Got a phone call today from H and he said he really needed to tell me some things. So I listened.....
He said since he completed his forum class this past weekend, and for the past 24 hours, he has been continuing to work through some things and it has been more difficult then he thought it would be.
He told me about an incident that happened when he was a teenager. He got in some pretty bad trouble, and his parents told him how disappointed they were in him, and they tried to understand what and why it happened. He has now come to realize that at that time he failed to acknowledge what he did because he didn't want anyone to judge him or think he was a bad person for the mistake he made. He now knows that this type of thinking and behavior has carried on in his life since that moment, and that it has had a huge impact on choices he has made in his life.
He said he knows that after the A he blamed me for everything because he didn't want to be judged, or acknowledge how he acted during our M, or after the BD. He made me out to be the bad guy to all his friends and family so that it would take the attention off of him and what he had done.
He apologized several times during the conversation, and said that to say he has regret is an understatement. And, he also realizes that he hasn't "owned his sh*t."
He then went on to say that he still cares for me very deeply and always has. He understands that he needs to give me the opportunity to ask him questions and he is ready to answer them.
He said there is more that he wants to talk to me about but he needed to get back to work, so he said he would call me later. Not sure when "later" is.....
I know this is going to sound very selfish on my part, but what I want to know is why did it have to get to this point in order for him to start realizing how he F'd up? I know he realizes he has treated me so poorly after BD, but what about all the times before that?
Is it even worth it for me to go down that road? Should I just be thankful that he is now telling me all of this? Will I scare him away from continuing to tell me how he feels if I ask the hard questions? Is he telling me all of this because he feels me pulling away and being okay with living a life without him?
Wow, that is a tough spot but obviously forward progress. I keep telling myself if I ever get that call I will just listen. Maybe just listen to what he says and tell him you need time to process it. I would be afraid by asking those questions he would go running off again. I read someone else's thread about an H who went through a similar seminar, reached out to talk, and then ultimately disappeared again before that happened.
Hey SKM, I don't think I have posted to you before but I started reading your thread from the beginning the other day and I must say I could have written so much of what you wrote about the emotions you were and are experiencing in your sitch.
You have been on such an emotional rollercoaster I imagine you must be so exhausted. I felt your pain. Every tear, feelings of frustration, anger, sadness and hurt to name a few. I have nodded to myself often as I read how angry, disappointed and confused you were with your H's lack of communication. The thought that this person who literally worshiped the ground you walked on now treats you with such indifference is hard to process let alone accept.
I am also getting to the one year mark since BD, similar to when you joined this board and I was hopeful that by this stage either I would be reconciled with H or I would be in a much, much better place than at the beginning. However no reconciliation instead I still cry every day, make up different scenarios in my head just to wind myself up and then the cycle of spinning (no pun intended) starts again. Never ending!
I think your H is confused for sure. Your decision to sell the house is making him sad because he is losing the familiarity and comfort that was part of his life with you. IMHO your question about why it took him this long to get to the point where he realises he f'cked up is because as I understand it takes a while for them to process the enormity of what they have done and the consequences of their decision. Also this Landmark conference seems to be the catalyst for him looking inward and seeking the answers he needs as to why he has done these things.
I would like to hope that he is starting to come out if the fog but my spidey sences are telling me that the increase in contact isn't only to do with the house sale and reconnecting with you but I'm sorry to say it could be because of the Landmark recruitment drive as well. It will be interesting to see if he continues with the increased contact even if he knows you are not interested in joining. Do they offer some sort of monetary incentive for recruiting friends/family?
From reading your recent posts I can see that you have changed and grown so much more stronger. This gives me so much hope that I too can get to that stage where my actions aren't controlled by how I think my H will react. It will be six weeks since I have had any contact with H except for a text to let me know he dropped Easter eggs off for me and D. I just said 'thanks'. It's been such a hard slog not to call/text him but I have held off. Today I nearly asked him over for a pizza but my D strongly advised against it and she is right. It will just look like pursuing again, which I am very good at!
I think you see doing great SKM. You should be very proud of your progress...
Me - 47 H - 45 D-16 M - 6 years Separated - May 16
Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
I would just stay neutral /open with him and continue to move forward in your own life
yes he may feel you are moving on and he may not want to loose you he may want to keep you in the mix just in case sounds like he feels deep regret and guilt and that is good-
we dont really know but if its MLC it will take a while
If he wants to talk for now- listen if you can within reason if you can handle it validate if you can try to not put any more focus on him-continue with your plans you will know more in time but if your actions are bringing him closer-continue
I also would not ask to much right now
sounds like he is trying to figure out what he wants and what he did and still all he did did not make him happy
I would figure out what you want and continue to get your feelings out with others there will be time later to
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
Coly, peacetoday and OwnIt.......thanks for posting. I am always grateful for those who take time to read my thoughts, and want to tell me theirs
I had another conversation with H a few days ago. He continued to share his thoughts and feelings. He wanted to clarify some things he said to me the last time we spoke.
Our conversation was good. I found myself being able to listen and not wanting to jump in and respond right away. I usually think that what I have to say is so important that I would interrupt the conversation, and H never liked when I would do that.
He said he finds himself with a much clearer head these days. I asked him "did it feel like you were in a fog" and he said "what a great way to describe it"
He continues to work on himself. He did tell me that he is doing all of this work for me, and that "this relationship"....I assume he meant the one between him and I, was the only one he was focusing on right now. Funny thing is....I don't feel like we have a "relationship" at all.
He also mentioned that he was going to have a conversation with his parents about other things he has come to realize that happened when he was younger. And, he wants to speak to them about how they don't open up to him, or show their feelings or emotions. He also plans on speaking to them about how they treated me in the past. That should be an interesting conversation, because they are people who totally shut down when the conversation gets tough....which is where he totally learned that coping mechanism from
I have worked the past 3 days, so we have minimal contact. He did reach out to me each day to tell me that he hoped I had a good day at work. Also to tell me what he had been doing for the day, or what he was going to be doing. I'm not really sure why he was doing that?
Of course work was very emotional as we had several very ill patients to deal with. Work continues to challenge my thinking when it comes to wanting to continue to work on this R or not. Life is too short and you have got to cherish those around you because you never know when they wont be there anymore, or taken from you so suddenly....I am reminded of that every time I step into the ICU
I find myself thinking that I am totally ready to let him go. I have a lot of love I want and need to give to someone, and if he is not willing, ready or able to accept it, then maybe I should find someone else who is. I also am someone who deserves love and affection, and maybe I need to find someone who is ready to give that to me too
Maybe he never learned how to give and receive love from those that raised him. You sound like you were raised by loving family members that always showed love and respect.
Maybe he is reaching out to you and staying in touch because he feels that you have reached that point of totally letting him go.
Maybe he is standing up for you to his parents to show you that he is in a way a protector.
Mine has totally shut the door to anything except money for the kids. How one can totally shut out someone that they have spent 25 years with is truly amazing. We share a Kindle Account and I saw that she downloaded a book called Happy Divorce: How to turn your divorce into the most brilliant and rewarding opportunity of your life...what a crock of $&!^.
I hope and pray that you are able to stay focused on you and your growth. One day at a time!!!
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Hey Coly...things around here have been busy, so I haven't been able to post recently. I also felt like I needed to take a step back for a bit and re-evaluate some things and think for a bit.
I put my house on the market a few weeks ago, and have been having almost daily showings, so between working and trying to sell the house I have been occupied. I am happy to report that I received an offer....above asking, so I guess I have sold my house
Things with H have been interesting. A few weeks ago, he was a bit distant, which I have come to realize is his way of not dealing with things. Recently we have been speaking more, and have had more interaction. Since I am selling the house I asked him if he could keep the dogs at his place, because that would make it easier for the showings. He gladly offered to keep them. We have had a few good conversations recently. I had come to the place where I was ready to let him go and I told him that. He was not ready for that at all. I told him that I need someone in my life who wants to be with me, and not someone who "doesn't know" what they want.
We didn't speak for a few days, and I had to call him on some things regarding the house. We ended up meeting for dinner and had a good conversation, not really about us, and then went on our way. A few days later I called him about something and he was distant and sounded like he was hiding something. I asked him where he was and he was at a party. He sounded as if he didn't want me to know where he was, so I asked him that. He said he doesn't have anything to hide. I am not exactly sure what happened next, but he said something and for some reason I started speaking to him in a not so nice tone. I told him that since he wanted to live his life as a single man, and not have to answer to anyone but himself, that I suggest he do what he needs to do to put that into motion. Of course silence on his part...which always frustrates me.
I ended up speaking to him really late that night after he got home and he said he was sorry for making me upset, and I asked since he wants to be able to act single why hasn't he filed for D and he said "because I don't know what I want." I said well I know that I am not going to live like this anymore and that I would like for him to file. More silence....
Since it was late he said he would call me the next day. This is going to shock all of you (not really).....he didn't call. I had been out on the lake enjoying the beautiful day and having fun with friends. When I left my friends house I called him and asked him if I could come over and speak to him. When I got to his house all of his blinds were closed and his house was so dark. He looked so pitiful and sad. I asked him why he didn't call and he said "I don't know, I just got to that place again." He said he had been home all day all alone and cleaned his house from top to bottom because he knew that I would likely show up and he wanted to make sure the house was clean when I got there. I don't really know what that meant? And, this is coming from a man who is very neat and tidy and his house is never dirty. I asked him if he would like to come to my house, he said yes, so we drove over together.
We had dinner and talked. I told him that I will be okay if he filed for D. He said he doesn't know what he wants and that is why he hasn't filed. We continued to speak and I told him that if he was still speaking to me, and having some kind of contact with me, because of all of his shame and guilt that he has, then he should stop. I told him that if he was doing this to be my friend, it was not needed, because I did not want to be his friend because I had plenty. He said he was sad to hear me say that. I finally asked him if he wanted me in his life and he said yes. I asked him why and he said because he cares about me. He also said because he doesn't want to have any regrets, and that he is afraid of losing me.
He ended up staying the night and we were intimate. I am not sure how that ended up happening, or if that was the right thing to do? He went home the next morning. I did not hear from him for 3 days. I ended up calling him to tell him we had an offer on the house, and was he okay if I accepted it. He came over to my house later that evening and we spoke about the house. As he was leaving I made the mistake of asking him if he wanted to spend the night. Well....his answer was pretty upsetting. He said "I need to work out in the morning." He hugged me good bye and actually kissed me....which was a shock. His working out had been a huge issue in our marriage, and the importance that he placed on it over me.
A few days later he called and we spoke about the house, and he again came over for dinner. I later told him that I was upset by his response of wanting to go work out and that it sent me back to when we were married. He said he was glad that I told him how I was feeling, and he acknowledged how I felt and said he was sorry, and that was not his intention. He actually reached out to touch me and showed me some compassion. We spoke about other things and then as he was getting ready to go home he hugged me and was being affectionate, which of course was nice. He again kissed me several times.
He called me today to wish me a "Happy Mother's Day" from our dogs, which I did not expect. We have had several conversations regarding selling the house. He has done a few things for me, not pertaining to the house, which has been helpful. He is the "acts of service" love language, so I am guessing that he is doing those things for me in that manner.
I don't want to have any expectations of him now that we have crossed that line of being intimate. I don't want it to be an issue for us, but I also don't want it to be something that he thinks can happen whenever he feels like it.
He continues to make slow progress with himself, and I am still working on me.
Congrats on getting an offer on your house. Above the asking price too!
Mmm,your H does seem very conflicted. I expect you are both confused now that you have been intimate again. It's good that he doesn't see D as beng the answer to all this so that is a huge positive. I think he is moving towards you but very slowly. Think little skittish bird.
You said on my thread that in a similar way to me you keep finding reasons to contact H and I can see that it is mostly because of the house which is a good reason but then you fall back into R talk. Can you try your very best to keep it to house talk and if you want to talk about your R then make it clear that is what the call is about otherwise he will feel ambushed every time.
I know you have an offer on your house but why do you really want to sell it? Do you think this is the best time to do it with everything still so uncertain?
I like the fact that he sent you a Mother's Day message. You are doing great SKM!
Me - 47 H - 45 D-16 M - 6 years Separated - May 16
Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
Hey Coly.....I was happy that my house sold, and for over asking as well
To answer your question of why sell it now. I have been separated from H since 11/2015. I have had to come to this empty house ever since then, and at times it has been pretty difficult. I also live in the suburbs...which when we bought the house 10 years ago was what both of us wanted. I find myself not wanting to be in this type of neighborhood any longer, and am wanting to move downtown. Some place where there is a bit more going on, and will force me to get out of the house more often.
I love how you described H as a skittish little bird....so accurate
I was at work the past 3 days and only had interaction one of those days with H because we were dealing with house issues/offers. I didn't hear from him Sunday or Monday, and I did not reach out to him either.
Today he sent me a text with a photo of the dogs, and also told me that he had a dentist appointment today. Not really sure why he is telling me that? I am not going to respond to him. I need to keep my distance right now.
Coly, I know both of us are doing the best we can, and that is all we can expect from ourselves for right now.
skm...congrats on the sale of the house. I'm glad and also sorry to hear that there was so much emotional confusion during your last few times with your H. I hope and pray that he finally figures things out, but as we know, it is up to him. You sound like you are doing well.
God Bless...
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Congratulations on the house sale. Now, you can begin to move forward and call your new space your own w/o being remind of your h.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Thanks everyone for the congrats on selling my house Now I just need to find a new place to live. June 16th is the closing, so that will be here soon enough
SBJ.....it definitely has been emotionally draining on me the last few interactions I have had with H. Just when I think he might be poking his head out of the tunnel....he goes right back in. I hope you are right that one day he figures it out, but I often wonder if I will be around if and when that happens. I just have to continue to work on me.
Job.....I am sad to be leaving my house, but I also think it is a good thing. We (I) have been in this house for 10 years, and I sometimes sit here and think about everything that happened in our marriage while living here and it makes me sad.
Coly.....I have been looking for places to rent for right now. I am moving downtown, which is very different from where I live now. So I want to make sure I like the area before I buy again.
