me a chair. Stone cold. Regardless of any lack of compassion towards me, It was his relative, too and he showed nothing! I'm just thinking about it and I'm crying.

My ex had some serious vices with money as well. And it didnt come out until the disclosure phase of the divorce. I Don't know about you, but I am disgusted by my ex and his dishonesty. I know I'm better off, but it doesn't make it easier.

Hugs to you. You'll get through it. It's rough, but you'll rise again. I know it.


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I know everyone says to make the focus about us and how we are going to move forward. And I get it totally. That where I need to be.

But I just want to understand so badly about spouses like ours, that are able to be so emotionally disconnected. I mean, we are talking about spouses that shared our lives with us, had children together, grew up together! I want to understand the psychology behind it. Was it something that I just missed while dating? The drugs?

Knowing is part of the puzzle for me. It teaches me what to avoid. Helps me understand what I truly need to address and what was manifested by my ex for whatever his purposes were.

What are your thoughts regarding this?


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Pax, you are doing great with focusing on you and your exercise goals. Congratulations! I need to follow your example.

Are you discovering some vices similar to my ex's that your ex was trying to hide?

I am so disgusted by my ex and his dishonesty. I am better off. He is not capable of any type of real relationship. Just smoke and mirrors and it is just so DISTURBING for me to realize I was living a lie. I was so unhappy for so long and just never understood. I tried to rationalize with him. I would get mad and argue. I had absolutely no control.

Why did I not recognize it for what it was? That is so disturbing to me.


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Quote:
But I just want to understand so badly about spouses like ours, that are able to be so emotionally disconnected. I mean, we are talking about spouses that shared our lives with us, had children together, grew up together! I want to understand the psychology behind it. Was it something that I just missed while dating? The drugs?


Very simple. The WAS no longer 'feels' warm fuzzy feelings towards the LBS. They follow their feelings. Sometimes they have the desire to inflict pain in an attempt at revenge for their pain. Sometimes they just want to chase the dragon of a new relationship or something they think is better for them. And unfortunately in today's age we believe in 'following your heart' which can easily be taken to a destructive extreme. So as long as WAH looks at his feelings as his moral compass and he doesn't feel bad behaving badly, he believes it's ok because it doesn't feel bad to him. And if only you had been different he would feel different and wouldn't act how he's acting. Or whatever. This is why I don't like feelings as a compass.


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Great insight from Zues. Spot on.

Hi Ms Juju! Thanks for those kind words. I'm using this awful experience to become the best woman I can possibly be. The goal is to be better, not bitter, right? Let our pathetic ex's rot while we blossom. Ok, that was unnecessary of me... But it's kind of true.

For the sake of anonymity, I can't disclose too much about the legal side of my d, but I promise you it would make your head spin. Maybe when my d is final, I will share a bit more in addition to what I've eluded to, but it's NASTY.

Enough about me. To answer your question, "why didn't I recognize it for what it was?" Because you loved him and you believed he would never betray you. Period. But love is blind and you got burned. Absolutely nothing you can do about it now. Nothing except take care of you and s.

I get it, Juju. I really do. I guess unlike you, there were clear cut signs in my sitch. I saw how nasty and vindictive ex was/is, but I was stupid and never believed he could do it to me. I watched him make enemy after enemy and I felt bad that people just didn't understand him...... But now I'm on the other side of the coin and its absolute hell. This guy will stop at nothing.

Juju, you can do this. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. You are stronger than you think and you'll continue to get stronger. You have a long, full, life ahead of you and you have the power to make it a great one. Don't let this nonsense hold you back.

Take care of yourself. Again, I get it. Don't want to be harsh. He's just not worth your rumination.


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Very good insight zues. I think it's beyond that though with many of our spouses. I know we never want to ignore our own issues and start handing out diagnoses'. But it gets to the point that when it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it generally is one.

A lot of the walkaways on here are narcissists and abusers.

A lot of us are in denial and blame ourselves in the name of personal growth.
Which just feeds abuse, because that's how it thrives...with denial and self blame.

Most of these marriages shouldn't be saved.


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So what are your thoughts on my question- what do you think the divorce rate should be?


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I think the cheating rate should be 0.

I think the walking away from your heavily pregnant wife, because you want to go party with your friends and hang out with another woman should be 0.

I think that the abandoning your wife and child without child support after you spent all your income on drugs while you and your family lived off the in laws rate should be 0.

I think the adopting 5 children and then leaving the country and kids because you dont get your way rate should be 0.

To me, these actions are synonymous to divorce. They are not legally and technically a divorce. But in the true meaning they are.


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Just caught up with your posts JujuB,

We are so similar in our way of thinking. When I read you, it is almost like what I would have written. What we all went through isn't easy, however there is a point where the line needs to be drawn.

To me it feels like you are poisoning yourself trying to understand why it all happened. There are days when I wonder how ex can live with another woman's kids but his own. And then I realised that I'm not the one with the issues (well we all have, but I'm cleaning my side). What I'm trying to say is that I have given up trying to understand why or what all this happened. I will never get my answers as they lie with ex, and accepting this has lifted a weight off my shoulders.

At the moment the only person who is making you unhappy is you, not ex as he has already checked out. I'm not being rude or critical but it hurts me to see you like this. I have managed to come out of it and I can tell you the sky is more much clearer and bluer than with ex.

Have you thought about changing things in your diet? I'm slowly replacing white food with wholemeal and I can tell you that it makes a hell of a difference. If you don't want AD, have tried 5HTP ( from healthshop) as it has an impact on mood? Every morning I drink a warm glass of water and half a squeezed lemon and I'm not tired. These are healthy things I have tried and they worked for me as I didn't want any AD.

From what I'm reading you are struggling with accepting what happened. Would you want to go back to your old marriage? My ex never tried to come back as he was done, but you know what even if it's hard at times I know deep down I'm better off. Once you realise this you are taking a bit step towards recovery.

It's good that you read all those information about addiction as you are learning something new, however only your ex can help himself. He has to want to. As Job said several times, youn didn't break him, so you can't help him. You need to focus on what you want. Do you want to feel like this for the rest of your life? I guess not, so write down on a piece of paper a SMART goal ( an easy one) , then write down his you are going to achieve it. The goal has to be an easy one to built your confidence up and as you set yourself some more you will get better.

I'm sorry if my 2x4 are a bit harsh but it really breaks my heart to see you like this. Please take care of yourself and your little one.

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I am in negotiating phase now.

There are decisions to be made now that are not so black and white because of the issue of possible drugs. I am told by my lawyer that because our marriage was short (we were together for a little 15 years but married for only 7) it does not make sense to divide out pensions/retirements. It does not make sense to go after alimony. And that I cant go after all the money he withdrew secretly from his accounts...which makes no sense to me. That money could have been put down as a home or investment. He lied to me about that money. That money would have benefited our son in every way, but my ex is the LOWEST OF THE LOW. HE IS NOTHING BUT A SELF SERVING, SWINE.

I am told that he can later argue child support while son is in college. I am told that he can pay less then standard 17%, if I some day earn more money. This all seems terribly unfair, since his child support would not even pay for an illegal basement apartment where I live and since I have son way over the standard 70/30 percent of the time. I am told I cannot move to a more affordable area without his permission. (Which I am exceedingly grateful for and in all truth would rather have time with son then more money)None of this seems legit to me, but its what the lawyer is telling me.

I read all these men's rights groups and I have no idea what they are complaining about. The laws have certainly not been favorable to me.

I am not sure if my lawyer is just not aggressive, or practical regarding what courts would likely decide and the costs of legal fees.

The unfairness of the financial aspect really bothers me.

I am negotiating for supervised overnights, but wonder if its enough. Ex comes across as well dressed. Responsible. He is for the most part on time and always responsible with child support. He seems Concerned about son - he appears involved because i have extra curricular outings and parties scheduled for ex to take him to when he does have son. But really, he is only concerned when in front of the lawyers. He rarely asks about son and takes no interest in his health or educational interests. He is so high functioning, and so aware I even doubt myself about a drug addiction problem. So what is safe for son? I dont even know. And I want my son to have a relationship with his father.

My biggest fear is that my son will be like his father though. What to I do, what do I say to prevent that?

Just rambling and ruminating on the same things I always seem to. It is weighting heavily on my mind.


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Thank you Rouky

You're 2x4's are not harsh. Just very accurate. I am hoping to be more focused on myself once the divorce papers are signed. I am poisoning myself right now. I realize that just as my ex is poisoning himself with chemical substances, I am poisoning myself with procrastination, anxiety and negativity. They both have very similar outcomes. I am seeking help again this time with a counselor and I am trying hypnotherapy again. It is working. But today was a tough day. Tomorrow I will do better. I am going out with friends and will make sure to be productive starting forward. I was much better earlier this week though.

I have to break out of some very bad and self sabatoging habits.
Diet would no doubt help. (IRL, I do not come across as the negative nancy. I guess i journal all my deep rooted dark thoughts here on the boards . But surely they are in my mind and very damaging)

I would never want to go back to my old marriage. I am discovering that my ex had been leading a double life. I was so unhappy and did not know why. Things were always so unfair and imbalanced and unhealthy and I just didnt understand why. I have to figure out why that was so acceptable to me. Why did I marry him? There were tons of really selfish and foreboding behaviors before we married...I was just young and inexperienced with relationships. Why did I trust him over my own feelings?