I am still trying to figure out why H mentioned he was going to the dentist today. Maybe he was looking for sympathy? I did not respond to his text, and have not initiated any contact. I really feel like I need to distance myself for right now. But when I do that he then doesn't initiate communication either, and then when I ask how come he hasn't he tries to put it off on me by saying things like "well I haven't heard from you so I thought you didn't want to talk to me" or "I thought I would just wait until you reached out to me." Very frustrating. I sometimes feel like a teenager when I am dealing with him
Ownit....Yes Coly and I have similar sounding issues when it comes to our H. My H is a very kind and sweet man when you dig down deep, but he also is a scared little boy, who lacks courage and doesn't trust himself and questions every decision he makes, so then he ends up doing nothing and just drifts along like you said.....so frustrating.
skm...Caliguy replied to my thread and it was pretty good response to something I was struggling with:
"That little sailboat without a sail is going to drift aimlessly for some time, sooner or later it will hit shore again. The real question is will you be a tired old man who has been wasting away waiting for his ship to return ... or will you have become a stronger man who simply can appreciate the arrival of the ship that came back?" -Caliguy
I, like you, want to continue to grow and prosper for me and my kids. If at some point, they "get it"...then we will have to cross that bridge at that point. Your H seems to be bouncing off of the rocks a bit. My W is still totally convinced that she is making the best decision for "us" and that one day, I will see this was the right thing to do. Haha!
You have been doing this for longer than I have and I have so much respect for you having stayed so strong.
“So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.-Matthew 6:34 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Glad to read that you are moving on with your life and that you have reached another degree of detachment, selling your house is such a statement/proof of it. It symbolizes your desire to turn the page and show that you are ready for a NEW life with or without him. He might realize that you are really DONE with all that drama and now the ball is in his camp, so it's up to him if he doesn't want to lose you forever.
You are really doing an excellent job at being detachment, don't give up even if he shows signs of improvement, stay detached, they hate losing the control of the situation/power so sometimes they are really nice just to try to bring us back under their control and test how much we are still attached to them, it reassures them about their ego, be aware of it.
You are now aware of your own worth and are not afraid to take actions. What I mean is that you won't settle for an unbalanced relationship, and if you decide to give him a chance (up to you), it has to be something fair and sustainable.
You made tremendous progress since last December, you regained your strength and your self worth. It doesn't mean that you don't love him anymore but deep down you know that enough is enough, your life is waiting for you.
Big hugs,
Me 52+ WH 57+ Married 20 + Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
SBJ....I really like what Caliguy said to you about the sail boat. It is so true....they really are aimlessly drifting along, hoping that somehow they will get to where they need to be, but unsure if they are willing to do what is required of them to get there, and when they finally do, will we the LBS still be around for them.
Skyhigh.....my old friend, so nice to hear from you. Your words are always so encouraging. I do feel like I have made quite a bit of progress since December. Never did I ever think I would be in this place of wanting to move on with my life. And, being okay without H being in it.
So tomorrow, the 19th, is my anniversary. I don't really have too many feelings about the day. It almost seems as if it isn't my wedding anniversary any longer, because I don't really feel married any more. It will be 11 years that we have been "married" ...... if you can call it that.
I have to say that H continues to surprise me. The other day he had texted me, to tell me he was going to the dentist. I made the decision not to respond, usually I would. Yesterday I was off and looking for a place to live, enjoying a quiet day, when H called. I thought for a second that I wouldn't answer the phone, but I did because he made the effort.
He asked what I was doing, which wasn't much. He asked me if I was at work, which I wasn't. He then asked if I was hungry, and if I had eaten. He then proceeded to ask me if I would like to go out to dinner with him. He said he would like for us to get dressed up (which for us is not wearing shorts and a tshirt) and go have a nice dinner. I was very shocked!!!
I told him that it would be nice to have dinner with him. He said he would like to go somewhere we could enjoy the nice day. I told him he could pick where. He then said, "I wasn't ready to decide that, and honestly I actually am having to get over the fact that you actually picked up the phone, and agreed to go have dinner with me." He also said "I stared at the phone for 15 minutes before I actually made the call to you, because I was wasn't sure if I had the courage to call you, and I was worried you might say no."
He came and picked me up, he was late...which is nothing new for him....but he apologized. We were eating dinner, really having good conversation and enjoying ourselves. At one point in the conversation he said he knew that last year our anniversary was pretty difficult for me, because he did not reach out to me at all, and he wanted to make sure that this year was not the same. He also said that since I was working the next two days, and he would be out of town this weekend doing some obstacle course races, he wanted to make sure that we spent time together because we would not see each other for a few days.
WHO IS THIS MAN????
I'm thinking he feels me pulling away, doing my own thing, selling the house, not answering his texts, moving on with my life and he is getting worried
So I guess what I am doing is working. But honestly I don't really feel like I am really doing anything, except living my life for me now. He knows I am out doing things without him....albeit not that many things....but I am not sitting home being sad and crying any more.
So, life for me continues on. I am still looking for a place to live, and starting to get things together for when I start packing up this house.
He knows I love him and how I feel about him, but I also think he knows that those feelings and emotions don't rule my every thought or decision anymore like they used to.
Maybe, just maybe, that is what everyone has been trying to tell us on this board thru all of their life stories. When we get a life and start doing things for ourselves, maybe our spouse will see that and begin the journey back home...I guess it's no guarantee, but either way it is good for us.
Good luck finding a place that you can make a home.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
I think while the MLCers share similarities they are also different Many MLCers would not be concerned about spending time close to anniversary with LBS not to mention the OW would have a fit
MY XH never asked me to dinner-never said many of the things you're h is saying
Seems like he is thinking about things I guess he does not have an oW either b/c he seems preoccupied with calling you and wondering where u are and if you will pick up
You may want to step it up a notch to being just a bit less available to see what he will do
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
He might be starting to realize that if he doesn't treat you with care you will be gone. Taking you out for dinner and telling you why is really a big step forward toward a more positive relationship, for once that dinner was not centered on him but you.
You are on the right path, you mastered the art of detaching. The more we pull away the more they want to engage.
Me 52+ WH 57+ Married 20 + Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
Just a bit of journaling.....not much going on. A very non eventful day for me today, which is just fine as I had a pretty long. emotional day at work yesterday
SBJ....I know in the beginning of me coming to these boards I was wondering what everyone was saying, GAL, 180, NC, etc. I thought "this can not apply to me." Well, I guess I was wrong. I really don't do that much GAL activities as my job sometimes just makes me want to have peace and quiet. But, I do go out every once in a while. I find that I am so much more at peace with being home by myself, and don't find that I am as sad or emotional as I used to be when I think about my sitch. I am just going to keep a healthy distance between H and myself and see what happens.
OwnIt.....I do find that I am a happier person these days. Not sure if it is me finally doing what I have been told to do for all of this time (I am a bit hard headed) or is it the anti depressants . I went back and read through several of your posts. I always think to myself that I have no idea how I could have done this if I had children to think about. There were times I could barely get myself dressed in the morning. I am always so in awe of those of you who are going through this with children.
Peacetoday.....I am not 100% sure, but am pretty darn sure, that ever since BD there has not been OW. Now, again I can not say for certain, but we do have some of the same friends and none of them have mentioned anything like that to me. And, H was adamant that I knew there was no OW any longer after BD.
He definitely has started to initiate communication, which is very new for him. I make sure that I don't answer him back as quickly as I used to, and I think before I speak
He is also really opening up about his thoughts about his life growing up, how his parents raised him and how that has really had an impact on the person he has become today. He really is a very sweet, caring and sensitive man. I think now he is seeing that it is okay to show those emotions, where before he thought it showed weakness. He even made a comment the other night about not having a good role model as a man growing up. That was something I NEVER expected to hear from him.
Skyhigh.....I never thought about it until I read what you posted about H taking me out for dinner and telling me why, and how it is really a big step forward toward a more positive relationship between us, and how the dinner was not centered on him, but on me. That made me think that he really is trying.
I am not getting my hopes up because he still is elusive at times and still does things that make me question his motives. I still see him trying to hold on to some control. I asked him the other day if he liked his freedom, and he was honest and answered that he does. He also said that he has put the distance between us because he needed to figure out what he wanted. That makes me think he could continue on like this for a very long time. I did tell him that I would not do that, and that I am not some weak high school girl, who has no confidence in themselves, and is going to be willing to wait around for him.
Hopefully I didn't overstep by telling him that. But, I am the kind of person that "means what I say, says what I mean."
Hey SKM, great update from you. You sound so positive these days and I for one can't wait to have that feeling. Still feeling like a negative Nancy over here!
I'm so glad your H is starting to intitiate contact the with you. It's strange because although I know so many LBS's have S's that don't contact them it sometimes feels like I'm the only one experiencing it! I don't know how to describe it but I guess it's hard to understand that this is par for the course even though they are different people living in different parts of the world! I just wonder if the all get together like we do and discuss what the are going to do ensure they don't give us any hope!!
With your question about whether he likes his freedom I feel it was a bit of a loaded question. I think you were hoping he was going to say no and then that would have been validation that he made a mistake. I don't think he is ready to admit if he wasn't enjoying it but IMHO I think he can enjoy living on his own but still miss you and want to move closer to you. Anyway you don't want the reason for him wanting back in because he didn't enjoy living on his own.
Also I think the word 'freedom' makes it sound like living with you was like a prison sentence which I am sure it was not! I'm not sure I would have been brave enough to ask that question in the first place!!
I think all theses baby steps are positive SKM. Just keep doing what you are doing because it seems to be working...
(((SKM)))
Me - 47 H - 45 D-16 M - 6 years Separated - May 16
Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
Coly.....for a long time I had absolutely no contact with H. He made darn sure that he did not answer me if I called, nor did he respond to any texts. He has definitely gotten much better about it, but sometimes I still feel like he is still trying to control some of that by waiting to call back or respond just because he can
I love what you said about all of them getting together to discuss what they are going to do to ensure they don't give us any hope......that made me laugh
I re-read what you wrote about asking H about his freedom, and I really appreciate what you said. When I asked him if he liked it or not, I definitely was asking to see if he would respond and say he preferred living with me, and when I didn't hear wanted I to hear it reinforced that I still have some work to do. I know he made a mistake, and so does he, because he has told me numerous times what a huge mistake he made. He has apologized to me several times, but I guess I have not totally accepted it because I ask questions like that
I know he likes living on his own because he gets to do what he wants, and come and go as he pleases, and doesn't have to explain certain things. He is still not forthcoming about things he does. I need more from him in order to start to accept his apology and start to trust him again.
I borrowed his truck on Sunday to move some things out, and he of course got my vehicle. When I went to pick it up, he had some friends over, and politely asked me in, but then quickly took me to the garage to get his truck. When I was leaving he hugged me and kissed me. I told him I don't know what I am supposed to do around him....he said "do whatever you want."
Today reinforced that I still don't trust him. I have an in car security feature that tells me where my car is at all times. It came with the car when I bought it. I looked to see where my car (H) was, and when I saw that it had been at a Starbucks for over 2 hours my mind started racing. I did something that I am not proud of. I drove to where my vehicle was and sat in the parking lot and waited for him to come out. After about 15 minutes H and a female came out of the coffee shop. They hugged and spoke briefly, then went on their way. This was upsetting for me to see.....but I am not surprised. This is what I mean by still being deceptive and untrustworthy. I doubt he will tell me he spent 2 hours with a female at a coffee shop.
We had a conversation the other night and I asked did he find it interesting that he has so many female friends, and not many male friends? He gets quite a few texts throughout the day from these females. He said, "would you still think it was interesting if I hadn't cheated on you?" My answer was "yes I would." I asked him if he would like it if I had cheated on him, and then proceeded to have mostly male friends. He didn't answer. But, he did say that maybe the reason he spends time with so many females is because it has something to do with his mother, and how he was raised growing up.....like he didn't get something he needed from her, and is now trying to find it.
I don't see this type of behavior changing from him, and that is something I strongly need to consider before I continue on this with him. I feel like this is just one of the reasons he likes living alone so that he can see whoever he wants, and have as many female friends as he wants.
He called not long after he got home from that time at Starbucks, but I didn't answer because I didn't know if I would have been able to not mention it. I have not called him back.
I am supposed to see him tonight to exchange vehicles, and I really hope that I can keep my mouth shut about what I saw today.
I agree with you that behavior of being in touch with so many female friends is troublesome specially in regard of what happened. I told my WH that having close female friends was not an option anymore, because usually that's how things start. Also, I am very suspicious of those women who are "open" for that kind of friendship, knowing a man is not " fully free" or "still married"; it's just looking for inappropriate attention leading to trouble.
I would recommend that you not to mention anything, he might think in his twisted MLC mind that you exchanged vehicle for the purpose of spying on him.
I have a hard time buying his theory about why he is so "close of women", for me it's just another way for him to try excusing his behavior and to "force" you accepting it. Another manipulation...
Be very careful, it seems that his boundaries are according to his standards not yours, a relationship should be balanced and respectful. Be very cautious!
Keep the great job you are doing at staying detached (so tough... specially when you start to have hope and boom... something happens).
Me 52+ WH 57+ Married 20 + Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
I failed to mention that when H called (after meeting at Starbucks for 2 hours) he said he would be finished with work around 7pm, that he would call me after, and then we could exchange vehicles. Well....7 pm came and went, then 8pm, then 9pm and then 10pm and no phone call. It was a little after 10pm that he called me. I did not answer. He left a message and said he was "on his way over because he had not heard from me and he was worried." What ever that meant.
I made sure I was not there when he got there, I was out walking the dogs. He literally drove around the neighborhood looking for us. He approached me as me and the dogs were walking. He said "did you get my message" and I said "yes, I did." I told him I wanted to finish my walk, and he could meet me at the house. I was so shocked because I NEVER thought he would just show up like he did. I guess pulling back and not pursuing does work
I got to the house, we went in..... H: "sorry for disturbing you on your walk" Me: "you didn't disturb me at all" H: "how are you doing" Me: I looked him in the eye and said "do you honestly care how I am doing" H: "I wouldn't be here if I didn't."
H: "I have called you twice today and you didn't answer, and I never heard back from you" Me: "I got your messages" H: "is this what it's like to be ignored, because if so, I don't like how it feels" Me: "I'm not ignoring you, you said you would call me when you were finished working and you didn't, so I just went on about my evening"
There was more small talk. I asked him how his day was and then ...... Me: what did you do today? H: not much, just worked out and then went straight home Me: you didn't do anything else today H: I did go to get a battery but then went home and your car stayed in the garage all day until now Me: I looked at him and said "you are lying" H: no I'm not Me: are you trying to tell me that you went straight home from working out, and you didn't stop at Starbucks? H: Oh yeah, I did meet a "friend" at Starbucks....I forgot Me: not sure how you 'forget' that you spent 2 f'ing hours at Starbucks, with a female friend and 'forgot' H: I was just about to tell you where I was, but you didn't give me the chance to tell you that I was at Starbucks M: WTF!!!