The one way my situation has changed for the better, is I am now discovering who he was and who he is. For a while, I truly thought it was all me. We fought and argued so much, but I always believed him to be this great guy and husband. I know better know. Everything he did and said, was to ensure that his money went for himself and drugs. Me and our son were not the priority. I think that him marrying me was some kind of cover. For himself, and others. I really, truly believe this. I was the perfect girl to bring home to mom.

I look back and remember how the majority of his friends had addiction issues. A lot of them were alcoholics and there were some that I am now realizing had to be into some really hard core drugs. Beyond the typical college experimenting phase. Why didnt I see this?.... Answer because he was a really educated professional and because his mom was SUZY homemaker.

And I know, Im not supposed to be looking back but focusing on moving forward. But for so long, everything was such a secret. And now I am learning these answers. And the answer is still the same...

Just move forward with my life


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One of the things he said to me after he first left still haunts me and I would like insight.

He said "Nothing will change for you. I am the one that loses everything. (referring to child support) Its not like you had my affection"

He also said "you did nothing for me" When I said I raised our son he responded "thats not for me"

These are the words of a classic Narcissist.


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I wanted to come here and thank you so much for your post on my thread. And you are dead on right. I have the most awful habit of blaming myself and beating myself up and looking for what I did wrong. I was lead to believe my divorce was all my fault too. It sticks with you. It haunts you. It is a trigger and something that needs to be unlearned. I can understand how you sat there and thought this divorce was your fault. I am so glad you are finding out it is not. Sure, there are things we could all work on and 180, but sometimes, they are just not our fault. Our spouses unfortunate choices are sometimes at fault, and it's not us who lead them to those choices, they are ones we had no say in.

I know you IRL and you are smart, energetic, beautiful and fun. I understand the war that wages within sometimes. But it doesn't make us who we are. I think the biggest injustice to ourselves would be to deny ourselves happiness and peace. I might be doing that to myself now.

I am glad you restarted counseling. I am going to see my IC tonight. it really helps. And I just happened to be looking into hypnotherapy the other day. My mind spins. My mind will play a situation over and over like a repeated conversation in my head going in every possible direction. I need to learn how to turn it off if not slow it down. it's where my own self torment comes in.

Me, you, a night this summer. What do you say?

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We definatly have to meet up G. It would really be easy.

I love hypnotherapy. And I love my hypnotherapist. She has been through exactly what I have been through, so she can relate and seems to understand the type of help I need without me telling her. She's very intuitive and just seems really passionate about her field. I just talk to her about my life and she gets it. It was such a bizarre coincidence but our experiences have been insanely similar. It's more like a guided meditation and you're in control and aware the whole time...like if you want to get up and walk out of the room, you totally could. She said it normally takes about 4 sessions. It's not a forever thing. But I trust her and feel more comfortable with her then I did with counselors. The counselors were always so aware of that 45 min being up (And i totally get it) but this is not the case with my hypnotherapist.

She said something about like attracting like regarding relationships and meeting new people. Which is why we want to address our own inner demons I guess.

I have been in a relationship with someone that just wanted to be left alone for a really long time. I would fight and argue with him over not spending time with me...talk about pathetic. For me, it is hard for me to think that someone actually wants to spend time with me and connect on an emotional level so I am very detached with people. I have given all men the label of wanting their freedom and space over a relationship at an extreme level. I had the opposite problem that you did, in that I was and probably still am unable to truly invest in someone. A friend whose ex wife was also an addict told me that this is very common. I was able to be a light hearted friend and advice giver to that guy I dated a while ago, but I never truly could connect the way he seemed to. Although I probably sensed he was not a good match as well.

Really, I have to just sign the divorce papers and venture out. Reinstate my life.


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Hi JuJu,
I don't know if you've read any of my threads. I had seen your name a time or two, but never had gone back and followed you from the beginning. Something caught my eye in one of your posts last night to another person in this forum, and since I normally only stay in Newcomers, I guess I had missed your story.
I was reading where you were describing your STBXH's drug problem, and the signs that you missed for so long. It completely swept me away, and as I went back and began to read your story, I was stunned by how similar my H sounds to yours. I was up most of the night reading your posts, and today I have to say, perhaps my H's issues may not be the job, etc. that he claims them to be. I have to say, in the very beginning after BD, both my family and I wondered aloud if perhaps he had gotten into the wrong group of people in his new big city life and work, and possibly was doing some type of drugs. The more I read, the more I think this may be a possibility.
When you have a chance, would you mind going back to my threads and skimming my story, just to give me your perspective on what I've journaled over the last few months. I think there are 3 threads total so not a whole lot to cover, but I would treasure your thoughts and possible insights into what I've written. I know that we can never, and MAY never know, what the root cause is to the breakdown of our marriage, and I'm not asking you to diagnose by any means, but to have a fresh set of eyes on my story might help me, especially as he plans to visit (well, as you will read, we will SEE if he visits) in the coming days. Maybe you can advise me on things to look for while we are in the same house for a week or so. I have not seen him since Jan. 1, so there's been very little snooping to be done, with the exception of a bank account that we own jointly. Either he hasn't figured out that I can see his daily transactions, or he doesn't care, but either way, it's about the only way I have to know a little about his life. There are some scattered amounts of money withdrawn that I have no idea what they are used for, but then again, he is the only contributor to that particular account, so I've not asked, because I don't want to give away my one link to his life.
I hope things are going well for you. I've only caught up fully to about your 4th thread, so after this weekend, I look forward to catching all the way up to the present.
Thanks, Julie. It's so good to read others' threads and watch them grow and change, and become better, stronger people than when they got here. You're a real inspiration to me in my own journey.


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Ugh. Today is fathers day and my 2 year BD anniversary. Quite Fitting. We are in final stages of negotiating and the goal is to have our papers signed by the end of this month.

I have just been so stressed. I am coming to terms with

1. Feeling ripped off by lawyers
2. Discovery of financial infidelity at the least, and most likely husband leading a secret life as a drug/alcohol addict
3. Our relationship overall. The dynamics. The whys and hows. Why wasn't it preventable? Was it the drugs? Did our relationship influence the drug use or was it always there?
4. How to move forward? I have no attention span or ability to concentrate or energy or motivation.

I am just exhausted. Spiritually, mentally, physically.

Today I was mad, but for the past few weeks I have been doing a lot of crying. I wish I had some sort of escape. I guess the reality of it is hitting home. I dont know how some people just move forward with their lives. What makes me unhealthy and emotionally attached to it all.

Acute BD, I yelled, tried to rationalize and persuade. Blamed myself a lot. Blamed him.

Subacute BD, I started thinking like a walkaway. Thinking I could meet someone else. Fantasized. Procrastinated on the legal process.

Post BD, I guess I'm dealing with reality right now. Still roller coastering emotionally.

I know the answer is to appreciate what we have, and I do...
I am grateful for my son and for our relationship. I am grateful that there is no custody battle. I am grateful that ex is not outwardly nasty or aggressive. He just wants to be left alone. And I stopped engaging a long time ago. I am grateful that I have security. Maybe its that Im still coming to terms that life is not always fair.

I know I am rehashing and cycling, but sometimes it helps to write it out.


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Originally Posted By: Ginger1
Me, you, a night this summer. What do you say?
Girls, you both need to get away. Come see me! wink



"Don't look back, you aren't going that way"
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Originally Posted By: SunnyB
Originally Posted By: Ginger1
Me, you, a night this summer. What do you say?
Girls, you both need to get away. Come see me! wink


I'm down! smile


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I had been the one that had my ex served the divorce papers. I was advised by my attorneys to do so.

I remember getting the phone call from the guy that served him, and crying to know that it was done. I felt like I had betrayed my ex. I was really wrong about this. It was humiliating. And as it turned out, going through lawyers instead of mediating was a really big and expensive mistake and choice I made.

At the time, I was emotionally charged and ultra paranoid. I had so much fear. I did not trust my ex. He was a villain in my eyes. I did not feel like I could mediate. I felt like he was hiding something. And he was. Just not what I thought.

Through this legal process, he was not dishonest. He handed in all the papers as he should have. He did not harass me, or bully me or threaten me in any way. I think I could have been more the bully if I had voiced to him the things that I was thinking, and thinking about doing. Or if I had a different lawyer.

I disliked my lawyer because they were not cut throat, but in reality, its an arrangement that is not too unfair to either of us. I waived alimony. I did not go after his retirement funds or stock options, and I did not go after the missing money. I did not humiliate him with drug testing.
Right now, I am ok with that and kind of happy with the arrangement. But there were many times my mind went there. Out of anger, rightousness, entitlement, feeling like a victim, like someone who had no control, vengefullness...I don't know.

During our marriage, he was not honest about money. He had incurred secret debt. He had spending habits that were really scary and affected us as a family. He does not see that, because he feels it was his money and he could do what he liked with it. I had sensed this secrecy, I think our whole relationship and reacted with mistrust and resentment and it became a "mine is mine mentality" which was awful.

He is the one that left. At a time, I was my lowest. He was picking fights, or doing things that he knew I would fight and complain about so that he could feel justified with me as a villain.

Prior to that, I was not the best wife. I was cynical and negative and lazy. I did not give enough. I definatly took our relationship for granted.

I was 100% loyal though and would never have left him. (unless he cheated) I thought that was enough for him, because it was what was enough for me in a marriage. But it wasnt. Maybe he is right in this.

I will end up seeking out another relationship. I want to share life with a partner and to have my own family unit. But I feel deeply saddened that it cannot be my ex.

Anyway, I am about to sign my divorce decree. It feels horrible. I still love my husband..I guess unconditionally. I am mad at him. But I still love him. I feel bad that ending the marriage was an option for him.

I wonder if he will go out and celebrate with his friends tonight or if he will feel as bad as I do.


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"Its been almost 2 weeks since I realized what the core problem was. It was only through financial disclosure that I figured it out." I had a similar experience a month ago. The first day I read the factual info I was in shock. The second day I had to go through things in mega-detail for my lawyer and I was more shocked. And shocked I was still capable of feeling shocked.

Some facts were just obvious facts. Big cash withdrawals. A secret parallel life with OW. Huge debt for someone living for free in a family apartment in London & for free with OW. Evidence of fraud and lies and something going on needing big dollops of cash. Like your H, my STBXH works in the City, uk version of Wall St...You said "I figured it out"...actually you made a best-guess based on the information you have which is necessary but slightly different. Do you KNOW it is drugs? Or is that just the most likely explanation? I struggled to separate FACTS (x amount withdrawn from x place on x date) from INFERENCES (which means y). What do I know factually and which bits of that matter? And why?

Some things matter legally...if he is hiding money, evidence of fraud, his financial links with OW, the pattern of lies suggesting he is more likely to be lying than not.

Some things matter emotionally...the shock and scale of the lies, how it makes me feel about him, about me and about our past marriage. Some things in our sitch are very different. We have no children. I have little doubt that my STBXH is in full party MLC. I know that my H loved me deeply and cared about our marriage. That we were a team...until he resigned from it. But I also know that my beloved H always lied, I just didn't think he lied to me. I saw him lie to other people over the years...family, work, friends. When he lied it was usually because a) it was easier to say yes than no b) he didn't want to hurt someone else's feelings and deal with that or c) he felt ashamed of something he felt or had failed to do.

I can deal with the legal/practical realities. The emotional second-guessing of our marriage and who he was/is is much harder for me. Trusting someone for 20 years and having no big reasons to doubt them (but maybe I didn't look hard enough?) and then having to shift to a point where your starting place is assuming lies. I felt/feel sometimes as if everything I thought was true maybe wasn't, and that's a tough spot to stand. Like you, I love my husband still - or the core person I thought he was - and like you I probably took our love for granted.

Here is where I try to reach for....accepting that I don't know what broke him only that he is broken. That both current reality and my memory of past reality are mine to define and both as real as each other. It isn't an either/or. That I love my H and my STBXH thinks D is the only option for him. That D keeps me financially safer right now even if it breaks my heart. That I don't know if I will ever know the truth behind the lies, or what will happen to him, or me. But I do know that my M, and my life with my H, brought me many blessings. Much as I hate where I am now, I am still grateful for those blessings. And sad they are gone.

In a few weeks when our D is finalised, I don't know if my H will celebrate or not. I will have mixed emotions like you and it is most likely that your H does too. None of this is either/or.


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Thank you for posting treasur

There is often a part of me that thinks, "hey. Maybe I am creating this drug addiction issue because I needed an answer, or did not want to accept that perhaps I was an abusive wife like he said, or feel more comfortable with drug addiction then an an affair partner because I can rationalize it as a disease ".

The only factual proof I would have was a drug test or admittal.

Circumstantially, .when looked at on there own they don't mean anything, but together.....
1. Missing money from ATMs in bad and out of the way neighborhoods for 800 dollars weekly. Going back a minimum of 3 years.
2. Daily cash withdrawals of 100 dollars minimal.
3. Withdrew enormous amounts out of his IRA to pay off credit card debt which made no sense. Credit cards were just being paid by minimums. Nothing outrageous on them.
3. Sleeping late and through alarm clocks. (Till mid to late afternoons)
4. Lots of secret errands that made no sense. (Like he would leave to go somewhere during a snow storm)
5. Refused a drug test, and agreed to supervised overnights.
6. Admitted to problem with alcohol and depression.
7. Found cc statements with high monthly bills to liquor stores going on a minimum of 5 years. He drank in secret and at night when I was sleeping.
8. Awake all night.
9. What I thought were IBS issues, but finding they also are a sign of withdrawals. Lots of Imodium. Which I recently discovered is used for withdrawals.
10. Was warned way before I was married and I didn't believe that person. I imagined an addict as someone that was very skinny and intoxicated, and unable to keep a job. I thought the person telling me heard the info from someone jealous. I thought maybe they exaggerated some recreational or experimental use in the past.
11. Looking back, He had an incredible wealth of knowledge about drugs. I thought he had an amazing memory from a pharmacology class he took in college...but drug pharmacology had nothing to do with his major, so why take it?


Knowing for sure would have affected me legally. I chose not to pursue. But if he had been hiding money with the intention of leaving me, then I would have pursued. I gambled on this.

It's also important to know to protect my son. he is very high functioning now. But I am still not sure what to do other then the supervised overnights. I can demand testing anytime, if I see anything suspicious. But I dont. He comes across as so damn polite and professional and alert. It's now in decree, that he is not allowed to use illicit substances when with son. If I do have to take him to court it's also in decree that he will be responsible for legal fees if he is not following decree. I just don't know what to do regarding this.

Emotionally, it's been hard. Regardless of whether there was drug issues he was living a double life regarding money. He was in places, he never told me about for years. We have been separated for over 2 years, but this info was recent and something I am coming to terms with. When I first found out I couldn't get out of bed. People all thought I should be over it and moving on, but it hit me hard emotionally

(It is good you are discovering this early on)

He was not a liar like your ex. But a liar in a different way. But I always knew he was someone that didn't voluntarily give information. He lived a separate life. And he was an evader of direct questions. I would have to know what to ask to get a straight answer and even then, I would have to be knowledgeable of the ways that he deflected or curtailed around it.

I don't know what it would be like to be in a relationship with someone that was open and shared his life, and feelings with me. I view all men to be like my ex. A guy that wants to talk and share would seem very weird and maybe even unmasculine to me. I have mixed feelings about dating. Excited but also not sure if I am ready or have the time to commit to someone. Trusting someone again is scary too. I don't trust my judgement in knowing a good and honest partner. What if next time around, he is a secret pedophile? Or sex addict?

When we trust in a partner we risk our lives and children's lives. Choosing a partner wisely is a big responsibility.


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Hi juju. I think it sounds as if your priority is your son's safety and that he meets the financial terms of your decree. For the second, it doesn't matter if he is spending his money on unicorns - it's his life - as long as he meets his payments to you right? For your son, it sounds as if you don't assume but keep a wise eye open and jump into action at the first bit of concrete evidence.

My situation is a bit different. My husband was open and sharing with me...until he stopped and then ran off to MLC world. Good thing about that is I know what being in a trusting team feels like. Bad thing is that it makes who he is now even more shocking and tough to adjust too! Actually I think being open is very sexy because it is about being confident in who you are.

Not all men are the same. Not all people are the same. And it makes sense that trust is an issue after life gives us a kicking. I guess that is part of our own DB efforts to be a better version of us? The starting point has to be about trusting our own judgement. How do you think you can start building confidence in yours now? I suppose trust has two halves...your ability to trust wisely and what other people do to show you they are trustworthy. Don't rush to date...you'll know when you're ready and you can take it slow.


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Thanks treasur

I have been reading your thread, and you are doing amazing despite such a drastic change in your ex. You seem to have acted wisely, and swiftly and you are going to come out of this OK. It's sad though. It's a huge loss. An elective death by your spouse.

I am truly under the opinion that if our spouses are capable of doing this once, whether in the name of depression or MLC they will do it again. There is something in them that just makes it ok for them to treat some one they were very close to in this way. Their perspective, the way they view life and relationships. It's just different. It's like trying to understand the opposite political party. It's two different brains acting and believing differently. I think we are at odds with ourselves when we are trying to appeal to them to come back. And that's why it often doesn't work.

You are right though. My ex and I never had a true partnership. He told me "nothing will change for you" when he left and he was right except I ended up with more money and more help with son. It took my son a week to even know his dad was gone. I am told by other people who saw what our relationship was like, how wonderful it will feel being in a real relationship with someone. I want to experience that with someone truly vested.


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So what I need help and advice on is how to cope with the feeling of powerlessness.

I am going to vent now.

I have been angry for so long, but what it's really stems from is the feeling of powerlessness. My ex was not treating me the way a partner should prior to BD. I reacted with anger. My ex left us in a really bad way and once again I responded with intense feelings of anger.

Now my divorce papers are signed and I am really angry at my lawyers and at myself for not mediating to avoid lawyers and at my ex for not being forthcoming and for all his secrecy which made me feel like I needed a lawyer to protect me.

My bill is extremely high considering we had no custody battle, I had a child support settlement already in place, and we had no assets. The lawyers basically billed me for strategizing amongst themselves that it was not worth the legal funds for me to pursue alimony or financial discovery. They are probably right about that because their fees are so high. But during my paid for consultation, of course they talked about how they would uncover the unexplained Cash withdrawals, and how I needed an advocate. Hell they sat on my ex's bank statements and then gave it to me to go through when I expressed to them how uncomfortable I was waiving disclosure. 4 days before our meeting in court! That's when I discovered all that missing money.