I tried to remain calm and I was proud of myself because I never raised my voice. Of course I got the "she is just a friend speech.
I told him that I am really struggling with all of his female friends and I am not sure if that is something I am going to be able to handle moving forward. No response of course
Anyway, a lot more was said, but I wont bore you with the details.
He did say that he really wants me to trust him. I told him "you might not feel like you are lying to me, but for me you are still deceptive, elusive and not transparent and for me that is an issue."
Anywho.....he went home, hugged me and kissed me before he left. He is always the one who initiates the affection.
I am continuing to focus on me, staying detached, trying not to let his "SH!T" bother me.
I liked this comment "it seems that his boundaries are according to his standards not yours, a relationship should be balanced and respectful" ...... I need to remember that
I am exhausted with all of this CRAP!!!
Sometimes I wonder how much longer I can play these games with him
Well done for standing your ground SKM and telling him that he needs to be transparent. Hopefully he will start to see that this is what you need from him to build your trust.
My H a lot of female friends too and before I met him he hung around wth a group of girls two of which were in a relationship with each other and are now married. One if the girls he used to fancy and went on holiday with her as just friends as she did not reciprocate his feelings (obviously because she bated for the other side!). However she used to play on the fact that she knew he fancied her and there was a bit of unrequited love there so she flirted with him at every given chance in front of me! I hated her!!!
It will be interesting to see what our H does now..
Me - 47 H - 45 D-16 M - 6 years Separated - May 16
Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
MLC is an exhausting journey... expectations are crushed so often.
Take a break away from him if you feel you need that it is wearing you down. Protect yourself mentally. It's impossible to make a decision while you are immersed in the whirlwind. Step back, breath, call a friend to talk, it helps clarifying the mind. Make a mental plan that fits you right now and since nothing is set in stone in life, reassess it later. It's totally ok to change your mind multiple times, because decision are based on circumstances too.
It seems that he stepped up his game to "charm" you, to have you under his "power again" by being nice since you decided to sell your house. He wants you back around him but without having to make too many changes to his lifestyle. What can he can gain to keep you around? What can he loose if you decide to file for divorce? Tough questions, but he seems to keep going with his omissions and lies so...
You stated your position/feeling about his relationship with other females, and you had no answer, then he asked for your trust... really! If that's just plain manipulation.
Sometimes myself I wonder: Is it worth it to plan/hope for a life with someone who betrayed me that much, who lied to my face so many times? Yes, he changed but is it for real or is it just for a few months/ a few years just to have me around his finger again and then start again? Even if I have those thoughts, I decided to enjoy my life (stay detached), not to trust him blindly anymore, keep my eyes open, stay firm on my boundaries and if later on I have a decision to make, then I will.
Life is what we make of it, so our choices have to have our best interest in mind. At first, I made the choice not to file mostly for the kids after he said he was going to change, because I couldn't stand looking at him, I didn't want to mess up with their lives, then I decided to keep going because the changes he made were having a positive impact on our relationship, my level of happiness, and the kids also. But if he crosses a line, it's over, it's so difficult to rebuild, it takes so much energy, I am done wasting my time.
Once trust has been broken and we detached, we, LBS, become also "different" from before their MLC. We cannot be smitten anymore with their words, we are now based our judgment on their actions instead, that new attitude of us is "tough" for the MLCers to handle, because they used lies and deception to keep us hooked to them and it's not working anymore.
MLC is messing up with our life, our mind, and our ability to project ourselves with confidence to the future, it's such a hug roadblock.
Me 52+ WH 57+ Married 20 + Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
It's been a while since I have been on the boards.
I have been pretty busy with selling the house, trying to get things packed, donated, cleaned ..... and then finding a new place to live, and then working on top of all of that. But, I am happy to report that the house sold, everything is packed and in storage. I found a place to live (one of the physicians in our group has allowed me to temporarily live in one of her places) and I am all moved in. We close this Friday....fingers crossed.
Things with H have been interesting. I don't really know how else to describe it. Obviously we have spent a lot of time together, due to getting the house ready to sell. After it sold, we were still spending quite a bit of time together packing, cleaning and everything that goes with that. He has been more attentive to me. By that I mean he calls or texts on a daily basis. We speak about the house, but we also speak about a lot of other things as well. Our conversations, for the most part, are pleasant. He tells me about his day, and asks me about mine. We have gone on a few "dates" recently and those have gone well. My birthday was a few days ago and he got me a card from himself and a separate one from the dogs, and put them in my vehicle so when I got off of work they would be there for me to see. I thought that was pretty thoughtful of him to do. He did mention in the card that he is looking forward to us having some fun now that the stress of the house selling is over.
I do still find myself wondering just what the heck is going on between us, but I have decided not to ask that question anymore, or to spend too much time on it. I do not feel that we are piecing, but I can definitely see why people say that it can be more difficult then other areas of this MLC. He says he wants to "get to know me again"....... not really sure how I feel about that? That makes me feel that everything that happened (the affair) was as a result of me and who I was, or how I was acting, and nothing to do with him.
Whenever we are together, there is no outward affection in public. It usually happens when either one of us is leaving, and he is the one that initiates the goodbye affection, not me. I did mention that I found it odd that he kisses me good bye, or tries to initiate intimacy only in our homes, but never in public. I asked him why that was, and was it because he doesn't want anyone to think there is more going on. He said he doesn't think or feel that way at all
I did ask him some questions about a female that he spent some time with prior to us speaking again. This is the same female that I have had issue with because she asked him out on a date a few weeks after we separated, and she knew he was still married. He did say that they both were interested in possibly pursuing something, and that they went out a few more times, but that they decided that the time was not right, and they stopped. BUT, they are still friends, and they speak and text and she is a client of his. I told him I have a big issue with that, and as long as he is spending time with her......talking or texting, that I had no desire for him to be in my life. I basically said "it's here or me" ....... probably not my best moment, but that was how I felt. He said they don't really speak much, but when I asked him to show me his texts from her or any other communication from her, he wouldn't. That made me very suspicious. Obviously he still speaks to her, and has things on his phone from her that he doesn't want me to see, or things that he doesn't want to erase so that he can show me. I asked him to show me his phone and let me read texts from some of his other friends and he said he felt like by doing that I didn't trust him. WELL.....I still don't.
He continues to be deceptive with hiding texts, or phone calls. When someone texts me if we are together I share it with him. He does not do that with me. That does not instill trust in me, and I have told him that. Not really sure how to handle that?
I told him I have some very hard and strict boundaries when it comes to things in my life now, and if he can not or will not stay within those then I will be just fine with him not being in my life. I think he was shocked to hear that, but I really meant it.
So I continue to move along with my life, and continue to make decisions that are best for me. I do sometimes find myself wondering how a decision I make might have an effect on him, but that usually does not last for long. I am not being selfish, but I am looking out for my best interest.
So H made the last and final walk through the house this evening after cleaning everything up. He called me to let me know as he was leaving. I asked him "did you wave goodbye as you drove away?" He said he had a moment of pause and sadness as he drove off, and the reason for that was because he knows that he is the one to blame for me wanting to sell the house, and is also the one to blame for all of these changes going on in my life.
He said he knows that the choice he made to have the A ruined our marriage, and the life we had together. He also acknowledged that he understood why I didn't want to be in the house anymore. He said that he is sad because we built that house, and the memories in it together, and he ruined it by his choice to cheat. He then said "I'm sorry."
I didn't really say much, I just listened. I did end up saying "we definitely need to think about our choices in life because they don't just affect us, and as we have learned, those choices can have a huge effect on others."
I don't have any emotion about selling or moving out of the house. The way I look at it is this..... it is something that was a part of my life that doesn't exist anymore, and it is just a house. I can make new memories in a new place (with or without H) .
I am astonished how much progress and work you made on yourself since last December, you are such a strong woman, I am amazed by your transformation. I am so happy that you finally find some inner peace in that mess and you are rebuilding a life for yourself.
It seems that your H is entering a new phase, he is now able to look back at what happened without putting the blame on you anymore, that's a real change.
On my side, life is much better than last year or the previous years.
Me 52+ WH 57+ Married 20 + Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
Hey SKM, sounds like your H is regretting his choices and good on you to point out the ripple effect it has had on everything and everyone else around him.
I just wanted to wish you well as you enter this new stage of your life. Keep moving forward as you have been and let H see if he can keep up with you!
Me - 47 H - 45 D-16 M - 6 years Separated - May 16
Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
Coly and Skyhigh...............thanks for the encouraging words. Sometimes I look back at when I first came to this board and I am amazed at where I am at today. Never thought I would be here, that's for sure
Closing went off without any issues. H sat next to me and signed and initialed every piece of paper he was instructed to, and basically sat there in silence. I could tell he was feeling very uneasy, but honestly it was the reality of the situation. When we were finished, I wanted to get him out of the office as quick as possible because I knew he was uncomfortable. We went to grab a bite to eat, and he tried to pay for lunch and his card was declined, so I'm sure that was another uncomfortable moment for him, but another reality check for him. I didn't end up ordering food, but I was fine having to pay for it for him.
I was driving back to work after just leaving H, and he called me to tell about how reality continues to sink in, and how sorry he was about putting me in the position of wanting to sell the house. He said he is really trying to express his feelings and emotions and wanted to call me and let me know how he was feeling, instead of sending it in a text. I thanked him for that.
Didn't hear from him for the next 2 days, which I thought was odd. I texted him asking if I could have the dogs as I have several days off. He immediately called me and said he could bring them over right then if I wanted. It was 10pm so him offering that was a bit odd to me, and given the fact that I moved 30 minutes further away from where the old house was, and of course 30 mins further away from him. He did bring them over that evening and we took them for a walk and spoke again about selling the house. After getting back to my place, he feel asleep on the couch. I went to my bed and the next thing you know here he comes climbing into bed with me, and trying to initiate sex.....which I politely turned down
The next morning I was not amused about his actions the day/night before so I mentioned that to him. I told him I found it odd that I had not heard from him for a few days, then all of a sudden at 10pm he is ready to drop everything and come over, and not to mention assume that he can climb into bed with me and try to have sex. He apologized for trying to have sex. He also said he felt like he was going back into "his hole" since selling the house and the finality of closing on it. We spoke about other things and basically I reiterated to him that I am moving forward with or without him, and that I would be fine moving on in my life if things between him and I did not work out. I also mentioned that I thought he could continue to live in this limbo forever, but that I could and would not.
He said he is still trying to get to know me again, even though he knows I am still the same person. I politely corrected him and said "I am not the same person I used to be since BD" ..... he agreed. He likes the changes he has seen in me. I told him that I would be fine if he filed D papers and he said "I didn't say I wanted to file for D." He then said something that I think I know what he meant, but am still trying to decide if I am right. He said "I want physical touch with you, and I want to be intimate with you and I still have love for you." He then said, "that's why I signed 'love H' in your birthday card." I THINK HE IS TRYING TO TELL ME THAT HE LOVES ME BUT JUST DOESN'T WANT TO COME OUT AND SAY IT???
Anyway.....we spoke about other things and in no certain terms I told him that I never wanted to see his parents ever again because of how they treated me during this separation, and all of the horrible things they said about me. And if I am honest, they never really cared for me anyway. They never asked about me, my life, my family and never expressed interest in getting to know me at all. I told him that I realized that by me telling him that I didn't want to see parents it could also make him never want to see me again, but I am willing to take that risk. I told him I did not marry him for his family. He said he appreciated me telling him all of that. We ended up spending the rest of the day together, and had dinner and nice conversation.
So, I guess I will see what happens now. Sometimes I feel like I want to go ahead and proceed with the D because
- is this man really ever going to be able to make me trust him every again. He STILL hides texts messages - will he ever be able to be transparent with me - he is still speaking to that female client of his who he is so reluctant to give up their "friendship" .... the client he wanted to pursue having a relationship with - is he ever going to be able to pay off all his bills - is he going to let his guard down - is he ever going to be able to be happy with what he has - does he really want to be with me, or is he just afraid of being alone
So, I am continuing to move forward with my life, and continuing to try and answer all these questions
Just read a bit and wanted to chime in here just a little bit as a few things jumped out at me in your post.
Originally Posted By: skm0619
I was driving back to work after just leaving H, and he called me to tell about how reality continues to sink in, and how sorry he was about putting me in the position of wanting to sell the house. He said he is really trying to express his feelings and emotions and wanted to call me and let me know how he was feeling, instead of sending it in a text. I thanked him for that.
One thing I have learned with MLCrs is the driving source, understand that this crisis is a form of depression. Throughout this depression will be waves of guilt as they spiral to the bottom you will see just what he is showing 'what have I done' but they still seem not to be able to help themselves and continue to do the things they believe will make them happy.
Originally Posted By: skm0619
Didn't hear from him for the next 2 days, which I thought was odd. I texted him asking if I could have the dogs as I have several days off. He immediately called me and said he could bring them over right then if I wanted. It was 10pm so him offering that was a bit odd to me, and given the fact that I moved 30 minutes further away from where the old house was, and of course 30 mins further away from him. He did bring them over that evening and we took them for a walk and spoke again about selling the house. After getting back to my place, he feel asleep on the couch. I went to my bed and the next thing you know here he comes climbing into bed with me, and trying to initiate sex.....which I politely turned down
So in a way you threw out a line and he quickly reacted. I see his reaction, and the stunt in the bedroom as an anchor check. He hid till you contacted him as he is dealing with the house selling, I know you wanted the dogs but this would have been a good time to let him sit in it a bit IMHO. Something you will have to do through this .... the MLCr has to figure this out for a bit on their own.
Originally Posted By: skm0619
The next morning I was not amused about his actions the day/night before so I mentioned that to him. I told him I found it odd that I had not heard from him for a few days, then all of a sudden at 10pm he is ready to drop everything and come over, and not to mention assume that he can climb into bed with me and try to have sex. He apologized for trying to have sex. He also said he felt like he was going back into "his hole" since selling the house and the finality of closing on it. We spoke about other things and basically I reiterated to him that I am moving forward with or without him, and that I would be fine moving on in my life if things between him and I did not work out. I also mentioned that I thought he could continue to live in this limbo forever, but that I could and would not.