I didn't know what I didn't know back then. And now am realizing how talented this firm was at billing and how they really didn't try to advocate for me. I had to look up laws and Insist on any little provision that would benefit me because either they didn't know or didn't care.

My education was just as long and difficult as their education was, yet one lawyer does not know her stuff and strategizes with the partner and I get double billed. Two lawyers at in a meeting with me and I was billed over 900.00 for the hour. A phone conference for the 3 of us which was under ten minutes and they each billed me for 30 minutes. Lots of other questionable stuff as well. I was given the less expensive lawyer after being told it would save me money. But the less expensive lawyer (400/hour) needed reviews and edits from the more expensive lawyer so I was billed for that. I am also seeing that the less expensive lawyer did everything herself. And am going to question why a secretary or paralegal did not do anything.

I think I am right. But I am not sure what the monetary claim should be.

I read on line all this sentiment from attorneys justifying the way they bill and they are so frigen arrogant. There's so many of them out there, I don't know why they have this power.

I am most likely going to arbitrate but am obviously stressed about it. Has any one here had to do that?

I want to recommend a site for woman undergoing this process to go to by a consumer rights attorney named Karen winner. She wrote a book called Divorced from Justice, which seems to describe what I have been going through. (I think I can mention it here as it does not in any way compete with divorce busters as it calls for advocacy for misrepresented women). I wish I was in the mind set to have researched better before I went throught all this. She talks about how middle class women are put at a huge disadvantage regarding the legal system and divorce. And how vulnerable we are to predator attorneys.

Anyway, I just want to put this all past me so I can move forward.

I am scared about meeting up with the attorneys to discuss billing because they are sleazy and are going to deny, and gaslight, and twist things around. But I am also angry because they have done it in a way that is just sneaky and I don't even know what to ask for.

I am fearful about having to go up against attorneys in arbitration if they don't amend the bill (which I doubt they will to the extent I Want them to)

It doesn't make sense for me to be fearful. I have nothing to lose. Arbitration is free. My time is worth very minimum compared to theirs. Any complaints I file can make things difficult for them but only if others complain too (in my state there is no way to look up if other people complained about them). There is a technical error in the retainer that would be to my advantage as I never signed anything accepting the cheaper lawyer and it specifically says in the retainer that any changes made, I would need to sign.

Even so, I hate the conflict and anxiety, and inability to out closure on all of this.

Anybody out there have a similar situation?


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Hi Juju,

I'm sorry you are having a difficult time and I understand the anger. I would be angry too! Unfortunately or fortunately, I have no experience with attorneys as I handled it all myself.

Sending you a hug. Hang in there!



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Juju - I spent some time and hard emotional work on powerlessness last year. And fear which is really the root of it. At the time, I felt attacked from all sides by the huge impact of things completely outside my control...the financial & legal impact of not having a power of attorney for my mother with dementia, my H's endless trickle shocks of WTF, surgery for cancer and divorce papers dropping through the letterbox. Everything felt unmanageable and destructive.

Here's where my thoughts took me, if it helps. First of all, as humans we comfort ourselves by living as if we know for sure that B follows A. The truth is none of us know what will happen next but it is hard to live with the honesty of uncertainty, even though it's the truth. As a reformed fixer too, it is really uncomfortable for me to see how little control I have over things that have such a big impact on my life. Then I read a quote, something along the lines of 'If a problem doesn't have a solution you can make, it isn't a problem, just a truth that needs to be accepted'.

So then I set myself three challenges. One was to be really honest about my fears. Hard to do but it gave me a sort of fear priority list, a top two or three. The other was to be really tough-minded about what I could do particularly in those situations where it felt like every option was a lousy one. Even if it was small or far from perfect. The third was to think what would make me FEEL more powerful, even when my choices were limited.

For me, that was the game changer. It might be different for you, but for me, my power was about choosing to not let the situation drive me away from who I am and the reality of my own history. I can't stop my H creating an expensive legal mess through his own choices, but I can choose to be pragmatic about it and give myself time to think before I act. I can't change that I was left with the rubble of 20 years of our life, and 50 years of my parents, while everyone else 'ran away', but I can choose how I invest time and energy in it. So, for instance, I decided to leave our old house while it was still up for sale and rent a new place by the sea. Not the smartest financial choice, and I'd assumed at first I couldn't, but staying in the old house was killing me mentally...I can't tell you how liberating it was to make that choice for myself.

It is a natural human reaction to trauma that you want to run, for this to be over with. You said two things that struck me; "I don't even know what to ask for." and "It doesn't make sense for me to be fearful." That's probably the key...take a deep breath and muse on what you need and want, and what the fear is really about.

Hope that helps xxx


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I am very sorry (and pisssed) you are going through this. My lawyer ripped me off too. Told me I wouldn't have to go above the 5k retainer and boy she was wrong. And we had the most straightforward D. She kept wording stuff incorrectly in correspondences and she kept charging me to do it over again. Right before the D I apparently owed her $1800. I told her I was paying for her shabby work. She said she wouldn't show up at court, and I told her fine. I went to court all alone (8 years ago yesterday) and that was that, we were divorced.

She sent me bills for years, I finally moved and she never got my new address. Nor did she ever put me in collections because I think she knows she is a sheister. I pass by her office everyday to drop D9 off and scowl at it, haha.

So, you are in a tricky situation as you are not done yet, but I would be like, "hey, you aren't going to see your money" Most know they are crooked and don't go after you.

Good luck and I am sorry this has been so bumpy.

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Ginger, this firm is brilliant at billing people but not the best at thinking critically to advocate for someone.

I am forced to pay the bills within 41 days. Right now my papers are signed and completed. They have not submitted them to the court. I notice that they time things out...visits with court, emailing me paper work very late etc to ensure that the client pays the bills.


I think I am going to pay them and then either take them to arbitration, or perhaps seek consultation with a consumer advocate lawyer. Once you arbitrate, you cannot claim malpractice. But I can still argue legal bills.

It's not a huge amount in the scheme of things (6 grand over the 10,000 retainor fee so far and more to come) although a lot for me and a lot considering my case was ptobably as simple as yours. but there should be protection against this for other people who are vulnerable during this time.


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Originally Posted By: Treasur
Juju - I spent some time and hard emotional work on powerlessness last year. And fear which is really the root of it. At the time, I felt attacked from all sides by the huge impact of things completely outside my control...the financial & legal impact of not having a power of attorney for my mother with dementia, my H's endless trickle shocks of WTF, surgery for cancer and divorce papers dropping through the letterbox. Everything felt unmanageable and destructive.

Here's where my thoughts took me, if it helps. First of all, as humans we comfort ourselves by living as if we know for sure that B follows A. The truth is none of us know what will happen next but it is hard to live with the honesty of uncertainty, even though it's the truth. As a reformed fixer too, it is really uncomfortable for me to see how little control I have over things that have such a big impact on my life. Then I read a quote, something along the lines of 'If a problem doesn't have a solution you can make, it isn't a problem, just a truth that needs to be accepted'.

So then I set myself three challenges. One was to be really honest about my fears. Hard to do but it gave me a sort of fear priority list, a top two or three. The other was to be really tough-minded about what I could do particularly in those situations where it felt like every option was a lousy one. Even if it was small or far from perfect. The third was to think what would make me FEEL more powerful, even when my choices were limited.

For me, that was the game changer. It might be different for you, but for me, my power was about choosing to not let the situation drive me away from who I am and the reality of my own history. I can't stop my H creating an expensive legal mess through his own choices, but I can choose to be pragmatic about it and give myself time to think before I act. I can't change that I was left with the rubble of 20 years of our life, and 50 years of my parents, while everyone else 'ran away', but I can choose how I invest time and energy in it. So, for instance, I decided to leave our old house while it was still up for sale and rent a new place by the sea. Not the smartest financial choice, and I'd assumed at first I couldn't, but staying in the old house was killing me mentally...I can't tell you how liberating it was to make that choice for myself.

It is a natural human reaction to trauma that you want to run, for this to be over with. You said two things that struck me; "I don't even know what to ask for." and "It doesn't make sense for me to be fearful." That's probably the key...take a deep breath and muse on what you need and want, and what the fear is really about.

Hope that helps xxx


Thank you treasure.

I am trying to figure out What the fear is really about. Does any one have any ideas? I will bring it up to my counselor tomorrow.

My anxiety over how my lawyers have billed me has me waking up in the middle of the night and in early morning. I get really upset and think horrible thoughts about myself. I feel really traumatized. Like I see her name on emails and my heart will race and I get a sickening feeling in my gut.

I don't understand why I am taking this so badly. I understand logically that there are worse things in life. People lose children. People get afflicted with horrible diseases. I have patients that made similar errors when trusting certain surgeons only to later need revisions. It is hard to make the right choices when you do not know the ins and outs of the system.

In reality, they probably will end up ripping me off about 8 grand. A standard divorce here would cost about 10 grand for something simple like mine if you don't mediate.

Is 8 grand that much to work me up and make me feel miserable?


Now the things I can do...

First I realize have to pay everything in full or they won't mail out the decrees to the court house. I have a copy of 1 of the decrees. But I think ex's lawyer would have to redo them??

Would ex's lawyer help? Since he really wants the divorce to occur? I don't know.

Confused about this.

These seem to be my options.