Its good you called him on his stunt. However the highlighted portion .... just like here ... actions not words, don't tell him what you are doing ... just do it, if he catches up great, if not ... its on him.
Originally Posted By: skm0619
He said he is still trying to get to know me again, even though he knows I am still the same person. I politely corrected him and said "I am not the same person I used to be since BD" ..... he agreed. He likes the changes he has seen in me. I told him that I would be fine if he filed D papers and he said "I didn't say I wanted to file for D."
I would caution about planting this seed. He may be one of the types who will just go through the crisis without the need to file and you may get fed up and file yourself, but seems this approach is more of a bluff you are calling... you may very well be fine if he filed, but I do not think this is something you truly want so if you do not ... do not bring it up, if you do .. again, actions ... just file if thats what you want to do and you are ready to move on. When I find myself here I recall the quote "I may give up, but not today" that helps me get through one more day.
Originally Posted By: skm0619
He then said something that I think I know what he meant, but am still trying to decide if I am right. He said "I want physical touch with you, and I want to be intimate with you and I still have love for you." He then said, "that's why I signed 'love H' in your birthday card." I THINK HE IS TRYING TO TELL ME THAT HE LOVES ME BUT JUST DOESN'T WANT TO COME OUT AND SAY IT???
He may love you ... but at this point its not quite enough is it ... given the list you have posted below that I will address.
Originally Posted By: skm0619
- is this man really ever going to be able to make me trust him every again. He STILL hides texts messages - will he ever be able to be transparent with me - he is still speaking to that female client of his who he is so reluctant to give up their "friendship" .... the client he wanted to pursue having a relationship with - is he ever going to be able to pay off all his bills - is he going to let his guard down - is he ever going to be able to be happy with what he has - does he really want to be with me, or is he just afraid of being alone
So, I am continuing to move forward with my life, and continuing to try and answer all these questions
Thats quite a list ... about 'him'. To truly move forward this list will have to become more about you than him. I suspect once the selling of the house subsides you will see him drift a bit further as he checks off his list of "Things that make the MLCr happy" and even after that list is done it takes time for them to come to terms that there is something else off.
You are doing well in this, use this time to work on you. You will not be sorry you did regardless of the outcome.
I agree with what you have said. As much as I would like to think he is progressing in this MLC, he continues to show me that he isn't.
I want to believe that he is doing things and making decisions with less selfishness, but unfortunately he isn't. As much as I would like to think that when he returns a call, or answers a text message (when before he wouldn't), is a sign he is improving, honestly these are things that most polite, non selfish people do without having to think about it.
I really do mean it when I say I would be fine if he filed for D. But I know that he won't because he lacks the courage to make such a difficult decision. I have already filed in the past, and he didn't sign the papers, so if there is going to be any D at this point and time......it will be filed by H, not me.
I haven't brought that subject up in a very long time, and I don't plan on bringing it up again. He knows how I feel, and I am pretty sure he can sense that my life continues to move forward and quite frankly has improved since all of this non sense has happened, and his remains stagnant.
It is a long list of things about HIM, but I guess I need to see that he is making changes in those areas before I would even consider taking steps to think about any kind of reconciliation. If he cant be transparent, or feel like he has to still hide certain things, then he definitely is not the man for me. I know that all of that is about control for him, and that is something he has to figure out on his own.
I can totally see where people just decide that this is too much work and decide to move on without their spouse.
I have been there ... its really easy to get caught up in every little move they make and analyze it trying to predict a tunnel emergence ... truth is... MLC takes time and a watched pot never boils.
As far as the D issue is concerned ... the way I have personally approached it is this: I am coming up on about 4 years of this, I do not really consider myself married at this point but according to the state I still am at the moment. The D is in process and I have no idea how long it will take before its finalized, again ... almost 4 years later. That paper that will say "Cali you are officially divorced" at this point is not going to change my life, nor what I do. May only give a semblance of closure but I really don't think the LBS will get that from the D papers as this all makes no sense how the MLCr seems to explode like a buried torpedo leaving the LBS dazed and confused for some time. Bottom line, the D does not change my day to day, maybe one day when I decide to enter into a relationship and it moves forward then we will see, but no sense wasting energy towards that as right now I have plenty of work to do on myself.
The 'List of Him" .... I get it .. I really do. I think after all we have been through its really easy to set up criteria of what we need to allow them back in, however ... he has yet to knock on the door in that way, and until he does making such a list only fuels into the negative/punishment of all this. I entered into a relationship last year, it only lasted a few months and ended. I was thinking during that time how strange, for me to be with my MLCr I required a list about 10x larger than yours, yet for this new person I was open to about anything. That's when I realized I still wanted to punish her for what she did .... and I get it ... we need to trust them and they demolished that, but you know what? Its up to them to earn our trust ... it is not up to us to tell them how to do it.
I had a touch and go about 2 years ago, I had a similar list, the transparency was one, know what happens? They show you what the want to show you, they do what they want to do .... in my case she had a second phone. Yup ... 10 months later I discover the OM is still in the picture, she just went to deeper lengths to preserve that rush. I only share this to show that until they are out of this crisis and show full remorse and willingness to earn our trust and rebuild the relationship its pointless to have a To-Do list That list should be a simple "What I want in a partner" tyupe list and be applied across the board. I recall reading something some time back about how if one has to waste their energy looking around and making sure that person is faithful then its really not a relationship any of us would want.
He is not there just yet, till then look inward and see what you can do to become a better person for your own sake.
As far as the D issue is concerned ... the way I have personally approached it is this: I am coming up on about 4 years of this, I do not really consider myself married at this point but according to the state I still am at the moment. The D is in process and I have no idea how long it will take before its finalized, again ... almost 4 years later. That paper that will say "Cali you are officially divorced" at this point is not going to change my life, nor what I do. May only give a semblance of closure but I really don't think the LBS will get that from the D papers as this all makes no sense how the MLCr seems to explode like a buried torpedo leaving the LBS dazed and confused for some time. Bottom line, the D does not change my day to day, maybe one day when I decide to enter into a relationship and it moves forward then we will see, but no sense wasting energy towards that as right now I have plenty of work to do on myself.
Cali, I think that the timing is what alot of us have a problem with. In my case the D papers are ready to sign and it's just less than a year from BD.
Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
The 'List of Him" .... I get it .. I really do. I think after all we have been through its really easy to set up criteria of what we need to allow them back in, however ... he has yet to knock on the door in that way, and until he does making such a list only fuels into the negative/punishment of all this. I entered into a relationship last year, it only lasted a few months and ended. I was thinking during that time how strange, for me to be with my MLCr I required a list about 10x larger than yours, yet for this new person I was open to about anything. That's when I realized I still wanted to punish her for what she did .... and I get it ... we need to trust them and they demolished that, but you know what? Its up to them to earn our trust ... it is not up to us to tell them how to do it.
So, you think that we should have a list for us. A list for our improvement and about things that we need. But, we might make a list that our mlc'er might not ever be able to live up to.
Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
I had a touch and go about 2 years ago, I had a similar list, the transparency was one, know what happens? They show you what the want to show you, they do what they want to do .... in my case she had a second phone. Yup ... 10 months later I discover the OM is still in the picture, she just went to deeper lengths to preserve that rush. I only share this to show that until they are out of this crisis and show full remorse and willingness to earn our trust and rebuild the relationship its pointless to have a To-Do list That list should be a simple "What I want in a partner" tyupe list and be applied across the board. I recall reading something some time back about how if one has to waste their energy looking around and making sure that person is faithful then its really not a relationship any of us would want.
I agree with the list thing. If you don't have trust and transparency, there is no need for a list. I had a mini touch this weekend that I totally misread. I have to harden the eff up a bit more. I guess I was hoping that she would emerge from the tunnel before I had to sign the papers. Here in Texas, once both parties sign the D papers it goes to the judge. Once signed by him you have 30 days to make changes or cancel and then it is final. WOW! Seems fast to me.
Sorry to hijack skm...
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Cali, I think that the timing is what alot of us have a problem with. In my case the D papers are ready to sign and it's just less than a year from BD.
SBJ ... is there ever a 'good' time to recieve D papers as a LBS? We can not control this, just as we can not control what the MLCr does. I was served a day after my birthday, its never a 'good' time if you do not want the M to end.
Originally Posted By: SBJ
So, you think that we should have a list for us. A list for our improvement and about things that we need. But, we might make a list that our mlc'er might not ever be able to live up to.
I may not have been clear. Lists can become quite useful as I have shared here in several places about making a list for yourself. For those unaware of this list its 3 seperate lists:
1)10 things you like about yourself 2)10 things you do not like about yourself (These are not 10 complaints the MCLr has ... things you actually admit you should be better at) 3)10 things you admire in people of the same sex (Women/men you admire)
Print this list out, pic one item from #2 and replace it with an item from #3. This takes time, allow yourself time ... you will and should struggle, this is part of the process but important to keep in mind 'Continuous Improvement' is what you are aiming at here.
As far as a list for the MLCr should they want back in is dangerous, you are setting expectations, listing out punishments. My intent was to get to the point you have boundaries, non-negotiables that should be set regardless if its the MLCr or someone new. Personally I am not sure my MLCr and I will ever R or not, I am probably in the 5% club, however if she were to come to me and show the signs I am all to well educated on I may be open to it but I threw away that list of "She must do this, this and this or no dice" Understand the amount of pride they will have to swallow just to admit to themselves and you that they made a mistake. A person who survived this with his wife said it like this .... she is in a hole and stacking boxes to try to get out, she is doing the work ... you can either kick the boxes or allow her to stack them and crawl out (Notice no mention of helping her stack the boxes here)
Originally Posted By: SBJ
I agree with the list thing. If you don't have trust and transparency, there is no need for a list. I had a mini touch this weekend that I totally misread. I have to harden the eff up a bit more. I guess I was hoping that she would emerge from the tunnel before I had to sign the papers. Here in Texas, once both parties sign the D papers it goes to the judge. Once signed by him you have 30 days to make changes or cancel and then it is final. WOW! Seems fast to me.
Sorry to hijack skm...
I have read your sitch ... I would not call that a mini touch .... not sure what I would call it really as she may have just wanted to see your reaction and if she would be rejected ... anchor test at best, and I know its just nomenclature but its important to understand the difference as this goes on for you.
The thing to keep in mind is they are all sorts of messed up and it takes time for them to figure out things.
SBJ......no worries on the hijack I am so grateful that each of us can comment on the others thread. I know for me it really helps me to hear other people's perspective on things. We are all going through something so similar, and to be able to see it from different points of view is very helpful for me.
I know I am going to have to reconsider my "list" issues. I never thought about it being a punishment for H. I thought of it as ways for him to help me build trust again. He is the one who got himself in this mess and it is up to him to get himself out. We both know he is struggling (financially, mentally, emotionally and physically) he has acknowledged that, but I am leaving that mess up to him to figure out because he is the one who made it.
Am I punishing him by wanting him to be transparent with me? I'm not sure.....I just want him to stop doing things that he has to hide. For me, that shows he still has the thoughts and tendencies as he did while he was having the A....and that is something that I won't allow to happen to me again.
Caliguy......again, thank you for your thoughts. I am definitely someone who over analyzes everything. I am really trying to work on that.
I liked what you said about making a list that says "what do I want in a partner"......great advice. And this also applies to "what does H want in a partner."
she is in a hole and stacking boxes to try to get out, she is doing the work ... you can either kick the boxes or allow her to stack them and crawl out (notice no mention of helping her stack the boxes here)
THIS ^^^^ IS WHAT I NEEDED TO READ!!!! Something so simple, but makes so much sense I am not going to help him stack the boxes, or kick them out from under him, but I will continue to let him crawl his way out.
Even though I know he is doing the best he can, it still doesn't make it any easier. I am so ready for all of this SH*T to be over with But, honestly I don't really know if things will ever really be over, because with reconciliation or D, there will be different challenges. I am trying not to have expectations of him because when I do it only sets things up for failure.
Now that the house has sold there is nothing left between the two of us in terms of mortgage, accounts, insurance and etc....nothing that has both of our names associated with it. I guess that is some form of closure in some sense of the meaning
H says he wants to come and speak to my this evening. He is currently attending an event for some of his clients, but when that is over, he would like to come and speak to me.
Let me go back ..... about a week ago I was starting a long stretch of days at work (5 -12 hour shifts). Before those started we had dinner and we actually enjoyed each other's company. I started my shifts, and during that time, H did call me a few times the first couple of days, but for some reason I didn't answer his texts or calls. I am not really sure why, maybe I was testing him, or punishing him, which I know is immature. He called again, I didn't answer. Well needless to say 7 days went by and we had not spoken or texted. One day I went to my car after work and there was a card in it from H, saying "I want you to know I have been thinking about you, and I hope everything is ok." A few more days went by and I finally told him thank you for the card.
Last evening, I called him to ask if I could have the dogs because I have several days off. We ended up speaking about those days we didn't speak to each other. H said he was sad that happened and he felt himself "going back into his hole" again. He said he felt "lonely" also. He said he didn't like that I was "ignoring" him and now he knows what that feels like and he didn't like it. He asked if there was a reason I wasn't responding to him?
I told him that I was very grateful that he continues to work on himself, and that I am also working on myself, but was curious if there was ever going to be a time that we would work on "us"??? I feel like he gives up easily if things don't happen the way he wants them to, or if I don't respond the way he wants me to. An example of that is last night he said to me "you know I have love for you." I think that is his way of saying he loves me.......still not sure. He then proceeded to say "I know you need to hear 'I love you' from me" he then said "after spending time with you last week I felt like I was ready to tell you, but then I didn't speak to you for those days I changed my mind." Seriously??? I got upset when he said that and told him "if I act a certain, or don't act a certain and you make decisions based off of that, then we are in BIG trouble." I then said "that is what got us in this position in the first place."
We discussed other things and he said he feels like he is ready to start to move forward and work on "us." I'm leary of this......
I was reading TxHubby's post about how he has decided to stay with his wife because even though she hurt him horrifically, he knows she isn't perfect. He also said he knows she is capable of lying, cheating and betraying....because she has already done that in the past. But, he also said she has owned her actions and is remorseful and has worked toward repairing their relationship with great sacrifice.
I know that I love H, and I know that he has said he is sorry multiple times and does regret the A. But is that enough? I feel like he continues to not open up and share things that I would like him to. He still has trouble with being vulnerable, being transparent and is still pretty selfish. Maybe I want that from H and I don't feel like I am getting that, and that is why I do things to punish him
Not sure if moving forward is the right thing for us right now? Will I ever know when the time is right....if it ever is
I have detached more this past week and I have enjoyed being on my own, and not having to wonder or think about what H is doing. Do I really want to get back into that again with him?
skm, I always enjoy your updates. I think it is the hope that is so palpable for you. I am nowhere in my own situation and don't speak from experience, but your words say that you are not ready because you do not trust him. I think you have to listen to yourself.
I don't think it has to be an all or nothing proposition. I would let him talk, try not to interrupt, let him make his proposal, whatever it is going to be. And then tell him you need time to process it, you need time to think it through. I would tell him that you love him (if you do) but are not interested in a false start that would set the relationship back even further.
I would want to know what he had done to work on himself. How he envisioned a new marriage and how long he thought that would take (I've seen threads where it takes years, does he get that, is he ready to commit to it)? If he thinks all will be well in two weeks, that would be a huge red flag.
Seems like going slowly, dating, setting up regular times to discuss things, and identifying places you guys got off track in the past would be really beneficial. I've become jaded about marriage counselors, so I think you have to decide if counseling would be a good thing for you guys.
I have been wanting to stop by and say hello to you :-) You have really come leaps and bounds in your sitch. It is pretty incredible to read. You are this great example of dropping the rope, doing a 180, and making choices for you alone ... and then comes H (ta da!) peaking around the corner, and right when you are about to give up. You have shown how doing that actually can flip the distance-pursuer dynamic. Then you get this boost in confidnece, which consequently leads to more detachment.
So now here he is and you are wondering "wait a minute, is this real? or, is this really what I want now? If it is real, can I even trust this?" Sigh. It's so hard in it's own way, because while the emotional pain is not as crippling as post-BD, the sitting on the fence can be torturous in it's own way. You feel like you need to make a decision now. And how do you decide?
It is so interesting because your sitch is one of the ones that I thought would turn this way. Not even sure why, just a feeling I had. I have learned to trust my gut feelings more than anything. What does your gut feeling say about all this? I mean heart and brain aside? Without overthinking, what do you think you should do here? ... there is so much to be said for that little voice inside. It just knows.
When my H did his turn around, my gut told me to take it much, much slower than I did. That was hard because we had kids, but also because I was still so fearful/confused/traumatized. Looking back now, I think my gut was right. I think we should have taken it slower.
I can't really tell you one way or the other. What I would say is that you don't even have to make a decision at all. Things will unfold in time. As You know, you cannot control if he is consistent, if he will hurt you again one day, or if he will bail once you let your guard down. Are you afraid of that? That is ok, that is natural and you need to protect yourself.
Here is what I found the most telling about your post. Not that H is coming around and pursuing harder as he feels you slipping away--that is actually kind of predicable. What is telling is that you are punishing him and you know it. I totally love your honesty BTW. So are you punishing him so that he will pursue you more? Or are you testing if this effort from him is real and genuine? Or are you totally just bitter and resentful and want to hurt him?
There is no right answer, but I am more curious than anything. You don't want to be in any R where you feel a need to punish someone do you? I wonder what you can do about that. Can you work on yourself more before committing to work on things with him? And can you explore your thoughts and feelings while maintaining a healthy friendship with him and see how that feels? I mean it's not healthy or normal to care for someone and punish them right?
If you read my sitch, you will see for that all the time I did not spend on me--looking inside, challenging myself to change, learning to be healthier and happier despite my M--well it still totally bites me in the bvtt. Time is our friend and there is always more of it :-)
Just my thoughts when I read this. You are doing fab! Please keep posting!
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Blu and Ownit......thank you so much for your replies.
Well, the night did not turn out very well. H came over, we took the dogs for a walk. Didn't really speak about much, just chit chat. We got back to my place and he started falling asleep on the couch. I told him that I thought he should go home if he was tired. He then got up to make some coffee (I guess to help him stay awake). He continued to chat about things that were of no significance to what I thought we were going to speak about.
I got up, got ready for bed. H asked "are you going to bed now".... I thought it was pretty obvious what I was doing
I told him that he should go home and I hope he had a safe drive home. He just stood there. He said "I'm sorry that we didn't end up speaking about what I planned on talking about" and then of course he apologized....which seems to be his "go to" whenever he doesn't do something he says he will. I told him that I didn't accept his apology because if it really meant enough to him he would put aside how he was feeling and speak to me about what he initially came to talk about.
He said the same things I have been hearing for a few months now in regard to him having a hard time expressing how he feels, how he doesn't know how to make himself vulnerable and things of that nature. I told him that at some point all of this is going to have to stop being about how he feels and what he wants. I politely reminded him that he needs to start thinking about me, and what I have been going through in all of this, and for once maybe he could think about what I might want or how I feel.
We spoke about other things and then we somehow got onto the subject of the OW. I thought I knew all of the details of the A, but as I found out tonight I was wrong. I guess this is what they call "trickle truth" ...... just stinks that it happened almost 20 months post BD. He told me that during the A, he sent naked and graphic photos of himself to the OW, and that she did the same. I think they might have also sent graphic vidoes to each other too. To this day he says that he only had sex with her one time.....something I still have a hard time believing. The A went on for over 3 years (she did not live in the same city). They only knew each other 2 days before sleeping together and this continued for the 3 years following....this is why I don't believe they only had sex once.
I'm not really sure why, but this information about he photos and video made me so angry with him. I told him he needs to tell me everything, and he swore that was it. I still don't believe him, and now more then ever I don't know if I can ever trust him.
He told me that he has made the decision that he wants to make this work between us. I asked him why and he said because he loves me. He said he knows it is hard for me to understand this, but he made a commitment to me and he wants to stand behind that commitment and the vows he made. I just sat there and starred at him. I really wonder if this man has any clue about what comes out of his mouth sometimes
It was late and I wanted to go to bed. I told him he could sleep on the couch. He said he assumed he would be sleeping in the bed with me......uh NO!!!!
He went to the upstairs guest room and I went to bed. I could not stop thinking about him sending the photos and the videos. I couldn't get it out of my mind the fact that he continues to lie to me. After about 15 minutes I went upstairs, woke him up and told him that I could not get the image of him taking graphic naked photos and videos of himself and sending them to her out of my head......I asked him to leave and he did.
I am hoping that he gives me some space to think about all of this. I have always gone with my gut, it hasn't ever let me down before. I just feel that him continuing to lie, and be deceptive to me, might be the nail in the coffin.
You said the night didn't go well, but you learned things you didn't know before. He was more honest with you than he has been in the past (although yes it sounds like he wasn't completely honest). He told you he wants to make it work between the two of you. These are all good things.
I've read loads of return stories on this and other sites. They don't come back full of remorse and telling the full truth of what happens. Perhaps you are expecting too much too soon. I'll let Blu and those who have been there take it from here. I just don't think it sounded that bad. Progress is rarely linear, it happens in fits and starts.
skm...since my sitch is nowhere near where you are right now I have no advice, but it does seem that the saying of believing 1/2 of what they say still holds true. At least he is trying to open up to you. I would assume that is a step in the right direction. I hope and pray that things are able to work out for you both.
I read in another woman's testimony that her H came home and she didn't think that she would be able to let go of the things that he had done and the resentment that she had built up, but that with the help of God, she was able to cover those thoughts with the love for her husband. I assume that it would take alot of love and patience to get thru that, but it is possible.
And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” - Matthew 19:26
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Just reading your updates thought I would chime in on how I see it. Totally get where you are coming from, and the hurt that is attached with it. I know when I first learned of the A I was furious, livid, you name it as long as it was attached to something that resembled anger I felt it. Then there was the coming to grips of it all, accepting it and I thought I had dealt with it. When she came back she opened up and told me how it happened, why it happened all from her perspective ..... it was like I went to the garage and had to open up that box of hurt and deal with it all over again. Then taking the details and lining them up with timelines the betrayal of is all rushed over me like a tsunami. You have to figure out what it is you can deal with .... the reasons he stalled and did not want to talk is in fear of how you would react .... bright side is at least he is attempting to come clean with you. It hurts, it stings and it its you who has to deal with the pain and the fall out.
My advice .. do not get hung up on the particulars ... It was an A that he admitted to, does it really matter if they had at it once or 10 times? Does it matter if they swapped pics, emails, love notes, coupons to the grocery store? It was an affair .. many things we do not approve of happens in those and all we can do is decide how much we really want to know in order to move on. Key part of it all is moving on.
I had to ask myself ... does it matter NOW, right this very minute .. you can not undo the past. Many people (myself included) just can not get over the past and become stuck ... its hard to drive that car to the next destination when you are staring out the back window. That's when I decided ... ya know what, I do not have to live with what she did, that's a reflection on her and something she will always carry ... no need for me to carry that box, she packed it with all those things that come with an affair she can carry it.
You may need details of the A, you may not .. you need to decide what you want as far as information. If he is simply unloading it on to you to ease the guilt set the boundary and stop him .... its his burden to carry ... consequences of his actions MLC or not.
It definitely sounds like he wants a second chance I never got to that space so Im not sure how all this must feel take some time to decide what you want and need and this point-
You said you can trust your gut
read the threads on piecing maybe to see what others have done to get through the beginning phase and dealing with lack of trust
Someone once told me -Its more important to trust ourselves.. then we can trust our choices and even though some things may be risky and all R are we can trust that we can take care of ourselves ..no matter what
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
Thank you all for the great responses. I decided to take the weekend to think about things and to make some decisions about how and what I want to do.
H and I spent time over the weekend together. He helped me out with some things around my place. He was always one who wanted to "fix" things cause he said it made him feel wanted and needed. So, I let him do some things for me. I thanked him and said I appreciated him taking his time to do that for me.
We had a few conversations regarding the last conversation he and I had, and I told him that I just don't trust him. He said he understood, and that in order for me to start to trust him he has to show me what I need. He was never one who was really good with follow through, unless of course it was something that he would benefit from, so I will wait and see. I did let him know that I don't exactly know if and when I will trust him again because of how badly I was hurt, but if I am going to continue to allow him in my life I think it is only fair that I give him that opportunity.
I have realized that I am doing and saying things to punish him, because in all honesty, I still want him to hurt as bad, if not worse, then I did or still do. I know I could say things differently, or not say them at all, but I am making a conscious decision to say things because I know it will hurt him. I really need to figure out why I still feel the need to hurt him, and how I can stop, because there may come a day when he has had enough.
He continues to work on himself, which is a huge thing for him. I have stopped going to my IC because I was always so upset when I left after my session, and I felt like I wasn't really making much progress. I found that coming to the boards has continued to help me. I do think that if H and I are going to continue on this road we might need to start seeing a MC. His IC also does MC, and is familiar with our sitch because he was part of our retreat we attended last year.
A concern I do have is that I have heard from H what I describe as .... a lot of talk and no action. Meaning he says he wants to do something, or be better at doing certain things, but in my mind I feel he isn't.
-He says he wants to express his feelings more -He wants to be better with his follow through -He wants to show me more affection -He wants to get his finances in order
Something I am having a difficult time with is that H says he wants to trust me again. The reason for that is how I reacted when I found out about the A ...... I yelled and screamed at him A LOT, and showed so much anger. He also had some bad "karma" happen to him after BD, and he got himself into financial trouble.....he blames that on me too, and that is where his trust issues come from.
The one constant this weekend was that H said he knows in his heart that he wants to work this out between the two of us. I want to believe him, but I am still very cautious about all of this.
Ownit......H has said that he knows it will take some time for me to trust him again, but he did say that he wonders why I cant move forward. A statement like that makes me wonder if he thinks I should be over all this? I am taking all of this very slowly. This is something I definitely can not rush into. I just wish he would show me more remorse. I also really want him to be more transparent. He still is secretive with certain things.....especially his phone. He also has doesn't ask me to come into his house after I drop him off after we have been out. I do wonder if there is something he doesn't want me to see. I asked him to share text messages, or show me emails and he said by him doing that it makes him feel that I don't trust him.......I DON'T!!!!! I just wonder if I should ever give up on trying to see any of those? I know he is hiding text messages from a female client of his because he knows she is an issue for me.
Blu......I know that I do need to figure out why I continue to get my jabs in with H. I feel like part of it is to punish him, but I also feel like he hasn't ever really allowed me to express my feelings during all of this, so I am getting it all out. I do wonder if you are right when you say that I am doing this to see if he will keep pursuing me? I need to continue to focus on me and my life, and if he continues to come along for the ride then that is an extra bonus
SBJ......I so wish I had the amount of faith that you have. It might make all of this a tad bit easier. I have always said that H is someone who has really tried my patience.........I guess he is still doing that to this day. I just need to decide if I have the patience in me to continue with all of this.
Caliguy......I look forward to your comments. You have a way of making me look at things differently. I know that his A had way more details involved in it then I will ever want to know. It isn't going to change the fact that it happened, so I need to learn to let those things go if I am going to move forward with all of this............it just svcks knowing certain things, because some of those things you will never be able to get them out of your head.....the visuals are just too strong.
Peacetoday.......I agree that it is more important to trust ourselves, so then we can trust our choices. I trust myself implicitly, its H that I don't trust. I often wonder if I ever will again. I trusted him before and look what he did
I need to keep the focus on me and keep GAL, 180, drop the rope and continue to move forward. I really hope I can because sometimes I feel like interactions with H set me back
I love what you posted. You are being honest and raw, and you are really thinking about why you are doing what you are doing. Sounds like you are right on track. You don't have to decide anything today or tomorrow. Just keep moving forward and the chips will fall into place. If your gut tells you not to trust him, then don't. You have learned in this last year to trust yourself always and first. Until he shows you a man that is loyally and open, then you can safely and cautiously keep as you are. No harm in that. This process is good for him too. He will learn how to treat you and what he needs to do to be in any long term R. He has got to dig a little deeper and give more of himself. I hope for his own sake he can do that!