1. Bring forth my concerns with attorney and they will probably take off a max of 2 grand. They will be really mad and will deny or pretend i dont have a case when I show them the technicality in the retainer. I would have to do this after they submit to the court.

This is not enough for me. Considering the technical mistake they made in the retainor that might legally make them take about 8 grand off. (Who knows)

I can insist on 5 grand taken off and see what they say.

2. Go to arbitration. This does not hurt me at all. It makes it so that i cannot go after them for malpractice though. It will be unpleasant. But I have nothing to lose. It costs me nothing. The attorneys might even just reimburse so they don't have to waste their time reviewing and then going through with it when there's a chance they will lose.

3. Speak with a consumer rights attorney. I am really mad about how they took advantage (there were times when I was being billed at 900 dollars an hour because the 400 dollar an hour lawyer was consulting with the 500 dollar an hour attorney. Or because they both talked to me on the telephone or sat in on a meeting with me. I was billed on 1 incident for faxing 15 minutes at a rate of 400 dollars per hour) to me this is gross and I want an example set. I dont want this to happen to other peopke that are vulnerable.

I would never take advantage of people this way so I didn't know what to look for. I usually Under bill and will work through breaks and lunch to give patients that need a little more extra.

Who knows. Maybe in my past life I screwed over a lot of people.


Any advice? Any body deal with attorneys?


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I have a hard time coping with loss as well. I stayed in a truly abusive relationship in college that I was miserable in because breaking up would feel like too much of a loss. I remember actually wishing I could find out he was cheating so it would give me the power to leave (he was)

With my ex, he was not abusive but I don't believe he was the right match for me. I did not have much experience with men, and once I bonded I never wanted to lose him no matter how difficult of a time we had getting along. He was family to me. He wasn't abusive, but he was leading a secret life and not truly a partner..perhaos because of drugs.

So I do think i understand how hard it is for you to deal with loss. And even being able to have that power to end something that is not good for you despite the loss.


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(My above post was supposed to go on gingers thread. That's why it doesn't make sense!)


On a side note, I went to an IC and we talked about the situation. I decided that to put the anxiety behind me, I will pay the bills so the attorney will send out my paperwork and then discuss and arbitrate within the BAR. I have plenty of time to prepare for that, and by paying the bills I will be in control and have nothing to lose. As opposed to having someone come after me for money.

She validated me by saying that I felt victimized greatly by ex who Who I had every right to trust and was lying about money and that now I am feeling victimized by my lawyers who were supposed to be my advocates, and rightfully so.

She did say I have to stop obsessing, by giving my self only 30 minutes a day tro think about the topic. That way, I am not ignoring it, but consummed by it. I have to train myself to be able to push those thoughts away and focus on something else when they enter my mind.

I feel better and more productive already.


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So in life I know how the wheels can turn. How one year someone might be getting promotions, and then the next year they are fired. I know this. But I am feeling kind of hopeless about my situation.

I spoke to my counselor about this and she suggested that each day I reflect on 3 things I am happy for. These 3 things tend to be the same. 1. The health of me and my son 2. That I have son and for the most part, have most of custody 3. I have a profession and job that I like.

But at the same time, I am having trouble not comparing my life to others that have things so much easier. My SIL who has a beautiful home, loyal husband, organization. They have 2 play rooms for their children! And I am crammed in with living with my parents. I was at a party of theirs today and while I am so happy for them, I also felt sad for my son and I. There were all these couples there, that were pregnant with their 2nd children. The dads were involved and helping to watch the little ones. They were all building futures together. And I compare myself to these other women. To see, what is it about me that left me in this position. Some of them are horrible naggers, one of them is unfaithful. They are not extremely beautiful, successful fit, wealthy, or even educated women. Yet they have so much more. And here I am a homeless, single mother. I feel frustrated because I always did the right thing. Good grades, a career and education before getting married or having a child, Once married I saved, was loyal, and put my family before myself at all times.

I am not sure about the realities of starting a life with another person. I wonder why would someone want to commit or form a partnership or union with me when we each have own families to take care of. Why would another man invest in me? Financially he would lose. The father of my child who I spent my entire youth with left. Would there seriously be other men our there looking to commit? I think many men my age like relationships but on terms that include separate residences, finances, and an easy way out. So that the moment things get real they can bail. Do we miss out on something, when people and relationships are disposable?

I feel like I made a bad choice in a partner. He was so smart but really ended up being a horrible provider for us. He earned so much more then many of these couples at this party. We could have had a home for my son. Organization for my son. Play dates for my son, which he so desperately craves. He is just a big F up. or a greedy and selfish man and I really wish I had recognized this earlier. I do not know why he bothered to get married and have a family.


Now I know how bratty and entitled I am coming across in this post. But I am going to post it anyway. My ex has been able to walk away and have an easy life. He can convince himself that he is a great dad because he pays child support and sees his son every other weekend (and just recently 2 hours once a week) and meanwhile I am not allowed to move somewhere that I can actually afford. I know too that life is not fair, and it can get a lot worse. But it also can and should be better.

Maybe the cynics in life are actually the optimists or idealists, because they see the potential for the way things should be and get down when they are not. And those at peace, are just accepting of some pretty crazy and illogical BS.


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Ah, juju, the lure of 'FB' like assumptions...the one thing we learn here is that real life is rarely as it looks from the outside-in. You have no idea of the reality of other people's Ms or lives or even if your H has a life that feels 'easy' to him. You can't know.

Some of your post is about 'easiness' of life. Some about regret or blaming yourself. Some about the feeling of unfairness, that being 'good' didn't give you the outcome you thought it would and that you think it won't in future either. Part of the process of acceptance seems to be about wrestling with some of this stuff too, doesn't it, even though we initially think it's about accepting the sitch? With our own beliefs and values. Forgiving ourselves just as we tussle with forgiving our spouses.

What would make life feel easier, juju? What would make you feel like you are living a juju life that others would wish they had too? How can you forgive yourself for the things you wish you had done differently? Being human and all that...part of the process, part of making peace with ourselves I guess.


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Money or a more affordable area to live would make my life easier!!!

Ive come to terms with the no chance of reconciliation with ex a while ago. And im at peace with that. (Its a huge place to be though and I recognize that when i read the struggles of many posters on new comers)

Truth is, i need to move forward and for some reason i am stuck. I have my resume all prepared and some 2nd job opportunities, but im scared. I have a profile all ready written in my mind for online dating, but im scared.

I keep preparing but not executing because i dont feel prepared enough. And i have to just plung into that pool already.


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So i have been talking to a walkaway wife. And the way they think about their ex's and about life in general shows me that the LBS really has no choice but to detach and move forward.

This woman talks about how she no longer loves her ex. He is still trying to get back with her. She has so much anger for him. And he annoys her so much. She really really just finds him annoying. But The way she is with the other moms, and her new boyfriend, and even the teachers is just so unbelievably selfish i feel like im watching a movie with her as this crazy caricature in which the viewers think..."this is ridiculous. People arent really that bad"

The only way her ex would win her back is if he became a bit more successful and was seriously interested in another woman (not just a fling). But why would you want someone back that only wants you at your best?

I really think that the WS did not just have this crazy crises... I think they were probably pretty selfish or self absorbed to begin with, and once they no longer were benefiting from the relationship, or things were no longer easy for them they left and made a excuse, that justified doing so. Thats the reason they usually leave after LBS went through some sort of crises (sickness, miscarriage, death or illness)

They were and are fair weather friends it just took some bad weather for us to fund out.


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My son and I have a really wonderful relationship. For the most part he is ok with our divorce. In the beginning, the transitions were difficult for him. But other then that he is actually fine.

I think its because his father was not around much before he left, so there really was not this huge difference for him when he actually did leave. He also gets tons of attention from my parents as well.

A while ago, I asked him if he was upset and he said "no because now when I go to grandmas, dad is there too and i get to see him"

He was also asking me if I could find a new daddy so that he could have a daddy he could live with. He said that he would let this daddy kiss him but only when hes not a stranger anymore.

Last night he was telling me that he thinks daddy still loves me a little but just didnt want to be married to me. He was telling me how badly he wanted a brother and my heart was breaking. I told him I could not because there was no daddy. And then he asked why I did not make a brother for him before his daddy split (I dont know where he heard the word "split" from). I just told him I would have liked a brother or sister but we could not. And then he got upset and was saying "I just hate that daddy made such a stupid choice"

So I just told him that this is all adult stuff and all he has to know is that both his mommy and daddy love him.

I am devastated because I wanted another child so badly. I signed up for a life with ex and he just wasted my time.

I really hate him in a true repulsion sort of way, and do not think I will ever forgive him. Most of the time, i am even repulsed my his mother as well.

In fact, I hate most of the walkaways I read about. I long to read stories about LBS moving on happier and walkaways filled with depression and regret. I truly want them to suffer.


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Quote:
He was also asking me if I could find a new daddy so that he could have a daddy he could live with. He said that he would let this daddy kiss him but only when hes not a stranger anymore.


Aww, this breaks my heart. What a sweet boy you have.

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JuJU,

One of the most beautiful things that has come out of this hell for the both of us is the unique loving relationships we have with our kiddos. The relationship we have is so very different form others, it's hard to explain to anyone not in our position. Raising a single child alone form birth forms a very unique bond and it is such a gift.
I hear you on the mourning of another child. It's probably one of the things I really have a hard time forgiving my ex for. My daughter would have made the bestest big sister ever! She still wants me to have another kid. She tells me I could still have one without a daddy. I told her mommy cannot financially afford one with out a daddy. Which is true.

Your son is soooooo fortunate to have you. Even though his dad is who he is, he has you and he knows it. And when you are ready to bring another guy into your lives, you can tell he will be beyond happy for you and beyond happy for himself.

All good things are coming.

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Originally Posted By: JujuB

I really think that the WS did not just have this crazy crises... I think they were probably pretty selfish or self absorbed to begin with, and once they no longer were benefiting from the relationship, or things were no longer easy for them they left and made a excuse, that justified doing so.


Yes, I think this is definitely the case with me. Looking back, I can recognise that selfish, self absorbed streak my STBXH had, right rom the very beginning.

Originally Posted By: JujuB

Thats the reason they usually leave after LBS went through some sort of crises (sickness, miscarriage, death or illness)


And that's what happened to me, I became ill. Three years later, in 2000, he started on the path that would lead to S (that took five years in all, before S. Five years of increasingly disrespectful behaviour).

Anyway...

Originally Posted By: JujuB

They were and are fair weather friends it just took some bad weather for us to fund out.


That's how I feel about it all as well...


Me: 48, XH: 42
T: 18 years, M: 15 years

EA/PA 1: 6/2012
EA/PA 2: from autumn 2012-present

BD: 5/2013
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Thank you KML and GInger

My son is awesome. I am so lucky to be his mother. We were driving around the other day and he saw those outdoor tree house play areas on sale in a lot and he was talking about how much he would love to have one. And i agreed and told him how much I wish i could buy one for him. And how much I wish I could afford a house for him and I to live in...One with secret passageways. and of course he agreed. But then he went and told me, "Its ok mom. We have a happy life together anyway".

I do not know what things would have been like had my ex not left. But right now, I have the best relationship with my son. And I would never want to trade our relationship for any thing. I have always put him first and always will.


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Focus, there is just so much that the walkaways have in common. Sometimes it is so scary, how when I read another poster's situation on the forums, I can relate so well to what they are going through. Because the experiences are just so identical in so many ways. Is it just human nature, a unnatural and stressful society that is just not conducive to family life and marriage, or just a lot of f'd up people that marry other people on totally different wave lengths?

Marriages work when you get two people that are just plainly committed regardless of unhappy times. The problem is you cant identify who the truly committed are until they have been put to the chance. The 50% of people that stay married just got lucky in that they married someone like. I think there are a lot of people out there with addiction issues and they do some pretty bad damage as well. I knew My ex was an addictive personality type. Cigarettes, Food. I never thought it could be an indicator of what ended up happening though. In the future that's what I am going to be weary of.


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So i need to make some changes to my life. It is a Saturday night, and I have no plans. Next week, I am going to put out an Online Dating profile. This way I will have something to look forward to, a reason to dress up and go out. I have to just do.

I sent out my resume last week for a second job. I got an immediate call back and went on an interview and was offered the job. It seems like a nice place to work, but i realized this weekend that I need a second job with more flexibility so I could accommodate my son's schedule better. I think I did well at this interview, because I have another job already. I do not need this job. And I have other options.

I have a lot of good things in my life
1. I have been offered jobs without trying. When I do send out my resume, I am pretty confident that I will get hired. I have great references, do well at my field, and have built up a nice back ground.

2. My son is doing great. I have taken him to some more specialists who completely disagree with the autism diagnosis. They all agree its adhd. Regardless, of the diagnosis as I posted above, son and I have a great relationship. And while he is challenging, he is just a great kid. Extremely bright in every single area, and funny, and energetic. He just gets into a lot of trouble. But not in that mean kid sort of way.

3. I have a really great family and I don't have to worry about struggling. I have choices because of this.

4. I think that once I put out my dating profile, I will do ok. Just like with the jobs. I will have choices. And that's because I do not really feel like I am desperate. Quite frankly, I could take or leave having a relationship. I am not dying for one right now, as I have not had great experiences with them. And i know that actually makes me more desirable to others. I am getting curious though and have been thinking up my profile.

I think I actually have a lot going for me, its just that I am my own worst enemy. I get bogged down with the obsessing and catastrophising, and I am missing out on life by continuing to do so!


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Re: online dating:

Take your time
It's seems rude, but don't reply to people you aren't interested in. I tried to very politely say I wasn't interested and encountered some very angry responses. Better to not say anything and let them think your profile just isn't active.

Don't start a relationship online - if after a few chats you're interested in meeting, arrange a short coffee date in a public place. A) that establishes that he's not catfishing you and less likely to be married. Also you can develop feelings in a lengthy online relationship and then find out there's no chemistry when you meet. Better to find out early.

Don't introduce your son to your dates. Just don't. It takes AT LEAST 6 months, maybe a year, before you can have a pretty good idea if this is likely to work out long term. Your son doesn't need to go through dating disappointments with you.

Read between the lines of their profiles. Get a girlfriends input - she may see red flags you're missing.

All that being said - I've actually had good luck with online dating. Just take your time.

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I'm loving your outlook and how you see so many positives smile

Originally Posted By: JujuB
Marriages work when you get two people that are just plainly committed regardless of unhappy times. The problem is you cant identify who the truly committed are until they have been put to the chance. The 50% of people that stay married just got lucky in that they married someone like. I think there are a lot of people out there with addiction issues and they do some pretty bad damage as well. I knew My ex was an addictive personality type. Cigarettes, Food. I never thought it could be an indicator of what ended up happening though. In the future that's what I am going to be weary of.


And I totally agree with this!

Looking back, I remember also making a *thinking* choice when it came to my H and M. I mean, he came from a very stable background, and was very stable himself. I didn't see any red flags. He certainly lived life full on, but it was in a very life affirming and positive way.

I still don't understand what happened. Intellectually, yes, perhaps...I can get my head round it. But emotionally? I still feel in the dark.

No matter, it is what it is, and now and the future is where I need to be focusing my energies.

Re the dating, it sounds like a great idea. It *really* boosted my self esteem. Just getting ready, feeling good about how I felt in my own skin and looked as well, going out, and having a nice few hours with someone.

Now, with some of the dates I went on, there was an instant 'no chemistry' thing, but the important thing was how I felt in myself, for myself. And from that perspective it was a really positive experience.

What a journey we're on...

smile


Me: 48, XH: 42
T: 18 years, M: 15 years

EA/PA 1: 6/2012
EA/PA 2: from autumn 2012-present

BD: 5/2013
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Awesome list of things to be thankful for, JujuB! I can relate to the I'm my own worst enemy type thinking, it [censored], resist it. Keep thinking positive because that type of positivity is super attractive to most people. It's a good mindset to be in


Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
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Ugh... i was feeling bad for my ex. Hes gaining a lot of weight, has this weird demeanor now..like someone that you woke up early in the morning, but is trying to sound like hes alert and awake. He doesnt look happy.

But then today i was going through my son's dresser to throw out clothes that no longer fit him and i found these oversized t shirts from expensive concerts and football games that ex was bringing back for son right around BD.

As if a t shirt from Rush, for a 4 year old would make up for an emotionally and financially neglectful dad!

It gave me a flashback. That motherf er was spending a ton of money while we were living with his in laws and he wasnt giving me child support. And then when he had to start paying he had the nerve to be resentful of it. (He still has that nerve)
I still wonder about the expensive tapas restaurant he went to in the city 1 week after my surgery while pregnant. I dont wonder about with who, just the how the hell does someone not care about their pregnant wife and son?

I get a lot of these "flashbacks" based on how he treated us back then. And then I stew in anger.

Any tricks to not being consummed with rhose angry times or is it just a time thing?

I know the answer is to move forward. Make the best life i can for myself and appreciate the moments.

I wonder what it will be like to be in a relationship with an actual man.

I need to get myself out there, but still havent yet.


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So a counselor I am seeing advised me that when I get really mad at something that happened, to allot myself 30 minutes to vent/research/obsess over. But if Im in a place where I cant do that, I need to find a way to get it out of my head. I am consciously aware of this challenge and am really going to try.

My recent trigger was remembering about my trip to the ER for kidney stones in the middle of the night. I was in agony. Worse pain then child birth. This was pre BD, but during a time when my ex was just being really really nasty and detached.

Anyway, when we went to the ER, it was pretty empty. They had a man transport me to get a CT. I remember being scared because there was absolutely no one else around and I was in a robe and feeling really vulnerable. The CT machine was in an area of the building that was completely empty and dark. And I was transported to another male technician. And I was a bit out of it because of the pain. (He did not do anything wrong and everything was fine. The entire staff was great). But here's the thing. My ex could have come with with me and he did not. He disappeared. I could tell then how little concern he had for me.

If that was my daughter, and she was in a position like that I would have made sure I was with her.

I really wish that I was the one that left him.

This hurts me still and I dont know why. Of course the person you are married to should feel concern about their wife's safety. He was not. And i am angry about that. But anger does not make sense as an emotion to feel that way. A smart emotion would be "good, now i have an opportunity to find someone that is capable of feeling something for someone that is tied to them"

And I think about how nice it would be to actually have a partner that genuinely worries and cares for my well being.

I know from reading all the stories on here, that most of you have experienced something similar and know the sting.


So I am going to include something positive in this post as well...