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Just bumping this up /\/\/\ so people can see Caliguy's most recent comment. He only pops in now & again, but he is usually a few steps ahead of the rest of the LBS pack. This lets us know what may come later on down the road for us...GALing, detaching, or tripping on ourselves again.
M: 49, W: 45 T: 22 M: 15 S14, S11, S9 BD: Jan '16 W files: Oct '16 D final: June '18
skm...I ask God every hour of every day to help me. I have found that He has helped me with my anger, confusion, and definitely my patience. I hope and pray that He will help guide you as well.
If he really wants the marriage, he will have to figure it out for himself how to save it.
If you really want the marriage, you will have to be able to trust him again without wanting to hurt him. I know this is possible, but it takes something that is hard for us to do after we have been hurt so much...forgiveness.
Personally, I think that total transparency is the key to trust. Isn't that a boundary that most of us LBS's want in our marriages.
You seem like such an awesome woman that is full of love and life. I know the hurt, because I have been there too, but I also know that God is good and will make good come from this trial for all of us. Stay strong and take things one day at a time.
>>>>>>> But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. -Colossians 3:8, 12-13
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Reading along .... and yup I have a couple thoughts about things that jumped out to me.
He wants to trust you again? .... yeah .. go ahead and read that again. He had the A, you reacted. To me I see this as a mixture of projection and reading throughout what you have shared he is doing a bit of blame shifting. Mine did similar till I realized what was happening and a good ole truth dart will typically stop that one in its tracks. Its true you can not control others and only control your reaction ... but given the emotions involved in finding out your H/W had an A ... there will be emotions, we would be more concerned if there was not reaction. I know after I found out and started processing it I called her a Who-re, something I would NEVER do nor say and I will never forget it, at the time I meant it, was the only time in all this I actually seen her stop and realize what was going on. Now .. sure I wish I hadn't said it but I forgave myself and realized it was my breaking point.
DO NOT beat yourself up over the past (you can not undo it) ... I have mentioned this before .. not yours .. not his .. keep your eyes forward.
The other thing I wanted to say, you mentioned MC. First you must make certain there is not a 3rd party involved any longer. My MC told me MC will not work with 3 people. Secondly ... get someone else .. DO NOT use his IC, you need someone not biased one way or the other .... he needs his IC and to be able to trust that person and a good MC will push you both in a non-biased way.
Caliguy, I think you are spot on. I find it perplexing how many times I have read here that ICs go back and forth between MC and even that they are willing to speak with one party alone (once MC has started). The MC we had was great because she only did MC, she would not speak to either of us without the other one present, and she never took sides. She was honest with us and fair, but she also pressed us to see our part in things. I read on another thread yesterday that a counselor emailed a poster and told him his M was over. That just boggles my mind and seems downright unethical in practice!
Either way, if you are thinking about MC skm, perhaps wait until you both agree you are all in and committed to giving it your best shots. It is a grueling and at times painful process and I would hate to see you go in prematurely only to give up. There is always more time to visit this later, when you are sure you want this M to work.
In terms of him not trusting you, well I agree that is classic projection! You were reacting to his betrayal. When my H dropped the bomb on me I did and said all kinds of crazy. And it continued for awhile! I am not proud of it, but I certainly don't beat myself up over it. Not that my H is any kind of saint, but he has never held it against me because he acknowledges it was all a reaction to what he was doing. I hope your H can get to that point too. I tend to think it is okay to apologize for mistakes we made without having to shift blame--meaning that while you are sorry for what you did/said, you still accept that it was a reaction to what he was doing/saying that otherwise would not have occurred. But ultimately, it doesn't matter who is at fault, it matters that we care that we hurt someone and that we are sorry. To be in a M, we have to care that we hurt the other person, even if they hurt us too (or worse).
And Caliguy, if you only called your W a who-re once, well then I think you demonstrated some amazing restraint! lol.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Last night H and I went to dinner. It was a nice evening and we had good conversation. As far as talking goes, I have stepped back and started to let H initiate things. For me, it feels like I am the one who asks all the questions, and that makes me feel that H isn't really interested in me or what is going on in my life. There have definitely been more "moments of silence" since I have started doing that.
We went back to his house because I needed to get my vehicle. He actually asked me to come inside this time, and to sit down......I was very shocked. He was falling asleep on the couch, followed by more moments of silence, so I decided to go home. He walks me out, says be careful going home and then gives me a kiss. I just feel that all of those moments are forced and are not coming naturally for him. It's as if he feels that he HAS to do it, not because he WANTS to do it
The last two times I have left his house, I pull out of his driveway and think ...... "I can not do this anymore." I just don't feel like he gets it. I don't think he understands how I need him to try harder, and to show me that he really wants to work on this. If I am going to put myself back out there with him, and to put my heart back out there, I feel that he needs to "dig deeper" and show me that he wants to do this with me. I just don't feel that he is committed to this. And not to mention, the lack of transparency from him is still a huge issue for me.
He called earlier today, I did not take his call because I didn't want to talk to him. As I was writing this he called again. He was asking if he could come over and bring the dogs. I was pretty short with my answers. He could tell something was wrong and he asked me if I was mad about something.
I told him that I was upset about how he continues to treat me, and that I just don't feel that he understands what I need him to do.
-I need him to be transparent with me -I need him to really understand the level of commitment this is going to take -I need him to stop making all of the things he wants to do a priority -I need him to stop trying to control the situations we are in because he is afraid of how he will feel
He responded by saying, "that makes me sad." I told him I don't really believe that because if that was true then you would be doing everything that you needed to do to let me know you really want to do this with me. I then told him that I thought the two of us should not spend anymore time together because I don't think he understands what it is I need him to do.
He asked if he could come over and bring me dinner. I guess I will see if he shows up
Ownit, I have my days were I feel like there still is a lot of hope in this situation with H, but there are just as many days that I think I would be happier on my own.
As far as "not being willing to take crumbs from him".....I did that for the 10 years we were together. H definitely knows that I am not ever going to do that again. He knows I will call him out on his BS without any hesitation.
As I have said before he is struggling pretty bad financially since BD. I, on the other hand, am doing better financially. Likely because I don't have H around to spend all of my money Throughout our M, I have been the bread winner, and make quite a bit more then H. He knows that I don't NEED him in my life in any way, I WANT him in my life. So he knows that the days of "blowing smoke up my ass" are long gone
I've worked the past 3 days and this morning when I pulled into the parking lot, guess who was there waiting for me with a little morning snack? Yep...it was H. I was surprised to see him there. I thought it was very nice that he went out of his way to do that. He then offered to take my car and have it detailed......so I let him. Probably should not have let him do that, because that is why he is struggling financially, he spends money on things we/I can do without. Lord knows how much that car wash cost him?
Glad to here that you will not take any breadcrumbs from H anymore. At first I thought those breadcrumbs were baby steps but I realise that's all they were and now I will not accept that anymore.
Wow, your H sounds like he is in full pursuit! Do you think he sits in his apartment and thinks of the different ways he can see you! Waiting in the car park with a morning snack almost sounds very romantic!
Love the fact he took your car to the car wash too, wow, wow, wow!!! X
Me - 47 H - 45 D-16 M - 6 years Separated - May 16
Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
Great to see your update and also that you seem to see things clearly or at least more clear.
Originally Posted By: skm0619
Ownit, I have my days were I feel like there still is a lot of hope in this situation with H, but there are just as many days that I think I would be happier on my own.
It seems that it takes us, the LBS, time to see that we are able to live without them, but that we made a commitment to them that it is hard for us to break or let go of. You seem like a tremendously strong woman that any man would be proud to have beside him. Keep strong and take things one day at a time.
Originally Posted By: skm0619
As far as "not being willing to take crumbs from him".....I did that for the 10 years we were together. H definitely knows that I am not ever going to do that again. He knows I will call him out on his BS without any hesitation.
I agree that we should receive 100% from our spouses, because we have learned alot about giving of ourselves. We deserve them to give just as much as we give.
Originally Posted By: skm0619
As I have said before he is struggling pretty bad financially since BD. I, on the other hand, am doing better financially. Likely because I don't have H around to spend all of my money Throughout our M, I have been the bread winner, and make quite a bit more then H. He knows that I don't NEED him in my life in any way, I WANT him in my life. So he knows that the days of "blowing smoke up my ass" are long gone
Very similar to the rest of the situations here. I think that when they are in the tunnel they are oblivious to what they are doing...including spending.
We are learning or relearning how to stand on our own out of necessity and it feels liberating.
I like what you said...You don't NEED him...You WANT him in your life. That is awesome. Hopefully they will all come to the conclusion that we all don't need them, but we do want them in our lives.
Originally Posted By: skm0619
I've worked the past 3 days and this morning when I pulled into the parking lot, guess who was there waiting for me with a little morning snack? Yep...it was H. I was surprised to see him there. I thought it was very nice that he went out of his way to do that. He then offered to take my car and have it detailed......so I let him. Probably should not have let him do that, because that is why he is struggling financially, he spends money on things we/I can do without. Lord knows how much that car wash cost him?
Coly is right...he is in full pursuit mode...did he act like this when he was trying to get you to start a relationship with him?
Originally Posted By: Coly23
Hey skm, great update!
Glad to here that you will not take any breadcrumbs from H anymore. At first I thought those breadcrumbs were baby steps but I realise that's all they were and now I will not accept that anymore.
Wow, your H sounds like he is in full pursuit! Do you think he sits in his apartment and thinks of the different ways he can see you! Waiting in the car park with a morning snack almost sounds very romantic!
Love the fact he took your car to the car wash too, wow, wow, wow!!! X
Everyone loves a clean car...except us Jeep guys, we don't mind the mud, but it'd been just as awesome if he'd put some elbow grease into it and had done it himself...and cheaper too.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Coly......I used to think that any attention I would get from H after BD was good. Not anymore. I have pulled away from him considerably and he can feel it.
His way of showing love or love language is through "acts of service" so I can only assume that is what he is doing now, and why he showed up at my work.
Yes, my car was dirty and needed a wash, but for me those type of things are so trivial. But, for H, he puts A LOT of emphasis on how things look and how people will think about him if his car is dirty, or if he isn't wearing certain clothes, etc. Me, I am the total opposite.
I still have access to his bank account and saw that he took his vehicle to have it washed and he spent $130 on it. That is something I would NEVER do!! And remember this is coming from a man who is struggling financially. But for him that is not an issues because as long as his truck looks good and people see that, that is all that matters to him.
I don't want to seem ungrateful for what he is doing while pursuing me, but I just wish he wouldn't feel like he has to spend money he doesn't have or try to impress me by doing it. I tell him that he is "over compensating" and he doesn't need to do that......but that is his love language
I do see things more clear these days. I know that H shows his love for me by "acts of service" but that is something I am still learning to accept. I don't NEED anything, except the obvious (food, water and shelter) so when H does things for me to show me his love, I still have to tell myself that is what he is doing. He has such a hard time expressing himself verbally or emotionally, it can make things so difficult at times.
I have always been a pretty strong person.......very no nonsense kind of girl. I am the person who says what everyone else is thinking. There really isn't any topic of conversation that I feel uncomfortable having with others. I am the type to say "lets get it out there and talk about it" but I know everyone is not like that.
When we were dating he did pursue me but nothing too strong though. We dated long distance for a while so that made things difficult. When we were finally in the same country, we were living together, so that made things easier. But now I can see that made things too easy for H. He asked me the other day if I ever felt "like a princess" when we were together. I told him "no, because everything always had to be about you and what you wanted" ...... he didn't like that answer, but it was the truth.
I am grateful that he is doing things for me, trying to pursue me. I just wish he didn't feel like he had to spend money all the time to do it........money he definitely does not have to spend. I would have been just as grateful if he washed it himself, and put in "some elbow grease" ..... like you said
I can see how this would be annoying. I actually have the flip side of this going on. My H was always obsessed with his car and keeping it clean. Now in replay the car is filthy and hasn't been washed in months.
Try not to let his little peculiarities get to you. Those are not the things that define a man. We all spend our money in odd ways when other people look at it closely.
OwnIt.....I guess my real issue with all of the money thing is that he continues to have problems with insufficient funds. He goes to the movies and uses his credit card to pay for it. When he goes out to eat, he uses his credit card. And, when he did get his car washed and spent $130 on that, he used his credit card for that too.
I know we make decisions by how we were raised. I was raised that if you don't have the money then you don't do it, or you don't get to go....period. H, was raised TOTALLY different. He was raised that if you want it then get it, or if you want to go somewhere then go. You figure out the money later.
He has no money in savings. If he isn't able to work for a period of time, he has no way to support himself. The scary thing about that is he is self employed. So when he goes on vacation there is no "vacation time" built up to pay him for that time off.
He is going away at the end of the month with his family. His parents are paying for it all. They have no clue that he is in such financial hardship right now.....and he would never let them know either. He has gotten himself close to 50K in debt since BD (20 months) and that scares the crap out of me. If we work this out, I do not want to be the one to pay his bills off cause I did not reap the benefits of going to the movies, or going out to eat, or going on vacation.
Reading along .... much of your posts revolve around him ... not always a bad thing as this board is here for you and for that but I would like to try and help you as others helped me early on.
You can not control his actions, his spending, anything he does or thinks. I get it ... there is a fair amount of hurt, anger and frustration in your posts ... I have been there ... to be honest I have cycles where I do revisit that and have to catch myself from allowing myself to blame any situation on what she did and how she did it ... truth is I am responsible for my own situation and my own happiness just as you are responsible for yours.
I have not caught if you have an arrangement and his spending will not affect you ... if so greeat .... let him dig his own hole .. recall the story about the boxes? You are still worried about his boxes and his hole ... his circus his monkeys its not your responsibility any longer ... he is a big boy and can figure this out on his own.
One other fuzzy 2x4 I wanna smack you with. Read back your past 3-4 posts .... Can you see the score card you are keeping, the list of requirements you are creating in order for him to please you? You will have to address this at some-point regardless of the outcome. Keeping a score card will lead you down the bitterness path and will never serve you, having this secret list of requirements a person must fullfill is leading them straight to failure and falls directly inline with ... yes its a word we use here often EXPECTATIONS.
Try to find peace in all this .. .letting go a bit and allowing him his journey is really the only way otherwise he is going to drag you straight to the bottom of his hole with him and you will be fighting for boxes and neither one of you will get out.
Hey Cali.....a fuzzy 2x4 is always accepted and appreciated.
I agree that it is easy to get sucked back into the hurt, frustration and anger. I continue to work on this daily. I feel that for the most part I have let a lot of that go recently. Don't know if I'll ever be a able to let it all go though
As far as finances....we only have a very small arrangement. I continue to keep him on my health insurance plan, and he pays my cell phone bill and car insurance. That's it. We do not have any joint checking/savings accounts, the house sold recently so there is no longer a joint mortgage, he is not the beneficiary on any of my policies, and we do not have children.
The whole money thing for me is that I would like to at least see him try to make changes with his spending habits. He doesn't know how to "go without" things and that has been an issue for me. I am so thankful that I do not rely on him financially
How NOT to have expectations, and that damn score card.....something I continue to work on daily
I am standing firm at the top of the hole he continues to dig, and I will NOT allow myself to be sucked down into it with him
Hi Skm, I agree with Cali's advice - which is pretty much always spot on IMHO.
I would say, any time you find yourself thinking - I'd at least like him to....
Practice letting it go. You and he are separate beings. He will live his life as he will and you yours. Try and focus only on your side of the street.
It is freeing I promise you. Notice that when you do focus on what he does or doesn't do, it impacts negatively on your wellbeing and release it....he will do what he will and that's okay.
Xx
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
skm, you seem right on track from my side of the screen. I agree that $130 on a carwash is ridiculous. Also $50K in trivial spending is alarming--that would bother me a great deal! I also am a nurse, make more than my H, and I try to be frugal and responsible. I do not care much for fancy things. I also am one to lay it out there and no topic is off limits. (no wonder I like you so much :-)
I think an issue you are running into here is that while H is pursuing and speaking his LL (or whatever he is doing), none of that speaks to the core issues. I think pursuit, romance (princess cr-p) may work in the initial stages of a R, but not at this point. That is for the honeymoon stage, which is long and far gone.
Score card or not, if H wants to get your attention, I imagine he needs to do some personal reflection and soul searching. Sure he ended the A, has remorse, and is opening up about his thoughts and feelings. That is a must. Perhaps though, for you to be able to commit to working on things with him, you need to see genuine and lasting change. The type of change that you can live with, and for many years to follow.
Real change is the hard work and why I think piecing is so challenging. Real change is understanding why we say and do the things we do, what happened in our childhood and past, what we can control and what we can't, and what we need to do to move forward and have successful Rs with others. Real change stands the test of time. Then, after identifying all of that, we have to DO THE STUFF. It is so easy to fall back into our old patterns and it takes some grit and time to make new and better habits.
I wonder if there is a part of you that doesn't trust H, not only because of the betrayal, but because you are waiting to see signs of real change? If so, that would make sense to me. If people don't commit to doing the work and making the changes, then they will fall back into old patterns. For him, that was wandering away from the M and turning to someone else. ... So perhaps his spending is less of a scorecard and more of a reminder that he is still doing some of the same? Just my thoughts.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Sotto....I totally agree about focusing on my side of the street. I am watching him live his life, make his decisions and continue to watch him spend money he doesn't have. Now...the reason it does affect me is because if we do end up together at some point, how is him having all of that debt going to affect our situation?
For me, this is not about letting him go and live his life, this is about protecting me financially.
Blu (my sister from another mister)........
OMG.......you have totally hit the nail on the head for me....thank you
It is about not seeing change from him. I feel that I need to see something different from him. He knows the money/spending has been an issues, and obviously still is an issues. So why can't I expect to see some changes, and especially since we both know how it affected us in the past?
It doesn't mean that I am not still working on me, or am not thankful for the changes he has made, and the work he continues to do. I have not discounted that at all.
Thank you all again for all of the words of wisdom.
Personally I think it is too early for you to go for a targeted hit on his spending or anything else really.
I think you can talk to him in general about what hurdles you see to reuniting and what obstacles you might have together, as well as the boundaries that you have set.
For example, H thank you so much for your thoughtfulness in greeting me with breakfast and taking the car in. Those sorts of things show me how much you care and that you want to make me happy. I think we both know we have some obstacles in terms of trying to come back together. Some of them are obvious, such as third parties and communication, others are more logistical, including things like our financial goals.
I think laying these things out there for more generally and making him a partner in solving them would be more beneficial for you both. Otherwise I think you risk coming across as a harpie or a nag, neither of which would be good if the ultimate goal is to come back together.
I don't think MLC can be stopped suddenly, so what happens to the MLCer that suddenly turns back to the spouse without finishing their journey or while finishing it
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
Cali, I thought the same thing, but simply laughed inside and decided not to post anything. It's nice to see even thru strife we all manage to keep our strange sense of humor.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
skm...just checking in. I hope and pray all is well with you. Have a great week.
One day at a time...
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Not too much going on here. Just working and living life.
H and I spent last weekend together, and we had a really nice time. We spoke about how things are going with the two of us. We did have a few times where things could have gotten out of hand, but we both have learned that how we used to react to each other isn't going to work if we want to continue to move forward. I guess we are becoming grown ups
I still have issues with whenever I am at his house, he becomes someone different. The only way I can describe it is he becomes more closed off, or he retreats back into his hole. He doesn't invite me in, or if I end up inside he doesn't ask me to sit down. He doesn't make me feel welcome in his house.
One night after work, I went to his house because one of the dogs was hurt and we thought we were going to have to take her to the vet. I checked her out and we decided that we would just watch her and determine the next day if she was still not acting right we would take her. But, while at his house, he was distant, wasn't really talking much and acted like he was ready for me to leave. I got up, said I was leaving, he walked me to the car and tried to kiss me good bye.....I turned my face away from him. I told him everything I said above about not feeling welcome, and he of course shut down, but did say he could see why I felt that way. He said he didn't know why he does that, and he is "still working on things and being better about opening up." I was upset when I left and I could tell he was upset that I was upset. I just feel like he should be trying harder with this "working on things" stuff.
The next morning he was in the hospital parking lot waiting for me when I arrived at work. He had bought me a snack to eat. He then proceeded to apologize to me for the night before, and said he didn't want us to have any more conversations like that and he wants us to continue to move forward. He gave me a big hug and a kiss on the cheek. He even called me by a nickname he used to call me before BD. He even acknowledged that he hadn't called me that in a while.
I sometimes feel that I have to get upset, or tell him I don't want to see him for a few days, or tell him that how things are going are not working for me, etc, and then he freaks out and shows up at my work with a snack.
He left today to go on vacation with his family for 10 days. So we wont see each other for a while. He did say that he was going to try and have some serious conversations with his parents/brother about how they don't show emotion, or express how they feel to each other, and how he was raised as affected him in his adult life.
I think this will be a good thing with him being gone. I need some time for me to decide if what he has been doing is what I need from him in order to continue to move forward. Sometimes I question whether it is. I don't know if I am seeing the changes in his behavior that I need to continue doing this. He still is secretive, and is not always forth coming with things, and tells half truths.
Be careful about falling into destructive communication patterns and resuming pursuer/distancer.
For a couple of years as my H was wallowing and falling deeper into his MLC I could go at him and eventually get a reaction. It was only in those moments that I saw the old him emerge. Eventually even that brief glimpse went away. I always felt terrible afterward.
I think yours is doing this in reverse. My H will not let my daughter see his house even when they are driving near his town. She has even asked to see it twice and he ignores it. Maybe he doesn't like seeing you physically in that space because it brings the two worlds together for him and makes him own more what he has done, where in other places he is back to the older and better times.
Maybe you need to figure out where you are, b/c there are elements to piecing that are not in reconciling.
And If I read your thread right, You are open to reconcile, but not there yet, correct?
How do YOU FEEL about his spending issues? If he were OM you just met, would this be a red flag and if so, how would you deal with it or would you just move on?
Also, you posted something on your thread that was written by Raine, I think. It's Food for thought.
I feel like I wasted so many years of my life during all of this, just worrying and hoping and thinking about how it's going to end. Don't do that. Step away from it and find the joy in your journey right now. Because this truly is a gift. You're really going to like the person that you become on the other side of all of this. That's who you are saving. When you wake up from this life transition, you're going to realize that what you really want, what makes you happy, is not the same thing you're hoping for right now. And that's a really good thing.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
OwnIt.....I never thought me being in his home as bringing the two worlds together. When he is at my new place, he is so relaxed and acts like it is his home too. Neither one of us has lived together in the places we currently live in. I just want us to be comfortable in whatever environment we are in.
25....you are correct when you say that I am open to reconciling with H, but I am still not there 100%. I feel like I still need to see some changes in his behavior before I can fully commit.
As far as his spending.....I am still concerned that he continues to feel that it is okay to spend money on things he doesn't need. Or that he thinks it is okay to go to the movies, or wash his car, or go out to eat and put it on his credit card. For me, these are all things that he could go without.
If this was a different man...not a man who I had been married to for 10 years, and I knew he couldn't afford to do certain things but he did it anyway, it would definitely make me think twice about continuing a relationship with him.
I love my H, and I really do want to see him make changes and to make better choices with his money. In our relationship before BD, I was the one who was putting money away for retirement, and paying for vacations, etc. If things progress with H and we do reconcile, I know that will continue to be the case and I am okay with that. What I am NOT okay with his him not being willing to make changes with decisions he makes to spend money on frivolous things. This is where I am struggling.
He is on vacation right now (paid for by his parents). He mentioned that he shouldn't really be going away because he needs to work because he has bills he needs to pay, but he didn't mention that to his parents. This man is 44 years old and still can not communicate with his parents or have an adult conversation. They have no clue how much debt he is in.
I continue to work on me, and work on my reactions to things, and I am trying not to let his decisions affect me, but they are.
Have been keeping my distance.....still reading along though. But I have had some things come up and would love to hear opinions.
A week ago H went out of town. I drove him to the airport, and on the way we had a conversation about his besties.....who has been an issue in our marriage for some time. But that is a different topic I will speak about later.
We got to the airport, H was very affectionate hugging me and kissing me good bye, saying "try not to miss me too much" and "I will call you while I am away"......things of that nature. The first few days he was making effort to at least text me every morning to tell me to have a good day. I spoke to him once and it was a good conversation. The issues started when he would text and say he was going to call at a specific time and wouldn't, or I will call you after dinner, or before I go to bed......and he wouldn't. One evening, he sent me a text saying he would call me before dinner. I did not hear from him, but then several hours later he called me. I could tell he had either been drinking or was extremely tired. I could tell he was falling asleep and was having a difficult time staying awake. He said "I have had such a busy day spending time with my family on the beach, and doing fun things with my nieces and I am so exhausted." I told him I was going to hang up the phone and let him go because it sounded like he was tired and didn't sound like he really wanted to speak to me. He said "I do want to speak to you" but by that time I was annoyed that he didn't call when he said he would, and that he made me feel that I was not important enough to call when he said he would, and not to mention he made sure to tell me how tired he was because he was having so much fun with his family on vacation. I hung up the phone
I sent him a text the next morning and told him that "his behavior the evening prior reinforced to me that I was not a priority in his life and that I wasn't sure if I ever would be." He texted me the following day saying he was sorry the phone call was frustrating for me, and he hoped I had a good day. I never heard from him anymore after that. Four days have gone by and I am supposed to pick him up from the airport. Today I received a text saying...."here are my flight details, I land at 4pm, let me know where I should meet you."
A part of me doesn't even want to go to the airport to pick him up. I feel like he continues to do things that I am not okay with. If he can't even call when he says he is going to, then why would I think he is going to do the hard things I know I will need him to do later. When he left for vacation I told him I was worried that him being with his family would come between us......and I feel it did. It takes 5 seconds to send a text saying I am tired I'm going to bed, or dinner lasted longer then expected.
And......I also found out a few days ago that if I want to buy a new house, H will have to be either on the mortgage or the deed because we are still married, and it is considered community property because it would be bought with money that was acquired during the marriage. I am so upset about that because I do not want that, I want to buy it all on my own. My H never made one mortgage payment on our other house.....I did, and I know he isn't capable of making any mortgage payments on the new one either. I also paid for any and all repairs or upgrades that were done to the old house. Now, I have to put his name on my new one..
This leaves me in a situation I did not want to be in.
We got to the airport, H was very affectionate hugging me and kissing me good bye, saying "try not to miss me too much" and "I will call you while I am away"......things of that nature. The first few days he was making effort to at least text me every morning to tell me to have a good day. I spoke to him once and it was a good conversation. The issues started when he would text and say he was going to call at a specific time and wouldn't, or I will call you after dinner, or before I go to bed......and he wouldn't. One evening, he sent me a text saying he would call me before dinner. I did not hear from him, but then several hours later he called me. I could tell he had either been drinking or was extremely tired. I could tell he was falling asleep and was having a difficult time staying awake. He said "I have had such a busy day spending time with my family on the beach, and doing fun things with my nieces and I am so exhausted." I told him I was going to hang up the phone and let him go because it sounded like he was tired and didn't sound like he really wanted to speak to me. He said "I do want to speak to you" but by that time I was annoyed that he didn't call when he said he would, and that he made me feel that I was not important enough to call when he said he would, and not to mention he made sure to tell me how tired he was because he was having so much fun with his family on vacation. I hung up the phone
Ok so the blue text ... as long as he was doing as you wished things went smooth. Once he did not do as you wished ... or as he said .. that's when you became upset.
Lets just look at this for a second. You are putting expectations on when he will do and when he will do them, when he does not perform then this upsets you and it almost seems like you have to punish him .. i.e. hanging up the phone.
We can not control what anyone thinks nor what they do ... all we can control is how we react to it. I am all about boundaries ... ^^^^ this up there is not a boundary, its control.
Originally Posted By: skm0619
A part of me doesn't even want to go to the airport to pick him up. I feel like he continues to do things that I am not okay with. If he can't even call when he says he is going to, then why would I think he is going to do the hard things I know I will need him to do later. When he left for vacation I told him I was worried that him being with his family would come between us......and I feel it did. It takes 5 seconds to send a text saying I am tired I'm going to bed, or dinner lasted longer then expected.
Look into this feeling further. Insecurities are a relationship killer and your posts do have several scattered around ... not surprising given the details of whats happened but its something you now must deal with and not try to force him to fix this for you. My case ... my wife had an affair .. destroyed me .. but she can not be the one to fix me even though she did the damage because she has no idea where the pain is nor how severe ... I have to fix my own vessel if I am going to avoid sinking down into the depths of the ocean.