Sometimes I see these really nice families. Family dog, kids, house. The whole works and I get really jealous. (i never had any of that..even prior to BD) Then I get to know the moms a little bit, and guess what? They were single moms at one point! This happened twice this week!

I just have to put myself out there and I am excited about trying something that will be fun.


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I completely understand where you are coming from. There are so many things my ex did that are similar where I said to myself I should have never married him, then I should have left. My mother had a few suicide attempts before she succeeded. The one that landed her in the rehab where she finally did succeed she was pretty bad off. She called me telling me she took a whole bunch of insulin and Xanax, I called the cops and they transported her to the hospital. I got home from work and begged ex to drive me to to the hospital (about 2 hours away). he refused and said he was going out to the bar that night. So I went to the bar with him instead. Well, whens he was released ot the hospital to the facility I took a 3 hour trek to see her..... that was the last time I ever saw her, she killed herself a few days later. If I didn't go to see her, I would have never seen her again. I live with guilt for choosing my ex instead of my mom. At her wake (it was all I did, no burial) he left early because all his friends were coming over for a BBQ. He should have never left my side. But he was always #1.

When I was bleeding at 20 weeks of my pregnancy I freaked. I was bleeding when we were going to bed. After to all we had been to, I just wanted to make sure everything was ok. He complained because he had to get up for work in the morning. He came, but gave me crap about it. The night he met OWW he was out with friends and said he would be home from by 12, the latest the train came in. 2am, he couldn't be reached and he never came home. I drove a half hour to the train station, called his sister, everything. He strolls in at 5am telling me I was being dramatic and had the balls to me mad at ME for being mad at him. He said he fell asleep and left his phone on the table. 2 years later I found out the truth. We lived almost an hour awayf rom the hospital and I was in my 3rd trimester. He said "I will go out until you are 36 weeks". Well, he went out on 36 weeks, 4 days. I stayed at my dad's because I was scared. Well, I went into labor 3 days later and I realize where he had really been. I

These ran through my head for so long. I cringe at how pathetic I was to allow this. The anger used to be soooooo strong. These things still come in my head but now I realize how I am actually fortunate not to be with this degenerate anymore. I do promise you the anger lessens and the thoughts pop in less and less.

I have my dignity now. I feel like I had zero dignity back then. Now it is painful for me to look back on because I can't believe I actually let myself be treated that way. You are no longer allowing it. Please, take pride in that. You deserve a lot better and sometimes the better is what we give to ourselves.

I discovered so much from homecare and hospice. Seeing how people really live on the inside. How they come out on top when the cards were down. How maybe the perfect little house isn't so perfect after all. I began my hospice volunteering today and I enjoyed being around the patients again.

enjoy this journey, you'll learn so much! Be excited about it!

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Edit, he went out at 35 weeks, 4 days (not that it matters)

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That's pretty sh...y ginger. Its nice not to be aggravated by that type of behavior anymore. I would rather be alone then feeling tied to someone that treats me that way.... Yet I was tied to some one that was treating me that way. I kept arguing, and trying to rationalize, and show him how wrong he was, instead of just saying..."Hey you can make that choice that is really unfair, and i have absolutely no say or power over it. Yo're choosing this way, shows that you are not treating me with respect. But I do have the power to walk away. " Yet at the same time, that belief that you can walkaway also conflicts with the commitment of a marriage and sticking with your marriage when things are not right.

I feel like I was mostly aggravated at the end. My ex was'nt that bad till the end. Or perhaps, he was but it never really manifested because I had never really had to contend with any super serious life events.

Or perhaps he started treating me bad because he just did not like me any more and wanted out and that's what people do. They treat the other person badly, because they committed and regret their commitments and form intense resentment. Does this make them bad guys? To me it does. My ex will always be a bad guy and a bad father in my eyes.

I recently witnessed this happen with some friends. Walk away was not treating spouse the way one should. Just blatantly disrespectful for years. Eventually walkaway cheats and leaves, because they were unhappy for years and just done.

Looking at them, you realize walkaway was treating spouse that way because they were "done" but not ready to leave?

So i have to remember that when I sense someone is treating me in a prolonged disrespectful way, I have to recognize it and be willing to walk away from some one that is "done" to save me tons of heartache.


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Juju, I absolutely get where you're coming from.

The expensive gifts? They started a little after something fairly significant had happened with STBXH (emotionally).

The disregard/disrespect for my health? Well, I had that too. I hurt my back while he was working away and I was staying with him (this was about 11 months before he finally ran away). It was pretty bad...it was six months before I was better from it, although I'm still suffering the health consequences of it, a number of years on. I later found out when I was at physio that a guy that had something similar to me had been in hospital on a morphine drop.

Anyway, so there I was, about 10 days into this whole horrendous experience that was to drag on months and months. I was away from home and staying with him while he was working on something. There was a Christmas party. I said I would go along, as long as we could leave not too late.

Bearing in mind, I was in **a lot** of physical pain, hadn't been able to lie in bed to sleep since it had started, had managed to 'sleep' sitting upright in a chair for a few hours a night, I made it to I think it was either midnight by that point. I said to him that I wanted to go home.

What did he do? He disappeared (with the one key that we had to our accommodation) for another couple of hours. I tried phoning him...nothing. By that point I was exhausted and in a huge amount of pain. The only thing I could do was just sit in the venue of the Christmas party, and just stare into space.

At the point where I just decided to walk back and wake our landlord up, he appeared, looking really surprised. What had he been doing? Sitting in a room somewhere and smoking pot.

I really can't believe all of that, writing it again. Who would want to be with someone that treated them with such disrespect and disregard?

Anyway, on the plus side, I'm finally addressing the consequences of my back injury. I realise that stopping feeling the pain is only part of the recovery process. The other part is regaining strength and flexibility. Except I'm not just aiming to get back to where I was before I hurt my back, in terms of strength and flexibility...I'm aiming to improve on that.

A metaphor for life, eh?

I bet we've all got stories of being treated with disregard and disrespect...

Ha! I've just remembered something he said towards the very end...it was something along the lines of not wanting to get to the point where he was treating me badly because he was resenting me. Makes me laugh now...he'd been doing just that for a number of years previous. Pathetic.

Anyway, yes, I agree, I have to remember that when I sense that someone is treating me in a prolonged disrespectful way, I have to recognise it, and draw some boundaries to preserve myself.

Thank you Juju for posting on this.


Me: 48, XH: 42
T: 18 years, M: 15 years

EA/PA 1: 6/2012
EA/PA 2: from autumn 2012-present

BD: 5/2013
ILYBNILWY BD & left: 10/2015

OW conceived: 8/2016
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Yesterday I was consumed with anger for my ex. I gave myself anger and vent time. And currently I do not feel that intensely. Although I know it will come again.

Today I was consumed with stress and anger at my attorneys.

(I actually have more hatred for them then any of the walkaways on here. They are the absolute scum of the earth and deserve the worst that life has to offer any one)

I am going to go to arbitration over their bills. They billed unethically. And they were just so poor at critical thinking. I had to look up laws to tell them what was advantageous to me. Regarding changes in higher education and a basic federal tax law. I would not mind collaborative work, but when you are billing me for 2 lawyers (450$) on speaker phone for a 30 minute phone call which only took place for 12 minutes according to my phone bill that's really really bad. Why the hell did 2 attorneys conference in on a call. MY case is so simple!!!! There is so much more as well.

They get away with stuff like that because 1. There is no way in my state of looking up lawyers under investigation 2. It is really expensive to the person they take advantage of to pursue. Arbitration is an alternative but once you go that route it seems you lose your right to claim malpractice.

The emotions just overwhelm me. They really do. I don't act on them at all. If you met me in person, you would never know I feel like this. But i was really mad. And i have a right to be mad. They are 100% wrong. But think they are gods that can inflict insane and unaudited billing practices and fees that people with similar or even more valuable skill sets cannot. They are true narcissists.

But my lesson is to learn that its ok to feel the anger, but not let it consume me anymore. I cant let it affect my interactions with my son (the anger being in the back of my mind) or drag me down so that I do not do fun things for myself either (like starting that dating profile or exercising)

I sometimes wish i could just move into a area void of all people, since most of them just want to take advantage of you.


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So i finally signed up for an online dating match.

Because I'm new and wrote a profile that was not generic (although probably pretty dorky) I have had a nice response.
There are a couple of guys that seem genuine and nice and like potential dates. But for some reason, I am afraid to respond back. I am not shy. I don't have social anxiety or anything like that. So am not sure why. I know it can be considered rude to not answer with anything. So i am not sure with how long I can get away with not responding back.

I am also having a hard time not constantly checking to see new messages. (just like when I post here)

On line dating is so different from waiting till that guy you met called you!


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The bad thing about the online dating site is that every one knows whose reading whose profiles and when your online, so my obsessive nature needs to be reigned in.


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I have a lot of stressful things coming up. CSE meeting, figuring out lawyer bills to arbitrate ( I wrote my attorney a letter and cant wait to see how she once again twists what I am asking her about like she did at my last inquiry. Lawyers are great at that), getting a second job...i am in a great position in that finding a job will be easy, just not sure how to handle it. My current job is desperate for more help too right now and even that is hard for me to commit to while trying to get son settled in school and with all these upcoming holidays and days off. Its been so long, and I am not knocking these things off my list like I should be!

The dating thing is fun stuff and non threatening stuff to analyze though though, so will write about that.