Originally Posted By: skm0619
And......I also found out a few days ago that if I want to buy a new house, H will have to be either on the mortgage or the deed because we are still married, and it is considered community property because it would be bought with money that was acquired during the marriage. I am so upset about that because I do not want that, I want to buy it all on my own. My H never made one mortgage payment on our other house.....I did, and I know he isn't capable of making any mortgage payments on the new one either. I also paid for any and all repairs or upgrades that were done to the old house. Now, I have to put his name on my new one..
This leaves me in a situation I did not want to be in.
This is common, and something you will have to come to terms with or just hold off if you intend to D. Seems there is a scorecard forming here about all his short comings .. be careful keeping score as its a very destructive practice for any marriage let alone one with the issues we see here.
Skm .. you have to reach a place of peace. You have all these expectations of what he should and shouldn't do .. alluding to what he will be required to do later like you have his homework all laid out for the next several years. Thats not really how things work, nor how a marriage should be is it?
Set your boundaries, for you ... not for punishment. If what he is doing upsets you then calmly tell him. I need you to communicate with me, and if he does not do this then you go about your day and do your thing. You are in a serious push-pull cycle that needs to be broken preferably by you.
Caliguy is spot on, but wouldn't the first part of any reconnection process be to have expectations of some sort. If not, what are you reconnecting.
I feel your pain on the deed thing. I am living it at the moment. Mine won't sign the separation contract or file for divorce so I can't even count the money he gives me. Mine is a new business and I'm self-employed. Mortgage killer right there. Waiting to hear back from the one bank I think will work with me. H is going to get a piece of mind quite soon. Thankfully he works and his income is about 4x mine at this point. He is either going to sign that bloody contract or get the financing for me. If he does neither, I'm done playing nice and I file. Waiting is fine until it starts having consequences for you.
skm...they are both correct. What has helped me is to get to the point of zero expectations. My W is gone, pushing the D thru, with no signs of remorse, but for my own sanity I have to keep all of our interactions to NO expectations.
I know it is easy to say, but let go and let God guide you. Ask for peace daily and see if that helps. All it takes is faith the size of a mustard seed.
I know you want your M to take a turn for the better...trust me I know, but you can only do you. He says he wants to work on things, so have patience and see if he gets to where he needs to be...both for him and for your M. It will take time for sure.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
I'm sure it does seem like I have expectations from him, but in my defense I did not ask him to tell me he was going to call me or do a certain thing at a certain time, he did. At what point do I just stop taking what he says as truth and just think "he doesn't mean it when he says that"
This is not about me getting everything that I want, and when I don't, I get upset....this is about him having the integrity he speaks about, and him telling me very frequently that he wants to make changes in his behavior. I feel like he is saying one thing and doing another.
I feel like it is 2 steps forward and 10 steps back.
I didn't hang up on him. I did tell him goodnight before we hung up the phone.
I told him I would pick him up from the airport, so that is what I will do.
As far as the house is concerned......me wanting to purchase a house on my own, is not a score card. I work very hard and have paid for everything in relation to our previous house, etc. I asked my H to move back into that house a while ago with me, knowing I would continue to pay for it, and he did not want to do that......so WE sold it. I want to make a clean start with a new home, in my name. This does not mean he can not live in it with me, or cant call it his home too. He has even gone to look at houses with me, and I have taken into consideration things he has pointed out about certain things in the ones we have viewed. It simply means that financially it is my responsibility only. And, given the fact that H is in debt and his credit is not good, I don't want them to even consider him on the mortgage for interest rate purposes, etc.
I know I have things I still need to work on, and I am doing that daily.
Oh SKM, I feel your frustration and disappointment, I really do. I can imagine if we get to this stage there is the expectation of the relationship following along similar lines to when we first started dating. All the excitement and the endless phone calls. But I don't think it will ever be like that again because you already know each other.
I don't know, this all sounds very stressful!
Me - 47 H - 45 D-16 M - 6 years Separated - May 16
Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
I only say this because its all a long journey. What I think people fail to realize is it did not all start when BD happened ... in fact it all started most likely a year or three before that timeline, so just following timelines and the way things flow with MLC re connection and piecing also do not suddenly happen. Its gradual and in my case a touch and go or 2-3 in between before we really get to that point they are not only willing but able to give the LBS what but actually be able. They have not been capable of having a full relationship with anyone for some time so as we the LBS have to learn how to drop expectations and heal .. they also must learn how to have a healthy relationship with the fog no longer clouding anything.
As brutal as it all is ... you lead the way in this. You have to guide it ... push when needed and pull back and allow him to stack his own boxes when needed.
Seems he wants to do the right thing .. so he tells you he will do this and that .. but when the time comes he may very well just not be able to perform to that level just yet. Patience will be key for you.
I hear all of your words and do appreciate everything you say to me.
I just want some consistency from him, but I just don't feel like I am getting it. He is capable of being consistent when he reaps the benefits of it, but if he has to consider me, I feel like he is "half @ss" at doing things.
Am I ever going to be able to let this go and as SBJ says "let God"......I really don't know, but I hope so.
Last edited by job; 08/07/1709:20 AM. Reason: edited a word
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
I had a nice long response typed out and then POOF, IT WAS GONE!!!!
I am out of town right now enjoying some "me time" alone in the mountains with my dogs. I will respond in the next few days when I can bring myself to sit down and type out another response.
Okay, here goes again. Hope I can manage not to let this one disappear like the last response
Recently H and I had been spending time together, and things were going well. We are still not living together. I am in the process of looking for a new place to live as the place I am staying at now is pricey. The plan is to find a rental in the coming weeks because I am not able to find a place/area that I really want to buy a house in.
H has expressed on a few occasions that he wants to continue to work on things between the two of us, and he wants us to work on our M. He continues to go to a weekly Landmark meetings (those are his therapy sessions). He says he is learning to open up and express himself more while at those meetings, but does find it hard to do that with me. He says he feels like he isn't able to do that because he is so worried about what my response will be to it. Not really sure how to take that one???
We were supposed to be going out of town this week, but we had a disagreement a few days ago, and since that time he has gone back into his rabbit hole. He didn't respond when I would text, and he didn't call back either. When I did finally speak to him, he said he didn't respond because he "needed some space" and was "trying to figure out what he wanted to do." I didn't pry any further into that.
I called him one night to see if I could come and get the dogs so that I could take them with me, and he said he was not going to be home because he was helping "a friend" with some things at their house. I found out later when I asked him "what friend", that it was a single girl that he has had a friendship with for quite some time. I have had some issues with her and H and their "friendship" because they do meet up to chat "about life" periodically. He claims she knows that he is "trying to work things out with his marriage".....those are his words. But I feel like he doesn't have healthy boundaries in regard to her (or other females) and their friendship. He even went so far to tell me that he had to go and help her with some things at her house.......just the two of them were there. I asked him why he had to be the one to help her and he said he "didn't want to let her down." Now this is the same man who has crawled back into his rabbit hole, wont answer texts or phone calls from me..............but doesn't want to "let her down"
Another thing that has been on my mind recently is about 2 weeks ago, H said he is still learning to trust me again. Not really sure what that is all about. I asked him did he really want to try and work things out between the two of us, and his response was "yes, because it is the right thing to do".........OUCH!! I was sad to hear that response because for me what I heard was him saying he felt obligated, not because he thought his life would be better because of it, or that our M is worth working on.
When we are out in public he doesn't show me any affection. He doesn't tell me how he feels about me, or that he misses me when we go longer then expected without seeing each other. He hasn't said he loves me since before BD (which will be 2 years Nov 2017). He says he "has love for me" but I don't know if he is trying to tell me he loves me when he says that, or what?
When I did pick up the dogs, we spoke for some time about him going back into the rabbit hole and he said that he hates it when he acts that way. He wants to make things better and he doesn't know why he keeps acting this way. I did not yell and scream or show any sort of anger towards him, and for me that is something I am really working on. It doesn't help the situation at all, and I know that he crawls further into the hole when I do respond that way.
I tried to leave and shut the car door, but each time he would stand in the way of that. When I did finally say "I need to go" he leaned in to kiss my cheek and tell me to have a safe trip. I asked him why did he say and do that, his response was he is "trying to be sweet, and also show love for me."
I left Friday morning, and it is now Sunday evening. H has not called or texted to see if I made it safely, or find out where I ended up going. I have not texted him either. I am giving him his space that he said he needed.
I am enjoying being here in the mountains in Colorado. The weather is so nice compared to the 95 degree weather at my house. I plan to go on a few hikes in the next few days with the dogs. I am going to continue to enjoy this time away, because I will be back at work at the hospital soon enough
I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say
What does working on the marriage mean to him? Is it just being a friend and doing things w/you? Do you get the impression that he feels obligated to do things w/you or does he do them freely and actually enjoys spending time w/you?
He said he's trying to learn to trust you again? That should be the other way around, i.e., he should be trying to earn your trust once again. He's still in MLC and he's still talking much of the lingo that they spit out from time to time.
He needs to do the hard work in earning your trust and being transparent w/you in all things. At the moment, he is still operating a bit in the dark. My advice is to step back just a wee bit and give him as much space as he can choke on. He's still fumbling around in the dark and hasn't figure out that you are the one he needs to come home to. I would go a bit dim on him and not call him unless you absolutely need to.
I may be wrong, but he's no where near fully baked to recommit to a relationship w/you. He, in his mind, still looks to you as a friend and nothing more (at least that's what I'm sensing from your last posting.) He may be saying these things to you to keep you where he left you pre-crisis because he's not sure what he wants at the moment. I would continue moving forward and if he wakes up and starts to do the hard work of earning your trust again, then that's when I would seriously consider a new relationship w/him. For the moment...leave him be to figure himself out.
skm, great to hear from you. Hope you find the peace and tranquility you are looking for while you are in CO. It is so beautiful there. It has been too long since I have been there...I'm jealous that you are enjoying it.
Job sounds spot on about him still being in the MLC tunnel. Please know that we are still in your corner. All we can do when our spouses are still lost in their MLC journey is pray that God will guide them thru it...even if it doesn't lead them home. Us going out and GAL has to keep moving forward for our sanity and our own growth.
Keep moving one day at a time.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Hey skm, sounds like things are still very much up in the air for you at the moment. I don't have any wise words as I really can't relate at this time however IMHO I think he is using this landmark therapy to hide behind whenever he wants to make it look like you are the issue.
Also I don't think it is acceptable at this stage for him to be scurrying away every time you have a disagreement and because of that I agree with Job that he is not ready.
I hope you have a well deserved rest skm away from all the MLC madness!!
Me - 47 H - 45 D-16 M - 6 years Separated - May 16
Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
Omg... Why do you think, My W spends literally 15,000 within 5 months like WTF. And when kids with her they say Mommy purchase like 10 pair of sneakers and shoes she has bags and bags of store shopping in her closet. And only for herself doesn't buy anything. Grrrr... I agree feels like eternity with a WAW/MLC
At BD Lesbian marriage Me39,W36 S9,D9,S8 adopted all three Together almost 10yrs Bomb Drop - April 2017 W movedout - May,2017 OW June,2017 Currently 2018 Me40, W38 S10,D10,S9
Job, SBJ and Coly.......thank you so much for your words.
Job....thank you for asking questions that made me think. As far as spending time together..... H does do things freely. He is usually very willing to do whatever will make things easier for me. He comes to my place no matter what time of the day it is. I have offered to go to his instead, but he says he prefers to come to mine. He has spent the night with me several times, and even though my place is not convenient for him and his schedule (working out, going to work), he doesn't mind getting up earlier then his usual.
He does tell me that he enjoys spending time with me...and I believe him. One morning I was getting ready for work, he had the day off, and I was in the bathroom getting dressed, and the dogs were of course right there in the middle things. He looked at me and said "I miss this"......I asked him if he meant being there together as a "family" and doing what families do and he said "yes"......I was surprised to hear him say that.
As far as the trust thing......I think he is scared to really show his feelings for me, and I think that is why he says he is still trying to learn how to trust me. Long before me, H was hurt in a relationship....his gf cheated on him. He apparently was upset about it and got a tattoo in Chinese that meant trust. He said it was to remind him that trust is not something that he takes lightly. Sometimes I feel like it isn't me that he cant trust, but it is about him not being able to control things.
I also feel that he thinks that if he does show his emotions it will make him seem weak. Growing up in his parents (British) home he was taught that feelings and emotions were not to be expressed. He was taught keep that "British stiff upper lip"......you know that "keep calm and carry on" thing That does not work for me, and I honestly don't really know how much longer I can continue to be on the receiving end of him not being willing to show me how he feels.
I am definitely going to take your advice and "give him as much space as he can choke on"
Coly......I agree with you when you say that he is using this landmark therapy as some sort of crutch. He goes to these "meetings" every week and is able to share things in his life with people he has only known for a few months, but he won't share things with me. He shares at those meetings, but I am pretty sure that he doesn't really understand what it really means to share. It also has become a bit of a social outing for him too. The meetings are from 7pm to 10pm once a week. After every meeting a group of them go out to eat afterwards. He told me sometimes he is out until well after midnight. I can not imagine that they are sitting around talking about their feelings for all that time???
Another issue for me with Landmark, is that several of the people in the group are female, and when he gets to a place where he is confused about how to handle a situation with me, or wonders why he is acting a certain way, he reaches out to them instead of me. According to H, the meetings are not really interactive, just mostly listening. Now while that is better then nothing, I feel like he needs to have someone asking him questions about why he is behaving the way he is, or why he thinks it is okay to continue with this behavior. He should be going to see an IC, but he says he cant afford it.
And him running scared back into the hole......that is so childish in my mind, and I honestly dont know if that is something l am willing to put up with anymore. For me it shows he isn't willing to do the hard work and is more concerned about making himself feel better, or "ignore and it will go away" mentality.......that does not work for me.
SBJ.......Thank you for being in my corner. I hope you are doing as well as expected given what you have gone through recently.
I have really enjoyed my time here in Colorado. Went on a few hikes and the weather was perfect. Definitely gave me plenty of time to think.
I am leaving in the morning to head back home Still nothing form H.
Last edited by job; 09/21/1711:52 PM. Reason: Added link to new thread
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