So far, I have weeded through many and responded back to 2 messages and initiated one message and have had positive feedback. Have yet to go on any dates though. But maybe will set something up for this weekend. I am really curious about other people's situations and what their baggage is, but I know you cant really talk about that early on. I am 39 and do acknowledge that guys my age are going to go for younger woman (which makes sense if they want to start families)Guys my age with kids will go for me or for younger women. Younger guys will go for me, but I know they will not be looking for anything serious so I never respond. T I am a catch to guys over 50, but worry about them because I wonder why they are so adverse to women their own age. They are usually financially secure and maybe looking more for space and freedom and fun. A companion, but not necessarily a family.

I think all this and post on here, but IRL I don't take it too seriously. (I have more serious issues to contend with) I promise!

Online dating is weird, because its not really about meeting someone or relating to someone and feeling a clique or spark or friendship. Its just about cold hard logistics and for many (not me) a good pic. I go for original profiles that reveal someone is looking for commitment and maybe a little unique in their thinking. But I know that even those profiles can just be good marketing or good PR (as a friend pointed out) I cant wait to actually set up a date.


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JujuB, online dating is weird for sure but with anything it's what you make of it. I Have my foot dipped into the apps but don't allow much to come from it, for several reasons. I actually laughed at some article you were talking about elsewhere not long ago. It was mentioning passing on guys who don't respond first after matching them (something I find myself doing) as they are likely emotionally unavailable. I'm sure there's a nugget of truth to it, for some guys anyway, lol

Hope all's going well and things with the ex and L's come to a resolution soon you can live with.


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Hi fogg!

You know what? I did not listen to my own advice. I ended up messaging the guy that lived closest and whose profile I had the best vibe from...and I was right. Great guy. Raised his child by himself. Seems like more of a well adjusted LBS then a walkaway. We went on 2 casual predates and he seems really interested. He said he does not message any more at all because he wasn't really getting responses.

That seems to be the problem a lot of guys get, and I can see it. The women seem to get too many messages and likes where it becomes impossible to respond even if someone seems cool. Its just way too much. And its really because there are a lot of guys that just mass send tons of messages to everyone without even reading the profiles. I heard its a numbers game.

I went on a predate with one other person and it seemed to go well. I am surprised when guys seem to like talking to me and prolong it, because my ex truly wanted nothing to do with me for a really long time.

The thing that is different about online dating is that you are going out with someone in which there is no previous crush, or attraction. Like in the olden days of dating, for someone to ask you out they probably liked you for a while. This is more like blind dates, with a little bit of pre banter.

I am going for the guys that seem "safe" or that I get the LBS feeling from. I can tell based on who has the kids, and some of the things they say. What they are looking for. But I dont know if I am necessarily physically attracted or does that come once you know someone?

Someone that was really interesting and seemed super smart and funny and had a bit of depth said something about seeking happiness, and I just knew and delved and his marriage seemed filled with infidelity (supposedly on both ends)I know its a red flag but i cannot help debating.

Anyway, I am wondering if my desire for safety and security after my experiences with my marriage will influence me in going for somone "practical" instead of someone I feel that chemistry with, and if that's a bad thing.


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Also, last weekend was the first weekend I went out on these predates. When I came home, I felt really bad. I actually cried. Because none of these guys pulled the crap my ex did. One raised his child, the other was seeing his kids a minimum of 3 days a week. And his ex was well provided for.

My ex was really gross financially. I don't even know how he looks in the mirror.

HE spent most of his earnings and savings on god knows what and left his child and wife to live off his in laws. And he had the capability and potential. Top schools, great field, super smart. Hes so pathetic. I dont get it. I do, but its really pathetic. Every one seems to look good comparatively.


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Quote:
You know what? I did not listen to my own advice. I ended up messaging the guy that lived close


See? I told you.

Quote:
I actually cried. Because none of these guys pulled the crap my ex did.


I remember, the first guy I dated after my ex. I was so impressed at his ordinary generosity to his adult kids, and he was so appalled at my ex's selfishness. It really helped me put my ex's behavior in perspective.

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I am really appalled by my ex's selfishness. I came on here filled with guilt because I felt like him walking away was my fault. Like I was this horrible wife. I am starting to regain my confidence and realize my sense of worth.

So regarding online dating, I have been texting and going out on some casual dates with a really really nice guy. He ended up living super close to me, raised his child by himself (went through a lot of similar stuff many here do, but over 10 years ago) , wrote in his profile that he is not afraid of LTR/marriage is not looking to date multiple people at once and has texted me almost everyday. He seems to want some one to spend time with. I messaged him first and he is different in that he does not seem to comment on looks or know how to flirt. But Im pretty sure he likes me.

I am taking things slow and working on building a friendship.


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So, I am in such a good mood.

I negotiated with my attorneys. I think I could have gotten more back had I went through arbitration, but I just did'nt have it in me. And I calculated the aggravation and stress that would have put me through versus what I could possibly get back and it just wasn't worth it. I am ready to move on.

I have been going out with some one I met on line. I messaged him first and he is just so cool to hang out with. He texts me every day. He is very traditional. Wants to spend lots of time with me. No games. And he gave me flowers. It feels so nice! Im really excited.


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Yay! Glad you resolved your dispute, and glad you found a date!

He sounds great - but just one word of caution from an experienced dater - keep your Sherlock Holmes hat on. Look for clues. He may be the perfect guy - but - it's too early to tell the difference between a perfect guy and a potential scammer. Enjoy but verify.

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KML

like what clues? I mean, other than the obvious ones?

Sorry for the hijack


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*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
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Juju

some of your comments made me cry. When I think of things I allowed and somehow did not see

but that disappointed me deeply.

All 3 children's births were of course beautiful and I had healthy babies.

but in the background were experiences that were tainted by behavior that seems so sh1tty now.

It's like a malignant entitlement that I somehow glossed over. Honestly it's embarrassing and painful.

I met a guy in a group and we seem to be connecting. Nothing huge has happened yet but I think we will date.

ANYHOW, he offered to fix something of mine that was broken. When he asked which tools he would need, I said i wasn't sure what they're all called.

He did not mock or smirk or retract his offer. He said he'd "just bring all of them".

This^^^ struck me as so kind. Like a big deal.

Now, I don't want to take anything away from my new friend, but maybe it's just NORMAL!

Which makes me very sad about what I've put up, with and modeled for my kids.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Originally Posted By: JujuB
So, I am in such a good mood.

I negotiated with my attorneys. I think I could have gotten more back had I went through arbitration, but I just did'nt have it in me. And I calculated the aggravation and stress that would have put me through versus what I could possibly get back and it just wasn't worth it. I am ready to move on.

I have been going out with some one I met on line. I messaged him first and he is just so cool to hang out with. He texts me every day. He is very traditional. Wants to spend lots of time with me. No games. And he gave me flowers. It feels so nice! Im really excited.


I love everything about this!!

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October has been such a busy month for me. But I feel a little less stressed now. I have this eternal list of things. But now that divorce and lawyer stuff is in the past my shoulders are very light and its a good feeling.

I have been dating someone for a month now. If there are no hidden surprises, i can see this going long term. I realize that you do not really know someone until a minimum of 6 months. That perhaps a successful relationship is based on a couple's ability to fight fair, and seeing how someone fights or argues takes a while.

So far I really like him. My BS meter does not go up. We both have similar experiences (although his was worse then mine) Grew up in same areas. Live walking distance from each other. We seem to share similar sentiment and values regarding relationships, roles, and commitment. We are both looking for long term. But having fun getting to know each other. The honey moon phase is really nice! But I am aware that it does not last. I am still very excited.

Things I think I did wrong with my ex that I am sad about..

1. Asked him for too much.
2. Did not accept him. Tried to argue and get him to meet my needs instead of just breaking things off, or accepting and focusing on his needs.
3. I did not focus on his needs. I still dont really know what they were. It might have been space and independence? He always told me that he needed nothing from any one. That should have been a sign.


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Hey Juju,

I don't think that you should be sad about the past. Yes, there are some things that you believe that you could have done better, but could you really?

1 - I don't think that you can ask someone for too much, if it comes from a place of love and caring.
2 - We're all selfish, you could say this about anyone in your life, your kids, your parents, your best friends. It's human nature and Madonna sung it best - I'm not sorry.
3 - If you didn't know what his needs were, then it's actually his fault. He def knew what yours were, see point 1 (LOL). You cannot mind read, so don't even try, ever.

We're adults, we have learnt that which we could never teach ourselves. Life stepped up and said, howz bout an extra serving of the brown stuff, and no, we never had a choice. So if you never had a choice, how can you regret it.

we can't go back in time either. So leave it there, in the past. Live for today and you will never be sad.


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JujuB,
Just wanted to drop in and quickly read up on your situation. I am sorry that things may not have gone the way you initially wanted, but sometimes what we want and what we need are very different things. I wanted my wife back, after a few months I realized I needed someone better. You get my drift. Anyway, I haven't been here in a while, you popped into my mind and I wanted to check in and make sure you were doing ok.


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Thanks for posting ddj. I have been so busy since october and while i have been reading i have not been updating. Ny the time i put my som to bed, i just end up playing catch up. Im not running on that anxious and pnsessice adrenaline any more.

Hi eyetie! Thanks for posting. I always loved reading your threads because you were really strong and good about moving forward. Certainly a lot better then myself.

Im gonna start a new thread soon.


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Good Riddance 2017


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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